USAGOLD Gold Discussion Forum Archive

Electronic reproduction sourced from
Topazcon-currency opinion.#13367307/01/05; 01:44:16

It must be something in the water as this fellow "bloke" looks similarly on "things" as mois.

BIG day ahead for Ag, I have great expectations for Silver from now to Bastille Day ...$25/25%

Buck currently on a binge. Deciding which is worse for S/Market, higher Oil or higher Buck?
One things for sure, a combination of both is disasterous.

We watch!

BoilermakerKrugman on CNOOC/UNOCAL offer#1336747/1/05; 07:30:55

"Unocal sounds, in other words, like exactly the kind of company the Chinese government might want to control if it envisions a sort of "great game" in which major economic powers scramble for access to far-flung oil and natural gas reserves. (Buying a company is a lot cheaper, in lives and money, than invading an oil-producing country.) So the Unocal story gains extra resonance from the latest surge in oil prices.

If it were up to me, I'd block the Chinese bid for Unocal. But it would be a lot easier to take that position if the United States weren't so dependent on China right now, not just to buy our I.O.U.'s, but to help us deal with North Korea now that our military is bogged down in Iraq."

China has a treasury full of $ and a national oil company to shop with it. The US has no national oil company with which to buy deep storage oil. US is using the military to protect/obtain what China can buy peacefully.

BoilermakerHounds getting zapped#1336757/1/05; 08:01:04

Hey Gandie, looks like someone put the electric collars on our poor hounds. Must be Friday before a three day (US) weekend. We need to figure out how to remove the batteries from those collars ;). Have a great weekend all you buggers out there
SurvivorWild Move#1336767/1/05; 09:16:42

Can anyone remember when we last saw spot swing more than U$6.00? In less than 3 hours, spot has moved down about U$10.00. A good day for bargain hunters!

Incidentally, the folks at INO must have started the holiday early. The spot quote at the top of this page is asleep.

- Survivor

mikalFate bearing down on bureaucrats and state agents#1336777/1/05; 09:47:34

The Bureaucrats' Song And Dance by Gary North
"The looming bankrupcy of the federal government has it's advantages..."
Gary expertly draws some current portraits of entitlement programs on the precipice and why "the welfare chickens are coming home to roost". Obviously, by extension, the rest of the world will reverberate with similar repercussions.
Not surprising that gold is a household word in most of the world.

GoldiloxWIld Move#1336787/1/05; 09:59:17

@ Survivor,

THe last big down day - a few months ago was -13.

The "$6 rule" is more applicable to up moves.

Increasing volatility may see this disappear in both directions.

slingshotRally Monkey#1336797/1/05; 09:59:25

Thanks, goldilox.

SurvivorGary North#1336807/1/05; 10:04:28

Is this the same Gary North who "expertly" missed predicting the impact of Year 2000 by about 19 country miles? If so, anything he writes should be taken with a grain of salt.

- Survivor

GoldiloxRally Monkey#1336817/1/05; 10:14:22

@ Slingshot,

As a "died in the wool" Giants fan, I find that video decidedly NOT FUNNY!

I'm off to Petco tonight to see if MY guys can keep their rally going against the division leader.

Go Gold and Giants - they both start with a resounding G!

slingshotOOOOOPS!#1336827/1/05; 10:25:11

Goldilox. I was trying to inject some humor into this gold setback. Did not think it was about the Giants. Well I do get to put my foot in my mouth on ocasion

GoldiloxY2K scare#1336837/1/05; 10:25:44

@ survivor,

Even a lot of computer pros were taken in by the Y2K scare. Much effort was expended to repair sleazy MS-based code, but little major damage resulted.

UNIX and MAC users knew their SW would not "blow up", but the real issue was whether data base programmers had encoded two-digit or four-digit "date codes" in their record processing algorithms.

It was one of the single most "sales scams" of the internet bubble, and the excess replacement activity also fueled a bubble of HW sales that bit the manufacturers in the A$$ in 2001-2.

As a retired storage professional, I remember incredibly obtuse messages even within the industry, so I cannot fault analysts who tried to decode those messages.

Bubble, bubble, toil, and trouble!

GoldiloxMonkey#1336847/1/05; 10:34:34

@ Slingshot,

Well, maybe a (not so) solid hold on 4th place in the division has me just a little "sensitive"!

Also maybe, the fact that I live only 60 miles from Anaheim and 460 miles from "home plate".

Just glad I don't have the typical "anger management" issues of some of today's players!


mikal@Goldilox#1336857/1/05; 10:42:05

Re: "increasing volatility"
Crude oil +$1.80
Is this related to the rumored "terrorist" threat? It's consistent with the past couple weeks in any case.
CRB has also bolted up. Metals markets close early today?

Gandalf the WhiteOOPS -- The dogs took the day OFF !#1336867/1/05; 10:42:45

AND, the "Banksters" on the COMEX will have given Sir GAB a new stack of RED "O"s at the $428 level on the P&F GOLD chart !
They sure have fun when the no one is looking, don't they ?
THANKS for the "early" 4th of JULY Birthday present !
YELLOW is now a gift at this price !

KnallgoldPOG dive#1336877/1/05; 10:52:02

Maybe Greenspan raised rates just to bash POG-what was this story about a huge Goldcall sitting at 445?The weight of paper...

Unfortunately Gold hasn't become a bargain in sFR. as it measily dropped ~100Fr/kilo. as the $ is advancing further.

CoBra(too)PM's Tanking - Last Hurrah?#1336887/1/05; 11:04:58

- For the managers of "Managed Markets Inc.", a subsidiary of your friendly TSY's ESF, dubbed -Exchange Stability For- the needs of Uncle Sam, the FED and its international minion CB's still clinging to Bretton Woods II. A proposition of fooling me thrice - and yes, THAT may be the problem!

... Or is it the upcoming Independence Day?

A country who is now dependent on much of the rest of the worlds savings to function may have lost a lot of what the founders fought for - including monetary affairs... and Independence, or has the meaning of the word undergone some hedonistic changes as well?

Happy long weekend to all friends - cb2

GoldiloxDog Days#1336897/1/05; 11:09:15

@ Gandy,

The ESF boyz seem to have given the pups a "play day".

Not too much "Independence Day" partying now, as we need them to resume "chomping at the bit" Tuesday morn!

TownCrierPaper#1336907/1/05; 11:18:36

When market players sense that their bonds, for example, have rolled into junk status with fears that the contracts (which is effectively what they are) won't be delivering as promised, the market response is a selloff in the price. You can probably recall many times that you witnessed various classes of bonds suffer a selloff (peerhaps some defaulting to worthlessness) even as the underlying currency held its ground or gained.

As time goes on, given the tightness of the physical gold metal market compared to the vast over-abundance of the corresponding derivatives (especially the price-setting futures market), it shouldn't surprise us to eventually reach days (or an irreversing trend) where the market's confidence (and corresponding price) plunges with regard to the highly leveraged and physically undeliverable promissory paper gold futures contracts.

Given the nature of each, futures contracts and metal, mere contracts are certainly NOT a true proxy for the benefits and economic bargaining power conveyed by actual metal ownership. However, until the market matures enough to recognize this, the price of the undefaultable metal will draft along passively in the wake of the dubious futures market and its price determinations. Hence, to anyone who currently understands the inherent difference in value between tangible ownership versus paper promises, days like these in which the futures have sold off present themselves as attractive opportunities to buy up the benefits of physical gold metal at nearly par with the deep discounting being applied by the market to the corresponding derivative pile of futures contracts.

Today's price action appears very clearly a NY COMEX futures phenomenon. A look at the daily chart shows that an early morning rising price promptly turned downward upon the 8:30am ET open of COMEX trading, and the downward path steeply accelerated as concurrent traders in the London gold market closed shop for the weekend.

To put a fine point on it, a question presents itself. When promissory bonds sell off, do you suddenly lose desire to bring home your paycheck? Probably not. Thus, if similar promissory futures contracts sell off, it does not stand to reason that you should be shaken in your drive to bring home tangible savings.

If you choose gold metal, and know what its unique benefits are, you will not be so easily rocked out of your lifeboat by (a superficial appearance of) turbulent waters.


USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Don't forget...#1336917/1/05; 11:28:23

Details on this allotment of Wilhelm I gold German 20 marks (minted 1871 - 1888). Get them while they last.
SurvivorNorth and Y2K#1336927/1/05; 11:45:20

@Goldilox -

Yes, I do know what you mean. I was (still am) one of those 'pros'. In fact, I had the unenviable task of Y2K Coordinator for our medium-sized office.

We did a lot of research on the 'net and elsewhere. There was some well-informed material posted that helped us greatly with the analysis and remediation of our susceptible office systems. By comparison, Gary North was a bearded man in robe standing on the corner with an "End Of The World" picket sign. To make it worse, he left all that erroneous dribble up for months after the non-event.

OK, 'scuze my rant. Its Friday! (And BARGAIN DAY for any PM shoppers this afternoon!)

- Survivor

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1336937/1/05; 12:29:59">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Friday Market Excerpts

July 1 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures fell more than $8 an ounce Friday to finish 3% lower for the week after the Federal Reserve raised U.S. interest rates.

With a holiday weekend looming in the U.S., traders also looked ahead to next week's Group of Eight summit in Scotland.

Gold contracts for August delivery closed at $428.80, down $8.30, on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Metals futures trading on the exchange closed early Friday and will remain closed Monday for the July 4th holiday.

"The Fed activity has really pulled the rug out from gold for some reason," said Kevin Kerr, president of Kerr Trading International. On Thursday, Fed chief Alan Greenspan and other central bank policymakers did as expected, voting to boost the central bank's target for short-term interest rates by a quarter of a percentage point, to 3.25%, and signaled that further rate hikes are likely in the pipeline.

"Real speculation will begin with the next few meetings as rates reach 3.50%," said Thomas Hartmann, an analyst at Altavest Worldwide Trading, in a note to clients. "Greenspan & Co. appear to want to reach this plateau with little fanfare or worry, keeping their measured pace dull and simple, lulling the market in step."

But "questions about the U.S. economy will ultimately be faced in the coming months," he said. For now, the "inability of prices to hold above $440 puts gold on a downward tilt in the near term," Hartmann said.

The latest drop in gold is "not so much the holiday as the general skittish nature of gold bugs who have been burned by faded rallies before, including me," said Kerr.

"Seasonally, there is usually a top made about here so [the price decline is] absolutely no surprise," said John Stafford, editor of Stafford's Investment Strategy Letter, adding: "I always buy on days like this."

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

TopazVoyeuristically ...#1336947/1/05; 12:46:23

...Friday's rarely disappoints eh?
Similar action in DX to the Dec/Jan rollover which ignited Buck and sent it on it's current charge North (not Gary ;-)

Can we perhaps now (again) cite repats as the DX driver ...methinks Yes however the nett Dollar amount this time through is a good bit less (given the higher relative Dollar exchange) and bodes ill for E/O/Quarter reporting.

Bond took a hit ...but there again, it stopped at a tad shy of 4.3% yield.
Rubicon or Maginot? Gee, now that's a poser!
I don't think we're looking at the BIG dump here given the way it stopped but, 1 day we'll look at this 4.3% level and collectively declare "Rubicon".

Silver ...Oh Boy, it's got some work to do now, but with 2300 contracts through the turnstiles and a nice uptick on LeaseRates, the glory days are still ahead. ID thru BD will see it SHINE imo.

Gold ...BumWad 'till August. (good term B-G/Span)

CamelDollar strength#1336957/1/05; 14:49:11

Don't mean to be a wet blanket, but maybe the strength in the dollar is due to the increase in $ interest rates, which are now considerably above those for the Euro.
BoilermakerHUI signals gold a buy#1336967/1/05; 17:07:25

Gold was down about 2% today. The HUI was marginally higher.

The folks who run the gold market have become all too obvious. They take down (short) the metal whenever an opportunity or need arises and cover their shorts on their shares at the same time. Conversely, they let the metal run higher and start shorting the shares just before another takedown.

Today they covered their share shorts. They're milking the black box hedge funds and poor saps who don't know the drill. It's like having a license to steal. We can take advantage of this. While most of us (I think) are not short term players we can see what's happening and take advantage with our incremental investing when oppotunities arise.

SundeckAufall Friday...#1336977/2/05; 00:19:19

An "aufall" Friday, while the dollar seems to have resumed its role as the best of the bad lot among currencies...

Makes one wonder if the US dollar has got itself into a self-sustaining updraft...a kind or "runaway Greenspan effect".

While-ever the US currency is rising against other currencies and interest rates are rising as well, it makes it more desireable for foreigners to buy and hold US paper interest-bearing assets, since they gain on both rising interest rates (short-term rates, at least) and a benificial exchange rate...and the more they buy, the more the dollar rises and the more appealing the whole deal seems and so on and on it goes. Those already long-term holders of US paper assets, seeing the exchange rate "improving", as well as interest rates rising, will similarly be less anxious to diversify out of their US assets as they see their losses why not hold a bit longer and maybe they will narrow still more?

The only fly in the ointment is that the more the dollar rises, the cheaper imports (to the US) become and the more expensive (to foreigners) exports become; so the worse the trade deficit becomes -- unless the US corners the market on some dream new industry that everyone wants and no-one else can produce... That is, capital inflows truly manifest themselves in much greater productivity of things that America can actually sell to the rest of the world because the rest of the world wants them... At the moment, capital inflows are growing the US economy internally in things that the rest of the world does not particularly want, like US housing and excessive military equipment and hubris. It does not seem likely that some dream new export industry is going to emerge, so there is the risk of a runaway trade deficit.

A way out? Well in the absence of the wonderful new industry that Uncle Sam dreams up, that everyone wants and no-one else can produce, one way out might be for the US to surrender its role as producer and custodian of the World's reserve currency. Surely the days of Bretton Woods are over! The US is no longer the industrial powerhouse of a shattered world. Today it is the (conventional) military powerhouse of the world, and maybe the global media-spin powerhouse, but its old self has gone. OK, it still produces pretty good military systems that may be in demand abroad, but sales are tightly restricted to "favoured" clients, and it is inconceivable that the US can close its trade gap on military sales alone. But instead of addressing the reserve currency issue a broad, systemic aproach), there is a beat-up on China (narrow, nibbling-the-edges approach) to float its currency. OK, that may go some way, but even Al Greenspan acknowledges that it will do little to address the trade deficit which the US carries with ALL its major trading partners.

What about if contracts for the purchase of oil, and gas and iron ore and wheat and coal etc. were more and more written in Euros and Yen and Renminbi and Aussie dollars, Swedish krona, Brazilian real, etc? This should greatly reduce the demand for dollars and thereby lower its price in the FX markets. Those countries acquiring an excess of other currencies could then re-invest them in paper assets of the countries of their denomination (providing a capital boost for expansion which would be truly global; providing balance and fairness to the concept of "globalisation"), or exchange them in the currency markets for whatever currency they wanted. In other words, why the Heck in this day and age of instant computation and electronic transfer should we all be dealing with stone-age transactions involving the US dollar?

Is there any merit in this rant or should I go back and read my Economics 101 book? (Or perhaps rewrite the Economics 101 book!)



SundeckMissing parenthesis...#1336987/2/05; 00:30:27

Sorry...there is an opening parenthesis missing in my last message.

The corrected sentence in the fifth paragraph is:

"But instead of addressing the reserve currency issue (a broad, systemic aproach), there is a beat-up on China (narrow, nibbling-the-edges approach) to float its currency. "


geA Eulogy for the CRB by Ed Steer #1336997/2/05; 00:37:22

KnallgoldPOG8 leak?#1337007/2/05; 01:34:08

Price of Gold drops 10bucks going into G8 meeting-coincidence or not will be seen next week,usually POG drops after such meetings (well,except the one in Washington back then).What has been complained in a newsletter I subscribe to,that in the last months the wrong people have been bullish on Gold.And the performance of the Goldshares have been miserable to put it mildly.This still IS Another Goldmarket developing,even though the Gold revaluation did not take place.But the case for Gold HASE NEVER BEEN BETTER THAN NOW!

The interest level in the US is getting interesting-if 3.5% will be sufficient for the real intentions behind the rate rises?Or,can't it be raised further without going to ring bells regarding housing bubble/economy freezing etc?

Dollar Bill.,.#1337017/2/05; 03:36:53

Sundeck, That is quite a bit more advanced than ec 101 I would say!
I figure Israel will attack Iran on sept 11. So then, we have oil prices going where? So, hmmm, instant inflation, which will I suppose, cause a downturn for the global economy, lessening coming inflation in some commodities, products, despite fiat buildup.
So, religious war......I will cut back my reading of various sources to lessen my stress. I dont watch news at this point, that will have to continue. Someone posted recently, a study of high oil price impact on the us economy. In that situation, dollar strenghtens? CB's rally around the dollar because it is an emergency? World blames Israel, and of course the Admin. because Israel used US weapons, and US didnt stop thier planes.
Change ripples the world, gold goes up, breaks 500 I say.
IranianAmericans, how will they react? This is a wild card.
Some will probably do local harm. TIme to move to OZ?
What else happens when Israel attacks Iran? There is no way they wont. Sunni muslems dont have nice things to say about the shiite muslems. I have been invited to Iran. Ticket paid by a freind. He is from Tehran. He is a relative by marriage. He depresses me in only one way. He is a doctor, very smart in that way, yet his understanding of US is a combination of news sources from that region, and american leftist anti US media. Talking to him, I regret I am the only voice he gets that points out the good stuff. And how many educated doctors are among the Iranian folks in the US?
And he is in this condition? And americans are so carelessly inflameing him? Oh boy, we shall see.
What will happen in europe?
But, will destructions stop the big boys? The CB's?
They will hold the center, but......oh boy, Afganistan and Iraq were, well, nice and tidy. Number three? I dont want to see it. I suspect the forum will grow.

mikalSigns of gold magma #1337027/2/05; 07:23:05

Gold's changing fortune - - June 1, 2005
mikalDate Correction#1337037/2/05; 07:27:53

{Date of below article}
July 1, 2005 - Time flies when you're having fun. Maybe that magma is getting closer than I thought...

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A world of gold at your fingertips...#1337057/2/05; 10:15:06">gold -- a global calling card
GoldiloxForeign "understanding" of US#1337067/2/05; 10:51:56

@ $Bill.

Your quote: "He is a doctor, very smart in that way, yet his understanding of US is a combination of news sources from that region, and american leftist anti US media."

Would that "anti-US leftist media" be FOX, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, or the newly NeoCon administered PBS? Or just anyone who suggests serious investigation into the covert perpetrators of 911, and the $millions made by the still unidentified source of airline puts on Sept 10? The IRS knows every tiny stock and option trade I ever made, so please don't feed me the line that these traders couldn't be identified by their broker, if anyone in power wanted wanted them to be.

Our "Reichstag Fire" has been successfully swept under the rug. We have been so dumbed down by public administering of drugs, corporate control of organized religion, and "ideological news media" that it will unfortunately take a second event before anyone wakes up and asks why.

They spirited away the evidence from the first attack before any "investigation" could be started, and found some ghost camel-jockies to blame for gold-medal aerobatics into the WTC and an 8-foot wide hole in the Pentagon supposedly made by a populated 24-ft wide plane that left no plane or human debris at the site. Why were 24 Mossad agents who were gleefully video-taping the 911 attack deported with "diplomatic immunity" before any questioning as to where they got foreknowledge of the event? Does it bother anyone that 8 of the named dead hijackers are alive and well in Paris, having never been in the US during 2001?

We were told "the admin never even thought of using planes for weapons", but Cheney was in the situation room conducting a "military exercise" of that very scenario at the time of the event. The 911 "investigation" was conducted by the very same crooked lawyers and politicians that hushed up "Whitewater" and "Watergate".

There hasn't been a "leftist media" in the US since the LA Free Press went out of business 20 years ago, unless you count the libertarian internet press as "leftist". What was "moderate-centrist" 20 years ago is considered radical left today, as TPTB have censored or demonized everything else. Every TV, radio, and major newspaper is owned by about 10 very rich families.

In fact, for his loyal admin support, Michael Powell single-handedly dismantled the media monopoly rules and handed Ruppert Murdock up to 45% media ownership in any locale - and that's just one of the 10 families.

As an example, I submit the last Presidential election, where the "centrist" Democrats were demonized by your "so-called leftist" press, to be replaced by corporate-shill Kerry so we could choose between two "skull and bones" candidates with nearly identical backing. Clinton and Kerry leftists? What a laugh! That's like suggesting Hitler and Mussolini were to the "left" of Franco.

I don't always agree with the minimally remaining "leftist" press, but if they are ignored completely, we will all be sporting the RFID bracelets of your NWO sooner than we'd prefer. The current corporate-owned media is as "bought and paid for" as was IG Farbin 60 years ago, and expects us to dutifully "line up" for our daily dose of ideologic BS.

Debate, deduction, and dissent are dinosaurs in this political environment. USA Gold is to be highly commended for offering a forum for debate that has long ago left the sleeping mainstream behind.

GoldiloxMiners' performance#1337077/2/05; 10:59:53

@ KnallGold,

Your quote,

"And the performance of the Goldshares have been miserable to put it mildly."

is certainly reflective of their long-term performance since last year's premature run-up, but I interpret the 10-15% recent gains and strength during Friday's PM hit as a sign of stronger investment interest in the miners.

Not a recomendation, of course, but the last few months have demonstrated a lot more public and private interest in all things "golden".

Whether that is from increased instabilty in other markets, or real interest in gold, the effect should be about the same.

Gandalf the WhiteLook Sir GAB !!!!! (I too thought that it was very unlikely !)#1337087/2/05; 11:17:11$GOLD,PWTADANRBO[PA][D][F1!3!!!2!20]&pref=G

BUT, there they are --- the Stacked RED "700" on the P&F Gold chart !
I take this as a SIGN that Gold will be priced at US$700 within the next few YEARS !
(PLEASE note that there is still ANOTHER space for downward movement, while not BREAKING the UP CHANNEL !)

GoldiloxEd Steer Article on CRB#1337097/2/05; 11:18:21

@ ge,

This new NeoCRB should help the manipulators "steer" (pun intended) their financial boat more precisely, as their CPI and PPI are rapidly losing all credibilty. Even Bill Seidman, CNBC's favorite GS and Snow shill, on Friday stammered his way through an incredibly weak explanation of why inflation can still be considered "tame".

Seidman's "commentary" is taking on the tone of Wilfred Brumley's "Ads for the Alzheimer's afflicted".

"if you're not buying your Medicare drugs from XXX, you might be paying too much . . . and we'll deliver them right to your door!"

GoldiloxP&F#1337107/2/05; 11:20:23

@ Gandalf,

if they add another red zero, will it portend POG 7000?

Count me in!

ge@ Goldilox#1337117/2/05; 12:15:19

NeoCRB?... Great Word!... Lol!!....
GoldiloxThanks ge#1337127/2/05; 12:51:22

I made it up "all by myself".

I'm feeling my oats today, as I had seats behind the plate last night while my Gints stumbled their way to a win with unearned runs and great D against the division leading home team and their Cy Young candidate Jake Peavy!

Now we're only 8 games out!

"I see Orange People!" LOL

TopazGold, reflections.#1337137/2/05; 16:14:16

As the Jury is still out on whether this Dollar rally is "the real thing" or simply a Bear-Market "correction", it might be worth visiting the Golds recent history to perhaps gain some insight into future price developments.

These last few years have been witness to several structural changes in the GoldMarket including : -

Nymex "access" providing "round-the-clock" market participation.
Rothschilds quietly stepping aside from market-making duties in London.
The development of Chinese Gold trading infrastructure.
Similar moves in India, Dubai etc.
Willingness of mini-CB's to dis-hoard, acting as "shelf-stocker" on the Bullion front ...up until recently.
BoE Gold sales.
Swiss tranche ...1T/Day for 4odd years complete.
There are more, but these will suffice.

When above developments are seen in the context of recent price movements, is it not quite apparent that : -

Price discovery Baton has transferred for London Spot to Comex Future.
Gold "Spot-price" determinant is now largely a derivative.
Comex "delivery" will be more and more associated with price "spikes"...likewise, non-delivery with price drops.

Whilst Ari et al insist that REAL Gold shoppers don't bother with Comex, the trend indicates "price" is being impacted more by them ...and, given the compounding 1Tplus/Day structural defecit, we could expect to see volitility in goldpricing increase "in-sync" with Comex delivery window.


Topazfurther...#1337147/2/05; 16:32:02

...indications are that it's taking longer and longer each Month to "clear the decks" on delivery at Comex both with Gold AND Silver (witness May Ag and June Au)
Auguring bloody good for Bullion holders methinks.

TownCrierTopaz, awesome post#1337157/2/05; 18:48:11

All of it. Thanks.


Cavan ManHi Topaz#1337167/2/05; 19:14:40

Par excellence SIR!
GoldiloxFSN Saturday Broadcast#1337177/2/05; 19:17:48

Jim's guest today is none other than Dr. Boom, Gloom, and Doom, Marc Faber for a no holds barred discussion of infla-defla, wealth disparity, bubbles, asset inflationary cycles, etc.

When Jim said, "the CPI is skewed", Marc replied, "I think the CPI is a total fraud!"

Get your cup o' Joe ready for this one!

Goldilox4th Hour Guest Expert - FSN Broadcast#1337187/2/05; 19:23:01

Adding a fouth hour to the show, Puplava also chats with Frank Barbera, CMT in an interview entitled

"Update on the Gold Market, A New Gold Index, & Why You Better Own Gold"

Might better brew a whole pot!

Dollar Bill.,.#1337197/2/05; 21:05:15

Goldilox, I think your economic homework is highly respectable. Your political homework is not at the same level.
Your analysis of economic subtleties is astute, your analysis of media bias, on either side, is not of the same caliber.
What we do here really, is allow each other to be our teachers. There is no other place on the web or otherwise, that I personally allow myself to be taught by folks that wander all over the map day after day. The only time I got ticked off here, was when some guy came in and insulted posters, that might have had a weakness where he was pointing, but he clearly didnt care for them, and I do.
Usually I mostly read, and I dont want to alter anyone. Last week the moon must have been full.
What media, politicians are doing, that is one thing, it is open forum, so......
how would you alter the constitution.
how do you see us in 5 years?
how do you view the church state issue?
what is the goal of any group that you view as the smartest?
what is the definition of obscenity?
what is the boundry of any personal limits from a supreme court perspective? now or in your view, the goal.
what was your post about the nwo?
Do any of these look fun enough to discuss?

The Invisible HandWho's laughing at Gary N.? And at Trail Guide?#1337207/2/05; 21:25:53,6903,1519745,00.html
Oil 'will hit $100 by winter'
Worst-ever crisis looms, says analyst · Surging demand to keep prices high
Heather Stewart, economics correspondent
Sunday July 3, 2005
The Observer
Oil prices could rocket to $100 within six months, plunging the world into an unprecedented fuel crisis, controversial Texan oil analyst Matt Simmons has war,6903,1519747,00.html
Brussels plans 'dramatic' overhaul of CAP
Nick Mathiason
Sunday July 3, 2005
The Observer
The European Commission is planning a radical overhaul of the Common Agricultural Policy. The CAP currently costs European taxpayers £30 billion.
In the midst of an attack on the controversial EU farm subsidy regime from Tony Blair, Brussels is attempting to reassert its political leadership of the 25-member trading bloc by putting on the table proposals which could dramatically alter the CAP.
Despite losing referendums in France and Holland the EU's higher echelons have a comeback plan: to promote the single currency, writes Martin Jay in Brussels.
The Commission has already started to spend at least €16 million (£10.7m). According to a confidential report, there are now plans to increase this budget. The move follows indications from the European Central Bank in June that poor growth in eurozone countries could be partly attributed to the single currency.
The campaign is targeted at the Danes and Swedes as well as Brits, who are particularly singled out as they 'have a very low knowledge of the euro'.


Curse of cotton,6903,1519764,00.html
EU policy on agriculture shackles Africa, but the US also hands billions to its farmers.

Hilary Benn: 'Ending unfair subsidies is a moral imperative',6903,1519762,00.html

Georgia's legacy of slavery,6903,1519763,00.html
US cotton is dumped in Africa, pushing commodity prices down and ruining countries like Burkino Faso and Benin.

YGMWho's laughing at Gary N.? And at Trail Guide?#1337217/2/05; 21:40:06

Noone should be for if they are they won't get the last laugh. IMHO
North may have made a major faux pas on Y2K, but he knows Gold & economics, and has vision beyond the mainstream fools. Trail Guide & Another will be shown to be prophetic and somewhat ahead of their time, again IMHO.

YGMAlso in North Defense on Computer Glitch's#1337227/2/05; 21:47:45

Much of what North foresaw as a result of Y2K computer meltdown could come to pass any time in the future thru virus's or other unkowns. Even a disruption of a few weeks could spell major problems thru-out our computer controled world. Mankinds complacency in this day and age is rampant & tantamount to stupidity.

Your post (133706) was awesome and obviously the outcome of some serious thought. It always stands out that fellow Americans will very seldom OPENLY appluad or agree with anything said against the State --even if it is true & needs said. How sad. It only perpetuates ALL that needs changing. That said there is a similar inclination here in OZ but to a much lesser degree. The Prime Minister is NOT placed on a pedestal & is fair game as are ALL our politicians.

$Bill is a bit of a lost cause -he will not SEE what is staring him in the face.Nice guy - -but. And please Bill do not even consider coming here to Australia. Help! There are enough here with blinkers on as is - - -

GoldiloxNWO#1337247/2/05; 23:52:07

Hi $Bill,

I'll gladly debate you any day, as you tend to approach debate in an open, adult manner.

Some of your NWO ideas hit some interesting chords with me, so let me return your serve.

From my EXTENSIVE research, it seems to me that the NWO and PAX Americana are two birds of a feather. More often than not, I am asking for "investigation" to see if something really is true when preponderant evidence points to strong possibilities. I prefer truth over ideology, as I have had my fill of the Swaggarts, Robertsons, and Cheneys who tell me what I MUST believe in order to cement their political strongholds. The majority of people say "I can't believe they would do that", but refuse to examine any evidence whatsoever.

As Marc Faber remarked in his Puplava interview today, spreading Democracy by bankrupting the middle class is very dangerous, as witnessed in Weimar Germany. Hitler was "duly elected" by a really PO'd middle class. They saw that the Allies had made it impossible for them to have any chance at a reasonable post-war existence and chose a leader that would help them take it back! Bad gamble, but the Palestinians have been living in Israeli-Imposed concentration camps for three generations, and it is not hard for me me to understand "suicide" insurgencies under those conditions.

Heck, the US forefathers revolted over a 5% TAX. We give up >50% for "security" and "services", and are usually too afraid to even grumble a little.

Dr. Marc also commented on the UNOCAL-CNOOC deal.

China wants to purchase the Asian assets of UnoCal (approx 70% of their holdings) and resell the Western assets to Western companies. The US media wants us to believe that China intends to own all the 76 stations in America, the furthest from the truth, but it is what I have come to expect from Murdoch, et al.

Not to be too personal, but nay-sayers often fault my "research" and then fail to deliver anything that contradicts the evidence. I've read the 911 report, in all its inconsistencies, and also taken the time to read many of the the alternatives. Have you? Or are you accepting the admin's story - lock, stock, and barrel with no verification? I would say "Trust, but VERIFY"!

I would be the first to suggest that the 911-truth people don't have the answers all correct, but I would also be the first to want their mostly legitimate questions answered truthfully and completely. Don't just brand them as unpatriotic for having the cajones to question authority. The questions are too good to be completely whitewashed by "personalities and politics".

As to who are my teachers?

I learn by reading and listening to others, but then run what they say through the wringer to filter out the self-serving BS as best I can. No person or historical record is infallible, and I especially won't waste my time with people who try to convince me that all the ancient writings are crap except "one". Having studied how politically that book came about (through Roman emperor's edicts and purges), I have to call it to task, as well. Especially since none of the protagonists ever appear in any legitimate historian's accounts of the same time period.

I studied science in my youth - chemistry and physics - at no less than Teller Tech (UC Livermore Lab). I have lately taken to McCanney, not so much for his political stance as his very reasonable scientific research. Bit I also admire his willingness to call NOAA and NASA out on the carpet for their worship of 19th century scientific dogma and their complete fleecing of the public.

The NWO, as you call it, will stop at nothing to control everything! There is no reason for us to ignore alternative energy - not just in practice, but even in the universities, who fail or otherwise ostracize anyone who attempts to bypass traditional energy technology.

Well maybe one reason. Maintaining control over the masses and the "status quo".

GoldiloxRe: North, Sinclair, and other futurre views#1337257/3/05; 00:02:39

@ YGM and TIH,

Timing is everything, and as George Ure reminds us about the WEBBOTs, interpretation and timing can get one into the soup very quickly. I am certain that Sinclair's fundamentals are strong, but his predictions have not been completely accurate.

I try to stick to the priciples and recognize the difference between stating fundamentals and practicing precognition.

Many of the fundamentals espressed by legitimate analysts are unassailable, but translating them into future events requires enough extrapolation to mess up the algorithm badly.

GoldiloxWorld view#1337267/3/05; 00:14:05

@ Pritcho,

Thanks for the support, but I would encourage you not to "write off" anyone. People can only understand your point if you attempt to give them the "best possible view" of what you see.

If you are gonna give up reaching out, those who have been afraid to judge the evidence will never be persuaded to take just one more peek!

All of us have labored through incomplete and often "maliciously altered" facts, and come to different conclusions. Sometimes a new body of evidence will reopen a line of thought, and sometimes not. You never know what will fall from a tree until you give it a little shake!

GoldiloxSupport our Troops#1337277/3/05; 00:53:09


Some people say that it is unpatriotic to question the war, or that it undermines the troops in the field. Those who make this claim understand neither history, democracy, patriotism, nor the deepest meaning of supporting our troops. Europeans historically came to refer to war as 'the sport of kings' because of the capriciousness with which monarchs engaged in it, seeking its spoils and its glory while risking millions of other people's lives in that pursuit.

Mindful of that history, America's Founders sought to introduce a system of checks and balances against such concentrated power. They wanted the people and their representatives to ask tough questions and choose for themselves whether to support or reject a president's policies, including those concerning war and peace. Americans who habitually revere the Founders would do well to remember that Jefferson said "Dissent is the highest form of patriotism".


Professor David Green of Hofstra Univ. in NY suggests that "support" for troops requires a lot more than yellow ribbons on our SUVs and mindless subservience to the media and admin rants, only to have them revealed as "emperor's clothing" not long afterward. The best way to "support the troops" this 4th of July is to take the time to be fully informed of their mission and their plight, and make sure your representatives know that you are watching!

arbyhPaul Krugman...economist, writer, teacher#1337287/3/05; 01:04:25

I just wanted to briefly tell you about who I have been reading for conterpoint to govt spin. He is an economist and a teacher at Princeston Univ. He wrote a book that I really enjoyed and helped fill in the blanks as to motivations for some of the BS sold as truth....again his name ..Paul Krugman.
Interesting that an economist can print truth because they don't rely on interviews for life's blood and future the way many news people must. They can just examine historical facts, causes, effects, and who said what to determine truth from spin.

Topaz@Dollar Bill.#1337297/3/05; 01:08:43

Au contraire Billy boy, you're most welcome in MY Oz!
Dont forget to pack some Gold (we don't have any!)...some USDollars (you'd be surprised what they buy downunder) and a compass (very hard to get used to Southern Hemisphere if you're an "outdoors" type).
Don't bring your Guns ...since young Marty Briant ran amok in Tazzie, we're not allowed to have Firearms. Of course the Port Arthur massacre was a CIA NWO ploy to disarm the populace ...but we all know that!
It IS curious though that in Switzerland they encourage Gun ownership in households. Must be the "controlled" media NOT reporting all the mass murders that happen there as a result of same.

I've put a Lunar Link up so you and anyone else for that matter can time your future rants with the Cycle and if necessary, seek absolution by deferring to the "lunatic" within ;-)

C-Man and TC ...thanks!

arbyhSmedley Butler#1337307/3/05; 01:11:25

Remember good old Smedley Butler? USMC Major General...2 time earner of the Medal of Honor. Anyway...he said: "War is a Racket." Profits are tremendous and the only costs are in human lives. He said he had gone to many places and fought many people for corporate interests.
BTW...I'm in the sandbox right now. Hope to get out of here soon.

Dollar Bill.,.#1337317/3/05; 03:16:43

Pritcho, Goldilox, Topaz, I will prove Pritcho is right about the -lost cause- idea. First though, lets get unpleasantries out of the way. My sister and her kids live in Washington DC. Thier good freinds and neighbors, who I met, with thier 2 kids, were on the plane that went into the pentagon. The guy who approved the saudis to leave the country was not G. Bush, as falsely claimed by the 911 movie, it was that left over terrorism chief from the Clinton administration who at the 911 hearings, tried, with the media and the democrats and his book, tried to get blame shifted from himself.

You mention swaggart and robertson.....for you OZians, pat robertson ran for president, people think he is christian.....however, I saw him on TV say this as he was doing his regular -healings- via prayer. "there is a man driving a voltswagon, he doesnt know he has (insert medical problem), in the name of jesus...he is healed" Well, thats just swell. Only thing is, Jesus was not his name, it was Yeshua, and there is no psycics in christianity. No one that can see over distance, diagnose medical problems via some otherworldly all seeing capacity, and no one that can still be considered sane or christian if they think they can.
Swaggart, I saw on tv last week. I saw him as I scrolled by channels, and I thought, what the heck is wrong with his eyes? Is he drunk? on psycke drugs? He then, of all topics, talks about human sex behaviour, and how he know understands the -real- understanding of our behaviours complete the bizarreness....says...that almost no other preachers understand what he understands.
This guy, was caught publically, once with a rather poor choice of a hooker. after making a tearful -and what should have been private apology to god-, he goes out and gets caught publically with another, this time even more tacky hooker.
Some people use this to dismiss Christianity, which is like blaming the steak for the guy wearing it on his head.
I bring this up, because you mentioned them Goldilox, but also, because, in OZ, the church and state are one.
Now Topaz might drop his compass reading that! However, when the state teaches religion, the church and state are one. It is only a matter of time before the state religion shows its head and takes over the nation.
In OZ, as in sunny england, the state religion is the same one that the united states is/has adopted.
In england, after 44 years of religious education in the schools, a poll of kids, who themselves 90 percent, say thier main source of religious knowledge is the RE class in shool, (soon to be 100 percent a generation from now, as parents leave this subject to the state, like thier parents did and thier parents did.)
Anyway, only 23 percent of the kids think jesus (actually Yeshua), is divine.
Well, and some of that 23 percent is muslim, who havent made the jump yet to the state relgions MAIN PREMISE......which is, actually buddist. The underlying premise, to this NWO religion, is that all religions are the same in this one key one is actually god.
Your belief system central figure, is just a historical figure. good? oh sure, still real? not on your life.
And there you have it. The new world order religion. as taught more and more around the world as they institute character education, morality education, religious education. To all countries of the world this is spreading.
In OZ, as in the US and England, the fight is not, should the state teach religion, but, if there is a fight at all, it is HOW.

masAs usual, another view....end of this year?#1337327/3/05; 06:35:29

On The US Economic Front:
The Privateer's central task is to deal effectively with POLITICAL economy. This is the too often
ignored intersection between politics and economics. When events require it, The Privateer will swing
hard over to the political side. There is nothing more political than war - the ultimate act of politics.
War, in its own right, has a direct influence upon economics because war is always a drain upon any
economy. It is also a direct internal political threat to the Lives, Liberty and Property of individuals
living inside the nations which have gone to war. That is today the case inside the US economy.
A Global Warning:
The BIS (Bank for International Settlements) recently stated this: "Growing domestic and international
debt has created the conditions for global economic and financial crises." This warning was given on
Monday, June 27.
The BIS, the Central Banker to the world, is where monetary officials and Central Bankers from over 55
countries have just held their annual meeting to privately discuss financial and monetary risks to the
world economy and financial system. There were no nations directly named to be the cause of the BIS
warning about "global economic and financial crises". Everybody at the meeting knew that the nation in
question is the United States of America. The importance in the statement from the BIS lies in the geo-
economic fact that it gives the blue seal of international approval to any other nation or nations to divorce
themselves, monetarily, financially and economically from the US economy. The reason for that would
be to lessen the future damage to themselves when the global debt crisis does arrive. The centre-point of
this growing "global economic and financial crisis" is the massive US current account and trade deficits,
powered ahead by the even more massive US credit surge.
Two Things Stand Economically To The Fore:
In 2004, Americans were holding $US 37 TRILLION in debt - more than $US 123,000 for every man,
woman and child in the US. Last year, the US recorded an overall internal credit expansion of $US
2,718.6 Billion - 26 percent of its GDP. National saving was virtually zero. Were the US to decelerate its
current internal credit expansion back to zero, the US economy would contract by that 26 percent of GDP.
The saga continues. Over the week to June 13, the US broad money supply (M3) rose $US 16 Billion to
$US 9.70 TRILLION. Four-week gains were $US 80 Billion. Year to date M3 growth has accelerated to
5.1%. This is "money" created, through loans, out of thin air, with credit piled on top.
The (Still) Friendly Foreign Lenders:
For all of 2004, foreign investors acquired a record net $US 1.255 TRILLION of US financial assets. In
the first quarter of 2005, this figure fell to an annual rate of $US 1.170 TRILLION. In these numbers lie
the real financial danger to the US. If foreigners stop lending, the US economy would dive by about 11
percent of its current GDP, simply from the cessation of the inflow of funds. As of the end of March
2005, global foreign investors held the following respective percentages of the total of Treasuries,
Agencies, US corporate bonds and US equities: 43.0%, 13.2%, 27.3% and 13.4%.
Combined world holdings of Treasuries and Agencies were 25.8% of the total. US capital market assets
readily salable by foreigners totalled $US 6.668 TRILLION or 68.5% of total US financial assets held by
foreigners. As of the end of March 2005, foreign investors held a grand total of $US 9.723 TRILLION of
US financial assets. As of the end of March, all foreign financial liabilities to the US came to $US 4.634
TRILLION, resulting in a net foreign claim against the US of $US 5.089 TRILLION.
The GLOBAL breakdown will likely happen in the second half of this year. The Bush Administration
plans to borrow internationally an additional $US 900 Billion this year.

masJunk bonds, I like that.#1337337/3/05; 06:39:34

So what's next? US of A, (meaning GWB and company), to attach Iran to cover it's mistakes?
On June 28, President Bush crashed and burned in Fort Bragg.
June 30 was the first anniversary of the end of 1.00% official interest rates in the US. On that day, the
FOMC duly raised official US interest rates by another 0.25%, the ninth such rate rise since June 30,
2004, to 3.25%. No one took much notice of that. What they did notice was the wording of the FOMC's
press release. The FOMC said that: "...even after this action, the stance of monetary policy remains
accommodative ...policy accommodation can be removed at a pace that is likely to be measured."
In short, there was no change from the wording used in the press releases which had accompanied
previous rate hikes. This led the US and global financial community to the conclusion that, contrary to
their previous assessment, the Fed was going to go on increasing rates. They were not going to stop, as
many on Wall Street and elsewhere thought they would.
The reaction to THIS was quite spectacular. On Friday, July 1, the US Dollar soared on the currency
markets. On the trade-weighted basis which is the $US index, it was up 1.02 points to a new 2005 high of
90.00. The US Dollar rose 1.24% against the Euro and 0.79% against the Yen. The rise was even more
spectacular against other currencies. Against the Aussie Dollar, for example, the US Dollar rose 1.45%.
Against the British Pound, it rose 1.37%. Oh, and against MONEY (Gold), the US Dollar rose 1.90%.
The Amazing One-Eyed Currency Markets:
The rationale (in this context - "justification") for this US Dollar leap was very instructive indeed.
Apparently, the main reason that the US Dollar is going up is that the prospect of HIGHER interest rates
in future is luring capital from all over the world to take advantage of the prospective higher yields on
offer. The first thing that this points out is the global hunger for yields. The second thing it points out is
that most of the world is now of the opinion that the only place left to find a viable return on capital
"invested" is in DEBT instruments and the "best" debt instrument" is the one which offers the HIGHEST
interest rate. There are still a few who pay lip service to "traditional" caveats by diffidently talking about
the status of the borrower and the ability to repay, but these are an endangered species in modern markets.
There was, and still is, a name for debt issues which pay yields which are notably higher than those paid
by the majority of debt issuers in a given market. These debt issues are called JUNK bonds. They are
called "junk" for the simple reason that the yields they offer ARE higher than the yields offered by most
of their competitors. Why are they higher? They are higher because the debt issuer is seen to be less
sound than the average, and that the risk to the capital is therefore higher than it would be if it was placed
in an instrument which pays a lower yield.
Way back in the distant past, in the days when debt was something which people took on cautiously and
repaid as fast as possible, a man named Bob Hope made a crack about banks: "A bank is a place that will
lend you money if you can prove that you don't need it." As the saying goes - many a true word is spoken
in jest. Nowadays, the situation is that the more "in need" the borrower, the more people want to lend to
him or her. Why? Because they can obtain a higher "yield" by doing so.
There was a time when a loan was not a substitute for productive effort but a means to make such an
effort more productive. The borrowers most favoured by the lenders were the ones who could show the
best record in both real wealth creation and the honouring of past obligations. These were the "triple A"
or "gilt-edged" borrowers, the ones who paid the LOWEST interest rates on borrowed money. Back then,
the lower the interest rate, the higher the proven viability of the borrower. That applied on all levels,
from individual to sovereign state. Today, the entire process has been turned on its head.

Topaz@D-Bill.#1337347/3/05; 06:54:33

...just home from G-Daughters dancing Concert, the joys of late middle age eh?

The US certainly throws up more than it's fair share of Evangilists ...ALL promising a quick fix for current real or imagined woes under the "it's better because it's NEW" motto.
Here in Oz the State(s) provide (some would say MORE than) generous support for Schooling that founds it's basis on Religion. We have all the orthodox Schools (CofE, Catholic, an assortment of "fringe" religions etc) ...with the "State Schools" totally non-sectarian.

Whilst we here (Forum) struggle with lets call it Terrestrial issues, in reality, FAITH motivates most of our thoughts. A large part of the reason we come here is our Faith in Gold ...we speculate as to the machinations of the various markets, ...occasionally a "guru" comes forth to provide clarity and reinforce our convictions but, when it all boils down, FAITH based on 5000yr's of history is the rock upon which our idology rests.

Faith also motivates our religious thought. From a young age we (a large percentage) are taught to accept the misteries of Life and beyond ...according to whatever creed we are exposed to ...and generally carry that faith throughout our lives.
Which is all well and good however,

past experience has shown that these various creeds can, have and are used to alienate different societies/groups/nations to the detriment of all but the few.
If this NWO Religious motivation of which you speak seeks to create a "one God fits all" type of future, I don't believe thats all bad.

The most both frivolous and rewarding thing I've ever done Bill was a five day drive into the centre of Oz to watch a 30 second total eclipse which drew me to the conclusion...
...there IS a God, but to name him-her-them-it and further to claim some form of exclusivity over same, given our very VERY limited scope of understanding, IMHO is delusional or at best naive.

CoBra(too)@ mas - One of the Privateer's best ever ...#1337357/3/05; 10:04:59

He really wraps up the major eco-political fundamentals over-ruling any political desired outcomes from any unilateral side.

As it seems the global sole superpower status of the US is already more than challenged by closer relations of Sino/ Russian understanding as well as a blatantly absent EU. An absence, now highlighted by the US "butler", Tony B., presiding over this impasse!

The ME may have become more explosive since the last elections, resulting in a hardliner and possibly real terrorist as president - the German ex Molotow Coctail lover as secretary of state comes to mind as a mild cartoon what may happen in reality.

The impasse in Iraq, both financial as militarily, the impasse on the home front, where GWB's ratings are spelling LD - as in lame duck - and the potential of impeachment may drive the admin to extremes.

Notwithstanding, the financial mess in the US of A -whatever else may ameliorate the plight of the neo-"Cons" an attack on Iran - mind you by airpower - may still constitute a valve to release the pressure for a little while.

Will it? Or will it be the last incendiary bomb to set the ME and with it the rest of the world on fire, which may not be contained anymore?

Who knows - we're all hoping that there will be some sanity returning, even as the behaveioral responses of cornered predators are known - the last straw may be self-survival...

... And now we've learned about the great wisdom of GDP growth by debt; The Germans are again the pariah of the globe as they decided to save and therefor are to be crucified as the only G8 nation to stagnate...
Lovely - I feel Germany is just again to begin saving its seed corn for future productivity ... and I'll spare you the rest of my rant - in particular as Marc Faber has spelled it out clearly in a recent broadcast.

... I'll better quit here and just reiterate that Rome was somewhat messy in its drawnout collapse. I'll count on the US to deliver a much more efficient job ... cb2

GoldiloxResponse#1337367/3/05; 10:07:18

@ $ Bill,

Thanks for resonding, though I must admit, I'm both disappointed and encouraged by your response.

Encouraged by the fact that as a professed Christian, you still can see the obvious perversion by "highly political" pseudo-christians - at least the most blatant of them.

Discouraged by the fact you seem to miss the connection of the current admin to those phonies. Bush's family records go back to his grand-pappy Prescott, who, along with Henry Ford, was a BIG TIME Hitler supporter, right up to Pearl. His daddy's record of destruction of South American democracies and support for torture of dissidents in favor of US corporate takover of their resources is truly abysmal. (As for Ford, I still have a copy of his 1922 epic, "The International Jew - The World's Foremost Problem")

I also bear no admiration for the Clinton arm of the Demos, as I watched them sit quietly during the last election and then ignore the will of the party majority. At the last possible moment, they jumped right on the Bush bandwagon to subvert grass roots desire to remove the NeoCons and injected their own "Skull and Bones" SS-boy Kerry instead. OK, people, if you don't like Bush Jr, how about Bush Jr. Jr.?

As far as I can see there is a power struggle in Washington that amounts to the Drug-Arms cartel vs. the Oil-Arms cartel, and the loser is the American people. The winners are the Oil, Weapons, and Drug cartels who continually lower the standard of living for the American worker to reach some parity with their globalist partners - endangering any real freedom or democracy, and making billions in the shuffle. I cringe at the thought that the Weimar conditions leading to Hitler's rise are being repeated in the US of A.

You really only addressed my final thought. Can you comment on my assertion that these power groups are really one and the same, with the only serious struggle being "who gets to sit in the gilded chair when the flash bulbs go off"?

I have no quarrel with people who profess religion and keep it mostly between themselves and their "god as they understand him" to put it into AA terminology. But I will publicly resist those who feel that I must jump on their all too public bandwagon. Even Jesus supposedly said,

Matthew 6:5-8
5 And when ye pray, ye shall not be as the hypocrites: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thine inner chamber, and having shut thy door, pray to thy Father who is in secret, and thy Father who seeth in secret shall recompense thee"

Revolutionaries and idealists, be they religious, scientific, or social always suffer at the hands of the "made" elite, as revolutionary ideas threaten the very status quo that supports their "holier than thou" positions of authority.

GoldiloxFaber Interview#1337377/3/05; 10:12:15

For those interested, Mary Puplava has posted a note that yesterday's interview with Marc Faber will be transcribed and posted soon.

I highly recommend it if you prefer the written to the spoken word.

GoldiloxWorld Religion#1337387/3/05; 10:18:46

@ Toapz,

From my perspective, I hope never to see such a thing as One-World religion, as "organized religions" seem to be the "political perversion" of something that much better reflects itself in personal spirituality. That's as dangerous as One-World government.

"Freedom of religion" is supposed to protect my right to dissent in religious matters as well as political matters. . . something very important to the ideals of personal freedom!

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Helping you enter the gold market with grace and confidence.#1337397/3/05; 11:47:39">Get a head start on the gold market!
mikalFirst come, first served ideas#1337407/3/05; 15:51:50

House Votes To Undercut High Court On Property
- Washington Post staff writers

Buongiorno!Oh beautiful, for spacious skies.....#1337417/3/05; 16:47:20

Just heard Ray Charles' version of this song, and have "West Side Story" ,"I Wanna be in America" playing now. Just want all the America haters to know that it dosen't matter....we shall deal with our problems....and emerge, as we always have, ready to "march on."

And, by the way, if you get your *** in another crack, as you usually do, we shall come to the rescue, as we usually do. (I am speaking to America haters, foreign and domestic--we do not descriminate.) It is all ok....

And I would love to wish all America haters and America lovers--and those in the middle--a most happy and wonderful Fourth of July. My ribs have been rubbed, and my trusty Webbers stand ready--if the weather clears--got some great Chianti chilling--what a wonderful day to be alive! May God bless America.


GoldiloxHappy 4th weekend to all#1337427/3/05; 17:55:34

@ Bongiourno,et al

My patriotic bones run as deep as any, so happy July 4th to everyone.

To not question injustice and political deceit is the most unAmerican thing I can imagine.

As Jefferson said, "Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism".

This weekend I celebrate freedom, diversity, and the 1st amendment right to "call them as I see them" based on as much evidence as I can gather.

We didn't win this freedom without dissent and debate, and we will not be able keep it if we repress them now.

Happy Birthday, Americans!

GoldiloxHouse vote on property rights#1337437/3/05; 18:04:10

@ mikal,

I rather suspect that a lot of reps received correspondence from their constituencies suggesting that their beach homes were the next targets for eminent domain confiscation and development!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

GoldiloxWest Side Story#1337447/3/05; 18:14:22

@ Bongiourno,

Just a minor correction. . .

The song lyrics are actually:

"I like to be in America,
OK by me in America
Everything free in America
For a small fee in America"


Buongiorno!America!#1337457/3/05; 18:30:36

I wanna be there when the wrecking ball hits a Supreme's front door! What a great day! Agreed?

As for the other, do dissent--just try and keep yer wings level--too far to the left can be just as bad as the other way....Happy 4th!!

SundeckJunk Bonds#1337467/3/05; 20:07:42

Good one mas...junk bonds indeed...

There is a tendency amongst those managers who are brave with other people's money to pile into the junk bonds of companies that are seen "too be too big to fail", or who are perceived to be going through a "soft spot". It is hard to see US treasuries as anything other than junk with a capital "J" given the underlying debt levels... Not only is there little indication that the borrowing tendencies of "the company" are lessening, or that borrowings are leading to more productive capacity, but in the event of looming default, there is the additional threat of "monetisation"...i.e. "the company" having a licence to counterfeit it's way out of trouble...

Unfortunately, the US's attempt to increase its asset base by cheaply acquiring "rights" over oil-rich ME real-estate seem to have hit a "soft spot". In addition, I sense that Tony's love affair with the US seems to have cooled a tad (is it just me??) and he is now Hell-bent on salvaging some domestic reputation by "saving Africa"...perhaps before China gets there first. How deep, I wonder, does European colonial angst run in Africa? Was there ANY African state untouched by the colonial hand of the last two hundred years? Perhaps Tony's epiphany has political underpinnings...

Happy fourth of July to all U.S. Americans....


mikalGun sales growing#1337477/3/05; 21:28:31

Americans buying more guns, sales up 11%
- Big News Network - June 29, 2005
Short article that covers a small slice of the gun industry that includes imports and exports.

Dollar Bill.,.#1337487/3/05; 22:13:36

Topaz, Mas did fine work tonight with is posting.
Your granddaughter....... her parents, if they are in a free society, which they are not, would, in an ideal state, be free to choose the religious influences of thier child.
A goose flys by itself, it gets to travel x distance.
If the goose flys in a flock, it gets 78 percent farther than x.
Parents, if there is to be such a thing as parental rights and freedom of religion, must first and foremost have the right to carefully choose which flock they want to join to meet the needs of thier child and themselves as they see it.
AND, the flock they choose goes in the direction they choose, and helps them get there, like the goose, farther.
If the govt is teaching religion, then there is in fact, no freedom of religion and no parental rights.
Oh sure, some measure of it, but if the govt is teaching religion, you do not have parental rights or freedom of religion.
Your insight into life, and your trek to the center of OZ, are excellent and are in the realm of adult freedom of thought.
A child is not the goverments to sway. The govt, if it is actually the model of freedom of religion, which the US is not, and OZ is not either, MUST, first and foremost, not try to usurp parental rights to raise thier kids with the morality, religion, and character without the govt taking the education system to host whatever faction controls it, or individual teachers, to engage in the realm of opinion.
Goldilox, you project too much on me. I am an issue guy, not a party man. My issue, is exactly this. Freedom.
When tyrants threaten free societies, they must be handled.
War is not off the table of options. And war is not illigetimate. It is an option, and since evil is in this world, an option that will be required.
The bigger threat to freedom, is not terrorism. The biggest threat to freedom is govt invasion of parental rights and freedom of religion from govt.
More wars, not less, will come with the govt overstepping like it is in these areas.
Society will worsen, not better, with this overstepping.
OZians dont see it, English dont see it, Americans dont see it, the europeans dont see it, Like gold, private property rights, parental rights, separation of church and state, govt teaching religion, morality, character, legislating groundless freedoms to excess, all and probably more, constitute the ugly invasion of the tyranny of the powers that be. Or, theologically speaking, the devil factor, destroying what is good. While under the guise of enlightened action.

mikal"Growth" to be compromised by collateral damage?#1337497/3/05; 22:22:35,,Hayden_063005,00.html

H. Thomas Hayden: China Rising While U.S. Distracted in Mideast - June 29, 2005
The main conclusion of this military expert is that conflict and conquest are inevitable but must nonetheless be resisted. It's like being told that, as always, "There will be a long battle and atrocious sacrifices. But that's life." Maybe bankers are playing both ends against the middle.

Dollar Bill.,.#1337507/3/05; 22:39:17

open forum extends through July 4.

Topaz, is there reality or not. The level of invasion into my kids head by the govt may really surprise you.
In each and every year of schooling, they come at the religion teaching via, humanities, english, science, history, current issues, I am constantly dealing with the 2 youngest boys 13 and 15, and the programming of the school curriculum, which comes from the accursed NEA of the US govt. The idea that there is some way to just present religion is fantasy.
One of the rationals is "oh, the school is the marketplace of ideas." NO, in economic terms, it is a monopoly. What marketplace? There is one teacher, and many students. That is NOT a room full of equals. Even if the teacher says a sentence that on reading it printed, looks fine, but it is how that sentence is said! Actors say the same sentence 10 different ways for acting practice, and there are many ways a teacher can steer opinions of kids.
In fact, on the nea website, they dont even try to hide thier intent to break kids away from the thinking of thier parents.
You may say, well, is that so bad, and I say oh yes it is!
I can make long and lengthy case on how it is.
Topaz, I ask you to consider, I say, the problem is not that parents cause problems by raising thier kids free from govt religious interaction.
The problems all come from an involvement of govts and religion.
But, by saying that, to be really honest about the problem, it is bigger, due to enlightenment crap, there is all this stuff that IS religion, yet claims it is not.
THAT has to go also.
The govt may not be involved in OPINION about life.
The govt is the field of ACTION. Not opinion.
I should probably enlarge on that, and can, and frankly will have to in my court case, but, I say, review history, it is when the govts, the structure of govts of the world, who dont recognise the extent of parental rights, dont recognise that in order to have freedom of religion, the govt must not be involved in opinion on views of life, and the govt may not teach religion, or opinion on views of life.
They may not IF, what you are after, if freedom of religion. They may not IF, what you rae after is parental rights.
What am I missing here? Details yes, but fundamentally, I think this is the basics.

GoldiloxMea Culpa#1337517/3/05; 22:47:09

$ Bill,

My post was meant to express my ideas and observations, as well as to extract a few of yours -not to "project" on you. I only perceive what I read in your posts, flawed as that perception might be.

Please don't expect that my more general observations are meant to apply to you personally, and don't allow any misperception to block continued conversation.

I certainly don't expect we will agree on everything (although we probably don't disagree on everything), but I mean to honor your efforts at discourse.

My apologies, and happy 4th.


GoldiloxClarification#1337527/3/05; 22:51:32

$ Bill,

Re-reading your post, I suspect we agree on more than I might have thought before that post.

Perhaps we more often disagree on the roles of some of the protagonists.

SundeckMarc Faber interview#1337537/3/05; 23:28:31

Thanks Goldilox,

I just listened to Puplava's interview with Faber... It is wide-ranging and informative. Blessedly free from concrete wild predictions, but many options presented nonetheless.

Congratulations to Puplava for yet again another gem...


Dollar Bill.,.#1337547/3/05; 23:34:33

Goldilox, my dirty little secret, is that I am registered democrat. I am into local economy, the type of results that occur when loans are not only lifeblood, worker rights that dont leave us all as "associates" in the nwo,
uninsured and part time employees after the coming recession, free of govt overstepping and you know what?
I now suspect that one supreme court justice -threw- the vote on emminent domain. Hows about that for a conspiracy theory? One justice wanted to inflame the situation to get a -rationale- for a -conservative- jurist on next. Whatever -conservative might really mean I dont know frankly.

Because, the decision is just so bad! It dont make sense.
The thing that throws folks that read me, is this nwo stuff.
I just cannot make sense of many things unless there is a nwo fix in amongst the most important players.
Where I am taking action, is that the nwo, and surprise in one sense, the leftists, are joined in a bizarre alliance to teach religion to kids.
One wants the new global citizen, the other wants the religious involvement of humans destroyed.
Or, made into some -soothing image toothless niceity-.
Since they dont think there is a god, the idea of a devil factor is just way off the radar screen.
We can all just discover how perfect we are when we leave behind the -programming-.
George Bushes father, is definately a nwo guy, and he has helped the teaching of religion effort.
GB1 claims to be religious, so, his nwo intentions must either, be completely clueless as to the actual results of teaching religion by the govt, OR, these nwo guys dont care what old things must be damaged in whatever way in order for the nwo to come about.
Loss of industry? no problem.
Loss of soveriegnty? no problem.
Loss of sane money? no problem.
Loss of freedoms of parental rights? no problem.
Loss of local economy around the globe? no problem.
Loss of nature, creatures, resources? no problem.
This stuff and more.
I try to look to see the possible pluses of the nwo in order to know if there are some that warrent all this loss.
Maybe because there is no other way to have fiat continue?
No way to improve the maximum lives otherwise?
I dont know.
I am trying to see.
But, this parental rights stuff, this I oppose. Actively.

Dollar Bill.,#1337557/3/05; 23:48:33

Jefferson must have been on pot when he said this.
"Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism".
Risking your life in the defence of freedom is.

Which judge threw the emminent domain case? Stevens?
When my wife, for gods sake, is upset about a supreme court ruling, and how did she even find out about it, then I suspect a fix. I am going to make a bizarre claim. I think Stevens - purposely led- his fellow judges off a judicial cliff. He is steering future supreme court choices from the bench. He thinks the living constitution is heading too far out, and leads a charge right off the constitutional map that is sure to inflame Americans.
You heard that here first I assure you!

TopazPolitics and Religion. @ Bill.#1337567/4/05; 03:09:48

I'll toss this up and see if it flies, but will understand if the ptb see fit to pull it...
...thankfully Bill, MY kids are long done with Schooling and if, as you believe, Gov't is overstepping the mark in Religious "education" nowadays, then I'm doubly so.
I would like to say though, that IF the Child is being brought up in a loving caring environment, NO AMOUNT of contra-input from Teachers, peers or the like will sway them (permanently) from the path as experienced through the examples set by their Family.
It's a sad reflection on our society that RE has to be even considered in Schools Bill, perhaps OTHER families don't or aren't so committed to their kids spritual well-being as you and your wife obviously are ...and full credit to you for it!

ANY aspiring megalomaniac, seeking to transition from Soup Kitchen to Gravy Train knows full well the first step is to align (him)self with a mainstream Religion...
...then, as time passes, as he "matures" toward States-man, his religious convictions can be allowed to wane ie: he becomes "far to occupied" with affairs of State, and the electorate accepts this.

Of course many try and few succeed (see, there is a God) and we can measure this failure by the number of quazi-megs who have to continually revert to their "religious" affiliations to keep getting elected.
Eventually the facade disappears, they fade from the scene, or go out in a blaze of Glory.
Such is life in our Democracy and, as Churchill put it: Democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those others that have been tried.

So, we'd have to concede, "P" and "R" are part and parcel of life in Western Society ...sad but true IMHO.

Good luck with thew "Case" and Happy 4th Bill ...and all Americans, particularly arbyh (Spirits up, Head down arby) You-all DO have a lot to be both proud of and thankful for.

High-Ho Silver!

slingshotHappy Independence Day#1337577/4/05; 06:29:37

Wishing all a Happy 4th of July. Especially the Men and Women of the Military around the world.

mikalWeb wars#1337587/4/05; 08:05:12 The coming Web security woes | Declan McCullough - July 4, 2005
canamamiWho Owns the Dollar?#1337597/4/05; 09:11:45

Who Owns the Dollar?

Our currency and our economy are held hostage by Asia.

by Paul Craig Roberts

China is the leading scapegoat for America's economic ills. On May 20, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman blamed China for the U.S. housing bubble. If only China were not lending us so much money, mortgage rates would be higher, forestalling a housing bubble. Krugman says China is a poor country and should be investing its capital at home, not lending it to the U.S.

Krugman could just as well have said, "If only U.S. manufacturers produced in America instead of outsourcing to China, the Chinese would not have any money to lend us. Thus, no housing bubble."

Krugman is correct that if foreign lending to the U.S. slows, interest rates will rise, putting a speculative housing market in trouble. But the interest of the U.S.-China relationship goes far beyond the effect on the U.S. housing market. Economists set in traditional ways of thinking miss the really important aspects of the relationship.............

Great Albino BatThe Anti-Gold CABAL has its tantrum....#1337607/4/05; 09:15:10

So, COMEX gold was thoroughly whacked for some $8 US on Friday. A lovely swan dive!

This is obviously an engineered move, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with "market" activity.

What we are actually seeing, is the very beginning of a BANK RUN ON GOLD. The crowd outside the Banks is getting restive, rumors are moving about, the nervousness of the depositors is perceptible; one bit of bad news, and THE RUN IS ON, FULL THROTTLE!

So, the CABAL selects a Friday before a long weekend, to drive gold down with an extra hard spanking. Thus, the $427 figure will remain on the screens until Tuesday. More effect, for less gold expenditure!

The tiny market of gold, is so vitally important. Otherwise, why this obstinate endeavor to keep the dollar "price" of gold down? This effort is bound to fail, and yet, the effort goes on, with a cost to the general population which is paying the bills for this doomed effort.

Keep in mind: THE BANK RUN ON GOLD IS ON. The Banks are using the hand-held fire extinguishers to put down the flames, but the fire has been building for decades and the building is totally rotten, there will be no stopping this fire! Grab some gold before the run is on full-scale!

(Perhaps I shall repost this on Tuesday)


Dollar Bill.,#1337617/4/05; 09:24:02

Greetings Sir Topaz, I am 52, so I also qualify as the late middle age. May your granddaughter find a nice OZ boy, as here in the states, =comprehensive= sex and character education pushes a -its all ok- idea. The local newspaper ran an article that started on the front page, cheerfully declareing that sex boundries are being -outgrown- by kids.
And what precipitated this? They actually admitted, and used kids inteviews to confirm, that sex ed teachers tell young ones about the sex stuff available on the internet.
I have the article! So, the boys being interviewed, ran home and looked the stuff up and started their involvement with internet porn. The paper, by the way, this is the oldest still printing newspaper in the usa. And, in the capitol of the richest state in the US. The paper went on to -celebrate- this new fast track to deep sex involvement as some form of advanced human evolution. As if people of the past were stuck, and humankind were just waiting for this time to break free of any limits.
Character ed combines this, with what the future holds for Religious ed. which is, morality education. What happens there, is that any morality from religion becomes the states. I will say that another way.
Imagine the robbery.
Yup, robbery. It is in my head, and I dont know how much will come out in just a few sentences. As the govt teaches religion morality and sex ed and character ed more and more, it starves the useful and rich areas of family and church. Disparage what we will about faulty humans involved in anything, includeing church, still, churches can host vibrant and good communities of folks that can be quite rich and have very good results.
Sure, there are always nuts everywhere.
But, as the family less and less is the area to discuss reality, because the govt now does it, poorly as you might imagine, and on a vast scale, the richness, variety, and ---diversity--- of the community is lessened until the sameness of the -flock-, Is nationwide. In nwoland, worldwide.
Maybe this is how the Klingons did it, or the Jedi, or the Romolans, but I say, to give up parental rights and freedom of religion for the sake of the state is too high a price to pay.
We may think some religions stink, but thier decline is made more sure by parents having control.
To think each generation of kids just accept the handed down stuff of the parents leaves out the natural tendency of kids to do something different.
In claimiing to embrace the variety, the state crushes it and makes sameness, and frankly, stupid sameness.
It may seem like I am seeing this and makeing it larger than it has grown at this point, but that is only revealing of how distant you (not meaning -you- or anyone in particular, Topaz), but how much off the radar screen this is. Just as gold manipulation is hidden, and other things as you have humorously mentioned, this is also.
The nwo comes with its possible pluses, but also its tyranny, which always follows power and control.
Yes, happy day of independence, but oh my............what a night is dawning.

GoldiloxAnti-gold Tantrum#1337627/4/05; 09:25:07

@ GAB,

The $DX run has a temporary benefit for gold buyers. While it is running up, hte sale remains in effect for US$ holders.

Once the DX resumes its waterfalls, the "red, white, and blue light special" will be GONE, and it's OFF TO THE RACES!

Technicians have suggested very low 90's portend a nice top for the sawbuck, so we should see if they are correct quite soon.

GoldiloxState (and other organized) religions#1337637/4/05; 10:30:00

@ $ Bill,

You last post only helps convince me that individual spirituality upholds character more so than "organized religion". (I am not suggesting that you would disagree with this statement, but you are certainly free to).

With "individual spirituality", the special interest group is essentially "one", but organized religions often turn into PACs that end up serving not so much the individual, but the "leader of the PAC".

I will use the AA organization (and I use the term loosely) just for an example. Here is a collection of "groups" that recognizes "Higher Power" as the driving force, albiet "unnamed" to avoid diety nepotism. But it also strictly requires that positions on "all outside issues" (including moral judgements) be the total responsibility of the individual. Group endorsement of any kind is not allowed, even for such "relevant" entities as other "recovery" programs. Nor are they allowed to take donations from other than local members - strictly to preserve autonomy and eliminate any potential for selling "indulgences".

On issues of governance, no elected office is held longer than two years, and "trusted servants" are held accountable directly to their local group. No "professional servants" are hired - in fact the only "employees" are non-voting secretary-office administrators, janitors, and publishers, all of whom report to volunteer elected administrators. Each "volunteer servant" is responsible for his own financial support OUTSIDE of group activities.

Some have suggested that 12-step groups represent a "new" religion or even "cult", but as group endorsement of any "outside entity" (including other 12-step groups) is disallowed, focus on the group's "primary purpose" is better manitained - at least so far!

Perhaps I am being too idealistic, but this model has worked well for a number of generations, and spawned hundreds of other totally autonomous 12-step groups.

OK, I'm off to a Independence Day pickynick - food, fellowship, and frivolity is the order of the day. Have a "golden" 4th yourself.

Dollar Bill.,.#1337647/4/05; 12:05:42

Goldilox, consider the driving impulse of the actively involved religious guys. To some extent, idiocy, as any guy at the top of religious org has plenty of time to imagine he is supposed to rule the world to some extent, for god of course.
But, the real driver of even guys like me, is the changes being wrought by the faction I mentioned last week.
They are real, in force, in academia, media, and govt.
Also in religious orgs. And of course in the NEA, and in the head of all those imprinted with it from academia.
When there is no god, or no god with preferences, in your view, (again, not YOUR view, just a manner of speaking), your foundational cornerstone of view of life now is made up, to an extent that does really have an effect on your views, is a view of life that has no solid grounding for a moral perspective. It is flexible but without and legally based reasonings that are fixed. One may say, oh yeah, murder is wrong, and morally wrong, but, if there is just us here in life, then the murder is wrong idea is just an opinion. Might be popular, but it has no real basis because there is no basis in reality for any firm conviction.
Just your preference.
Did I say that too quick? or short?
If there is no authority beyond us human folk, any views are all without a basis but our opinion.
That being the case, the door is opened for what this faction insists is grounds for no limits in many areas.
Concerns about innocence of children just dont take precedence over individual freedom to explore excess.
And that is where the USA supreme court is today.
Check thier obscenity rulings.
Goldilox, I may misunderstand, but I believe you are in thier camp. If it is just an individually defined higher power, well, ok fine, but if groups agree to definitions defined by Yeshua, who does not claim to be a prophet, like moses or mohammed, and buddha, who didnt complete his theology enough to figure out who the heck he was to speak about the unconcious oneness as he did.
But more than the that, the real crux, is that the supreme court, like the faction, does not see proof that there is a god, so they provide no constitutional, or legal support or grounds, for those who think morality has a solid base.
A god with preferences base.
You like your independence on the god issue, but it seems wedded to a link to relativeism.
So really, the decision is this, one side or the other, do you think we have a god here with preferences? Or is it all relative.
The faction, is the faction of relativeists, wether they know it or not. The NWO? relativists by action. The education system in the nwo that teaches religion, morality, and I forget what else.....relativeism.
The -god is just all love- religions that are taking over US christianity and probably other countries....relativist.

The media? relativist. Notice how they demonize guys like me. extreme right wing conservative.
If I squawk? another extreme religious nut.
Media controlled by non relativists? Way smaller than you think. Who is reality based?
I think stupidity provides that answer. If there was no god, none of us, or at least one of us, would not be stupid.
There would be the smart group that could, with validity, tell us "hey you stupids! Stop being stupid! We did! Get it together! You are ruining the world!"

Now wouldnt that be special. Luckily for us, there is a god, and we wont be faced with that crowd, which already exists, having any validity. No one can escape the boundries of life. THAT is the proof that there is a god.
Also, it is the proof that there is a devil.
Anyway, that is the core of the remaining fight for independence. For freedom. On this fourth of July, there is a struggle for freedom that is different than previous. Or, actually the same, but a new form.
And free men are losing this fight. The relativists are winning. The fight is unpublicized, the way to fight is unseen. If you see "extreme right with religious nuts" making a fuss, now you know thier bind.
Many of them can not even articulate the dilemma.
Cannot climb on top of what is climbing on top of thier world, cannot see the nature, form, and strategy of the beast. Cannot see the way to fight it, and are in need of a hand. I plan to help them. And myself, and my kids.

The moon is about to be at its lowest point Topaz, so, I suppose, in the fun of our lunar discussion, I will fade back to my project. Thanks for the vent opportunity.

Liberty HeadHave a 4th of July#1337657/4/05; 14:12:16

Today, I mourn the loss of the hard won freedoms articulated in our increasingly defunct Constitution.
Those who wave the flag while they alter or ignore the Constitution have proliferated like maggots on an ever-growing pile of garbage.
Oh well! Decomposition is a necessary part of the life cycle.
Gold is exempt from decomposition and I find comfort in that.
It's maggot proof.

Best Wishes

Topaz@Bill.#1337667/4/05; 14:21:57

There are but a few of us who percieve the "devil in the detail" of Democracy. There are less still who have the courage of their convictions to take the fight to them. I take my hat of to you Sir.

It IS related to Gold too in that the decline in our Moral standards parallel that of the Monetary standard.

Looking forward to your further w-end input Bill ...with relish.

mikalPatriotic pivot points#1337677/4/05; 15:04:39 INDEPENDENCE DAY... A MEMORIAL SERVICE? OR STATEMENT OF INTENT? - Dorothy Anne Seese
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A world of gold at your fingertips...#1337687/4/05; 15:27:39">gold -- a global calling card
TopazSmeagols sore thumb!#1337697/4/05; 15:50:48

The $445 option "call" came in for some more attention on Friday with OI now up to 28oddK.
This IS a curiousity!
For starters, "someone" has to write the things ...presumably a Futures "long" picking up a bit of cabbage? "churning" to allay a price spike?
Note too the "puts" OI at $360 and $390.

Townie, Gandy, anyone! ...THOUGHTS?

mikalWounded bodies, wounded minds#1337707/4/05; 15:54:44 Costs of Care for Veterans: High and Rising - Brad Knickerbocker - July 4, 2005
CoBra(too)Borrowed Growth - vs - Reality#1337717/4/05; 16:01:15

... The final question is when, not if reality will finally set in. An outcome, maybe not acceptable to the PTB, though an outcome which will overwhelm even the staunchest believers of goldilocks perpetuating monetary fraud:

Bill Buckler of the Privateer has expressed it clearly once again:

An Eloquent Summation Of The Situation:

Let us repeat what this British analyst - Mr Julian Callow (sic), an economist at Barclays Capital - had to
say about the fact that private Germans actually paid off an (admittedly small) portion of their debt last
year: "There is nowhere else where a country comes even close to such weak growth rates."
German net real wealth is increasing. German savings as a proportion of disposable (after tax) income is
stable at a high multiple of the rate of most other "developed nations". Yet Germany is suffering from
"weak growth rates". Yes, it certainly is. But what is growing much more "weakly" in Germany than it
is in the US - and most other "developed" nations - is DEBT. What is growing much more strongly is net
wealth and the seed corn for future wealth production - SAVINGS!
As The Privateer has pointed out many times, the REAL modern driver of economic "growth" is nothing
more or less than increased indebtedness. Mr Callow has proved our point with eloquent simplicity. A
nation's "growth" is measured by its capacity to create credit. Success in this endeavour is translated into
the desirability of such a nation's currency. And the YIELD offered by debt instruments denominated in
that currency is now the number one investment criteria for (most of) the global financial world.
Germany, in stark contrast to almost all the rest of the developed world (including Japan, given the
extreme profligacy of its government), has been EASING its debt servicing burdens for most of the past
decade. The rest of the world has been INCREASING theirs at a pace never before approached, with
only the higher yields on offer staving off a debt implosion. The end outcome, especially in the US which
is raising "yields" the most, is certain. At some point, the higher rates necessary for these yields will
overwhelm the consumers’ ability to spend because it will overwhelm their ability to service existing
debt. When that happens, look out for some REALLY weak growth rates.

... Sorry, did not mean to spoil your Independence Day barbecue - though it's time to focus on the splinter in your eye and not only on the sand grain in EU's eye.

... Oh, and the reality is noone ever borrowed their way to lasting prosperity - except fraud on the short term ...
X-cuse right topic on wrong day ... and let the fireworks begin! cb2

mikalBurning up the autobahn...botanically#1337727/4/05; 16:32:31,1564,1631426,00.html,1564,1631426,00.html Germany Gears Up for Cars Made of Plants | Business & Economics | Deutsche Welle | Christof Polzer and Rafeal Heiling
GoldiloxRelativistic views#1337737/4/05; 16:56:36

@ $ Bill,

Interesting response, but I don't sign up for any "relativistic" morals. The bottom line for me is "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", not because I can attribute it to a specific command source, but because in the end, I can only control my own behavior, and I choose to be productive rather than destructive.

Whether or not the Media is "relativistic" is an interesting thesis, as I find them demonizing my views as much as yours. Especially the "mainstream media".

My conclusion is that they are more corrupt than just "relativistic", but that again, is just my conclusion.

Thanks for the enlightening Independence day discourse!


Dollar Bill.,.#1337747/4/05; 17:26:23

Goldilox, This is not AT you. A guy is walking down the street, doing to others what he would like them to do to him. He meets a guy who thinks quite differently. And HE, does something particularly nasty mean and perhaps life wrecking. Now, what comes from inside is a feeling of doing something rather vengeful and from revenge.
And my son, no longer having the kind of stuff I would have him grounded in, but in the -no authority figure- moral world of the nwo, or the relativists, goes with the base and devilish feelings that emerge from .......well........SOMEWHERE inside of him. Taking his clue from this real feeling he feels, and knowing that society moral laws are just agreements on opinions, and that there is no authority figure in life beyond the next guy, there is nothing in the way of him killing his attacker.
If he needs any logic to lean on, he can say to himself, well, if I did what he did to me to another, I would expect him to kill me, so, we are back to eye for eye, or worse.
Before Jesus,(yeshua), that is how it was.

Goldiloxyour example#1337757/4/05; 17:47:54

Understood, but note I did not say "do unto others as they do unto you", I said "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

Big difference.

Boilermaker$ Bill and Goldilox#1337767/4/05; 17:52:16

Thanks for an inspiring dialog this weekend, you are both articulate and deeply thoughtful.
In the case of the media (tv and major newspapers) I see a distinct liberal bias in relation to my own. On the radio I generally hear the opposite. The first stab at conservative tv is FoxTV that has at least expressed its intentions to be "fair and balanced". Other major networks and news organizations have been closely examined and found to have a liberal bias at least in the opinion of conservatives.

In the case of Christianity in the US I too am disturbed by religious charlatans but I do not perceive them as threats to our freedom. They are the product of a media that thrives on the fringes of human behavior, like Jerry Springer. My church is a small midwest Church of Christ (now turned non-denominational) built in 1900 in a tiny village where most of the members could walk in a few minutes. An addition to the church in 1967 added indoor toilet facilities and some Bible School rooms. Many of our members are older like me. They have the historical perspective of having grown up in a time when religion was not controversial or excluded from private or public life. These folks didn't always agree about religious matters but they didn't ask government to exclude religion from public life. The way I see it is that many Christians are becoming concerned about the gradual removal of anything connected to religion and being excluded from public view. There is a deep concern in my church that atheists and agnostics are winning the day. I am not surprised that "right wing Christians" are becoming more political. They are trying to hold the line against a perceived anti-religious platform, not trying to increase their political power. Today's Christian, even most of us old ones are mellowed and more accomodating. Cultural and religious diversity has come to our small community. Just a few miles away is a Sikh temple that is a welcome part of our township community. Most Christians have come to terms with diversity and only want to coexist peacefully with other religions.

$ Bill had it right when he lamented the erosion of parental preeminance in the rearing of children. The family of today is most often one parent (working) or two parents (both working) trying to make ends meet. Children are more and more influenced by daycare and public school. Public School is where religion has been excluded. Daycare is mostly antiseptic. Why have we come to this? Perhaps it is nothing more than economic excess. We have become more and more programmed to assess our place in society by our financial and social status. This is often in conflict with what's good for the kids.

Supper's on, got to go.

GoldiloxClarification#1337777/4/05; 18:16:42

$ Bill,

I suggest your protagonist's "selfish" logic is completely faulty, as violence returned for violence only escalates unto infinity.

An "eye for an eye" eventually blinds everyone, as each new blinder must eventually become a "blindee", as well.

Though they certainly don't work to perfection, most modern criminal law is formulated in an attempt to halt the chain of violence rather than perpetuate it.

Case in point, do the "sex offenders" in the intelligence agencies' torture schools and their reservist "recruits" bring their new found skills home with them by default? We are told that those offenses are so "addictive" that FBI and DOJ agents involved in porn entrapment schemes must undergo regular psychological testing to ensure that they don't fall victim to the "disease" themselves. Are we protecting our society from the poorly trained "reservists" who have been ordered to commit sexual crimes against persons in the name of "intelligence gathering"? Or are we releasing them without treatment to spread their new "addictions" in our communities once they arrive home?

My original moral statement suggests that the perpetrator is victimized by the immoral act in addition to the "victim", and most studies support this hypothesis. This is not necessarily edict from "above" but simple "cause and effect". Perhaps this is why Jesus was quoted as telling his disciples to "put away the sword" - an effort to break the chain of violence for themselves.

Just some meanderings . . .

We're well past Noon so I suggest we resume our discussion next weekend to accomodate our generous hosts,


GoldiloxThanks BM#1337787/4/05; 18:45:28

@ Boilermaker,

. . .for bringing another view to the table. I can see all your points except the TV media. The only "fair and balanced" media I find today is C-Span. FOX regularly set up its commentators to crucify any liberal guests as traitorous, hardly "fair and balanced" when some of those crucified are not media professionals but families of victims of 911 whose only "treason" is asking for better investigative transparency.

Not being a member of any established religion, I am encouraged by your and $Bill's recognition of the political charlatans who hide behind the Bible to promote a very violent covert political agenda. Watching some of those creeps use pure entertainment skills to fleece half-senile grandmas of their milk money by tugging at heart-strings on TV makes me sick.

I guess it fits with the statement I heard from a more "liberal" religious leader the other day that "Christians who do not agree with those [Elmer Gantrys]" need to have their voices heard as well.

I have never been afraid of the display of historical items like 10 Commandment placards, Crucifixes, Madonnas, etc., nor have I been particularly concerned about allowing individual prayer in schools, as long as it is not "mandatory" or "pressured" upon any who prefer to abstain.

For my money, atheists and agnostics should have no more right to push their agenda than any one else. "Live and let live -to thine OWN self be true".

Peace and happy Independence Day to you and yours!

Chris PowellTrial of Blanchard suit vs. Barrick postponed ...#1337797/4/05; 19:10:34

... amid 'serious' settlement talks.

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mikalWorld money change of season#1337807/4/05; 20:57:45 Dollar's surprising rally may not be sustained - Newswatch - July 4, 2005
Great Albino Bat$100 dollar/barrel oil predicted for year end 2005....#1337817/4/05; 21:04:54

This does NOT quite click, with me.

Sounds like someone has an interest in scaring the beejeezus out of everyone. These shrieks of fear usually turn out to have a purpose quite different from what we imagine. I'd take such warnings with a grain of salt...

What happens sometimes, is after these "warnings" and everyone has taken the bait - the bottom falls out of the market. "Remember Y2K!"


mikalLink#1337827/4/05; 21:14:01

Here is a better, more direct link to story on $.
Dollar Bill.,.#1337837/4/05; 21:42:52

I guess I am just going to have to accept this about you Goldilox, you are overly generous layering your thoughts on top of anothers, thereby changeing it quite a bit!
example.. "I am encouraged by your and $Bill's recognition of the political charlatans who hide behind the Bible to promote a very violent covert political agenda."

You know, even if you have -reasons- why you think people should behave, there is no legal justification based in anything other than another mans changeable opinion if there is no god.
The impact of unclear relativeism, in peoples personal lives and when courts make decisions, is huge.
It does not matter what YOUR intent is as you engage others if there is no god and then there is no -rule- that means anything at all actually. And if there is no god, the smart man is the tyrant, and is actually the only sensible man who is being true to his nature, which is survival.
There is no justice you can make the case for if there is no god Goldilox. Just what you think is better. But that is just opinion, and there is no higher law you can refer to.
Your desire to do unto others nicely, with no god in the picture, is actually, a weak useless, frankly pathetic attempt to cower in a dog eat dog world hopeing others wont make your life harder and the stronger in your midst (the tyrants) will let you eat the scraps.
I mean, without god, this is what you end up with.
If there is no god, who is there to take the measure? And those that think that way, may seem invisible right now, but that is because we are all flush with fiat.
Take the fiat down, which might happen, and the last person you will want as a neighbor is a relativist.
Which the nwo will discover to thier regret, as they see that thier -new global citizen- is a beast without boundries when times get hard.
And hard times WILL be coming.
It may seem smart and free to discard the lord because -religion- seems so tacky to you, but, time will show another view that makes a case in a way you may embrace. May you live long enough for that to happen!

Boilermaker, It does appear that "they are taking religion out of the schools" because as a smokescreen, groups fight over =under god= or many small distracting issues that make the average joe think.....Gee, they are screaming bloody murder about any religion in schools so they must really be watching this carefully. But, the truth is something quite different. In 1963, the supreme court said "you can teach -about- religion, but not teach religion"
And in that door, the educational arm of the relativists, are teaching religion in ways that you would not like at all. Religion is in the schools in a huge way. America is going/gone the way of england, australia, and many other countries. They teach relativist religion.
Well, July 4 is about over, thanks for the discussion about Freedom as it stands today.

Chris PowellChina's bid for Unocal is acknowledged as a move out of U.S. bonds#1337847/4/05; 22:58:33

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PRITCHOONGOING GOD MESSAGES - - - - - BORING !#1337857/4/05; 23:26:13

I was not going to express my views on the above BUT this site has become unbearable for me today.Give born agains an excuse ---any excuse & they will take advantage to preach.Two days in a row is a bit much.

DollarBill you've used more than your share of band width-
pushing your religious dogma down others throats.The one thing that should be a NO GO area on this site is religion.
I hope the PTB are listening.

Frankly I feel very sorry for your children -having dogma forced into one at a young age is criminal & defies logic.
I know --my parents were religious loops who forced me to go to church & who read the bible every evening before retiring.They didn't drink,gamble or swear(unlike me) & gave 10% to the "missionaries".They also believed(literally)that the earth was created in an amazingly short time,that Jonah really was swallowed by a whale & that Noah loaded ALL the worlds creatures into a Boat to ride out the flood.

Luckily I survived all that & have no belief in a God what-so ever. I also do appreciate some of the moral values I learnt.What's different is that I don't bring up my thoughts on religion in public --unless confronted by missionary zeal.From what I've read & observed there are
more problems caused by religion in America -than anything else.Your preacher men certainly know how to whip up the masses.

At 60 being the way I am hasn't stopped me from living life in a fair & considerate to others manner - - nor in teaching my 16yr old son good values.He will be going on to university & goes to a private school - his religious values have not been flavoured by my own prejudices. Also while I very much watch what he does on his computer & for how long - I have never used net-nanny or similar. If he goes to a porn site & has a look I would not need to freak out.He's been told what he needs to know. I can't & won't force him to be a clone of me.

This has been way too long - -please give religion a big miss on this site. Free talk on what's shaping the world is
gratefully accepted.

No need for a reply or advice - you to Goldilox :)

SundeckReligious comment#1337867/4/05; 23:50:06

@PRITCHO et al.

"Amen"...or should that be "Hey Man!"

(Dang Pritcho, you gone done roon'd my don't say NUTTIN' about Santa... or the Tooth Fairy!!)

More seriously, I too have a very strong religious pedigree going way back to the U.S. religious right...or was it the left??? (I prefer to think of it as the upside-down.)

...and even MORE seriously, I hate to stifle free speech...perhaps, as a compromise, such comment could be restricted to the ****Sunday portion**** of Open Forum.

Admin: Please feel free to freely delete this piece of freedom of expression...I won't be offended.



GoldiloxSad indictment of Man's nature#1337877/5/05; 00:04:42

@ $bill.

"And if there is no god, the smart man is the tyrant, and is actually the only sensible man who is being true to his nature, which is survival."

Sad indictment, indeed, but I don't believe "survival" is man's nature, as you propose. You reduce us to animal instincts a little too easily.

The basic "nature" of a sentient being is not just "survival, reproduction, or self-defense", although those instincts seem to be programmed into our most hypothalmic responses and are certainly PART of our makeup. They do not describe the entire person, unless one is lobotomized.

It is not "survival" that fuels the quest for knowledge, the desire for independence, or even the desires for truth or love. It seems to be more a desire for growth as individuals, and to some extent, as a species.

It's interesting that our discussion is moving into an area explored by Desiderius Erasmus and Martin Luther some 500 years ago. You seem to be leaning toward Luther, the fatalist, while I prefer Erasmus, the freedom advocate - maybe just my perception.

Thanks again for the enlightening discourse.

As I write this, I notice that gold and silver are struggling to build Asian support from the Friday lows - let's hope they can bounce back this holiday-shortened week.

Goldilox"$100 Oil by Winter"#1337887/5/05; 00:12:47


Not to say "we told you so" but there's a report this weekend in the British papers forecasting $100 oil by this winter, quoting no less than former Cheney energy advisor Matt Simmons. You know what this will do to prices of food, transportation, and will impact the economy in general, right?


Matt Simmonds joins the T Boone Pickins bandwagon.

Original source linked at the URL.

GoldiloxSHOCK CHART#1337897/5/05; 00:16:08


We have just posted two astounding charts on the site that demand further public awareness: Program Trading on the NYSE for the week June 20-24 is reported as 76.3% of all trading volume! A program trade is defined by the NYSE as "Program trading is defined as a wide range of portfolio trading strategies involving the purchase or sale of 15 or more stocks having a total market value of $1 million or more." As we see if, if you buy or sell on the NYSE, your odds are about three out of four that you will be buying or selling to a machine program!


The charts tell a very graphic story of how the modern SM is akin to playing chess with an AI computer.

GoldiloxDeep Impact#1337907/5/05; 01:28:13

For those who subscribe, George Noory's Coast-to-coast AM tonight hosted a number of comet model theorists including McCanney, Hoagland, Tom Flandern, and "Dr. Sky" discussing the "Deep Impact" mission results - what little has been released by NASA.

Very interesting discussion by some very smart mainstream and non-mainstream scientists.

GoldiloxCorrection#1337917/5/05; 01:31:55

The scientist mentioned in the previous post is Tom van Flandern - my mistake.
GoldiloxPrecious-metals 'demand shock' possible - economist#1337927/5/05; 01:38:06


For the past three years gold has marched in lockstep with the dollar.

As the dollar weakened, at first due to declining US interest rates, and later from fear of growing imbalances, the gold price rose in dollar terms, FNB chief economist Dr Cees Bruggemans writes this week in his 'Weekly Comment' article.

However, the gold price hardly changed in euro terms, which, he says, indicates a certain 'aloofness' to global affairs.

Over the past two months, however, this pattern has changed.

While the dollar has strengthened and Europe's political and economic attractiveness has suffered, gold did not ease off in dollar terms, remaining neutral in euro terms, as was to be expected on past performance.

Instead, gold regained its best dollar level of $440/oz and has risen against the sinking Euro, Bruggemans writes.

He concludes that, "something seems to have changed the market view of gold's value" although it is difficult to discern what factors are driving the physical gold price at the specific moment.

Bruggemans mentions jewellery and industrial demand as being influencing factors, but suggests that, as a financial insurance instrument, gold's role appears dormant at present.

Further, he questions whether gold could be experiencing a 'demand' shock, like many other commodities, such as oil, coal, iron-ore, copper and others as a result of steeply-rising Chinese (and Indian) demand.

Such a physical explanation for the sudden gain in the 'real' gold price sounds plausible, except that this Asian factor has been building up in other commodities for some three years, without registering at all the gold price, says Bruggemans.

Nonetheless, he warns that a 'demand' shock may still loom well for precious metals, as much as it appears to be affecting other commodities, at least until supply catches up.

He suggests that a more likely explanation for gold's sudden liveliness in the short-term, however, is its old role as a store of value of last resort in uncertain times.


Nothing like a little global uncertainly to fuel PM interest!

TopazWoo-Hoo!#1337937/5/05; 02:50:49

Silver UP a penny, 314 to go to crack double digits.

I think I'll bite my tongue 'till then.

G-Lox, the Link is to some Volcanic activity ..maybe related to the "trembling" ...also a 6.7 in Nias just a couple of hours ago ;-(

Dollar Bill.,.#1337947/5/05; 02:52:10

Goldilox, I do not "reduce us to animal instincts too easily". Either there is a god, or we are a dna creature without any reason to think there is a basis for law, except convenience.
This does not a "sad indictment" make.
Any evidence you see that is beyond dna creature features, are additional proofs that there is a god.
I choose to pick as my favorite proof, the issue of stupidity. Amongst the limits we are under, our inability to self perfect I find the most humorous proof. Because, the relativists think we can.
I think Luther and Erasmus, who was Catholic to the end, both whom liked to draw the mechanical drawings of the ways of god, did NOT succeed in describing the great flexible nature of god. They see concrete where I see a flexible surface.
However, niether would have described us as living in a -authority figure- free zone.

SundeckOil hotting up...dollar volatility...debt relief#1337957/5/05; 04:32:45

1. Predictions of $100 per barrel by Northern Winter, Matt Simmons' $500 per barrel "fair value", Australia blocking Shell takeover of Woodside in 2001, Putin hauling Yukos into the Russian fold and now calls for the Unocal takeover to be blocked. US troops welcomed in Georgia and Russians asked to leave, US and allied troops in Iraq, "unfavourable" election outcome in Iran, China and India striking oil/gas deals all over the globe, POO failing to drop on "strengthening" dollar.

Access to oil has moved from being a decisive factor in times of major conflict (Germany and Japan in WWII) to being a decisive factor in times of major peace.

The "new great game" indeed...

What strategy should a small non-oil-rich country adopt? In some dominant cultural paradigms, oil is seen as essential. However, there may be other cultural paradigms providing very high quality of life where oil is largely absent.

2. Dollar is quite volatile lately with major swings over half a percent in the BOT index in the space of less than an hour. Must be a fascinating time to be a currency trader. Gold still holding well above its long-term trend versus the USDX BOT index...more than $40 above, even in spite of the large drop on Fri.

3. The G8 debt relief theme is going to have the effect of focussing detailed attention onto the loans to poor countries from organisations like the World Bank...could be a double-edged sword...


Goldilox"Stupidity" Proof#1337967/5/05; 04:37:58

Thanks, Bill.

I think there is a flaw in your analysis derived from imposing a basis for non-believer's foundation that you limit arbitrarily - relegating them to a sub-category - a theme often repeated in the earlier Hebrew "conquest" writings, and sadly, a strong basis for the most militant sects of modern Zionism.

I do not automatically reject extra-worldly intelligence, and even more precisely the concept of some "intelligent design". The point where we diverge is the axiomatic imposition that some Jewish late-comers to recorded history (with an assist from the 3rd century Roman emperors) "got it all right" and the entire rest of human history "got it all wrong". That strikes me as an incredibly chauvinistic stretch of historical accuracy.

Particularly when I see diverse scholarly examinations of the political manipulation of so-called "scripture" by the Romans some 200-300 years after the events - arbitrarily accepting some authors and rejecting others. This, topped off by strong evidence that they edited the remaining authors to fit their emperor's political agenda, and dated many of the events to fit their own holiday calendar strikes me as "a little fishy" (pun intended).

ref: The Jesus Mysteries, by Timothy Freke, Peter Gandy

Perhaps at this point we should celebrate our differences and move on before we bore the forum to tears or receive a well deserved "admin spanking".


SundeckEnergy-Rich Nations Are Raising Price of Foreign Admittance#1337977/5/05; 04:51:05

With the oil price boom, countries are attempting to tighten the conditions of access to foreign companies. A brief summary from the NYT.
Dollar Bill.,.#1337987/5/05; 05:42:44

My recgnition that I am in a life with a lord god with preferences, did not come from reading scripture. I have read about 50 scripture sentences. The proof is in the boundries we face. The boundries speak volumes. It is in those boundries that I see/saw that there is a god with preferences of his own.
And that is an interesting topic, and is the -other- road to god recognition. One of the scientific roads.
And we can go there on the weekend.

BoilermakerSundeck - #1337997/5/05; 06:28:39

Thanks for the article re "Energy-Rich Nations Are Raising Price of Foreign Admittance".

I am reminded of the windfall profits tax that was levied on US oil producers in the early 1980's when oil was priced above $20/bbl. About $73 billion was collected from 1980 to 1986 ostensibly to fund alternative energy projects. I recall massive projects such as shale oil recovery that were undertaken but quickly abandoned when oil prices fell way below the threshold for economic development. Today's high oil prices will very likely reactivate some of these projects and developers will be more secure that a price collapse such as occurred in 1986 is not in the cards. Hopefully the US government will not interfere this time around.

I think we can safely assume that gold miners will suffer the same fate (host government nationalizes or taxes the miner to subsistence levels) when gold prices move into high gear.

MKThe USAGOLD MARKET UPDATE has been posted#1338007/5/05; 08:30:29

Gold vs. the Conundrum
How the Fed lost control of monetary policy and inspired a new world-wide move to gold ownership

Some analysts believe that gold's descent end of last week was a direct reaction to a combination of rising rates in the United States and a potential rate cut in Europe, a scenario that could put upward pressure on the dollar. This thinking ignores the more dominant trend of heavy capital flow from international sources (primarily Japan, China and Europe) inundating the market and driving dollar rates, and inevitably the dollar itself, lower. The process, if it goes unchecked (and no one at the moment seems to have a clue as to how to stop it), will be a tour de force for gold, the one primary asset that remains completely detached from the world's paper monetary system.

In the real world (the one that keeps shattering the economists' models), interest rates are steady to down on mortgages and longer term Treasuries despite the Fed's efforts to push interest rates higher. In other words, Alan Greenspan's Fed is being frustrated by the marketplace. The Fed has moved the fed funds rate progressively higher -- from 1.25% in June, 2004 to 3.25% now. 30-year mortgage rates during that same period have gone from roughly 6.25% to 5.5%.They have not been affected by the rate increases.

In last week's "Market Perspectives" Byron Wien, the resident sage at Morgan Stanley, relays this view from someone he calls The Smartest Man in Europe . . . . . . . . .

More at link


Why summertime is the best time to buy gold. . . . .

An update on the pre-1933 European gold coin market

All new Short & Sweet


Some good reading under the Nuggets section

The ABCs of Gold Investing -- D is for Diversification: Now more than ever

TownCrierA Declaration of Independence#1338017/5/05; 08:52:04

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a person to dissolve the hazardous bands which have tied his savings to the fates of corporate welfare, stocks, bonds, and the financial sector, and to assume among the instruments of the world a new foundation upon which to build his sovereign wealth and security, a decent respect for the lessons of the past require him to declare that this is the season which impels him to a diversification.

We hold these truths to be self evident, that only holdings of gold metal (not derivatives) convey the full power and benefits of ownership, and that men through the millennia have filled their treasuries purposefully with gold -- and not for light and transient causes -- that to secure these benefits, gold is sought out and traded among men, deriving its just powers from an unambiguous nature in the hands of its owners.

That whenever any unallocated or artificial form of gold or its derivative becomes destructive of that all-important unambiguous certainty, then it is the right of the market to abolish these imposters, to discount and berate with great scorn and furious derision any such form of "paper gold" that evinces a design to reduce their physical ownership under the absolute despotism of inflationary ambiguity.

Those who want the full-bodied benefits of gold BUY the METAL. Insofar as they may wish to construct a roof for nominal price exposure they SELL the FUTURES contracts. A newcomer must work hard to understand that these are two completely different vehicles.

Choose gold -- and declare your savings to be in a state of good health and independence.

Call USAGOLD-Centennial today to speak with a broker about a metal ownership strategy that's right for you.


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Since 1973 -- Proven Reliability, Longevity, Quality and Professionalism ---- Invest with Confidence!!#1338027/5/05; 09:30:18

GoldiloxAlt Energy/Currency Tax#1338037/5/05; 10:27:30

@ BM, Sundeck,

If the windfall energy profits tax was excused to fund "alternate energy projects" that never really materialized, I wonder what the corresponding "alternative money projects" might be?

GoldiloxConundrum#1338047/5/05; 10:40:23


your quote:

"In other words, Alan Greenspan's Fed is being frustrated by the marketplace. The Fed has moved the fed funds rate progressively higher -- from 1.25% in June, 2004 to 3.25% now. 30-year mortgage rates during that same period have gone from roughly 6.25% to 5.5%.They have not been affected by the rate increases."

As mortgage rates are usually determined by longer term bond yields, aren't they specifically held down by the massive purchases of said instruments by the FED's liquidity partners China, BOJ and Carib Hedge Funds?

Why is this a "conundrum", if they buying the LTs exactly as they have been asked to do?

Is this an Imperial wardrobe question, or is the point that they buy more of the shorter duration instruments than expected - thus driving potential inversion?

mikalTreasuries decline further#1338057/5/05; 14:01:09 / Markets / Capital markets - Bonds Fall as Investors Book Profits - Jennifer Hughes, Joanna Chung, Marinko Sanchanta - July 5, 2005
USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc."Open Forum" extended throughout weekdays...#1338077/5/05; 14:14:24

Overlooking the aberration of ponderous religious posts from this past weekend, the trial period of weekend Free Forum has generally shown us that widening the range of topics does not necessarily detract from the quality of discussion as we originally feared it might. This clears the way for a relaxation of our past standard -- that posts should always have a detectible relation to gold ownership.

Therefore, we are changing forum rules through a furthering of this trial basis to widen the range of discussion throughout the weekdays as well. Permissible discussion topics will be broadened to include economics, the political economy and financial markets without a necessary gold component tied directly to the train of thought.

This generalization of the rules will allow posters to more fully develop their views and share them with others. We feel that this will make for a more interesting and dynamic discussion group. At the same time, we want to emphasize that this remains a gold forum intended for individuals who either own gold, contemplate ownership or advocate gold as a key element in the domestic or international monetary system. We simply ask posters to keep that in mind when composing their posts.

The rules having to do with forum decorum would remain in place as would the rules prohibiting the touting of specific stocks or promotion of any kind.

This new set of rules goes into effect today as of this post. We would like to thank all the posters who have made this a special place to gather on the internet. We hope you find this change amenable and look forward to your participation within the broadened guidelines.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1338087/5/05; 15:23:50">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Tuesday Market Excerpts

Gold futures reach third session loss; opportunity knocks

July 5 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures closed at their lowest level in a month Tuesday, tallying a three-session loss of almost $15 after the U.S. dollar tapped a 13-month high against the euro.

But the dollar lost ground by the end of the metals trading session, raising the specter of higher investment demand for gold.

Analysts were upbeat about the longer-term outlook for the precious metal.

COMEX August gold futures dropped $4.90, or 1.1%, to close at $423.90, its lowest ending level since June 1. As gold fell, the dollar hit a new 13-month high against the euro and established a one-year peak against the yen at one point Tuesday.

Still, many analysts emphasized that the latest decline in gold prices provides a good opportunity for investors to buy in.

They believe the gold market's headed higher in the longer term. "Investors should be buying aggressively at these levels," said Ned Schmidt, editor of the Value View Gold Report.

"Gold and silver are now deeply oversold, and poised for an explosive rally," he added.

Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter said the market may just surprise investors with "how fast it retraces the losses near term."

The dollar's already "showing signs of exhaustion," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities.

Looking ahead, he wouldn't be "surprised to see a fairly violent spike down in the dollar just to see if the dollar bulls are paying attention." That could provide support for gold again.

John Reade, an analyst at UBS in London, also believes longer-term investors should use any further weakness in gold to build positions as the metal "remains set to benefit from the medium-term weakening of the U.S. dollar that we expect," he wrote in a note to clients.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr headlines)----

GoldiloxConundrum#1338097/5/05; 15:30:32

I'm still kinda interested in various views on the Bond market "conundrum".
Any takers?

Specifically, why would the FED be "so surprised" at the long rates remaining low if they are encouraging trading partners to buy them and push down those rates?

My only suggestion was the final statement in the original post - probably weak at best.

TownCrierText of draft G8 final statement on economy#1338107/5/05; 16:05:02

LONDON, July 5 (Reuters) - The following is the full text of a draft final statement on the world economy by the Group of Eight leading industrialised nations, who will meet in the Scottish resort of Gleneagles from July 6-8.

The draft, dated June 28, was shown to Reuters.

The health of the global economy is a key concern to each of the members of the G8 and to the world as a whole....

...We acknowledge our shared responsibility to sustain and maintain balanced growth within our own economies. We agree that we must all play our part through vigorous action to support a smooth adjustment to more balanced growth. We are committed to concrete and credible actions, including: continued fiscal consolidation to increase national savings in the United States; further structural reforms in Europe...

We discussed the risks that sustained high energy prices pose for global economic growth. Building on the productive discussions by our Finance Ministers, we reaffirmed the need for concrete actions to reduce market volatility through more transparent and timely data, and welcomed progress towards a global framework for reporting oil reserves, and look forward to further analysis of the workings of the oil market. On investment, we urge oil producing countries and companies and consumers to recognise their common interest in ensuring investment in sufficient future supplies of oil and refining capacity, and call for the removal of barriers to investment throughout the supply chain. We ask our Finance Ministers to continue to monitor these issues closely.

To help developing countries adversely affected by the impact of higher oil prices, we encourage the IMF to develop financial facilities to respond to these and other shocks....

^-----(from url)----^

Almost a joke. Why bother having the meeting when the outcome has in essence already been decided?


BTW, today's price drop through the sellout in the futures market seemed as good as a gift, so I dug deep for spare cash and had Jonathan broker a tidy order for me. Krugerrands, British sovereigns (kings), Swiss Helvetias, and even some Brazillian gold to spice things up. Three continents of gold will thus be gathered in a fourth. A happy day.

Erhalt uns Gott de Burestand$,Euro, Gold, Opiate of easy credit#1338117/5/05; 16:30:18

Bush can not win in Iraq for the simple reason that they never planned to help the Iraqis to self govern. The USA went in there to stop the Iraqis from selling their oil in Euros. Saddam would still be there if he stayed with dollars. After all we put him in power to start with dollars. The Iraqi war is a war in who controls the flow of oil. the dollar faction or the Euro faction. The trouble is that there are some things that can not be changed. One of them is that oil and gold are being priced in function of the altering $ value exchange rate. The Euro concept (euro numeraire) is backed by 85% debt and 15% gold, and the $ concept ($ enumeraire) is backed by debt only. Debt cannot repay debt in the aggregate. It is the arrival of raw materials times price- man debited, nature credited that delivers earnings. No dollars are issued in non debt form. 15% of all new Euros are issued in non debt form. The bottom line is that debt cannot be paid off with debt, and debt generates no aggregate income that is not offset by more debt. It takes production times price to generate aggregate income for an economy. USA manufacturing capacity has and will continue to outsource production and the likes of WalMart will continue to import. But the $ numeraire is changing, and so is the Euro's numeraire. Now comes the new kid on the block, the yuan. The yuan has no backing be it debt or gold. It's backing is the work force of people who save in gold and other precious metal. Most of these people do not have a bank account of any kind. The people of China hold more gold then any nation on earth. India comes in second, Both China's and Indian fiat banking system are of the western fraud system of fiat of which most loans never get repaid. The fiat dollar over time will continue to devalue, until the USA decides to balance its books that can not ever be balanced. Unlike China we don't default 95% of the loans, we just renew the old debt with a new debt. The Euro has gained value and over the long run will continue to do so. Because some new Euros do come into circulation in none debt form some of the old debt do get paid down. Then there is gold backed by the working Chinese. The Euro, the dollar, and gold are now a trio, and have to compromise with each other or the whole ship of currency sinks and gold will take its place. Neither the Euro nor the Dollar want that to happen. So over time both dollar and euro currency will simply be devalued. By this time next year gasoline at the pump will be above $3.00 and the price of most things will be up at least 10%. As long as there is a means of rolling over debt, through time, the future of fiat money is acceptable to most western people who have long accepted indentured servitude mandated by contracts payable in fiat. In China 95% of all fiat loans are defaulted on. The party (government) simply creates the fiat out of nothing, then pays off the loan in exchange for payment of another kind, be it in goods, services, or part ownership. In the years to come as Bush democracy in the USA is perfected like it was in Hitler's Germany that was financed by Bush 41's father you can be sure that the White House will be adorned by another Bush or Bush puppet. A Bush conservative is one who enslaves the people with ever more debt, so they can enrich themselves. Why is the GAO demanding the White House to explain the disappearance on 911 the 2854 metric tons of gold that belonged to the Europeans stored at the WTC? Why is that gold now stored at the Bank of England and used to create credit that competes with our FED. How can Greenspan be so stupid in not seeing what is happening to long rates and why? Or should I say why he knows full well what is going on but can't do nothing about it but run with it?
Erhalt uns Gott de Burestand

YGMFar Greater Than Gold...Lives Lost#1338127/5/05; 17:14:53

a map of the continental USA and the locations of Military Personel killed in Iraq and Afganistan. A visual impact second to none.
Great Albino BatErhalt uns...I think you are fundamentally mistaken about the Euro#1338137/5/05; 21:59:09

PLease note that

1. The "Gold reserve" of the Euro is 15% OF RESERVES (not of the money supply) and reserves are a very small part of outstanding money supply.

2. The Euro is totally a "debt currency", just as the dollar. No difference AT ALL!

3. What Europe has going for it, is a (comparatively) more rational behavior with regard to credit expansion. Europe is going easy (easiER!)on expanding debt, which is the other name for credit. Thus, European "growth" appears to be so weak; the other side of this, is Europe saves, builds up savings, not debt! While saving is going on, "growth" is slower. And the so-called "economists" abhor, detest and revile savings!

4. Gold in Euro-System reserves, has, in my opinion, only a decorative effect. It is like gold-leaf on clay statues, gold-leaf on boisserie, it looks lovely but is quite useless! Maybe in future, those reserves will prove useful. Not for the present, and (in the minds of today's bankers) not in the foreseeable future.


Great Albino BatCongratulations, USAGOLD and CPM!#1338147/5/05; 22:07:56

Thanks for widening the scope allowed to posters on this Forum!

I think it is a wise move. Gold is a political metal; gold as money is at the heart of our civilization and so many things (material things) revolve around it, that it is very difficult to restrict discussion to themes directly involving gold, for all politics involves gold indirectly.

You will still have a job on your hands, in keeping this Forum from drifting off - into discussing the Constitutionality of Seat-belts, for instance.

Good luck!


PRITCHO@ Erhalt uns - - RE "$,Euro, Gold, Opiate of easy credit"#1338157/5/05; 22:55:40

Hi there - nice to see your post & look forward to more thoughts. Would you mind please some elaboration on the following:

"Why is the GAO demanding the White House to explain the disappearance on 911 the 2854 metric tons of gold that belonged to the Europeans stored at the WTC? Why is that gold now stored at the Bank of England and used to create credit that competes with our FED."

A web link or similar would be great as this is something I have not seen discussed before. Thanks.

GoldiloxMarc Faber transcription#1338167/5/05; 23:05:46

The transcription of the Puplava - Marc Faber interview has been posted at the URL.


The problem with asset inflation – and I have observed this also in Hong Kong, and in Tokyo – is the asset inflation leads to a boom, say, in stocks or in real estate, and it really distracts the attention of people from actually producing something, because the manufacturer says to himself, "why should I be so stupid and work my butt off for a year, and make a profit of a million US dollars when my friend, he buys a piece of land or a few homes, financed on credit, and makes a few million by just speculating on real estate." And so the whole system...An asset bubble is actually very bad for an economy . . .

And all I can say is the demand for oil in Asia will double from 21 million barrels to 40 million barrels in say 10-12 years, because we start from a very low per capita consumption level. And on the supply side we have, today, a supply of around 84 million barrels/day. We don't know how much more oil can be produced. There are lots of people and studies that would point out that, actually, oil production will begin to diminish. My impression is that: the world will go to World War Three one day over oil, because China needs oil, the US needs oil, Japan needs oil, every country needs oil, including also India; and that these rising commodity prices will lead in the next few years to a rise in geopolitical tensions. And nobody can tell me there are fewer geopolitical tensions today than there were during the Cold War. In fact, the Cold War was a beautiful equilibrium because no dared to really do anything, and now the Cold War is over, and a lot of countries are up for grabs: the US is establishing bases in the Middle East, Central Asia; the Chinese also want to expand into Central Asia, because if you look at the map, China borders Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, Kirgizstan, and that border is several thousand miles long; and the Russians also have strategic interests in Central Asia.


a really good read!

Gandalf the WhiteLOOK Sir GAB ! The "bottom" is in !#1338177/5/05; 23:29:18$GOLD,PWTADANRBO[PA][D][F1!3!!!2!20]&pref=G

The last little RED "O" has arrived in the GOLD P&F chart !
This "leg" is complete !!
Get your YELLOW before it heads North again !!!

TopazBullion ...on the move!#1338187/6/05; 02:29:17

A bit dated but I don't recall seeing it posted before. A little further in you'll find a graph depicting the trend changes these last several months which hi-lites Mays sudden uptick.

Red Flags are literally everywhere!

Erhalt uns Gott de BurestandResponse to Pritcho -133815 the demolition of WTC to get the gold#1338197/6/05; 04:54:51

It was England's gold auctions that led to Clinton's Bundesbank gold swap. It is the Bundesbank gold swap that led to 911. It was the Bush team that planned the WTC demolition to get the swapped gold back. The Bush team has a problem. Government statisticans, accountants, poloticians have cooked the books for so long in order to keep inflation numbers low to reduce the cost of inflation indexed payments going to retirees. The FED governors are also part of that conspiracy to keep inflation numbers low for the very same reason, but also to make gold look bad. The FED is now forced to make gold look bad in every way it can so they can keep their fiat enterprise going. It would not look good if they lost to gold.-- Once upon a time (1978) prices increased 9% and the next year (1979) prices increased 13%. Then FED chairman Volcker drove interest rates to 19% and that put an end to inflation. Fast forward to today, and once again we see rising prices caused by monetary expansion of credit. Today like then cost push forces add to inflation, especially in oil and food. I am a farmer and I work my farmstead (Burestand). Over the years I have lost money growing crops and made it up on price appreciation on the property. I can make a better living doing nothing productive by speculating instead of growing a crop. This is true with most farmers today. Farming is a capital intensive operation. Speculation is not as capital intensive as farming is. That is why we have a large growth in hedge funds. The FED seeing slowing real economy creates new credit that ends up going into speculation instead of growing or producing something real. The only way to stop speculation is to raise rates so high that the cost of speculation to speculate makes it unprofitable. -- Bush team is not going to put up a web site on how they destroyed the WTC buildings or on how to blame it on somebody else. For the record Bin Laden works for the CIA, and he has most of his money in ITERA of which the Carlyle Group and 532 members of the 535 mebers in Congress and every member of the Bush administration also own. When Bush was sitting in the classroom during the WTC demolition he was not the president. Cheney was. There is a part in the Patriot Act everyone should read. Will post it on my next post. -- There is a need for people to understand just what off balance sheet gold short convertible debt is.. The gold market is maybe a Trillion $'s. The real estate market is somewhwere north of 50 Trillion $'s. The bond maket is somewhere north of 60 Trillion $'s of which our debt clock accounts for $7.8 Trillion. The gold short convertible debt has and will never be accounted for. Under the new banckruptcy law that comes into effect this October all of this will change. Credit card debt minimum payments will double and so will many loans on real estate. Naked shorting will become legal. It will be interesting just how people and markets react to the new situation.-- Schaffe und zufrede sy mitenand, erhalt uns Gott de Burestand.
SundeckOil "products"...war memorials#1338207/6/05; 05:25:46

@ Boilermaker #133799

Interesting chronology, Sir Boilermaker, thanks...

@Goldilox #133803

Are you refering to the large profits of "financial" companies?

Ahhh...but they continue to invent new financial "products" all the time, so that they can make even more profits. Great while debt/credit="money" grows, but there is a fundamental difference between "energy" and "money". Energy is conserved, money (at least, fiat money) ever expands...but there are similarities between the two insofar as both energy and money "make things happen" in a sense.

I am a little intrigued by the analogy between energy and money; but need to think about it for a LOT longer...

@YGM #133812

Yes...makes one wonder what the 55,000 Vietnamese dead map would look like...much the same, but more densely clustered. In Australia, in every little country town, there are "War Memorials", usually in the form of an obilisk and/or a WWI soldier resting on arms-reversed with a plaque on which the names of the local fallen from WWI (the "Great War" = "the war to end all wars") appear...and with the names of the fallen from WWII (the war we weren't supposed to have) appended. Your hyperlinked map of the US is the electronic equivalent of these little memorials that crop up all over Australia in every tiny town...sometimes the town is no longer there (old gold-mining ghost towwn), just the memorial.


Erhalt uns Gott de BurestandPatriot ACT#1338217/6/05; 05:50:35

Elected officials as criminals are above the law. Federal officials use the Patriot Act to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them is considered a terrorist.
Section 312 of 'Patriot Act II' gives immunity to law enforcement or public officials engaging in spying or demolition operations against the American people and places substantial restrictions on court injunctions against Federal violations of civil rights across the board. Section 205 allows top Federal officials to keep all their financial dealings secret, and anyone investigating them is considered a terrorist.
-- There is no difference between Hitler's patriot act or Bush's patriot act. Its just the wording because both occured in a different time period. Who ever wrote the Patriot Act had to copy it from Hitlers Patriot Act because a lot of it is just simply translated. I am sure Hitler did not translate the present Bush patriot act. It had to be the other way around. Wasn't it Bush 41 father that financed Hitler. By the way who owns 9% of Amoco (not the right spelling)? Who controls the ESF within the Treasury? If one wants to find out what is going on follow the money. News is just noise. Why is the FED now forced to buy US Treasuries to support the dollar by using an off balance sheet gold short convertible form of financing. Why is it convertible into bonds. If our debt was $7.8 Trillion as shown on our debt clock why is the total known bond debt in circulation north of $53 Trillion? If housing incresed in value at a rate of 13% year over year like during the last 5 years and the debt on the very same housing increased 17% a year during the same 5 years like it has, just who is getting ahead? I love my banker, he keeps me going in farming by increasing the worth of my farm to ever new heights that I can borrow against to keep going. It's kind of funny how the so called loan money he supposedly gives me does not even exist. What I am doing and have been doing is handing over my credit (% of ownership) in exchange of digital nothings. For some reason I feel good about it, but in truth I am a fool forced to work for nothing to make payments on loan proceeds with physical cash I have to earn first in exchange for digital nothings I got as loan proceeds. There is a reason why there is 800 billion $'s of paper money and coins in circulation that is supposed to pay the Trillions of accounted and the many more Trillions o off balance convertible gold short debt. I cant ask a kernel of seed corn grow into 22,000 plants per acre. But we the people are expected to pay Trillions o debt with Billions. It does not work that way.

masYour message 133819#1338227/6/05; 05:55:40

So what you are saying is that things will get really interesting from this point onwards?
Thank you for your contributions! I always knew something funny was up about 911, just didn't sit right with me and my friends.
So now London has Europes gold, that must really piss someone off across the channel.
Gandalf are we ready with the dogs yet? Everything is looking Upwards!
We wait we watch we comment. Good luck to all gold lovers.

slingshotErhalt uns Gott de Burestand#1338237/6/05; 06:32:11

If Bush's Patriot Act Is the same as Hitler's Patriot act, what would it take to bring this to the attention of the American Public. I have read that Hitler's gun laws are the same as the 1968 Gun Control Act. Funny nobody can get a copy of Hitler's Law to compare them. I believe they will go for the guns before they go for the Gold.
Scary? You Betcha. Take a look at FEMA and the Presidential Exect Orders.
Welcome to the Forum,

Erhalt uns Gott de BurestandLondon stores Europe's Gold#1338247/6/05; 07:35:45

Yes London has Europe's gold but on paper it is Europe's stored gold. But in reality it is the Bush administration who are using it for credit creation and in direct competition with our privately owned FED. What the Bush Adinistration is doing is using that stolen gold in creative ways to get us people further into debt, while playing "Funny Money" numbers games that make it look like we the people are building wealth. The idea is to sell the idea that "methods" to achieve financial independence involves using OPM "other people's money" The idea of privatizing social security looks good on paper until you look at the details. The devil is in the details, and Bush could not make the details public because he as a pusher of those methods can't gloss over the fact that the other people expect to be paid back with interest and the only way that can be paid is with more debt. There is no other way. The president can't make a speech to the public and say that to be truly independent you need to owe no money to anyone, and that gold id money that is self backing. He would be shot out of office like Kennedy was for bringing silver coinage into circulation. In the years to come the secret of downward mobility is to learn to live a higher quality of life on lower income, paying fwer taxes and taking the exit ramp from the fast lane of life years before your neighbor. In the next 20 years an ounce of gold will again buy a house and a pickup load of credit won't. So my advice is cut your expenses now to buy that ounce of gold, because there will come a time you wish you had, but now can't. That is what happened to the German people not all that long ago. Keep in ming Hitler like Bush never won the election. It is not how people vote that counts its how votes are counted that counts. Today unlike then, machines can be programed to count a Bush vote as two votes instead of one. Even the Iraqi vote was a total con operation run by the Bush team. The problem today is that today's economy is an asset economy that enables consumers and businesses to draw on their equity credit as a source of purchasing power fed by asset appreciation. Going for an honest money gold standard will stop the asset appreciating econmy in its tracks. Most people speculate on gold and in the process lose money to the speculators of which the FED is the primary speculator. You are betting against the house. Gold is an insurance policy that is self backing which in today's world makes possible to create your own credit. All you have to know how to do it. Make interest work for you not working against you. Schaffe (work) und (and) zuffrede (be happy) sy mitenand (together), Guet (good) gedeihe (thoughts) uberall (overall), Erhalt (support) uns (us) Gott (god) de (the) Burestand (Farm, farmstead)
Knallgoldrates#1338257/6/05; 09:21:58

Rising long term IR signal inflation-manipulating them down alters perception of future inflation and prolonges the refinancing bubble.I think Goldilocks is right,but then,I'm a absent minded scientist with scattered hairs (actually,not many left) who just had a serious lab fire (we're all okay but there is a large damage,many days free of electrical machines is hurting also-complex society that we are)
KnallgoldErhalt uns Gott#1338267/6/05; 09:42:27

Did you post under the name of Christian long ago?
mikalMoving the troops #1338277/6/05; 09:54:09

Regional Alliance Calls For Date of US-Led Terrorist Force Withdrawal -AP - July 6, 2005
US accused of fomenting dissent and unrest in East Asia as it's "temporary troops" wind down ops in Afghanistan. So the East Asian coalition consisting of Russia, China and others could hardly expect the US to overstay it's welcome. Especially now as they continue to move away from western trade dependence and dollar influence and sidle up to gold.

mikalGold investment pressure continues building#1338287/6/05; 10:23:38

China "To Allow Bank Gold Sales" - Reuters - July 6, 2005
TownCrierCanada foreign reserves fall in June, no gold sold#1338297/6/05; 10:24:50

Of Canada's US$32.922 billion in foreign reserves for the month of June, there was no net dishoarding of the quantity (3.5 tonnes) held since May, however, revaluation due to changing market price of the bullion on hand raised the book value on the yellow reserve asset over the month by $3 million, up from $45 million in May to $48 million in June.

Net revaluation of Canada's full slate of foreign reserves, however, including all foreign currency positions, resulted in a decline of the reserve base by $285 million.

Serving as one example where a country would have done better holding more gold and less paper. Does this, at least in a small way, help demonstrate the path one might follow to a "free gold" transition?


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A reminder of last week's offer -- Call while supplies last!#1338307/6/05; 10:28:17

only 400 originally available

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We are offering various pricing discounts on this special for quantity orders. Click here to learn more and order online or else call 1-800-869-5115 and speak to one of our representatives to secure your part in this attractive offer! Personal checks and wire transfers, as always, will be gladly accepted on all phone orders.

TownCrierBe sure to click the link to read MK's USAGOLD Market Update, available in its entirety.#1338317/6/05; 10:31:24

(excerpts) Overview . . . .

Traditionally, the summer months have been the best time for investors to buy gold. The past two summers serve as an illustration. In the summer of '04, gold traded in the $390 range. As the year ended, it hit its high for the year at $455. Similarly, in the summer of '03 gold hovered in the $360s. In December gold traded in $415 range. In fact, during the past two years, most of the gold's upside occurred between August and the New Year. So before heading forthat fishing stream, it might pay to first do some summertime bottom-fishing in the gold market. If the past is an indicator, we may not see current prices again for some time.

The Aden sisters, who have made some pretty good calls over the last few years, say that gold will either "consolidate for the summer before beginning a strong rise" or start a strong rise now. It is important for gold owners to keep in mind that much of gold's recent rally occurred while the dollar was rallying against its major competitors. There were good reasons for the break out and none of these were suddenly reconciled because the Fed decided to move its target interest rate up a quarter of a point.

^-----(see URL for more)----^

mikalHousing bubble beyond belief?#1338327/6/05; 10:50:55

Housing Speculation is more rampant than you think
July 6, 2005
Peter Schiff is C.E.O. and Chief Global Strategist at Euro Pacific Capital, Inc. - Excerpts:

"As the "debate" over the existence of a housing bubble intensifies, both sides are likely to be proven wrong when it comes to predictions for housing declines should the bubble burst. Most bubble advocates believe that rather than collapsing, housing prices will either rise more slowly, fall slightly, or simply stop going up, thereby allowing stagnant incomes to catch up with surging prices. However, a closer look at the facts reveals it is far more likely to burst with as big a bang as did the NASDAQ five years ago."
As we've been saying all along, if you can't see the forest for the trees, you probably won't have what it takes to buy and especially, hold gold. Have self-deception and speculation ever been so widely promoted or spectacular?:

"Given such incentives, is it any wonder that housing speculation is so rampant? Should we be amazed that when reckless lenders offer buyers can't lose bets, with huge expected payoffs, that so many want a piece of the action? The fact that the majority of today's homebuyers are actually speculators in disguise, suggests that when the trend turns, prices will drop precipitously. Far from holding on to their homes, as even most housing bears suggest, owner/speculators will sell in droves, or worse, simply walk away from their bets, leaving lenders and tax payers to cover their losses." [Some of these ideas are familiar to most, some are not. More importantly it seems is the amazing gestalt in the current US (and global) housing market. What profound implications and with real estate resonant with the state of most other financial markets! What intractable codependence! How insignificant it does make the petty struggles and cravings of mankind.

CoBra(too)Butter & Schmalz - Gott Erhalts -#1338337/6/05; 10:51:16

'nough said, as all are actively managing its farmers to smithereeens, while the G8 summit is actively seeking debt forgiveness for the poorest ... a "noble pursuit" of paying back cents on the extortion of Dollars.

Well, let's just pat our backs - we've done our good deed and may now go back to the real itinerary. Guess, I don't have to spell it out. Just read the latest essay of Hugo Salinas Price and contemplate his chart offered in the article ... and you'll know what's on issue.


... Nice to see you back under disguise, I'd guess?

DruidHmmm.....#1338347/6/05; 11:03:52

Druid: Seems I've come across the subject of farming somewhere in these great halls.

FOA (11/12/01; 16:31:28MT - msg#132)
There comes a time

There comes a time in all things when one must do nothing and simply wait. This is an ages old truth that crosses all the boundaries of life's endeavors; for everything is not always in the doing, but also in the watching. Any good farmer knows that he does not grow a crop; he only prepares his field so the growing, he knows is coming, can take nature's course.

My friends, we have crossed time and space, while plowing these fields of understanding, and the unfolding drama before us must now sprout it's own life. For now, it is my time to watch the trail and let the crop develop. Indeed, it will and it will do so for all to see.

Enough has been said to prove our reasoning is true, especially when the fields become full and in a shade of physical green only our seeds will produce. And planted them, we did, by hand, one at a time, over many years.
Enough has also been said about myself as this story was never about me; perhaps too much untruth was also said by others?

I am going to travel for a while and watch the trail from a distance. It won't be long before the rains come and the ground begins to open; in that time I will return. Until then; this farmer will rest from this work.

Thank you USAGOLD and all the fine people that make this media the best gold site in the world! Another time, we WILL hike again.

Sir Douglas
Your Trail Guide

GoldiloxETF's Driving Program Trades#1338357/6/05; 11:52:50


A knowledgeable Wall Street insider has provided us with an interesting insight into what's driving the huge increase in program trading we documented this week ( see previous story below). He writes from 125 Broad Street that:

"from Monday: program trading

the public is a lot of program trading in the form mutual/index fund, and pension fund asset allocations. But the newest phenom is etf's. If you buy a etf, the etf has to buy the underlying stocks, they do it through programs"
OK - great insight - thanks! Now all I have to worry about is what happens when all the EFT's need to raise cash at the same time when the public gets nervous and wants out...


ETFs are now being delivered for silver, currencies, and all manner of "stuff".

If the public decides that the paper markets are getting a bit too risky to stick around, the clamor for PMs will not only drive the prices through the roof, but also create supply shortages that might preclude acquiring gold at "any price".

But then, we've heard that all before, right?

GoldiloxSorry about the double post#1338377/6/05; 11:54:47

OOPS, not quite sure how I accomplished that! LOL
Great Albino BatWhat would MALTHUS say about aid to Africa?#1338387/6/05; 12:14:52

Here is what HE might say (don't curse me, curse him, please!):

"More AID to Africa means helping them feed their desperately poor, and so produce more poor. AID will only aggravate the desperate situation of the Africans.

"The best policy with regard to Africa, would be a policy of benign neglect, UNDER A GOLD STANDARD world economy.

"The dollar reserve system is the great destroyer of nations, Africa's included. Elimination of that system would be the first thing to attend to, if anyone really cared about Africa - which no one really does care about.

"After that - leave them alone, and let them find their way of making a living. Aid would only delay Africa's reaching such stability as within the possibilities of African culture."


GoldiloxAfrica, South America, and the G8#1338397/6/05; 13:07:52

@ GAB,

The Dollar reserve system has created a trade system (called "private investment" to make it sound more benign) that has extracted most of the resources in the under-developed nations by way of bribes and military support for some rather corrupt regimes. Once these "regimes" steal most of the IMF "economic aid", their populace and resources are then endentured to the IMF/WB system of control by $billions in "debt".

Whenever an Allende, Chavez, Ho, or Castro arises to organize the indigenous folks into stronger control of their resouces, they are demonized (or assassinated) by those who want to maintain control of world resources in a few bankster's hands. Don't get me wrong, these guys are politicians, not saints, but they are also politicians who cross the banksters, marking them for a bitter uphill struggle.

Case in point:

China's bid for UnoCal overtly included the sale of ALL non-Asian assets of the acquired company, in an attempt to "Asianize" Asia's oil resources. The US media and Congress have modified that fact, prefering to scare Americans with false rumors that the Chinese government will own all the 76 stations and control the flow of gas at the retail pumps.

Is there any reason (besides the Miami voting block) to embargo travel and trade with "communist" Cuba and yet maintain such a huge trade program with "communist" China? If doing business with China assists the growth of "capitalism" in the largest communist nation in the world, why would it not do so in the smallest one?

Notice also that the G8 demonstrators are ALL characterized as "anarchists" by the AA media. The media would never dare to suggest that "some" of them might be dissenters with potentially reasonable greviances.

The webs of deceit are so complex that even full-time investigators are often reaching for the details, as the intelligence services also maintain full-time "disinformation" bureaus to keep us all guessing at the truth and worshiping at the US$ throne.

Owning gold and silver is probably the best statement of doubt in their system of control, as it is the one asset not yet completely paperized by the "banksters".

Federal_ReservesWall Street Belatedly Waking Up to the High Cost of Cheap Labor #1338407/6/05; 13:14:50

The Wall Street Journal clings stubbornly to the notion of open borders and shrilly denounces anyone who dares to question the wisdom of mass immigration, but it appears that others in the financial community are beginning to reassess Wall Street's love affair with low wage immigrant labor.

The January report issued by the investment firm of Bear Stearns, estimating the costs of illegal immigration to the United States is a welcome and important breakthrough in the important national debate about immigration. The Bear Stearns study also corroborates many of the recent studies conducted by FAIR. Last autumn, FAIR published "The Cost of Illegal Immigration to California," in which we estimated that the state, which is home to about 30 percent of the nation's illegal alien population, is incurring a net annual cost of about $10.5 billion as a result. This assessment is largely confirmed by the Bear Stearns report, which places the national price tag at about $35 billion a year.

Similar reports from FAIR, the Center for Immigration Studies and others, have long made the case that the "cheap labor" provided by illegal immigrants is, in fact, prohibitively expensive when all the social costs are calculated. The research of immigration reform groups like FAIR—now supported by business sector analysts—has been largely ignored by policymakers. It will be much more difficult for them to dismiss confirming information from sources such as Bear Stearns and Barron's.

TownCrierGAB, What would MACHIAVELLI say about certain efforts of diplomacy?#1338417/6/05; 13:17:27

(Don't curse me, curse him, please!)

"Diplomacy is a sign of vulnerability best countered by swift termination of the counterparty."

The fact that a particular Mr. M____. carried water a few hundred years ago doesn't necessarily mean it has any ability to slake the thirst of parched bodies today.

...Which is simply my way to demonstrate that I struggle to see a modern value or otherwise find a grasp upon the point you're trying to make. Furthermore, the statement regarding a gold standard within your context seems to be a non sequitur if ever there was one. Would you care to elaborate?



GoldiloxBear Sterns report#1338427/6/05; 13:47:22

Closer analysis of the Bear Sterns report and others like it suggest that the "cost analysis" skews the numbers to fit the conclusions. Aren't most of those $35B dollars paying the salaries or purchasing products within the US eceonmy. The concern, therefore isn't the absolute "cost" but the funneling of those resources from public coffers - more big, inefficient government!

Like taxation, SSI, HUD, and most other governement "enterprises", immigration policy is designed to line some existing deep pockets at the expense of public coffers.

The more we can be steered toward the potential "security" issues, the more publicly acceptable the fleecing becomes.

CNBC is focusing on the private prison business today as a "growth industry". At 6% market share, they stand poised to offer "cost relief" to the much overburdened public sector. Shades of IG FARBIN!

Murphy's 3rd law: Costs always overrun available funding!

otish mountainAfrica#1338437/6/05; 13:49:54

@GAB: Sad statements but I agree. Although I do think that there is more to relieving the poor debt than is immediately apparent. A head-fake of sorts to mobilize more gold (physical) maybe.

@Goldilox: "Anarchists" - such a misused word. "I am waiting for the war to be fought which will make the world safe for anarchy" Lawrence Ferlinghetti.

TownCrierEurosystem's consolidated financial statement -- quarterly revalutations#1338447/6/05; 13:59:08

Last Thursday I took a preliminary rough cut at the anticipated results of the quarterly revaluation of reserve assets of the Eurosystem. The official statement is now in, showing the following.

Continued reallocations under the Central Bank Gold Agreement occurred during the week involving 360 million euro in yellow assets of three national central banks. This figure pales when compared to the asset revaluation enjoyed by gold's quarter-ending performance in euro terms. The new quarterly MTM value for each ounce of Eurosystem gold is at an all-time high of 361.231 euros, yielding a valuation gain on gold reserves of 12.094 billion euro.

Valuation of total gold and gold receivables now stands at 138.451 billion euro.

This value draws ever closer to parity with the net position in foreign currency, a larger fraction which tallied smaller quarterly gains than gold, and now stands at EUR 168.2 billion.


GoldiloxHUI watch#1338457/6/05; 13:59:20

Closing at 199 today, up 1.5% against fairly steady gold and a slight bump in sliver.

The 10-15% rise in the last few weeks suggests more "sideline" money is looking toward gold and silver in this abysmal "trader's market".

TC has already characterized their risk factors ad infinitum, but as a proxy for the metals, they certainly suggest strength.

Smaller security-minded investors are well positioned to take advantage of the current gold and silver "sale prices".

Goldilox"Anarchy War"#1338467/6/05; 14:01:57

Flashes me back to the 1960's mantra:

"What if they declared a war and nobody showed?"

GoldiloxCrude/Storm Watch#1338477/6/05; 14:16:36

Lt Sweet crude finished the day well above $61 on fears of "Dennis" interrupting supply in the Gulf.

I've been watching the wind speed numbers, and so far they are barely above "small craft warning" levels, suggesting how skittish the oil market is - any threat of interruption scares the piddle out of them.

After so many analysts were accused of "crying wolf", we now see oil closer to $80 than than the conservative prediction of $40.

McCanney has suggested that NOAA will name every strong wind this year in a effort to fulfill their statistical projection. As his theories count solar wind - ionoshoeric interaction as the "activation energy" for strong storms, he suggests we watch the solar corona for more reliable warnings than NOAA's computer models.

If the oil markets are listening to NOAA, watch for more speculative froth in the Lt Sweet market.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1338487/6/05; 14:52:04">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Wednesday Market Excerpts

July 6 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures closed higher Wednesday as traders took the opportunity to buy the precious metal as an investment hedge, breaking a three-session losing streak that cut prices by almost $15 an ounce.

"I'm not going out on that limb just yet, but it's possible that we've seen the bottom of the correction," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities, adding that for now, he's going to "err on the side of caution and remain on the sidelines." COMEX August gold contracts tacked on 60 cents to close at $424.50.

"Gold is attempting to stabilize after one of the best 'bear raids' in many years last Friday," said Peter Grandich, editor of The Grandich Letter. Prices fell more than $8 that day.

Gold "needs to hold through Friday's employment report and then can resume its second-leg secular bull-market run," he said.

Strength in oil lately has promoted interest in the precious metals.

"The higher energy price outlook certainly is renewing thoughts of inflationary pressures," said John Person, president of National Futures Advisory Service. And "stock markets around the globe are making advances, which instills confidence that economic and business conditions are improving."

All in all, this is contrary to "what was previously perceived since many economists had thought higher energy costs were acting as a taxing effect," he said.

"It now seems more like an inflationary effect, therefore gold is a sure buy as an inflationary hedge," Person explained.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr headlines, market quotes)---

Great Albino BatTowncrier: my post regarding a possible Malthusian opinion on Africa#1338497/6/05; 15:01:52

Alas! Towncrier, I do not care to elaborate.


TownCrierSudhir Mulji: Can the dollar devalue?#1338507/6/05; 15:12:50


New DelhiJuly 07, 2005 -- It is a common feature of international economics that countries with persistent balance of payments deficits are advised to depreciate their exchange rate; if they fail to heed to this advice they are eventually compelled to do so as they run out of sufficient international liquid resources to pay for the goods and services.

The only country that does not face this dilemma is the reserve nation whose currency is accepted by all trade surplus countries.

Thus America is unable to devalue the dollar in spite of mounting trade deficits as other countries choose to deposit their surpluses in America.

For, in contrast to America, countries that run persistent balance of payments surpluses do not need to change their exchange rate.

They can go on accumulating reserves indefinitely without having to revalue their currency. Unfortunately, this asymmetry between deficit and surplus countries nearly always leads to tensions between the two blocs....

...In the normal course, one should expect an outcry that the Americans should depreciate their exchange rate but unfortunately this has technical difficulties as the nominal value of all currencies is measured against the dollar.

The dollar cannot be devalued against itself, hence the proposal that other currencies like the Chinese should revalue against the dollar ... which they are unwilling to do. They can see no reason to take deliberate steps to change policies that are accumulating for them reserves.

...Thus, internationally the financial system faces an impasse....

One possible technical but highly speculative solution that could be considered by the Americans on their own initiative would be to choose any one international currency against which they would formally devalue....

^----(see url for full article)----^

All in all, this provides not a bad overview for newcomers to gain a rudimentary understanding of the international monetary puzzle.

The biggest puzzle, however, is how Sudhir Mulji misses the most obvious solution -- a paradigm shift toward a new reserve structure in which gold, rather than dollars (bonds) are targeted as the principal reserve asset among various nations, particularly those with surplus trade income looking for a place to park.

Give it time.


Au-someUnocal#1338517/6/05; 15:59:21

The campaign against my own economic illiteracy made great gains recently as I finished the revised and updated edition of Richard Duncan's "The Dollar Crisis". At least it feels like I skipped a grade. While I disagree with his solutions (global minimum wage and global central bank), the problems he discribes are certainly thought provoking. I believe Hugo Salinas Price has made some of the same observations recently. See link. The dollar standard has no self correcting mechanism to deal with trade imbalances.
The book set off a series of questions and realizations in my mind and I just wanted to recommend it to all of you who have also learned to stop worrying and love the dismal science. One example of many is the understanding that foreigners have such a surplus of dollars that they need to find more than one parking place in the lot for it. So, not only do they buy treasuries, they also buy equities, other currencies, companies in the United State and so on. I can think of a mine, a short line railroad, and a couple of pulp and paper mills in my neck of the woods that have been purchased by foreign companies. This hits home. And I know what happens to the local labor force - a decrease in pay and benefits. Duncan points out that were we on a gold standard China would have had all of America's gold by now, my fear is on the dollar standard they will instead end up owning all of America.

TownCrierU.S. stocks drop (DOW slides 101) as oil hits record high over $61#1338527/6/05; 16:07:43

NEW YORK, July 6 (Reuters) - U.S. stocks slid on Wednesday as crude prices flew to a record high above $61 a barrel, fueled by fears that two tropical storms would pinch supply.

The surge in oil prices capped a three-day run that drove NYMEX August crude futures up to settle at $61.28 a barrel -- up nearly $5, or more than 8 percent since June 30.

The Dow Jones industrial average dropped 101.12 points to end at 10,270.

...also drove down [were] the shares of several major oil companies, including Exxon Mobil Corp. and Chevron Corp.

"It's a very skittish market, with crude trading above $60 a barrel," said Michael Driscoll, senior managing director and listed trader at Bear Stearns, in New York.

Rising oil prices tend to weigh on stocks because they raise corporate costs for everything from trucking services to many industrial chemicals and also eat into consumers' discretionary spending by driving up gasoline prices.

^----(from url)----^

Gold remains a bargain. If you haven't already, start considering your diversification strategy, and call USAGOLD-Centennial for consulation on a plan that's right for you.


GoldiloxDollar standard and UnoCal#1338537/6/05; 16:31:20

@ Au-some,

When the Japanese came into the US RE market in the 1980's and bought a lot of high value properties, including Pebble Beach, the same concerns were voiced. A miracle RE delation kicked all their leveraged mortgages right back across the Pacific.

Perhaps the admin and globalists are "Prechterites", and expect global deflation to similarly take out the Chinese spendthrifts - unfortunately along witht the US boomers, who are drooling over 50-100% overvalued RE "bargains" and flipping them like the "burgers" in their day jobs!

GoldendomeGold/Oil ratio hits all-time low!#1338547/6/05; 17:51:41

Gold, 423.20; Oil, 61.28; Ratio: 6.9 "An all-time low."

The historic avg. has been around 15 to 1. A sorry statement regarding the control the paper market manipulators have over Gold, but the other (oil) that they have lost control.

Unlike farm commodities that producer and consumer need to price protect from acts of nature. I see no benefit to any party (save the price manipulators)in metal futures markets. The parties able to create as much purchasing power as needed from nothing at all, will naturally have the upper hand in driving the metal prices where ever they care to. The only way to regain honest metal prices is through the spot market. Futures in metals should be outlawed or otherwise done away with; they serve no economic value. IMO

CoBra(too)Gold/Oil ratio hits all-time low!#1338557/6/05; 18:08:42

@ Goldendome - as you've said -
"Gold, 423.20; Oil, 61.28; Ratio: 6.9 "An all-time low."

The historic avg. has been around 15 to 1. A sorry statement regarding the control the paper market manipulators have over Gold, but the other (oil) that they have lost control."

I'm not so sure that metal prices are anything else than farm prices to consider in your post. While farm prices are hedged for weather imponderabilities, metal prices are hedged for economic imponderabilities.

That said, it's just an aside to your post - Gold/Silver Ratio is way above its historic average of >16 and the DOW/Gold Ratio may still meet at 1:1 ... the only Q. remaining is price ... and then, maybe value follows gold!

melda laureRemoving our troops! What cheek! (and he didn't mean Iraq)#1338567/6/05; 18:14:26

An intriguing articla Sir Mikal! I saw a slightly different version in the local rag here.

I sometimes wonder if the $61 price tag wasn't a reaction to the thought that we've worn out our welcome in the oil patch. Given the context of the so called "bidding" for Unocal, I have to imagine that this "request" or "suggestion" is also part of the bidding process!. I can imagine the russians and the chinese thinking: "we'll pay you to leave now, or you can pay us when we force you out later."

Diplomacy is an unusual art with odd subtleties. Of course, Unocal, Afghanistan, extra-territorial "guest" bases are all separate and unrelated issues having nothing to do with each other, neither does china's trade surplus have anything to do with american current account profligacy! It's all so neatly compartmentalized, so obtuse.

The price of oil, like its rival the POG, needs to be put into proper context, and dollars are not helpful. China is willing to spend 18 billion to induce some american shareholders just to quit claim their holdings in Whatsitstan while letting the american assets of Unocal go free. Of course some of these so called "assets" are no more than scribbles on a map, ie potential oil needing much development before it graces the gas tanks of asia. Meanwhile, given the increasing volume of noise about IRAN I heard in the news over this past weekend, I am ready to assume that the US is willing to exchange a far more precious fluid merely to "secure" the rights to these "assets".

It seems the most interesting moves are being made with a phone call from bejing to moscow, and not from Al Zarqawi from a basement in baghdad with duct tape and fertilizer.

It's quite impressive, and... alarming. It hasn't quite gone eyeball to eyeball yet. But we're close. If a "potential" hurrican can validate 61$ POO, what "price" is bid for putting abrams tanks in downtown Tehran?

Of course I'm also ready to belive the Chinese are smart enough to "let" us conquer the middle east only to take over when we get tired. If I had a huge tank right now, I'd fill it with physical oil, but I'll have to satisfy myself with the yellow stuff.

Druid, I DID take a vacation, and look at the mess! On the bright side, Kyoto may be a moot point in about 10 years.

Namarie, nin mellyn!

melda laure(No Subject)#1338577/6/05; 18:40:27

The japanese real estate era was all splurge and fantasy. The chinese, I think, are playing chess.

Their style of play is most intriguing. Especially since they're using other countries pieces! It's difficult to find the chinese army since it seems to be all stationed in china. The rest of the "army" seems to be ingeniously mislabeled.

Influence, Relationships, connections. These are more important than contracts. When the first three are perfected, the contract need only state "I OWN you." and gold, oil, or pearls will roll towards China in exchange for "whatever."

GonlyoldDropped Sooner Than I thought#1338587/6/05; 22:32:33

Let's see gold ran from $418 to about $440 than back down to $423. Hm-m-m-m... It wasn't supposed to do this so soon. Was supposed to go up to about 455 or so before they (TPTB)wacked it down. 1.) Either TPTB got scared of the fast rise in the POG and wacked it down before it could get out of hand, or 2.) this was profit taking by the many, or 3.)TPTB have changed the limits of their cycle. I vote for #1 & #2. Will continue the wait for $455 or higher. Not a problem.
KnallgoldFiat achilles#1338597/6/05; 23:36:57

"What if they declared free credit and nobody showed?"
GondolinAfrica & South America#1338607/7/05; 01:37:14

Goldilox (7/6/05; 13:07:52MT - msg#: 133839)
Africa, South America, and the G8
@ GAB,

Goldilox, your quote:

The Dollar reserve system has created a trade system (called "private investment" to make it sound more benign) that has extracted most of the resources in the under-developed nations by way of bribes and military support for some rather corrupt regimes. Once these "regimes" steal most of the IMF "economic aid", their populace and resources are then endentured to the IMF/WB system of control by $billions in "debt".

Sums up a discussion we were having last night while watching a debate on debt relief in the most succinct way.

Have not had the time to visit these pages recently, but glad to see the gems of wisdom are still here in nearly every post.

Go Gold!!!!

Topazalt Gold.#1338617/7/05; 02:13:11

Metal-Power is clearly in evidence here with both April and June delivery clearly defined.
When that OTHER PM hits it's straps, (could be today, tomorrow ??) will PaperGold be dragged up with it ...or will PG be a millstone?
I 'spose it depends a lot on WHEN it runs. sooner, probably PoG won't go, later (say the 20th) we should see a double spike.

We Watch!

monTROZFutures markets #1338627/7/05; 02:46:43

Responding to your statements in #133854,
"I see no benefit to any party (save the price manipulators) in metal futures markets."
"Futures in metals should be outlawed or otherwise done away with; they serve no economic value. IMO"

IMO the precious metals futures markets do serve an economic purpose. I'll briefly explain the way I see it. Gold, silver, platinum, and other miners produce a mine product that is not fully refined or ready for coins, or jewelry. The miners almost always send their mine product to a refiner or smelter, bars or concentrates. When a mine ships the mine product they have finished with the core portion of their business, but they can't yet sell the finished refined gold or other precious metal. Their mining costs have been spent and they need to obtain payment for their product so that they can pay their bills. The refiners have yet to refine the material, and sometimes they have difficulty processing or backlogs and delays. It may be weeks or months until the material is processed and sold. By having a futures market the mining company can sell contracts to deliver the metal at a later date, and they are selling something that they really have, it's just not quite ready yet.
The refiners sometimes offer the service to the miners to purchase the material for the values contained. The price they pay is usually much less than the real total because there may be losses in processing or errors in estimating the true contained metal. They take the risk from the mining company, for a fee. But then they have the same problem. They just bought metal that isn't ready to be sold yet, and they need to pay their bills. They sell contracts for future delivery. The miner or refiner needs to be sure they will get adequately paid no matter how the market fluctuates, so they need to offset the risk of a lower price when the metal is finally refined and sold.
The futures contracts that either the miner or the refiner sell are bought by others who need to use the metal, jewelers, or mints. They need to be sure they will have a supply at a reasonable price when they need it in the future. So they buy future contracts for their supply.
This may seem like it's only a small part of the futures market, but probably over 95% of all the gold and silver that is mined is handled this way. Very few mining companies do final refining of their mine product. Take the world production of gold and a 30 day refining time and you can figure out how many futures contracts might be related directly to mine production.

O.k, so the explanation wasn't so brief. There may be serious problems with the operation of the futures markets, but that doesn't mean they have no economic value.

Mostly I just read this site, but sometimes I have to respond.

Erhalt uns Gott de BurestandFutures Market #1338637/7/05; 04:09:20

The commodity futures market no longer serves an econmic purpose for real production. It does however make possible large price swings. A good example of that is oil. The futures market makes possible to sell something you don't produce and cover by buying back that position. An example of that is what Barrick does. Barrick can on the futures market sell a lot more gold then it can possible produce. When price is favorable to them they buy back that position. Most exploration companies do the same thing. They simply sell what they don't have and at a later date cover after they have issued new shares where the poceeds are used to cover their position. On paper they can state that the funds were used for drilling a hole in the ground that was already there and use the same results from a previous drill as a new discovery. I just love it when three companes use the same drill hole results to anounce a new discovery. And of course new drilling will be needed to find out if there is enough there to make it feasible. What a joke. We need a futures market with housing. I would love to sell my house at a loss with the option to buy it back for the same price. I need a way to make a loss for income tax reporting. Last year more then 1000 paper farmers sold a lot of non-existing corn for $4.00 a bushel and bought it back for around $2.00 a bushel. They made a lot of money without having to own any land or plant a kernel of corn. This year Greenspan and company made sure the corn price stayed around $2.00 during spring and they are not going to let it fall below $2.50 this fall. They finally realized that in a real economy you have to produce real production of real things in physical form that actually have a use. You can't feed paper corn to a cow and get milk. That only happens on Wall Street. There is a reason the FED makes sure no dollars are issued in non-debt form. (The u in Gluck has two dots on it) Gluck im Hus und Gluck im Stall, Guet gedeihe uperall, Schaffe und zufrede sy mitenand, Erhalt uns Gott de Burestand
968World Stocks, U.K. Pound Slump on London Blasts; Bonds Advance #1338647/7/05; 04:55:09

Possible terrorist attacks in the London. The financial centre is evacuated, according to radio messages.
968Oil Tumbles From Record After `Multiple' Explosions in London #1338657/7/05; 04:57:02

KnallgoldLets hope these are not dirty explosions#1338667/7/05; 05:15:07

Why has Gold been trashed these days?
mikalTreasuries, gold rise#1338677/7/05; 06:23:12 Shares sink on blasts, safe-havens sought - Reuters
mikalLondon Financial Center jittery#1338697/7/05; 08:08:02 Economic Flash Comments - London explosions: Financial market impacts could be longer-lasting - Danske Bank - July 7, 2005
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.FREE Gold Information Packet...#1338707/7/05; 09:37:13

TownCrierNY gold rises on London blasts#1338717/7/05; 10:12:17

NEW YORK, July 7 (Reuters) - Gold futures in New York climbed on Thursday morning after four explosions ripped through London at morning rush hour, killing dozens of people and wounding scores.

"We're absolutely seeing safe-haven buying in the gold and silver today. I think it's going to be pretty choppy the rest of the day," a New York floor broker said.

"Morgan Stanley and HSBC have been pretty good buyers in here."

Witnesses in London saw the top ripped off a double-decker bus near Russell Square close to King's Cross train terminal, and three more apparently coordinated explosions caused carnage on packed subway trains as people went to work.

Investors flocked to safe haven assets, with precious metals and fixed-income assets rising while equities declined.

^-----(from url)-----^

Choose your safe havens carefully. Over rocky times ahead the "fixed-income" assets (bonds) will likely not serve you as securely as gold.


TownCrierDollar drops vs Swiss franc in flight to safety#1338727/7/05; 10:17:19

NEW YORK, July 7 (Reuters) - The dollar slid against the
Swiss franc on Thursday while sterling fell against the U.S.
currency as investors sought safer alternatives after a series
of deadly explosions in London's transport system.

"The market is in a risk-reduction, flight-to-quality mode
and that is still supporting the Swiss franc. But we have
stabilized across the board from the initial knee-jerk
reaction," said Sophia Drossos, G10 currency strategist with
Morgan Stanley in New York.

In London, four blasts ripped through London during the
morning rush hour, killing at least 45 people and injuring
scores. The blasts came during as leaders of the Group of Eight
nations were meeting in Scotland.

The euro initially rallied against the dollar because
currency investors' first reaction was that the United States
could become another target for infrastructure attacks, a U.S.
based trader said.

^----(from url)----^

Up, down, sideways... at the end of the day it's all paper anyway.


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Put a Solid Foundation Under Your Portfolio#1338737/7/05; 10:23:39

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Goldilox"Orange" you glad we got HS?#1338747/7/05; 10:37:20

The announcement was made on CNBC a few moments ago by NY Governor Pataki was that all US public transit will be elevated to "orange" security level.
TownCrierFederal Reserve adds $19.25 billion fresh money to banking system#1338757/7/05; 10:37:45

In open market operations today the Fed injected $9 billion into the nation's lendable money supply through a round of 14-day repurchase agreements largely at a sub-FOMC rate of 3.159 percent, and followed that up with an additional injection of $10.25 billion via overnight repos at 3.18 percent.

New supplies of "paper gold" can be made as easily, but real gold (metal) stands apart. To preserve your future purchasing power, the choice is clear.


2023@Erhalt uns Gott de Burestand and all on forum#1338767/7/05; 10:49:23

Hello Sir Erhalt uns Gott.
There are amazing thoughts passed back and forth here at the forum so I visit here frequently. I wanted to ask questions a couple of questions or make comments on your posts from July 5 and July 6.

Your post msg#: 133819 on July 6 said in response to PRITCHO: "the demolition of WTC to get the gold. It was England's gold auctions that led to Clinton's Bundesbank gold swap. It is the Bundesbank gold swap that led to 911. It was the Bush team that planned the WTC demolition to get the swapped gold back."

Can you explain more of what took happened in the scenario above as I've not seen these events related to each other anywhere else. I am familiar with England's well-publicized gold auctions. What was the purpose of the US / Bundesbank gold swap? How did the swap relate to England's auctions? How did this gold swap lead to Sept 11? Was gold was stored in the WTC vaults and the US needed to bring down the buildings to get the gold? So the US has stolen European gold? Why didn't the US just take it without killing innocent people? You seem so certain about these facts. Can you elaborate please?

Also how do the bombings that occurred in London today fit into all of this...or is it just noise?

Thanks in advance. I look forward to more of your posts.


TownCrierCentral Banks and financial market emergencies#1338777/7/05; 11:44:22

FRANKFURT, July 7 (Reuters) - Central bankers have a number of tools they can use to make sure that financial markets and the economy operate smoothly after violent shocks....

Cutting interest rates is the most public and visible action central bankers can use to help restore business and consumer confidence, which often gets shaken by violence.

Equally important though is making sure the plumbing of the financial system, payments among banks and matching up trades on markets where billions of dollars gets transferred globally, is working. Otherwise the economy can seize up.

Central banks can pump masses of money temporarily into financial markets to make sure that banks have no shortage of cash when they are uncertain about their counterparty. They also can arrange swaps of financial assets if one financial centre faces a shortage of money.

Here is a look at some recent actions and statements from central banks after shocks to financial markets:

SEPTEMBER 11, 2001

Planes slammed into the Pentagon in Washington and the World Trade Center in New York, and Al Qaeda claimed responsibility. The twin towers collapsed, killing thousands.

Financial markets in New York City were closed down and Wall Street devastated. Trading rooms were destroyed, power and telecommunications cut. Back-up systems for several investment banks were obliterated, making records for trades very hard to track and the Bank of New York, a lifeblood for the payments and clearing of trades, was hard hit.

-- The New York Fed started pumping masses of temporary reserves into the banking system through its daily repurchase operations to keep the financial system operating smoothly and prevent it seizing up because one party did not know whether a counter-party could meet its bills.

The average daily fed funds rate, the base interest rate for the whole U.S. financial system, plummeted from 3.50 percent on Sept. 11, the day of the attacks, to as low as 0.25 percent. Temporary reserves flooding into the market peaked at over $80 billion on Sept. 14.

^-----(from url)----^

Really, the only lesson to take away from all of this is that our payments systems are so important to the workings of everyday life that they will be kept adequately LIQUID at all costs, even with blind disregard to the actual position of counterparties, and the consequential depreciation of the currency unit.

The old days of true deflationary periods are well behind us, and money is wielded as a ratcheting tool by our monetary authorities -- it shall deliver only inflationary effects (of varying degrees) going forward, with no going back. Thus, as the response to problems is ever and always monetary ease and massive pumping, be sure to hold your savings in the form of gold so as not to suffer in tandem with the depreciating currencies of the world.


CaradocChinese citizens to be allowed to buy gold bars from banks#1338787/7/05; 12:11:07

Should be good for demand...

On earlier subject (connecting the dots among gold sales/swaps and a possible German connection to 911), the high percentage of Saudis among 911 terrorists is less interesting than the 100% correlation between the terrorists and a particular mosque in Hamburg. I suspect, though, that the particular cleric who stirred up this particular segment of the ummah would have done the same if in Sweden or France or any other country.


TownCrier2023, on Erhalt uns Gott Etcetera and the WTC gold, etc.#1338797/7/05; 12:11:12

In the spectrum of human psychology, there are certain people who cannot cope with the notion of randomness or of unrelated or inexplicable events. In order to cope, they simply fabricate connections as necessary to stitch all of the news elements floating around in their own mind into an intricate fabric of interlocking puzzle pieces neatly arranged into a series of causes and effects. He can state something matter-of-factly because that is how he has personally assimilated it into his own understanding; but that doesn't mean there is any actual credibility to the fabric of his story. In other words, don't feel obliged to believe something simply because somebody took the time to type it into words.

To help satisfy some of the residual curiosity you might have regarding the fate of gold stored in the World Trade Center area, reprinted below are a couple excerpts from news reports issued when it was finally recovered on October 31, 2001.


NEW YORK (AP) - Most of the $200 million US of gold and silver buried under a ruined building at the World Trade Center site has been removed so the remainder of the building can be demolished and cleared away. "I think we have most of it. I'm not sure we have all of it yet," Mayor Rudolph Giuliani told reporters Wednesday.

The precious metals in a Bank of Nova Scotia vault at 4 World Trade Center were being taken away "because authorities need to demolish the building," said Pam Agnew, a spokeswoman for the Toronto-based bank. "For safety and security reasons, I don't want to give away any details that could put people's lives at risk."
Workers at Ground Zero unearthed last night a buried treasure of gold, hidden for weeks under the ruins of the World Trade Center.

As a small army of federal agents with shotguns and automatic rifles stood guard, city cops and firefighters packed two Brink's armored trucks with the lode, sources said.

As workers inched closer to the gold yesterday, authorities began restricting access to the north side of Ground Zero and FBI and Secret Service agents joined cops and firefighters at the site.

2023Thanks Town Crier#1338807/7/05; 12:42:42

I do remember the media saying that the metals were being removed from the WTC after 9/11. I am always very skeptical of things I read and hear in any media (even here at the forum sometimes) so that is why I asked Sir Erhalt for more details/information/facts. He seemed so sure that this is what occured --- gold swaps related to WTC on 9/11. Perhaps I am just naive .............but, well, I'm trying to make sense of this crazy world like the rest of us here. I saw his posts and just had to ask for opinions. Can anyone contribute to this 'mystery'?

Thanks again.


GoldiloxWTC Gold#1338817/7/05; 13:08:24

I am not one who believes the media's pat story of cave dwellers performing 757 aerobatics maneuvers, but I have to go with TC on this one. The people behind this would most likely call $200M in gold "chump change".

Even Warren Buffett lost nearly that much in his currency "insurance" trades.

There are a lot of unanswered questions based on the volumes of untested evidence, and many political "conundra" raised by said questions.

Afer all, the most effective form of disinformation is to foment "wild goose chases", and this most likely qualifies.

For those who wish to explore more in-depth 911 investigations, may I suggest a few more sources (none of whom mention WTC gold). They do, however, ask some very important questions about potential involvement of globalists in "world terrorism" and motives for the same.

Read and judge for yourself. I trust no one who regularly frequents this forum is naive enough to believe everything they read, but ascertaining the right questions is always a good start.

Aside from this, I noticed that even after the London tragedy and the US "orange alert', gold and silver found only minor interruption from "business as usual", and we seem to be catching bids on each downdraft.

Chris PowellGATA says European central banks repeatedly sell gold at $440#1338827/7/05; 13:34:30

International press release.
Chris PowellReuters notes GATA statement on European central bank gold price capping#1338837/7/05; 13:35:14

Looks like the boys are a little miffed that this should be discussed.
TownCrierLatest von Braun arrived by e-mail today... Unintended Consequences! Part 2#1338847/7/05; 13:40:00

Excerpts from the 'Rocket School of Economics':

July 7th, 2005

"Inflate or die!"

So says Richard Russell ( in a recent commentary when describing his view of the financial situation the US currently finds itself in. Stop inflating (read creating more debt) and the fiat currency game ends, as in goodbye to the US banking system as we know it.

....There is a great line from the original Star Wars movie which is: "Who is more the fool, the fool or the fool who follows the fool?" Which central bank is more the fool, or do we have a trio of fools? Without the US market, China and Japan have a problem, without China and Japan holding US securities, the US has a problem. At what point are these problems recognized by the participants and what do they do about it? Is there a solution?

...While there is no simple answer to the dilemma now appearing if you remain a participant and continue to hold paper assets, including real estate with a mortgage attached, you stand a good chance of suffering financial loss as a result of out of control banking policies administered by central banks that have a vested interest in their own survival and little else. You, the participant, have on the most part, been an unwitting party to this game of asset inflation, having had dangled before you the carrot of illisionary wealth represented by the cyclically increasing dollar value of hard and soft assets which, in fact, is merely the mirror image of a dollar devalued by the Fed's hyper-active printing press.

...A quote from Alan Greenspan in Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal:

"In the absence of a gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights."

Perhaps the best financial strategy may well be to take Mr. Greenspan's warning about the absence of a gold standard seriously and get one's self on an individual or private gold standard...

^------(see url for full commentary)----^


2023@ Goldilox #1338857/7/05; 13:40:35

Thanks for the links that you posted on the WTC. I really dont believe anything the media has put out about 9/11.

As a side note, I guessed earlier this morning that the US stock markets would finish higher and that looks like what will happen. They just keep pumping the $$$ into the markets. My recent purchase here at CPM makes my future seem a little more secure.

Thanks to all at this forum/USAGold/CPM - I am so glad it's here every day.


CoBra(too)On a clear day you can see forever ....#1338867/7/05; 13:59:39

Contemplating todays Dollar/Gold chart and with it the SM's and Bonds in view of the atrocities in London it becomes clear that there is only one overwhelming strategy.

No, not the WAT, as was re-indoctrinated at the G8 Meetings - we will not ever budge to terror - and especially not at a time when we hand out some scraps to the poorest countries, we've raped forever and reset the Tokyo climate accords, probably to the worse.

Oh no, that's not the goal at all. The only goal is to set the globalized world "free" enough to choose and accept the new world order of a pa(u)perized monetary system, ensuring perpetual serfdom to its users, and perpetual power to its usurers.

All else is written off as collateral damage ... in the quest to keep the system working for another cloudy day ...

... Only the spin seems to go on forever ... and ever cb2

Au-someInevitable Crises?#1338877/7/05; 14:16:55

From Dr. Edwin Viera:
"Contrary to a widespread belief, socialism in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe did not collapse because of the clever geostrategic maneuvers of the Reagan Administration. Neither did the East Bloc break up because its leaders were incompetents who put into practice the wrong plans. Particular politicians and policies—East or West—had next to nothing to do with it.

The East Bloc fell apart—and had to fall apart, no matter what anyone did—because of an obscure principle of economics known as "the impossibility of rational economic calculation under bureaucratic central planning." Socialism failed—and must always fail—because, without prices for goods and services generated by a free market, central planners cannot allocate resources and manpower intelligently. But central planners cannot allow a free market to set prices (otherwise there could be no central planning). In the long run, this self-imposed bureaucratic blindness to the real values of people and things results in monumental waste, the failure of central plans to deliver sound capital investments and advancing standards of living, and finally the collapse of those societies that allow politicians and bureaucrats, rather than free entrepreneurs and workers, to direct the course of economic affairs."
See link for the rest.

Federal_ReservesTerror Attack#1338887/7/05; 14:23:11

No real impact on the markets. Why should it? Minor amount of people actually died today compare to the daily toll of accidental deaths...when you count the shootings its even worse! Then of course In the United States of America there are 4,000 abortions performed every day too. 41 million slaughtered since abortion was legalized. A few people die in a bomb blast? So what!

10. Machinery
Deaths per year: 350

We can thank the farmers of America for the inclusion of this particular misfortune as a cause of death. Between corn-huskers and wheat-threshers, is it a wonder? The reason it is last on the list is that there just aren't enough people in farming these days. Ironically, they have all been replaced by machines. Hmm… accident, or deliberate act by wanton machinery? We may never know.

9. Medical & Surgical Complications and Misadventures
Deaths per year: 500

While we are incredibly insensitive people, we did not coin the term "medical misadventure"- the National Safety Council did. How is death by surgeon a "misadventure?" While we're not sure, we suspect that this number refers to elective surgeries that people undertake, such as liposuction. After all, the removal of a brain tumor is not usually considered to be an "adventure."

8. Poisoning by gases
Deaths per year: 700

There's nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning … In this category, you mostly have deaths by carbon monoxide poisoning due to faulty operation of a heating or cooking appliance, or a standing automobile. We assume, however, that the noxious gasses emitted by Uncle Albert qualify too.

7. Firearms
Deaths per year: 1,500

We can thank our second amendment rights for all 1500 of these deaths; call it the "right to die" amendment. You probably don't want to know how many countries in the world do not even have "accidental death by firearms" on their top ten, or their top twenty. Suffice it to say that it's most of them. Of the 1500, you're looking at about 75% young males between the age of 14 and 25 (and getting younger every year), who unintentionally shoot themselves or someone else. For more information on the place of guns in society, click over to our pros and cons section.

6. Suffocation
Deaths per year: 3,300

Call this one the "Heimlich" section, as these deaths mostly resulted from blockages of the respiratory system by food or other objects.

5. Fires and burns
Deaths per year: 3,700

This would include deaths resulting from fires, such as smoke inhalation, falling beams, and sitting through Backdraft. Ironic that cancer is number two on the total deaths list, and a by-product of smoking is responsible for one of the top causes of accidental deaths. Are we getting the picture that this is a dangerous pastime? What kind of warnings do we have to put on these boxes, anyway?

4. Drowning
Deaths per year: 4,000

This includes all sorts of drownings in boat accidents and those resulting from swimming, playing in the water, falling in, or even having a bath. The human body is what, 70% water? And we begin our lives in a watery environment, there's lots of oxygen in water… what's the deal? Something for the scientists to work on.

3. Poisoning by solids and liquids
Deaths per year: 8,600

These would be all your commonly recognized poisons, as well as such items as mushrooms, shellfish, drug overdoses, and problems with medicines-which is a wide category, and why it is so high on the list. What they leave out is things like food poisoning or salmonella, which they classify as "disease deaths" and place on another list.

2. Falls
Deaths per year: 14,900

Then we come to the America's Funniest Home Videos category of accidental death, including falls from ladders, down stairs, over curbs, off buses, into manholes, and through plate glass windows.

1. Motor vehicle crashes
Deaths per year: 43,200

The winner, by a ridiculously huge (and ever-increasing) margin is: death by car wreck. Head on collision, sideswipe, single-vehicle smash-up, full car rollover, pedestrian takedown, choking on own carsick vomit, spontaneous combustion-the fun never stops for car owners. Try air travel instead; it's much safer. Do you see it anywhere on this list?

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Thursday Market Excerpts

July 7 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold prices logged a modest decline Thursday after spending most of the session posting gains on the heels of the apparent terrorist attacks in London.

The BBC reported that al-Qaida has taken responsibility for the blasts, which began in the morning rush hour.

Officials have confirmed dozens of fatalities and hundreds of injuries.

Against this backdrop, the August gold contract climbed as high as $427.40 an ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange. But it closed down 30 cents at $424.20.

"The shock of the bombings in London appears to be fading pretty quickly, with fundamentals returning to be a more key factor," said Thomas Hartmann, an analyst at Altavest Worldwide Trading. "Lower crude prices certainly are not being supportive of gold, nor has the dollar really budged at all," he said.

Peter Grandich, editor of The Grandich Letter also believes the " 'Don't Worry, Be Happy' crowd that roams Wall Street and much of the financial media" are likely starting to "play down" the blasts in London.

And the latest move is a "concentrated effort by a bear attack that began last Friday," he said, when prices fell over $8 an ounce.

Meanwhile, John Stafford, editor of Stafford's Investment Strategy Letter, called the reversal "G8 manipulation" that "keeps up the false appearance of 'calm'."

-----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

GoldiloxDeath rates#13389007/07/05; 15:35:42

Thank you FED_Reserves,

Interesting, if a bit macabre, statisitcs.

Of course, by your humoresque reasoning, petroleum is by far and away the most lethal substance in the US, especially in mechanical combination with steel!

Interesting that alcohol was not on the list, but it usually escapes under the wire as a mere "contributing factor".

GoldiloxAu support#13389107/07/05; 15:40:48

Strong end-of-day support near 423, as sellers who chased gold below 420 were handed their heads by opportunistic buyers.

Oil was the really strange reactant today, as Lt Sweet was all over the map!

Great Albino BatHow comes Scotland yard knew of attacks and warned B.N?#13389207/07/05; 15:49:42

Very fishy! More 9/11 ops? This helps Blair's I.D. project which is revolting to English tradition.


I do not know where this was posted, but was relayed to me:

"Bibi " should attend the " Israel Opportunity 2005 Conference for International Investors in London " in the Great Eastern Hotel above the Liverpool Street U-station but was forewarned by Scotland Yard not to go ...

FarSight3 -- Thursday, 7 July 2005 , 6:02 a.m.

FarSight3 -- Thursday, 7 July 2005 , 6:26 a.m.

FarSight3 -- Thursday, 7 July 2005 , 6:40 a.m.

FarSight3 -- Thursday, 7 July 2005 , 7:15 a.m.

Great Albino BatCentral Banks want to cheapen gold? Bring 'em on!!!#13389307/07/05; 16:07:39

I picked up a nice batch this week, at $433/oz.

Two can play at this game, Messieurs Central Bankers.

Come again soon, always welcome!


Great Albino BatAttacks softening up the British public for more WAR??#13389407/07/05; 16:12:00

Are the attacks a conditioning of the public mInd for an extension of the war into IRAN?

Al Qaeda is a "cut-out" operation of CIA and MOSSAD, an "enemy" controlled by these elements. No question of that in my mind.


SundeckNow, that is puting it rather well... A little wisdom from TC#13389507/07/05; 16:37:41

I thought that this was worth repeating:

"In the spectrum of human psychology, there are certain people who cannot cope with the notion of randomness or of unrelated or inexplicable events. In order to cope, they simply fabricate connections as necessary to stitch all of the news elements floating around in their own mind into an intricate fabric of interlocking puzzle pieces neatly arranged into a series of causes and effects. He can state something matter-of-factly because that is how he has personally assimilated it into his own understanding; but that doesn't mean there is any actual credibility to the fabric of his story."

Of course, what comes out of some people's mouths or off the ends of their fingers is more complex than TC has described, but that is not a bad start...not bad at all. Individuals and groups have almost infinite facility to delude themselves...



Yes Sir CoBra(too) ...clear days are not always pleasant days...but politics must go on.

Take care

GoldendomeInevitable Crisis -- Manipulated economies#13389607/07/05; 17:21:50

Sir Au-some: We wonder what the good Dr. might have to say about the massive misallocation of capital that maybe brought about by government interference with natural interest rates in supposed free economic systems-- hmm?

We can further ponder the free printing of fiat in these free market systems and the short and long-term effects on the character and morality of those who benefit from the system and those who suffer theft by government inflation. Is a supposed free market economy that manipulates {by government mandates} the monetary system to produce desired results much less socialistic than some other form of socially planned system? Each distorts the economy and each can determine the winners and the losers to a large degree within that country.

The unabashed change in government attitude toward fiat and debt after 1971, and the unfettering of links internationally between dollars and gold has made all the difference in the world.
Unlimited license to print and to spend money can make any economy look pretty good! Heck, even you and I would look pretty good if we could just print it up at will and spend it-- or borrow and spend, and just keep rolling over the increasing debt amount forever.

The curtain on the next act is yet to raise. There has been a large degree of distorted interference in these economies that are traditionally considered to be non-socialistic. We will eventually see how it shakes out.

BoilermakerTC msg 133879, thank you#1338977/7/05; 17:53:40

Yes, there are some who find a way to link their devils to any event that creates calamity. I come from the segment that sees pervasive high level financial and economic corruption in the US and elsewhere but not to the violent level suggested by some recent posters. To suggest that our president knew beforehand of 9/11 is way beyond my credibility limits. Perhaps we will hear that Tony Blair was seen running out of the London underground this morning. Whatever his faults the man is a hero in London for getting the 2012 Olympic games. Lately we've had some posts that reflect paranoia not reason or logic.
J-BullionSilver Stocks#1338987/7/05; 18:16:37

There seems to be a mistake somewhere, as silver stocks are listed as only 91 million ounces as of close today. Yesterday they stood at 103 million or so.

melda laure"... goaded to war..."#1338997/7/05; 18:41:48

Good point Sir Bat! When I saw the "initial" death toll of 33 that was my thought exactly. I dont suppose there are many around that remember the old anarchist days back in the 80s (1880's). A few bombs here and there dont seem to have any lasting effect on the world. As I recall someone got so disgusted with JP Morgan that they parked a horsecart full of explosives in front of THE bank back in 1904 or thereabouts. Killed 30. The stock market opened as usual latter that day. And then there was the rube that thought he could change America by killing president Cleveland (or was it McKinley?). There will always be terrorists and fruitcakes; if our definition of peace is the absence of these few malcontents then there will never be peace nor freedom for authoritarianism has never vanquished disorder since the founding of the world. A few bombs does not constitute war. When Qaddafi wanted to punish Britain over the Pan Am mess he shipped the IRA six TONS of semtex.

The Main

How could those compare to Pearl and the day the British sacked DC? In Tuchman's "The Guns of August" there is a chapter in which a french diplomat begs the brits to "just send us a SINGLE british soldier- we guarantee that he will be killed" (the idea being that his death will make a total intervention politically necessary.)

The patriot act will have a far more lasting effect than the WTC bombings, even if the former is soon forgotten. Today everbody "remembers" the great depression, only gold bugs remember the creation of the federal reserve.

melda laureSundeck, I never did claim to have a solid grip on reality. - wink#1339007/7/05; 18:59:09

Reality changes far too fast for that! But behold, rainy days have come! From atop the meneltarma you can see forever, including the fog banks that hug the coast where most people live. And beyond lies the approaching storm whose clouds obscure the order of battle so that you can not tell where the fleet lies, nor where the sea dragons lurk, nor from which direction the great wave approaches. To have this vantage is a far greater blessing than to know the present disposition of the enemy for that will change, but gold will be standing when the last clouds are parted.
FlaccusSeem to remember talk about this in April's postings, so I looked it up#1339017/7/05; 19:43:11

From the ECB's web page:

The European Central Bank said on Thursday that it had sold 47 tons of gold as part of last year's central bank gold sales agreement, but did not plan any further sales in the next six months.


A handshake and a smile. You can always rely on your central banker.

mikal@GAB#1339027/7/05; 19:49:25

Re: msg 133894
Agree. Except that there is no need for the west to go beyond the stepped up rhetoric against Iran, Syria, Yemen and N Korea- so long as these countries and Al Quada, OPEC, and Iraqi and Afgani insurgents serve as handy scaegoats whenever the markets and financial mood get quiet and spooky, like before 9-11 and this time. It's treason to question the economy, the leadership authorities, etc if you're in a vulnerable poasition of power and some politico wants in on your territory. Extorting favors never looked easier.
Of course, I could be making this all up like that poor fellow on the stole underground gold. (TC/Randy has pegged the rationalizing syndrome well.) But the man's biggest mistake, besides not seeing the big gold picture, was to rant and obsess over his tale, and then to go out with an unprovoked obscenity-laced tirade (which was deleted). I regret to see him him go and hope he can return with a new(or the same) handle. Many do, whether here or at other forums. But mes are tough ad getting tougher in the world, and this makes posting that much more valuable to all.

mikal@GAB - Correction#1339037/7/05; 19:57:31

Last line SHOULD read: "But times are tough and getting tougher..."

Batman you beat me to it -- I agree with your earlier post
(133894).Only the very naive will erase from their memory the FACT that Govts all over the world at different times --have commited Terrorist Acts to accelerate their own agendas eg:

**The French Govt --blowing up the GreenPeace Boat "Rainbow Warrior" at dock in New Zealands Auckland Harbour only a few yrs ago. Only 1 death.
(Very embarrassing as their operatives were caught)

**When the State Department publicly confirmed US support for terrorist attacks on agricultural cooperatives in Nicaragua, Kinsley wrote that we should not be too quick to condemn this official policy. Such international terrorist operations doubtless cause "vast civilian suffering," he conceded. But if they manage "to undermine morale and confidence in the government," then they are "perfectly legitimate." The policy is "sensible" if "cost-benefit analysis" shows that "the amount of blood and misery that will be poured in" yields "democracy". . . .

"Thus the clear message emerging from both officials and the media is that our (i.e., US or US-backed) "terrorism" is fine, as long as the goal is worthy; while their "terrorism," whatever the objective, is criminal and deserving of the harshest possible violent response"

To explore more check this link:

July 7, 2005 -- "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." President James A. Garfield.

News: Six bombs go off in London, subway and transportation is London is halted. A European branch of Al-Qaeda takes credit. Question -- did the bombings occur as a protest against the G-8 meeting? Or against London's winning the 2012 Olympic bid? Did the bombings imply that "we can create havoc in London or New York or Spain or anywhere we choose. Be afraid, be very afraid, because we are the ones who are in control."

The initial reaction to the bombing (last night) was a huge drop in the S&P futures, a three-dollar drop in oil, and a five-dollar rise in gold. All this simmered down by the opening today. The economic fear is that following a disaster of this type, people will cut back on travel (and certainly travel by air), and they will cut back on their spending ("I'm going to stay home where I feel safe").
Further Snip:
"The London bombings will accomplish one thing -- they will provide the rationale for almost any amount of US spending on defense. And you can be sure that Congress will rubber-stamp almost anything the White House and the Department of Defense can come up with -- that is anything calculated to keep us "safe from terrorism."

I've said all along that the Fed cannot depend on consumer spending or corporate expansion to keep the "economic home fires burning." Thus, it will be up to government spending (and damn the budget deficit) to keep the US economy afloat. The London bombing is just what was needed to justify all-out defense spending.

In his final speech, President Eisenhower warned about placing the nation in the hands of the "military-industrial complex." Subscribers, make no mistake about it -- we are there."

GoldiloxLogic and Reason#1339057/7/05; 22:07:10


What exactly constitutes "logic and reason"? For many, it is being redefined by the courage to question authority, their actions, and the motives behind them. It is applying Reagan's "Trust, but Verify" wider than just to percieved enemies.

Like you, I'm not entirely convinced by the most radical conspiracy theories, but instead look for some middle ground between the "official" story and the potential for abuse suggested by investigators.

However, since the SM bubble of post-Y2K, the interaction between the "economic", "political", and overt "military" seem all too closely interwoven, perhaps more so than in previous generations.

Was the invasion of Iraq necesary for regime change, securing oil resources, eliminating Euro support in international transactions, or maybe all of the above? The entire plan of execution and justification for the invasion pre-existed in the Pax Americana documents of 1998, ruining the credibility of the war admin.

Given the perceived necessity, does that excuse the manipulation and dismantling of the US intelligence services to achieve this? The Plame outing by the admin caused mass resignations by the "professional" intelligence officers, as many feared that the new DOI was more interested in "spin" than "intelligence".

Taking it only one step farther, we have yet to see a single piece of evidence linking the WTC event to any real, living "Al Qaeda" people, and in fact, 8 of the named perpetrators are still alive and well in Paris. That does not prove any professional intelligence "colaboration" in the event, but it raises enough questions along with other "evidence" that the investigation should be opened up, regardless of the sources of the information.

After all, if the White House is willing to "expose" a high level CIA agent like Valerie Plame and all her field assets for "purely political" reasons, shouldn't they also be willing to open up their 911 evidence to an unbiased investigation and finally put the myriad questions to rest?

I don't know all the answers, but my sense of fairness and justice demands that the questions be asked and answered.

The irony of all of this cannot escape the Chinese. Reagan and the NeoCons bankrupted the Soviet Union with their massive military-debt build up. Continuing that philosophy to nearly hyperbolic levels has brought the US to a financial "conundrum" that is easily as tenuous, while the Chinese have quietly acquired a strong hold on the purse strings.

GoldendomePicked this out at some obscure site#1339067/7/05; 22:26:40

The Grandich Letter


London Bombings Should Sadly Change the Investing Landscape

....Gold – I have not been a card-carrying member of the "gold is manipulated" fringe group within the metals and mining industry. This is not to say I do not respect what they have to say. But after Friday's trading pattern on the Comex and the opening today, I think I will be contacting them for an application.

Now in my third decade of following the gold market, I believe Friday's trading on the Comex was a "planned" bear raid and not a random coincidence of factors that led to an $8+ decline. With a major holiday weekend upon us, and extremely ill-liquid trading environment, gold suddenly tanked. You can search until the cows come home and not find any legitimate fundamental factor that could have even remotely led longs to suddenly want to liquidate their positions. The fact that this occurred as gold was approaching levels that could have led to a break out on the upside, well???????

Any doubt that there is someone (or a group) currently attempting to get Comex gold prices lower for reasons that the gold manipulation crowd have repeatedly stated for a long time now, left my body this morning. Minutes before gold is set to open on the Comex this morning, it begins to fall and is heavily sold as soon as the bell rings. Did any of the news change that led to the rise just minutes and hours before? Why at 7:20AM EST does the gold community believe gold deserves to be up $5 but in just one hour (and no new news) do players on the Comex hit the ground selling hard and lead gold to be up less than a buck?????..


djacCentral Banker Trichet condolenses Central Bank of England#1339077/7/05; 22:58:19

what's that?
Politicians, the pope and JC Trichet?
Are these guys in the soul-brokerage buisines now?
or what are they accounting 4?
a cheaper currency?

economic models, symbols and reality
gold - hold on to it

debt relief, my proposition
an equal amount of IMF-gold for every newborn child
and by épuisement du stock the IMF goes out of buisines.

GoldiloxNASA "pantsed"#1339087/7/05; 23:59:24

After such a spectacular buildup to the July 4th "deep Impact" event, NASA has released only a few photographs with a "explanations" of the results, even after days to study the results.

Conspicuously missing from their release is any spectral data that would confirm or refute NASA's long-held Whipple theory that comets are big-bang remnants composed mostly of ice and primordial chemicals. Might they be just a bit embarrased?

The pre-impact photos clearly show solid rock formation, with no "steam engine" generating the amounts of vapor necessary to fuel the water vapor tails of Whipple theory. It seems that the Electric Solar System therory is gaining weight.

Scientists like Hoagland, McCanney, and van Flandern are suggesting that the fall of the unassailable comet theory opens NASA up to a lot of questions as to why they have continued "protecting" theories that non-NASA-sponsored researchers have claimed did not "hold water" for decades - pun intended.

The events today in London have completely overshadowed NASA's silence, of course, but as we have seen, even a Martha Stewart trial is enough to divert the media's professional ADHD-style attention.

Hoagland's blog is linked.

TopazFrankly,#1339097/8/05; 02:15:23

Are we getting more and more "Yawn, ho-hum" with these Gleneagles style events?
You can "almost" imagine them organising the whole sheebang ...Meeting, Protesters, Terrorist attacks whatever, simply to galvanise whats left of popular opinion that, for many reasons simply doesn't get it!

Numbers ARE dwindling though.

TopazWall of Worry!#1339107/8/05; 02:38:09

This would have to be a classic WoW Chart. NOBODY is confident in the Buck here, it is just as "weak" now, as it was @ 80.
We may have some time to wait before "exuberance" takes hold.

BelgianLondon's atrocity : opinion#1339117/8/05; 03:50:35

Perfect timing : G-8 + Tony's EU presidency (6 months) !
The global war on oil/gas-control, continues. Tony has become a multi-purpose poodle. The (in)famous "trans-atlantic" bridge. Evolving Euroland within or on the hedge of the AA dominance : Can Tony reconcile (amalgamate) the two (AA-EU) diverging visions on world affairs !?
Will this London 9/11 pull the whole EU into the AA camp !?

This are the political games that are being played on the back of innocent victims.

The AA financial industry and its fraternities (political factions) are backing up, Tony's pré-programmed 6 months.
There is an encouragement of the oilprice-pain !!! The devastating economic effects are to be maximized as to polarize the different visions (EU-AA)(AA= anglo american).
The terror-weaponS (!) are used to divide and align the forming (evolving) global factions >>> AA - Asia - EU - rest. The oil-pricing is about the IMS (intern. mon. system). Soon, the old transatlantic alliance will have only its respective GAAP-debts (Trillions) in common...but both having a different vision on it.

The EU knew it in advance (since 9/11) that the risk of installing a rising level of terror in the EU, was always there ! This has been (still is) dominating the divisions within the EU. Two currency systems (€-$) in competition...euh, war. The London atrocity is simply another step in this evolving business. GOLD's future (its pricing) remains closely connected to how this trans atlantic diversion evolves within the global context of Asia factor and oilpricing.

China, India, Russia, ME (and their satelites) watch how the AA and the EU split or (re-)unite, whilst they continue their efforts to position themselves in the great oil/gas scramble(war).

It's great to see that MK allows us to opinion on the "political" aspects of the goldpricing...PRICING !
Was it significant to see (again) a flight into the euro, with the London bombs...coupled with a firm decline in oilprice !? Euro strength seems to go hand in hand with lower oilprices !? Dollar strength = rising oilprices, wich we see happening (again) at this very moment.

Oil AND euro-numeraire without a country, flag or anthem !?

Oil and euro-numeraire, ... for the time being,... unconnected to the goldpricing !!! Oil and euro strong in gold. And a dollar that still succeeds in remaining less (lesser) strong in gold. Significant, no !?

Yes, there is a goldpricing war going on ! Fixed goldprice (freezing) or MTM goldpricing !!! The London atrocity is one more element in the political theatre that goes with this gold-pricing competition. Greater Asia, ME, Russia (other), have to live, work and die under an $-IMS that is not a system of their choice (preference-?). They are all very familiar with "the" dollar...BUT ALSO WITH GOLD, and its pricing concept.

Of course, the EU can remain divided and weakened...politically ! But can the concept of MTM of goldpricing (freegold) remain frozen !? What does freegold mean for the two main competing numeraires (units of account - €-$)...whatever their respective political context !

Sir Kosares : It is NOT the euro currency that is threathening the $-IMS ...BUT...THE CHANGE IN GOLDPRICING !!! The change in goldpricing REGIME !!! And a new, modern (inevitable)(universal) goldpricing NEEDS AN APPROPIATE NUMERAIRE !!! And the "old" goldpricing regime was...a dollar-designed one. The new goldregime-freegold, is dollar incompatable.
The oilpricing devil cannot be forced back into the toothpaste tube...regardless of how much the € or $ negociates with the oil/gas-owners. There are other, fast growing kids, on the AA/EU globe. Dollar nor euro can continue to tell the whole world what is good for all of us on our decades' history of debt-driven political economy by the means of the common $-IMS. Forcing all the others to accept the principle of a "market-economy", also means (consequently) that oilpricing shouldn't be excluded at our western convience. Let the oil-owners price their wealth as they please and let gold-wealth be MARKED TO THE MARKET, as well.

A declining euro-dollar exchange rate + a further rising oilprice will have negative effects on the (very weak) growth in Euroland and threathen its (ECB) price-stability efforts ! An explosive coctail. Will this aspect force the euro back into the AA camp and provide the (false) (western)multilateral view on global policies !!!???
Can a (re)united (trans atlantic) west, bring the oilprices back down and restore the calm on the financial markets !!!??? And would with this action, the Asia-factor be eliminated ? I strongly doubt that this globe can compromise any further. Tony's six months is a very short period. And the African debt-relief (G-8) is an old farce that cannot cover the real (in)tentions between the different factions (visions-policies). A further stigmatation (diabolisation) of the global islamic community will certainly have serious consequences down the road.

How much goodwill can we keep buying with the shipments (commitments) of gold to the world's goldmetal accumulators !? Sooner or later, the "old" goldpricing system will break and will be the cause of the exploding "old" monetary ($-IMS) regime. A very elegant solution for destroying the giant debt asteroid.

GoldiloxWall of Worry#1339127/8/05; 04:28:59

@ Topaz,

Switching the perspective on your WoW chart to "MAX" tells a different story. The waterfall appears.

In Gold, the six month chart is almost a sine wave. One would think the market is completely benign - until expanding out to 1 year and beyond!

Topaz@G'lox#1339137/8/05; 07:28:58

If it was anything but $X you'd sell it short, all support down to 85 has been kicked out from under it ...overshoot and who knows where it'd stop.
In what might be viewed as the "Last Hurrah", Buck HAS TO appreciate as the appetite of Consumers for imports begins to wane. (less Imported G/S - less though higher valued Dollars exported = constant nett) The end-game does NOT include any rebalancing act whereby US Exports (G/S) might have a role to play we say down here, "it's Sydney or the Bush"

Just my HO G'lox, Linked is a short, sweet article from Mr Pollock via next door.
Have a nice w-end.

GoldiloxNY gold climbs on fund buying early as dollar dips #1339147/8/05; 08:54:21


July 08, 2005 09:21:22 (ET)

NEW YORK, July 8 (Reuters) - Gold futures in New York advanced on Friday, after briefly slipping to their lowest level in five weeks as the dollar rose after the U.S. jobs report for June.

But, with a subsequent sell-off in the dollar, gold recovered and looked to be darting around within a well-worn range between $420 and $440 an ounce again, after shedding prior gains linked to London's fatal blasts on Thursday.

Dealers said overnight speculative short selling and long liquidation quickly fizzled after the payrolls data.

"The funds came in and bought it after the unemployment number came out," said a COMEX gold floor trader. "That number sort of killed the dollar rally."

August gold ((GCQ5)) on the COMEX division of the New York Mercantile Exchange was up $1 at $425.20 an ounce by 9:53 a.m. EDT, after earlier sliding to $422.30.

Traders said clear direction was absent from the market and gold was still in a general sideways pattern, though it could make sharp moves in either direction before the weekend.


Gnus from the pits! More crab-wise movement in PMs, although the HUI is up again today.

GoldiloxBLS: Cooking in Plain Sight#1339157/8/05; 09:06:16


Happy Hype Day! Look for the market to go up on reports that go like this one: "Hiring around the country picked up slightly in June with employers adding 146,000 jobs -- helping to push the unemployment rate down to 5 percent, the lowest in nearly four years."

Well, not quite. You know about the Birth-Death Model which the Bureau of Labor Statistics uses to "correct" it's employment figures, right? So this morning I get a summary from a hawk-eyed reader who sees BLS headlines and then goes looking for the statistical chain which has been jerked to get the numbers reported:

"BLS says 146,000 new jobs in June 05, but 184,000 of those jobs came from the CES birth-death model.

The CES model must take into account all those new independent contractors created when employees get canned by GM and so many others."

If you doubt and need the source this statistically hip reader cited, check the following BLS chart: (see URL)

To our way of reading, that would imply that the economy lost 18-thousand jobs in the period, not the 146,000 gain which the wet nurse media report. And our favorite number, the U-6 table under Alternative measures of Labor Underutilization reflected a jump from 8.6% to 9.3% from May. That said, now you know how to read the official press "happy talk" release about June's job numbers


George's insightful analysis, as always, is linked to the raw BLS report at his site.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Since 1973 -- Proven Reliability, Longevity, Quality and Professionalism ---- Invest with Confidence!!#1339167/8/05; 09:13:13

GoldiloxSquareGain#1339177/8/05; 09:31:39

Now that SquareGain has replaced comdirect, have any of the well-read cartophiliacs lingering about figured out if the real-time resources for PM quotes is still available on their site? Or is it time to link some new ones?

Lazy and buzy are my excuses , , ,


TownCrierInternet chatroom helps keep City of London open#1339187/8/05; 10:19:05

LONDON, July 8 (Reuters) - A secret Internet chatroom run by Britain's financial regulators helped keep London's financial markets open after Thursday's bomb blasts, while financial firms activated security measures in case of further attacks.

The Bank of England, the Treasury and the Financial Services Authority switched on a secure section of their Financial Sector Continuity Web site to talk to major banks operating in the City of London's financial hub about how they were coping.

"In the light of yesterday's events the tripartite authorities (Treasury, Bank of England and FSA) have activated the contingency part of the Web site," they said on Friday.

The site, set up after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center in New York, allows regulators to coordinate and communicate with the financial services sector if there is a devastating event...

The Web site has a secure section where the authorities can communicate directly with big banks that are key to the stability of the international financial system.

The City of London's financial markets, where currencies, stocks, bonds and commodities worth trillions of dollars are traded daily, kept going despite disruption from the blasts.

"Contingency planning by banks has increased considerably in last three years, post September 11, and what yesterday shows is that the planning has worked," said David Key, crises management practice leader...

"There has also been a move away from the traditional focus on security towards risk management, or understanding the threat and developing resilience," he said.

^------(see url for full article)------^

When you fully understand that money is merely data, you finally realize how very vulnerable you potentially could be to chaos in the financial/telecommunications network.

A solid plan for developing your personal resistence is to choose tangible gold as a hefty portion of your savings. Call USAGOLD-Centennial today to begin a diversification program that's right for you.


GoldiloxLunacy Prevails#1339197/8/05; 12:52:51

Listening to the "business news" in the car this morning, I heard a caller ask what to do with a couple thousand silver bullion coins his dad (who he explained away as a Depression era kid) left him. He complained, "they're just sitting there, not making me any money."

I guess he hasn't noticed that silver rose from $4.50 to $7 in the short time since his dad passed.

Too bad the father didn't pass on the meaning of his experience to the son.

To add insult to injury, the analyst on the radio suggested he sell them and buy gold and silver funds!


osa104cThe CRUDE Factor #1339207/8/05; 13:03:40

Approximately 8.1 million use heating oil as their main heating fuel. Residential space heating is the primary use for heating oil, making the demand highly seasonal. Most of the heating oil use occurs during October through March. The area of the country most reliant on heating oil is the Northeast

Some customers try to beat rising winter prices by filling their storage tanks in the summer or early fall when the prices are likely to be lower. However, most homeowners do not have large enough storage tanks to store the full amount needed to meet winter demands. Because homeowners may have to refill their tanks as often as 4 or 5 times during the heating season, possible rising or spiking prices are a concern.

Heating oil prices paid by consumers are determined by the cost of crude oil, the cost to produce the product, the cost to market and distribute the product, as well as the profits (sometimes losses) of refiners, wholesalers and dealers. The distribution and marketing costs accounted for 46 percent of the cost of a gallon of heating oil. The next largest component, crude oil, accounted for approximately 42 percent of the cost of a gallon of heating oil. Lastly, refinery processing costs account for another 12 percent.

Reasonable forshadowing::....Refinery prices will rise DRAMATICALLY, as crude oil prices rise.....Transportation, security.....Disruption Insurance???....Just another puzzle piece of the super spike hypothesis.....


osa104cRiding Shotgun#1339217/8/05; 15:31:39

As I double dip, let me add.....Gold was commonly transported for monetary exchange, (payroll, currency disbursement)......Parties rode shotgun to protect their interests.........America riding shotgun with dollars, covering the tankers will not fly much longer........GOLD is the new gun guarding this commodity.............welcome aboard the "flight train"......................hold on to your pants...
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Friday Market Excerpts

July 8 (from DowJones) -- The New York precious metals complex finished the "quietest day of the week" slightly mixed Friday, with gold's focus turning back to its longtime correlation with the euro against the U.S. dollar, traders said.

August gold tended to rise and fall with the single European currency, before the metal finally finished with a loss of 40 cents to $423.80.

"It was the quietest day of the week," said one trader.

"We saw gold starting to track the euro again. But to be frank, there was not a lot of volume."

Several other traders and analysts also cited the euro/dollar relationship as the main factor fueling gold's price action during the day.

Earlier this summer, there had been some decoupling of this correlation.

"We pretty much followed the dollar around," said Frank Lesh, futures analyst with Rand Financial Services. "The dollar was up when we (gold futures) were down. And it (gold) moved down when the dollar was up. That was about it."

COMEX August gold futures fell to a low of $422.30 in the immediate aftermath of the U.S. jobs report, when the euro slid to its $1.1876 low. But as the euro was moving to its high for the day of $1.1986 around midmorning, August gold was likewise hitting its high of $425.80.

The euro then gave back some of its gains during the last few hours of the trading day, fetching $1.1937 as gold closed, down slightly from $1.1950 late Thursday. Gold likewise drifted back down to finish with a 40-cent loss.

-----(see url for full news, 24-hr live newswire)----

TownCrierOil holds near $61 on hurricane, economy#1339237/8/05; 15:54:49

(Reuters) Jul. 8, 2005 - Oil prices held near $61 a barrel on Friday as financial markets shrugged off the impact of London's bomb attacks and as a hurricane approached U.S. Gulf oil facilities.

The announcement by OPEC of the resumption of talks to consider raising output limits for the second time in a month did little to undermine prices.

^----(from url)----^

Hallmarks of a "brave new world".


melda laure(No Subject)#1339247/8/05; 20:20:49

Hoagland's comments on the south african carbon spheroids reminded me of Vusamazulu's stories. There's a story about some geologist that giving a report to Kruger, his aside to his wife: "Come Mama! Meet the nice man who was here when God created africa!" Sir boilermaker, I readily admit some of my assertions make me look like an idiot; I try to call them stories, and name the author but sometimes I forget.

Some facts are simple, eg: Gold is rare and precious. It is easy to buy gold.

Oil at 60$+ is a fact which can not be hidden no matter how many times they repeat "it's lower than the inflation adjusted peak of $90". Sixty dollar oil is a more disturbing fact than all the bombs of Al Queda whether they kill 33 (as initially reported) or 3300.

Some facts require careful examination eg: 19 al queda hijackers carried out the WTC bombings. It is hard to punish Al Queda: they have ein fuher, but where ist der volk, und der heimat?

I'll stick with simple.

Meanwhile, does anybody know if these gentlemen have decided to dump gold to save africa from debt and disease?

GoldiloxTick tock, tick tock the Chinese are about to clean the US's clock#1339257/9/05; 00:19:40


China is presently bidding or has purchased three major US businesses. This is a neat way to dump dollars. Keep in mind that Chinese companies are not publicly traded, they are government entities – surprise, surprise. This is why when a Chinese company bids dollars for US companies it is very much a dump dollar asset producing game. We are two months into a negative inflow versus the US Trade Deficit TIC report. So it will require a miracle to keep the dyke from leaking on a third consecutive TIC report of less incoming funds into the US than the US Trade Deficit. If it is not this month, it will be coming soon.


It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Chinese, who hold 30% of the purse strings for the US treasury, do not win any financial skirmish.

GoldiloxOil as a economic "driving" force - pun intended #1339267/9/05; 00:28:07


The price of oil is an inflationary disaster because it percolates through heavy industries and impacts consumers as their lines of credit become over extended. If you can keep business activity at a high level, which it will do in the face of high energy prices, the dollar will die a natural death. Those that will benefit from the well timed attack in London include the energy industry - due to increased risk premiums - Daddy Warbucks and the defense industry, Authoritarian Free Enterprise's birthing process, Russia, the Middle East and al Qaeda, although not necessarily in that order.


As I heard on Comedy Central tonight, "OK, we conquered an oil producing country and the price of oil tripled. Whassup with that?"

Perhaps we should have given away an oil producer so the price would fall instead - I guess our friends in China are really trying to help us out with their generous UnoCal offer.

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mikalHeadline Roundup#1339297/9/05; 10:37:06

Bearish look at bubble - SF Gate (7/8/2005 5:29 AM)["Bearish"! How daring!]
Colorado developer buys downtown block - Houston Chronicle (7/8/2005 8:31 AM) [Carion soon to visit suburbia en masse]
Mortgage rates post gains across board - CNN/Money (7/8/2005 8:34 AM)[The mortgage rate doll bobs it's little head, entreating "watch the doll, keep your on the doll"]
For U.S. newspapers, paper prices add to problems - Reuters (7/9/2005 6:39 AM) [Newspaper icons pine for state subsidies in the age of "information"]
Moody's says may cut GM to junk status - Reuters (7/7/2005 2:48 PM)[Hedge funds cower behind the spin]
China Oil Giants Crave Respectability and Power - NY Times (7/9/2005 6:39 AM)[China oil giants HAVE respectability and power]
ECB's Weber Says Inflation Risks Increased Since June - Bloomberg (7/8/2005 5:17 AM)[Rate INCREASES loom vs rate CUTS]
Snow Visits U.S.'s Biggest Oil Supplier: It's Not Saudi Arabia - Bloomberg (7/8/2005 5:18 AM)[Smoke and mirrors- oil and terrorism is the source of all maladies]
The Plaza Accord Nightmare China Must Avoid - Pesek, Bloomberg (7/8/2005 5:19 AM)
With Eye to China, Malaysians Ponder Revaluation - NY Times (7/8/2005 5:27 AM)
Who Cares About Inflation? - Norris, NY Times (7/8/2005 5:25 AM)

mikalProofreading post facto#1339307/9/05; 10:41:27

"watch the doll, keep your EYE on the doll" [and OFF the slip]
mikalLukoil "the friendly giant"?#1339317/9/05; 11:24:54

Russian Oil Giant Moving In - Deborah Yao - AP -
July 9, 2005 - Excerpt: "PHILADELPHIA — Lukoil, Russia's largest oil company, has launched a marketing offensive to put its name on gas stations across the U.S. and become as well known here as it is at home.
Over the past five years, OAO Lukoil (pronounced luke-oil) has entered the U.S. market by acquiring about 1,300 Getty gas stations and 800 Mobil locations in the Northeast. It is converting them to its brand and recently launched advertising to introduce itself to consumers in 13 states.
The company plans to keep acquiring assets in the U.S., the world's biggest consumer of oil. The Moscow-based conglomerate is the largest oil producer, refiner and distributor in Russia and second in the world in proven oil and natural-gas reserves, behind ExxonMobil.
"It is our hope that other major acquisitions will become available as the petroleum sector continues its consolidation," said Vadim Gluzman, president and chief executive of Lukoil Americas Holding, the oil giant's U.S. arm in East Meadow, N.Y."
[As Russians look to acquire more assets, China and other developing countries can expect similar opportunities, political ideology notwithstanding IMO. The linked Associated Press article is overlong but humorous in the
lengths it goes to represent, even patronize Lukoil and it's spokesmen- they're convinced they can position the company and brand name in the US, as "friendly" vs competing oil giants.]

GoldiloxLukoil (not Luck -oil?) and UnoChina#1339327/9/05; 11:56:48

@ mikal,

So, let me get this straight, failing to maintain the cold war threat of "nuking" the US, the current Russian regime has evolved its strategy to "luking" the US?

Added to the oil patch "action" is Asia, I'd say the US oil admin is either gambling away its hold on world oil resources, or trading US markets to globalist interests for "war support".

If we thought that Chevron, Exxon, et al, were prone to gouging the US retail customer at every opportunity, wait until the Chinese and Russians establish their retail footholds. To whom will we complain about "price gouging" then?

No wonder Jim Rogers "strongly suggests" we learn Chinese. It will likely be the official language of customer service in the coming decade.

mikal@Goldilox, it's a gas!#1339337/9/05; 13:40:43

Re: "Gouging" Well said. How many ways can they have us over a barrel?
But I think we consumers might have postponed that problem
for at least seven generations! You see, we really hold the cards in this game. There's almost unlimited mileage in our Shell and Lucky oil cards and only a phone call stands between us and our next credit limit increase. Big oil is REALLY pushing their luck.

GoldiloxOil Credit-mileage#1339347/9/05; 15:00:56

@ mikal,

Perhaps, but like free mileage fom the airlines, the "free lunch" has to end somewhere. I retired with 1M+ airline miles, but have only been able to use them at "double" rates, because the "saver" seats are always taken, no matter how many months in advance I try to reserve my seat.

Who will be lacking a chair when the music stops?

YGMIgnore Trade Wars & Any War Talk.....All Smoke & Mirrors#1339357/9/05; 15:21:11

They're all (globalists) in bed together if the truth be known. What a laugh now Russia (Putin) is now talking "Be careful w/ anti terrorist laws affecting the honest citizens" We could lose rights. LOL this coming from Russia??? The only war being waged in the world is the one against honest money (Gold) and the working class people. Trust our paper promises "OR ELSE".

Check this signal out....

Sino-US-Saudi oil refinery JV launched
By Wang Ying and Hu Meidong (China Daily)
Updated: 2005-07-09 08:50

China's largest oil refining and ethylene integrated joint venture was officially launched on Friday in Quanzhou, East China's Fujian Province.

A combined investment between Sinopec, ExxonMobil and Saudi Aramco, the new Fujian petrochemical complex will be able to produce 12 million tons of refined oil and 800,000 tons of ethylene annually by 2008, with new facilities to be added to the existing 4-million-ton-per-annum oil refining unit.

The three parties signed the joint venture contract on Friday and work on the site's infrastructure has begun.

Fujian Refining & Chemical Co Ltd, a subsidiary of Asia's largest oil refiner Sinopec, owns a 50 per cent stake in the new utility, with ExxonMobil and Saudi Aramco controlling 25 per cent each.

Besides oil refining and ethylene production, the giant complex also includes other facilities to yield polyethylene, polypropylene and para-xylene products. It also has supporting infrastructure, such as a 300,000-ton dock.

Saudi Aramco will supply crude oil from the world's largest oil exporter Saudi Arabia for the refining facilities. The three investors are also about to set up a refined oil retailing company in Fujian Province to sell refined oil produced by the under-construction petrochemical complex.

Leaders from the three investors yesterday declined to give detailed information about the oil retailing joint venture.

Both central and local government officials have attached great importance to the Fujian project since negotiations started in 1995.

Jia Qinglin, chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference's National Committee, said in a letter of congratulations that the petrochemical joint venture is expected to contribute to advancing China's petrochemical industry as well as boosting the regional economy.

"The advanced technology, reasonable product portfolio and robust market demand within Fujian Province will ensure a competitive success for our three-party joint venture," Wang Tianpu, president of Sinopec, told a news briefing before the ground-breaking ceremony in Fuzhou, capital city of Fujian Province.

Boasting business relations with China for over 100 years, ExxonMobil sees the Fujian project as "a significant milestone" to continue its business involvement with China in the long term, said E.G. Galante, the company's senior vice-president.

Saudi Aramco said through the world-class Fujian petrochemical joint venture the company will continue to work with Sinopec.

GoldiloxSmoke and Mirrors#1339367/9/05; 17:27:36


I think when the talk is about all-out Cuba-style embargos, it's definitely poppycock. On the other hand, the posturing is pretty predominant, and usually leads to "trade agreements" that favor one special interest group over another. In this way, I think it qualifies as more than smoke and mirrors.

GoldiloxDollar rally losing strength#1339377/9/05; 17:35:16


Today's release of the COT data reveals a continuation of the staggering build-up in the spec long positions which show no sign of abating. What we are witnessing is, in my opinion, a near manic condition in which we really do have a massive imbalance of positions among the speculators.
As you and I have both repeatedly stated, specs can build positions larger than many people can envision and that makes fading them quite dangerous when it comes to taking contrarian positions in a market based solely on the COT data. However, there does come a time when we really do have the proverbial situation that occurs in which the majority of specs are piled over on one side of the boat. That being said, I believe we have reached such a point in the dollar and are close to the tipping point.

I say this based not just on the sheer size of the imbalance but also on the market internals which reveal a loss of upward momentum in the dollar.

I am not saying that a dollar top is imminent within the next few days. What I am saying is that the conditions are ripe for such a top to occur and for a hard sell-off to take place. All it will take is either an extraneous event or further continued stalling at this level which will trip the indicators over to the sell side. When that occurs, the trading funds, which live or die by their black boxes, will simultaneously and unthinkingly head for the exits, precipitating a real "religious" experience for any of those who happen to be on the wrong side.

It goes without saying that such an event will put a strong tail wind into the gold market and could very well be the spark which takes us through overhead resistance near the $440-$445 region.

The current dollar rally, when the sell-off finally does occur, will be then seen for what it is and was – a short covering rally induced by Fed and Wall Street spinners which fed on itself due to the poor timing by European officials on the EU Constitution vote.

Perversely, the dollar rally will only serve to have further worsened America's chronic Current Account Deficit.


The rubber bands get wound tighter and tighter! Will they spin their way to dollar flight or snap during the windup?

The Invisible HandSoros: Revolution within six to nine months#1339387/9/05; 19:56:11,6903,1525013,00.html

[Soros] sees trouble brewing: in a divided and bickering European Union (with possible long-term implications for the single currency); or in Russia, where Vladimir Putin's version of democracy has become such a 'sham' that, by all rights, he should no longer have a seat at the G8 table. China, a society that has been 'opening' in response to a globalised economy, could now be heading for a trade war, he says, with a newly nationalistic America. 'Either it revalues the currency, or you're going to have a trade war,' says Soros. 'Either way they're going to decide within the next six to nine months.'
... Soros favours reform of the European Union's Common Agricultural Policy. But Europe, he says, is 'in crisis ... because of the tensions now, the differences between Blair and Chirac are so glaring that nothing - nothing - can be agreed. And I think it's going to get worse before it gets better - and it may never get better.'
At least for now, the EU has also turned its back on the idea of acting as a single, coherent political entity, says Soros, a development which may also haven an impact on the euro.,6903,1525009,00.html
A warning from history
The famous slump on Wall Street in 1929 was followed by signs of recovery that punters thought would lead to a new bull market. Only in 1930-31 did it become apparent that the world was in the throes of a prolonged and deep depression. Likewise, 1987 is instructive: share prices were overheating, but it took a hurricane, not stern words from the Bank of England, to knock the market off its perch - and then a year for prices to recover.
More recently, consider what happened after 9/11. Trading on Wall Street was suspended; there were falls in the days following and then an extraordinary 20 per cent bounce in the next six months. Thereafter, the American market fell amid high-profile corporate disasters and growing panic in the run-up to the Iraq war.
I am not arguing that the terror attacks on London will dislocate the British economy, far less our national spirit - although in London itself there will be local damage to tourism this summer and consequently to retail sales, which have been in the doldrums for a over a year.
Alarm is growing over an oil price of $60 a barrel, and as we reported last week this could go to $100 by winter.

GoldendomeSir Invisible: Before the Storm.#1339397/9/05; 21:23:29

Yes, Sir Invisible: We see a splitting apart of the European factions like the fractionating of crude oil into it's various chemical components that takes place in the great distillation towers round the world. We see that on Friday crude traders bid oil down on prospects that Hurricane Dennis would swing easterly up the west coast of Florida and away from the oil and gas facilities. Could they be wrong? It looks now like Dennis is set to barrel in on similar course as last year's Ivan (right up the gut). Dennis could be upgraded to category 4, as compared to Ivan's category 3. Look out Monday. Gasoline unleaded is already $2.50 per. in Seattle. Gasoline on top of previously contracted debt IS, IS, slowing retail sales in all other sectors. I Know, I'm in the other sectors! I see it, Now!!!
YGMThe Invisible Hand #1339407/9/05; 21:24:49

I am often left wondering why, after the shortening of Market trading hrs subsquent to 9/11 they all returned to normal but for Gold. From my understanding the hrs are still shortened by 2.5 hrs. No hue and cry from anyone?
Great Albino Bat"What's good for the goose, is good for the gander" - right?#1339417/9/05; 22:10:14

A poster at a neighboring forum had this to say about the purchase of UNOCAL by CNOOC:

"My only caveat is if the PRC is giving no or low interest rate loans to CNOOC, this should be reconsidered. It is far too easy for a central bank to create the money out of thin air and purchase actual, producing assets."

So easy to criticize others, for what your side is doing 24/7!

The FED is creating mountains of dollars, out of nothing, with which the US economy buys everything under the sun, in whatever amount and at whatever price at any time. But when these dollars are to COME HOME, "Oh NO! We can't have that!"

The US is apparently immune to high oil prices. One explanation may be, that since all it takes is more dollars to get a barrel, why, PRINT MORE OF THE DAMN STUFF and get over it!

Big question: How long is this racket going to last? BIS is making noises, saying "This can't go on" but - no action.

Doubtless very few will agree with me, but my view is that the world's Super Power is NOT the USA, but Israel which runs the USA. Israel aims at world domination as promised to them by their religion. Who can oppose its aims? Not Europe. Not the USA, under Israeli control; Russia - perhaps; Iran - definitely opposed and to be attacked, soon; North Korea - defiant but small potatos; Japan - under USA control; Australia - within the Israeli orbit; Canada - of little importance; Latin America - spiritually oppposed but materially a weak opponent; Africa - asleep; Islamic countries - definitely opposed and the current object of warfare, result to be seen; India - I have no knowledge; SE Asia - unsufficient knowledge, but as Moslems, opposed spiritually; that leaves: CHINA! 80% of Chinese belong to one single family, the HAN family.

China has had its fill of being cut up and exploited by foreign powers, and has come into its own upon the world stage.

The big showdown to come, is between Israel and its satellites (of which, the USA is one - Sorry!) and CHINA. All else is incidental.


Golden LionheartIsrael...............#1339427/9/05; 22:36:26

GAB - I agree with you 100% about Israel.
GoldiloxSatellites and Foreign Aid#1339437/9/05; 23:18:03

@ GAB,

Whether Israel is a US satellite or vice-versa can be argued ad nauseum. There is a simple reason the order is not as important as the relationship itself.

Consider how a fairly minor Miami voting block has succeeded in maintaining the Cuban embargo all these years in return for their block vote.

The Jewish-Evangelical vote have an infinitely stronger hold on Congress than the minor Cuban refugee block. The Jewish agenda is, of course, "security" for Israel, where the more radical Evangelicals want to hasten an Armegeddon that they fervently believe will usher in destruction of democracy by a Monarchy of their "savior".

The most obvious evidence is found in the "Foreign Aid" budget. Israel, a strong, profitable modern economy receives $billions in "aid"- more than all the other countries combined. Does a perfectly functioning economy really require the lion's share of "developmental" aid? - no it's actually made up of high-tech surveillance and weapons - guaranteed business for the M-I contractors.

Second on the list is Egypt, whose economy is also functioning, but not at Israeli levels. Many believe the Egyptian aid is for two purposes beyond "humanitarian aid".

1) A bribe to Arab powers to keep them from pursuing the Palestinian issue any more fervently.
2) Arms to feed the Arab powers and revolutionaries - continuing Arab-Israeli buldup in a "cold war" model.

The bottom line is that so little "Foreign Aid" is actually humanitarian that it is a cruel joke. All around the world, US Aid, IMF loans, WB "development funds" are all made up of armaments to keep the local ruling juntas comfortably in power - and trading their natural resources for continued support.

Thus we get the Orwellian term "humanitarian aid".

mikalEU Constitution symbolizes solidarity to some#1339447/10/05; 12:28:24 Luxembourg Vote Approves EU Referendum - BBC - July 10, 2005
mikalControversial barrier approved#1339457/10/05; 12:48:43 Israel Approves Jerusalem Barrier - BBC - July 10, 2005
The cabinet set a deadline for completion of the nearly 500 mile project by September 1, 2005. It will seperate the West Bank from East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as a future state.

Great Albino BatThe RUN ON GOLD IS ON!#1339467/10/05; 13:05:02

"Each day the euro becomes a more fiat currency. Again, the ECB, the European Central Bank, has announced another sale of 108 million euros of gold last week, 10.3 tons. It suggests the ECB will have to cease or disguise sales well before the second year of the current Washington Accord, which starts in October. Over the past five weeks sales have averaged 11.9 tons, almost double the average maximum quarterly possible."

This, from Chapman's International Forecaster (see link) confirms what I have stated before at this Forum:

There is a RUN ON GOLD AT THE ECB. When a Bank has to sell assets (gold), to protect the value of its Bills in Circulation (Euros) that is by definition, a RUN ON THE BANK BY THE PUBLIC, TO REDEEM THE BILLS IT IS HOLDING.

We are witnessing a classic Bank Run! It makes no difference that the ECB has no formal commitment to maintain a gold value of the Euro: if the public sees that the gold obtainable with one Euro is falling, the public will want to exchange massive amounts of Euro for gold.

(Some numbers: One ounce of gold in Euros, latest price: E353.23. That is, E 11.3579/gram, or one Euro = .088 gram.

At E360, that is E 11.5756/gram, or one Euro = .08639 gram.

So, as the price of gold in Euros rises, you get less gold per Euro.)

That dreaded situation must be prevented! SELL GOLD to stop the run! But, the selling will NOT stop the run. The run will continue and the ECB will have to continue selling its gold until it comes to a point where a terrible decision must be taken: STOP SELLING! (Either to conserve what remains, or because there is no more gold to sell.)

At that point, the Euro price of gold will rise and rise and rise, and affect the Euro/$ exchange rate, and all Hell will break loose as the International Monetary Process falls apart.

The run is in its early stages, but it has begun. Get your gold stash in possession, time is running out.


YGMWhen there is a run on Gold.#1339477/10/05; 14:43:02

It will be the Central Banks leading the charge. At the end of the day CB's only value two things. Gold & collateral on loans. (ie; Land & material assets of worth) You can bet your bottom paper nothings the BIS and others (CB's like the Fed) are not going to be left holding all their own worthless paper in any currency collapse or devaluation of a G-8 nation. It isn't J6P buying all that Gold from the big miners every year
BoilermakerEuropean Demographics#1339487/10/05; 16:01:38

"Europe becomes more and more a province of Islam, a colony of Islam." So declares Oriana Fallaci in her new book, La Forza della Ragione, or, "The Force of Reason." And the famed Italian journalist is right: Christianity's ancient stronghold of Europe is rapidly giving way to Islam.

Two factors mainly contribute to this world-shaking development.

The hollowing out of Christianity. Europe is increasingly a post-Christian society, one with a diminishing connection to its tradition and its historic values. The numbers of believing, observant Christians has collapsed in the past two generations to the point that some observers call it the "new dark continent." Already, analysts estimate Britain's mosques host more worshippers each week than does the Church of England.

An anemic birth rate. Indigenous Europeans are dying out. Sustaining a population requires each woman on average to bear 2.1 children; in the European Union, the overall rate is one-third short, at 1.5 a woman, and falling. One study finds that, should current population trends continue and immigration cease, today's population of 375 million could decline to 275 million by 2075.To keep its working population even, the E.U. needs 1.6 million immigrants a year; to sustain the present workers-to-retirees ratio requires an astonishing 13.5 million immigrants annually."

I've seen some rhetoric here suggesting that Israel has world manipulation and domination in mind. I'm sure there are Jewish financial and political leaders that can be identified with that effort. However, it's just not in the cards for such a tiny country and religion to be a serious threat to the larger powers. There are about 14 million Jews living in the world today. I'm not worried that they will try to rule us. I think they're more concerned about avoiding annihilation. Further, I find it extremely unlikely Israel orchestrates US policy from one administration to the next. Jews in the US vote Democratic no matter who's running for president.

Isn't it ironic that the Jewish population in Western and Northern Europe has declined from 9.5 million in 1933 to about 1.6 million today while at the same time the Muslim population in that area has increased from nearly nil to about 13 million today. I wonder if the average Brit, German or Frenchman is comfortable with that change.
I think most of us are familiar with the reasons for decline in the European Jewish population. It didn't happen by chance. It's not likely that Muslims can be so easily removed. There are just too many of them, they take their religion seriously and they control too much oil.
The US is lucky that the bulk of its immigration, legal and illegal, has been Hispanic Christians. This is no small matter. The gulf between Islam and Judeo-Christian culture is massive.

GoldendomeSir Gab: Do gold sales support falling fiats?#1339497/10/05; 16:29:02

Sir GAB: Why didn't the long steady slide in the dollar, that only ended recently, prompt the U.S. to to sell Gold in order to protect the value of our bills in circulation, as you state the Europeans are doing? Is there a double standard in place? As far as we know, the U.S. has not liquidated any of it's gold since the closing of Gold Exchange standard in 1971, has it?

It has long seemed a curious circumstance that many gold holding nations around the world have supposedly sold gold over the years (though the buyers seem to be never announced). Yet, the U.S. seems insulated from these sales, as though our dollar is still...good as gold...though no one seems to know how much is really in the vaults--nor do they seem to do the math on dollars outstanding versus the gold that they may still erroneously believe still backs them.

GoldiloxWorld Domination - or just comfortable complicity?#1339507/10/05; 17:07:49

As one of the posters that you seem to think suggested "Israeli World Domination" (something I didn't see mentioned in any of the posts), let me reply:

Your quote: "However, it's just not in the cards for such a tiny country and religion to be a serious threat to the larger powers"

completely overlooks the more important evidence that Evangelicals, the US Congress, and the admin are eating out of Israel's hand financially. For "not" participating in the Iraqi war effort, Israel received $10 billion in "thanks" from the admin over an above their annual $3B handout. Not a bad "thank you" gift for a such a "tiny country".

It's not necessary to dominate the population numbers game when "friends" are bankrupting themselves to throw $billions of "aid" at economically healthy allies.

Take that $10B and the $30B offered the Turks to erect a single air base, and the lackluster US business investment might show some signs of life. That's a pretty sizeable number to invest in "alternative energy" to approach a meaningful effort.

While the admin is so lavishly fertilizing allies with "war spoils", BLS estimates suggest that upwards of 14 million US workers now hold the position of "under-utilized labor", even while the singular hope of re-employment potential comes from the "population model" of the BLS computer algorithm.

There are a lot of EE's floating around (whose jobs went to India) that could offer great insight into alternative energy if research was supported by more than admin "hot air".

Great Albino BatGoldendome: Do gold sales support falling fiats?#1339517/10/05; 17:57:43

Sir Goldendome:

You ask hard questions, to answer which, requires information which is VERY closely guarded.

Evidently, the ECB is selling gold at a rate which, if persisted in, will exhaust the maximum amount it pledged to sell before September 30th 2005.

Why? The gold price of an ounce, in Euros, was lately well over Euros 360. A RUN on the ECB, whose object is to obtain GOLD, is ON. The ECB MUST stop that run!

The only thing it can do to diminish interest in gold - to quell the run - is to get the price down. And the only way it can do that, is by selling gold.


The USA.

We do not know how much gold is still in Ft. Knox and other "deep storage" (sic).

There HAS been a long campaign to keep the price of gold down, in Dollars, and it may well have exhausted the Treasury - and even the stocks of other countries holding their tranches at the Fed in N.Y.

"But to sell the stocks of others, held for them in N.Y. - that would be, why - illegal!!"

"So it would, my little chickadee, so it would. But when the US Dollar dies, it's also the death of the USA, so, it doesn't make much difference if it's illegal or not."


TownCrierFeatured at the DMR: Gold May Rise as Terror Concern Boosts Appeal of Metal#1339527/10/05; 18:40:14

July 11 (Bloomberg) -- Gold rose as much as $5.60 on July 7 after blasts killed about 50 people, the worst attack on London since World War II...

A group calling itself the al-Qaeda Organization in Europe has claimed responsibility for the bombings and warned Italy and Denmark may be next.

"If there is another attack soon, gold will go up and stay there," said Carlos Perez-Santalla, president of Hudson River Futures in New York, a metals trading company. "The London attacks would be seen as not just a one-shot deal, but the start of something bigger."

The U.S. has raised its terror threat level to ``high'' from "elevated" for public transit systems. Italy has stepped up security at tourist sites, and France increased border patrols and quadrupled military forces patrolling public areas.

...Gold also may get a boost from the surge in crude-oil, which reached a record $62.10 a barrel in New York on July 7 and is up 48 percent from a year ago. Higher energy costs have fueled concern about an acceleration of inflation.

Oil may extend gains this week as Hurricane Dennis threatens to disrupt U.S. supplies in the Gulf of Mexico...

^-----(from url)----^

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mikal"Free Trade" agreement for multinationals and bureaucrats threatens jobs, freedoms#1339537/10/05; 19:56:25

"CAFTA" Means Codex - FMN Staff - July 10, 2005
CAFTA(Central American Free Trade Agreement) will be voted on this week by the House after passing the Senate. Ron Paul has said that vitamins could come under the jurisdiction of the World Trade authorities. NAFTA had much greater support yet it's failure may help doom CAFTA.

exponentiallarger power(s) controlled by a tiny country#1339547/10/05; 22:18:55


In a lengthy article in The American Conservative criticizing the rationale for the projected U.S. attack on Iraq, the veteran diplomatic historian Paul W. Schroeder noted (only in passing) "what is possibly the unacknowledged real reason and motive behind the policy — security for Israel." If Israel's security were indeed the real American motive for war, Schroeder wrote,

"It would represent something to my knowledge unique in history. It is common for great powers to try to fight wars by proxy, getting smaller powers to fight for their interests. This would be the first instance I know where a great power (in fact, a superpower) would do the fighting as the proxy of a small client state."

Is there any evidence that Israel and her supporters have managed to get the United States to fight for their interests?

end of snippet

The article to which I am linking is also lengthy, but necessarily so. This is not a simple subject.

GoldiloxProxy Wars#1339557/11/05; 00:23:10

@ exponential

Interesting question. One that bears an analysis via the age old question, "Who really benefits?"

The two most pressing economic requisites for the destruction of Iraq are based in the more obvious dismantling - or better said "reduction" - of OPEC's nationalist leadership, and the need to crush the anti-dollar rebellion fomenting in the oil-producing nations. Notice that we've heard nothing more of the Islamic Gold Dinar since then, and western oil company "dollar" profits have soared to all-rime highs. In fact, Lt Sweet Crude has tripled its pre-invasion price.

The Dec tsunami and seven US carrier groups waiting just off their shores in the aftermath has also silenced the SE Asian Islamic currency advocates.

Formation of the Israeli state goes way back to the double-crosses that angered Lawrence. He assisted the Arabs in the overthrow of the Ottoman Turks only to watch his own British Army redraw Arab boundaries in a manner that would quash any idea of a "united Arab nation" - the same concern that ignited the Israeli attack in the six days war in '67.

The seeds of Israel as a "nation" were already being sown in British foreign policy before WWI. The AA alliance already foresaw a need for a base of operations near the oil patch and early Rothschild support was funding the unrest in Palestinian lands as early as the turn of the 20th century.

Thus my earlier assertion that Israel and the AA alliance are hardly at odds, except in minor execution details. Although Israel bombed Saddam's nuclear program independently in the media eyes, it could hardly have gotten away with it without tacit support from the AA powers. Ironically, the Israeli champion of this air raid was among those who died in the last mid-air Space Shuttle explosion, as he was on board to conduct US-Israeli joint space surveillance tests.

Anti-Iraq action, after so many years of the West supporting Saddam's Shiite and Kurdish purges, could only have been undertaken by UN or AA action, as any indication that the effort had Israeli origins would have set off an even greater Arab-Israeli war. This cannot be as well contained as a few decades ago, knowing that Pakistan now has nuclear capabilities and ties to both miliant Islam and US intelligence.

Israeli security is certainly important to the west, but quite a ways down the list of reasons for leveling Iraq and installing a "new" US-friendly regime to control the oil fields and Iraqi finances.

With the extra $10B they received for non-participation in the Iraqi invasion, they have plenty of funding to upgrade their high-tech weaponry.

TopazPOG ...Poor Old Gold!#1339567/11/05; 03:27:12

Now in full Paper mode, Gold is struggling to keep above the alt's here. The next couple of days will be interesting as REALITY hits Ag ...and PaperGold MAY just go with it.

Lunar half cycle means also a bit of seismicity, just to keep us on our toes.

A pointed Finger, a clenched Fist, hands outstretched take Gold, ...and give it a rest.

TownCrierIndonesia files pollution charges against mining co.#1339577/11/05; 03:56:07

JAKARTA, July 11 (Reuters) - Indonesian prosecutors filed pollution charges against a local unit of U.S.-based Newmont Mining Corp. and its American chief executive on Monday, in a case that has raised concern among foreign investors.

...The case has alarmed foreign investors worried about the difficulty of doing business in Indonesia and raised fears about the risks for foreign company employees.

Investment in mining has slumped in recent years largely because of changes to mining laws that many investors believe do not offer enough protection.

Many investors also say Indonesia is one of the toughest places in the region to do business because of corruption, excessive red tape and tough labour laws.

^-----(from url)-----^

Just one example to demonstrate a few of the traditional pitfalls that can befall a mining company to adversely affect share value. Thus, to avail yourself of the true benefits of diversification available through gold, you must seek out ownership of the metal. The miners are a completely different kettle of fish.


TownCrierU.S. Treasuries down at start of data-heavy week#1339587/11/05; 09:41:39

NEW YORK, July 11 (Reuters) - U.S. Treasury debt prices fell on Monday, extending Friday's slide, with traders citing technical factors as they began turning their attention toward a heavy schedule of economic data this week.

George Goncalves, a Treasury strategist at Banc of America Securities in New York ... said the fact yields had risen above barriers at 4.11 percent and 4.12 percent suggested to him that the selling pressure might persist enough to test other yield barriers in the 4.19 percent to 4.20 percent range.

Traders said the market's bearish tone was set up by a technical reversal on Thursday when virtually all the gains related to the bomb attacks in London dissipated by the end of the day.

"The fireworks begin on Wednesday," Goncalves said. Wednesday's data include the May trade numbers and June import prices.

^-----(see url)---^

Trillions upon trillions of IOUs ultimately puts emphasis on the appetite of others.


TownCrierNY gold pops higher early as euro climbs off lows#1339597/11/05; 09:50:13

NEW YORK, July 11 (Reuters) - Gold futures in New York extended a recovery from last week's five-week lows on Monday as the euro gained against the dollar, making bullion cheaper for traders in Europe, dealers said.

..."There's decent volume on the floor but the market is waiting for something," said a dealer at a bank. "There's been a lot of news in the past two weeks and it's in a consolidation period, in $420/30 range."

A big reduction in COMEX open interest recently shook out many stale positions and created a potential buying opportunity in gold with prices below $425, he added.

^----(from url)---^

When opportunity knocks, what you do by way of your response is what makes all the difference.


TownCrierEntry opportunity#1339607/11/05; 10:09:08

If the previous long-time overhead resistance level of 350 euro, now that it has been breached, has become the new basis for euro-denominated support, then a look at the graphs here reveal gold to be priced reasonably near to support lines in terms of BOTH the dollar and the euro -- thus giving a sort of double assurance that this is yet another reasonable entry point in time to establish or increase your position in gold.

You be the judge, as the decision for action is ultimately your own to make. See graphs at url.

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TownCrierToday's Headlines...#1339627/11/05; 10:16:56

Fannie Mae to sell $5.5 bln in bills Wednesday

New Issue - Freddie Mac sells $3.5 bln of bills

US Treasury to sell $15 bln 4-week bills Tuesday

Freddie Mac launches $7 bln of notes, pricing Tues

US Treasury to sell $13 bln in 5-year notes

----(all from Reuters)----

As mentioned earlier, it makes you wonder how strong and how long the appetite for billions new IOUs on top of outstanding trillions will prevail.

Diversify your IOUs into hard assets. Choose gold to retain portability and international liquidity.


GoldiloxGold futures top $426 on dollar, terror#1339637/11/05; 10:57:07;siteid=mktw

Reposted to eliminate accidental inclusion of CBS ads!

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Gold prices rebounded as much as $3 an ounce Monday after losing 1% in value last week, as traders gauged demand for the metal against a backdrop of a slightly weaker U.S. dollar and last week's terrorist bombings in London.

"Gold is attempting to build a base," said Peter Grandich, editor of The Grandich Letter, adding that "a weaker U.S. dollar and a renewed terrorism premium is helping to stabilize prices."

Gold for August delivery traded as high as $427 an ounce on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The contract was last at $426.80, up $3.

Gold has climbed "as the dollar has seen profit taking and this theme seems set to continue as the market has largely gone back into dollar-watching mode within the $420 to $430 area," said James Moore, an analyst at

At last check, the dollar failed to sustain last week's year-plus peaks, taken lower by a symbolic vote in favor of a European Union constitution and by some relief in oil prices. See Currencies.

"The week ahead is likely to see a certain degree of 'safe-haven' positioning factored into the price of gold following Thursday's attack in London and terrorist hits in Iraq and Turkey over the weekend," Moore said in a note to clients.

Silver prices also gained ground, with the September contract trading up 8.5 cents at $7.115 an ounce. September palladium was up 40 cents at $186 an ounce, while July platinum traded at $867 an ounce, up $3.80.


Analysts grasp as "reasons" for gold strength, focusing on "terror" and dollar weakness. Maybe the ESF is jut too busy trying to keep oil below $60.

TownCrierUAE may diversify reserves into euros -Bloomberg interview#1339647/11/05; 11:44:42

NEW YORK, July 11 (Reuters) - The United Arab Emirates may diversify as much as 5 percent of its foreign exchange reserves out of dollars and into euros, the country's central bank governor said in an interview...

"The euro has declined a lot and it is tempting to buy," Bloomberg cited central bank Governor Sultan bin Nasser al-Suwaidi as saying.

The United Arab Emirates' central bank board will meet in Abu Dhabi in September and "if they see it's tempting, they might say, 'OK, why don't you put 5 percent in euros?'" al-Suwaidi said.

...Diversification of global central banks' foreign exchange reserves to trim weightings in dollars and increase weighting to euros and other non-dollar currencies has been one factor weighing on the dollar in recent years.

^----(from url)----^

"Tempting" due to current exchange rate window? And pre-announced so as to stifle any advantage when an official decision/action is not to be made until September??

(tongue now in cheek) Did you ever know central banks to be such amazingly shrewd speculators and motivated profit seekers in the foreign exchange markets?

Can you take this simply at face value?


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GoldiloxUSDX chart#1339677/11/05; 12:54:52

There is an excellent DX chart with commentary over at Jsmineset provided by Lars Lundgren.

You might wanna take a look at his reasoning. The "strong growth" message looks a little shakier from this perspective.

GoldiloxDisconnection?#1339687/11/05; 13:05:55

For the last few weeks we've experienced POG support during some very strong USD sessions, based on EU buying (by people, not CBs). As the DX is looking frothy as it reaches the first FIB resistance, will we again see POG fueled by USDX correction?

It will be interesting to see if we can manage gold gains no matter which currency experiences a la carte favor.

Not much downside for the shinies in this "bugger thy neighbor's currency" market.

Oil prices are bouncing around like "crazy monkies", taking the SMs along for the ride. CNBC pundits are celebrating S&P four-year highs and the Dog is pushing three-year highs, but a few are reminding us that it has been completely range-bound during that period, allowing any short bounce to appear "bullish".

Gee, where was the NASDog four years ago? They are very careful about slicing the charts at the exact moment which supports their pre-conceived notions.

GoldiloxCorrection#1339697/11/05; 13:07:57

"a la carte favor" - what I really meant was "favor du jour".


GoldiloxDX Chart#1339707/11/05; 13:10:58

Terror concerns or waterfall resumption?
GoldiloxMillion Solar Home Initiative#1339717/11/05; 13:27:18

The California Assembly is currently arguing the merit of non-photovoltaic options and their eligibility for tax incentives. This is all included in the rate management bills before the assembly as a result of the 2001 electricity "crisis".

Interesting that this subject comes up while so many non-mainstream scientists and engineeers ar beginning to re-explore the Tesla direct electrical alternatives.

I'm watching the arguments on local public access.

mikalConfusion surrounds housing industry#1339727/11/05; 15:16:44 Feds no longer dismiss talk of housing bubble - America's Housing Craze - Martin Wolk - July 11, 2005
Standard article downplays most of the risk to investors and by extension, the economy while it skips around the surface issues, but the trip is still ugly.

GoldiloxRove Needs A Pink Slip#1339737/11/05; 16:04:30


But let's put aside the legal issues for a moment. This email demonstrates that Rove committed a firing offense. He leaked national security information as part of a fierce campaign to undermine Wilson, who had criticized the White House on the war on Iraq. Rove's overworked attorney, Robert Luskin, defends his client by arguing that Rove never revealed the name of Valerie Plame/Wilson to Cooper and that he only referred to her as Wilson's wife. This is not much of a defense. If Cooper or any other journalist had written that "Wilson's wife works for the CIA" -- without mentioning her name -- such a disclosure could have been expected to have the same effect as if her name had been used: Valerie Wilson would have been compromised, her anti-WMD work placed at risk, and national security potentially harmed. Either Rove knew that he was revealing an undercover officer to a reporter or he was identifying a CIA officer without bothering to check on her status and without considering the consequences of outing her. Take your pick: in both scenarios Rove is acting in a reckless and cavalier fashion, ignoring the national security interests of the nation to score a political point against a policy foe.


Now let me get this straight. On the White house staff, only the NSA, President and CIA director are cleared to know the names of individual operatives. So, if Karl Rove knew Valerie Plame's status, who the heck revealed it to him illegally? Now his defense counsel is playing the "secret decoder ring" defense card.

Here we have an obvious scapegoat action, given that the coverup failed completely.

No doubt Rove was picked to take the fall because he is already suspect in the choice of an internet male prostitute as White House Press shill! No sense in letting two loyalists go down! Besides, who needs a campaign manager now?

There is no doubt that any "regular" citizen who publicly revealed a CIA agent would get free room and board in Gitmo, but "resignation" is the most we're likely to see for Mr. Rove.

What a sad commentary that this admin commits acts defined by law as "treason" to further their cause of "war under false pretenses". They obviously couldn't care less that their actions target high-level American intelligence professionals and their assets for enemy assassination, in addition to reducing the world's best intelligence gathering organization to a role as "political spin doctors".

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1339747/11/05; 16:20:23">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Monday Market Excerpts

July 11 (from DowJones) -- A weak U.S. dollar and bullish options play propped up COMEX gold futures Monday.

The benchmark August contract settled up $2.50 at $426.30. During the session, the contract pushed to a $427.40 high - matching last Thursday's high.

The dollar extended early losses as investors continued to take profits while the euro jumped above a key $1.2000 level to its highest level since July 1.

While the weakness of the dollar appeared to be the main driver for gold futures, George Gero, senior vice president at Legg Mason Wood Walker in New York, said a bullish options play also added to the upside momentum in gold.

"There are 40,000-plus calls over puts and that means total open interest in options is as much as futures," Gero said.

"There has been a lot of bargain hunting going on."

While gold mostly follows the moves of the oil market, it didn't move lower with oil on Monday.

"People have been asking if gold has de-coupled from oil," Gero said. "Gold is up because of the re-purchase from funds that sold last week."

On the fundamental side, industry sources said there have been no change but added that gold futures prices remain strong versus levels seen last year.

"Last year at this time gold was at $402 and even with the recent sell-off it's still above that level and that means oil and the euro have been supportive to gold," Gero added.

(Reuters) -- "Demand is pretty strong down here in the $420s," James Turk, founder of GoldMoney, said.

"And, considering that the summer months are normally slow, the fact that we're seeing strong physical support here is good too."

---(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire, market quotes)----

White HillsRove#1339757/11/05; 16:31:17

Goldilox: I respect your opinions on economic matters and read everything you post with great interest. I appreciate the trouble you must go to and the time you use to post. However, when it comes to politics there is no doubt in my mind that you slant everything with a bias that is predictable. I suggest you hold your comments until all the info is out there concerning this matter. With you it seems that you believe in the Old West saying; We will have the trail on Friday and hang them on Saturday. With respect, White Hills
NedDemand for fiat falling.......#1339777/11/05; 16:41:55

Ned Johnston, owner of Ned Johnston Enterprises Inc. is offering $16 billion in short term paper this week.

Demand is expected to be weak.


GoldiloxRove Evidence#1339787/11/05; 17:20:57

White Hills,

The internet press has been predicting this for weeks, so the "mainstream" is really the only place where this still qualifies as "news". They've only been "investigating" it for about two years now.

Perhaps you do not consider CBS a "strong enough source" for evidence in this case, but Rove's attorney publicly admitted his complicity this morning.

Admission of guilt is usually enough evidence for legal action, but I suspect we will enjoy plenty of additional legal maneuvering, as the NeoCons scramble to replace "loyalty to country" with "loyalty to the party".

My "politics" play no role in Rove's admitted actions, or in the national attention this story is getting. Even the loyalist FOX network has had commentators calling for indictment this afternoon.

This will be no doubt be a political "hot potato", but should we expect less from revelations of such a high-level national security violation?

GoldiloxNJE#1339797/11/05; 17:25:26

@ Ned,

Are you collecting "monopoly money"? If people also send you the game pieces, can I have them?

Somehow, I suspect the zinc in the thimble, car, and top hat will be more valuable than the "Game FIAT".

GoldiloxTrial on Friday#1339807/11/05; 18:11:37

@ White Hills,

Your quote: "With you it seems that you believe in the Old West saying; We will have the trail on Friday and hang them on Saturday"

is pretty malicious. I doubt you have bothered to reference any of the evidence I have offered if you believe that.

It doesn't really matter if you share my politics, as I mostly report what I can document. My personal comments are my opinion, and stated as such, as are most anyone else's.

One thing you will not get from me is "blind loyalty" to anyone without the benefit of scrutiny - right or left! The same voluminous research you laud in my financial posts is double in my political posts, as I endeavor to read both sides before commenting - something that takes gargantuan effort.

Actually, given Rove's public confession, I'm not concerned if or when the trial is held. Between this and Gaygate, his credibility is shot even if his only "sentence" is banishment to monitoring the teams' political coffers in Grand Cayman.

My greater disappointment is that this gang often goes to great lengths to sweep the evidence away and discredit other loyal Americans before the investigation even begins (not that they invented this behavior).

You can rest assured that when a "liberal" gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar, I am every bit as vocal.

Federal_ReservesMonthly Gold - longer view.#1339817/11/05; 18:21:07

After a 20 year bear market (1980-2000), Gold double bottomed during the 1999-2001 period, then began a nice long term upsurge in the spring of 2001 which peaked in the winter of 2004. Was this wave 1? We have been consolidating sideways for the most part of 2005. Is this wave 2? This consolidation might serve as a major base for yet another huge upward surge. This next wave would be wave 3 and can be 1.8x the size of wave 1. It would be market by a surge above the wave 1 high, to new highs! This wave 3 surge could easily push past the alltime high for gold set in 1980. Will the next FED Chairman appointment and the retirement of AG kick off the next wave up? If so, I figure gold might continue to slideways awhile more but by the end of the year, should be making its break upward maybe near the 500's, and 2006 should be a stellar year for gold.
GoldiloxHurricane Dennis#1339827/11/05; 19:31:28

@ Topaz,

Were you the poster that was discussing weather with me last week?

If so, McCanney has posted some comments about Dennis at his site. He eschews anyone quoting or paraphrasing him, so I'll just post the link for your investigation.

GoldiloxDX overseas#1339837/11/05; 21:07:33

The waterfall is baaaaack!
White HillsGoldilox#1339847/11/05; 21:47:50

I have read over your post again on the Rove matter. I don't really pay much attention to it all as these kind of political charges go back and forth with much ado about nothing. I will look in to the matter now that it is of interest to me and will ask a few questions. Does Wilson's wife work under her married name? Is she just a pencil pusher or an operative under cover? Did Rove ever mention her name? Was she instrumental in getting her Husband the job to look into the supposed attempts by unknown parties to buy nuclear mat'l as reported by the Brits? Did her husband investigate the report or did he give lip service and go through the motions? Why would Rove out her? What political objective would he have? Do we have a law being broken? There are so many questions to be answered before we ruin a man's reputation. He is looked with respect by many people and has been instrumental in both elections that put President Bush in the White House. Talk to you later.By the way I don't use spell check and can't type all that well so you will excuse a few spelling mistakes. White Hills
exponentialwhen the housing bubble pops#1339857/11/05; 21:55:54

This is from the article referred to by mikal:

"It is a bubble, and it will pop but it's not prices that pop — it's market activity that pops," said Christopher Thornberg, an economist at UCLA's Anderson business school. "Prices just go down glacially, but market transactions collapse."

Thornberg speculated that housing prices in a typically overheated market could go down 20 percent for two years and then rise slowly, by 5 percent a year. Or prices could stay flat for six years. In either case, inflation-adjusted housing values would be far lower in six years than they are today.

My link is to an article by Peter Schiff on Financial Sense. He says this is NOT a typically overheated market, and prices WILL pop - they will drop precipitously:

"As the "debate" over the existence of a housing bubble intensifies, both sides are likely to be proven wrong when it comes to predictions for housing declines should the bubble burst. Most bubble advocates believe that rather than collapsing, housing prices will either rise more slowly, fall slightly, or simply stop going up, thereby allowing stagnant incomes to catch up with surging prices. However, a closer look at the facts reveals it is far more likely to burst with as big a bang as did the NASDAQ five years ago...

"According to a recent study by the National Association of Realtors, 23% of homebuyers specifically identified their purchases as investments. Another 13% identified their purchases as vacation properties. Since rental yields are so low, those buying properties as investments are by definition speculating. However, buyers of vacation homes are also speculating, as inherent in the decision to buy such properties is the expectation of price appreciation. Absent such a forecast, it is far more economical to vacation in hotels. Further, as owners of rental or vacation properties do not occupy their properties as principal residences, a change in sentiment as to future price appreciation could easily cause such owners to sell, or worse, to walk away from mortgages in circumstances of negative equity.

"However, the mere fact that owners occupy their houses as principle residences does not necessarily remove such properties from the category of speculative investments. For example, 58% of recent California homebuyers financed their purchases using ARMs (with percentages in pricier counties exceeding 80%). The primary reason given to justify such mortgages was owners’ intentions to resell the properties in relatively short periods of time. Such buying is clearly speculative, regardless of the speculator's intention to occupy the property.

"The fact that the majority of today's homebuyers are actually speculators in disguise, suggests that when the trend turns, prices will drop precipitously. Far from holding on to their homes, as even most housing bears suggest, owner/speculators will sell in droves, or worse, simply walk away from their bets, leaving lenders and tax payers to cover their losses."


My comment:

Which lenders? Not the banks, since they don't keep mortgages anymore. Mortagages turn into CMO's. The losses will be borne by people who own (directly or indirectly) Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. It will be up to the government to bail them out, to the tune of several trillion dollars. That's where the taxpayers come in. And that is also the point where the irresitible force (the inflationary effect of the government printing trillions of fiat dollars to bail out Freddie and Fannie) meets the immovable object (the deflationary effect of collapsing credit) with unpredictable consequences.

Incidentally, it amazes me that people write about real estate without knowing the difference between "principal" and "principle." O tempora! O mores!

GoldiloxRove#1339867/11/05; 23:08:44

@ White Hills,

Thanks for responding.

My typing is not stellar either - not by a long shot. I did, however, find it ironic that you misspelled "trial" as "trail" - as the trail of abuse is long.

Some of the questions are answered in the posted article itself. Others have been milled over in the press for the last couple years. Valerie Plame was definitely an NOC-field agent, and a high level one at that. See Sinclair's coverage of this event over the last 6 months for much more detail.

Congress even held investigative meetings aired all last week on C-Span. Thirty-four sitting members participated in the inquiry, which was supported by testimony from a number of current and former intel officers.

Unfortunately, just being part of Bush's entourage isn't enough to "vouch" for Rove's character, as Ken Lay was the largest admin campaign supporter in 2000, with funds from an ENRON treasury soon headed for oblivion. It took a pretty questionable action by the Supremes to keep the country from knowing that our public "energy policy" was designed by a secret committee that included the indicted CEO of the ENRON scandal. Under what principle of democracy does the public not have the right to know who formulates "national energy policy"? How can we reasonably be expected to verify potential "conflict of interest" in such secret dealings?

I'm not completely anti-Republican, as my own Republican Congressman appointed me to the Naval Academy in 1969 and my family is split right down the middle as "Republi-crats". However, I find the activities of this admin more than normally suspicious and certainly worthy of closer examination.

As I once remarked about some other politicians - "they certainly are no saints, they're politicians!" We must judge their actions much more strictly than their rhetoric. Do they "walk the talk?"

The laws in this country should be inviolable by leaders as well as citizens - perhaps our downfall is that we don't hold our public servants to similar standards as our citizens.

GoldiloxHousing Bubble#1339877/11/05; 23:18:37

@ exponential,

I am completely behind Schiff's analysis. We are experiencing "covert inflation", that I think all stops will be let out to "spin" the inflation as asset growth.

Once interest rates turn north, and they will, the housing "bubble' will return to a more normal pattern, and the air will be let out of the balloon - as slowly as possible, of course, but the RE specs will take a big hit as they did in the 1980's.

I believe the authors of our completely fraudulent BLS and CPI numbers (to use Faber's words) know that inflation is all but impossible to halt, but they must avoid public panic at all costs and paint it as "benign".

exponentialmore on the housing bubble#1339887/12/05; 00:20:45

Kurt Richebächer weighs in on this:

"In the end, the main question is, of course, what happens when a housing bubble expires. As to be expected, Mr. Greenspan and the bullish consensus deny the possibility of a hard landing. A little logic says that such a landing is inevitable.

"An illuminating case in this respect is the very recent experience in the Netherlands. While traditionally a country highly conservative in its finances, it developed a housing bubble in 1998-99, after years of strong economic growth. House prices and credit growth soared at double-digit rates. As homeowners cashing in on their burgeoning home equity went on a spending spree, the household savings rate plunged from 12.9% of disposable income in 1998 to 6.8% just two years later.

"As the Dutch central bank raised its short-term rate from 2.5% to 4.5% from 1999-2000, house price inflation came to an abrupt halt. Household borrowing and mortgage equity withdrawal slumped sharply.

"Being deprived of their "wealth effects," the Dutch people returned to saving from their current income. Within just three years, the personal savings ratio was back to 12%, driving the Dutch economy into the worst recession among the industrialized countries. The growth rate of consumer spending sagged in a straight line from 4.7% in 1999 to minus 1.2% in 2003.

"We have recalled this episode to emphasize one point of greatest importance, yet one that is widely ignored. The Dutch example confirms that for consumer spending to slump in the wake of a fading housing bubble, house prices do not need to fall at all. It is sufficient that they stop rising, thereby depriving households of new wealth effects and the associated borrowing facilities.

"Therefore, major housing bubbles imperatively end in a hard landing. A second major adverse influence on economic growth implicitly arises from the sudden cessation of the building boom. Yet the worst looming problem is always the potential damage to the banking system through escalating bad loans."


My comment:

I'm not sure it is necessary for interest rates to go up any more than they already have. All we need at this point is a change in investor psychology. A flattening of house prices will, by itself, cause a recession. Then, the recession will cause a collapse of house prices, and that, in turn, will make the recession worse. It will feed on itself in a downward spiral.

And then what? I think the immovable object will prevail over the irresistible force. It's easy enough for Bernanke to talk about dropping money from helicopters, but obviously that can't really happen.

Druid(No Subject)#1339897/12/05; 00:43:30

Druid: Click on the link and check out the map. Some pretty interesting research put together by Lutz C. Kleveman author of "The New Great Game".
TownCrierexponential, says...#1339907/12/05; 02:49:19

"It's easy enough for Bernanke to talk about dropping money from helicopters, but obviously that can't really happen."
Apparently you have already forgotten the $300 per person tax rebate/cash mailing that occurred just a couple years ago.

Why not make it $30,000 next time?

Theoretically and practically it can happen. That easily.


TownCrierNEWS FLASH: Mining's the pits#1339917/12/05; 03:09:12

12-JUL-05, --( In case Mineweb readers have not noticed lately, mining-related investigative reporting pieces seem to be popping up all over U.S. news media.

The New York Times has been busy all summer firing on all cylinders to resume its on-going war against hardrock mining. (Pulitzer Prize, anyone???)

That favorite whipping boy of the Times Indonesian bureau, Newmont is bracing itself for a joint investigative effort by the Times and the PBS documentary series, Frontline.

...Our sources tell us that the New York Times has more investigative goodies to come related to mining. Where will their magical, mysterious, anti-mining journalistic beacon of reportorial excellence alight next?

...based Great Basin Minewatch has also jumped on board the mercury bandwagon. The Nevada Mining Association responded that Nevada gold mines are being blamed for mercury emissions, which may have come from other sources.

Finally, Reuters and the Chilean news media have been busy reporting on marches by environmental activists in 14 Chilean cities this past Saturday. One of their targets is Barrick Gold's Pascua Lama project. Anti-mining activists have honed in on Barrick's plans to move parts of two glaciers to another glacier.

^-----(from url)----^

When it comes to gold diversification, the only way to actually do it is with the metal. Investing in a mine or mining corporation is entirely a different (and riskier) kettle of fish. The reasons are legion.


TownCrierWells Fargo adopts environmental lending policy#1339927/12/05; 03:20:34

NEW YORK, July 11 (Reuters) - Wells Fargo & Co., the No. 5 U.S. bank, on Monday said it will tighten its lending standards to address potential environmental risks...

The San Francisco-based bank joined Citigroup Inc., Bank of America Corp. and JPMorgan Chase & Co., in stiffening environmental lending standards.

Wells Fargo pledged by year end to adopt new due diligence procedures for mid-size and large business clients in environmentally sensitive industries.

... the emerging industry standard -- to phase out investing in operations that would degrade endangered forests...

^---(from url)---^

Just a hint of evolutionary policy that shows how corporate financing for certain operations may not be as readily available as once was the situation.

Put your money on gold that "already is" rather than on promises of gold that may never be -- that is, gold ore that may never actually see the light of day.


TopazPromises of Gold ...#1339937/12/05; 04:02:16

...that may never be?
If I recall correctly the bulk of those 28K call options ...about 20k of them got written mid June.
We also had a 60oddT tranche from the "mystery Euro CB" that came to market about this time, taming PoG and quelling discussion of "decoupling".

Now, 20,000 x100 = 2,000,000 oz = ...60odd T!

Curiouser 'n curiouser!

CometoseTICS Data#1339947/12/05; 06:44:32

Here's something to whet your appetite .........GOLDFANS....something that Jim Sinclair has stated is quite relevant to the upcoming activity in the GOLD MARKET..........

I hate to say it ......but if I were a big player(S) in this game ......given BERNAKE's comments on UNLIMITED PRINTING PRESS money ........

If this month is confirmed as the third in a row on THE US failure to meet financing requirements to balance the flow of funds relative to the DEFICIT..........

I would start taking METAL OFF THE COMEX .......
I THINK .......that is what is going to happen .....
on an international level and perhaps much quicker that many would imagine possible

starting with SILVER.......
The following was dated July 10

Trade Data Returns to the Forefront by Ezechiel Copic

After having absorbed the most recent interest rate decisions, the focus of the market turns to the topic of trade with the US trade balance for May due out on Wednesday and the US Treasury's TICS data due out July 18. With oil prices rising, there is a distinct possibility that the US trade deficit could exceed the $60 billion figure on its way to a new record high. This report will be especially important in light of the fact that for the past two months the TICS data has confirmed that net US-bound foreign capital inflows have failed to cover the monthly trade deficit.

This week also sees the release of industrial production data and retail sales figures, which should help to further clarify the situation among consumers and manufacturers. Industrial production for June is expected to duplicate May's 0.4% increase and retail sales are projected to increase 0.9% after having declined by 0.5% in May. However, much of the increase in retail sales is expected to come from the recent action by auto dealers to aggressively discount cars. Therefore, the markets will be more focused on retail sales excluding automobiles, which are forecasted to increase 0.5%. Any softness in industrial production and retail sales, coupled with a burgeoning trade deficit could prove bearish for the greenback.

Inflation data in the form of CPI and PPI for the US are also due out at the end of the week, with the headline figures forecasted to increase 0.3% and 0.5% (M/M), respectively.

CometoseTICS DATA article ref#1339957/12/05; 06:47:18

reference to former post
CometoseGold action #1339967/12/05; 07:04:14

Someone on another site last week .......

stated that based on Gold action ..... in the wake of the London bombings .........that the bombings were a non event

Today the dollar is down bigtime and ..........
they are taking GOLD DOWN the same time ....

In the last couple of weeks ........THE FED HAS AGAIN FLOODED THE MARKET WITH LIQUIDITY ........

in unfathomable fashion .........

Sounds like something dramatic is getting ready to occur...
They know what happens if the TICS data goes upside down 3 months in a row......

THEY ARE AT THE READY Manipulate markets with FIAT .......
but they cannot manipulate PRICE in the context of .........EVAPORATION OF SUPPLY in any COMMODITIES MARKET

This is the only tack that HARD MONEY / Sound ECONOMIC POLICY advocates have left to combat this insanity .....
and to protect themselves from RAMPANT INFLATIONARY POLICIES of the western central banks........

It's interesting to watch the Global players lining up
and taking sides with regard to HARD MONEY .......

and to watch who is heralding and practicing in 3D right in front of our EYES.........AUSTRIAN SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS PRINCIPLES

THANK you, MARC FABER ...........

Gandalf the WhiteYES, INDEED !! The BEAUTIFUL waterfalls are BACK !!#1339977/12/05; 09:43:02

Not to worry, the YELLOW will become more GOLDEN soon !

TownCrierGold rises as euro gains#1339987/12/05; 09:53:32

12 Jul 2005 -- Spot gold was higher on Tuesday as the euro firmed above $1.21 against the US dollar, analysts said.

"There has been no major news to move the gold market today, with the only driver being the euro/dollar, which has been bid up aggressively," a Switzerland-based trader said.

^----(from url)----^

From overnight/overseas report.


TownCrierOil-rich central bank buying could revitalize euro#1339997/12/05; 10:08:00

LONDON (Reuters) - Signs that central banks in oil-rich nations are considering buying euros again to diversify their huge official reserves could aid the single currency after falling more than 10 percent against the dollar this year.

Oil prices' surge to a record high above $62 a barrel last week also suggests oil exporters such as Russia or those in the Middle East will have more dollars in their coffers to sell than before, which could help the euro regain ground, analysts say.

After hitting a 14-month low below $1.1870 last week, the euro staged a rally above $1.22 on Tuesday. The move came as the United Arab Emirates said it might convert five percent of its foreign exchange reserves to euros from dollars.

Qatar said last month it is considering shifting some of its foreign exchange reserves back into the euro given its fall, highlighting the increasingly pro-active way for oil-rich countries to manage their holdings.

"It's not that these banks have so much reserves. But it's the thinking process - if they are thinking like that other central bank community might see a value in the euro," said Shahab Jalinoos, senior currency strategist at ABN Amro.

In the three years to 2004, the euro gained nearly 60 percent against the dollar...

The Bank for International Settlements estimates the dollar's share in global reserves stood at 69 percent in 2004 ... while the euro's share was at 21 percent, suggesting a wave of diversification has yet to come.

^----(from url)----^

Due to their size and influence, CBs dare not move straight and simply into gold reserves from dollars as that would instantly shatter the smoothness of the transition they strive for.

Happily, however, given the smallness of our own size, we can follow their spirit of diversification -- while putting it into better practice with a straightforward shift into gold at the current time.


CometoseOOPS!!!!#1340007/12/05; 10:19:27

Oil (suppression) over 60 a barrel again !!!!

HOW TO PUT GIANT Jack back in the BOX??????????????

TownCrierDexia, HSBC Lead Manage Poland's 50-Year Euro Bond#1340017/12/05; 10:19:28§ion=news&news_id=dji-00033020050712&date=20050712&alias=/alias/money/cm/nw

BRUSSELS -(Dow Jones)- Dexia Capital Markets and HSBC, in cooperation with Dexia Kommunalkredit Bank, the newly funded bank of the Group in Vienna with the focus on Central and Eastern Europe, have lead-managed with success the second 50-year bond issue in euro launched by a sovereign- after the France's issue in last February.

^-----(from url)-----^

The lesson here, for the euro-skeptics, is that their would be no institutional, market support for a 50-year low interest bond unless there was a high degree of corresponding institutional, market confidence in the ultimate fate of the denominating currency.

What does this imply for the gold owner? Recall that gold does especially well as the euro gains market share and climbs against the dollar. Recall also, institutionally, that as the eurosystem's current stock of dollar reserves lose value, there must be something present to fill the valuation void. That something is the present stock of gold.

Get yours today. Call USAGOLD-Centennial for assistance.


GoldiloxEnd of the Euro#1340027/12/05; 10:45:41

CNBC Bubble-vision just ran a piece on "The End of the Euro", so I decided to Google the title and got 1.2M hits - pick your poison.

It seems that the recent reversal of the DX has brought the anti-Euro shills out in droves!

Of the articles I read, my favorite included deGaul's famous quote, "How can you govern a country with 247 types of cheeze?"

"Bugger-thy-neighbor's currency" continues!

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.FREE Gold Information Packet...#1340037/12/05; 11:01:45

GoldiloxChina allows commercial banks sell gold bars - traders#1340047/12/05; 11:02:34


INGAPORE (Reuters) - China has allowed the country's four major commercial banks to sell gold bars to their customers in the near future to boost demand for investment, dealers said on Wednesday.

Currently, individuals in China are only allowed to buy gold-backed certificates from the Bank of China UL] and the Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, they said. Account holders use the certificates to trade in gold instead of buying or selling real bullion.

Two other banks, China Construction Bank and the Agriculture Bank of China, will also roll out gold bar products soon, dealers said.

"The China Banking Regulatory Commission has given an approval for these banks to start the business. The four major banks are preparing to launch gold bars for their customers in the near future," said one regional dealer who covers the Chinese market.

"This is the reason why I think China's gold consumption may rise by 10 percent this year. This is related to an increase in investment demand," he said.

Government officials could not be reached for comment but an official with the Shanghai Gold Exchange said: "We can't prevent commercial banks from doing this kind of thing."


All in all, it's just another brick in the Wall!

Let's see what this does for the "demand' curve.

GoldiloxDX Waterfall#1340057/12/05; 11:06:29

@ Gandalf,

The ESF seems to be ignoring the current waterfall. Are they too busy holding oil down, or are they taking some time to get their dog-bite suits on?

Gold and Silver also have not reacted to the drop, so I think something smells funny!

White RoseBP's Thunder Horse oil platform listing 30 degrees #1340067/12/05; 11:30:55

This is the reason oil is up $2 today.

Google: Thunder Horse BP for the details

The credit for this is Dennis

White HillsRove#1340077/12/05; 11:38:30

Sir Goldilox, Glad to hear that your Republican Congressman recommended you for the Naval Academy on merit, not on politics. This is how it should be and is one of the tenets of Republican philosophy.
There seems to be more to the Rove affair than meets the eye. I will, of course, let you know just how wrong you are and give you enough time to reply. I do respect the research that you do so I want to have all my ducks (democrats) in a row even though I pretty well know what has happened. We will examine the evidence to determine what is true and what is democrate(untrue). I will say that knowing just what I know, with a minimum of research, indicates the bias that you approached this subject with and the part it played in your post. With too many people it is not the weight of the evidence that matters but the seriousness of the charge. With respect, White Hills

TownCrierOn lenders of last resort#1340087/12/05; 13:00:25

Jacques de Larosière of Paribas recently gave a presentation on the future of central bank cooperation in which he said,

"with the elimination of financial borders, the development of new and always more complex products based on derivatives which are offered more and more widely to investors, the growing interconnexions between cross-border financial intermediaries, and the enormous and ever increasing electronic settlements through payment systems… are not factors that reduce systemic risks but, on the contrary, can increase them. The chain of transactions is long and involves a multitude of players. The break of a link of this chain can entail contagious reactions of which we had some examples in past.

"And this is where comes up the problem of the lender of last resort. Always a touchy issue, but more difficult still in a world without borders. "Never speak about it publicly but always think of it", according to the old saying. This responsibility will remain one of the important tasks for Central Banks of tomorrow. In this field, Central Bank cooperation is more and more essential, although governments can also be -and will be- involved in insolvency crises."


My thoughts and additons:
In an environment where cooperation and putting independent and national assets against escalating risk becomes increasingly difficult to coordinate, it makes more sense, wherever possible, to simply eliminate need for such action through the elimination of the potential buildup of those particularly unnecessary systemic risks which could precipitate the need for such lender-of-last-resort action.

The institutional leasing/lending of gold through the bullion banking sector is one such obvious avenue of risk upon which the opportunity to eliminate it entirely ought be a firming policy option that is clearly recognized and dutifully exercised.

Maybe we'll all soon begin to see that this sort of thing is what the new euro-style reserve architecture (heading toward free MTM gold) and the subsequent Central Bank Gold Agreements (1999 and 2004) are all about.


exponentialhelicopter money#1340097/12/05; 13:25:24

TownCrier says,

> Apparently you have already forgotten the $300 per person
> tax rebate/cash mailing that occurred just a couple years ago.

> Why not make it $30,000 next time?

> Theoretically and practically it can happen. That easily.

Any such program would have to go through Congress, and in Congress nothing is that easy. Any proposal involving tax cuts or rebates is intensely debated. Before they could send out hundreds of billions of dollars worth of rebate checks, there would have to be a constituency for it.

In a depression comparable to 1932, there might be a constituency for all kinds of radical programs. The idea of sending everybody $30,000 might be one proposal on the table, along with many others (such as defaulting on bonds, going back to the tax rates of the 1950's, confiscating property, repudiating the whole idea of globalization, etc).

In a situation less dire than 1932, there will not be a constituency for any such program.

The Fed can increase the money supply on its own, without going through Congress, but in that case the money doesn't go directly to households. There is really nothing Bernanke can do (supposing he is Greenspan's successor) that would be comparable to dropping money out of helicopters.

TownCrierOn the previous topic, William White of the BIS chimes in with these thoughts...#1340107/12/05; 13:26:56

"with deregulated markets playing a bigger role than ever, and floating exchange rates increasingly the rule, it could also be argued that the need for international cooperation has now been much reduced. In a nutshell, if central banks are focussed on domestic price stability, and if domestic financial stability is assured by adequate governance and regulatory standards (albeit, likely to be internationally negotiated) what further role is there for international cooperation? Moreover it could also be argued that the narrower domestic mandate of central banks will reduce the scope of international central bank cooperation as well."


Me again:
Thus, with the various national/regional currencies floating relatively while each finds its own real purchasing strength based on individual management of independent domestic monetary policies, we should see that the continued capping influence upon gold pricing through the tolerance of (if not also outright participation in) leasing makes less and less sense as it potentially builds exposure for high levels of cooperation in lender-of-last-resort activity and thereby putting one's own gold at risk -- short of officially allowing adversely affected institutions to skate over a default in which non-performance of a gold payments stream is allowed to be frozen at a selected book value and settled in paper.

In a brave new world, the only way to reap the full benefits of gold ownership during crunch time is to own the metal. All contracts inherently have built-in bankruptcy/default settlement procedures, and thus it can be effectively said of contracts that they are all simply promises which are/were made to be broken.

Again, therefore, choose actual OWNERSHIP -- choose gold.


Goldilox"Bias"#1340117/12/05; 13:28:15

@ White Hills,

Just for historical elucidation, the Republican Congressman was Pete McCloskey, the lone Republican voice against Nixon's scorched earth bombing campaign and use of Agent Orange in Viet-Nam (a poorly thought out weapon that was eventually responsible for huge numbers of US service deaths and disabilities). He was essentually the "Ron Paul" of his generation, and a thorn in the side of the globalists of that time - much to my admiration.

I think it is interesting that those who most eschew my "bias" often haven't done their homework BEFORE posting and do not offer to include their own research. I'm encouraged that you want to learn more before debate. Having done a huge volume of research, I can in good conscience assure you that my bias is "informed", not simply "prejudice".

I do have a strong bias to honest government. From what we see out of the admin, the FED, and the BLS, and the current Congress, the evidence is strong that we are not experiencing anything of the sort, and I, for one, believe that our global financial "conundra" find their origins here. I will not take any leader's "word" for their honesty and ignore potential"conflicts of interest".

As Jefferson said, "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive."

I have no problem with anyone opposing my politics and I welcome informed debate. Read all you can and we'll talk again.

Have a golden day!

TownCrierexponential, my apologies#1340127/12/05; 13:37:43

I didn't at the time realize that your original protest was directed to be in regard to a LITERAL interpretation of the common references to the prescription of anti-deflation medicine by way of money being dropped out of helicopters.

You are quite right. We will NOT likely see the sky filled with choppers precipitating a money rain.


USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1340137/12/05; 14:17:31">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

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Tuesday Market Excerpts

July 12 (from Reuters) -- U.S. gold futures finished higher in thin trade on Tuesday as a weaker dollar sparked speculative buying, but stiff upside technical resistance barred further gains for now, dealers said.

COMEX August gold contracts rose 80 cents to conclude at $427.10.

New York brokers extended gold's gains amid a surge in the euro since Monday and after currency-based fund buying in Tokyo gold futures overnight. "The euro has rallied on short covering and the (short-term) speculators just drove gold higher," a New York trader at an international bank said.

The dollar fell to three-week lows against the euro as investors cautiously eyed U.S. trade data for May due on Wednesday that could underscore the nation's external financing woes.

U.S. trade figures for May due on Wednesday could give gold and currencies a push, traders said, especially if data comes in far from expectations. Forecasts are for a trade deficit of $57 billion, which is basically flat from the prior month's trade gap.

The euro rose to $1.2235 by midafternoon, from $1.2064 late on Monday, stretching further away from recent 14-month lows. However, trading in metals has been muted by thin summertime volumes and gold's moves were subdued, compared with the euro's rally to a two-week high on Tuesday.

---(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

GoldiloxChoppers#1340147/12/05; 14:19:08


While we're certainly seeing a proliferation of choppers from increased HS budgets, they're definitely not dropping money on us!

TownCrierSummertime gold#1340157/12/05; 14:19:56{65850046-527E-4723-887B-A4A580CB9C7A}&siteid=mktw

July 12, 2005, (MarketWatch) --

..."In light of this pullback in the dollar, the gold market is looking pretty decent, but the recent shellacking has put the bulls on the defensive so it may take some time for the market to gain its footing no matter how badly the dollar gets hit," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities.

"But, as the painful memory of the rapid decline fades, the bulls will dominate once again and push gold beyond the June highs," he said.

Brien Lundin, editor of Gold Newsletter also believes the metal is headed higher. "The near-term prospects look good for the metal," he said.

"Gold usually puts in its summer bottom sometime between mid-July to early-August, so if we haven't bottomed yet, we should only have two or three weeks left of corrective action before beginning a rally that ... usually lasts through the fall," he said.

^----(from url)----^


exponentialhelicopter money#1340167/12/05; 14:56:13

@TownCrier - I understand that "helicopters" are a figure of speech. My point is that the Fed can't do anything *equivalent* to that. They can't send money directly to households.

In my post last night, I wrote "Which lenders [will be left to cover the real estate losses]? Not the banks, since they don't keep mortgages anymore. Mortagages turn into CMO's. The losses will be borne by people who own (directly or indirectly) Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. It will be up to the government to bail them out, to the tune of several trillion dollars. That's where the taxpayers come in. And that is also the point where the irresistible force (the inflationary effect of the government printing trillions of fiat dollars to bail out Freddie and Fannie) meets the immovable object (the deflationary effect of collapsing credit) with unpredictable consequences."

After writing that, it occurred to me that my words were not grounded. It's not clear *how* the government could cover the losses in a situation where house prices collapse. There is no obvious way for anybody to get a handle on the situation. The whole idea of CMO's is to spread or diffuse the debt, and they serve that purpose very well. Even if the government stepped in and prevented Fannie and Freddie from going bankrupt - which they are not legally obligated to do - it's not clear what difference that would make. The losses will be borne by everyone who owns CMO's, which includes banks, insurance companies, pension funds, hedge funds, and other investors, not only in the US but all over the world.

In the tug of war between deflation and inflation, the two sides are not equal. Deflation can happen on its own. Inflation requires a proactive policy of some kind, and there are many political obstacles in the way.

Au-someHelicopter money#1340177/12/05; 15:36:11

Part of the problem described in Duncan's "Dollar Crisis" is how to get past the liquidity trap - pushing on a string. Sure there is unlimited money available, but how do you get it into the hands of the common man to keep the consumer economy going? Especially if the common man can't bear any more debt, mortgage or other. Duncan suggests a global minimum wage. I'm sure other machinations are being contemplated. I suspect the answer to the problem and the apparatus to administer it is already in place. Its called tax relief. We have already enjoyed some relief, more could be in the future. A different constituency could be targeted next time. Deductions could be increased for selected individuals. Single mothers could receive bigger deductions than Republicans for instance. (Oops, did I say that out loud?) Sorry, I am somewhat semi-serious about this concept. After all, the tax code does contain credits for people who may not even owe any tax. Isn't that like welfare distributed via IRS choppers! If we could file every quarter chopper money could be seeded into the economy all year long. Deficits don't matter! Do they?
BoilermakerRescuing the Housing Crash#1340187/12/05; 16:30:55

The S&L crash 20 odd years ago had some of the same symptoms as we see now in housing; too much money being loaned into too many risky properties. Increasing inflation and interest rates cause a business slowdown, reduction in demand for space and higher financing costs. See-through office buildings had no tennants. The depositor's money in the S&L's were guaranteed by the FDIC so that the government couldn't just let them fail. They liquidated the S&L's and auctioned the properties. As I recall it cost about 500 billion but didn't trigger a total collapse. That was before Fannie and Freddie.

Now we have mortgages packaged into CMO's stacked miles high with no governmental backing (at least contractually). Who owns the CMO's? I haven't researched the ownership of this stack of shaky promises but I bet it's the little people whose assets are entrusted in the hands of pension funds and mutual funds. This time around the government does not have to assume ownership of the problem but you can bet they will come up with a solution that puts them in control of the liquidation of defaulted housing. I see a New Deal agency called "Stay Put" that matches defaulted owners (now renters) with their existing homes and becomes their benevolent landlord. A whole new concept in government housing. This will be an important step in the path to socialism that we have been descending for years.

GoldendomeWe need not correct our spending ways. What we need is more subterfuge to disguise it.#1340197/12/05; 16:56:52

All this talk about the possible need for helicopter money (emergency cash infusions) has me wondering: Why doesn't the government do something to lower the trade deficit and with it the cumulative current account deficit? Now I don't mean really lower it, like in spending less, but to create imponderable government delusion to make these deficits appear to be lower. Much as they do today with the GDP and Inflation numbers...lie!

Are the Chinese, Flip-flops that we buy this summer really no better than the flip-flops that we were buying in the past year or two? If the bean-counters can find a way that they are better, then their cost if the same or even higher may be less for deficit purposes than those of the past. This would be like the computer that costs us twice as much as it did five years ago, but is considered to cost only 20% of our old computer because of improvements. So more cost actually becomes less cost for CPI computations.

This would work for the trade deficit. More actual cost could actually cost less for official record keeping purposes and make us all feel much better about our national profligacy. This could take the pressure off future interest rates and slow down all of us worry warts, continually hyperventilating about when foreigners will pull the plug on our borrowing. Now they won't need to; the trends will be on more gentle glide path as more items are hedonistically adjusted. Gas, crude, and textiles will be some other items that will need some little do-hickeys done to them to enhance their apparent values.

Real costs be dammed! I'm just amazed that the government's pencillers haven't come up with more creative bookwork to camouflage with statistics and figures what they can't correct in real terms.

TrurlHelicopter money -- been there; done that#1340207/12/05; 17:19:42

Much has been said today and recently about helicopter money, real estate bubbles, and related topics of fear.

Well, be afraid; be very afraid.

How does this sound:

Then we come to the relief that is being given to those who are in danger of losing their farms or their homes. New machinery had to be set up for farm credit and for home credit in every one of the thirty-one hundred counties of the United States and every day that passes is saving homes and farms to hundreds of families. I have publicly asked that foreclosures on farms and chattels and on homes be delayed until every mortgagor in the country shall have had full opportunity to take advantage of Federal credit. I make the further request which many of you know has already been made through the great Federal credit organizations that if there is any family in the United States about to lose its home or about to lose its chattels, that family should telegraph at once either to the Farm Credit Administration or the Home Owners Loan Corporation in Washington requesting their help.
This is from an FDR fireside chat of 10/22/33.

The US stands ready to flood the market with FRNs. Why do you think the prez has never vetoed a spending bill -- what better screen for hyper inflation than just approving what congress wants to spend?

Its also interesting poking around the other fireside talks. One mentions that if the US had to pay out all its gold, only 1 in 25 could be made whole.

Goldendome@ Boilermaker-- Operation Stay-Put.#1340217/12/05; 17:26:41

Your words from previous post: " I see a New Deal agency called "Stay Put" that matches defaulted owners (now renters) with their existing homes and becomes their benevolent landlord."

Sir: Perhaps you know or remember hearing that this was actually done during the Great Depression of the 1930's!

I can recall on several occasions when younger my folks, Aunts, and Uncles discussing exactly those happenings in the 1930's in the farm country of the midwest farm belt. I can recall them saying that there was no sense in removing the defaulted people from the land, for who would take their places? [Now this was not the Gov't involved so much, but greatly involved insurance companies that held the mortgages and some banks that survived].

The farmers were allowed to stay on the land, care for the buildings, produce what they could, and pay what they could. In so many areas, failure was on such a large scale, that who would be or could be caretakers other than those already there? Years later, the caretakers were often given first chance at re-working the debt and calling the farm again their own, but in many instances also, the caretakers eventually would leave and new owners for the land and buildings found. Everyone was greatly effected, the discussions were always very sober and matter of fact. To a large degree, I received the impressions that everyone--large and small alike--realized that they were into something special (in a negative way). They were all bound together in some respects and did what they collectively could to survive and get through those years.

GoldendomeCrude rises after re-assessement of Huricane Dennis damage.#1340227/12/05; 18:17:47


July 12 (Bloomberg) -- Oil prices rose for the first session in four after the U.S. government reported that as much as 96 percent of production in the Gulf of Mexico was shut by Hurricane Dennis.

...The U.S. Energy Department report will probably show stockpiles of crude oil declined by 2.8 million barrels in the week ended July 8, according to the median estimate of 11 analysts surveyed by Bloomberg. Gasoline inventories may also have dropped.

... The U.S. Energy Department increased its estimate of crude- oil prices for the third quarter by 12 percent to an average of $59.17 a barrel, as rising worldwide demand outpaces production.


Comment: Looks like production and facilities actually suffered more than the first optomistic comments attempted to portray. Another Storm, Emily, appears to be on the way in through the Carribean.

PRITCHOMore on Rove - -- Goes Right To The Top - - From Todays Sinclair Report#1340237/12/05; 20:40:25

Tuesday, July 12, 2005, 4:21:00 PM EST


Author: Jim Sinclair

Regarding Mr. Rove, Joseph Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame, it is critical to keep in mind that only three people in the USA outside of the CIA Director of Opts and the DDO have the legal right to know the name of a NOC (Non Official Cover Officer).

Even within the CIA ,the NOC's have code names when on active duty. Their private names are no where to be found in the Langley Noodle Factory. The stars on the wall at the entrance to Langley headquarters look directly at the words, "The Truth Will Set Us Free," representing those who died in the line of duty but carry no names.

Those three people with the legal right to know a NOC's name are the President, the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of State. This privilege is certainly not available to a political strategist or an administration Chief of Staff no matter how well positioned that individual is within the administration. This is why the defense is that he did not give the name of Valerie Plame because he didn't know it.

You have to marvel at a situation whereby the media has never focused on the key element of the entire Plame affair which is that Rove has no legal access or right to know that Plame was a NOC let alone a CIA employee.

You also have to marvel at how our entire society plays the game of form over substance by even confessing in legal parlance to leave the door open to claim innocence to the proper legal charge of High Treason which is punishable by death. What happened to "You do the crime, you do the time?"

In Wall Street you do the crime, you pay the government and there is no time, no stigma and no black marks on anyone's record. Still, the young ghetto kid who boosts a car goes directly to Attica for ten years minimum.

The most protected and secret asset that the USA's intelligence service has is its NOC list. Therefore it is inconceivable that Carl Rove had access to the information that was transmitted to many reporters as they did not figure out Plame was a NOC on their own.

Rove Told Reporter of Plame's Role But Didn't Name Her, Attorney Says
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, July 11, 2005; A01

White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove spoke with at least one reporter about Valerie Plame's role at the CIA before she was identified as a covert agent in a newspaper column two years ago, but Rove's lawyer said yesterday that his client did not identify her by name.

Rove had a short conversation with Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper on July 11, 2003, three days before Robert D. Novak publicly exposed Plame in a column about her husband, Joseph C. Wilson IV. Wilson had come under attack from the White House for his assertions that he found no evidence Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger and that he reported those findings to top administration officials. Wilson publicly accused the administration of leaking his wife's identity as a means of retaliation.

The leak of Plame's name to the news media spawned a federal grand jury investigation that has been seeking to find the origin of the disclosure. Cooper avoided jail time last week by agreeing to testify before the grand jury about conversations with his sources, while New York Times reporter Judith Miller was jailed for refusing to discuss her confidential sources.

To be considered a violation of the law, a disclosure by a government official must have been deliberate, the person doing it must have known that the CIA officer was a covert agent, and he or she must have known that the government was actively concealing the covert agent's identity.
PS -Re earlier posts-Its impossible to have a constructive discussion with a mind that's already made up! (Just stating the bleeding obvious :)

GoldiloxSinclair's Rove analysis#1340247/12/05; 21:32:58

@ Pritcho,

Sinclair is reiterating what I said all along. A very important issue is that Rove had no business even knowing that Ms. Plame was a NOC, so someone else committed a serious violation to tell him in the first place - a fact totally ignored by the media.

During my college education, I received a "security" clearance from the now defunct AEC for a research assignment at Lawrence Labs. We were constantly reminded that passing ANY secure information (even to our wives) was a FELONY - punishable by federal prison time! If at any time we were suspected of violating the agreement, we signed a waiver to allow them to order a polygraph at their discretion.

This issue is not Martha's flippant FBI fibbing, it has real national security ramifications - not to mention it cavalierly risks the lives of Ms. Plame and her subordinate operatives.

Every discussion starts from a position of "opinion". Reversing another's opinion can sometimes be accomplished with enough evidence - but not by denigration.

exponentialKarl Rove#1340257/12/05; 21:34:26

It is a long way from "Rove has no legal access or right to know" to "it is inconceivable that Carl Rove had access to the information."

But what does this have to do with gold?

GoldiloxAL wins the "gold" in Detroit#1340267/12/05; 21:34:29

and Miguel Tejada gets the new 'Vette as MVP!
mikal@Goldendome#1340277/12/05; 21:35:29

Re: Crude rises on Dennis damage - Thanks aand good points!
I would have expected crude to rise anyway to retest
it's recent high around $61 and change due to the recent trend. At the same time, sharp corrections in this (manipulated, rigged, controlled,
or managed?) market seem to come about with equal volatility on any news. Inventories up, storage down, rumors, facts and spin etc.
Now we're hearing a flood of predictions for a moonshot in commodities including oil and just as many calls for a dive. Though I enjoy hearing them (and FOA might weigh in again on oil, etc. after the facts are apparent), I'm convinced that gold is not a commodity except in limited, mostly high-tech industrial uses and in derivative trading, rigging and hedging vehicles such as swaps, leases, futures, options and indices(also mining and exploration stocks are a paper/digital derivative- a proxy).
Gold is particularly well suited today to a hard asset role. Wealth, savings, insurance, and liquidity. Protection, portability, power over own's life. When you look at it's past, gold always asserts and reasserts this personal role at the proper time.

GoldiloxRove and Gold#1340287/12/05; 21:45:16

@ exponential,

Rove's direct relationship the POG is not at issue, but the general cavalier attitude of this admin to honest statistics, factual disclosures, and even the real cost of lives sacrificed in Iraq has a lot of people questioning their stewardship in areas of security and economic management.

As open forum has been gratiously extended by the hosts, questioning the admin's agenda is, to many, not completely non-sequitur.

GoldiloxGold as a "commodity"#1340297/12/05; 21:57:00

Accepting the media's portrayal of gold as a general commodity fits right in with the agenda of the bullion and short managing banks.

If they can convince individuals to abandon gold as the governments "appear to have", it makes their manipulations even easier and their message of "FIAT" even more appealing.

Where do the government agendas end and the CB agendas begin? A revisit of "Creature of Jeckyll Island" can help clarify.

PRITCHO@Goldilox - - - Re Rove -Sinclair#1340307/12/05; 22:03:47

For your info sinclair has been onto this subject since it began -with the leak. He has been calling for hesds to roll - for obvious reasons. BTW I feel I'm entitled to MY opinion that discussion with an "openly stated" closed mind is a waste of time.All that occurs after that is a clash of egos -albeit in a somewhat civilized manner.

Re Sinclair:I read his site most mornings & have sometimes been less than impressed by the repeatitive nature of some dialogue.I took up the recent offer at his site to get the "Free" disc entitled "The Case For Gold" -an interview with James Sinclair.

It would have been hard not to be very impressed with his presentation & the clear & precise way he delivered it. I had my family sit through it without protest so it must have been good! Highly recommended -- I wonder how many others here also have indulged?

GoldiloxSinclair#1340317/12/05; 22:44:18

@ Pritcho,

I've been reading Sinclair daily for a number of years. I don't always agree with him, but in this case I find him right on target. My family has been involved with national security in a number of ways for generations. I personally find Rove's alleged violation despicable, and I am glad it has caught the attention of those who can further the investigation.

You're certainly welcome to your opinion about "discussion" of issues with those you feel have a "closed mind", but it appeared to me that you completely close off any potential for discussion when denigrating the other party.

Just an observation, not trying to start an argument.

GoldiloxSilver#1340327/12/05; 22:55:53

Here's one for Rich:

"So when I went to the drug store after serious surgery today and noticed silver being touted as the best antibiotic out there, I received a "fourth opinion" that silver will soon shoot skyward. The third opinion was that the US military is buying anti-fungal socks with silver threads in them. The second opinion was the commitment of traders report. The first opinion was that of the web bots which so perfectly captured the Indonesia disaster, the Northeast power outage, and many more.

I'm not telling you this to encourage you to buy silver mind you, because that's not my business. But the next time you slice your finger in the kitchen and you don't want an infection, look at the new bandages out with silver in them."

2023Sinclair's DVD "A Case For Gold"#1340337/12/05; 23:41:58

One word - teriffic. I have watched this presentation several times and Mr Sinclair is very clear, concise, extremely well spoken. He knows the subject matter better than most anyone. Just my 2 pesos.
GoldiloxNaked Shorting Scandal#1340347/13/05; 04:13:04


How prevalent and widespread is naked short selling? Judging from the growing number of stocks on the SHO list for "excessive trade failure settlement", and the fact that 17 companies have been on the list from Day One - 117 days and counting, and 37 have been on the list for over 100 days, it appears to be extremely widespread. If trade settlement is required by law in three days, how can 37 companies have excessive trade settlement failures for over 100 days in a row? There are currently 193 companies on the NASDAQ/OTCBB threshold list, and 51 on the NYSE threshold list. Throw in the AMEX stocks on the current threshold list, and there are 279 total stocks with excessive trade settlement failures. (Editor's note: Every time you hear the phrase "excessive trade settlement failures", think "excessive counterfeit shares".)

Many investors and companies believe that the amount of counterfeit shares exceeds the entire number of shares issued by the companies. However, there's no way way of knowing how many counterfeit shares exist in any companies. The SEC is the only one who knows, and they refuse to release that information, saying that "The release of this information could be used to engage in unlawful upward manipulation of the price of the securities in order to 'squeeze' the firms improperly."

Pay attention here: the SEC won't tell us how many shares have been illegally counterfeited, and how widespread the illegal manipulation is, because they're worried about illegal manipulation. Huh? Also, how could releasing the number of counterfeit shares sold in a particular stock create "unlawful upward manipulation of the price" unless the counterfeiting is so widespread that it created substantial "unlawful DOWNWARD manipulation of the price" due to massive illegal short selling? Even Orwell would shake his head at that bit of Doublespeak.


While naked shorting continues in spite of the "new" regulations, some even suggest that Donaldson is leaving the SEC because he supported the end of this practice. Of course, one has to ask, why was no action taken in the first year of his watch.

Gold and silver, often the victim of short trading along with mining stocks, are but the tip of the iceberg in this reverse "Robin Hood" scandal.

All the more reason to "take delivery" of your own Precious.

GoldiloxTrade Deficit#1340357/13/05; 09:49:52


Another revelation is that our balance of trade deficit with China got worse (I know, you're surprised, right?).

Deficits were recorded, in billions of dollars, with China $15.8 ($14.7 prev).
Which means China can up its takeover bid for Unocal and trade with the U.S. will pay for it. Economists are a funny lot in that they try to divine where the car is going by looking in the rear view mirror while career into the future. Today's report is just another milepost that means next to nothing, except to demonstrate that the teachings of economics (that markets look into the future 12-18 months) is academic gibberish.


Even doped up on post-op pain meds, George makes more sense that the media hypesters. Scarey thought!

Now why are Congressmen now hollaring for a slowdown of China's appetite for UnoCal, when nary a one was out lobbying for manufacturing or computer service jobs that went to China and India in the last 4 years?

Wal-Mart and IBM yes! but UnoCal. No?

Omagosh, the "monster that ate NY and SF" is now threatening our Asian oil garden!

GoldiloxDumbest Kid in the world#1340367/13/05; 10:15:06

Here's a joke I got via email today. I think the punch line very aptly describes our preference for "hard money" over paper assets.

WORLDS DUMBEST KID: A young boy enters a barber shop and the barber
whispers to his customer, "This is the dumbest kid in the world. Watch
while I prove it to you." The barber puts a dollar bill in one hand and
two quarters in the other, then calls the boy over and asks, "Which do you
want, son?" The boy takes the quarters and leaves the dollar. "What did I
tell you?" said the barber. "That kid never learns!"

Later, when the customer leaves, he sees the same young boy coming out of the ice cream store. "Hey, son! May I ask you a question? Why did you take the quarters instead of the dollar bill?" The boy licked his cone and replied, "Because the day I take the dollar, the game's over!

2023Where is everyone today?#1340377/13/05; 13:24:44

It sure is quiet here today.....US peso back up, gold down, oil below $US 60 again.........time to trade a few dollars for gold.
USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1340387/13/05; 13:44:56">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Wednesday Market Excerpts

July 13 (from Reuters) -- U.S. gold futures settled lower but still within a well-worn range on Wednesday as the dollar bounced back after a two-day sell-off following a narrower U.S. trade deficit than expected in May.

COMEX August gold futures slid back $2.50 to end at $424.60 after dealing from $428 to $424.

Prices mainly aped moves in the euro after the U.S. government reported the trade gap in May narrowed to $55.35 billion, lower than the forecast for a $57 billion shortfall, easing concerns about U.S. external financing problems.

After a muted European session, "gold traded sideways until the U.S. open, when the dollar's reaction to the trade data prompted further offers," James Moore, analyst at, said.

Gold's rally over the past three years was partly due to the huge U.S. trade gap, which pushed the dollar into a 30 percent decline against the euro by the end of last year. However, this year, rising interest rates have capped gold while the dollar has firmed. A stronger dollar weighs on dollar-priced gold as it gets costlier for traders holding foreign currencies.

Dealers said trader profit taking also seemed to pressure gold after it hit resistance above a short-term trend line.

Volumes have been light in gold and prices confined to a range due to summer holidays, after liquidation-type profit taking by funds starting late in June shoved prices off from three-month highs near $445.

"In the current slow conditions, gold looks comfortable in its $420-430 range with the dollar providing the large part of the market's intraday direction," Moore said.

---(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

canamami"Countdown to a Meltdown:#1340397/13/05; 15:36:23

America's coming economic crisis. A look back from the election of 2016" by James Fallows, in the July/August 2005 edition of The Atlantic.

The underlying theory is similar to that generally put forward on this Forum. One paragraph as an example:

...Once the run on the dollar started, everything seemed to happen at once. Two days after the Venezuelan oil shock the dollar was down by 25 percent against the yen and the yuan. Two weeks later it was down by 50 percent. By the time trading "stabilized," one U.S. dollar bought only 2.5 Chinese yuan - not eight, as it had a year earlier. ....

GoldiloxBudget deficit lowered#1340407/13/05; 15:40:21

CNBC's Larry Kudlow is softly grilling Josh Bolton, the White House budget director on the announcement of reduced budget even with increased discretionary spending. They are also praising the tax cuts as economic stimulus, and suggesting that deficit reduction is "ahead of schedule".

All good and well, but no mention of the the off-budget spending, which thanks to Iraq involvement, is much larger than its historical proportion.

If anyone has those numbers available, I'd love to see the comparison of the whole picture before jumping on the economic "victory" band wagon.


TownCrierUnderlying condition would not seem to bode well for corporate investments#1340417/13/05; 16:19:48

HEADLINE: U.S. commercial paper to rise 33 pct in 2006 - S&P

NEW YORK, July 13 (Reuters) - U.S. companies are boosting sales of short-term debt, and a bigger jump is expected next year as earnings slow and firms borrow more for capital spending, Standard & Poor's said on Wednesday.

Sales of commercial paper by nonfinancial companies are expected to rise 17.9 percent this year and 32.5 percent in 2006, after a 13.9 percent rise in 2004, S&P said.

Although earnings are strong, they are expected to decelerate going forward, which will increase companies' cash needs, S&P said.

Companies often use commercial paper for day-to-day needs because it is easier to issue and cheaper than bonds.

^------(from url)-----^

When was the last time a tangible asset such as gold had to issue commercial paper and borrow money to keep the lights on, to pay salaries, of for general bridge financing to stave off bankrupcy?

Never. Because gold metal is ALWAYS "good as gold" -- free and clear. Make sure you have ample amounts in your portfolio.


Federal_ReservesGOVRON#1340427/13/05; 19:05:33

I would focus on the debt levels of the US Government and the speed at which it is growing.


Debt including everything the government owes including social security "surplus" in nearly 8 trillion.

Public debt is growing at nearly 2-3 times GDP.

I like the fact that everyone is so excited and happy on the CRUDELOW show that the deficit is only going be 333 billion! LOL! This is the kind of complacent attitude that is good for gold. Any attempt to seriously address the twin deficits (fiscal/trade) would hurt gold.

What we have in Washington, is the moral equivalent of ENRON, I guess you could call it GOVRON. It's a shameless operation they are running there. Its getting far far out of hand, nearly out of control.

2023@ Federal_Reserves#1340437/13/05; 21:16:30

I would laugh if GOVRON weren't so criminal.
mikalTest#1340447/13/05; 21:44:27

'The calm before the storm'
GoldiloxUnions in gold mine wage dispute#1340457/13/05; 21:45:25


JOHANNESBURG ( -- On Wednesday, the three labour unions involved in wage talks with South Africa's Chamber of Mines, declared a dispute, another step towards possible strike action. However, given the parlous state of employment in the country's all-important old-mining industry, declaring a disptue may well not be tremendously threatening.

The announcement came after the union failed to accept the latest offer by the Chamber of a 4% increase in wages and conditions of service for employees. The wage offer, alone, was for a 3% increase.

"The gold producers, today, continued heaping insult on the mineworkers by merely adding a half percent to their offer of 2.5%," claimed the National Union of Mineworkers, in a statement.

The other two unions involved are the United Association of South Africa (UASA) and Solidarity. The Chamber of Mines negotiates on behalf of its members, including Harmony Gold, Gold Fields and AngloGold Ashanti.

Once again the Chamber pointed at the marginal or loss-making position of about four fifths of gold mines in South Africa, as the reason for its lower than inflation offer.


Nothing much new here, as the miners (like most workers globally) struggle to keep wages abreast of inflation.

Of course, here in the states, we see 3 brokerage execs take "early outs" to the tune of $140M. That adds about $1.25 to the average salary of ALL US workers for the week, but only 3 people see any increase. It must really screw up the B(L)S numbers.

GoldiloxBATTLE ROYAL FOR CB ALPHA DOG#1340467/13/05; 22:52:50


The US Federal Reserve is engaged in a significant battle behind the scenes in the banking world. This is a true battle of the titans. The USFed is a household word, with its Chairman Greenspan a celebrated icon, a hero among inflation supporters, nay monetary drug addicts intent on speculation in lieu of actual work, and a savior in engineering a climate for commercial purchases without money. However, the Bank for International Settlements is the "old world" central bank from Switzerland. A better description of BIS is one of insurer/ underwriter/ counselor to all major world central banks. The war is over supremacy, leadership, lately steeped in defiance. The battle is over sound monetary policy. The true alpha dog is the BIS. The pretender to the throne is the USFed, whose role has been the more public for scrutiny since the 2000 stock bust, which was clearly the responsibility of the USFed in a grand colossal error. That concluding event might have merely stood as the climax of the Asian Meltdown of 1997, which took three years to reach the USA shores. The bust drew countless billions of European money, the resentment for which has not dissipated.


In his inimitable style, Jim Willie CB breaks down the CB battle Royale. Can't tell the players without a program!

Good Read.

TopazLong Bond.#1340477/14/05; 02:02:45

Long Yield continues to avoid this 4.3% like the plague. Although the "No-Go Zone" is narrowing, we're STILL convinced this represents the Zero% (at roughly 4.33%)
This Chart is just as ugly as DX from a direction PoV, but Yield down from here (convincingly anyway) seems a pipedream methinks.

Buck UP...Yield UP...Gold (come the 27th ...or beforehand if Ag gets going) up,Up, UP!

BoilermakerSouthwest Air Hedging Oil for Profits#1340487/14/05; 06:35:13

"The Dallas-based carrier reported second-quarter profit of $159 million, or 20 cents a share, compared with $113 million, or 14 cents a share, a year earlier......
Even as rivals post billions of dollars in losses, Southwest has managed to stay profitable because of its extensive purchasing of contracts that lock in prearranged prices of crude and heating oil.
Those hedges -- which cut operating costs by $196 million in the quarter -- have made Southwest a favorite with investors. It is the most valuable U.S. airline even though it ranks only No. 6 by revenue passenger miles, the industry's usual yardstick."

Southwest's hedging gains exceded their overall profits. This is great while it lasts but it doesn't bode well for their core business which presumably would have operated at a loss without the hedges.
I see the possibility that some major US airlines will be nationalized at some point like the failing railroads in the 60's. Maybe called Govron Airlines? ;)

GonlyoldWho's At Fault?#1340497/14/05; 08:15:31

"Public debt is growing at nearly 2-3 times GDP."

Hm-m-m-m, who's fault is this? Not mine, I'm out of debt. Yes, I know FRN's are debt but I have no say on that. But what I do have a say on is my pesonal borrowing. How many here are free of the oppression of debt? I had one person here tell me that he would use debt if it was economically advantageous. (Never quite understood that.) People seem to like instant electronic fund payments. Convenience rules! But worse than that is that business likes instant payments. And with instant payments comes instant control. Anybody care about oppression?

One of the main problems with peopole using credit is that it affects all of us. With more poeple using digital money, companies are trashing cash sales in favor of digital sales. Goods are being offered for digital payments only. That means that people like me, who want to pay with cash, are being forced to use credit: no credit, no goods. (I think there's a pun in there.)

Sorry to be so blunt with you fine folks, but it's time to look into the mirror to see where one of the problems is.

The Invisible HandOne Justice for All#1340507/14/05; 08:56:41

Gonlyold (7/14/05; 08:15:31MT - msg#: 134049)
Who's At Fault?
"Public debt is growing at nearly 2-3 times GDP."
Wouldn't it be (a) just (return of Justice)
if the culprits were sentenced like
(instead of???? - I don't know the details of the Ebbers case)
Bernie Ebbers?

TownCrierU.S. Treasury to sell $34 billion bills on Monday#1340517/14/05; 09:30:43

WASHINGTON, July 14 (Reuters) - ..... Proceeds from the sale will be used to refund an estimated $31.44 billion publicly held bills maturing July 21 and to raise new cash of about $2.56 billion.

^------(from url)----^

For our government, borrowing anew to pay for previous borrowing and then borrowing some more has become as natural as breathing in and out.


Great Albino BatGOLD bashed this morning...#13405207/14/05; 10:41:25

"Ho-hum! The boys are at it again!

"Big deal, down below $420. So?

"You gold-price manipulators are having your day; go on with your tricks, with you attempts to hide the Sun with the palm of your hand.

"Long after you are gone, gold will still be here, valued as only GOLD can be.

"You boys want to turn the world upside down, to turn artificiality into reality, and banish reality.

"Have it your way - you have the guns! We just watch and wait." - So chant The Eumenides.


SurvivorWhat Is Credit, Really?#13405307/14/05; 10:45:30


How do you define credit? So far as I can tell, the greenbacks in your pocket represent nothing more than a pre-printed expression of credit. So does your checkbook. Only physical gold can facilitate a transaction that is not credit based.

Regardless of Whether a transaction is expedited digitally or by printed paper, the value of the media is still zero. The only thing that brings a representation of value to the transaction is the implied credit behind the digits or the paper. This principle also applies to the use of credit cards to accomplish a transaction -GIVEN- that the transaction is cleared from the account before it becomes interest bearing debt.

I may have been the one who suggested to you earlier that using credit is advantagous. I thought this was obvious because wise use of a credit card includes employing an account that provides a discount when the balance is paid each month. In my case, that is around 2%. I run almost everything though this account. It costs me nothing and it yields a 2% discount on everything I purchase (plus I only write one check a month).

- Survivor

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A risk-free request; helping you enter the gold market with grace and confidence.#13405407/14/05; 10:54:07

GoldiloxShort Run#13405507/14/05; 10:55:57

As I suspected, the pre-witching Friday short run is being executed. The rapid recovery of the HUI in the last few weeks has taken the miners I watch to some nice call option price levels, and the big guys that wrote those contracts are gonna pressure the July calls back to lower levels before Friday close, IMHO.

If this is the case, we could see resumption of the longer term upward trend starting Monday.

TownCrier"The Art of ____"#13405707/14/05; 11:52:41

HEADLINE: China's forex reserves still rising fast

BEIJING, July 14 (Reuters) - China's foreign exchange reserves rose $51.9 billion in the second quarter to a record $711 billion...

China has the world's largest stockpile of reserves after Japan's. In the second quarter it added to its hoard at the rate of $570 million a day, or nearly $24 million an hour.

The rapid growth in reserves complicates China's efforts to manage monetary policy because the central bank [...issues...] yuan in exchange for foreign currencies to maintain the yuan's fixed peg of near 8.28 to the dollar.

...Beijing has pledged to make the currency more flexible through gradual reforms over time, but says it must first strengthen its financial system and ensure its economy is stable. easing of market speculation and of foreign pressure may help create the conditions for a change to the yuan's peg before the end of the year.

...Upward pressure on the yuan is also coming from domestic firms and residents converting dollar savings into the currency.

^----(from url)----^

On that final note, this is also apt time for a reminder of an article featured at the DMR page:
HEADLINE: China to boost demand for individual gold investment
(Reuters, Jul6)
China will allow the country's four major commercial banks to sell gold bars to their customers in the near future to boost demand...

It could be deemed attractive domestic policy to let the residents bid up the price of gold with their flight from dollar savings instead of contributing direct pressure to the yuan/dollar exchange rate.

But getting back to the build-up of reserves as indicated in the original article, given the sheer size of current holdings, at a mere $18.5 billion offering as seen recently, think how many Unocals China could potentially bid on and acquire.

And as mentioned previously, such takeover bids are met with roadblocks, China will sure ponder "What's the practical use of these growing piles of dollars, anyway? What good are they?"

When a system's flaws become so starkly apparent, such as seen in the reserve structure of the international monetary system, you can be sure that change -- either by cool pre-emptive calcuation or (more likely) by crisis-response -- is not far behind.

Limit your direct exposure to dollars. Diversify with the internationally acceptible alternative: gold.


GoldiloxChina de-peg#13405807/14/05; 12:34:51

@ TC,

your quote: " easing of market speculation and of foreign pressure may help create the conditions for a change to the yuan's peg before the end of the year."

If we thnk currency speculation has been wid in the last couple years, wait until this event explodes on the market.

Coney Island will envy the roller coaster ride on the Forex.

Goldiloxcorrection#13405907/14/05; 12:35:47

Wild, not wid! LOL
mikal@Goldilox#13406007/14/05; 13:21:13

Re: "If we think currency speculation has been wild in the last couple years, wait until this event explodes on the market."
Got me to thinking, with all the talk about the absolute NEED for currency and exchange market "stability" from China as well as from the G8 bankers in contrast to "explosion". Rumor has it there are two types of US notes waiting to be circulated in a new valuation scheme of some kind. Concurrent with a yuan devaluaton? Possible stabilizers and cushions would have to be heavy duty. Gold should also enter the picture to achieve that function IMO.
Otherwise, gold would still be needed, except even more so.

GoldiloxThat was the year . . .#13406107/14/05; 14:12:59

I just got a belated birthday card from my Dad.

It listed the follwing stats for 1951:

Ave US salary: $1436
Fed budget: $45B
Fed Debt: $255B
Unemployment: 5.3%
Cost of US postage: $0.03
Ave gasoline price: $0.29

Oh, and the Yanks beat the Giants in the Fall Classic - even without the dang "Rally Monkey"!

The FED sure has done a great job of ""fighting inflafla!" - LOL

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#13406207/14/05; 14:16:04">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Thursday Market Excerpts

July 14 (from DowJones) -- Dave Meger, analyst at Alaron Trading, said Thursday's dip was purely technical and able to happen quickly due to low volume.

"We are in the slow summer demand season and it's easy to see a drop in volume support," Meger said.

(from Reuters) -- Benchmark COMEX August gold futures ended $4.40 lower at $420.20 -- its weakest settlement since June 2.

Funds and speculative players turned heavy sellers in gold as oil fell from its high above $60 a barrel, dulling the metal's allure as a hedge against inflation, said floor traders.

"This is all liquidation, basis the crude oil collapse," said one long-time COMEX floor source.

"We ran sell stops (pre-placed automatic sell orders) from $422 all the way down to the lows. Then we held and short-cover bounced on the close."

August gold's session range ran from $425.10 to $419.20, where market watchers saw layers of chart support beginning.

The fall also was accelerated by a firmer dollar against the euro by midday, sources said.

But, following some vulnerability in the gold market during thin summer trading because of vacations, prices could strengthen again in a few months, analysts said.

"We believe that gold is poised to reach the $450-460 level by late September/October (historically the peak time of the summer seasonal rally)," Merrill Lynch analysts said in a weekly metals report.

(from MarketWatch) -- Thomas Hartmann, analyst at Altavest Worldwide Trading ... warned that gold is in "oversold territory."

"Gold remains on the defense but is building a base that I believe can lead to new highs above $455 sooner than most people think," said Peter Grandich, editor of The Grandich Letter.

"The U.S. dollar may have made an important top," he said, adding that "Wall Street is full of dollar bulls and the setting is right for them to be crushed -- again."

A reversal in the dollar's fortunes would bode well for gold, making the precious metal cheaper for foreign investors who must exchange their currencies to buy the dollar-denominated metal. It would also prompt many traders to take investment refuge in gold.

Prices for gold remain "stuck in a relatively narrow range after the recent surge higher and subsequent selloff," said John Reade, an analyst at UBS in London. Looking ahead, "we suspect that the short-term outlook for gold is for lower rather than higher prices," he said in a research note. "The dollar looks firm, and the very strong physical demand that assisted gold during the liquidation in May is now mostly absent for seasonal reasons," he noted.

Still, "any further weakness will present longer-terminvestors with good buying opportunity," he said, adding that he believes gold will move higher over the next 18 months on "expected weakening" in the dollar.

-----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

TownCrierMerrill Lynch sees gold at $725#13406307/14/05; 14:22:50

Bloomberg -- The price of gold may rise to $725 an ounce by 2010 as surging economic growth turns China into the world's biggest jewellery consumer, said Graham Birch, who manages a Merrill Lynch & Co fund that has grown fivefold since 2000.

Rising demand in China and a weakening dollar pushed the price of gold in London to a 16-year high of $456.89 an ounce in December. Gold last reached $725 an ounce in January 1980.

"The Chinese are getting richer, and have very high savings rates," said Birch, who helps manage $8.5 billion in mining assets for Merrill Lynch in London, including the Gold & General Fund.

Citigroup Inc said on May 19 the gold price this year will surpass the 16-year high reached in December.

Fat Prophets, a privately owned financial-advisory company in Sydney, said on Wednesday gold may rise to $850 an ounce in as little as three years.

^----(from url)---^

Posted here in case you've overlooked this link among the DMR's "top stories" section.


2023Oil down, gold down, homebuilders up..........#13406407/14/05; 14:34:02

Well I come home this afternoon from my burger flipping job downtown and I see on CNBC that crude oil is down over $2.00 ......"sell it - who needs oil" they are probably saying......and that gold is down a few bucks too, about $420 or so........."who needs gold we've got Greenspin and W". CNBC is busy touting homes ..... and those wonderful homebuilding stocks ...are going to the moon!.............What an insane world that gets stranger every day. Almost time for another call to George at CPM. Have a great day all.
exponential"he would use debt if it was economically advantageous"#13406507/14/05; 14:46:37


Everything I own is paid for, and I pay off my credit cards every month.

However, if I ever become convinced that hyperinflation is imminent, I will borrow as much as I can, and keep rolling it over, like Hugo Stinnes. I may use the borrowed money to buy gold wholesale and sell it retail, or I may use it for some other purpose, but I will use it. That's the only way to stay ahead of hyperinflation.

riding-bittsBayer & eurobond purchase#13406607/14/05; 15:26:26

Bayer(the aspirin company) on it's web site ( a blurb about their purchase of eurobonds and when one clicks on it one gets the message that in order to see the blurb one must certify that one is not a US or Italian person. Anyone know whats' up?


White HillsRove#13406707/14/05; 16:18:55

Sir Goldielox, I haven't completed my investgation of the Rove affair. However the information that I have found so far does not warrant any of the comments that you made. I suggest you look again to your position. If you have any evidence that supports your position I would be interested. With Respect, White Hills
arbyhWhite Hill.....The Emperor has no clothes.#13406807/14/05; 16:48:08

It is clear that someone leaked the information about the Senator's wife's identity. Look at the timing...who had the motive to sling adversity and muddy the waters in the face of the Senator?
When the leak occurred it created misdirection from real issues, so as to redirect media and public to discuss and focus on other issues.
Look at CIA "systematic dysfunction" methods of operation and you see blue prints for Republican offensive and defensive game play in practice on many levels all the way back to the Dukakis election bid and still in practice now.

In addition, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure." I noticed all the damn CPI figures being reported are saying minus food and energy in the footnotes. Why is that?: liars figure.
Gold was at 400 an ounce in 1994 too...must be negative inflation I guess. Sure right and monkeys fly out my bottom. Been to the grocery store lately?

As far as gold gold, salt it away for a rainy day...wait and see, and hope that the crap never truly hits the fan in a mega crap storm.

ArcticfoxFrom today's Midas..#13406907/14/05; 17:10:07

The King Report
M. Ramsey King Securities, Inc.
Thursday July 14, 2005 – Issue 3196 "Independent View of the News"

We erred in yesterday's missive by not listing the date of the comments attributed to James Cramer. The remarks are from his 2/29/00 column, which was two weeks before THE TOP of the bubble. We listed the link but we should've posted the date. The point is at major tops strident and unabashed bullishness with excuses for poor fundamentals pervades the Street.

Even though there was a greater than expected decline in crude oil and gasoline inventories, energy products fell sharply yesterday afternoon. Media stories attributed the declines to an increase in distillate inventories. This is totally wrong and is another example of financial writers parroting information from some trader source without doing the work and checking the facts.

The reason for the decline in oil and energy products is the unexpected 1% contraction in oil consumption from China in Q2. The NY Times: "A sudden and mysterious drop in China's oil consumption helped to push down the International Energy Agency's estimate on Wednesday of global demand for this year. After growing 11 percent in 2003 and 15.4 percent last year, China's overall oil use declined 1 percent in the second quarter from the comparable quarter a year earlier, the agency said." The IEA lowered its estimate of China's oil consumption growth to 5.5% from 7.1%. US demand was lowered to +0.8% from 1.4%.

We have been remiss in not mentioning another important factor for the explosive rally than commenced last Thursday – option expiration. We regularly note that a triple-digit DJIA rally usually precedes expiration in the window marked by the Thursday of the week prior to expiration WEEK (6 sessions prior to expiry) and the Wednesday of expiration week.

After the 1987 Crash, regulators and the US Congress became extremely concerned about the role of derivatives in the market, particularly at expiration. The ‘boys’, which at the time were program traders and option arbs, started playing their games on the day, or two, before expiration.

During the late ‘80s when sell imbalances on expiration threatened to produce a huge stock market sell-off, the program trading community and related traders would collectively intervene and absorb the sales.

In the early ‘90s, the Wednesday prior to expiration became known as ‘Weird Wednesday’ because wise guys would exercise copious amounts of in-the-money OEX options (either puts or calls) just before the close. This would render option arbs massively short or long; forcing them to cover the next day. This pushed prices in the direction that favored the manipulators.

Back then, we had a few conversions with a staffer from Rep. Markey's (D-MA) office. Markey then headed the Congressional oversight subcommittee on markets. The manipulators were told point blank that if they did not ‘cease and desist’ the Weird Wednesday gambit, Congress would take action.

So now the machinations take place far enough in advance of expiration that few ‘experts’ even notice the regular triple-digit DJIA rally in the 2 to 6 sessions that precedes expiration.

Numerous articles have appeared that higher than expected taxes receipts have trimmed the deficit by about $100B. Of course econobulls and Bushies attribute the higher tax receipts to a ‘booming economy’.

Last week we noted that in the Q1 GDP report, disposable income increased only 0.4%; so it can't be wage growth. Yesterday's NY Times illuminates: "The biggest jump was not from taxes withheld from salaries but from quarterly payments on investment gains and business earnings, which were up 20 percent this year. That was similar, though much smaller than a sharp rise in tax revenue during the stock market boom of the late 1990's, which was followed by plunges in revenue when the market bubble burst. But many independent analysts cautioned that the improvement, though notable, could prove ephemeral and that it did little to eliminate much bigger fiscal problems just over the horizon." In the late ‘90s, capital gains from the bubble increased tax receipts; now it's real estate.

"In addition, while a lot of the increase in tax revenue flows from the improving economy and higher incomes, part of the jump stemmed from a special factor: the expiration of a temporary tax break that allowed companies to write off their investment in new equipment much more rapidly than normal.

That tax break reduced revenue by about $61 billion in 2004, but it merely postponed taxes that companies would have to pay once their equipment was fully depreciated."

canamamiChina threatens America with nukes#13407007/14/05; 17:37:45

Further to a discussion a couple of weeks back. Don't allow anger at gold manipulation drive you into the arms of your country's enemies.

Then again, let's hope it is all bluster. The US would wipe China off the face of the earth if it pulled a stunt like that, and this general must be aware of that fact.

Top Chinese general warns US over attack
By Alexandra Harney in Beijing and Demetri Sevastopulo and Edward Alden in Washington
Published: July 14 2005 21:59 | Last updated: July 15 2005 00:03

China is prepared to use nuclear weapons against the US if it is attacked by Washington during a confrontation over Taiwan, a Chinese general said on Thursday.

"If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons," said General Zhu Chenghu.


slingshot"Rally Monkey"#13407107/14/05; 18:22:43

The "Rally Monkey" has retired to his Envioment Frendly Enclosure. He regrets his short sighted debut, but vows to return when the price of gold reaches $451.00. He is very proud of his golden fur which adorns his body. He also said, "All good things come to those who wait".
Had help from Dr. Dolittle.

Smile! Fellow Kights and Ladies.

slingshotForgive Me#13407207/14/05; 18:27:26

Fellow Knights and Ladies.

TownCrier'Convertibility no answer for rising forex reserves'#13407307/14/05; 18:50:57

NEW DELHI, JULY 14: Although the best way to deal with the problems relating to mounting foreign exchange reserves is to go in for capital account convertibility, India is not yet ready to take the plunge in view of the fiscal constraints. The right course for India, suggested the Asian Development Bank (ADB), would be to try to generate demand for dollars by liberalising imports.

The ADB study on 'Foreign Exchange Reserves, Exchange Rate Regimes, and Monetary Policy: Issues in Asia,' by Akikko Terada-Hagiwara, pointed out that further trade liberalisation would stimulate imports, mopping up the excess supply of dollars and relieving the government of the burden of low-yielding foreign exchange reserves.

The accumulation of foreign exchange reserves, according to the study, can be attributed to the intervention by the monetary authority in the foreign exchange market....

The intervention by monetary authorities, the study said, in many cases did not prevent nominal and real appreciation of currencies. ......."as inflows persist and reserves accumulate, the countries need to be ready for the eventual capital outflows and policy adjustments."

^----(from url)-----^

As you consider this, bear in mind what I said earlier about China liberalizing the markets to allow gold ownership among its people.

The more you know, the more you choose gold to survive and prosper during the coming transition.


GoldiloxRove Information#13407407/14/05; 19:20:26

@ White Hills,

When I refute someone's analysis, I ALWAYS TRY to post the info and source. Please offer me the same consideration. You keep saying, "My references don't concur", well, whip them out, dude, and let's see if they whither or bloom in the light of day!

Until I see information and SOURCES, I have no impetus to retract anything that was posted. Most of what I have seen so far this week (even on Bubble-Vision) SUPPORTS the allegations. By the way, who told Rove? That's a crime as well, but oops, sorry, now we're getting a too deep into the coverup!

Reminds me of a song lyric I wrote for Mark Russell years back. It goes,

"Well Ollie North sold armaments to Iran,
So they could blow Iraq into the sea.
Yes, Ollie North sold armaments to Iran,
But with a little coverup,
Just a little coverup,
They could keep the news from you and me.
With a coverup,
With a coverup,
A little bloomin' cover - up!"

with apologies to "Enry Iggins"


MKTC#13407507/14/05; 19:20:58

At a time when quite often the important message is lost in a sea of information and opinion posted via the web, blogs, various newsletters, i.e. the rest. . .I hope that our readers do not overlook the very important insight imparted in #134073.

China and Japan, closed down from acquiring gold in sufficient quantity via official sector exchange simply because it isn't (and won't be) available, quietly passes the task to its citizenry -- an important stroke of cultural genius that few in the West will recognize for what it is. The East will acquire gold over time as a defense to the paper machinations of the West. That in turn, will provide a rising floor under the gold market as we proceed through the years to come.

Gold will not go away. No matter how hard they try, it will not go away.

slingshotNothing more distructive.#13407607/14/05; 19:37:07

The price of gold has fallen below $420 after several attempts to break resistance levels. Disappointment. Each charge to break resistance results in a setback. Adding insult to injury are those who prognostigate gold going to $575/ $850 /$950 and more. Three years. Ten Years. As they extrapulate into the future. Unless there is some unforeseen catastrophe, gold will assend and receed as it moves to greater heights and we will in a sense die from a thousand paper cuts should we not realise that we are not in control and this is what markets do. To the Lurkers and Newbies to the Gold Arena, I say these are times that will try mens souls and this arena is not for the faint of heart. I do not wish to compete with those whose armor has withstood the engagements of 10/15 or even 20 years. Only in my short time I can see through their eyes. So my Fellow Knights and Ladies, take each reversal in the POG as an gift and buy what you can afford, taking confidence that the Powers That Be will collapse as the fight for the world reserve currency ensues.

GoldiloxTax receipts#13407707/14/05; 19:38:02

@ ArcticFox,

"The biggest jump was not from taxes withheld from salaries but from quarterly payments on investment gains and business earnings, which were up 20 percent this year. "

I'm shocked!

It might be related to the fact that investment moguls are seeing their take increase by gazillions while the B(L)S tires to convince us that it means "wages" are up. LOL


canamamiReply to MK#13407807/14/05; 19:45:41


It could also be read as indicating that China has boxed itself in by acquiring too many dollars, as part of supporting the peg - i.e., they create artifical demand for dollars by buying them up as part of the yuan/dollar peg. A quick drop in the dollar would thus wipe out the value of China's dollar reserves.

This demonstrates to me that the peg is in fact an export subsidy.

To brainstorm: One possible strategy for the Chinese would be to use $US to buy up the shares of gold mining companies traded in the US. This would not trigger an immediate run on the metal price (as would purchases of the metal). It would maintain the peg for now. It would provide some exposure to gold in the future (maybe dividends paid in physical).

GoldiloxCovert Gold acquisition#13407907/14/05; 19:54:36

@ MK,

That really is a very important, if not oft' mentioned, point. The West, in its complacency, harbors fewer "personal libertarians" than the East, whose less than dependable governments have constantly reminded of them to take care of the "home front" first.

The eventual winners in the "bugger thy neighbor's currency" war will be NEITHER gubmint, but more likely the individuals who protect themselves and their families during the more uncertain times (AKA those who lose the least).

GoldiloxGold Shares#13408007/14/05; 20:00:12

@ canmami,

Interesting hypothesis, especially as the better gold shares (unhedged) have been very stable and rising during the latest DX rebound.

Gandalf the WhiteLOOK Sir GAB !!! The GOLD P&F Chart is now ---#1340817/14/05; 20:26:27$GOLD,PWTADANRBO[PA][D][F1!3!!!2!20]&pref=G

70,000 !!!
Get ready to change directions.

slingshotand so it begins#1340827/14/05; 20:39:59

Yesterday. my city voted to raise fees on all recreational facilities, not for the enhancement but to cover for decrease in revenue to the city. Shame! It only hurts the poor and those who use these facilities that are on fixed income. My city lost 3 million to a bad deal in development and now they will tax everyone for their incompentance. Next will be Gas. Then Property. Each city becoming a Fuedal State.
Damn, Where is my Pitchfork!

*********************************************************** To USAGOLD
It is wise to open the forum to subjects that skirt the progress of gold. Thank You. For we as Goldbugs see life through a different set of glasses and things that impact our lives are different and truly interest me what happens in Great Britian, Austrailia, China and so forth.

DruidRussian/China Ten Activate 10 Divisions To Counter US #1340837/14/05; 20:54:35


"Russian Intelligence Analysts are reporting today that both President Putin (Russia) and President Hu (China) have ordered the immediate activation of 10 Combat Ready Divisions to counter the increasingly aggressive moves being made by the United States in the Caspian Oil Regions of Central Asia. Special Forces Army Units of both Russian Spetsnaz and Chinese Immediate Action Units were also ordered to be immediately deployed to both Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan to surround the large American Military bases in those regions, and that the governments of both of these countries have ordered the Americans to leave.

The government of Uzbekistan had called first for these actions, and as we can read as reported by the Indian National Newspaper Hindu News Service in its article titled

Uzbekistan Steps Up Pressure On US To Close Base

and which says -

"Uzbekistan is stepping up pressure on the United States to withdraw its air base set up in the Central Asian country for operations in neighbouring Afghanistan. Uzbekistan also said that the United States had not paid takeoff and landing fees, as well as compensation for security services, new infrastructure, ecological damage and inconvenience to the local population.

The statement was issued two days after the Shanghai Cooperation Organisation called for the United States and its coalition allies in Afghanistan to set a date for withdrawing their military bases from Central Asia. Last month Uzbekistan introduced severe restrictions on American flights from the Khanabad base forcing the U.S. command to redeploy some aircraft to Afghanistan. Kyrgyzstan has joined Uzbekistan in calling on Washington to shut down its air base near the Kyrgyz capital Bishkek."

The government of Kyrgyzstan has also called for the Americans to leave their country, and as we can read as reported by the RIA Novosti News Service in their article titled

Kyrgyz Ambassador: US Base Must Go - Russia's Should Stay

and which says,

"The United States' military base near the Manas Airport, in the Central Asian republic of Kyrgyzstan, must go and Russia's, at Kant, should stay, the Kyrgyz Ambassador to Russia said Monday at a press conference here. Apas Jumagulov recalled the recent Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) summit explaining the need for the Manas base's withdrawal by the fact that the situation in the neighboring Afghanistan was returning to normal."

The actions of the United States Military Leaders though to these demands to leave have been met instead with their increasing their combat capabilities in both Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, and in total disregard to both Russian and Chinese warnings issued to them, and of which can read as reported by the USA Today News Service in their article titled

China, Russia-Led Alliance Wants Date For US Pullout

and which says

"A regional alliance led by China and Russia called Tuesday for the U.S. and its coalition allies in Afghanistan to set a date for withdrawing from several states in Central Asia, reflecting growing unease at America's military presence in the region. The Shanghai Cooperation Organization, which groups Russia, China, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, urged a deadline be set for withdrawal of the foreign forces from its member states in light of what it said was a decline in active fighting in Afghanistan. The alliance's move appeared to be an attempt to push the United States out of a region that Moscow regards as historically part of its sphere of influence and in which China seeks a dominant role because of its extensive energy resources."

Angering President Putin also has been the United States pressuring the European Union to attempt to take away Russia's vast oil resources, and as we can read as reported by the Moscow Times News Service in their article titled

Putin's Aide Warns Of Finno-Ugric Conspiracy To Seize Russia's Oil Assets"

Druid: A very interesting set of articles if true.

GonlyoldWho's At Fault?#1340847/14/05; 21:10:44

Survivor said, "Only physical gold can facilitate a transaction that is not credit based."

For the most part, I agree. Keep in mind there is bartering. But I cannot phantom why you would jeopardize the very foundation of private transactions by helping facilitate a digital economy. Only if we initiating parties are able to conduct business amoungst ourselves, without being forced to include a third party in our dealings, are we truly free to engage in private enterprise. Being forced to use credit is being forced to include the bank in our dealings. Being forced to use a check is being forced to include a bank in our dealings.

When you say, "the wise use of a credit card includes employing an account that provides a discount when the balance is paid each month. In my case, that is around 2%. I run almost everything though this account. It costs me nothing and it yields a 2% discount on everything I purchase (plus I only write one check a month).", it impresses me as a philosophy of someone not fully cognizant of the transaction. (I truly hope that I said that without sounding antagonistic.)

You are, in effect, paying for your (and my - unfortunately) oppression. Have you read the terms of your banking contract? I'm not sure what exactly you agreed to but let me relate some terms of a recent bank card application I received.

The bank, Chase in this case, wants me to agree to:

"...(A)uthorize (the bank) to allocate (my) payments and credits in a way that is most favorable to or convenient for (the bank)."; i.e., not looking out for my best interests.

Have "Claims and disputes subject to arbitration."; i.e., no court proceedings.

Have the bank "...reserve the right to change the terms of (my) account (including APR's) at any time, for any reason..."; i.e., complete subjection to the bank.

Allow an increase in the APR should the bank not recieve my minimun payment on "any other account or loan with (the bank)...";i.e., we increase your APR at the first sign of financial problems.

If " fail to make payment to another creditor when due...we demand immediate payment of your outstanding balance..."; i.e., if you're having financial difficulty, the bank wants to make sure it gets it's money first, without regard to your other obligations.

That's what getting paid the 2% from the bank buys you. It's not "costing (you) nothing". It's costing you your freedom. Surely you didn't think the bank was just being nice to you? They're in business to take your money or your collateral that you mentioned in your application.

And surely you don't think this oppression stops with just currency do you? The gold bugs on this site are in jeopardy too. Once you can only buy things with digital money, how are the physical gold holders going to conduct business? Afterall, physical offerings, whether they be paper cash (fiat) or gold, will not be acceptable. And if and when that day comes, how much would you give to come back in time to today, and not help promote the use of digital money?

I could agree to let you run your business as you see fit if it didn't affect me. But as more and more people began to use more and more credit, companies are more and more opting for credit-only transactions. This makes my pursuit of happiness most difficult. I hope I can say this in a tactful way, but your type of business philosophy is ruining mine.

slingshotSearch for the Renaissance/ A New Story#1340857/14/05; 22:33:00

Many stories of mans accomplishments have resonated with its final outcome, but few have followed the TRAIL to the Legend. It is the posters at this Forum from which I will weave a story of Gold. A story of Old. A never ending, Wrong verses Right, for which the GoldBug will Forever Endure!
The Bagpipes sound across the far reaching dales and sing to the glory of those who refuse to be subdued. It is many formed into one. Our story is old and our foundation strong.

Welcome to " The Search for the Renaissance"


A renouned wizard enters the plaza of a small village and instantly is engulfed by the people.Gandalf!, they cry out. Behind him enters the Knights of the Oaken Table of Yore. They have just come from the Final Battle.


SundeckChina: Long march to energy security #1340867/14/05; 23:12:07


``Iraq changed the government's thinking,'' said Pan Rui, an international relations expert at Fudan University in Shanghai. ``The Middle East is China's largest source of oil. America is now pursuing a grand strategy, the pursuit of American hegemony in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is the number one oil producer, and Iraq is number two [in terms of reserves]. Now, the United States has direct influence in both countries.''


Sundeck: Interesting perspective from China's point of view on energy's hard to imagine anything other than a hardening of international relationships (C.f. Druid's #134083) on the slippery-slide down from Hubbert's Peak...nations all clawing for a toe-hold...suspect we ain't seen nothin' yet...

With China's bid for Unocal going round and round the mulberry bush and Japan now opting to drill in nearby disputed waters, what else might we expect? I suspect we may see China and/or Japan bidding for other international oil companies that have strategic importance for themselves. After all, oil is bought and sold in dollars...right? Well what about oil producers?


GoldiloxNASA Temple 1 silence continues#1340877/15/05; 00:07:18


"Something's" definitely been happening, since the highly-publicized culmination of "Deep Impact" the other night, but NOT in public. Something that's potentially far more revealing than "just another successful NASA mission":

A behind-the-scenes-eruption -- currently taking place in Washington and in Pasadena -- over precisely what Deep Impact actually ran into the other night ....

How do we know that such "an intense backroom debate and controversey" is occurring inside NASA?

One major clue has been the simple fact that -- unlike ALL previous NASA deep space missions the Space Agency has EVER conducted, over the last 40 or so years (of which I've been a witness to the majority, first-hand ...) -- "Deep Impact," following its Hollywood-like climax, has produced a stunning ... deafening ... totally anomalous--



For the bargain price of $333M, the US paxpayers have so far gotten about 6 stills of the Temple 1 comet intercept and NO spectral data. Check out Richard Hoagland's web blog if you're interested in his analysis.

GoldiloxDennis' impact on gulf oil and futures markets#1340887/15/05; 00:34:23

Jim McCanney's Thursday, 7/14/05 show visits the irony of FEMA being ready in the exact location of Dennis' landfall, when NOAA readily admits that they cannot accurately predict paths.

Not unlike the pre-placement of 7 US carrier groups in the South China Sea just prior to the Indonesian EQ. What amazes me is that this is more carrier groups than have ever been amassed in even a war effort, and they just happened to all be on the other side of the Indonesian peninsula on Dec. 26th after leaving West Coast home ports only days after returning from other deployments (a few months earlier). The locals here (Navy families) were not too happy about this, as they did not get their normal 3 month "stand down" for refueling, restocking, and family R&R, and the only explanation given was "Pacific Ocean exercises".

$ Bill - you might find his hypotheses very interesting, as he discusses possible NWO role in these events and the potential for using storms to manipulate Oil and NatGas futures pricing and political links to the same.

Scroll down to the archive for today's date to get the REAL PLAYER stream link.

GoldiloxHP bone pile#1340897/15/05; 08:22:28

CNBC just announced HP is expected to lay off 15-20K, including retirement of their COO with their earnings announcement.

Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones . . .

Should ease some housing pressures in Cupertino! If there is a new wave of unemployment stateside, watch for the RE bubble to stumble, as new buyers are already stertched to astoundng credit limits.

GoldiloxEgyptian Chemist Arrested in London#1340907/15/05; 08:37:19


There's a report of an Egyptian national being captured this morning as the alleged mastermind of the London bombings of last week. We will hold the applause till more details come out. If true, score one for fine police work. However, I'd sure like to know more about the explosives involved which have been referred to as military in nature. Would a chemistry student build such explosives (more work) when nearly as good result might have been had from easier to formulate compounds?


I was asking this question as they announced the arrest. Added to the previous release, it suggests he was formulating "serialized" C4, as the previous reports suggested that the explosives were identified as from "miltary stock". I wonder if any of our media "Sherlock Holmes" types will even pick up this reporting discrepancy.

GoldiloxETF Hype#1340917/15/05; 09:14:32

Bob Pisani just did a piece on the Oil ETF that began trading on the LSE (not in US), suggesting that since the StreetTraks GLD debut defined the latest "top" in gold, that maybe release of the Oil ETF will define a "top" for oil.

Methinks the spin-meisters are working OT on this one! Score two whacks for the price of one!

KnallgoldGoldilox#1340927/15/05; 09:39:20

"NASA Temple 1 silence continues"

Deep Impact found out that Temple1 is made of pure Gold and now they wait for the next Goldrally with the announcement (think again about the name Deep Impact!)

GoldiloxCNOOC UnoCal potato getting microwave treatment#1340937/15/05; 10:14:32


WASHINGTON, July 14 (Reuters) - A senior House Republican wants to require the U.S. Energy Department to review China's bid to buy American oil producer Unocal Corp. as part of a sweeping energy bill that House and Senate negotiators began discussing on Thursday.

Republican Richard Pombo of California, chairman of the House Resources Committee, proposed an amendment which would require the U.S. Energy Secretary to submit a confidential report to the White House within six months on the implications of state-run CNOOC Ltd.'s $18.5 billion bid for Unocal.

The measure would require the Energy Department review before the Committee on Foreign Investments in the United States -- a multi-agency panel led by the Treasury Department -- could review CNOOC's acquisition plan.

"We must assess these matters now, rather than after CNOOC has acquired Unocal," Pombo wrote in a letter to Rep. Joe Barton, a Texas Republican.

CNOOC's bid for Unocal could be the "Sputnik of our time," Pombo said, referring to the satellite the Soviet Union launched in 1957, which spurred a Cold War space race.


CNBC also just announced a bill introduced in the Senate by Byron Dornan, SD, this morning to block the purchase.

This is shaping up to be quite the Congressional "donnybrook". I wonder where all these clowns were hiding when the bone pile jobs went to China and India. They seem a LOT more interested in their level of their gas tanks than the fate of their constituents.

GoldiloxRove blames Novak#1340947/15/05; 10:44:54

CNBC just reported that Karl Rove has told the press that he learned of Plame's CIA status from Bob Novak, who to escape investigation months back, had said he got the info from the same reporters that Rove is accused of telling.

Round and round she goes, where she stops nobody knows!

It will be interesting to see who is left without a chair when the music stops.

Great Albino BatKnallgold - you are joking, but might be closer to the truth than you imagine...#1340957/15/05; 10:57:58

Knallgold - you said, "tounge in cheek" that -

"Deep Impact found out that Temple1 is made of pure Gold"

Not impossible, it seems to me. Let us say, "within the realm of the possible."

I have long conjectured that the center of the Earth contains the heaviest metals: we are told that the core fo Earth is of iron, but, why not various layers of molten metals, with the heaviest at the center - Platinum, perhaps?

If the comets are remains of former planets, there might be a lot of heavy metal in them...


VoyagerGAB#1340967/15/05; 11:39:53

Recently there was a two-hour show, Journey To The Center Of Earth, on the Science Channel. It compared Jules Verne's science fiction story to our current knowledge of what is under our feet.

The center of the earth according to the show, is solid, mostly iron, and is approximately 4000 miles from the surface.

The really interesting thing is, they estimated that there is enough gold to cover the entire land mass of the earth knee deep!!

TownCrierVoyager, knee deep#1340977/15/05; 12:05:16

Just for fun, perhaps one of our industrious visitors having a few moments of spare time and who's handy with spheroid geometry could do a volumetric calculation of a 'knee deep' (0.6m) shell at the earth's surface (radius~6350 km) and compare that with the volume of the core (radius of 'inner' core ~1300 km, radius of 'outer' core ~3400 km).


VoyagerTC#1340987/15/05; 12:31:09

I sent to Justin, he is underground in a coal mine at the moment. Will see what he can come up over the weekend.

On the knee deep gold, I could not believe it and replayed that part twice to be sure thats what they said.

SurvivorBut What Is "Cash" . . . Really?#1340997/15/05; 12:51:03


Thanks for a thoughtful continuation of the subject. If I did not agree to some extent with the principles which underlie your position, I probably would not participate in this forum.

To be a goldbug in our current North American socio-economic culture, it is necessary to "live with one foot in each camp" however. No matter how much I would like to trade something of tangible value directly for the goods and services I require, the only currency acceptable to the corporate grocer, the utility company, and the taxman is some form of the currency that you have such distaste for.

Please note that I do not distinguish between greenbacks, checks, and the various forms of plastic. These are all means by which we are able to issue some of the credit that we hold in order to make a payment. (By "credit", I mean that the funny-money we hold is Credit to us by virtue of the fact that it represents Debt somewhere else.) We may perceive that the greenback is somehow more cash-like than checks or plastic, but in reality greenbacks are nothing more than another proxy for a debt balance that is tracked in an accounting system we know as "the bank".

It should be noted that the only thing which changed with the advent of digital transactions was increased communication velocity. The exact same process had been happening with paper transactions since long before the greenback was disconnected from gold.

But, back to living with a foot in both camps. The huge majority of what we receive as "income" comes to most of us as an electronic credit. Even after we exchange the electronic credit for "cash", we are still just holding a proxy for a debt elsewhere that has been electronically issued to us as a credit. Except for cash sewn into mattresses, all cash circulates continuously in and out of digital electronic form. We do get to exercise the other foot, however, by way of private transactions where both parties have the freedom to negotiate by barter or with precious metal. Another way is by exchanging digits for gold to hold as a store of wealth. And, of course, we plant that alternate foot by not owing anything to anyone.

So the bottom line is that since extricating oneself from the banking system would cut off both income and the ability to pay certain obligations, one foot must be kept within that system. Since all forms of transaction in that system are either paper/digital or a proxy for the same, those transactions all represent the same level of jeopardy to goldbugs (myself included). The best that can be done in this circumstance is to grab whatever advantages may be available there, and handle affairs in such a manner that the banksters never have a reason to exercise their many advantages which you documented so well. Perhaps someday there will be no taxes or utilities to pay, all food will be grown and bartered for locally, and the local doctor will accept a dozen eggs and some homemade bread for setting my broken middle finger. For now, that is not the case.

Lest my message be lost among the many words, the moral here is that transactions by greenback are just another form of doing business in the world of digital credit and debt.

Best wishes
- Survivor

MoegoldGold/platinum at center of the earth? @GAB#1341007/15/05; 14:03:46

"I have long conjectured that the center of the Earth contains the heaviest metals: we are told that the core fo Earth is of iron, but, why not various layers of molten metals, with the heaviest at the center - Platinum, perhaps?"

The effect of gravity on the surface of the earth might be very different than the effect of gravity at the center of the earth. At the surface, the mass of the earth is attracting the body at the surface, but at the center of the earth, the mass of the earth would apply forces equal in all directions (weightless?). Why would heavy metals "fall" to the center???

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1341017/15/05; 14:15:44">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Friday Market Excerpts

July 15 (from Reuters) -- U.S. gold futures finished a choppy session firmer and above fresh six-week lows on Friday, bolstered by speculative short covering before the weekend, dealers and analysts said.

The market bounced from a fund-led foray below $420 an ounce on Thursday and earlier on Friday after a lack of further selling prompted some investors to return to the market in late trade. Active COMEX August gold contracts climbed $1.10 to settle at $421.30 after earlier sinking as low as $418.20, which marked its weakest price since June 2.

Refco analyst Tom Boustead said, "Crude also was up a little bit, which helped to get people thinking about squaring positions ahead of the weekend."

Another analyst said the bottom for gold prices in the short term probably would be around Friday's low, because currencies were range-bound and high oil prices propped up gold as a hedge against inflation.

(from DowJones) -- Analysts at MKS Finance SA said thin liquidity and some squaring ahead of the weekend propelled the yellow metal higher but the return to an oversold state suggests that the liquidation might come to an end soon. "We believe any dip below $418 should be brief. In the near-term, $424 should, however, act as a strong resistance," MKS said.

-----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

TownCrierMoegold, center's gravity "might" be different#1341027/15/05; 14:32:24

The gold star goes to you. At the earth's center, the pull of gravity is indeed differnent that what we experience on the surface. In fact, at the center, the pull of gravity is precisely ZERO, with a nice gradient of increasing force on a body as it is positioned nearer to the maximum pull which we experience at the surface, and then as the body continues upward into space the force declines again toward zero, but this time doing so exponentially with an inverse of the distance between the center of masses of the earth and the body in question.

With zero g at the earth's center, one might think it could be a pleasant place to visit, but despite a zero pull of gravity, the pressure (and heat) which you would find there is horrendously inhospitable.

Thanks to electromagnetic and density calculations from geophysical studies, scientists have calculated that Earth's core consists of approximately 85 percent iron.

For what it's worth.


GoldendomeThis one may be heading to Crawdad, Texas.#1341037/15/05; 15:58:42

Track Emily here as she attempts to pin a tail on the donkey.
VoyagerTC Question#1341047/15/05; 16:46:38

Inner Core = 1.55x10^20 m^3
Surface = 3.04x10^14 m^3

Core is much much bigger.

TopazPoG ...PoS.#1341057/15/05; 16:47:19

Gold, now in full-blown Paper mode has returned to it's currency mean. Both alt-DX and EuroPoG are back in touch with "un-reality" here.
Enigmatic Ag keeps us guessing though. Yonder Castle haven't updated it's LR's since the 8th and Bullion Desk (see Link) indicate some serious whipsawing.
We're still short 1500 Contracts on Comex (est) so the Silver Delivery Issue, although apparent benign in here, could get VERY interesting in the Day's and Weeks ahead.

We Watch!

Great Albino BatInteresting question, MOEGOLD! Why indeed, would gold fall to the center of the Earth?#1341067/15/05; 17:38:48

Funny that my little post elicited (lovely word, that!) some comments.

We-e-e-l-l I have thought about that, too. Not being a physicist, I can only guess.

How about this guess: when the Earth was formed, the first particles that attracted each other into a mass, were those elements that had MORE MASS. Sound good? That means the heavier elements coallesced (another lovely word)or gathered together, first, then attracting, by their larger mass, the lighter elements. "Und so weiter..." And so forth.

How about this reason for "no comment" from the guys who have the data on the Comet collision "Tempe 1" -

Suppose they found out it WAS solid gold. "Hey! We need permission from above to talk about GOLD in a Comet, who knows, this is free publicity and we know that gold is out, gotta check this out first....mum's the word!"

Nah! Couldn't be! Just goes to show how NUTS goldbugs can be.


Great Albino BatTowncrier - it's the CABAL, I tell you!#1341077/15/05; 17:46:29

"Scientists say geophysical studies show that the Earth's core is 85% iron."

I say, they're part of the CABAL. They just don't want to admit that gold and platinum are at the very core.

Politically incorrect, you know. On second thought, the remaining 15% in gold and platinum ain't all bad, either.


TownCrierVoyager, send thanks to Justin#1341087/15/05; 19:48:15

Taking his calculations, and trusting that I didn't drop a decimal here or there, and further assuming the 'knee deep' statement to be valid, of the various material in the core, gold would represent only TWO ten-thousanths of a percent of the total material found there.

That is quite rare any way you slice it, but relatively speaking would be far more abundant than the greater scarcity with which gold is found in the earth's crust -- at a rate of approximately 0.005 parts per million, or FIVE ten-millionths of a percent of the total material in the crust.

Happy is he who has a collection of that rarest of portable property!


GoldiloxFrom Pinches and Paradox to Bear Raids and Goldilocks - Rob Kirby#1341097/15/05; 20:35:32


So there you have it folks, aging computers being blamed for PPI not being reported in a timely fashion on numerous occasions throughout '04 and apparently the fix for the problem rested in the procurement of new penpad computers for the folks who tabulate CPI?

What I see occurring here right before our eyes amounts to brazen ‘economic revisionism’ or the reworking of benchmark yardsticks of historic value. I would suggest that economic revisionism has been elevated to a ‘high art form’ at the Fed, Treasury and the BLS. These people practice their craft ever so incrementally and with cunning – beginning with seasonal adjustments to reporting numbers, then factoring in substitution, hedonic and quality adjustments and finally – once all the lines delineating reality are sufficiently blurred – they simply move the uprights back 25 yards whilst telling the blindfolded place kicker he has a simple ’chip shot’ from the 20-yard line.

None of this happens by accident. I would contend this is all part and parcel of a decaying fiat monetary system whose perpetuation mandates usurping inflation by its very definition. There is no conundrum on interest rates. Long term interest rates have been engineered down and remain low to induce credit expansion and consumption expenditure – period. Without it, the fiat system dies. Couple unnaturally cheap credit with a globalist mentality and you end up with exactly what we have achieved – zero savings and investment, plenty of outsourcing, dislocations and asset bubbles, a hollowed out manufacturing base and debt burdened and compromised middle class. In recent weeks, such luminaries as Warren Buffett, Robert Rubin, Paul Volcker and Stephen Roach have all – to varying degrees – fired warning shots humming a similar tune.

Interest rates, inflation and the price of gold are co-related and interdependent. This is why I write about gold and the suppression of its price. A rising gold price would make a mockery of nascent claims that inflation is low. It would also expose many of these false claims as deceptions. Unfortunately and shamefully, monetary officials prefer to conduct their carnie act, violating all of us, cloaked in double speak and secrecy behind drawn curtains.

This ‘creeping repositioning’ of the CPI [outlined above] relative to the PPI has the same aroma as the recent recalibration of the CRB Index. What I do know for a fact is the BLS has been pumping out reports for a number of years suggesting inflation is tame or non existent. Empirically, I used to fill the gas tank of my car for less than 40 bucks two years ago and today it costs a cool 50. And I live in Canada – a country whose currency has risen appreciably against the U.S. dollar – oil's settlement currency. I don't really want to go off on a rant about the increased cost of food, insurance, tuition, cable tv, property tax, new homes, professional fees, prescription drugs and anything else associated with health care. Amazingly, the bulk of pundits and monetary officials getting airplay in the main stream media insist we're living in a ‘Goldilocks’ economy.

PRITCHOFrom Richard Russell - - - -#1341107/15/05; 21:39:42

"For the week ended July 4, M-3, the broad US money supply, declined by $13 billion.
That ends the news. No, wait, there's more -- core inflation (food and energy) rose just 0.1% last month. The government's inflation statistics have become the laughing stock of the economic world, not that anyone gives a damn
about the government's statistics anymore."

Further Snip:

I just received the latest report (advisory) from my old pal, Sir Harry Schultz. I've known Harry for almost half a century. I first met Harry in 1961 just before he started his famous international advisory service. In those days Harry owned a number of newspapers here in California. Harry moved overseas to Monaco, and he's stayed overseas ever since. He's probably the world's most persistent traveler. Harry has lived in more countries than I even knew existed.

His international living and traveling has given Harry a unique overview of what's going on in the world. In his latest report, Harry gives his view of the global picture. He talks about "Separatization" (his new word) for what's going on. He means that instead of "one world" under one government, nations are now separating, and Harry is all for it. Below are some of Harry's comments about various nations. I can't say I disagree with anything Harry says below. Go Harry --

"Eastern Asia, China and the Indian sub-continent, which has taken over the leadership locomotive role. They want to trade (and raid) but definitely do not want to become part of the West. They want to be separate but equal (or equal plus for China). They're delighted with their new-found and growing power.

"The US has lost thrust (due largely to Asia powering) and lost moral leadership (due to the coup d'etat by the misguided policies of the neocons). If the neocons remain in power until 2009, they'll have destroyed so much of US economic, monetary and military power and influence it is unclear if it can be regained A.D. (after Bush). US political policies have separated the US from the rest of the world.

"Europe's case is even more extreme. They're unsure if they want to reform their socialism. They're at home with their termites, but the structure can't survive trade winds. Europe harbors a doomed economic and social philosophy. If they agree to reform, it'll take years, and maybe they don't have years (China). If they don't agree they'll become a white-collar second-world, no longer first, but not quite third.

"Black Africa, long a basket case economically, then politically (ego), now medically. Mostly refuses to help itself. Too busy arranging graft, corruption and channeling foreign aid into leaders' pockets. Still sees itself in black (them) and white (us) terms. Most are disgusting racists, especially the leaders. They would rather die than play by proven, humane rules.

"Brown (Arab) Africa: Also suffeouths from Colonial Blame Syndrome, but a few are less extreme. They let their Muslim religion separate them from the rest of the world.

"South America. Split. Non-cohesive. Who says that's bad? Separatization comes naturally here. That aside, the continent has some very pink spots (Venezuela, Cuba) and some bad behavior (cutting rain forests). Is largely anti-US, as a result of old wounds from the fruit companies and ongoing mega-bank treatment (lend and then repossess, and terrible IMF advice (what do they know? Not enough, another bureaucracy). But becoming a leading agricultural super-power. Hope South America doesn't find that China owns them one day.

"OZ and NZ (Australia and New Zealand). Happy to be left alone and separate. These two even avoid union with each other, have said yes/no, and maybe, but NO in the end.

"Canada -- Many wish their US border was a 50-foot Berlin wall. They're anti-Bush-wars (and made it clear). They separated themselves, one by one, from the US 250 years ago.

"Russia wants to trade with the West a bit, but mainly sees the West as a place to sell to (oil, gas, weapons). They still want to rebuild their military empire. Putin wants continued separatism.

"Middle East -- They create their own separatism -- in their heads. If they could open their minds/hearts, they could thrive and conquer violence. Until they do, they'll fool themselves that their separation is demanded by their religion, rather than by free choice.

"Japan/South Korea. A separate world of their own free choice. No desire to change."

White HillsRove#1341117/15/05; 21:55:03

Sir Goldilox: To get right to the heart of the matter, it would seem that there indeed has been no violation of the law. In the first place, Wilson's wife is NOT an Undercover CIA operative. She has a desk job in the CIA as an analyst. Her status in the CIA does not bring her under any criminal law or ethical practice as defined in this matter as has been publicly confirmed today by her superior…he also confirmed that Rove's statement did not endanger her, any other CIA employees or operatives.

Here is what is purported to have happened as reported by the journalist involved. In an interview on an entirely different subject, the reporter ended the session by asking Rove questions about Joe Wilson and his claim that he was sent to Niger by the administration and Dick Cheney to investigate the BRITISH INTELLIGENCE SERVICE report that Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium in Niger, as mentioned in the State of the Union Speech by President George Bush. Rove, in an effort to steer the reporter away from the false reports, told him that Joe Wilson was lying and that no member of the administration had sent him and that he believed he had been recommended for the job by his wife whom he thought worked for the CIA. It would seem that this decision to send Wilson was from a mid-level CIA officer for whom Wilson's wife worked and even the head of the CIA did not know about the mission. They have written proof of her recommendation of her husband so there is no doubt there. Incidentally, as reported, Joe Wilson not only lied in his report but also to the Senate Intelligence Committee investigating the report. He has been totally discredited even in the liberal media. Read Safire in the New York Times. By the way, the Brits stand by their report and indeed new information confirms the report. It would seem that the republican administration rushed to disavow the 18 or so minutes from the State of the Union speech because of the torrent of criticism by you lefties. But, they were premature because as it turns out, Saddam was trying to buy yellow cake uranium in Niger and the only lying was by Joe Wilson. I will let the readers of this post figure out why. So, there was no violation of law or ethics involved in the affair by Rove. The grand jury is not targeting him and he has already testified a couple of times as well as giving the special prosecutor complete cooperation. He has given all the reporters involved both general and specific waivers to reveal their sources. Therefore, why is the woman reporter in jail on contempt charges? That is a mystery yet to be revealed. I am sure that we will discuss this again and as the truth comes out it will be interesting to see how you can justify anything that you have said. By the way, I would be interested as to what acts this administration has committed that have been defined by law as "treason" to further their cause of "war under false pretenses" (a favorite liberal accusation) as represented by you in this forum. Trite, oft repeated statements like that show your bias. With Respect, White Hills

Goldilox"Core Inflation numbers"#1341127/15/05; 21:56:15

@ Pritcho,

Russell's opinion of the BLS numbers mirrors that spoken by Marc Faber.

Should be called "Rotten to the Core Inflation numbers".

HOOSIER GOLDBUGROVE#1341137/15/05; 22:24:14

THANK YOU, WHITE HILLS for setting the story straight!
Another liberal, left attack against this administration, which exposes the liberal left for what they really are made of. No solutions for AMERICA, just verbal garbage being spouted by a vicious bunch of antagonists.
What about HARRY REID on the senate floor, in the BOLTON confirmation hearings, talking about a FBI report filled with juicy tidbits about BOLTON which are classified and which most people did/do not have access to????? What about JOHN KERRY in the BOLTON confirmation hearings leaking the name of a CIA operative that Mr. Bolton had issues with during his tenure, some SMITH guy????????????? Good thing JOE WILSON had Chuck Schummer as his handler at the press conference this week! Made his lies more credible to the liberal left??????????? Liberal, left DEMOCRATS are no match for KARL ROVE. They are not even in his league! Sadam would have gotten that yellow cake from NIGER, but they probably wouldn't take anything but GOLD for payment.

exponentialcredit#1341147/15/05; 22:32:45

The word "credit" is derived from the Latin "credo," which means I believe or I trust. If you believe someone is acting in good faith, and you trust them to conduct their affairs responsibly, then you give them credit. In some societies trust is the norm, and most people give each other credit. This is a good thing. When I was growing up in West Texas, oilmen made multi-million dollar deals with a handshake. That's how it's supposed to work.

In some societies, credit is not possible. In Russia, for example, people pay in cash, because they don't trust each other (and rightly so).

Like everyone here, I think there is something fundamentally wrong with our present financial system, but credit per se is not the root of the problem. The fact that debt is now *impersonal* may be a problem, but not credit itself.

GoldiloxRove "data"?#1341157/15/05; 23:20:10

@ White Hills,

Again you NEGLECT to link any sources for your information. This is getting habitual - not exactly conducive to "credibility."

So far, you're the ONLY source I've heard say Ms. Plame was just a desk clerk - against hundreds of sources who dispute it. I would not take your opinion (or anyone else's) as gospel without verification anyway, but as you resort to name-calling, your credibility is waning even more rapidly.

The "white cake" documents and the Downing St memos have been demonstrated to be complete fabrications over and over again.

Gotta go. A family emergency requires my attention for the next dew days.


The Invisible HandGulf 'euro' pegged to dollar, not to euro#1341167/16/05; 01:14:48,,16849-1695974,00.html

Prince sees dollar peg as key to a Gulf 'euro'
The increased attractiveness of a stronger euro to Arab states was underlined yesterday as the UAE said that it might convert 5 per cent of its foreign currency holdings from dollars into euros.
But Prince Alwaleed bin Talal, the billionaire Saudi investor, cast doubt yesterday over a change in the states’ existing dollar peg. "Denominating in US dollars is the best scenario. The US economy has proven beyond doubt that it is the locomotive for growth of world economies," he said.

The Invisible HandFrom yesterday's FT #1341177/16/05; 03:46:29

But long-term investors – pension funds, insurance companies and central banks, for instance – have to take greater account of risk factors such as a possible break-up of the eurozone than do shorter-term investors like hedge funds and day traders. Such long-term considerations could influence decisions by Asian central banks or Opec members about whether they switch out of the dollar and into the euro.

The Invisible HandBahrain Tribune - Bastille Day 2005#1341187/16/05; 03:52:29

UAE considers switch to euro
Dbai: The United Arab Emirates central bank is mulling plans to convert some five per cent of its dollar reserves to euros, a move which would signal a far-reaching trend among Gulf Arab states seeking to reduce their reliance on dollars, a report llow suit, is also in line with an increasing global trend among central banks to shift reserves away from the US and towards the eurozone, analysts say.

masCould it be? They (Al Qaeda) state they are in control of Bagdad#1341197/16/05; 07:21:15

Three British soldiers have been killed in a roadside bomb attack in Amara in southeastern Iraq.

Two other soldiers suffered minor injuries.

The death toll among British forces now stands at 92, including 53 killed in action.

In Baghdad meanwhile, a car bomb exploded near a US convoy in the al-Ameen neighbourhood on Saturday morning.

It killed a suicide bomber and injured two people passing by. The violence follows the worst day in Baghdad since the end of April.

There were ten suicide car bomb attacks in the Iraqi capital on Friday - at least 28 people were killed and more than 100 were wounded.

Al Qaeda's Iraq wing - led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - said the attacks had given it control of the city.

In Kirkuk in the north, late on Friday, a car packed with explosives detonated prematurely killing the two men in the vehicle and a passerby.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A wide world of gold at your fingertips...#1341207/16/05; 09:59:33">gold -- a global calling card
968The Euro-Arab Economic Dialogue.#1341217/16/05; 10:16:52

Keynote speech by Dr Hans Georg Fabritius, a Member of the Board of the Deutsche Bundesbank, at the International Arab Banking Summit 2005 - "The Euro-Arab Economic Dialogue", Frankfurt/Main, 23 June 2005.

"Over the course of time trade relations between Europe and the Arab World have clearly intensified. For instance, German exports to the region increased by more than 10% last year. Although this is broadly in line with overall export growth in Germany, the strong increase occurred against broadly unfavourable exchange rate developments, given that the currencies of most Arab countries move in parallel with the US dollar.
Like trade in general, these developments have been to the benefit of both regions. A telling story of these mutual advantages is the fact that for Europe in general, and for Germany in particular, the dampening effects of the recent oil price shocks have been eased by a faster recycling of oil revenues in the oil producing countries.
This was made possible by increased foreign demand for European products in Arab countries. As imports from Europe play a much more important role for oil producing countries than imports from the United States, an oil price increase under unchanged trade structures leads to a demand shift in favour of Europe. To a certain degree, this is cushioning the adverse energy price effect."

"But one thing is crystal clear. The visible tensions about the European constitution and the financing of the European Union by no means hamper the proper functioning of EMU. It is becoming more and more necessary to re-emphasise this point since some observers have argued to the contrary and doubted the sustainability of the current institutional framework for common monetary policy."

"Moreover, the functioning of EMU is clearly visible in the growing international role of the euro. The euro's role as a reserve and invoicing currency and its relevance as an issuing currency on the international bond market is confirming this judgment. It is important to emphasise that the internationalisation of the euro reflects a market driven process and is no goal of the common monetary policy. Thus, the acceptance of the euro in international markets is even more reassuring."

"Despite these overall achievements, some have recently cast their doubts on the future of monetary integration in Europe in the face of heterogeneous developments at the level of member states.
And here I can only repeat myself. This line of argument neglects the basic empirical facts. The divergence in national inflation rates and output growth rates has not increased with EMU. Nominal convergence has not lead to real divergence and the heterogeneity within EMU is by no means significantly larger than in a well-established monetary union, ie the United States."
A nice read.

mikalNWO#1341227/16/05; 13:58:31

China, Russia issue joint statement on new world order - Xinhua - July 15, 2005
mikalEuro stylings attract interest#1341237/16/05; 14:05:24,,16849-1695974,00.html,,16849-1695974,00.html Prince sees dollar peg as key to a Gulf 'euro' - Economics - Times Online - July 16, 2005
mikalChina steps up ties with Russia and UN#1341247/16/05; 14:17:09

China tilts to Russia to counter Uncle Sam
Taipai Times - July 14, 2005

Dollar Bill.,.#1341257/16/05; 18:57:29

Mikal, interesting nwo link.
I didnt like the idea of the un providing the grounding for law. Unless the church state issue is finally drawn right and accepted by all.

KnallgoldKnee deep Gold?#1341267/17/05; 09:25:05

The whole Gold mined,melted in a cube,would just fit between the space between the Eiffeltower legs I heard.There might be more more Gold "deep storage" (2/3's already mined?),but knee deep covering the earth?Surely it could cover the earth,Gold can be stretched out very far (like the paperGoldgame...).
"Goldfoiled earth",I bet it would not last long as there is this human habit to collect this barbaric relict in whatever form.

mikal@Knallgold#1341277/17/05; 10:32:04

Well said. I believe the "knee deep" reference
pertained to gold in the ground(unmined) + above ground(mined). All the mined gold could be stored in
a large modern living room(with vaulted ceiling?) I have heard. Of course unmined gold could be expected to be found
in trace amounts nearly EVERYWHERE, as it is
a constituent of the human body and other life forms,
sea water, rocks, soil, ice, magma, etc.

mikalOil price forecasts said to have slippery foundation#1341287/17/05; 10:34:09 BBC NEWS | Business | How much oil do we really have? - July 15, 2005
mikalGold COT structure at historic extremes#1341297/17/05; 10:49:29 This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. Subject: [GATA] 'Midas' commentary for July 15 posted in the clear at Gold-Eagle
Sunday, July 17, 2005
Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:
GATA Chairman Bill Murphy's "Midas" commentary
at for Friday, July 15, has
been posted in the clear at Gold-Eagle here:
CHRIS POWELL, Secretary/Treasurer
Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee Inc.
To subscribe to GATA's dispatches, send an e-mail to:
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

TownCrierKnallgold, mikal; 'knee deep'#1341307/17/05; 11:40:59

The recent discussion of a knee deep shell of gold germinated specifically in regard to an outside estimation of the amount of unrecoverable atoms of gold possibly located within the earth's inaccessible core. Being unminable, you have no need to worry about it ever seeing the light of day.


exponentialoil#1341317/17/05; 12:06:35

Andy Xie has been saying the price of oil could crash soon. Here are excerpts from his latest dispatch (last week):

"Asian economies are decelerating. China has just begun to decelerate. At some point, the oil market will abandon the fiction of endless Asian or Chinese demand. As we have learned from the past bubbles, when the expectation turns, oil prices are likely to collapse.

"Asian oil demand continues to decline. China reported that its crude imports dropped by 1.3% and refined products by 21% in June from last year. For the first half of 2005, China's crude imports rose by 3.9% compared to a 34.8% increase in 2004, and refined product imports dropped by 21.1% compared to a 34.1% increase in 2004. In contrast, China's coal imports rose by 58% in the first half of 2005.

"Oil is a speculative bubble. I have never seen people buying something on what I believe is so much misinformation. While oil traders debate if China's demand is growing at 5% or 8%, their demand could be equal to half of China's.

"Oil bubbles do not last, because they depress economies and, hence, demand. Other bubbles (e.g., technology or property) tend to increase demand initially. This is why I believe that the days for the oil bubble are numbered. As the weak economic and oil demand data pour in from Asia, some speculators could run, which could, in my view, trigger a stampede."

GoldendomeWill inflation or deflation bring about higher gold prices?#1341327/17/05; 16:01:53

Could deflation bring about higher gold prices than could higher inflation?

I formerly thought, "No way!" Now as we view the continued control of gold and silver in the futures market, I'm beginning to wonder and reassess.

With continuing and even increased monetary inflation in the presence of controlled government statistics on CPI, etc. --more fiat money just gives more ability to those shorting the metals markets. Those, who are given easy access to the created dollars and profit from controlling the metals. In fact, the higher the monetary inflation, the more dollars they have available to sell paper gold in what seems endless volume! In addition, nearly all asset classes appear to benefit and rise in value during--at least--a mild inflation fever, making the sterile asset (gold) appear unattractive. Apparently, there could be no end to this game, with so many governments and vested interests involved, helping one another along the road of inflation [they're all involved]. And, since all governments round the world take part and profit from the paper games, all are likely (IMO) to continue playing the game of easy government money creation, with gold being held in check to make paper continue to appear competitive even against the back drop of terrible monetary inflation. I don't see anyone-or nation-rocking that boat.

Now, let's look at the alternative...deflation. Here, of course, we are talking about the destruction of paper money and the credits it creates. Since many will not know which assets will be safe and which may go to zero, gold and silver might benefit from both the need (by the metals market controllers) to re-deploy their assets elsewhere to prop up other potential asset failures, and the alternative safe-haven, U.S. Bond, yield dropping to about zero. Some money pouring out of faltering asset classes looking for a safe-haven will stick to failure proof gold and silver. With paper credits disappearing and short interest possibly distracted, could this possibly be the time that even a modest rush to the safe-havens would spark a significant price surge in gold and silver?

The uncertainty created by total and catastrophic credit destruction brought about by a significant deflation, might do more in a short time for the price of gold than the monetary inflation that is now in part used to control gold through the futures market selling.

TheJuniorMinerExponential/ Oil#1341337/17/05; 19:58:34

I would like to add two more of Mr. Xie's comments and then add some of my own.

"Developing Asia consumes 17.3 million barrels per day."
Thailand is 3.3 times as dependent on oil as the US, Korea 1.8 times, and Taiwan 1.6 times."

As I read Mr. Xie's articles it reminded me of someone that is too deep in shorts and needs justification and support.

I would say his analysis on Thailand, Korea and Taiwan's consumption could be off as much on the positive side as negative. Who really knows when they actually purchase oil and what hedges they use? He could be using June average prices for January purchases. As for China's demand, I have observed in base metals that they tend to buy in large quantities and then run down inventory. I suspect they do the same with oil. The fact that they are building new coal fired plants does not detract from their need for oil fired electricity as China still has some shortage problems in power generation.

As an aside to Asia's oil demand, Indonesia is in an oil shortage situation and they are an OPEC member. If they could get more dollars, they would use more oil.

I really like the reference to oil speculation being half of China's demand. As far as I can tell silver speculation is half the worlds demand. Doesn't seem to bother the users of silver. And I have no doubt that the speculative demand for copper is greater than the LME, Shanghi, and COMEX warehoused combined. Funny how it's only a problem with oil?

It appears that America's gasoline demand alone is higher than half the Asia developing world consumption of oil so how can we be so much more efficient in its use? Americans are the biggest wasters on this planet and our SUVS consume way more than their mopeds and motorcycles.

Rising prices for oil have been different for many parts of the world. Those not tied to the $ haven't seen nearly the % rise as those that are. This may be one of the final straws that breaks many currencies away from the dollar.

It is possible Asia's incredible growth in demand will slow but I find it unlikely it will reverse much unless the US can get is insatiable appetite for Asian goods out of its system I also point out he sure was flippant about rising production. As I see it, production is the real problem in the oil equation.


Dollar Bill.,.#1341347/17/05; 20:05:06

Exponential, I suspect the rise in oil prices was orchestrated to depress the world economy use of oil so that oil supplies are not super tight when israel attacks iran in (my guess) september.
With the nwo link provided by Mikal, China and Russia were making some pretty significant comments.
While rush limbaugh is thinking the -chicoms- the chinese govt, is all just godless commies, I hardly think so.
I think they know they are too huge to go to a system like ours, and suspect, that the leaders of China are among the growing christian population. Not all the govt, but the top guys.
I have been researching the jihad genesis. It appears to be a reaction. Not the first cause. The first cause appears to be israels govt structure of church and state.
Most middle east troubles grew from that.
Depending on your definition, fundamentalist can mean those that think church and state are destined to be some form of -one-.
To unravel the -terrorist- problem, can only be done by unraveling the confusion by finding the proper clarity about what constitutes the proper church state relationship.
It must be compelling enough to convince all the various parties that it is superiour to the problem causeing structures we now have.
Rush limbaugh has declared war on the public square with his club gitmo products. I think it would be best if he discovers there is a boundry to free speech.
If there is such a thing as freedom of religion, it must include a few new boundries. Boundries that protect it.
Although some will view it as limiting it.

SundeckChina Stakes Claim for Global Oil Access#1341357/17/05; 20:26:28,1,4300137.story?track=mostemailedlink&coll=la-home-local&ctrack=1&cset=true


Seeking oil abroad

China's growing demand for oil has led it to look overseas for new supplies. A sample:


- Canada: Granted access to oil sands in Alberta, considered the richest reserves outside Saudi Arabia; has 17% stake in Calgary firm with proprietary oil sands technology.

- El Segundo: CNOOC Ltd. made an unsolicited $18.5-billion bid for Unocal Corp.

Indian Ocean

- Nigeria: New railways funded by China.

- Gabon: China paying for port project.

- Angola: China's second-largest supplier is among the African nations benefiting financially in return for oil. Projects include electricity for Angolan slums.

- Russia: In talks for a 1,500-mile, $2.5-billion pipeline to supply 700 million tons of Russian crude over 25 years.

- Sudan: Its largest oil investor is China, which holds a 41% stake in a major Sudanese oil consortium.

- Kazakhstan: A $2.5-billion pipeline to western China is due for completion this year; it will be capable of transporting 20 million tons of oil annually.

- Iran: Chinese companies spent $70 billion for a majority stake in the nation's largest onshore oil field. China has also promoted relations by selling weapons to Iran.

- Saudi Arabia: China's largest oil supplier has a consulate in Hong Kong and a Beijing office for its state oil company.

- Rwanda: Road projects funded by China.

- Myanmar: Officials negotiating to build oil and natural gas pipelines from northern Myanmar to southwestern China.

- Strait of Malacca: The pirate-infested bottleneck off Malaysia through which more than 60% of China's oil imports flow.

- Spratly Islands: China called this month for joint exploration in the disputed islands near the Philippines.

- Philippines: State oil companies reached a deal in 2004 to research oil in the South China Sea.

- Indonesia: Third-largest oil and gas producer is also China's largest offshore oil producer. Will provide liquefied natural gas to fill a new terminal in Guangdong province.

Sundeck: A fairly long summary of China's ongoing search for energy security from the LA Times. China's footprint on world affairs is getting larger by the day...


TownCrierexponential, Andy Xie's "oil bubble"#1341367/17/05; 20:55:15

From your report, Andy used as part of his supporting commentary, "This is just another speculative bubble on the credulity of the participants and the availability of cheap money," and shortly thereafter concluding, "Oil bubbles do not last, because they depress economies and, hence, demand."

How does he so quickly forget the essence of his earlier comment -- "the availability of cheap money"?

In the tug-o-war for pricing influence which occurs between demands within the real economy on one side and the more relatively superficial invoicing on the other.

Does Xie expect that something as easy to create as 'money' is suddenly going to become less available or less cheap? How can he be so sure that what he chooses to see as a soon-to-burst oil 'bubble' isn't actually, in all greater likelihood, a reflection of pricing long askew now coming into an improved real economic balance?


White HillsJihad Genesis#1341377/17/05; 22:18:57

Dollar Bill, You Said: I have been researching the Jihad Genesis. It appears to be a reaction. Not the first cause. The first cause appears to be Israels govt. structure of church and state. Most middle east troubles grew from that.
White Hills said: A little history for you to think about: Year 691-Dome of the Rock erected in Jerusalem-Year 715-Great Mosque erected in Damascus-Year 732-Battle of Tours checks Islam's advance across Europe-Years 1095to1291-Crusades define bitter relations and struggle between Christianity and Islam for future centuries-Year 1453- Ottoman Turks conquer Bysantine Empire-Year 1492- Roman Catholic Christianity enforced once more in Spain-Years 1914-1918- Ottoman rulers make a fatal miscalculation in joining the Empires fortunes with those of Kaiser Wilhelm-
For all these centuries Islam's domination even in Europe has been impressive.Arabs, Moors, and or Ottomans controlled Spain for 800 years, Portugal for 600 years, Greece and Bulgaria for 5 hundred years, Romania and Serbia for 400 years, Sicily for 300 years, and Hungary for 150 years. Italy,Austria,Bosnia,Croatia,Wallachia,Albania, Moldavia,Armenia,Georgia,Poland, The Ukraine, and eastern and southern Russia were all battlesfields where Islam conquered or was conquered in violent conflicts marked by cruely, bloodlust, a fearful loss of life. This violent spread of Islam was to bring Jihad to the infidels and pagans, that is everybody that does not accept
I think you can recognize some of the areas of conflict from recent times, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania, George to name a few. Jihad is the method that Islam uses to fight the infidels as they are directed to do in the Koran. A individual Muslin may not agree with Jihad but will not oppose it or even speak out against it. It is considered Allah's will and no sin would be as great as opposing Allahs word.It would be the duty of any Muslim to kill such a person. Incidently there is a Muslim hit list out with such people on it.
For the last 300 years the Islam has been on the defensive but recently 50 years or so have once again mustering their strenght to once again spread Islam with the Sword, called terriorism.
Israel is a democracy, the only one in the Middle east, and they are jews. That alone makes them the enemy of Islam. Islam will never stop until they are killed or run out of the middle east. Islam will never stop attacking the west using terrorism and all methods of war to defeat us. It is what their God tells them to do
Dollar Bill, Do you really think that all of this started with Israels govt. structure of church and state. Give us a break! White Hills

GoldendomeEmily approaches the Yucatan.#1341387/17/05; 23:34:49

Just heard a BBC radio news report that Pemex has evacuated ALL of their offshore oil platforms as hurricane Emily approaches the Yucatan and then is projected to continue in the Western Gulf of Mexico to the East coast of Mexico. The report indicated that 15,000 oil workers have been idled and as much as 3/4 of Mexico's oil output could be affected on a short term basis.

----Lock those gas caps.

SundeckGold liberalisation measures are key to India #1341397/17/05; 23:36:41


The minister had sought to allow free import of gold and had made an announcement in this regard with a caveat 'subject to regulatory approval’. And the regulator RBI made sure that it flexed its arms. RBI just poured cold water over the commerce minister's proposal.

Reasons were best known to the regulator. Repeated attempts by media to find out the grounds for such an approach went in vain. Now again there are talks of liberalizing gold. Hope this time around it doesn't turn out to be a damp squib. The new gold policy is expected in September is likely to address a variety of issues—ranging from setting up of special zones for gold trade to concerns relating to launching gold exchange traded funds.


Sundeck: More talk of "liberalising" India's gold...two edged sword...freeing up imports and exports could boost gold demand, but I don't like the sound of ETFs...

Incidentally, did you now that a "squib" is an explosive device, like a firecracker or a simple gunpowder primer? Hence, "damp squib" = something that does not go "bang!"

SundeckDisneyland goes 50 in style#1341407/17/05; 23:54:11


Disneyland marked its 50th anniversary Sunday with a ceremony that culminated with a fireworks-and-confetti display featuring Mickey Mouse and dozens of other characters brought to life by founder Walt Disney and thousands of Disney fans donning special gold colored Micky ears.

While just one dollar would have gotten you into the magic kingdom in 1955, the cheapest day ticket in 2005 will set visitors back 56 dollars.

Sundeck: Golden mouse ears may help to hear the dollar bills falling into the US's debt jar...

...but how about that? $1 entry in 1955 and $56 now!!!! Is one likely to have 56-times more fun now than in 1955? Perhaps that WAPPING 55-times inflation figure needs some "head-onic" adjustment...maybe that is what the golden ears represent?? Make it sound better than it is...


exponentialAndy Xie on oil#1341417/17/05; 23:59:02

The participants on the Morgan Stanley GEF have different personalities. At one end of the scale you have the imperturbable Richard Berner. At the other end you have the excitable Andy Xie. He is the one who is most likely to talk about hyperinflation and deflationary collapse. He is the closest thing to a gold bug on the Morgan Stanley site. He is the most fun to read, but if you want to be right about the markets it's usually better to listen to Dick Berner and Stephen Li Jen.

That said, Andy Xie does have his finger on the pulse of the Chinese economy. His thesis that POO may collapse is based on his perception that the boom in China is not going to last much longer. China has vast overcapacity, the speculative bubble in real estate is coming to an end, and the Chinese banking system is an accident waiting to happen. This is a perfect recipe for recession or worse. It's like that cartoon where the guy runs off the edge of a cliff and keeps running, until he looks down and realizes what he has done.

TownCrier - "Does Xie expect that something as easy to create as 'money' is suddenly going to become less available or less cheap?" No, it's not that money will be less available. It will be available, but it doesn't enter the economy until someone borrows it. Look at Japan: the banks have lots of money to lend, but not many takers. Andy Xie is saying that when the Chinese economy starts to contract in a serious way, that will happen in China too. There is no point borrowing money to invest in new projects, since China already has way too much capacity.

Junior Miner - "I really like the reference to oil speculation being half of China's demand. As far as I can tell silver speculation is half the worlds demand. Doesn't seem to bother the users of silver. And I have no doubt that the speculative demand for copper is greater than the LME, Shanghi, and COMEX warehoused combined. Funny how it's only a problem with oil?" - Who said it's only a problem with oil? The same thing would happen with any commodity. If speculators create their own demand, then when they stop buying, the price collapses. Andy Xie claims that real (industrial) demand for oil is about to decline, and when the speculators see this, they will stampede for the exit. If he is right, then the price of copper will also collapse.

What Mr. Xie isn't taking into account is that many speculators buy oil futures because they think there is going to be a bigger war in the Middle East. If that happens, POO will spike up regardless of what happens in China or anywhere else. As long as speculators are worried about that, they will continue to buy oil futures, even if industrial demand weakens.

TownCrierLatest von Braun in by e-mail... Unintended Consequences! Part 3#1341427/18/05; 03:43:18

Excerpts from the 'Rocket School of Economics':

July 17th, 2005 -- Productivity and Cashflow

Whatever happened to good old fashioned cashflow, cashflow derived from producing something which was sold at a profit? Today it is estimated that profits from the manufacturing sector account for 10% of corporate profits, while in excess of 50% comes from financial transactions or money shuffling. This is a complete reversal from the early 1950's when manufacturing accounted for 55% of corporate profits. Obviously productivity has declined over the last fifty years and the production of goods has been replaced by the 'click the ticket' brigade.

The manufacturing base that provided the bulk of US corporate profits has gone, having been moved offshore, first to Japan, now to China, two countries which today are effectively the largest creditors of the US. Productivity, the key to wealth, is now located in foreign lands, while money shuffling still appears to be centered in the US. Obviously when a country has the designated world's reserve currency, the US dollar, the source of this 'wealth' the ultimate paper gold mine, then it can dictate the terms and conditions to all players, especially as the currency in question has no redemptive value.

...Direct ownership of hard assets may well be the new vogue. Jeffrey Knight, of Putnam Investments ( was quoted in the Boston Herald, 7/14/05, ( as saying: "I think gold is a buy. I think it's a long term buy. Nobody wants a strong currency any more. It could happen that all 'fiat' (i.e. paper) currencies will try to compete lower. That undermines 'fiat' currencies as a store of value."

Wow, that's an interesting statement coming from a fund manager, when compared to the rah-rah that still appears on CNBC. Notice this gentleman is not saying buy real estate, he is saying that long term ownership of gold may be prudent. We could not agree more, having recommended buying gold at $280 back in 2001. Once again it is important to actually own what you purchase, and taking delivery of the metal completes the transaction.

For those that are fortunate enough to have exited paper assets and are sitting in cash (liquid debt,) transferring this into something that is not debt, but is tangible and can not be erased with a stroke of a pen, is wise. No debt, exposure to commodities, ownership of gold and if possible, direct and indirect exposure to commodity production, including gold, may well become the hallmark of financially surviving the next ten years.

^-----(see url to access full commentary and archives)-----^

Dollar Bill.,.#1341437/18/05; 07:05:07

White Hills, thank you for the added history. I also am adding history to the analysis, being early in the morning, I should have mentioned, as you did, that the -recent- emergence is the one you mention 50 years ago.
The recent one is the one that needs untangleing.
Imagine how hopeless thier cause if they were trying the old style jihad. Europeans for example, are not very interested in church once a week, bowing 5 times a day certainly is not a likely possibility.
There may be some of that old style jihad going on in Africa. Hard to really tell, religious fighting there could really be almost coincidental to the tribal fighting.

Dollar Bill.,.#1341447/18/05; 07:27:01,pubID.22848/pub_detail.asp

It is economics that led me to this topic.
There are those whose intent is to topple the economic game.
Granted we talk about the behaviours of the top money men whom we believe, for the most part, are acting in a way that is reckless and threatens collapse. Also, the very tool used by the economy, fiat, is usually faced with collapse by this point just by fiat design.
The source of the threat is of course us. But, rather than get all ticked at -terrorists-, I believe, like our finanacial discussions, it is structural.
The link, is to a voice on the -right-. not a voice in the wilderness, but one echoeing reasons that are moving us towards destruction of financial norms.
In history, and now, the same entangleing, collideing forces of church, money and state are threatening us all.
I think there is a structural solution.

Goldilox"Structural" solution and Israeli "history"#1341457/18/05; 08:17:24

@ Dollar Bill, et al,

Just a little addendum to the "history". The Israeli state is indeed a democracy, as their home elections are usually even closer races than those in the US. The forces for more expansionist Zionism and "peaceful" coexistance continue a strong political battleground in their elective process, though rarely mentioned in western media - it certainly is prominent in the Israeli media.

The less than radical Arab governments find the Israeli presence unacceptible not for its democracy, but for its "history", given that it was created by the more "terrorist" elements in the Zionist movement as an answer to Jewish resettlement. The majority of the immigrants to that state are refugees from WWII and cold war politics who were not even welcomed in their own home countries after the war fall of Nazism.

The Arabs find it appalling that the west supports a state created on Arab lands for jewish refuges that the same supporting countries would not allow back home after WWII.

Israel, to them, has becoime another of the west's "not in my back yard" issues, and they feel that the Jewish state was "dumped on them" as an answer to western Jewish resttlement issues.

Without choosing sides, this is the real basis for lack of any "common ground" in Middle East negotiations.

As to $ Bill's assertion about "solutions" to the financial mess, my main concern is that imposed solutions tend to be heavily biased toward those imposing them and bad for everyone else - not unlike the FED Reserve decision of 1913.

Dollar Bill.,#1341467/18/05; 09:38:43

Greetings Goldilox, It might have been a typo on my part, but I dont think I have a "solution" for any economic structural issue.
The Jewish Muslim issue was very different 70 years ago.
There were Jewish communities in all the so called Muslim countries.
The zionists, who really went after the dream of a Jewish state, made efforts to force the Jewish communities from those countries to help populate Israel.
Jewish people, the -bulk-, are like all of us -bulk- people, we are all dragged along by the activist/govt/religion guys to destinations and troubles that us -bulk- would never cause on our own as we live lives trying to keep our families safe from financial, and forms of tyrannical trouble.
I am driving off in a moment till saturday. Have a good week.
Here is a surprising link

GoldiloxStructural Solution#1341477/18/05; 09:50:11

@ S Bill,

I wasn't meaning to hang the solution on you personally, but you had mentioned a "structural solution", and I was referring to that.

I was adding some "history" not to simplify the issue in any way, but to remind everyone just how complex it really is. The media-simplified description ignores many of those complexities, though I am sure they are not lost on the diplomatic corps.

I am also out of town attending a family funeral, so my attention is rightfully divided.

Good will to you and yours, my friend.


CoBra(too)Panda Bears ...#1341487/18/05; 10:52:21

Not the one rescued today, but the real thing, which has (had?)some numismatic value.

In Europe gold numismatics hasn't really played a major role ever - as it bullion was bullion, in bars and coins, since we always could buy coins - not bars necessarily.

There is a lot of debate on Panda's on several friendly sites and I can only say that my former bank's numismatic outlet had been agents to the Chinese mint at the outset. Early 1980's i'd guess.

Anyway the first batch was only some 20Koz's for a series per year at spot plus a few bucks. I recall to have bought 3 series at the time and a year later they offered to buy back at 4 times the original price - still hold on to two sets.

Is it the power of gold alone or the power of supply/demand =scarcity and collecting value?


PS - Hello Goldie - great posts all over the place - thanks!

CoBra(too)Straying Pandas ...#1341497/18/05; 12:36:54

... and PM's not allowed to stray for a day ... cb2

TownCrierCoBra(too), premium pricing#1341507/18/05; 12:41:09

Where your tale illustrates the effect upon pricing/value based on the supply and demand market fundamentals of a 'scarce' gold ounce as contrasted with a more 'generic' gold ounce, it provides an additional insight for future expectations regarding the higher potential values awaiting a 'free gold' physical-based market (reflecting 'scarcity') as contrasted with the marketplace's present abundance of 'generic' paper gold.

To drive home the point, imagine if you had simply assigned your Panda gold coin sets to an unallocated account (where they would have become a paper statement of generic ounces) rather than maintaining a discrete ownership of that specific property as you actually did. Clearly, your ability to reap the higher value was contingent upon your ability to product the actual property in question upon your transaction with the buyer. Had your Panda ownership been watered down into the form of a quarterly paper statement of generic 'ounces', you would have only been able to reap the value per ounce that the market currently establishes as the par value for the swirling multitude of tonnes of generic paper gold per each papery ounce.

All to say, if the unallocated (generic) papery 'ounces' of gold are eliminated from the market's supply/demand pricing equation as would be the situation in a 'free gold' market, then suddenly the pricing on all tangible ounces would start to behave as illustrated by your Panda's -- with an impressive adjustment upward in recognized market value.

And certainly, even among the worldly 150k tonnes of scarce tangible ounces, some of those ounces will continue to be priced higher still due to their additional scarcity and special desirability (numismatic or otherwise) among their golden peers.

Food for thought and discussion.


USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.July Buyers' Group#1341517/18/05; 13:21:31

Attractive pricing and a wealth of info on United States $20 gold pieces -- Liberties and St. Gaudens.

See announcement at the Bulletin Board for more details.

TopazBond watch.#1341527/18/05; 14:33:16

It will be interesting to watch developments here Bonds took a hit in the arvo, DX/Au reacted accordingly. This doesn't bode well in the aftermarket as Foreigners ...major position holders, get a crack at disposal.

We'll see!

Numismatics ...dunno!
Can't REALLY imagine them "outperforming" Bullion in a Fiat washout. I think premiums would maintain their "current" $ amount but NOT their Ratio ie: Spot X3 @ $420 ($1260) may well become Spot + $840 @ $5000. IMHO.

I've still got a "Soft-Spot" for my '99 Euro Set though.

CoBra(too)Topaz & TC - Numismatics? #1341537/18/05; 14:52:24

Outperforming? - Don't believe it either as in the longer run an ounce is an ounce ...
Gata be in it to win it - as someone is hammering the point!

Go Gold and take delivery - to be safe - cb2

TownCrierTopaz and CB2, To clarify#1341547/18/05; 15:29:12

Please note I was not the one to utter the words or sentiment "outperform" -- as that is not what I was driving at. That issue specifically would be for the market to decide, and it certainly lays well outside of my limited scope of study and projection.

Ouside of my primary point about scarce physical gold value versus wimpy value of abundant paper gold, all that I was trying to convey in my simple final remark was very simply this, that at such time as when the dust settles, and I quote: "some of those ounces will continue to be priced higher". This was offered, almost as an afterthought, simply for the sake of framing a more complete picture at the end of the road.

Notions of "outperformance" have more to do with choosing one's entry point, and that's not where my thoughts were coming from. But in that regard, certainly anyone who got into $20 gold pieces at the time of circulation (at face value = bullion value = $20.67 per ounce) will always be sitting fat, and setting the ultimate benchmark for "outperformance" per se. Agreed?


USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1341557/18/05; 16:22:05">
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Monday Market Excerpts

July 18 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures closed with a modest loss Monday, but an analyst stressed that the U.S. dollar is likely to see further weakness, spurring investment demand for the precious metal.

COMEX August gold futures fell 30 cents to close at $421.

Gold prices lost ground in the past week "after the latest economic fictions on U.S. inflation were released and the U.S. trade deficit failed to deteriorate," said Ned Schmidt, editor of the Value View Gold Report.

"But the sellers could not control" the market, he added, and that "these markets -- gold and silver -- have a strong following of buyers that are not about to run."

"Gold investors know the fundamentals of the dollar are on their side," according to Schmidt.

"The bear market for the dollar [is] likely to resume."

In a research note Monday, John Reade, an analyst at UBS in London, said that any further weakness in gold "will present longer-term investors with good buying opportunity."

He predicts that gold will move higher over the next 18 months on "expected weakening" of the U.S. dollar.

Indeed, the dollar failed to gain ground Monday against major rivals after the Treasury Department reported that foreign capital inflows to the United States rebounded to $60 billion in May, the strongest showing since February's $79.6 billion.

CoBra(too)TC - "Outperform" - an ounce of gold is an ounce of gold!#1341577/18/05; 16:44:20

... Let me quote an old Wall Street friend, who's writing some great insights to some of his old friends and clients ...

*Although I remain a strong advocate of gold playing an important monetary role, it is unquestionably for the best that the collusion between the U.S. and probably other members of the G8 which aimed at abolishing gold's monetary role for all eternity, is never exposed. The future of democracy and the capitalist system is in grave danger at this time, and to heap even more disrepute on our political leadership would not in any way be helpful.

Too many pillars of our society have been severely damaged by scandal in our times. ... Another scandal of this magnitude ... would only serve to further undermine the underpinnings of civilization!" ---

Seems to me- it's past pretensions - the future of fiat currencies, floating vis a vis their intrinsic value vs the supreme fiat has run its course and is now only "sinking" in terms of relative purchasing power towards the standards of its competitors ... Or is it the other way around?!

Who cares; In reality the Post - some wanna dub it - Bretton Woods II - is just an unimagable crime, pulled off by an administration with no compucture for their own citizens. A socialist democratic Republic had more of a civic conscience than Washington, D.C. (See Cuba in the aftermath of Dennis' destructive path - Fidel says : F__ Off!)

Right or wrong - The 'Ugly American' is re-surfacing in its plight to prove its super power status. A status which has been undermined by its own actions - actions of imperialism - "occupying", or at least having military bases in 170 countries of the globe.

I'd guess the Empire is on its last legs as Iraq and Afghanistan proves to even undermine the notion of air- and sophisticated weapons power - the last vestige of super power - which may fall any day on the debt burden - called credit to "equal?" powers.

Great! Being the remaining global Superpower - being probably toppled by the sins which have toppled its cold and other war enemies.
... Some feel W-.D.C. is the ultimate enemy to world peace and prosperity ...

... Can't really oppose the notion ...

TownCrierGLOBAL MARKETS - U.S. stocks, dollar, gold, oil, bond prices lower#1341597/18/05; 16:56:40

NEW YORK, July 18 (Reuters) - U.S. stocks ended a seven-day rally to close lower on Monday after disappointing earnings from Citigroup. Oil prices, Treasury bond prices, gold and the dollar all declined.

The Dow Jones industrial average slipped 65.84 points...

Crude oil futures slumped on NYMEX as Hurricane Emily diminished as a threat to U.S. Gulf of Mexico production...

The dollar slipped across the board as a capital inflows report showed selling of U.S. stocks by foreigners in May, suggesting uneven interest in dollar-denominated assets...

U.S. Treasury bond prices fell on Monday as negative technicals were exacerbated by expectations of optimistic testimony to Congress this week from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan... The benchmark 10-year notes fell 12/32 for a yield of 4.22 percent -- its highest since early May...

U.S. gold futures finished a shade lower...

^----(from url)----^

That's quite a headline on this one... EVERYthing down.

No joy in Mudville today.


goldquestYeah, But#1341607/18/05; 17:12:06

GOLD is creeping back up! Gonna bust out and leave bonds, oil and the $, in a cloud of dust!
Max RabbitzCuba?#1341617/18/05; 18:54:06

CB2 stated "Who cares; In reality the Post - some wanna dub it - Bretton Woods II - is just an unimagable crime, pulled off by an administration with no compucture for their own citizens. A socialist democratic Republic had more of a civic conscience than Washington, D.C. (See Cuba in the aftermath of Dennis' destructive path - Fidel says : F__ Off!)"

Max...... I'm a little lost here....did I misunderstand something. Is Cuba a Democratic Republic? Well Socialist maybe, but not the kind that asks your opinion. I've always prefered republics over democracies but I don't think Cuba comes close to either.....and free aspirin for the masses doesn't put them there. I'm at least as cynical as anyone here with regard to manipulation of the masses for the good of the ruling elite. But I would think the severe and total lack of tolerance for diverse opinions and free choice would tend to rule Cuba out of either of these categories. Perhaps the American tradition of individual responsibilty is just a silly illusion destined for the dustbin of history. But if so then why save anything, especially gold coins? Let the government take care of in the socialist democratic republic of Cuba.

OvSCobra.#1341627/18/05; 20:26:08

"The Ugly American"?
"Imperial Occupier"?
"Global Superpower"?
"Washington, D. C.--
the ultimate enemy"

If you must, why don't you at least
pick on your home-grown agents of
this superpower?
Your political analysis is just a bit
too shallow; dig a little deeper, will
Or, at least, acknowledge the gutsiness
of this world domination scheme. Do you
really believe a peaceful integration of
the world is possible?
I can't be more specific nor personal
because then the USAgold administration
will abort me faster than an ounce of
fake gold...Edelweiss forever...OvS

PRITCHOThe Invisible Hand (of the US Government) in Financial Markets.#1341637/18/05; 20:32:27

In "Today's" Market Wrap Up at Financial Sense Rob Kirby draws attention to an article I'd missed --see above.It is indeed a "Must Read" and certainly explains the rise (temporary) in the US $. I've linked it -see above.

Snip - (From Kirby)

"I wanted to take a moment and revisit a wonderful essay written April 3, 2005 by Professor Robert Bell titled The Invisible Hand (of the US Government) in Financial Markets. In this essay, Bell outlines the significance of The American Jobs Creation Act signed into law on Oct. 22/04. In his paper, Bell explains that the law provides American companies with monies "off shore" to repatriate it for a one year period and have their effective tax rates on these repatriated funds lowered from 35% to 5.25%. He predicted that this would result in a substantial flow of homeward bound funds. He concluded as a result of his analysis, that bearish sentiment toward the U.S. dollar [particularly negative at the time] would not likely be manifested with the dollar making new lows. In fact, Bell was one of the only prognosticators that I remember reading who had a fundamentally credible thesis as to why the dollar would do better in spite of the burdening twin deficits – even if only temporarily."

White HillsCuba#1341647/18/05; 20:44:51

Sir Max Rabbitz, BRAVO!!!! White Hills
PRITCHOThin Skinned Replies (Max & Ovs) - -to CoBra(too)#1341657/18/05; 20:54:26

Sometimes the truth hurts -- and our friend CoBra only stated what he sees as the truth --especially as seen from outside of the USA.For what it's worth I agree with his sentiments.Many Americans also see what's happening and are reporting it - -Its just NOT getting played at home!

From the latest "The Privateer" -an American living in Oz)
"The United States executed a deliberate, purposeful bombing campaign against Saddam Hussein's Iraq
beginning in May 2002. These air operations had no basis in international law and constituted aggressive
acts. Nor did these air operations have ANY Congressional authorisation. President Bush initiated
hostilities a full TEN months before his administration determined that all diplomatic means had been
exhausted and six months before Congress had actually approved the use of force. By the Pentagon's own
admission, it carried out seventy-eight individual offensive air strikes against Iraq in 2002 alone. The US
official Iraq invasion began on March 19, 2003.
Right here are the VALID grounds in international law for the full reopening of the Nuremberg Articles
and the public trials of Mr Bush, Mr Blair and Mr Howard from Australia for waging aggressive war in
the same manner that the German leadership was charged after their defeat in 1945. US Lieutenant-
General Michael Mosely's own evidence is amply sufficient.
The UN and its articles was established after the Nuremberg trials. In the case of Iraq, there was NEVER
an authorisation to initiate a military attack. That would have taken an additional UN Resolution. The
Bush Administration never attempted to get such a resolution, knowing it would be vetoed."

This Is Where The US TURNS:
With no comparison attempted or intended, this is what President Bush has tried to do in his national
address to the US troops at Fort Bragg on June 28. Bush sank! He was repetitive. He looked distracted
and annoyed. He had NO new solutions on offer to his own invasion and military occupation of Iraq.

This was the one grand public address President Bush could not afford to blow. It was meant to change Americans’ perception of his war in the Middle East. He failed! A new political pivot has been hammered into the ground inside the United States. From now on, the President of the United States is staring at a catastrophic political failure which is rolling straight at him. The majority of Americans have begun to discover that they were LIED into a FALSE war.
The trailing effects and reports about the address made by President Bush on June 28 to the gathered US
troops at Fort Bragg has been remarkable. Even Mr Bush's adherents have been all but missing in action
up and down the US media. His critics were likewise floundering. They too had nothing really to "bite"
on. Both sides, adherents and critics alike, have gone through the motions. Understandably so. They had
already heard it all before.
Trailing further behind in the national debate (such as it was) about this speech by President Bush,
another issue has come to the fore. This was the near silence of the US troops gathered to hear the
speech. Even the New York Times reported on this event! This is notable in the extreme. On many past
occasions, President Bush has used US troops as a decorative backstop to his public appearances. His
speeches have always been to massive applause, foot stomping, and even loud yells. This time, there was
only silence. At the end of Mr Bush's speech, there was a very slow and polite clapping of hands, and
that was led by and mostly confined to the officers present.
The Signal - "We've Got Your Number":
As any mid-rank officer in just about any military force anywhere knows, this display of silence (that is
what is was) is deadly dangerous! It would have made cold shivers run up and down the spines of most
senior officers. It is the oldest "signal" known to fighting men. It is the signal the troops use to make
clear their contempt for their senior commanders - in this case their Commander In Chief.
We're On Our Own:
A "display of silence" happens when good troops finally realise that their own command is fake, that it is
all an act. The act is meant to impress, but there is no substance behind it. What the men in Caesar's
legions knew was the primal, crude, animalistic fact that Caesar was no faker. They all knew that if came
to the point, Caesar would, at the drop of a hat, fight any of them. And he'd likely win!
When the opposite is the case, good soldiers react the other way. They will not fight for fakers. They
will fight, often with naked ferocity, for themselves and for each other - simply to stay alive.

PRITCHO A More Global View -- -#1341667/18/05; 21:04:14

Again from "The Privateer" (Yes I do think it's good value)

One Step Backward - Two EU Options:

By having been forced this one step backwards, courtesy of the voters of France and Holland, the EU is in
the perfect political position to be a "broker" between the contending parties of Russia/China and the
USA. The EU is not a perfect broker, having an interest in getting the US out of the Iraqi oil fields itself,
but it is the best broker for the purposes of all three contenders - and all three know this.
Neither Russia nor China seems to mind this EU position. The Bush Administration is next to certain to
see it as a hidden and dark conspiracy directed against itself. That is a futile diplomatic position for the
US to choose. It will only leave President Bush entirely politically isolated, except for Mr Blair in his
role as a butler. If, by default, President Bush chooses to stand alone and therefore isolated, he will place
the EU in the geo-political position of not being responsible for any potential political outcome.

The Balance Player:

The most likely outcome of the G-8 Summit will be a full US global isolation. That outcome would give
the EU two options. The EU can diplomatically, geo-politically and geo-strategically stand aside. That
would give them the later free choice of supporting the US. Their second option would be to choose to
support Russia and China in a three-party move to lever the US out of the Middle East. If the US, at the
G-8 Summit, reluctantly agrees to leave the Middle East in stages, the world will not hear about any such
agreement for a long time. All the world will see is it happening, with all kinds of US distracting excuses
attached. But if the US does not enter into any such hidden agreement at the G-8 Summit, President Bush
has not only gambled the global peace. He has also gambled the entire nation which is the USA. The
world will certainly see THAT, because such a vast gamble by President Bush will require a full-scale US
air campaign directed at IRAN! If that happens, it will simply be Mr Bush risking a global war to sustain
and keep his gains in Iraq and the Middle East.
If a massive and sustained US air campaign directed at IRAN does happen, expect the EU to stand aside
entirely as a non-participant. Since the UK is already militarily engaged in Iraq, that will force Prime
Minister Blair into supporting the US attack upon Iran. That would mean that the UK, by that act, has left
the European Union. In the end, that leaves Europe to the Europeans, which was always the aim.

exponentialOr, at least, acknowledge the gutsiness of this world domination scheme.#1341677/18/05; 21:05:22


> I can't be more specific nor personal
> because then the USAgold administration
> will abort me faster than an ounce of
> fake gold...Edelweiss forever...OvS

Well, go for it. What are you driving at? Sounds interesting to me.

Try using the chutzpah principle: don't assume in advance that there are limits to what you can do, just keep pushing until the limits reveal themselves. If there are things that "can't be said," just go ahead and say those things, and see what happens.

Edelweiss forever, indeed.

timberline Tell Me More About Mechtilde von Lichnowsky#1341687/18/05; 21:33:54

Hello CoBra(too!

Some will find my request 'off topic' but I tried without posting to no avail.

On (02/07/02; 13:23:21MT in msg#: 69545 you quoted Mechtilde von Lichnowsky.

Can you tell me which of her books contains the verses you quoted (and others like them.) I've searched the Web high and low and your quotes here in this forum are one of a very few warm threads.

Thanks in advance,


exponentialTHE SILENCE OF THE TROOPS#1341697/18/05; 21:40:33


Wow. Thanks for that post. That's why I read the forum - there are things posted here that would not come to my attention otherwise. I had no idea the troops gave him the silent treatment.

> What the men in Caesar's legions knew was the
> primal, crude, animalistic fact that Caesar was no faker.
> They all knew that if it came to the point, Caesar would,
> at the drop of a hat, fight any of them. And he'd likely win!
> When the opposite is the case, good soldiers react
> the other way. They will not fight for fakers.

I grew up in Midland, Texas, and played on the same playground with George Bush in the first five grades. I can tell you for a fact that Georgie Porgie was not and is not a fighting man. Apparently the troops are finally catching on to who he is. The burning question is, what happens when they come home? When a hundred thousand Iraq veterans come back, what are they going to do?

It's going to be like Italy and Germany in the aftermath of the First World War.

PRITCHO@exponential - - Re The Troops #1341707/18/05; 22:49:05

Thanks for your story - In the playground with GB.I guess it doesn't get any closer than that:)

Yes it will be very interesting when the guys come home - trouble is spread over a large population the ones that really care are the families & friends - lets hope they can make a big enough noise! Not much being said at the moment cause it only affects a limited number - -different story though if the PTB tried to bring in a draft

- - - Then the $heite would hit the proverbial.

OvSexponential#1341717/18/05; 23:43:11

:-) OvS
OvSRe: Mechtilde von Lichnowsky#1341727/19/05; 00:02:40

A fine lady.
Born on August 3rd, 1879 Countess
von und zu Arco-Zinneberg at Castle
Schoenburg, Lower Bavaria.
She was a great-grand daughter of
the Austrian Empress Maria Theresa
and was educated in a convent-school.
Married Count Lichnowsky. She was
against Hitler and her books were
banned in Nazi Germany. Between 1912
and 1914, accompanied her husband to
London were she was an important member
of the cultural and artistic inner
circles. Etc.,etc. OvS

Topazalt Gold.#1341737/19/05; 03:59:07

PoG steeling the loins here as Bond Yields pussy-foot about Buck a leg up.
The SM (read DOW) might come in for a bit of downdraft with repatriations of lower valued currency surely draining Buck profits ...and arb Business a Zero sum game.

Silver, Just be patient ...we aren't done for July yet, imo!

Topaz14Yr alt Gold.#1341747/19/05; 04:40:53

Without doubt my Favourite Chart and clearly showing Golds striving to break free...
...note '05 action as it treats the alt's with a contempt not seen since back in the '80's ...
...and to think it's only a PAPER substitute of the REAL thing!

mikalDow/Gold#1341757/19/05; 08:58:46 Dow 2000, Gold 2000? - FreeMarketNews - July 19, 2005
mikalCritics fear Wal-Mart clout#1341767/19/05; 09:21:23

Wal-Mart Applies to Create a Utah Bank - AP - July 19, 2005
"Critics fear Wal-Mart could drive smaller banks and credit unions out of business." Competition and shifting economic climate threaten to drive away moneychangers!

CoBra(too)@ Timberline - M.v. Lichnowski#1341777/19/05; 09:43:37

The brief bio from OvS is correct. Got to sift through my library for more details - The verses came from her book
"Halb und Halb" ... weiss das Kalb,
was geschieht, wenn mans zieht
aus dem kuhwarm überhitzten Stall.

I think there was only one second edition, also more than 60 years ago.
Will revert as soon as I find it. Some of the verses there are real gold!
Thanks cb2

CometoseOT#1341787/19/05; 09:53:16

Three Texas surgeons were playing golf together and discussing surgeries they had performed.
One of them said, "I'm the best surgeon in Texas. A concert pianist lost 7 fingers in an accident, I reattached them, and 8 months later he performed a private concert for the Queen of England."
One of the others said, "That's nothing. A young man lost both arms and legs in an accident, I reattached them, and 2 years later he won a gold medal in field events in the Olympics."
The third surgeon said, "You guys are amateurs. Several years ago a cowboy who was high on cocaine and alcohol rode a horse head-on into a train traveling 80 miles an hour. All I had left to work with was the horse's ass and a cowboy hat. Now he's president of the United States.

timberlineBesten Dank - Halb & Halb#1341797/19/05; 10:25:26

Thank you CoBra(too).

Spare yourself digging through your books.

All I needed was the title. Stanford Libraries will not let their copy circulate; it is a rare book, however....

A quick search of the author and title, expressed as it is cataloged at Stanford, i.e., "Halb & Halb" yields copies for sale all over Europe. Now all I need to do decipher all the used book codes as expressed in German.

Gold is where you find it.......


geUS Treasury bond prices falling#1341807/19/05; 10:51:55

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Tuesday Market Excerpts

July 19 (from Reuters) -- Gold slipped but still held atop a key support level at $418.20 -- the six-week low reached last Friday -- as the dollar climbed on thoughts that the U.S. Federal Reserve will continue to hike interest rates this year.

COMEX August gold futures fell 80 cents to end at $420.20 after dealing from $422.40 to $418.90. Fed chief Greenspan was expected to give an optimistic assessment of the U.S. economy in two days of congressional testimony starting Wednesday.

Rising rates usually prop up the greenback and weigh on gold by making the dollar-denominated metal less attractive for overseas investors. "The market's following the euro lower," said a broker, noting that trade was thin and some participants seemed content to stay on the sidelines ahead of Greenspan's testimony.

Analysts said the precious metals market slipped into the summer doldrums this week, with volumes thinned by vacations, and gold specifically was staying in a well-worn, $15 range.

"We can expect a period of reduced price volatility over the summer, with the likely trading range (in spot gold) set by technical support located between $418 and $415 and overhead resistance in the form of the long-term moving averages pegged between $428 and $430," Standard Bank said in a report.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

mikalSpeculation shakier in dollar or bonds?#1341837/19/05; 18:27:05

Will Greenspan Bring the Dollar More Volatility? - Kathy Lien - July 19, 2005
Excerpt: "The debate between 3.75% and 4.00% rates should remain very much alive after Greenspan's speeches Wednesday and Thursday, but as always, the semi-annual Humphrey Hawkins testimony does have the means of moving markets, especially since there will be a lively question and answer session after each of his testimonies."

DoubleEagleRe: Mikal and Walmart Banking#1341847/19/05; 18:52:06

This is much ado about nothing, in my opinion. Banking isn't like selling consumer staples and cheap clothes. My hometown (150,000 people), still has several mom-and-pop banks as well as several credit unions, despite the presence of Bank of America (huge, national bank), and US Bank (a large regional bank). Lots of small towns with little more than a gas station have a bank. Maybe if Walmart went into a place with very limited existing banking options, you would see some of them go down. Otherwise, the competition should be welcomed. The fee structure at the large mega banks is very bad for the consumer, and there's no denying they're in collusion with one another. I'd like to see Walmart stick it too them in that regard. It's why I bank at a credit union.

One place Walmart could be very successful is if they start putting Walmart branded banks in their supercenters. Lots of lower class folks that traditional banks have turned their backs on would see the appeal of banking where they shop. Not to mention all the Walmart employees who would be given incentives to direct deposit their pay in the Walmart bank. Think of that. Aren't they the largest private employer in the United States?

-beaumon (nearly secumming to the summer gold doldrums)

melda laureWhy does elemental gold occur naturally at all?#1341857/19/05; 19:38:23

My condolences Sir Goldilox.

Given the discussion over Tempel 1, I wonder that nobody has ever asked, why, given the smashings and crashings, the general tumult, and eruptions that earth is subject to (and has been subjected to), why it is that the earth is NOT a uniform alloyed mixture? Of course the vast majority of the universe is quite dull, empty space, a sprinlking of stars and gas clouds. Ignoring the odd erosionary processes that will create a salt flats, and so on, yet still we find whole mountains of granite, fields of basalt, acres of rocky quartz, in general:

Somehow, all the rocks got sorted into separate piles!

It does seem to be an odd violation of entropy which mere handwaving allusions to van der walls forces fail to explain in any satisfactory manner. The Valar alone know or could tell how a uniform gas cloud produces little blobs of yellow metal extruded into a quartz matrix. Perhaps Eru has a sense of humor after all, no? There is a joke that humor is the one thing elves taught the Valar: and the student never quite did learn the lesson properly, they're much too serious! Oh well, universal uniformity would be dull.

The Golden Sphere.

Now just imagine the kind of smashings that would be required to mine that "deep vault"! Mmmmm Orc mischief, not a nice thought... best observed from a VERY great distance, (temporal distance too!)... As a few dwarves have told me time and again: If you dont want solder splashes on your new tunic, herinko, dont stand so close to the solder pot!


ToolieJust for fun#1341867/19/05; 19:48:35

Once everybody's been out-sourced
Across the USA
Then everybody'd be serfin’
Like Michigan today

You'll see ‘em beggin’ fer money
And leftovers too
It's a Bushie Bushie con-e-me
Serfin’ USA

You'll catch ‘em serfin’ in Georgia
Philidelpha P.A.
The Carolinas and Kanses
Their jobs gone away
All over Manhattan
And Cali-forni-a
Everybody's gone serfin’
Serfin’ USA

Everybodys been out-sourced
Serfin’ USA

Ya know iffin ya don't pro-duce
Then ya can't consume
We don't make no exports
It spells a certain doom
Look out for fallin’ dollars
It's goin down to stay
Everybodys gone serfin’
Serfin’ USA

The farmers and the cowboys
On federal aeeed
McMansions repossessed
And Escalades
Even illegal labor
Can no longer get paid.

Everybodys been out-sourced
Serfin’ USA

Everybodys been out-sourced
Serfin’ USA

Everybodys been out-sourced
Serfin’ USA

(Townie, no hard feelings if you wipe it)

slingshotPritcho Soldiers silence#1341877/19/05; 21:39:33

Ladies and Knights of the Table Round. Please excuse my absence for these past few days for I had a Friend who has befallen Dire Straits. To say further, he should recover. Now I return to this Forum and see that some try to twist the truth. To state I will not allow any disinformation when it comes to our military ( the Ground Troops ) I WILL FIGHT IT TO THE END!
Sir Pritcho. I did seen that commentary by President Bush. And you can say all you want against him and his policies. But if you notice at the beginning all Troops were called to ATTENTION and then put at ease. It was respect for the Commander in Chief.I do say Sir Pritcho, They Know their DUTY. Call it respect or disgust. I call it RESPECT! Many times I have stood in formation without giving no response to a statement that had given support.
Sir Pritcho. You can say all you want about about the political point of veiw but I will not stand by and let you degrade our troops when I know it to be false.
I have two friends and One family menber that proves you wrong. Even if you site some link.
I Stand at the Ready!

Gandalf the WhiteThey are BACK !!#1341887/19/05; 21:54:40

LOOK !! The BEAUTIFUL WATERFALLS have returned to the US$ Chart.

slingshot(No Subject)#1341897/19/05; 22:00:01

Good to see you, Gandalf the White.

slingshotkeeping tabs#1341907/19/05; 22:21:43

WELL, WELL, Gandalf the White,
You have been most silent in keeping with the way of an enlightened Wizard But I have found that your peculiar comments have been missing except for the occasional graph for which I am most in graditude. Yet Wizard, we have a common bond and I need not say no more. You wait for the pronouncements of Sir Towncrier and Sir MarkeTalk to bulwark what you have already known. But the out come?

slingshotexponential , Are you out there?#1341917/19/05; 22:36:57

Awaiting Reply.

PRITCHO@Slingshot - - and Soldiers Silence #1341927/19/05; 23:03:20

Obviously you seem inclined to shoot the messenger. What a shame --it reminds me of the FACT that you can take a horse to water BUT you can't make him drink.The comments that I cut & pasted were also reported in the New York Times.Your outporing of what ever it was -doesn't change facts -just cause you don't want to believe it.

I don't deal with fantasy - - I know you do --perhaps you should stick with that?

slingshotSir Pritcho.#1341937/19/05; 23:55:59

Far from it to shoot the messenger. But what have you to believe, the News Media? or from trusted friends and Family?

exponentialexponential , Are you out there?#1341947/20/05; 00:04:30

Sir Slingshot -

I just checked in before retiring. I will be here for about five minutes.

> But if you notice at the beginning
> all Troops were called to ATTENTION and then put at ease.

Yes, that's standard procedure, isn't it? But normally they applaud and cheer the Commander in Chief. The fact that they were called to attention and then put at ease doesn't stop them from responding to the speech.

slingshotExponential#1341957/20/05; 00:14:08

Orders may be given to express neither pro or con as to the contents of the speech. It is informative in nature. The soldier only takes orders.

exponentialThe silence of the troops#1341967/20/05; 00:22:34

> The soldier only takes orders.

No, I don't think so. Soldiers are men, not robots. They have emotions and express them. Normally a Presidential speech is interrupted by applause. When that doesn't happen, it's not because the soldiers were ordered not to applaud.

There was a lack of applause because there was a lack of enthusiasm - to say the least.

slingshotPritcho Fantasy?#1341977/20/05; 00:27:23

Good Sir, I do Not Deal With Fantasy. A Story yes for entertainment, but I deal with reality! Since you have underestimated me as to my contributionions to this forum, I question your motives as you post as to being pro or con to the well being of the USA Fighting Man. Are You Anti US. That is Fine But Leave the Soldier out!

slingshotExponential#1341987/20/05; 00:33:26

Yes I agree. I have been at many military assemblies and the fact that no cheer was raised does not mean S**T

TopazIf I remember the drill,#1341997/20/05; 01:28:08

It was Atten-tion, Stand at-ease, IF the situation THEN warranted, the command was, Stand-easy. ie: free to whoop 'n holler...but I digress,

Notice PoG action of late (via neighbouring 3day Graph) Really Jagged action throughout the non-Comex period, then benign but directionally positive/negative during the live session.
Bodes ill for anyone trying to drive a physical solution in a non-delivery month methinks.

slingshotA subject far from Gold#1342007/20/05; 01:42:12

It looks like I have scared everyone away,or is it silence is the best treatment. That is fine. You see I remain true to the Fighting Man of my Country. Because I WAS ONE. Bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice of which no civilian has had privy too. Men march under orders into battle and in some cases recieve unbearable wounds that last for life and some wounds that show up later in life long after the struggle. I live in a military town and see these misfortunes. I have lost friends in a War Zone and on station during the Cold War. To this Day I Welcome Vietnam Vets. I was not in country but was in service during the conflict. Older now I see those who come back from the desert with simular problems like agent orange/ depleted uranium. Please leave my comrades out of the political stuff. They have alot more on their minds.

slingshotTopaz#1342017/20/05; 01:55:32

A golden story of old which encompassed a Sargent Major, petty officer 3rd class and a civilian who played the bagpipes.

slingshotDead Zones#1342027/20/05; 02:37:11

I am looking back on posted times and it appears to be Dead Zone Times.

PRITCHO@Slinger - - - Getting A Bit Personal Now - - - -#1342037/20/05; 02:59:41

I'm not into a slanging match with you -mate -but you're pushing limits & I'm well aware that is not appreciated here. However I will deal with your allegations as to my motives & leave it for saner ones to decide -I'm sure they already have.You ride out of the sunset like a hero in one of your imaginary stories - flag hoised high & full of hot air.The info I posted was factual and was published by
"The Privateer" - a very well respected private letter written by an American!

Firstly I am not anti US --that is an outright BS claim no doubt made in frustration because you have nothing else factual to say. Beating your drum on "me" speaking against the "fighting men" is also pure dribble.If anything the silence of the soldiers(like it or not) shows that they can think for themselves and are not mindless grunts like you would have us believe. I do feel sorry for troops that have been forced into doing extended tours against their will.Your soldiers are demoralized & don't want to be there
but they have NO choice.Over 5000 have deserted -see
Those killed & wounded come home under cover of darkness & the media is barred.Do a Google search for yourself.

I AM totally opposed to your current Govt & what they are doing in the name of democracy.I am ALSO totally opposed to my own Govts (Australia) support for Bush & his band.I have no doubt you see yourself as a great patriot -- get real & explore what's really happening.Listen with your mind to some fellow Americans --who do see what's happening & who do speak out often to their own detriment.
You could start with these: The Crock of Appeasment No MAS

Finally --
"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State." -- Dr. Joseph M. Goebbel

A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. – Edward Abbe.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." – Julius Caesar

"When a stupid man is doing something
he is ashamed of, he always declares
that is his duty. -- George Bernard Shaw

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slingshotWho brought up the subject of Troops first?#1342057/20/05; 03:28:31

Sir Pritcho, I just asked you if you were Anti US and with the internet being as such and words as they may a simple yes or no would surfice. You can call me Hot Air and that is your right and to tell you the truth it does not offend me at all. I am a Patriot, and being Factual? I know some of my friends have died and in which war is doesn't matter. Put up all the links you want and I might say I can Google all I want. I'll just rely on the word from the TROOPS who have returned home safely. I agree with you on the drums of war but I think it should be the Troops who disagree with the administration and not the media projecting (Whomever) this so called objection. On the subject of AWOL. It is always a part of War

GoldiloxMore Layoffs#1342067/20/05; 08:19:38


We're only a few days ahead of the government's release of the latest mass layoff report, but at the rate the past couple of days, things are turning around and heading down for working people again. Yesterday we mentioned a layoff of 14,500 to you. This morning, we're sad to report that Kodak will be laying off 10,000.

This continues to be the effect of "productivity" in the workplace I guess. And in economic terms, it goes something like this: If sales are flat and the number of total product units consumed is flat and productivity goes up then the number of persons employed must go down. However, it's not a pretty thing when it happens and the national media, with a few exceptions hasn't got the brains God gave chickens to ask questions like "So, what is the optimum increase in productivity that will slow the rate of layoffs?" It's just too much common sense to be asked at a news conference of talking heads.


Should be interesting to see how the numbers look after the BLS "mods".

GoldiloxChina's Money#1342077/20/05; 08:24:44


Although China's national oil company had made a big noise about trying to buy Unocal for $18.5 billion, the Unocal Board is going with a lesser $17 billion bid from Condi Rice's cohorts over at Chevron Texaco. We don't expect this will be the last of the discussion, though. We look for China to come back with more money, after all, we're the source of it, us US consumers. China effectively has all the money in the world to spend if they wish to and we're printing it up for them.

While this is going on, China is also firming up her military with a report today of how military hardware is being added at a faster than ever clip. Again, this is no surprise and shouldn't worry American policy makers. After all, if Bill Clinton OK'd their purchases of super computers, and we just keep getting more dependent on Chinese goods, this must be a good thing, right?

The key learning point of US trade relations with China is that a country can take on the US and get just about anything they want if they just put enough dollar signs in front of corporatist leaders. The corporation folks - as evident in the CFR report linked above - clearly don't care about equal wages or equal rights or equal anything. The only reason that "fair trade" works as a mantra is that fair trade isn't "fair."

The machinist in Singapore does not make what the machinist in Wisconsin makes. Yet ignoring the purchasing power parity reality of the world is precisely what has given Globalism/corporatism such a strong policy hold. It's the Big Lie, repeated often enough that it is accepted blindly except for a few thinking people and some anarchists at WTO meetings, who are right on policy but wrong on action.


It seems that the Iraq "conundrum" is just enough distraction to keep throwing us off from the "bigger picture". Iraq may, in some ways be a proxy for the globalist agendae, but it is still ONLY a proxy, not the entire picture.

mikalGold seen stronger, dollar lower#1342087/20/05; 11:04:31

Jul 20, 2005 -
by staff reports
Since last fall the U.S. Dollar Index has staged an impressive rally from the 80 area, to roughly 91. Whereas most market observers were predicting even lower prices going forward, the reverse has lately been true. Now it appears that many of the naysayers have jumped on the bullish bandwagon. However, Lars Lindgrin, writing on notes, the "target is still down to 61 within the first quarter of 2007."
Dan Denning, in a posting for Financial Sense Online, believes "there is less to the current dollar bull market than meets the eye." Denning's perspective is that dollar purchasers are not the kind to "buy and hold" – and that in this case what goes up can also go down, and rapidly. Who are these buyers? Hedge funds, Denning says. Now that China and Japan have cut back on their purchases, these buyers are filling the void. But unlike Japanese or Chinese institutions, hedge funds trade in and out of the market. Explains Denning, "When the hedge funds sell, or quit buying, who will pick up the slack? No one."
Denning does not explore the simmering controversy as to the transparency of the hedge fund sector – the reports that at least some of the funds doing the buying are doing so at the behest of the US Treasury itself, the agency doing the selling. Such self-dealing to drive up prices and mop up liquidity has been the subject of several FMNN radio interviews with correspondent Jim Kirby who has analyzed hedge fund buying patterns.
Though he is either not aware of this controversy or has chosen to avoid it, Denning does not look at the sector with rose-colored glasses by any means, noting that, "It is possible the dollar can remain stronger for longer than anyone expects. But the whole currency regime can come crashing down much more quickly than anyone expects as well." Denning's picks? "For the remainder of 2005, look for strong performances from Asian currencies, grains, and – of course – gold."

White Hillsanti US?#1342097/20/05; 11:53:24

Sir PRITCHO, I am a little confused after reading your Post. In one sentence you state that you are not anti US and in another you state you are totally opposed to our current government and what they are doing in the name of Democracy. Which is it?
You go on to quote a mass murderer (Goebbel) and a Dictator and I can't see why you brought Shaw into it. Who do you thing is ashamed? When you say you feel sorry for the troops that have been forced to doing extended tours against their will and that they are demorilized and don't want to be there, who are you referring to? Some troops or all troops? How many have you interviewed or are you getting all your info from all the anti american and anti war web sights and the New York Times. Have you ever been in the Military and fought for your country?
Next time you have a point to make it probably wouldn't be a good idea to quote the sources that you have used, they sort of tell everybody where you are coming from and where you are going. With Respect, White Hills

exponentialthe ominous silence of the troops#1342107/20/05; 12:30:07

Sir Slingshot -

I hope tempers have cooled since last night. Pritcho's original post was NOT meant to be an insult to the troops. Far from it.

The soldiers stood there in stony silence because they knew the President was lying to them.

THE SOLDIERS DID THE RIGHT THING. It's the President who is at fault.

It's bad enough to see your friends die, but what if you catch on that they are dying for nothing - for a hoax. Then what? When you see your friends dying in a war that was started under false pretenses, then what?

When soldiers feel betrayed by their leaders, you have a very dicey situation. When those soldiers come home to small towns all over America, and can't find jobs because the economy has been destroyed by the same people who sent them to a phony war, they are going to feel even more betrayed. And when they catch on that voting won't solve the problem, since the Democrats are part of the same rotten system ------------ then what?

They are going to bring the war home.

Buy Gold.

Druid(No Subject)#1342117/20/05; 12:39:24

Druid: Pretty interesting action concerning the dollar.
TownCrierRussian gold and currency reserves up 21.7 % over 6 months#1342127/20/05; 13:00:09

MOSCOW, July 20 (RIA Novosti) - Russian gold and currency reserves amounted to $151.5 billion on July 1, a growth of 21.7 percent...

^------(from url)----^

News blurb is nicely accompanied by a picture of assorted gold bars instead of currency.

I apologize that this post has nothing to do with the President, the troops, or Iraq. I'll try harder next time.


TownCrierGreenspan warns China currency peg causes "very serious" problems#1342137/20/05; 13:13:46

WASHINGTON (AFP) - ...Greenspan told the financial services committee of the US House of Representatives that the Chinese authorities were aware of the weakness of their currency system and wanted to revalue the yuan.

...This, he said, was largely because financial operations that China uses to support its currency require the central bank to accumulate "very large" amounts of US Treasury bonds.

...US manufacturers contend that China's fixed currency system has undervalued the yuan by as much as 40 percent...

US senators have held back a planned bill that would slap a hefty 27.5 percent tariff on Chinese imports after assurances by Greenspan and administration officials that a yuan revaluation is coming.

Greenspan reiterated that he was against such "significant punitive tariffs," because they would not protect US jobs "but also because the global system is something which is terribly important to the United States."

"Anything we do which restrains world globalization at the end of the day redounds, you understand, to our disadvantage," he said.

^----(see url for article)----^

"World globalization"???

Well, I suppose if someone is going to "globalize" SOMEthing, the world would be a natural choice for it. Although there is a rumor now circulating that the moon would prove to be an easier mark, initially, for "globalization".

Again, sorry for the absence of relevant news of the President, the troops, and Iraq.


GoldiloxAnti-policy is not necessarily anti-American#1342147/20/05; 13:29:21

I've been watching this exchange cursorily, as I am wrapping up a family funeral out of town.

When the discussion suggests that someone is Anti-American for being "anti-policy", it has obviously deteriorated into epithets and completely lost any principles of examination.

The New York Times is certainly not the most Pro-War rag in the country, but suggesting that they are Anti-American is just thoughtless slander, especially coming from someone who has repeatedly refused to offer ANY alternative sources of information when requested. I would venture that the "War is Glorious" rags who flippantly encourage the waste of American youth to butcher "unbelievers" are even more anti-American, especially if truth, discussion, and freedom are still among American principles.

The whole point of having a "free Republic" is to encourage debate and even downright dissent. Democracy is not even as simple as "majority rules", because the principles of the Constitution demand that the rights of the minority must be protected as well. As goldbugs, we should be well versed in that particular peculiarity.

I live a couple miles from one of the largest Marine Corp base in the US, and spend many hours a week conversing with Marines and sailors just home from deployment at the local watering hole. They are not happy with being irradiated by our own "nuclear waste" uranium ammo, having to ask their parents to buy them armor at the local surplus store and and especially playing policeman in the the Bush family's "private" oil patch.

Especially since the death of Col. Hackworth, who ran the "Soldiers for the Truth" website, they have little available outlet for complaint. Complaining through the "chain of command" is discouraged to the point of punishment, and the soldier mentality and USUCMJ do not make it easy for them to engage in public debate. Contrary to the media's depiction, they are individuals with their own opinions and views beyond what they allowed to publicly express.

Slogans like "America, love it or leave it" are, not surprisingly, usually bandied about by those who NEVER lift a finger to learn about things like the Constitution, balance of power, or minority rights. Nor do they usually participate in the electoral process, be it stumping for candidates, or helping with initiative and referendum legislation. They just want to have some "benevolent Daddy BigBucks" take care of everything for them and tell them how "free" they will be if they just turn all their rights and responsibilities over to him for "safe keeping" - which WAS one of Hitler's most successful tactics.

Maintaining freedom is a lot more than just sending troops to annihilate the foreign "non-believers". It also requires that the locals be willing to question authority, examine evidence, support candidates, and fully participate in their own democracy.

Dang, growing up is a full-time job. We need to contribute to our society, be self-supporting by our own contributions, maintain vigilence of our security - both foreign and domestic, raise families, bury our dead, plan our futures, all the various and sundry requirements for successful social function. This adult stuff is DARN HARD!

OK, I am ranting now, so have a good day, y'all! I'll be back home soon, so save some gold for me!

TopazRelative performance Au/Ag#1342157/20/05; 14:02:32

This Chart highlights the performance of Gold and Silver relative to Comex delivery window.
A keen eye can differentiate the del/non-del periods and perceive the counter-trend in these two metals.

We are definitely NOT done with Ag this month! Of that I'm certain.

Randy: - Acts of contrition duly noted ...absolution pending...........;-)

GoldiloxLiberals protecting property rights#1342167/20/05; 14:06:16

Regarding the Kelo decision, I just received the following snip in an email from Senator Boxer of CA.

" Thank you for contacting me regarding
eminent domain and the recent U.S. Supreme Court
ruling in Kelo v. City of New London. I
appreciate the opportunity to respond to your
concerns about this important issue.

Although the government has the right to
appropriate private property for public use
through eminent domain, the founders of our
great nation provided protections against the
abuse of this right. These protections are
included in the Fifth Amendment of the U.S.
Constitution, which allows the government to
seize private property only for public use and
requires that the owner of the confiscated
property be justly compensated.

In its Kelo decision, the Supreme Court
found that the government may seize the private
property of one owner and transfer that property
to another private owner if this transfer would
benefit the community through increased economic

I believe that the Court's finding
violates the private property rights that the
Founders fought so hard to protect. That is why
I am a cosponsor of S.1313, the Protection of
Homes, Small Businesses, and Private Property
Act of 2005. This bipartisan bill would protect
homes, small businesses, and other private
property by limiting the power of eminent
domain. Rest assured, I remain committed to
protecting the property rights of all Americans.


Here's something the liberals and conservatives should be able to find some common ground on!

Goldiloxmore Kelo#1342177/20/05; 14:16:34

It occurs to me that the Kelo vs. New London decision is not unlike the priciples used by Roosevelt to effect the confiscation of private gold into the public treasury in order to aid the failing banks of the 1930's.

Notice that they abscond from the people to aid the banks - never the other way around.

FDIC and SLDIC are similar - we are taught that they protect our savings, but the bottom line is that they offer the banks protection using our tax dollars.

The "banksters" are absolved from wrong-doing, and we eat the cost of their failure out of tax coffers.

TopazANOTHER little curiousity.#1342187/20/05; 14:23:38

Chinese Seizmic servers go down, Blip appears on Taiwan Server, dust settles, Chinese Servers switched back on.


GoldiloxSeismic activity#1342197/20/05; 14:26:57

@ Topaz,

Here's another curiousity from your seismic reference.

The Chinese stations may be silent, but the Russian graph is off the charts!

GoldiloxRE: Post 134212#1342207/20/05; 14:31:23

Nice photo, TC. A picture is definitely worth a thousand words.

Without breaking dwn the constituent currencies, what does an increase in Russian reserves really tell us, if anything?

Perhaps that foreign trade is increasing?

Topaz@G-lox#1342217/20/05; 14:55:34

We'll have to start referring to you as "Brother-Bear" ...with that keen eye of yours ...(sorry ;-)

Truth be told the Rusky server is chronically jumpy, but the Korean one got it ...probably just the Premier expressing "utter disappointment" in seeing Unocal slip through his fingers eh?

GoldiloxTaiwan Station#1342227/20/05; 15:27:26

@ Topaz,

The Taiwan station is also exhibiting some interesting event activity.

Great Albino BatChina and the Unocal rebuff...#1342237/20/05; 15:49:49

If China is not able to acquire Unocal, some think this may set off painful reprisals against the US on the part of China. Reprisals having to do with, No. 1, dumping US Dollars or 2. Refusing to accumulate more US securities with Dollar balances 3. other painful measures.

A poster at neighboring forum put it this way:

"Does a refusal to allow the Unocal purchase appear to be a "Closing of the Dollar Window", much like the closing of the Gold Window in 1971?"

In other words, the fear is China might reason thus:

"If we can't use the Dollars to buy US companies, just what do we want them for?"

The Chinese leadership are patient people, and I do NOT think they will take any drastic measure in reprisal for this Unocal rebuff.

But, they WILL take note and write this down in their little black book, as, "To Be Dealt With At the Right Time".

The Unocal fracas is just one more incident that will contribute in due course, to the Chinese foreign policy. There will be a time of settling scores, of that we may be sure. But, just not immediately.


CoBra(too)Hello Max Rabbitz!#1342247/20/05; 16:05:23

...And thanks for taking the time to respond.

Still I would suggest to go back to the quote of a friend of mine and a Wall Street Veteran:
- "Although I remain a strong advocate of gold playing an important monetary role, it is unquestionably for the best that the collusion between the U.S. and probably other other members of the G-8 which was aimed at abolishing gold's monetary role in all eternity , is never exposed. The future of democracy and the capitalist system is in grave danger at this time, and to heap even more disrepute upon our political leadership would not in any way be helpful. Too many other pillars of our society have been severely damaged by scandal in recent times, and another scandal, especially one of this magnitude, would only serve to further undermine the underpinnings of our civilization."

Well, as I have the greatest respect for the guy who has written these sentences, I'm also taken aback by the unwillingness of even the smartest and bravest of the brave to tackle the real roots of evil.

Denial is probably the last defense of self preservation. And we can't ever now deny the power of gold - it will always persevere - cb2

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1342257/20/05; 16:11:20">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Wednesday Market Excerpts

July 20 (from MarketWatch) -- Federal Reserve Chief Alan Greenspan's upbeat comments on the U.S. economy tempered strength in gold futures Wednesday, but prices for the yellow metal still managed to close at their highest in a week.

In his semi-annual report on monetary policy to the House Financial Services panel Wednesday, Greenspan said that the economy's in good shape and that he intends the Fed to keep nudging interest rates higher. James Moore, analyst at in London said these factors would likely work against gold in the coming months, though continued high oil prices and an unstable global environment would mean some investors continue to seek out gold as a "safe haven."

COMEX August gold contracts climbed $1.90 to close at $422.10.

"Gold has managed to stay above key support around $416 thanks to strong physical demand and some short covering," said Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter.

Meanwhile, the rally in the U.S dollar "may be coming to an end as big spikes up like [Tuesday] are unable to hold -- a sign of tiring," he said.

Weakness in the dollar usually spurs investment demand for gold.

The July and August period is "one of the seasonally weakest periods for gold," said Grandich.

But looking ahead, "the fundamentals for gold have never been better," he said, pointing out that "mine supply continues to decline, jewelry fabrication remains strong, [and] investment demand outside the U.S. is good."

There will come a time when "American investors sell their tech stocks for a mining company that they don't even know where the company mines," Grandich said, though that won't happen before gold hits and stays above $500.

Buongiorno!Egads!#1342267/20/05; 16:55:48

What has happened to my former favorite forum? Used to have giants like Another, FOA, and Black Blade to present and analyze things. Very little politics, but lotta thought involved.

Now we have to wade through America bashing on July Fourth, lib-rants galore, and Bush bashing ad naseum. That stuff would play better over at www.janefonda.rant--can we not grow up and leave most if not all of that at the door?

I have seen "jokes" posted here that would play better on a wall in a men's room in a bus station located near some border town. Enough!

I think we are better than that and can find adequate challenge in the markets we address. I said before, and say again--we will ruin a fine resource with all this schoolyard chanting and ranting! Basta! Per favore, basta.


J-BullionChina and Unocal#13422707/20/05; 17:51:30

The U.S. will never allow Unocal to be sold as they are the lead company building the pipeline through Afghanistan (Anyone who doubts this, please read some international news and ask yourself why it is not reported in the U.S.) After all our work securing the route through the country the last few years how could we sell it to China. Just read Brezinski's book 'The Grand Chessboard' to understand the politics behind what the U.S. is doing. It goes much deeper than that, but it is a good place to start and understand the geopolitical environment the U.S. is playing in. Still, the Chinese bid for Unocal is interested in that they probably knew full well that they wouldn't be allowed to buy the company but could use the rebuttal of their offer as an excuse later on for whatever their goals are. Maybe 1 day the Chinese will push the gold button which they have threatened to do "dump U.S. treasuries and buy gold bullion in open market operations". What a fine mess the FEd, congress and our political system selling out to the highest bidder has gotten us in.


SundeckGlobalise the Moon?#13422807/20/05; 20:52:51

Hey, TC, what a coincidence that you mention globalising the Moon (#134213) (20th) is the aniversary of The Moon Landing (Armstrong, not Verne). Yes, with Neil's dainty tread, perhaps the globalisation of space began in earnest. How long, I ask you, before gold prospecting moves to the Moon? There's a challenge! All those old prospectors ex-Yukon and ex-Papua will be itching in their graves...think of the fun! Need to do without water, however. Rugged terrain, too. But with low gravity your dogs could haul a LOT more....and your pants won't get pulled off when the pockets are full of gold dust...

Oh, by the way, please keep those non-Presidential and non-Troop posts rolling in... Oh again, and a few non-Religion and a few non-Rove ones might be welcome too...

Oh more again: Sir Gandalf...keep those waterfalls's your PATRIOTIC DUTY to get that dollar down and save the American Consumer from themselves!!!

PS...more KFC (Kangaroo For Canines) is on its way...


mikalHorse blinkers are academically chipper#13422907/20/05; 21:14:43 Is The Fed Bent On Inducing A 2006 Recession - Kasriel and Bangalore
This is quite long(and thorough) so the last paragraph
should reliably give a crux of the matter. And to show, what's left out is as telling as what's in.
A bet on the right horse with proven performance is best, to outpace inflation down the stretch and adroitly clear hurdles even in fixed races.

exponentialEgads!#13423007/20/05; 22:24:14


If you have some deep thoughts about the financial system, why don't you tell us what they are?

On just about every forum I have ever read, somebody is always complaining that the forum isn't what it used to be. Such complaints usually come from people who never had much to contribute themselves.

As for the jokes, I don't spend that much time in bus station rest rooms, so I wouldn't know. I agree that they are one sided, but since the Republicans are in power at the moment, they are the natural targets.

The link is to a page from this forum, to remind everybody what it looked like in the good old days.

PRITCHO@ White Hills - - Re Your 134209#13423107/20/05; 22:55:00

I'd expect you to be confused - -from previous encounters I've found you to be as short sighedly one eyed as it'd possible to be. - (along with brother in arms Buongiorno!)
Nothing more to say from my end. -- any others to come? :)

Nice to see some good -homegrown rebuttals to the above.

SundeckDollar volatility#1342327/21/05; 03:29:13

I half expected the dollar to come back after its wild swing north and south between about 0700 and 1500, but it looks like it is going for a holiday in the south for a while...was it something that Al Greenspan said?

Still, anything could happen yet...remember we are dealing with currency traders and hedge funds...ever seen the flock of birds change direction, as one, and wheel across the sky...or the school of fish scatter and then resume a single course as one...well, if you have, you understand currency traders and hedge funds pretty well...that is probably what we are seeing in the dollar...its all herd!!...remember, you heard it at USAGold...

Very quiet here lately... dang it all TC, were we too hard on troops and religion and Iraq and Rove and Bush (bless his little heart) and all those other emotive issues??

Oh, by the way, if you don't have any Bush/Rove/troops/Iraq/religion posts to offer, then I'm just as happy for you to not post one on anti-America or Israel, or terrorism...but that is just my view and, no doubt, there are other views out there waitin' to be heard...

Have a nice day (or is it night)...(only teasin'!!!!)

Cheeky Sundeck

hee hee hee


Ned@ PRITCHO#1342337/21/05; 04:49:28

Your BOLD handle sure does give way to your BOLD disposition. I've seen you post about a dozen times and each and every time you are in a scrap with someone.

Why is that PRITCHO?

Your demeanor is anything but golden Sir.

mikalCBSMARKETWATCH: Bulletin - China CB reforms yuan peg#1342347/21/05; 05:28:33

Japanese yen up sharply vs dollar
mikalGreenspan's China warning yesterday was not surprising?#1342357/21/05; 05:37:03

China revalues currency for first time in a decade - July 21, 2005
* Changes yuan peg to dollar from 8.28 to 8.11
* Scraps peg to dollar in favor of peg to basket of currencies

mikalYen rises vs dollar#1342367/21/05; 05:58:29

Yen rallies sharply after China eliminates dollar peg - Reuters UK - 08-21-05
mikalMalaysia follows, Singapore to soon "issue statement"#1342377/21/05; 06:11:17

Yen extends rally after China, Malaysia FX moves
LONDON, July 21 (Reuters) - Excerpt: "Malaysia said it has changed the ringgit peg to a managed float, fuelling further gains. Singapore's central bank also said it would issue a statement shortly."
"Asian contagion" gets a new twist. Gold bull still in INFANCY.

mikalChina lists advantages to Yuan reform#1342387/21/05; 06:30:12

China central bank repegs yuan to basket of currencies -
BEIJING (AFX) - Excerpt: "The PBOC said that the move is aimed at solving a host of problems that the 11- year peg to the dollar had been causing on the back of China's recent economic expansion. "The move is aimed at easing trade imbalances, boosting domestic demand and
increasing Chinese companies' competitiveness," the PBOC said in a statement on its website. "It will also help to increase the independence of monetary policy, improve the effectiveness of financial controls, help maintain the basic balance of imports and exports to improve trade conditions, stabilize prices and cut corporate costs.""
I'm not agreeing with these plusses they've listed. Estimates of trade improvements after revaluation are always wildly exxagerated, especially with the large component of labor costs. The US trade deficit can only come down through reduced consumption and credit splurging. "Cut corporate costs" is to China's advantage and will fuel consumption/imports of oil, copper, etc.

mikalChina revaluation signals intentions#1342397/21/05; 06:56:19;_ylt=A

China Severs Its Currency's Link to Dollar - Stephanie Hoo - AP - July 21, 2005
China plans further revaluation in a "gradual approach". US Treasuries dive. [Link provided by GATA]

Clink!New packaging for Mapleleaves#1342407/21/05; 07:56:40

Snip :
Since inception, 1-oz Gold Maple Leafs have been packaged ten to a tube. Because Maple Leafs are 24-karat, pure gold, they are "soft," relative to alloyed gold coins, such as American Gold Eagles and Krugerrands. Further, because of the design of the coins and the tight-fitting tubes, it is difficult to remove, inspect, and reinsert 1-oz Gold Maple Leafs in their tubes without scratching the coins.

and :

With the new packaging, each 1-oz Gold Maple Leaf will be encapsulated in plastic and suspended in the middle of a plastic card, somewhat as 1-oz gold bars are packaged. However, the plastic protecting the Gold Maple Leafs will be heavier and more durable than the plastic used with 1-oz gold bars. The new packaging should keep the coins from being easily damaged.

C! This wouldn't be the first time that a perfectly acceptable product's sales have been revived by repackaging !

However, I would have to take issue with another part of the article :

Then there is the problem with investors who like to "heft" their coins "to get a feel of them." If they put four or five Gold Maple Leafs in the palms of their hands and "clang" them, the damage can be quite severe.

C! This is, of course, a load of rubbish. They don't go "clang", they go "Clink!"

PS. Full disclosure - I haven't dared go back and look at the damage I inflicted on my coins since reading this article !

HenriClink#1342417/21/05; 09:00:03

Hey, I would not worry about damage to a maple leaf. They only have value because they are gold not because they are exceptionally beautiful or rare. When gold is scarce they will not suffer loss of value from being "damaged" as long as they are still true weight. They are probably only being bought to be melted down into bars anyway.
mikalImplications of new yuan for markets, globalization#1342427/21/05; 09:38:58 China Revalues, Makes Changes to Peg - FMNN News Staff Reports - July 21, 2005
canamamiWashington II gold sales#1342437/21/05; 10:21:24

Has anyone seen an article concerning whether this year's allocation has been sold yet?
otish mountainClink: My favorite gold coins#1342447/21/05; 10:55:00

Are the ones that have been in circulation. There is an added beauty of age and the developed patina that can't be reproduced. Plus the added bonus of being able to run them through your hands without fear of damage.
geEconomic Slowdown?#1342457/21/05; 11:57:00

Dry freight index falls on waning demand

Steel rod pricing headed South

Near-term nickel prices are ebbing

SundeckYuan#1342467/21/05; 12:47:44 is this now going to work?

What is the basket?

And I gather the Yuan is going to be maintained at 8.11 to the dollar (adjusted daily), but instead of buying and selling dollars to do this, the Chinese CB is going to buy and sell the basket of currencies and measure its "dollar value" in terms of their weighted exchange rate against the dollar????

Does this allow the dollar to fall versus the basket currencies? while retaining the 8.11 exchange rate all the way? This is not going to help US/China trade deficit all that much, but it may help the dollar to adjust better than before??

Confusing...need to think more about it...any clear minds out there??

Gold nosing upwards...

mdgcRevaluing the renminbi#1342477/21/05; 13:30:43


The Chinese will create an rmb index much like the dollar index. The index will be based on a basket of currencies: US dollars, Euros, Japanese yen, Korean won and probably a few other currencies (Canada, Australia, NZ, Vietnam, etc).

They have said that they will allow the rmb to move by at most 0.3% daily, a limit move similar to daily limits in commodity trading. I would be very surprised if it were to be a clean float. At least to begin with, it will be a dirty float. The People's Bank of China (their Fed) will intervene so that the rate does not move too quickly.

Topaz@canamami.#1342487/21/05; 13:41:01

This may be of assistance.
Mr Phillips is a keen WAG watcher.

China is certainly showing signs of being miffed eh?
It's often been postulated that she is the seller of last resort in Silver too.
Now if she were to stop buying T's AND stop selling Ag, interesting times may well be dead ahead.

Topaz...whatsmore cana.#1342497/21/05; 14:18:20

The "mystery" Tranche in June was accompanied by a "similar" nett amount of Call Options on the Aug Comex futures contract.
OK, the ECB have had to pony up some Bullion in April, the Mystery in June, the calls could effectively mean Comex is providing metal to sate the market here ...or have already via the Call-payback.
August is shaping up as a defining moment for PoG methinks.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1342507/21/05; 14:56:16">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Thursday Market Excerpts

Gold nears $426 on China revaluation, London blasts

July 21 (from MarketWatch) -- Metals futures staged a broad rally Thursday, with gold closing near $426 an ounce for the first time in over a week as a revaluation in China and explosions in the U.K. rattled investors' nerves.

"The combination of the yuan devaluation and more bombings in London has served to increase the underpinnings in gold," said Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter.

The Chinese government on Thursday announced the long-awaited reform of its currency, saying it's dropping its yuan-dollar peg in favor of one versus a basket of currencies.

The government also lifted the currency's value more than 2%. Following the news, the U.S. dollar suffered a broad retreat.

"This is just the start of the dollar devaluation," said Ned Schmidt, editor of the Value View Gold Report, recommending that traders buy silver and gold.

Against this backdrop, "gold has once again held key support, a feat that bodes well for those like me who see $500 in its future," Grandich said.

COMEX August gold contracts rose $3.60 to close at $425.70.

The yuan news "should be generally bullish [for] commodities as it makes imports a couple of percentage points cheaper for Chinese buyers," said Mike Stevens, analyst at SFS futures in Louisiana.

Gold has also found "another flurry of 'safe-haven' buying in response to the London Underground news," said James Moore, analyst at in London.

London police on Thursday said explosions or attempted explosions were reported at three subway stations and on a bus, just two weeks after attacks on three stations and a bus killed more than 50 people.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire, market quotes)---

exponentialgold and deflation#1342517/21/05; 15:49:50

I want to pick up on a thread started by Goldendome last Sunday (message #134132). He said

> The uncertainty created by total and catastrophic credit destruction
> brought about by a significant deflation, might do more in a short time
> for the price of gold than the monetary inflation that is now in part used
> to control gold through the futures market selling.

Leaving aside the question of whether it would do *more*, I just want to consider the idea that it would do *something*, i.e. POG would go up in a deflationary collapse.

Suppose you have x ounces of gold. To be specific, suppose you have 500 ounces for which you paid $150,000. Then, suppose we do get deflation, and POG goes up to $1,000. The question is, what do you do next?

There are two cases, (a) you still have a job, (b) you don't. My guess is that in case (a) almost everyone on this list would keep buying gold, and in case (b) you would sell it bit by bit and use the proceeds to live on. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.

That's not what I would do. Since credit has been destroyed, the thing to do is create new credit. I would lend my gold to people who were trying to start over and build new enterprises.


Perhaps I should provide a context for this. I discovered the usagold forum two or three years ago, when somebody posted a link to a page on my website. I have been reading it off and on since then. It's a great source of links, but I have never agreed with the basic premise of the discussion, i.e. that buying gold is always the best thing to do. I am trying to get my exact point of disagreement in focus. I realize that dissent on basic principles is not welcome here. Bear with me. I am just trying to think this through. After a few more posts I will be finished.

Great Albino BatExponential: For waht it's worth, my humble opinion....#1342527/21/05; 16:17:39

Expo -

Suppose we have a strong deflation and gold is $1,000.
What to do?

Yes, lending out PART of your gold would not be a bad idea, - if you have a good eye for judging a possible debtor.

And - A good eye for the possibilities of the business your loan is going to finance..

And - you get a super-solid collateral of at least 200% of the value of your gold, with a good earning potential, preferably.

And - you have confidence in the support of the Judicial System, to recover your gold from your debtor, in case of default.

And - you have the energy to look after all these things.

Good luck!


exponential@ GAB#1342537/21/05; 16:37:00

Yes, I would have to follow sound banking principles. Granted.
BoilermakerChina's shopping list ?#1342547/21/05; 16:43:47

I'd like to see the Chicom's play hardball by making a simultaneous bid for Barrick and JPM. They'd get deep storage gold, deep storage derivitives and deep storage corruption. This might raise some eyebrows in Washington and Ottawa and maybe they (Chinese) could negotiate a deal for Unocal as a consolation prize. Just a suggestion in the interest of free markets and transparency.
exponential@GAB, further thoughts#1342557/21/05; 17:28:00

> And - you have confidence in the support of the Judicial System,
> to recover your gold from your debtor, in case of default.

If I couldn't count on the Judicial System to recover debts, then I couldn't count on the police to protect me from thieves who want to steal my gold. So there would be no advantage to hoarding as opposed to lending. In a situation like that, you have to hire your own security force or collection agency. That makes everything a lot more difficult, but life goes on. People do manage to conduct business in situations where they can't count on the government.

> And - you have the energy to look after all these things.

Exactly!!! I think that's my whole point here. It's better to use energy than to live passively. It's better to engage the world than to withdraw from it in fear.

> Good luck!


TownCrierOn gold lending#1342567/21/05; 17:30:52

That's a great plan if it's your underlying intention to quash the value of gold.


TownCrierHEADLINE: Yearning for Yuan Clarity#1342577/21/05; 18:13:58

China is keeping its options wide open with its murkily worded announcement July 21 that it's no longer rigidly pegging its currency to the dollar.

The People's Bank of China seems to have learned from Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan that if you're sufficiently vague in your public statements, nobody can ever accuse you of changing your mind.

Laughs Carl Weinberg, chief economist of High Frequency Economics in Valhalla, N.Y.: "We don't know what they're doing. We don't know why they're doing it. And we don't know how they're doing it. Otherwise it's perfectly clear."

...Beijing is leaving itself plenty of room. China didn't announce the currencies in the market basket, or how much weight each would carry. That's a vital factor. Also, China says each day it will choose one currency from the basket to be the reference currency -- but it apparently won't say which one...

^---(from url)---^

Nothing vague about the first few pebbles which foreshadow an avalanche of change.


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.FREE Gold Information Packet...#1342587/21/05; 18:26:26

GoldendomeExponential-- Stick around, we may learn something!#1342597/21/05; 18:38:41

Sir Exponential: Around here, we've had discussions--I think--in the past, attempting to answer the burning question: Does gold pricing benefit more from inflation or deflation?

Generally speaking, nearly everyone has seen the possibility with inflation, as we can look back to the way it was in the late 1970's and early 80's. I was (again generally) in the inflation camp up until recently.

Many (including most Prectorites [followers of Robert Prector]) believed that gold along with everything else--commodities, real estate--everything but cash, would fall in value during a deflation.

One thing that we are seeing now that is different than the 1970's, is that all Central Banks have climbed into the paper ship together. They all work together to inflate their currencies. They all profit from the theft of purchasing power that is initiated, as you will recognize, by the U.S. Federal Reserve. Then is "expanded" by the overseas Central Banks as they hold the U.S. currency, bonds, what have you, in their reserves (you know, U.S dollar good as gold!!! and all that).
When I say above, "expanded", they issue their own paper fiat to their citizens (when their business people submit dollars to them) to prime the pump of growth in their own countries around the world.

Now, this as you know has been going on for 30 years, since the advent of the dollar standard with the closing of the gold exchange window. ALL Central banks are collusive. ALL Central banks have a large--Huge--stake in the paper game. The sham whereby all of the fiats gradually lose purchasing power in the hands of the holders of their currencies. THEY DON'T CARE! They all profit FIRST from the system and keeping it intact and going and growing!

That is why, short of war, I don't see inflation benefiting the price of gold, as part of the paper inflation is used to sell gold in the paper market, that's how they continue to suppress the spot market, to a degree that the public doesn't get overly excited about inflation, as gold is etched as the place that inflation should show up as a safehaven against inflation. All of the Central Banks are taking part in this paper program in one way or another...either protecting the dollar through continual purchases of U.S. paper bonds, etc., holding the paper even as the dollar declines, and selling gold both physical and in the futures market.

Make no mistake, these Central banks all recognize that they have climbed together into the paper boat. Rock that boat--scuttle that boat--and they ALL may perish. As Benjamin Franklin said, they either hang together or hang separately.

The reasons above are why I have changed my opinion about inflation driving the price of gold...there is unlimited paper to drive it back down, and unlimited manipulation to diminish the causal effects of monetary inflation on government statistics.

Now when the accumulated debt becomes so great that we begin to be unable to service it, it causes defaults in contracts, derivatives, hedge funds, banks, governmental sponsored programs, etc....When some institutions and people begin to lose some real money and fear losing a lot more of it, then we could see some significant money going to gold in a hurry, as an aversion to debt other than U.S. Treasuries develops, and people look for Gold and Silver to preserve their capital and perhaps (hopefully) actually see it appreciating as other assets are depreciating.

Exponential: I don't know from your postings whether or not you even give a rip about gold (everyone is concerned with preservation of purchasing power). How they feel it will be preserved is a matter of opinion. The reason that I had made my original post #134132 last Sunday, was that I was shocked that I had so changed my opinion on the inflation/deflation argument, and thought I would throw out the thoughts and see what feed back I received on it. Nothing! Interesting that you (perhaps not even really interested in the argument) was the only person with whom it seemed to strike a chord and generate some thought. Perhaps the political juices for argument had again been raised too high to allow monetary debate.

-------- To your response now --------

Exponential: If you loaned out your gold, don't expect for it to be returned! If you were lucky, the monetary value at the time of it's loaning might be returned. Perhaps you would be just as happy with the "new" money that would hopefully have the purchasing power of the gold you loaned to the entrepreneurs, that then must have been sold to finance the venture. As you know, strict gold clauses are not enforceable as of about 1933. I believe there was a Presidential executive order or there was a section of some monetary law that made them unenforceable in Court. Thanks for the reading!

LacklusterLending Gold#1342607/21/05; 18:49:03

I do not see how lending gold would necessarily "quash gold". Were I to lend an ounce of gold out, for example, and I were to receive the ounce back, with interest of, say, a tenth of an ounce, it seems to me that it would make gold more dear, not less so.
MKTC, Boilermaker, Exponential, et al . . . .Getting our feet on the ground vis a vis today's events#1342617/21/05; 18:50:17

Do you agree with me that the change in reserves is more important than the reval??

Looking for a starting point in understanding today's events.

MKWith respect to the post below. . . .#1342627/21/05; 18:57:00

I did not mean to restrict opinion to those mentioned. Any and all opinion is welcome. That is the purpose of this forum. . . .to give all of us a leg-up in ascertaining the climate with which we all deal. . .
melda laureWhat exactly constitutes a collapse?#1342637/21/05; 19:00:24

Exponential, your plan is theoretically quite good, but what exactly is a deflationary collapse?

$1000 POG?

Or more like $100,000 POG?

If you lived in a modest sized town that was at least partially self sufficient, you might find yourself with the biggest "pile" in the territory so to speak. Assuming you were good friends with the local Police Chief, her Mayorship, and your local credit Union, you just might find yourself appointed...

King of the County (the deep pockets silent partner)

Because in a real collapse, NO DEBT trades for any kind of value so that the economy descends into mere barter between merchants while customers and employers have no means of payment/payroll. Ergo, argentina, food riots. Yerch!

But Just suppose you are one of the lucky ones living out in the sticks. Your 500 oz pile- being the only money in town- must now support the commerce of... 5000 (?) souls. In effect, the "price" is then somewhere in the range of "ten years pay per ounce" so OF COURSE some form of bills will be needed for transaction money.

And so the problem continues... you I am sure can use your imagination. The only advice I can see here is "he who has the gold makes the rules." and of course this means that quickly you become the major share owner in any business you loan to; after all, you are providing 100% of the liquid capital and if they dont like your terms, well, what other choice is there? Hmmm, sounds like tyrany, but that depends on the character of the tyrant, some better than others, some a lesser instance of a Hazzard County Boss Hogg. Given our highly integrated labor specialized world, I doubt this rosy scenario will play out in the small.

The question is not without merit. They (TPTB) really are worried, and they have no short term solution. That said, this situation has played out numerous times in the last 100 years and with alarming frequency in the 3rd world. At $1000 (given the international monetary situation in 2005) I would expect that TPTB would be still very much in control. A price much closer to a years pay per ounce is what I would deem a debt collapse.

In extremis, you're better off in a town where everybody is related to you. You'll probably all starve together, but at least there wont be any riots, that's how it was pre '92.



melda laureThe final deflation a pres le deluge, will be selective.#1342647/21/05; 19:13:08

Goldendome, I have always thought that the final deflation will be selective. Assuming ANY government prevails, the elect will be bailed out or made partners, the rest will be bag holders.

As example consider the post civil war era, when the debts of the US were pledged to be made whole, and those of the confederacy were deemed void. Consider post war nazi germany. Consider the current transformations in Afghanimar and Iraq. Yes! WHOSE debt will be honored, and whose will be annulled is the question often asked, but instead, it is WHICH creditors will be honored and which will be dishonored.

SproutChina#1342657/21/05; 20:13:42

Anyone see what China did soon after they Severed the Dollar Link.?

Appears they finally found something that the Dollars they're holding are still good for!

Exchanging them for Euros - to buy planes from Airbus

In a side note:
Wouldn't want any Board Members on My Board playing Politics, thats for sure! Unless asked too of coarse ;)

GoldendomeYuan revaluation#1342667/21/05; 20:51:08

Sir MK: Sorry, that I can't comment on the "reserves" that you ask about, for I don't know what you are referring to?

However, I do think this Yuan revaluation potentially will be Huge. The 2% immediate revaluation may seem like spitting in the Colorado River, but when we consider that the Yuan will be allowed to move .3% per day against a basket of currencies, it would seem that in a month (twenty trading days) the Yuan could move 6% against the dollar in a month, if moved all in one direction for a month! Over an extended period of time this could be very significant

mikalCurrencies and Gold #1342677/21/05; 20:53:46 Given that China's basket of currencies will provide much fruit for thought, it is no surprise that Peter Schiff has come up with a few good ones. His array of plausible outcomes, succintly outlined in this short essay, must
be among the first of an inspired many:
Who Says No One Rings a Bell - Schiff - July 21, 2005

SundeckYuan revaluation...currency basket#1342687/21/05; 21:05:25

There are effectively an infinite number of possibilities here and we really need more information to restrict the options...

However...what do we know?

1. The Rmb is to be held to near 8.11 US dollars versus 8.28, or whatever it was before...a change of 2%

2. If the dollar reserves held by the PBC was $711 then they still hold $711, but that amount is equivalent to only Rmb5,766Trillion instead of Rmb5,887T...a 2% change.

3. We do not know which currencies make up the basket, but it appears that the Rmb will be fixed to that basket with fixed (or slowly evolving) weightings, presumeably based upon the relative trading importance of the currencies involved.

4. Instead of direct intervention between Rmb and Dollars to maintain the peg, the PBC will intervene more broadly, buying and selling currencies in the basket, juggling their exchange rates with the Dollar until the basket again equals 8.11 Rmb. Thus, for example, if one of the basket currencies weakens with respect to the dollar (all others remaining constant), the PBC would have to boost the dollar-value of the basket to make it again equal 8.11Rmb.

5. There are effectively an infinite number of ways that it could do this. For example, it could use some of its dollar reserves to buy the weakened currency to reinstate its dollar exchange value. Alternatively, it could sell dollars to buy any arbitrary mix of currencies in the basket, thereby strengthening them against the dollar and restoring the basket value again to 8.11Rmb.

6. What happens if the basket strengthens against the dollar? Given the "over-valued" state of the dollar, this would seem to be the most likely scenario going forward. The PBC then has to weaken the basket. If it has plentiful reserves of one or more currencies in the basket, then it can do this by selling those currencies and buying dollars. However, this may not be especially attractive, as that will just create more dollar reserves and it probably already has enough. Also, it may run out of reserves in the basket currencies too soon. What does it do? Perhaps it can pursuade one (or more) of the custodians of the basket currencies to print its currency and buy dollars? Perhaps this will happen anyway...preserving the status quo, as it were, in "the race to the bottom"? Perhaps it could just print Rmb and buy dollars, as Japan has done to maintain a relatively weak Yen vis a vis the dollar? But this just means that it accumulates dollars and has then got to make use of them...same old problem.

7. It seems to me, that this tiny revaluation against the dollar is going to have very little effect on the US trade deficit with China; irrespective of how the PBC goes about maintaning the indirect peg.

8. It seems to me that the main problem with the dollar is that too many contracts use the dollar as the numeraire...the "rock" of stability (ha ha). Unless more and more trade is conducted using different numeraire then demand for the dollar is just going to keep preserving the artificial strength of the dollar, just the same as if the numeaire were kauri shells, or knotched sandal-wood sticks, or locks from all blonde women in Sweden, or whatever...

Enough for head aches...does anyone else have better insight??


GoldiloxLending Gold#1342697/21/05; 21:54:49

@ Lackluster,

Your lending scenario is a simple one, and if executed as such, might produce your expected results, IF the interest were paid in the same specie.

But let's examine another scenario.

What if, for example, the recipient of your gold loan has contractual rights to pay you interest in 100% FIAT, and does so. At the same time, he sells your gold short, driving the price down on the open market.

Once the POG has dropped a few units, enough to more than cover his interest obligation, he buys it back and closes the contract - returning your less numerically valued gold.

His next move is to borrow again, from you or another willing participant, and repeat the process, thus using your own gold to erode its value over and over again.

It's not unlike the process of shorting stock. The borrower profits by continually debasing the asset and paying it back in devalued form.

GoldiloxFeinstein Response to Kelo vs. New London#1342707/21/05; 22:12:32

Earlier in the week, I posted a response from Senator Boxer on Kelo vs. New London. In fairness to both of my Senators, here is the response from Senator Feinstein:

" I understand your concern about the Court's ruling that
government entities have the right to obtain privately owned land
for public use under the legal principle of "eminent domain."

While I recognize that this decision is controversial and could
possibly open the door for future government seizure of private
property, the judicial branch of the U.S. Government is
independent, and the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in this case must
be adhered to.

However, given the constitutional principles involved in this ruling, I will certainly be monitoring its effects closely. Please know that I will keep your thoughts in mind should the Senate debate this issue in the 109th Congress."

My response to her is:

Senator Feinstein,

Thanks for responding to my concerns, as did Senator Boxer with her cosponsorship of the property rights bill. It may encounter substantial resistance, but at least it will keep the issue in the forefront, where it belongs. I hope you can support it.

The basic issue I see in Kelo vs. New London is not the potential for actual government confiscation, which has always existed, but something far more sinister - active PRIVATE confiscation under the umbrella of government support,

It follows that a profit making entity who employs citizens and/or pays taxes on its profits will generate more tax receipts than private ownership in this scenario. In fact, even small businesses are now vulnerable to a larger business that wants its assets and can demonstrate greater tax revenue potential. This affords a whole new tactic for "hostile take over" action. Why initiate a run on a competitor's stock, when it seems far easier to demonstrate a "publicly beneficial" use for their private assets.


I applaud the local group who is petitioning their planning commission to build a revenue generating public access hotel on the site of one of the Supreme Court Justice's homes. It is truly an appropriate memorial to former private property rights, and as their business plan explains, can only be built on that particular property for proper historical value. I can hardly imagine a greater public good than a profit-generating national monument to the rapidly eroding Constitution.


I guess I get a little touchy when a Senator so closely approaches the goldbug's dreaded "C" word!

Great Albino BatBoilermaker - handing over Barrick and JPM to the Chinese...#1342717/21/05; 22:20:58

You think, Sir, they want to buy a package of POISON?

Get them to BUY Barrick and JPM? Give to them for free, and good riddance!

They wouldn't take 'em even as a gift.

No so dense as the Chermans whose Deutsche Bank bought a Banker's Trust loaded with cr - I mean, loaded with junk.


GoldiloxChina - Airbus#1342727/21/05; 22:40:38

@ Sprout,

The acquisition of Airbus product by China is most demonstrative in that prior to Bush admin pressure for YUAN revaluation, they were using those dollars to purchase Boeing jets and Deere harvesters - only some 14 months ago.

Pyramid schemes (like the "strong dollar" policy) only appear to work during expansionist phases - probably the strongest rational for Sir GS continuing to spoon feed us the "growing economy" pabulum!

We may get the "isolationism" some are demanding, but it won't help solve the debt and deficit issues by a long shot. We should be careful what we ask for!

If the Wal-Mart spigot of "cheepnis" is regulated downward, and the deluge of Asian UST funding dries up, we are in for some very nasty consequences.

SmeagolSssso....#1342737/21/05; 22:52:51

...we comes back from travels to find arrows and dartses flying in the Casstle halls. Ai! Too much for us, so we went outside and sat in the light of the White Face and thought (only a little bit, though) about the peg that we knew would break ssome day.

Ahhh, but now the Chinese fiat-massters have figured out a way to break the peg without breaking it, precious... sso very tricksy-ssmart, the Chinese... so as to ssneak - er, diversify away from the dollar gradually, meandering sslowly to and fro in the currency markets as they please, but over time...time...time (they are sso patient) always farther away from the dollar-tent... verry clever, precious... reminds us a bit of Rothschild's stepping away from the Gold derivatives business a while back, well ahead of what's coming...

...we read ssomething called The Art of War the other night... the Chinese know and do these kinds of things... sss... while Americans do not.


Great Albino BatThis and that....#1342747/21/05; 23:06:00

Allow me another opinion, not opposed to all expressed, just some more opinion:

This move by China, responds to the US gripes regarding the value of the Yuan by saying in effect: "We are not joined to the US at the hip, we are using a basket of world currencies - and THEIR COLLECTIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE DOLLAR, AS WELL AS the Dollar - as our benchmark. If the US Dollar falls against world currencies, and they rise, our Yuan will take into account their rise, and if they rise enough, we rise with them; if the Dollar rises and world currencies fall, we will take that into account and if significant, we let the Yuan fall with them. We are with the majority! Not just with the Dollar. That's the democratic way, isn't it?"

Now what is the US going to gripe about next?


Townie - once again, we cross swords!

You seem to have a phobia towards the idea of lending gold.

EVENTUALLY, dear Towncrier - I mean somewhere down the road, gold is useless unless you have a plan to, at some point, mobilize it to obtain the things that life requires for its sustenance. This seems obvious to me.

At that point, any owner is perfectly justified in lending it - and running the risks that implies, of course - or selling it, or bartering it.

Does lending gold "quash" as you say, the value of gold? Maybe so, but so would selling it to keep you and your loved ones alive. Would YOU hesitate to lend or sell your gold, if feeding your family depended on it? Surely not!

We can't worship gold and regard it as untouchable. At present and always, it should be touched only in dire necessity. But there are always SOME people in dire need.


A final comment tonight: I see Paul van Eeden in his latest essay, affirms that gold produced at a 1.73% annual rate of increase of the total supply (the historic rate), devalues each ounce at that same rate - he mentions 1.73%

I think he is quite mistaken in this point, because of the fact that the decline in gold's marginal utility is practically nil - which in plain English means that if you have 500 ounces, you are quite as happy to have one more, for a total of 501, as you were when you got your first ounce. "Mo' is bettah" = no decline in marginal utility.


GoldiloxThe Art of War#1342757/21/05; 23:15:41

Sir Smeagol -

Perhaps you may already be aware, but the other day I visited the Gutenberg eBook project and found Sun Tzu's volume #1 with a bullet on their hit parade!


As noted once before, gold seems to fare better on the days when goldbugs bicker. I wonder why?

GoldendomeGold mine robbed#1342767/21/05; 23:22:06

Heard on the Air: A Peruvian Gold and Silver mine robbed. (Sorry, I missed the mine name, but was Peruvian owned, I believe they mentioned.)
Two killed and several wounded in the attack by about a dozen bandits. About a dozen dorre(spelling?) bars (Gold and silver mixed)stolen valued at about $1.2 million dollars

GoldendomeGold mine robbed#1342777/22/05; 00:09:03

The Techari Gold mine was robbed in Southern Peru. Also, the mine superintendent and the head of security were kidnapped.
TopazYes melda, He who HAS it.#1342787/22/05; 02:57:43

The rest just Static. (good post m-laure)

Why is it so difficult to contemplate a "no-future" monetary environment in a world awash with future expectations....

...and who HAS it? Well perhaps not in Name but in Possession?

Might the completely logic-defying USD be a clue?

Yes, a specie related Global Dollar could well be the Future.

LacklusterGoldilox@lending gold"#1342797/22/05; 04:52:32

"What if, for example, the recipient of your gold loan has contractual rights to pay you interest in 100% FIAT, and does so."

Well, sure. But as the lender in my hypothetical, I hope I would have some say in what the borrower's obligations to me were! In other words, as the lender, I would negotiate what the borrowers contractual rights were.

I agree with the Great Albino Bat, that is, that gold bought today has to be considered for future "use", or why buy it? What good is a gold standard, without convertability?

GoldiloxLending gold#1342807/22/05; 07:35:58

@ Lackluster,

You can certainly "hope" to have a say in a hypothetical. In the real world, gold clauses are NOT callable in the US statutorily, so at the end of the day, you can repaid in FIAT and lose in court.

mikal@Goldilox#1342817/22/05; 08:18:37

Re: "In the real world gold clauses are not callable..." Good points as usual, but we must keep in mind today's
court system and especially their interpretation of
eminent domain. So if one were in a position to litigate
for redress, could you not consider some of the more "traditional" options- land, servants, animals, jewelry-
and taking a page from the IRS and many police departments, some modern ones- recreational vehicles,
computers, firearms? How 'bout stock certificates? ;)

GoldiloxCommodity Redress vs. payment in monopoly money#1342827/22/05; 08:35:26

@ Mikal,

Exactly the point in my response to Sen Feinstein, but in practice, no one besides the gubmint has yet succeeded in forcing payment in any specie but the TP of the land.

It will be interesting to see if Kelo-New London plays any role, but remember, in order to get Eminent Domain on your side, one must have a few gubmint planners in one's pocket. K-NL should have then drooling, as their "services" may have gained substantial value in the "under the table" market.

I'm waiting to see if Wal-Mart will use this ruling to overrun some of the localities that have voted their expansions down, as they have been spinning their message toward the "public good" for years.

After all, Wal-Mart pays more in taxes (and campaign contributions) than a typical Mom and Pop shop, thus making them better for the "public good".

I wonder if they will one day decide to acquire gold dealers with this tactic.

Cringe with me as I imagine the "Wal-Mart Gold Forum"!

Excuse me while I go wash my hands after typing that!

Clink!Eminent domain#1342837/22/05; 09:02:51

It would appear that the Supreme Court decision has stirred up a significant reaction. This snip is from my local paper :-

The U.S. Supreme Court may be the highest law of the land, but the Oldsmar City Council is writing a dissenting opinion of its own.

The council moved Tuesday night to prevent future councils from going to court to take private property and hand it to private developers.

The council voted 4-1 to give initial approval to an ordinance that would stop future councils from invoking the city's right to take property through eminent domain unless it's for a public use such as a new road.

"It's making sure that future councils can't just arbitrarily do it without bringing it back to the public," said council member Don Bohr. "It's giving the public a little more protection than that lousy Supreme Court ruling."

The issue of eminent domain has stirred controversy since last month's 5-4 Supreme Court decision in the case Kelo vs. City of New London. The ruling said that a city or county may use its power of eminent domain to acquire private property for economic revitalization. The Connecticut city wanted to destroy homes to build an office complex.

Florida's law is stricter than most. It is one of eight states that prevents the use of eminent domain for economic development unless it is to develop a blighted area. However, the definition of blighted depends on who is interpreting it. The Supreme Court ruling has prompted elected officials throughout the state to review their laws and, in Oldsmar's case, tighten them.

"I don't like people's homes being taken or even the possibility of somebody's home being taken by the government or somebody else," said Oldsmar Mayor Jerry Beverland. "It's not right."

end snip.

I think another interesting test of what people really think will be the results of the next elections for City Hall in New London....


Buongiorno!Welcome back,, Sir Smeagol#1342847/22/05; 09:25:05

Sitting in the pale light of the full moon seems to have not harmed your usual clarity of thought. Seems to have helped the rest of us too....last two days have been just great! (IMVHO)

Someone opined that an increase in gold production would reduce the marginal value of gold in general. The figure 1.73 was used. Did I read where Goldfields expects a small decrease in production this year and next? Also seem to remember that, over time, gold production increases about match real world GNP production gains. Therefore it is about a wash, over time, in terms of gold value. But, when fiat production increases at about five or ten times the rate of gold production, then your price rises accordingly, over time, or quickly.

Smeagol, agree with you about the Chinese and their patience...and recall a trip with a fine geologist friend. "Roadside geology" is a passion, and we were discussing some massive erosion along the face of some grand buttes....gosh, sez I, it must have taken ages to accomplish all that, one drop of water at a time. Yes, sez he....but the bulk of it was probably done in about ten minutes, during a rainstorm, when the whole thing came down. And so I think it will be with our fiat/gold game....slowww, maddening Chinese water torture, drop by drop, then whooossshh, all at once and we are either on top of the butte or underneath it.

Survivor@Great Albino Bat - msg#: 134271#1342857/22/05; 09:58:11

GOOD GRIEF SIR! When did this discussion degenerate to the level of RACIAL SLURS?

I cannot believe my eyes!

Perhaps you were temporarily blinded by the glitter of the shiney?

- Survivor

geA Question by Jack Crooks#1342867/22/05; 10:18:34

"What is the basket of currencies that China will supposedly use to fix the yuan's value and how are the currencies within this basket going to be weighted?"

"So far, the basket contents are "secret". The makeup of this basket could be significant to the value of the yuan going forward."

"Here's a scenario: let's say the basket is made up of equal parts $, euro, yen, for example. What if the dollar continues to appreciate against the euro and yen(?)"

"... In this scenario, it would mean the relative value of the yuan declines against the dollar."

GoldiloxSlurs#1342877/22/05; 10:25:31


I agree that GAB let the name-calling go one step too far on that post.

Sadly, it's another step backwards from the political epithets bandied about by a few posters earlier in the week. I'm glad I was too busy with the more pressing matters of a family funeral to get caught up in that exchange.

The last resort of those with frustrated discussion skills is to slander the opponent to divert attention from the topic and related evidence.

A valiant hope is that the discussions stay impersonal and the emotions that drive posters to name calling are held in check to preserve intelligent analysis.

In comparison to most discussion boards, this one has been relatively "epithet-free", reflecting the more mature attitudes of the majority of posters, but unfortunately, not entirely.

GoldiloxYuan Basket#1342887/22/05; 10:32:41

How appropriate in the "Goldilocks" economy, that the basket of Yuan weighting be as "secret" as the admin's energy policy committee and the BLS weighting economic factors.

That way, the currency arbitrage experts can "bet" on the exchange movements in grand casino style.

It may result in further decoupling of direct gold action from the "bugger thy neighbor's currency" wars.

For those who would suppress gold pricing, it is IMPERATIVE that they continue the message that gold is an unnecessary "relic" of previous civilization only sought by "gold nuts" like ourselves.

Clink!Words of wisdom from Dr Faber#1342897/22/05; 11:27:26

Countless speculators and future funds have lost much money this year by betting that the US dollar would depreciate against the Euro and other currencies. The mistake these speculators made was failing to understand that a currency can also depreciate or lose its purchasing power against other assets than just other currencies.

Thus, if all the central banks in the world were to increase their money supply in concert annually by, say, 20%, currencies could remain stable against each other but lose in value against consumer prices, precious metals, commodities, art, real estate, and so on.

I point this out because, although I have been positive for the dollar for the last six months, I remain a firm believer that it will go down or continue to lose its purchasing power, as it has done since the establishment of the Federal Reserve Board in 1913 - however, not necessarily against the Euro.

C! This comes at the end of quite a long retelling of the John Law episode of 1717-20, which should be familiar to most of us. His main point is to distinguish between fiat and things of real value, which also leads to the question - is there a bubble currently in real estate, or just a falling of value of fiat ?

mikalIn memory of forgotten soldiers and forum posters#1342907/22/05; 12:48:46

The Unknown Soldier - Carl Klang
TownCrierSundeck, yuan currency basket#1342917/22/05; 13:19:11

I am hoping that it has dawned on you subsequently to the thought you put forth on the subject in your msg#: 134268 yesterday -- that you were probably making an unnecessarily elaborate mechanism out of China's new basket benchmark. Especially in reference to item #4, it seems unlikely that China will of its own accord have its monetary authorities occupy the primary position of influence in determining the extent of fluctuations for worldly exchange rates among and between the currency components held in its reference basket. Extending that line of thought just a bit further... were this truly to be the situation, then China's monetary authorities would quickly find itself preoccupied in a role somewhat akin to the early days of the IMF, yet they'd be attempting to do so without a formal network of support by agreements among international subscribers as was had by the Fund during the course of its own inevitable failures.


LacklusterGoldilox@lending gold#1342927/22/05; 14:17:38

It may be as you say, that gold loans are not "callable". Please keep in mind, however, the context of my hypothetical. It was in reference to Exponential's message number 134251, where he was discussing a total break down in credit. In that situation, he was proposing to lend gold to help those less fortunate than himself. He was not suggesting that he would do it under current circumstances.

Anyways, why involve the government at all? After all, I am currently able to lend, say, a hammer to my neighbor if he needs one. No one needs to know about such a transaction. Why should I not be able to do the same with gold? I am not talking about indiscriminate lending, as I would not lend out a hammer if I thought I had a poor chance of getting it back, more so for gold. To bring this back to my original thought, it is hard to see how such lending would lower the value of gold, as Towncrier wrote.

TownCrierGAB, I disagree#1342937/22/05; 14:47:31

We are not crossing swords on this -- we are worlds apart. After years and pages of excellence exposition by keen monetary specialists on this very subject of gold leasing, it is apparent that you haven't absorbed a word of it. We can't cross swords if you're not in the arena.

You and Lackluster ought to start with a quick review of Goldilox's 134269 yesterday.

Consider also the implication of Fed Chairman Greenspan's July 24 1998 words to Congress on the regulation of derivatives:

"There is a significant business in oil-based derivatives... but ...private counterparties in oil contracts have virtually no ability to restrict the worldwide supply of this commodity. Nor can private counterparties restrict supplies of gold, another commodity whose derivatives are often traded over-the-counter, where central banks stand ready to lease gold in increasing quantities should the price rise."

You will please note that LEASING (i.e., lending, not selling) is clearly the tool by which the pricing of gold is controlled.

This is in contrast to your utterly bizarre statements regarding the selling of gold. To which I emphatically reply, of COURSE gold is meant to be sold! How else could you or I buy it if it were not for somebody else selling it to help them through their time of need? Savings are stored in your fat season and sold (consumed) in your lean season.

It is precisely through these change-in-ownership transactions that gold's value may be truly revealed.

And it is precisely through gold leasing that the formerly clear concept of ownership is made ambiguous; and with the market's RECOGNITION of gold's value so obscurred, thus the pricing of that value is brought lower than it otherwise would be. That is, for as long as the lending continues on any significant scale.

For your additional consideration, I would be shortchanging this overview if I failed to point out ECB President Wim Duisenberg's direct 'counterpunch' to Greenspan's remarks cited earlier.

In an agreement among 15 European central banks, Duisenberg let us know the following on September 26, 1999:

"In the interest of clarifying their intentions with respect to their gold holdings, the undersigned institutions make the following statement: Gold will remain an important element of global monetary reserves. ... The signatories to this agreement have agreed not to expand their gold leasings and their use of gold futures and options over this period."

As you will recall, although the various European central banks became obvious sellers of gold at this time, the market price of gold nevertheless ended its 20-year bear market and began to climb. The case is thereby made that the simple selling of gold is not a key factor in price determination (seeing that the price went up, not down), whereas it was the imposition of curbs on gold leasing (lending) that instituted this remarkable turn upward in the fortune and general psychology of gold pricing.

Those who properly understand gold lending for what it is have no difficulty seeing that to lend gold is to commit slow suffering suicide by a million paper cuts.


GoldiloxLending gold#1342947/22/05; 14:51:49

@ Lackluster,

Comparing lending gold to lending a hammer may not be a very good analogy, but let's simplify it to that level, just for funzies.

Your neighbor uses the hammer to put a new roof on his house. Then he re-lends the hammer to his brother-in-law to put an addition on his house.

When the hammer returns, which you believe will happen in your hypothetical case, it has a few new nicks and bends in the slightly looser claw, tape around the "slightly splintered" handle, and tar stains from the roof job. None of these completely destroys the hammer's utility, or the neighbor would have been responsible enough to replace it, but have they diminished its value?

Well, if you had been planing to resell it on Ebay, they certainly would, but I also submit that heavy use would render it a little less reliable down the road, and it would now be relagated to "backup" hammer. That would be true if it were my hammer.

From another perspective, one might ask, why does another want to borrow one's gold? Certainly not to let it just sit in a different safe box, as that would encumber the borrower with no chance of return on the "interest". In order to profit from the borrowing, the gold must be put to work, so to say. I submit my earlier description of gold lending details how gold borrowers put it to work - and that is negative for POG.

Another poster recently made a statement about bullion coin conditions not affecting their value. Having recently sold a few, I submit that this is not true! A few scratches do reduce the value of BU coins, even those without collector premium. Letting your neighbor borrow them to use as poker chips is not wise, either.

Essentially one only borrows gold for two reasons. I can think of:

1) to use it up (industrial, jewelry, bullion delivery commitments) and pay it back in kind later - often done by bullion banks
2) to use it in investment algoritms as earlier explained - also done by bullion banks, brokerages, etc.

Why else would someone "borrow" your gold and pay interest rather than just purchasing it outright? I think your "hypothetical" completely ignores the reality of gold lending and replaces it with a scenario wherein no one would want to borrow gold.

GoldiloxMore on forward lending#1342957/22/05; 15:03:09

Forward sales and leasing of gold are undertaken by the owner with the hope that inflation, the "engine of capitalism" will allow it to at the very least maintain its value over the contract life.

Miners also foward sell to gain the necessary capital for their mining operations. They must be careful not to "give away" the mine by commiting all of their product prior to realization. We've seen a couple of them go under for this practice.

From the borrower perspective, he hopes his control of the commodity will allow him to manipulate or at least respond to shorter term price fluctuations and profit from his efforts. Other wise why borrow it?

GoldiloxBone Pile growth#1342967/22/05; 15:09:44

With Ford's announcement today, CBNC says July has already showcased more layoffs than any other month since Jan 01!

The holes in the "steady growth" dyke are spreading. Even if your job doesn't fall to the reaper's ax, does your pension, SSI, or 401K stand much chance of survival? Can GS and co really stem the leaks?

If anyone is listening, this is WHY many here suggest personal savings in hard personally held assets!

When the lemmings start running, best be out of the way!

TownCrierLackluster, lending#1342977/22/05; 15:18:44

The distinction you fail to make in your lent hammer analogy is that the borrowers of the various hammers will likely not be selling them on the open market (which, by contrast WOULD happen with borrowed gold as that is how its value is realized -- through ownership transfer).

To put a finer point on it, having borrowed your hammer, the borrower himself will have no need to visit the hardware store to buy a hammer of his own, and thus with your hammer lending efforts, you've marginally attenuated the demand for hammers from reaching a true price-clearing expression in the marketplace.

When you combine these two factors in the case of gold lending, you've effectively compounded these two market-factor negatives. By lending gold you have shunted demand for gold away from the market by satisfying it off-market, while at the same time your gold becomes added to the traditional supply side of the market. Thus the pricing mechanism is made heavy on supply and light on demand, causing the clearing price of gold to drift lower for decades while the scheme runs its course of deprciation like any other lendable paper money timeline.

As alluded to in the previous post, thankfully the error of those ways have been recognized and measures are being taken by some to abolish this means of oppression upon the gold savers of the world, the salt of the earth.


BoilermakerMK's msg#: 134261 - Reserves vs Reval.#1342987/22/05; 15:43:40

I'm not sure what MK was asking about but here's what I think anyway.
China's 2% revaluation will not have a great impact on trade. 2% won't change many purchasing decisions and it will be partially offset by the reduced cost (vis-avis the $) of imported raw materials such as oil.

Their reserves will still be growing, However, it's likely that their new reserve mix will reflect the same currency basket that will be used to manage the Yuan. Now, if we assume that China has been accumulating $ in propotion to their previous 100% peg with gold, then any deviation from this path must cause two effects. First will be that increases to their future reserve balances will reflect the "basket formula", ie., fewer $ and more other currencies. Secondly, their existing reserves of $ should be rebalanced as well to reflect the new formula. This reserve restructuring, forwards and backwards, will create a dearth of $ demand.

BoilermakerMajor screwup in last post#1342997/22/05; 15:47:36

"Now, if we assume that China has been accumulating $ in propotion to their previous 100% peg with gold,"

Should be "Now, if we assume that China has been accumulating $ in propotion to their previous 100% peg with the $,

GoldiloxChina Peg#1343007/22/05; 15:50:08

@ BM,

Your quote: "Now, if we assume that China has been accumulating $ in propotion to their previous 100% peg with gold"

confuses me. When was China's currency pegged 100% to gold?

I thought it was pegged to the US dollar.

SundeckYuan basket#1343017/22/05; 16:01:24

@TownCrier #134291

Ahhhh! yes, Sir TC...

As I was lying in bed last night, my mind was running over what I had writtten and I was not at all pleased...

Alas, the cyber-eraser was nowhere to be found, and when I arose this morning I see that my hastily-constructed thoughts have been exposed for what they are...

Well done Sir TC...but I don't have time to ponder further...I am off to Sydney for a grandson's 13th birthday..oh to be young again with a golden future...


spotlightReserve currency status#1343027/22/05; 16:16:09

Re: Your "hammer" example: I think you nailed it.

Now, on another subject:

Could you please address the potential involved in the fact that China is the first major trading partner to abandon the dollar as the reserve currency.

Is there a likelihood that other nations may also abandon the dollar? What are the implications for the future of the US economy and its citizens? So far I have seen nothing mentioned anywhere about the possible dire prospects that may confront us shortly.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1343037/22/05; 16:18:33">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Friday Market Excerpts

July 22 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures fell Friday, but prices for the precious metal ended the week higher by close to 1% after having rallied by nearly $6 over the past two sessions.

Investors said they expected China's revaluation of the yuan to increase demand for dollar-denominated commodities.

Moreover, Thursday's bombing incidents in London made financial markets jittery, helping strengthen demand for precious metals.

At week's end, investors were "in denial over [Thursday's] devaluation of the U.S. dollar by the People's Bank of China," said Ned Schmidt, editor of the Value View Gold Report.

"With China in the process of ascending to the top levels of the global monetary pyramid, the U.S. dollar will continue fading in importance," he said. And a weaker dollar usually spurs investment demand for gold, which is traded in dollars.

All in all, "investors should use these quiet periods of summer, when gold and silver prices are weak, to buy," Schmidt said.

COMEX August gold contracts closed at $425.10, down 60 cents for the session.

For the week, prices for the contract climbed $3.80, or 0.9%. They closed on Thursday at their highest level since July 12.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

GoldiloxPlame Investigation#1343047/22/05; 16:21:46

The joint policy committee of both houses is interviewing four retired CIA analysts on C-SPAN:

They're currently talking about Wilson's "cover story" that the Republicans denied. Intelligence operatives use cover stories all the time to disguise their real aganda and protect the intelligence service, and none of them find anything unusual about this cover, as it is SOP.

The Intelligence services were set up to protect the country, not the party in power. These investigations are very revealing as to how deep the abuse runs, and the officers under oath are maintaining that this action totally denigrates the ability of the services to do their job and risks the security of their officers.

The opinion of the officers is that a leak of this sort in higher eschalons is much more damaging to the oversall intel operations than a typical low level leak just do to its world wide ramifications and the message it sends to all cooperating agents around the world thay their security is not important.

A lower level officer would be dealt with, the damage control assessed, and the system integrity would remain intact. Not so when every political effort is made to protect the higher eschalon offender, and the case officers' anonymity is considered nothing more than political collateral.

Two of the officers mentioned that although they had offices in Langley, they were considered covert ops as soon as they left the building, as was Valerie Plame. That is why she held a cover position with an agency "company", whose entire identity has now been compromised. This entire corporation must now be disbanded and replaced.

Lacklustergoldhammer#1343057/22/05; 16:50:43

"Essentially one only borrows gold for two reasons. I can think of:

1) to use it up (industrial, jewelry, bullion delivery commitments) and pay it back in kind later - often done by bullion banks
2) to use it in investment algoritms as earlier explained - also done by bullion banks, brokerages, etc."

Could not one lend gold to be used as capital?

My whole point of the hammer analogy was not to compare hammers to gold, but how one can lend things to others without the Government having to know about it.

TownCrierspotlight, reserve currency status#1343067/22/05; 16:52:09

At the present time, you are overstating the meaning of China's peg relaxation. They have merely shifted from a hard peg (fixed convertibility with the dollar) to more of a crawling peg in which an unspecified basket of currencies shall serve as a target, or as a guideline for the rate of crawl. This is not to say that China has abandoned the dollar as reserve currency. All indications are that China remains a major holder of dollars/bonds, and the sticky wicket for China is in finding a way to attain a real value from that dollar-based reserve pile and without precipitating a depreciation of same in the process. As said before, this is where the concept of mark-to-market gold reserves in a physical-only "free gold" pricing paradigm has the potential to maintain balance sheet equilibrium for the course of the transition on such a day that the dollar might, in fact, be abandoned as a reserve asset as you suggest is its fate.

Consequences for the U.S. and its citizens would be like those experiences of any other country that underwent a profound depreciation of their monetary unit. Certainly not the end of the world, but adjustments and hardships will occur and based on the particular assortment of a person's physical and paper assets, some people will fare better than others as bank accounts lose purchasing power while price and wage levels climb in response to the monetary depreciation.


Cavan ManCLINKster...#1343077/22/05; 17:04:03

You missed the most important part of the true story. All governments continue to make the same mistakes of commission and omission. They have NO new ideas and are quick to overreact to almost anything. There is danger here.....CM

"As confidence in paper money was waning, the price of land and gold soared. This forced Law, who still enjoyed the backing of the regent, to take extraordinary measures. He prevented people from turning back to gold by proclaiming that henceforth only banknotes were legal tender. (By then the Banque Generale had practically no gold left.)

Thus, payments in gold and silver above 100 francs were prohibited; in addition, the ownership of gold exceeding 500 livres in value was declared illegal.

(Severe penalties were imposed on people who hoarded gold. To enforce this most blatant expropriation, Law encouraged the public to turn informer by handing out large rewards to those who assisted in the discovery of gold, which was then confiscated.)"

R Powellthe metal of the moon#1343087/22/05; 17:14:55

This is in pdf form
happy weekend...!!!!

GoldiloxGold Capital#1343097/22/05; 18:57:34

@ Lackluster,

You may be correct in thory, but is someone borrowing gold as capital not going to need to turn it into FIAT at some point in the algorithm?

There are few, if any, transaction circles that would use gold exclusively in place of FIAT.

I'm sure a few exceptions could be found, but they do not refute the notion that the lion's share of gold "borrowers" are on the short side of the gold equation.

GoldiloxSilver Inst article#1343107/22/05; 18:59:38

Thank, Rich!


Cometose MK : Things are not always as they seem#1343117/22/05; 19:34:47

The last time we spoke , I was on my deck and speaking to you from winter...

From my neighbor hood from which I moved ................
down the street into a new unoccupied dwelling adjacent to the golf course in CARBONDALE February .....

NO BASEMENT THIS TIME ...........(reminisent of GOLDILOX AND THE THREE BEARS/ watch the symbolism)

I've just been standing on my new front deck and have had a deja vu from the last house.............this is a relatively high end neighborhood ......which I cannot yet afford (waiting for my gold ship to come in; not really ......just working my bottom off at two jobs and keeping my nose to the grindstone re: the markets) ....

my DEJA VU that there are skunks harboring here to this foundation 's cool and burrowed under as there also were skunks burrowed under the foundation of the last REAL ESTATE PROSPECT(literally ) only a block away ...


I didn't get to the faux pas in the construction of these pitiful victorian shanti's slapped together in a wisp of a witch's broom BANKER MEETS CONTRACTOR.......




TopazAg @ RPowell#1343127/22/05; 20:01:46

G'day Rich .....always good to see your handle.

I put up a Chart the other day that, whilst concurring with the SI that Ag and Au are both in an upswing, they do exhibit contrary recent behaviour on a Mth x Mth basis ...linked to Comex delivery ....(futuresource is down at present so I can't repeat the effort)

With all this talk of Free-range Renminbi, it seems to me if China was really peeved, they could withhold Ag Supply, putting pussy well and truly amongst the pigeons.

Still next week to get through on July Ag ...we watch!

Lacklustergold theory#1343137/22/05; 20:09:20

Goldilox, yes, I was speaking theoretically. Many do on this forum, no? Is not the concept of "freegold" but a theory? I think it odd that many find the idea of gold regaining some kind of monetary status harder to swallow than this vague "freegold" idea. I have tried to understand "freegold", but can't make head nor tail of it. However, the idea that someday, gold might become money again seems such a simple concept. After all, it was money before, in living menory, even. Most people still associate gold with wealth, even now.

I have read on this forum many times that "all paper will burn" (my apologies, I don't remember who posted it). What does this mean, do you suppose? It seems to me that people will have reason to begin to distrust all FIAT money (I capitalized FIAT, because you seem so fond of doing so!) After all, the US dollar is backed by the "full faith and credit of the U.S." This is beginning to mean less with each passing day.

My apologies, my mind is wandering, and I don't remember where I was headed with that.

Godd night

R PowellChinese currency#1343147/22/05; 20:24:41

happy weekend
GoldiloxGold loans and money#1343157/22/05; 20:27:00

@ Lackluster,

I never saw any reference to gold as money in your hypothetical. I was talking of gold loans in the cuurent fiat environment, not in a "gold as money" scenario.

If somehow we return to a gold as legal tender state, your scenario works as simply as any current loan, but not unless we do.


TownCrierLackluster, "freegold"#1343167/22/05; 20:35:31

It might help you decipher the meaning if you try to think of "freegold" as a short-hand or abreviated jargon term for the concept of a gold pricing regime that is no longer influenced by UNallocated gold. That is to say, it is "free" of the price-depressive influence of the artificial gold supply.

Hope this helps you and others grasp what is meant. It's all about the essence of the pricing regime.


exponentialChina revaluation#1343177/22/05; 21:57:03

The link is to a four-art series by Henry C. K. Liu. Here are a couple of snips from part two:

"The Mexican financial crisis of 1982 set the pattern for subsequent financial crises around the world. For that reason, a thorough understanding of the Mexican financial crisis is necessary to understand what lies in wait for China...

"Neo-liberalism is a socio-economic-political ideology that rejects government intervention in the economy, focusing instead on achieving socio-economic progress through free markets, with emphasis on raising national income as measure by gross domestic product (GDP) statistics. Issues such as income-disparity, impaired national sovereignty, social injustice and environmental damage are considered necessary prices to pay for global prosperity. It is an ideology that is controversial even if successful, but it is a bankrupt ideology that fails even to deliver the prosperity it promises. The record of the past three decades shows that neo-liberal ideology brought devastation to every economy it invaded. China seems to be heading along a similar path."


My comment: in the long-term strategic struggle between China and the United States, everybody seems to assume that China is winning. I wouldn't be too sure. Henry Liu says China is falling into a trap. It's not over till it's over.

exponentialtypo#1343187/22/05; 21:58:29

a four-part series, not four-art...
GoldiloxHenry Liu article#1343197/22/05; 23:27:37

@ Exponential,

So it remains to be seen who will completely screw things up first?

The neo-liberals that aren't really liberal, or the neo-conservatives that aren't really conservative?

Is "bugger-thy-neighbor's currency" just a smoke screen for "bugger thy neighbor's civilization"?

At some point does it degrade to "bugger thy neighbor's planet"?

If there are intelligent life forms beyond this planet, it would follow that this cultural trait of humankind is not particularly appealing to them.

Felix the CatAbout Chinese currency#1343247/23/05; 12:22:43

The Bankers of HK said, the saving of RMB is increased few times in these few days (The max was about RMB10 mil per day) but we do see it still stays hard as iron at +2% level that means....?

GoldiloxShadow Market Statistcs#1343257/23/05; 13:04:29

Hour two of Puplava's FSN today welcomes John Williams, an economics consultant who explain the statistics we see today that suggest low inflation, low unemployment and low budget deficits. He details thte changes in reporting that have been implemented during Sir AG's tenure to "massage" the economic news.

The manipulations are, by corporate standards, out and out fraud, but as they are committed by government, they are just "fiduciary adjustment", hedonics, etc.

As he says, there may not be much one can do about it, but knowing it certainly assists intelligent decisions in protecting one's personal wealth.

Very good listen for anyone interested in HOW the stats can be so far from anything approaching reality.


Cavan ManLondon "Bobbies" Make Mistake @ CLINKster#1343267/23/05; 13:26:08

This is not Monty Python lads and lassies. What did I say yesterday about governments making mistakes, overreacting? If I were a law abiding Arab or any one of "color", I'd be worried.

Stockwell shooting was mistake, says Met
By Philippe Naughton, Times Online

The man shot dead by police at Stockwell Underground station yesterday morning had nothing to do with Thursday's abortive London bomb attacks, Scotland Yard said tonight.

According to witnesses, the man was shot five times at close range after being chased onto a Northern Line train at the South London station at around 10am. Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, said later that the man was directly connected to the bungled bombings of three Tube trains and a London bus the day before.

The Met said in a statement this afternoon: "We believe we now know the identity of the man shot at Stockwell Underground station by police on Friday 22nd July 2005, although he is still subject to formal identification.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of Thursday 21st July 2005. For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets.

"The man emerged from a block of flats in the Stockwell area that were under police surveillance as part of the investigation into the incidents on
Thursday 21st July. He was then followed by surveillance officers to the Underground station. His clothing and behaviour added to their suspicions.

"The circumstances that led to the man's death are being investigated by officers from the MPS [Metropolitan Police Service] Directorate of Professional Standards, and will be referred to the IPCC [Independent Police Complaints Commission] in due course."

The shooting had been graphically described by a series of witnesses. One passenger on the train, Mark Whitby, said shortly afterwards: "As the man got on the train I looked at his face. He looked from left to right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, like a cornered fox. He looked absolutely petrified.

"He sort of tripped but they were hotly pursuing him and couldn't have been more than two or three feet behind him at this time. They unloaded five shots into him. I saw it. He's dead, five shots, he's dead."

Cavan ManThinking about the Patriot Act....#1343277/23/05; 13:34:18 light of this poor SOB being gunned down in London. What if you are a law abiding US citizen though, perhaps a dissenter to the "march of folly" so well documented? What if your life is abruptly ended with a military flight to a detention center...somewhere? So much for rhetoric and please be assured I have been a genuine patriot (not the vicarious sort so popular) for MANY years. Sadly....CM
Cavan ManLance, YOU ARE THE MAN#1343287/23/05; 13:35:45

St. Etienne, France (Sports Network) - American Lance Armstrong captured the 20th and penultimate stage of the Tour De France on Saturday, guaranteeing an unprecedented seventh consecutive title.

Armstrong, who won his first stage of the 2005 race, easily finished ahead of Germany's Jan Ullrich in a time of 1:11:45 after the grueling 34.5 mile time trial around St. Ettienne. Ullrich's teammate Alexander Vinokourov of Kazakhstan finished third. The stage win was the 22nd of Armstrong's career. "I wanted to go as hard as I could," said Armstrong, who extended his comfortable lead to 4:40 ahead of Ivan Basso of Italy. Armstrong's longtime nemesis Ullrich is third overall at 6:21. Saturday's time trial win sets Armstrong up for an emotional victory ride on the last leg into Paris, where the 92nd Tour de France will conclude on Sunday with a 90.5 mile trek ending on the Champs-Elysees. It is then Armstrong, 33, will retire wearing the famed "maillot jaune" as the winner for a seventh, and final, time.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A world of gold at your fingertips...#1343297/23/05; 13:36:05">gold -- a global calling card
Cavan ManAgain on the Patriot Act.....#1343307/23/05; 13:37:06

I was ambivalent until the death of an innocent man at the hands of London police. BALANCE!
mikalYuan revaluation gaining speed#1343317/23/05; 13:45:01

Yuan Move an "Initial" Step- PBOC Head - Scott Hillis - Reuters - July 23, 2005
mikalThe Curtain Rises#1343327/23/05; 18:04:27

Hollywood Coincidence? - Anthony Wile - FMNN - July 23, 2005
Wile relates compelling impressions after recent viewings of Cinderella Man and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The message of The Great Depression alone is significant and a warning to the unprepared and prepared alike. I've got my "golden ticket" and pray you do also.
I also heard a media report recently lauding Hollywood's reduced reliance on violence and violent themes, speculating that the Iraq war had a role to play.

Cavan ManHis dog wasn't in this fight....#1343337/23/05; 18:36:06

July 24, 2005
Britian Says Man Killed by Police Had No Tie to Bombings yours? (Rationalize/spin this!)

LONDON, July 23 - Scotland Yard admitted Saturday that a man police officers gunned down at point-blank range in front of horrified subway passengers on Friday had nothing to do with the investigation into the bombing attacks here.

The man was identified by police as Jean Charles de Menezes, a 27-year-old Brazilian, described by officers as an electrician on his way to work. "He was not connected to incidents in central London on 21st July, 2005, in which four explosive devices were partly detonated," a police statement said.

mikalThe best medicine: laughter and HE who laughs last#1343347/23/05; 19:24:41 0506190012jun19,0,1185180.story 0506190012jun19,0,1185180.story Taking medicine need not be bitter.
The following short descriptive summary of the main
economic risk to the world leaves a great deal out, but
it's BLUNT and almost logical. Like the movies playing in theatres it appeals to emotions. Why prescribe the seemingly impossible, as is done in the
last paragraph? It's all about "rethinking" some things, like GOLD- and FEELING emotions such as fear and compassion.

Rethinking Globalization:
How Much Longer Can the U.S. Keep Borrowing?
By Clyde Prestowicz - Chicago Tribune -07-19-05 - Excerpt:
"With the Internet and FedEx, a new wave of globalization has made most of these assumptions obsolete. Capital moves instantly around the world at the click of a mouse. Technology goes where it finds smart people and financial incentives. And people move quite easily and almost instantly in the virtual world of call centers and business processing offshore. On top of this is a unique aspect of these 3 billion new participants. Most are poor and unskilled as expected. But 10 percent of that 3 billion, which results in a number larger than the population of the United States, have the unexpected combination of the highest skill levels with the lowest wages. The new globalization puts this population effectively in the next cubicle, and its ticket to the good life is to combine these low-cost skills with the mobile technology, capital and virtual workplace to produce more U.S.-bound exports financed by more U.S. borrowing from China and Japan. In theory, of course, as these new participants sell more, their wages will rise and they will consume more, including more U.S.-made goods and services. So everyone will win. But that's where the problem is. It hasn't yet happened that way. Japan and the Asian tigers have not become net consumers as they have gotten rich. Just as the U.S. structure of consumption is hard-wired, so is the strategic trade structure of export-led growth.
In the face of this, dollar devaluation and other conventional nostrums such as more free-trade agreements will not prevent the global economy from eventually collapsing under a huge burden of American debt. Before it does so, we need to redesign globalization by enforcing World Trade Organization rules to end the practices of strategic trade, reducing U.S. consumption below U.S. income, and making an Apollo Project-like commitment to U.S. energy independence."
[Link provided by GATA]

Golden LionheartRIP#1343357/23/05; 19:27:26

Hasta la Vista GAB!
Ned@ Cavan Man#1343367/23/05; 20:09:10

Difficult to apologize to a dead man.
Cavan Man@NED#1343377/23/05; 20:20:52

I'm lucky; nobody is looking for an Irishman with a red nose.
Ned@ Cavan Man#1343387/23/05; 20:26:34

Just read the rest of the "innocent man" posts.

Why is this guy, a Brazilian electrician, being chased and pursued. Why is he tripping and being cornered? Why is he looking petrified?

There are bombs and partially detonated bombs and mayhem and insanity running rampant and there's probably a zillion cops and this guy, albeit Brazilian, starts running to evade/avoid the police.

Wouldn't be my first choice.

I am not suggesting that the police made a 'good' error but what was the guy thinking?

exponentialthe probability that a node has k connections attached to it#1343397/23/05; 21:42:37

The biosphere contains many scale-free networks. Prominent examples are provided by the functional networks within the human brain. Scientists at the Max Planck Institute of Colloids and Interfaces have discovered that activity patterns in such biomimetic networks have unusual dynamic properties, which are controlled by a few, highly connected nodes. As a result, ordered activity patterns are very robust against random perturbations but rather sensitive to selective perturbations. Disordered patterns, on the other hand, decay very fast and relax towards an ordered pattern even if the network becomes infinitely large. In addition, these scale-free networks can also be used to store and retrieve a large number of fixed patterns (PNAS, Advanced Online Publication, 8 July 2005).
Dollar Bill.,.#1343407/23/05; 22:32:38

A link last week was to a china/russia public statement talking frankly about the nwo.
In looking at the basket of currencies issue, I would guess that perhaps there is going to be a road we travel where currencies are priced by the big 8 powers and the currency control will be masked by the big players haveing a -basket-. Wouldnt they need that level of control since we are faced with cascadeing derivitive destruction domino style? Since, with nwo approval, the fiat boys could, if needed, not that I know how the derivitive world is structured or -controlled(?), they could just support any level of derivitive accident perhaps? Or parts of it they thought they needed to?
How in the world did enron and worldcom and that italian company and on and on, all those big money companies fail, and there are no stories of financial ruin on a vast scale written? Surely regular folks took a beating, but how did they handle the financial ripple effects?
Is anyone, has anyone, written a book on this yet?

Despite troublesome issues that seem real, like taiwan, I think, or, I imagine, that they are really quite on board the same playbook and we are spun.

The nwo next step would be what?
global currency control, I would guess, of course I personally, and others must think it has manipulated already to quite an extent.
I dont see china as recklessly careening out of orbit, I think they see, or the real TOP guys in china see, thier lot is cast with the nwo, and although they have some room to be all nationalistic, they will not exceed nwo boundries.

Since gm is on the roaps in spite of selling cars at record levels, if israel attacks iran, oil goes to where, and for how long.....does this tip the risk models off thier foundations? Do we have only weeks before this hits?
Are we all supposed to act, or is the govt supposed to act surprised when this happens? Israel has vitually promised this action. europe was unsuccessful at changeing irans mind, and iran restricted who could run for office so only -hard liners- whatever the heck that really means, are in power now there, are they prepping for the attack by stacking thier own elected govt with war freaks?
Unfortunatly, I can only guess yes.
Surely the nwo is prepping for this, is the baskets part of this?

PRITCHOFrom Richard Russell - - - - Latest Comments - - -#1343417/24/05; 00:19:47

Big Julie lays it on the line. Ordinarily, I wouldn't include the kind of scare-piece that you see below. But Julian Robertson is a legendary trader, and if this is what he thinks, well, it's worth at least listening to. Sure, I call it a scare-piece. But supposing, just supposing, Mr. Robertson is right. He's been right before, you know. You don't make tens of millions of dollars in this business by being stupid.

Legendary Funds Manager Predicts Utter Global Collapse Stemming From Bursting of Property Bubble

Blames Bush-Cheney "regime"

In a recent interview on CNBC with Ron Insana, one of the "old-timer" funds manager, Julian Robertson, predicted "utter global collapse" as a consequence of the bursting of the world-wide property bubble.

Often called "Never Been Wrong Robertson", the former head of Tiger Management (once the largest hedge fund in the world), is extremely worried about the speculative bubble in real estate.

Specifically, he is very worried about a world that is sustained by American consumer spending which is in turn 1/4 sustained by a property bubble. He predicts that 20 million people could lose their homes once the property bubble bursts.

Even more worrisome, he thinks central banks around the globe out of desperation will try to re-inflate the world economy with more liquidity that will create an inflationary spiral unseen in the economic history of mankind.

"Where does it end?", Insana asked Robertson. "Utter global collapse," he answered. But not just economic collapse ... collapse of epic proportions. Collapse and disintegration of all infrastructure, including government. Inflation will run into the double and triple digits. "Food production will fall. People will be carrying around U.S. dollars in wheelbarrows like Germany," he said.

There will be "total collapse of public infrastructure. Total collapse of medical care systems. All public pension plans, Social Security will collapse. All corporate pension plans will collapse."

"The American consumer is effectively now supporting the rest of the planet," he continued. "Consumption rates in all other nations are falling, have fallen to the point that the tax revenues to governments, that the business and industries those nation states are providing is now a net negative number relative to total debt service and public cost, that this exists in virtually every nation state on the planet now."

And for much of this "doom", interestingly, he blames the Bush-Cheney "regime".

"They have now consolidated power and money on the planet to the maximum extent possible. The planet's net liquidity, that is its, net free cash flow. Is now a negative number. The planet is not simply sinking into a sea of red ink; it is already sunk. The people just don't realize it yet," he said.

According to Robertson, "the Bush-Cheney regime is preparing the nation for transition from democracy into dictatorship because a dictatorship will be necessary to control, in 5 years time, food and water riots." He said "the federal government, that part of Patriot II Act, the internal exile, that the government is going to have to build now huge detention compounds on federal lands, probably in the West where the land is available, to potentially house 50 million or more citizens that will be in financial ruin."

In 10 years time, whoever is left will be effectively starting again, he said.

"More importantly, and I'm trying to think how we imply this or how we express this to the people, what extraordinary times we are living in and how the destruction of the planet has been engineered by the Bushonian Cabal from 1980 to 1992, and then from 2001 to present, which has effectively destroyed the economic liquidity of the planet," he said.

Robertson ended the interview by saying that he hopes he is not alive to see this.

"The lucky ones are the ones who are my age now," he said

GoldiloxBig Julie#1343427/24/05; 02:24:11

@ Pritcho,

Isn't Big Julie that cat from Brando's "Guys and Dolls" who sprung up and "testified his sins" for the Salvation Army doll?

Or was he from Sinatra's copycat movie "Robin and the Seven Hoods"?

Six of one . . . the celluloid all runs together after so many hours of AMC and TCM.

No doubt a RE collapse would have tremendously harsher and wider reaching consequences than the Y2K/NASDOG "trial run" at the turn of the Century. While Sir AG reminds us ad nauseam that RE is a local phenomenon, parcels are annually commanding 20-30% more TP everywhere from Anchorage to the Everglade swamps - a tough act to maintain with the bone pile growing.

Seriously, whether the Bush Gang is acting independently or as part of the grander NWO scheme oft' mentioned by $ Bill and others, it is hard not to notice that the world economy is on a fast track to Weimarsville. The ENRON-BANKSTER-SPOOK-POLITICIAN types are lining their Caribbean pockets to pay their exit fares. If Hitler was the "strong leader - solution" for Germany's post-WWI woes, just imagine the "solution" should the US$-reserve economy experience a similar implosion.

TopazBig Julie?#1343437/24/05; 06:24:12

Vaguely recollect BJ in a movie to do with Eric von Zipper ...was it one of the "Gidgets"??

Our (OZ) Prime Minister is looking increasingly out of his depth on the world stage and looks ill equipped to "cope" when his "turn" comes.
Waiting in the wings is the "Opposition Leader" ...a NWO wannabe from way back he COULD cut the mustard when called upon to play the part!

Sadly, no-one in Politics anywhere even closely resembles a true Candidate to drive an alternate agenda.

PRITCHORe Big Julie - - - - - #1343447/24/05; 08:16:02

I'd never heard of him until I read Russells' piece. Sounds like a realist -he nailed whats happening fair & square & called it as he saw it. Not enough of that.

I'ts late here sun night - - Gata go

CometoseLatest (GOLD )Volatility analysis by Hamilton#1343457/24/05; 11:13:36

This is a pretty interesing article on the backdrop of Phase 2 , Yuan Revaluation and ENDEMIC Trade Deficit problem.......

Looks like the lowest volatility scenario since in GOLD since $325 was taken out .

exponentialcomments supposedly made by Julian Robertson#1343467/24/05; 11:28:14

This nonsense was debunked as soon as it appeared, two months ago. A poster to Roger Nusbaum's blog said this:

"I watched both parts on the Insana interview. Many of the comments regarding this interview are entirely self serving propaganda.

"Julian states a concern for the global economy due to the fact that the world economy is driven in large part by American consumption. He feels that the American consumer is out of gas and that many people may be at risk of loosing their home.

"This is ALL he says. All of the other crap written by this fool Al Martin and all others of his ilk is complete hog wash.

"By the way, these few comments are from a guy who closed all of his hedge funds 5 years ago because he was under performing all of the indexes and completely frustrated with his failure to understand what was happening with the economy at the time. He should hardly be considered the Oracle of the world's economic future."

Dollar Bill.,.#1343477/24/05; 11:58:13

could they, um, oh, i dont know, change mortgage rules?
just send people checks? money rain? some bereneke spikot opening? if the nwo is ok with it, what cannot be done?
I mean precisely. exactly. what can they and what can they not do? that is a good area to look at, and I am.....I do not blame the fellow below for his sane opinions, but if the rules are changed and we havent been told, we have to figure it out ourselves or just watch as they happen when they do.

There is a certain...large? part of just winging it by the nwo guys, but maybe less than I am guessing.
With the euro hobbled, and with the us willing to walk the nwo route towards un control, if things change at the un, then dont the other countries have little choice but to try to go along for thier own advantage and because the govts are faced with the option spoken below.
How will the scenario listed below happen if the guys at the top decide it wont?
THier methods we dont know, but they must have some ideas and plans.
Bird flu could take the whole shebang down, and so could so called terrorists. Who would be more accurately described as religious church state believers. Muslim style.
Gold is not just for a store of value, but could be a really great investment if these nwo boys lose control.
Am I just hopeing that the nwo has plans? Yup.
I like to sleep at night and think my boys have a future in a non chaos.
Plus, as we have seen since 99, the price is rising.

mikalDU dusting the planet#1343497/24/05; 13:00:55 Cynicism and the Use of Depleted Uranium by Kim Hawkins and Robert Shetterly
CometoseExponential / perhaps watching too much tv/science fiction but:::::#1343517/24/05; 14:31:28

It has just appeared on the K discussion forum that something of Biblical proportions maybe happening in CHINA .....

Re : Bird Flu Epidemic ..........121 dead
Families of victims sent to Quarantine Compounds....

Is is Bird Flu ...................

Or is it BIO warfare ..........maybe the NWO...

intimidation tactics...

Cavan ManCometose#1343537/24/05; 16:32:38

On the mark....two types of beings: physical and spirit; two types further...good and evil. That's the entire creation. Why don't we ever hear about those tens of millions of Russian Orthodox eliminated under Stalin?
GoldiloxOn the Mark?#1343547/24/05; 18:48:19

No doubt Stalin was a mass murderer, but his victims were selected by the paranoia of his politics, not really focused on select religions. Even his own Russian aerospace scientists were not immune to the gulag and the secret police. The same indigenous genocide was going on concurrently by the rulers in China and in South America by the IMF-CIA controllers - aided by the second generation Nazis they conveniently let escape from post-war Germany. The 20th Century has been labeled the "century of genocide", as nearly 10% of the world's people were butchered in various wars, starvation, new diseases, and ethnic purges.

Sadly, the murderous message of anti-semitism has been adopted by many of the expansionist zealots in both hemispheres, simply because it fits their agenda of always having a scapegoat to empower their "divide and conquer" strategy. The "rulers" of this planet have demonstrated over and over again that they care not for human life, be it Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Shintoist, Humanist, or any other belief if it stands in the way of their domination.

I have a prized book in my collection by Henry Ford I, entitled "The International Jew, the World's Foremost Problem." Was Henry anti-semitic? I used to think so, but further investigation has shown me that this might not be the case. Back in 1920, he saw a movement of international bankers supporting and profiting from both sides of the WWI conflict, and tried to warn people of this dire situation. Since these bankers called themselves "Jews", he was immediately labeled anti-semitic, and ignored. Had they labeled themselves differently, he might have changed the title, but not the theme. He saw that these so-called "jews" backed the corporate tyranny of Fascism and cared nothing for the European Jewry they scapegoated, and post WWII, many believe, they have just moved their operations to more fertile ground.

The living principles and miraculous stories attributed to the character "Jesus" are of themselves, a pretty reasonable design for a better society, but never practiced by political leaders who believe "MIGHT makes RIGHT." Most other religions, including Islam, also preach these principles, but one would never know it by what the Media tells us is the message of the politically radical Islamists. Nor do the common folk of Iraq believe that the Christians and Jews care anything for the principles of life when their only experience of the West is air raids, computer-guided bombs, and indiscriminate leveling of their cities to "take out" a puppet tyrant that the West put empowered in the first place.

The second easiest social structure to manipulate has been the "coin of the realm", as the banksters have essentially absconded with the treasuries of most nations and left them completely subservient to the banks' credit rules.

A deeper investigation into US Presidential assassinations will demonstrate some pretty strong bank/PM-related policies by each of the victims. Lincoln, the first to be assassinated, reinstituted the Bank of the US, making it harder for the private banks to "profit" from the US Civil War. McKinley, on the other hand, opposed Bryan and his silver advocates, preferring gold as the official backing for the US $. The latest, of course, was JFK, who opposed the coming abandonment of silver coinage. It's interesting that the Kennedy half-dollar was degraded by 40% in only its second year of issue, and soon after was replaced by "sandwich industrial metal", along with all US coinage.

I don't really know if this NWO is empowered by aliens, the Devil, or just a very powerful class of human rulers who look upon their minions as "cannon fodder", but its evolution is pretty ugly in all three scenarios.

The tactic seems to be to keep the people squabbling over religion and ideologies, while TPTB continue their economic domination and outright plunder.

MKAll#1343557/24/05; 18:52:49

There's only so much an individual can take.

Let me remind you that the posting has to at least be associated with business, the financial markets and economics.

Somebody needs to tell Bill Murphy that the real conspiracy is not what he thinks. The real center of the conspiracy is not Washington, New York or even London. In reality, it has to do with a flying disk parked discretely in Colorado's San Luis Valley. If not for that, and the technologies employed therewith, the price of gold would approach a figure in the $11,450 range.


Spare me the brain cells. With everything that's going on in the world of money and gold is the best we can do a discussion on UFO's?

Sometimes I wonder why I sponsor this discussion group.

Sleep well, my friends.

PO'd and going back to the Discovery channel, and a book on the nature of Collapse which I've been working through over the past several days.

A very intelligent friend of mine, witnessing the proliferation of blogs, web sites, discussion groups on everything imaginable and all the rest, asked me if I really believed that the public deserved "public access."

I told him I had to think about that.

I'm putting this up. Maybe if I cool down with the monsoons now rolling over Colorado, I'll take it down.

PRITCHO@Comotose - - - - Don't forget the medication#1343567/24/05; 18:58:46

Thought I was on the wrong site !
R PowellCOT report#1343577/24/05; 19:06:40

This should bring up silver. Just scroll down to view copper and gold.

The paper game always seems to extend moves in either direction beyond most reasonable expectations. Often the upside becomes supercharged with fund (read speculative) buying and then the downside becomes a fundflush but this market noise is usually short term in nature, no? Gold + silver are, for me, so much harder to predict from long term supply/demand numbers than are the more mundane items like copper, corn or coffee. But, sometimes the COT numbers work as indicators. It has been even more frustrating of late with both our precious metals somewhat stuck in a relatively narrow price range.

With an extremely narrow (0.3 percent or .003) daily trading limit on the renminba, has China effectively severed the peg but so limited the currency's trading range so as to have rendered the Yuan revaluation issue into a Yawn issue? Or will the unpegging yield some fireworks yet?

How much more will the bond yield curve flatten? And does anyone else find it somewhat curious that this continuing "conumdrum" has not received much attention since being so-named by A. Greenspan? Wars, federal spending deficits, balance of trade deficits, unacknowledged inflation, outrageous housing prices, etc...Nothing seems to upset the economy! Or do these negatives pale in comparison to other economic factors? Is the largest + strongest economy of the world simply well able to withstand all this + more? What is the offsetting factor? Might it simply be that the world (global) economy is still absorbing exported USA fiat paper and wanting much more? I don't know.
Any thoughts on any of these ramblings? I'm still confused + wondering as I have been for years (since kindergarten, actually).

USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc."Open Forum"#1343587/24/05; 19:20:20

Outside of the occasional aberrations of ponderous off-topic threads (religion or, lately, aliens), it remains our hope that the trial period of Free Forum will continue to demonstrate that widening the range of topics need not necessarily detract from the quality of discussion as we originally feared it might by a relaxation of our past standard -- that posts should always have a detectible relation to gold ownership.

As a reminder, we have changed the forum rules on an ongoing trial basis to widen the range of discussion; broadened to include economics, the political economy and financial markets without a necessary gold component tied directly to the train of thought. Please note the absence of religion, aliens, and religious aliens.

This generalization of the rules is intended to allow posters to more fully develop their economic views and share them with others to make for a more interesting and dynamic discussion group. Again, we want to emphasize that this remains a gold forum intended for individuals who either own gold, contemplate ownership or advocate gold as a key element in the domestic or international monetary system. We ask posters to keep that in mind when composing their posts.

The rules having to do with forum decorum remain in place as do the rules prohibiting the touting of specific stocks or promotion of any kind.

We would like to thank all the posters who have made this a special place to gather on the internet. We hope our widened guidelines for "open forum" do not lead to a slide from relevance, and for that we look forward to your participation and cooperation toward a mutual goal improving the foundation of knowledge and understanding of the gold market.

Cavan ManQuestion....#1343597/24/05; 19:21:58

What do aliens, UFO's and Arch Crawford have in common?
R PowellM.K.#1343607/24/05; 19:24:27

I'll second that.
If goldbugs have forgotten gold in favor of UFOs, might that be a confirmation that metal prices have been recently rangebound? An omen perhaps, portending the approaching end of the tranquility?

As much as many do not like to see gold refered to as a commodity, it is so traded worldwide. And, as such, gold has actually been relatively quiet and tame in comparison to the likes of coffee, oil, the grains and copper. Just one man's opinion here, but I do not believe this will remain so. Always quiet before the storm.

Consider the total forum posting here over the years and the amount that is truely worth saving as similar to the weight of ore necessary to process one ounce of gold.
Hopefully it's been a happy weekend.

FlaccusCavan: OK. I'll bite.#1343617/24/05; 19:30:32

They are all headquarted in the Valley of the Sun?
PRITCHO@exponential -- - Re Post 134346 & comments supposedly made by Julian Robertson#1343637/24/05; 19:46:16

Hi there.I followed your link & found nothing there of any substance to support the contention that the Insana interview was not reported properly.Did you read the link thoroughly yourself?

The quotes supplied related to a blogger named "Anonymous".
He seems to find the content unappetising & after repeating Al Martin's report of the interview --he asks Roger Nusbaum:

"Roger this appeared in another forum and would like your confirmation being that you watched the interview. Is this what really transpired or is this a bunch of hooey by Martin?"

Roger then replies:
"that is the interview. He sees the potential for real problems and is not sure how we will avoid them. However there were no tears involved as I saw the interview. What I know of Mr. Robertson, I would take it as he sees a potential problem, it plays out or not but he does not get emotional when it comes to economic and financial matter. My take."
So he does not in any way take issue with the rest of the report.He simply says that he didn't notice any tears.

For my part I haven't heard of Julian Robertson before,nor Roger Nusbaum.I know little about Ron Insana & whether or not he is regarded as reliable.What I did find interesting was that the dates given for the taped interview was May 30
and the link was to the Wall St Journal video section.

--- The link is of course no longer there.If the content was anything like reported I would guess it would have been "well" edited and the "shelf life" would have been short.

Not many on "the street" would want to dwell on such negative forecasts.

SundeckAn haiku or two#1343647/24/05; 19:59:02

UFOs delude...
Ideologies extrude...
Gold is never rude!

Ego everywhere.
Chaos, collapse and despair!
Gold still holds The Chair...

Forum retches, raves...
MK exasperated.
...miners dig for gold!


Ned@ MK#1343657/24/05; 20:02:44

I wouldn't worry too much Sir. Opening the door to an 'open forum' invites any and all to a very WIDE latitude of discussion. I admit to wondering off a little too far on weekends. There might be some strange stuff going on but as long as it's not ugly I think we're okay. Water off a duck......

Remember the days of Farfel with all the cursing and swearing. Now that was ugly. I'm pretty sure if we've survived that we can get through this UFO business (


Let Monday bring passionate gold discussion and an uptick for us!

Have a golden evening Sir MK.

Ned@ MK#1343667/24/05; 20:02:44

I wouldn't worry too much Sir. Opening the door to an 'open forum' invites any and all to a very WIDE latitude of discussion. I admit to wondering off a little too far on weekends. There might be some strange stuff going on but as long as it's not ugly I think we're okay. Water off a duck......

Remember the days of Farfel with all the cursing and swearing. Now that was ugly. I'm pretty sure if we've survived that we can get through this UFO business (


Let Monday bring passionate gold discussion and an uptick for us!

Have a golden evening Sir MK.

NedWhoops !#1343677/24/05; 20:03:40

Sorry about that waste of HDD!
NedSundeck#1343687/24/05; 20:05:15

Perfect !


NedSpot's up 2 bits........#1343697/24/05; 20:06:47

....let 'er rip buddy!
YGMA Few Golden Factoids#1343707/24/05; 20:07:14

Did You Know that GOLD Could Save Your Life?
It's true, Gold could save your life! Not only is gold helping to heal the sick but also to save lives on our nation's roads. How? Read on!

In Medicine
Gold coated lasers are being used to give new life to patients with once inoperable heart conditions and tumors.

Gold-coated thermometers are widely used to detect accurate body temperatures of babies and unconscious patients.

New lightweight lasers designed by the military, using gold-plated mirrors, enable medics to seal battlefield wounds in the field to reduce blood loss and improve survival chances for the seriously wounded. In hospitals, this new design will allow lasers to be brought to critically injured emergency patients without moving them, saving precious moments-and lives.

In Space
Gold's unmatched reflective qualities protect spacecraft, astronauts and their instruments from the searing heat of the sun and infrared radiation.

A protective gold coating secures the vital lifesaving umbilical cord that tethers astronauts on spacewalks, while goal-coated visors protect their eyes from the sunlight.

The rocket engines of space shuttles are lined with four miles of gold-brazed tubing which carries liquid hydrogen. These tubes keep the nozzle of the shuttle cool and prevent it from melting at its operating temperatures of 6,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

In the Air
Air traffic controllers around the world depend on gold for the flawless operation of radar equipment.

Gold is used with nickel to bond compressor vanes in the huge turbines of commercial jetliners, enabling them to withstand exhaust temperatures of more than 1150 degrees Fahrenheit.

A thin transparent film of gold helps keep the pilot's windshield clear when subfreezing temperatures threaten cockpit visibility.

Gold has saved the lives of hundreds of military aviators through the faultless operation of aircraft escape systems.

On Our Roadways
Hundreds of lives have been saved and thousands of injuries prevented on our nation's roads by the reliable functioning of airbags, which rely on gold-coated contacts and electronic sensors for dependability.

Twenty-eight million automobiles and light trucks built over the past four years in North America have factory-installed, life-saving anti-lock braking systems. Of all the materials available in the world, only gold contacts can help achieve the minimum 10-year or 150,000 mile design standard for these safety systems, because of gold's unique resistance to extreme weather conditions.

In Hospitals and Office Buildings
A gold-coated infrared instrument has been developed to immediately detect unhealthy buildup of carbon monoxide and other indoor pollutants.

Underground in our Mines
Today's miners also rely on gold. When air goes bad, gold-activated sensors detect oxygen depletion and sound an alarm.

What Makes Gold So Amazing and Invaluable?
Gold does not corrode, crumble, or tarnish, and it is unaffected by moisture, oxygen or most acids, whatever the conditions. No other metal is as dependable as gold and it is virtually indestructible!

CometosePritcho #1343717/24/05; 20:44:52

It's COMETOSE : that's COMET ose .............

The pharmaceutical cos' want you to go to sleep, sleep , sleep ....and be good sheep , sheep , sheep ......
So you won't make a PEEP , PEEP , PEEP
Away in the DEEP DEEP DEEP
Watch out for the PUSHER MAN ...............Working hand in hand with the POLITICAL HACK THIEVES.......

Don't use the stuff (medication} , as it interferes with my WILLPOWER.........

Looking from here to the TAIL END of THE FULNESS of TIME .... I agree with the gentleman that speaks openly about the true goal of the NWO on a FINANCIAL AND ECONOMIC
Level ....It will take a cataclysm for the rest of the WORLD TO BOW DOWN TO THEM {NWO}who remain now still offline.

Pray they rather fight than switch (that's a Tarreyton ad line}. Otherwise , were back to the unity that made the TOWER OF BABEL and the adherence to its Promoters so non diverse......

There's great danger in the lack of diversity .......internationally and domestically ...
As long as FREEDOM EXISTS........and FREEDOM of Expression and Diversity in that FREEDOM AND EXPRESSION ,,,,,,GOLD will be relevant...........

PRITCHO@ Cometose - - - - - Re Correct spelling #1343727/24/05; 20:52:49

Sorry about that - -a handle should always be repeated correctly - -no offence intented :)
GoldiloxNon-moneary uses for gold#1343737/24/05; 20:58:58

@ YGM,

"In Space
Gold's unmatched reflective qualities protect spacecraft, astronauts and their instruments from the searing heat of the sun and infrared radiation."

Thanks for the info. I've always wondered of gold's crystaline density lent it any protective properties against cosmic radiation.

One of the enigmas of the NASA program is the ability to protect humans from the van Allen radiation belts and the solar proton wind. Maybe gold has some properties that might help in that quest.

YGMGoldilox...#1343747/24/05; 21:05:52

Some interesting and mysterious things about Gold..
GoldiloxGold site#1343757/24/05; 21:19:49

@ YGM,

Thanks for the link,

This is my favorite:

Gold Clear as Glass

The development of microelectronic manufacturing technology has enabled researchers to produce ultra high purity materials. When gold was purified to the limits of the technology, it had the appearance of clear glass and was completely transparent. This interesting and curious revelation brought to mind a passage in the King James Bible that was written ~1,900 years ago: "...and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass" (Revelation 21:21). It is now known that the deep rich yellow color is not a natural property of absolutely pure gold, but is instead the result of impurities.

SmeagolClear blue-green gold#1343767/24/05; 21:42:55

When you look through gold leaf that has been applied to glass, the transmitted light is a deep blue-green...


TheJuniorMinerR Poewll/ramblings#1343777/24/05; 22:11:43

As far as the COT's, I find them very interesting for a futures trader but have no skill or risk tolerance for such. Ted Butler and David Morgan have been spot on reading the COT's over the last year and it amazes me they can be so accurate. I have expected copper to be the first real problem the sellers face and I will find it amusing when the Comex and LME run out. I think this will be inevitable for the COMEX without some kind o rabbit in their hat. Perhaps this will help end the massive shorting game in commodities.

As an investor and a homeowner I do not want anything to do with a long term US government bond or a variable rate mortgage yet we have a high demand for US treasuries and still buyers opt for variable loans. This "conundrum" doesn't make much sense to me either and it is bound to change and probably very abruptly. I wish I could predict the timing as I already expected change.

I have wondered many times why so much US paper is being absorbed outside of this country. Seems like continually loaning money to a borrower that has shown no propensity to ever stop is a loosing investment decision. Perhaps there are motives for which we do not yet understand.

My knowledge of the last two generations of Americans leads me to believe they are leading a rather blissful life. When it comes to economics, markets, debt, and money management most have no clue. As long as they have their cell phone, big screen TV, flashy vacations and a new car parked in the driveway of their new house, all is fine. Working hard just to meet all monthly payments seems to be just the way it is. Makes the thought of a major job loss recession kinda scary. Until we the people wake up, this just might go on for a while.

I buy gold, silver, mining and energy equities as sound investment decisions and not so much with the expectations that I will make some kind of killing when or if the dollar collapses. But questioning why and having some understanding of the precipice that we face arms you with knowledge. I say be very wary and continually seek understanding. This forum has a part in that.


goldenpeacehaiku for MK#1343787/25/05; 02:46:31

Bowing to you sir.....

Despair all around?
Offering open space of patience
is itself Golden.


OZBelgian#1343797/25/05; 03:07:34

Hi all!
Whatever happened to our friend Belgian?
I really miss him. We hope he is fine.

MKYGM's suggested link and the new Gold Reference Library page#1343807/25/05; 07:20:13

Going to YGM's interesting link last night, I thought to enlist the help of all of our posters (and lurkers) in our new Reference Library page (linked above).

We are looking for reference material for this new page and YGM's link is just the sort of thing we would like to put there.

The idea is to provide a place where researchers from kids to professors to financial analysts can go to find reference material on gold. Those providing the link will be credited in the page and thus you will be enshrined in these for eternity, or whatever portion of that people find these pages useful. Also we will reward a silver U.S. Eagle for each link chosen as a reference starting with YGM's.

Any ideas??

MKAdd on. . .#1343817/25/05; 07:28:54

The links must keep the commercialism to a minimum. We would like the page to retain an academic disposition.
GoldiloxLimerick#1343827/25/05; 07:31:24

Sir MK,

With manufacturing and information science already exported to Asian shores, I thought I would offer some old fashioned "Made in USA" verse for your amusement.

There once was a poet named Buster,
Whose rhyme was so fine it would fluster.
It flowed like sweet wine
That he sipped with each line.
Now Hiaku's all he can muster.

GoldiloxHistory of the "Gold Standard"#1343837/25/05; 07:48:00

YGM, et al,

Here's an interesting history of the international "Gold Standard". Not as accurate in the behind-the-scenes dealings tht some of our more astute investigators might prefer, but fairly comprehensive.

I might also question a few of the mainstream econo-political statements, but when do I not do that?

GoldiloxPortman on CAFTA#1343847/25/05; 07:56:52

US Trade Ambassador Portman is on CNBC promoting CAFTA as a leveling of the "playing field"for US workers and manufacturers.

Gimme a break! I will still be required to sign a document forbidding me to sell my car in Mexico, so no "trade protection" for individuals, just some more "sweet deals" for corporate campaign contributors that want to move their labor force south.

MKThanks Goldilocks#1343857/25/05; 08:43:09

The "gold standard" at Wikipedia is just what we are looking for.
The link will be included at the Reference Library.

Please email < This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. > to receive your Silver Eagle.

And thanks, MK

MKSorry, got your handle wrong.#1343867/25/05; 08:43:55

Should know by now, Goldilox.
MKYGM#1343877/25/05; 08:47:23

If you would please contact < This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. > for your silver eagle as well.
GoldiloxReference page#1343887/25/05; 09:05:34

Thank you MK for your generosity. I will anxiously await its addition to my collection of 1964 Kennedy 1/2 dollars.

I hope you enjoyed the Limerick - I'm just not a Hiaku kinda guy.

My "handle" refers to the fact that I ceased cutting my hair when I retired. The pony tail is one more thing to deal with when I ride, as the wind tangles it if left unattended. Some day soon I may need to change it to "SilverLox" - LOL.

Probably TMI, but I prefer to not be confused with CNBC's description of the SM economy!

GoldiloxOne Man's view of CAFTA#1343897/25/05; 09:09:13


"One of the long awaited consequences we been looking for, as the country heads into its "stealth depression" (at least here in the opening hours) is the implosion of the labor movement. We see direct evidence of this today as the Teamsters and Service Employees are leaving the AFL-CIO after failing to 'reinvent' that group from the inside out. What has happened here is worth watching because Labor failed to save jobs when they had a chance (pre NAFTA) and with dissent in the ranks, Labor's ability to oppose further job theft, to places like India and China, and with this week's CAFTA vote, Central America as well.

More on point, Labor has failed to expose the "Big Lie" of "free trade" for what it really is - which has 2% to do with free trade and 98% with encouraging corporations play labor rate differentials in order to fatten their "profits" while failing to realize that in doing so, they have rotted the core of American enterprise and thrown away any pretense of moral leadership by the U.S. Money first, people last. Forget self sufficiency and economy of scale - this is the world of big box stores and slave labor camps in the third world. But, mind you it's a profitable concept before the system implodes.

If this sounds like a sensitive topic to me, you'd damn right. It's why we use the term peoplenomics rather than economics when discussing our viewpoint. Peoplenomics is about human-oriented mechanisms of trade, exchange, and stored value. Gold and purchasing power parity, to name two core concepts. Economics is about collecting paper and damn the social consequences.


George Ure, not one to mince words, offers his considered opinion on Labor's scramble to coexist with NAFTA, CAFTA, and Kafka [my addition].

mikalGold uses#1343907/25/05; 09:20:40

Choose from the following topics to learn more about interesting applications of gold.




YGMMK...Gold Links#1343917/25/05; 09:43:47

Well thank you very much & I will contact Marie forthwith. Imagine all the contests I partaken in over the years and experienced the horseshoes & hand grenade style luck and now I have a peice of Silver for a link. NICE & Thanks very much, it shall be added to my daughters fine collection as she always follows the contests to see if Dad finally got it right :-)....Ken
GoldiloxGold Institute#1343927/25/05; 09:47:13

@ Mikal,

Interesting site. I think I will bookmark the parent site to access all of its goodies including the "uses" page.

Also, a good reminder that 20% of the mined gold comes from our continent.

YGMAnother Gold Link#1343937/25/05; 09:51:51

"Mysteries of Gold"
GoldiloxMysteries of Gold#1343947/25/05; 09:57:59

@ YGM,

We've already overloaded their access limits - LOL.

Quite a testimony to the power of mention on CPM Form.

YGMAmerican Gold Rush History#1343957/25/05; 10:09:12

Great & extensive site for Goldrush history for kids especially (I like it too :-)
YGM(World) History of Gold#1343967/25/05; 10:14:14

PDF File and VERY extensive. Having been a Goldminer and Gold advocate for too many years to mention, I have many more links but will leave you w/ this one.
Lackluster"Real Bills"#1343977/25/05; 10:19:10

I am not sure what a "real bill" is, as discussed in the the above linked article. Does anyone mind defining it?

YGMRich Dad Poor Dad Author & Real Eastate Tycoon Turns to Gold Coin Investing#1343987/25/05; 10:22:00

'Rich Dad' guru turns cautious on buying real estate, buys Gold Coins.

Sunday, July 24, 2005

You read the real estate-to-riches books and finally took the plunge. You pulled the equity out of your home and bought another and then another. Despite your income of $45,000 a year, now you're leveraged to the tune of $1. 7 million and loving every minute. Because when the properties appreciate you'll have made the nest egg of your dreams.

Then you log on to your investment guru's Web site and discover this stunning news: Your real estate dreams are soon to be dust in the wind.

"If you want to be smart, buy gold coins."

Such may be the roller-coaster ride of advice for the followers of Robert Kiyosaki. His books -- "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" (1997), "Cashflow Quadrant" (1998) and nine other titles written by him and his "Rich Dad's Advisors" -- have dominated the best-seller lists for years, selling more than 24 million copies in 44 languages worldwide.

His infomercials, lectures and classes have reached millions more. This year, he was one of several superstars at a two-day, 46,000-person event in Los Angeles called Real Estate Wealth Expo, with this slogan: "One Weekend Can Make You a Millionaire."

He's played live at Madison Square Garden, chatted up Oprah on her show and hawked his ideas on everything from CNN to PBS pledge drives.

The essence of his thinking is one of simple financial literacy. Learn about money. Educate yourself financially and you too can learn what the rich have known for eons: Don't work for money, let money -- via the right investments -- work for you. Grow your assets. Shrink your liabilities.

But unlike many investment gurus, Kiyosaki, a Hawaii-born surfer who describes himself as an old hippie and environmentalist, despises standard financial planning advice. "Earn, save and buy a nice collection of mutual funds to supplement your Social Security" is anathema to him. Rather, he's made much of his fortune in real estate.

But now, in the past couple of months, the man -- whose engaging financial parables have coaxed millions of ordinary under-earning boobs (including yours truly) into the real estate market -- has become a major bubble-blower.

On his Web site,, which contains a forum for his casual and dedicated followers (including those who pay $100 a year to join his "insiders" club), he has begun posting articles that caution against what might be called "surreal estate exuberance."

He cites the Economist at length, including the assertion that "the global housing boom is the biggest financial bubble in history." He confesses that he's currently dumping real estate that produces no cash flow (from rental income) and going "long on gold and oil."

Curious about why one of the foremost real estate boosters has begun to sound like a survivalist in the Utah desert, I caught up with Kiyosaki by phone at his home on Waikiki beach.

"Don't get me wrong, I'm still buying real estate," he told me, adding that he was in the process of buying seven new properties but that he wasn't buying anything in expectation of appreciation. "I'm an investor, not a speculator. ... I want it to cash flow."

He knows that many others have not been so prudent. "I'm worried about people using their houses as ATM machines," he says, referring to those homeowners who have refinanced their homes to buy cars, pay for remodels or to buy more real estate.

"And I'm worried about all the people who are flipping properties (those who buy in order to immediately resell for a profit) -- that's really stupid right now."

But didn't his books, despite all their sound financial advice about reducing liabilities and increasing assets, probably help fuel this real estate craze?

"I think it's so," he concedes.

To be fair, Kiyosaki hasn't recommended that people leverage their homes for real estate riches. One of the key tenets he hammers away at is that a home is not an asset but a liability.

"A lot of people think of their homes as real estate," he says. "I don't play games with my home. I own two houses and I'm very attached to them, but I don't get attached to my real estate investments. It's just 'show me the money' -- if it doesn't cash flow, then I sell it."

The problem is that real estate, especially as depicted in his books, stands out as one of the few investments available to cash-poor individuals that can still return an income and long-term profit. Most of us don't have water rights or enough capital for a hedge fund. We don't have successful inventions that bring in royalty checks every month.

At least that's the message I took away when a review copy of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" fell on my desk in 1998. I recall opening the self-published, barely copy-edited book with a tinge of sympathy. With writing like this, who is this guy going to convince?

But by the next day, I'd read the book cover to cover and committed to changing my ostrichlike attitude about all things financial. I didn't want to be a millionaire, but owning a little wedge of real estate seemed like a better idea than what I had been doing: nothing.

Houses were something I could subject to my creativity and fantasy world. They also were something that I felt somehow secure about borrowing on -- even though I'd sooner chop off my earlobe than buy a stock on leverage. Since it was 1998, it was a good time to mistake his advice as Real Estate 101.

Although Kiyosaki's advice may have helped inflate the real estate bubble, he wants me to know that his influence has also had more positive effects. In Australia, the country with the greatest number of readers per capita of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," the government has decided to create a national program for teaching financial literacy to children. "I would like to take credit for that, " he says, "though I don't have any proof."

The real culprit behind the real estate bubble, he contends, is the federal government. "They're printing too much money," he says. "It's Gresham's law: When bad money enters the system, good money goes into hiding."

Kiyosaki believes the U.S. government has devalued the dollar, weakened the economy and created such distrust of the stock market that people have sought more secure ways to invest their money. And that has driven up real estate values.

"There's been enormous inflation," he explains. "(Federal Reserve Chairman Alan) Greenspan walks around saying there's no inflation, but that is based on the Consumer Price Index. They've taken all the assets out -- housing has gone through the roof, my steak has gone through the roof, oil has gone through the roof. In 1997, the price of oil was $10 per barrel -- now it's $57. If that's not inflation, I don't know what is."

Kiyosaki's solution is to invest in oil, gas, gold, silver -- whatever might be a hedge against the coming financial crisis.

If this sounds a little on the eccentric side, the fact is that Kiyosaki has always been something of an iconoclast.

"I never diversify, I never get out of debt and I never save money," he explains, adding that he doesn't put much stock in the stock market either. "Do you know why they call them broker -- because they're always broker than you are."

Like most influential self-help gurus, Kiyosaki's power lies in his charm, which is at once self-effacing, brash and disarmingly straightforward. This has allowed him to walk both sides of the street -- as an altruistic educator who shares his knowledge with the average wage earners whose pain he feels, and as the calculating, unabashed Machiavellian player who lives to win. In this sense, his sounding the alarm bells about the real estate market may be anything but altruistic. It may be, simply put, good business.

"Please crash, so I can buy some more," he says with a hardy laugh. "I want it to bust anyway. There's more opportunities in a down market."

CoBra(too)China and the Yuan - Change broadening band of peg ... #1344007/25/05; 11:06:14

Reading all sorts of explanations for Chinas move, it behoves to really think about what it's all about.

* Pressures have been eased in a way to save face for all "combattants", or is it (ex-)competitors? While the move is really neutral for China! - Lose some tiny export advantages and gain lower costs on raw materials and resources...

* Pegging the Yuan against an unknown basket of currencies and not against the Dollar alone - as all of SE-Asia has already followed Chinas lead - may become more of a direct concern. As it will become apparent that China will not for ever help monetizing the US debt by buying treasuries.
... The Bid for Unocal, blocked by the US may have been the start of an awakening process, that the Dollar doesn't buy anything more than "virtual" assets.

* As it becomes clear to the rest of the globalized world, that the Reserve Currency is only as good as the full credit of the US ... tax payer, who by himself is drowning in debt - both inflicted by himself as well as by his government, which may be condemmned for the structural mess the US finds itself - the US Fiat Reserve Currency is only that - Paper, which is on its way to its intrinsic value.

* Some argue, that as long as the US has the supreme military power, which it has undoubtably, the foundations of the superpower status are (suicide-) bombed away by the day. The US military today is more stretched than anytime in Ceasar's time...

* Without doubt China has launched a trial balloon and has made a major impact of detente in the worlds view. How can D.C. cope with that kind of goodwill, as it will also hallmark the end of China assisting the US monitization process.

... And to close, it was only a month ago that China instructed its banks to liberalize gold sales to the public - and also urged the citizens to make use of this investment possibility. Some analysts feel that China's public hunger for gold as a store of value may grow 20% per annum.

Personally, I feel this will be an understatement in the future ... He, who has the gold makes the rules!

CoBra(too)Made my Mark!#1344027/25/05; 11:16:04


Though please excuse my triple posting ... Once would have been more than sufficient - or prolly more than enough ... Sorry again - cb2

MKYGM & mikal#1344037/25/05; 11:26:54

We already have the History of Gold file, but thanks anyway.

Will look into your suggestion, mikal, when I get a chance. Thanks.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1344047/25/05; 14:58:40">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Monday Market Excerpts

July 25 (from Reuters) -- U.S. gold futures finished higher on Monday in rollover-dominated trading after the euro held relatively steady as investors began to focus on this week's batch of U.S. economic data, dealers said.

COMEX August gold contracts rose 90 cents to $425.90 after trading between $424.30 and $426.40.

Prices held firm as dealers tracked a narrowly traded euro/dollar and as summer holidays kept business in the precious metals rather subdued, traders said.

COMEX contract rollover was heating up as speculators who are long gold but don't plan to take physical delivery need to switch positions from the August contract into December futures before first notice day on Friday.

Open interest in the August contract fell 13,572 lots to 126,043 lots, while December's rose 11,882 to 95,160 lots.

Economic data coming out include consumer confidence on Tuesday, durable goods orders on Wednesday and second-quarter gross domestic product, the University of Michigan consumer confidence survey and the Chicago purchasing managers index on Friday.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr international economic newswire)---

BelgianHi OZ#1344057/25/05; 15:07:57

I'm doing fine, thanks mate. Am trying to find out *WHY* the dollar-factions want ( demand ) to devalue the world's "reserve" $-numeraire against the Asian currencies (not only the rmb/yuan).
The globe's reserve currency also devalued against gold, oil, commodities, stock market. Why would the dollar, with its reserve status, want to devalue against such a broad spectrum of references ?

The correct (same old) answer might be very simple (again):
The dollar-reserve cannot deflate anymore as to gain intrinsic strength and the nescessary credibility for its reserve status. Dollar-inflation through broad devaluation (faster and deeper) is the only solution left.

A depreciating dollar makes the dollar-volume inflate, worldwide. The amounts of dollar-reserves will increase against its declining purchasing power. For the time being, a net zero event at the early stages (orderly) of yet another Weimarization.

Asia certainly acted (responded) as expected >>> orderly and disciplined. No need to in Asia has been liberalized. No need to let gold function yet as the ballast for the $ printing presses. The evolving Asian factor is going to unmask our Western welfare states.

The reason why the dollar will lose its reserve status is that now the "currencies" are determining the economic fundamentals, where it should normally be the other way around. A $-IMS that has landed in such an upside down regime is terminally sick.

With a depreciating dollar, it is much easier to finance the (growing)(systemic) US deficits. Greater deficits and more $-digits in circulation.

In other words : With Asia depreciating the dollar-reserve...the globe agreed to use the $-numeraire for some more time. Fair enough, with FREEGOLD on one's mind.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Call to discuss whether this strategy is right for you#1344067/25/05; 15:47:10

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TopazJuly Ag -Aug Au.#1344077/25/05; 16:05:49

Can't shake the feeling we're not done with Ag just yet. Deliveries look shy but keep trickling through though ...still a couple of days to run.
Au might surprise on FND for Aug. Generally running @ 11-15k (per month) we have those 28K Calls (exp tomorrow) MAY come to the party.

We watch!

TownCrierHEADLINE: Bond group calls on Treasury to reissue long bond#1344087/25/05; 16:08:45

CHICAGO (AFX) - The bond industry wants the U.S. government to revive the 30-year Treasury bond...

The Bond Market Association, the trade group that represents the Wall Street bond houses that primarily buy and remarket government debt, told the Treasury Department in a letter that the long bond should be reissued beginning next February.

...the need to lock in long-term interest costs ... justify the bond's comeback, the trade group says.

Auctions of new 30-year bonds were suspended in 2001 ...... At the time, the Treasury was concerned about its ability to maintain liquid markets in all the securities it issued, the group said.

...Some observers were critical of not issuing 30-year debt when the government, which has shouldered large fiscal deficits, could lock in lower long-term rates. Interest rates have been rising as the economy improves.

"Treasury and U.S. taxpayers face the risk that interest rates could rise and the yield curve steepen at the time debt is refinanced, thus forcing the government to pay higher financing costs," said BMA president Micah Green.

A BMA survey showed that 98% of participating firms said they would be more likely to trade and invest in long-term securities should the 30-year bond be reintroduced, in part because they anticipate increased demand from retiring baby boomers.

^----(from url)----^

Looks like the BMA is selfishly seeking commissions on sales as they try to stick unwary baby-boomer retirees with these 30-year dogs. Clearly, if Micah Green makes an argument for reintroduction on the grounds that the government would be able to save financing costs against an expected environment of rising interest rates, then it stands to reason that it would be the hapless baby boomers to whom these bonds are peddled that would be left underwriting the government's cost savings through their own personal losses on the bond holdings.

The key point to reemphasize again from the article is this...

"...when the 30-year (bond) was discontinued in 2001... At the time, the Treasury was concerned about its ability to maintain liquid markets..."

Which is to say, after 9/11 the bottom (and price) was dropping out of demand for the long bond. Nothing fundamental has changes to stitch that bottom back into place were a reintroduction on any scale to be reattempted.

For the long haul, the world's savvy savers know to choose gold, not bonds.


CoBra(too)Summer Doldrums - Make the best of it!#1344097/25/05; 17:26:07

Managed markets run their course; The curse is that markets
having been managed for too long will react visciously at some stage.
I'm not predicting a viscious reaction for tomorrow, though the blatant suppression of gold (and possibly silver)may have run its course and the artificial suppression may backfire now at any moment.

We've seen this idiocy over and over again vis a vis gold for instance - the London Gold Pool in the late 60's has not only cost about a third of the US gold reserves - it also left President Johnson with a lot of egg on his face
... And finally Nixon to default the Dollar and the US on its international obligations.

Bretton Woods II, Plaza Accords and all sorts of ameleioration, spelled extortion, bordering on black mail have since filled the gap of a real and fair international monetary system.

The US, Europe, or whatever we may call developed world is now on the verge to lose this status to the real developing world.

We call it globalization - a great euphemism for "free trade" on terms, we thought are our terms; Lo and behold, the new trading partners thought so too; Their terms - and as they strive to become part of the first world ... Uh, oh, they can't care less about any social benefits built into the Westren system.

Oh, sure we still call China a socialist, if not communist country; The EU is still sporting and supporting an eco/ social market economy and the US, even if they don't accede can't afford either...

... So, while we're waiting patiently for the paint to dry -id est the idiocy of derivative trading monsters, hedge funds and the power of the government PPT's to once again prove their absolute ineptitude - we build up our defences and exchange their fiat paper barriers for the real stuff - just before the Asians own it all - Gold.

BoilermakerRMB Revaluation Comments and Questions#1344107/25/05; 18:16:05

Good to see Belgian with us again, just wish that Ari would pop in as well.

I have some thoughts and questions related to the recent RMB revaluation.
It seems the $index, since the RMB revaluation, has remained virtually unchanged. This reflects the fact that the currencies used to calculate the $index have also declined with the RMB reval. This suggests that none of the "$index" countries (Euro, Yen, Sterling, Loonie, Kroner and Franc) is trying to offset the revaluation. This is evidence that all the "established" fiats want to go south. Looking into this further, doesn't it mean that China has become the defacto price leader in the currency wars? If this is so, how can the US$ remain the world's reserve currency?
China is a producer of physical stuff. The US is a consumer of this stuff with a whole lot of debt markers outstanding. We have to mark down our major product, the $, to liquidate the $ inventory that exists as foreign reserves in China and elsewhere and also slow down the imbalance of ongoing trade.
The Euro has challenged the $ in recent times but it does not seem to be up to the task of challenging the RMB. Does this mean that the RMB will become the reserve currency by default? How does one accumulate RMB's? Are they available outside of China? If not, won't intelligent people come to the realization that if they can't get RMB's they'd better get the commodity stuff that China will be importing? Oil and gas must be high on their shopping list. Unocal and other deals will soak up some of those depreciating dollars. Gold will no doubt be part of China's new reserve mix but how much?
The big question in my mind is how this huge transition can be done quietly without huge economic repercusions. Why didn't the Chinese revaluation spook the currency markets?

GoldiloxHall and Barton Amendments to the Energy Bill#1344117/25/05; 20:35:36

Watching the Joint Energy Committee on CSPAN, 'cause WGN isn't broadcasting the Cubs-Giants tonight, the bums.

The Hall amendment was added pretty much at the last minute, allocating funds for the development of new "crude cracking" technologies.

One lone Senator from Massachsetts asked the pertinent question:

"With record profits in the billions, and $60/bbl oil, why does the petroleum industry need taxpayer funds to conduct this research?"

As usual, the only resistance to the corporate steam roller is a single token "No" vote.

Now Henry Waxman is suggesting that the energy bill is not the place for amendments that override the clean air act in the Barton amendment. If they want to change the Clean Air act, they should reintroduce the clean air act itself. Nope, Barton passes as well.

My favorite, however is a $250M allocation to "clean up" the effects of MTBE that was added to gasoline to "clean it up" in the first place.

GoldendomeSend Goldi the rounding error!#1344127/25/05; 23:26:59

China revalued up (what?) 2.1% against the dollar. That adjustment just cost them approximately 5 billion 61 million dollars if my calculation is correct on the approximately 241 billion dollars they hold. The power of little changes to big numbers!
BelgianHi Boilermaker#1344137/26/05; 02:55:50

Why hasn't the chinese revaluation (Asian revaluations) spooked the currencies ? Answer : Derivatives, that increasingly (and continiously) hedge the $-numeraire in its functioning as the world's reserve + the systemics of political economy. THE SYSTEMIC DEFICITS MUST REMAIN SERVICED !

Observe to what extend this whole planet is ready to "compromise" into absurdity ! Is definitely a new fenomenon. Of course, this will not (cannot) last (right Cobra).

Theoretically, the whole complex of dollar-hedging derivatizations can go on for eternity. (Idem dito for acts of terror).
Therefore it will be an OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT CHANGE AWAY from supporting this systemic, that will change the entire matter.

Only to be realized when one sees how deep the global political economy (economies) has rooted.
And the global credo of this systemic is : world wide, permanent, dollar expansion. Indirectly (re)confirmed by Snow's recent statements.

Some do call this fenomenon the NWO. But this planet will never reach the status of ONE world order. This is politically impossible.

Gold is definitely embedded in a long term "political" move.
Allow me to pull your attention again on the (intra)daily behavior of the $-POO and the $-exchange rate : Rising $-ex.r. = rising $-POO. And bear in mind that the US deficits must remain feeded (2 billion a day) with the surplus dollars (80% of the planet's savings) that are generated outside America. The main reason for ever increasing dollar-expansion and consequently, further domination. W're not talking about a local peso, but about the world's reserve currency in wich 80% of world trade is settled. Snow remains very confident that the dollar is to hold its reserve status >>> Why... does he need to remind us about this !?

The dollar (Snow) remains very confident (for the time being) that the globe cannot (shall not) "run away" from the $-IMS...and its cosmic debts !?
But not everybody on this planet will continue to accept the ever growing dollar-hedge derivatization COMPLEX. Impossible NWO ! That's why the change in oil-pricing is in progress and the gold-pricing will follow. It is NOT the political management of currencies that should dominate the globe's activities, but the other way around > MERITOCRACY !!!

SundeckYuan revaluation#1344147/26/05; 04:05:03

There have been several good articles in the Australian Financial Review over the last few days, that I am still trying to get my head around...more on that later...

Sir TC, I recall that you posted a fairly detailed description about a year ago, perhaps 18-months ago, on the mechanics of China's prior peg of the yuan to the dollar...I'm sorry that I cannot be more specific...but I would find it interesting if you could direct me to it in the archives...perhaps this is an impossible ask??

CoBra(too) #134400 ...good post Sir CB2...a couple of comments.

There seems to be some disquiet (Huw McKay, Senior International Economist with Westpac) that China's move is neither one thing nor the other...that, is, neither a useful step on the road to a floating currency, nor a very helpful political gesture of goodwill. I find it hard to believe that this first step is anything other than a careful chess move by China and one that they have quite deliberately been preparing for for a considerable time. So I agree with you: a "trial baloon" indeed and a "major impact of detente" that Washington is going to have to cope with, somewhat awkwardly methinks.

On gold ownership, while it is true that only recently have banks been granted liberalised gold-trading with the public, I recall the chairman of the PBOC, more than a year ago, overtly encouraging China's citizens to acquire gold...perhaps an earlier move of a pawn (or perhaps a horse...or even a rook) in the unfolding chess-game playing out between China and The West.

I too wonder at the wisdom of the US's "conventional" defence build-up...I think in cost, the defence budget is comparable to the debt build-up (about $2B per day). A modern-day Maginot Line, and completely outflanked by the suicide bomber...yet another example of J F C Fuller's principle known as "the constant tactical factor". The naivity of the whole melodrama is underscored by the still massive presence of nuclear arsenals in the world when now the threat is not so much state versus state, but rather disaffected-group versus state. So too we see the "conventional" nuclear arsenals, and the doctrines of their deployment, outflanked by small groups of people who seek to acquire nuclear weapons to redress "petty" grievances, not wage international war.

The drift away from the dollar has begun in earnest... China with its massive dollar reserves, that no doubt grow larger by the day, probably feels that it is now sufficiently secure in its finacial position to broaden its reserve base to more fairly reflect its trade weights. The US surplus has given China a large enough pool of chips to play in the world casino by fair means or foul....whether the game is to "acquire energy assets", or play "stand-over man" in the currency/treasury markets. Secure financially, China is now free to engage all nations of the world (be they friend or flea to the US) in trade and directed aide.

Interesting times Sir CB2...


mikalWhat IS "Globalization"?#1344157/26/05; 07:47:34

US Must Focus on its Economic Troubles - Molly Ivins - July 26, 2005
Ivins bluntly describes various economic maladies, comparing the current US leadership to that of USSR that led to its economic collapse and breakup. Laying blame on multinational corporations, lopsided tax cuts, "globalization" and "an increasingly active right-wing judiciary", Ivins, a long-time syndicated columnist with a penchant for political expediancy, illustrates that media can't ignore real-life, day to day realities even if it must politically slant them. A shame she can't implicate the stateless bankers, chairmen, fence-sitting politicians and other shielded beneficiaries of "multinational" largesse, taxation, inflation and their "increasingly active" puppet judiciary.
God, grub and gold(inner strength and direction, food and real assets) are urgent human goals at any point in history.

TownCrierSundeck, "18 months ago..."#1344167/26/05; 11:35:22

Ooofff. Maybe, had my post been made 18 HOURs ago I might (MIGHT) have had reasonable odds at the finding of it. But 18 months! Anywhere deeper than two days into the archives and I get spooked by the cobwebs, so you'll probably have to find yourself another 'Indiana Jones' to locate the particular relic you're seeking.

However, if I've kept a copy of it in my own files, then we might be in business. Do you remember if there was any special theme to the post or the subject line -- other than generically about China?

Or maybe better still, with the passage of time I may have crystalized my thoughts and could possibly provide a briefer and clearer presentation of the concept you're considering. Alternatively, it is also possible that with the passage of time I've forgotten small but vital elements in the equation, in which case an attempt at recapitulation may produce only an un-inspired weak sister to the original presentation.


USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.FREE Gold Information Packet. Get yourself started with grace and confidence!#1344177/26/05; 11:59:35

mikalChinese increase Yuan opacity#1344187/26/05; 13:03:13

International Perspective - China's Yuan "Stability" Incompatible with "Flexibility" - Marshall Auerbock - 07/26
Without devaluation, calls for protectionism could reemerge(likely) and currency speculators may step in and attack the yuan. Reasons: China has removed a transparent peg in favor of one which can result in a lower OR higher Yuan at it's whim, by pegging to an undisclosed and different basket daily. China's imporets have fallen off drastically in recent months while exports climb. China's yuan could fall or rise. Currency reform and trade concerns have been shelved in favor of a policy Auerbock shows is much riskier to the world economy, a policy doubtlessly premeditated.

TopazThere you go Sunny.#1344197/26/05; 13:06:16

Head-Torch on ...check, Pick and Shovel ...check, You're ready for some serious diggin!
TownCrierUnocal drama far from over despite lawmaker vote#1344207/26/05; 14:30:28

NEW YORK, July 26 (Reuters) - CNOOC Ltd.'s $18.5 billion takeover bid for Unocal Corp. has been dealt a setback by a Congressional vote delaying the approval of any deal, but the Chinese oil company is far from out of the race to scoop up the U.S. oil and gas producer, market observers say.

Late on Monday, a U.S. Senate-House conference committee finalizing a broad energy bill voted to approve a delay of up to 141 days in a Bush administration review of CNOOC's bid for Unocal.

Following Monday's vote, negotiators would require the U.S. Energy, Homeland Security and Defense departments to first conduct a 120-day study of how China's growing demand for energy affects the economic or national security interests of the United States....

Chevron, which has argued that ... the takeover battle is not being conducted on a level playing field, welcomed the latest move in Washington.

^-----(from url)-----^

To restate an old point: if trade and acquisition can be so easily blocked by Congressional intervention, then internationals will surely ask what good are the claim tokens known as U.S. dollars that they've been holding all these years?

By the way, how many and how long are the tentacles of Homeland Security? That thing gives me more heebie-jeebies than I would normally care to admit.


TownCrierEurosystem reserve rebalancing#1344217/26/05; 14:51:36

Weekly consolidated financial statement of the Eurosystem shows the gold reallocations (as set forth under the terms of the 2004 Agreement) are proceeding smoothly, with another EUR 175 million (15 tonnes) in gold reserves being put into play last week.

Meanwhile, over the same period the Eurosystem monetary officials allowed the net position in foreign currency to be trimmed by a more sizable EUR 1200 million (1.2 billion).

Net foreign paper reserves now stand at EUR 167 billion, while gold reserves weigh in at EUR 138.123 billion. This all compares with approximately EUR 400 billion in 'locally grown' assets on the eurosystem balance sheet.


TownCrierChina rejects gradual revaluation#1344227/26/05; 16:30:32{F9347C60-4287-46F5-9C18-841631460A90}&siteid=mktw

NEW YORK (MarketWatch) -- China's central bank threw cold water Tuesday on speculation that the yuan will be allowed to strengthen further.

"A revaluation of RMB by 2%, effective in the beginning of the exchange rate regime reform, does not in the least imply an initial move which warrants further actions in the future," the People's Bank of China said in a statement on its web site.

"Certain foreign media has misled the public and even wrongly speculated that the revaluation of RMB by 2% was only the first step in a series of adjustments," the statement said.

...One congressional critic of China's currency policy put Beijing on notice. "We trust that the Chinese will allow market forces to work," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., in a statement.

^-----(from url)-----^

Allow market forces to work? Market forces, Chuck? MARKET forces???!

When the dollar-supportive pricing paradigm for the gold market is allowed to be driven by convential "market forces", only then will certain political blowhards have a leg to stand on to offer a fair basis for complaint.

Until then, keep loading up cheaply on gold -- that is, might as well put the system to work for YOU for as long as the condition lasts.


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Tuesday Market Excerpts

July 26 (from MarketWatch) -- Metals futures closed broadly lower Tuesday, pressured by strength in the U.S. dollar after China signaled it won't be revaluing its currency again anytime soon.

The dollar's gains came after China's central bank said it would be misleading to speculate that there will be further reform moves regarding the yuan following its 2.1% revaluation last week.

Against this backdrop, COMEX August gold contracts closed at $423.50, down $2.40.

"Since the November high, gold has put in a series of lower highs and higher lows," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities. "Once this consolidation pattern or sideways trading period has run its course, the market will break out of this pattern -- although there's no way of telling which way it's going to go when it does," he said.

Doelling himself believes prices will "break out to the upside with gold pushing significantly higher over the next 18 to 24 months." This is in keeping with his view that the "dollar is going to take it on the chin soon and the precious metals will benefit from the slide."

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

TownCrierIs the Euro Forever?#1344247/26/05; 17:42:56

July 26, 2005 (excerpts) -- Leaders of European Union member states have been reeling from the double rejection of the proposed European Constitution by two of the six founding members, theNetherlands and France.

The reasons for rejection were varied and contradictory...

One particular object of derision and scrutiny is the euro, the currency adopted in 1999 by 12 of the 15 member states that comprised the EU before the admission of 10 Central and Eastern European states in 2004.

...Designed to entrench and symbolise European unity internally and augment the EU's influence abroad, the euro also makes economic sense to EU leaders. It obviated further speculative attacks onEurope's vulnerable system of pegged currencies, reduced the uncertainty of inter-European trade and substituted the increasingly insular Bundesbank's de facto control of the EU's monetary policy for the community-minded ECB. For many of Europe's more indebted, inflationary and devaluation-prone governments (Portugal, Italy, and Greece) monetary union reduced government borrowing and debt-servicing costs and attenuated the threat of insolvency.

For all of the advantages of a currency union, the opportunity costs can be dear to national politicians and voters erroneously wedded to the notion that government can and must "manage" the economy to promote growth. The existence of the ECB precludes individual member states from inflating their way out of trouble, a self-defeating prescription that merely serves to distort investment and production patterns and covertly redistributes income, ultimately aggravating economic problems.

...Much to their chagrin, the Maastricht Treaty states that the ECB must chiefly pursue price stability followed by limiting money growth.

^----(from url)-----^

Grant Nülle goes on to address some of Europe's structural sticking points with respect to an optimal currency area.

Despite a palpable Misesian monetary slant (contempt) at times, for the most part the commentary makes for good reading, with Grant making especially good use of Italy as a case study to show the tensions of economic reality.

From my own perspective, the eurosystem has as its fundamental character flaw this specific statement (insofar or as long as it remains valid) as expressed near the end of the article:

"EMU amalgamates all eurozone member states' debts and the ECB considers each country's bonds -– whatever the member state's debt burden -- as near-perfect substitutes."

Were I to dictate the design, the ECB's main financing operations would take special care not to affect the market's ability to determine the independently variable rates as appropriate for the various separate entities issuing such unique euro-denominated bonds as Italian government, German goverment, Paris municipal, or any given corporate issuance of bonds or bundled financial near-equivalents such as mortgage-backed securities.

A highly valued MTM freegold (pricing paradigm) ought to evolve into the primary reserve position, with monetary policy fine-tuning conducted carefully (on a market-neutral basis(!)) against an acceptible list of 'home grown' assets/collateral.

As always, life in an unending series of new challenges to be smartly met with new and insightful solutions.

Mr. Trichet, are you listening? Oh, that's right, you're ahead of the game.

Ahem... Mr. Greenspan, are you watching?


TownCrierDid you know...?#1344257/26/05; 18:15:52

From David Willetts MP recent London speech:

"latest figures produced by the OECD in the Spring. They measure the value in dollars of what was produced in the year 2003 per hour worked in the world's major economies. In France, close to the top of the table, they produce $47.2 of output for every hour they work. In the USA it is $43.5. In Germany it is $40.6 of output per hour worked. In Italy it is $40.1. Across the G7 the average is $39.8 of output per hour worked. What is the figure for the UK? We are way behind most of our competitors with a figure of $37.7 of output per hour worked. Britain's output per hour is one of the worst among the major Western economies."

^----(from speech at url)----^

Amazing figures, aren't they?

Have you ever felt sometimes, after being at it for an hour, that you've done no more than just beating your head on a wall?

Somebody somewhere must be doing yeoman's work to bring the average back up...


SproutAnother Euro Thought While on the Subject#1344267/26/05; 18:24:01

A lot of chatter the last couple/few weeks Re: UK Cutting Rates

If the UK was thinking of entering the Euro fold, wouldn't it be advantageous to make a move with Exchange Rates at Current Spreads, rather than the Pound falling against the Euro????

R PowellGreed makes capitalism work...very well....#1344277/26/05; 19:02:09

TownCrier words here.......

"Have you ever felt sometimes, after being at it for an hour, that you've done no more than just beating your head on a wall?

Somebody somewhere must be doing yeoman's work to bring the average back up..."

Why thank you TC. And yes, those of us who get paid by the finished job rather then by the time involved usually are much more efficient + productive.

Pay a man (or woman) by the hour and tally up how much gets done. Then pay the same man the same money to do the same job and tally how long it takes him. Incentive is the key.

PS....I'll also work for 10% less if my customers pay me in is the spot dollar equivalent from which I deduct the 10%, but, alas, nobody has ever taken me up on the offer.
I guess those who do hold precious metals favor parting with paper money more readily than their silver. Maybe I'll try 20% just to see what happens....

Sundeck@TC #134416 - China peg#1344287/26/05; 19:10:39

Yes, I thought I might get a response like that... :-)

I probably cannot add much more to assist you in the hunt...other than it was a fairly detailed description of the mechanisms China used to maintain the 8.28 peg, so it may have contained terms like "capital account" and "8.28" and "sterilisation" etc...not much help, I know.

No worries...just thought it might have been one post that stuck in your memory out of the thousands that you have contributed...

Now...if I could just run a search engine over the forum archives....(wishful thinking??)...navigating between the cobwebs...who knows?...might find the Holy Grail!!



otish mountainSundeck: re yuan peg#1344297/27/05; 00:28:24

Henry C.K. Liu gives a good account on the history of rhe yuan peg. whether the formula for the most recent past peg is decribed I can't remember.Anyway its a good read. Hope it helps.
BelgianTowncrier's postings...#1344307/27/05; 01:22:14

1/ ....another 15 tonnes in (ECB) gold reserves being put into play last week...

2/...MTM freegold...pricing paradigm...

>>> Whilst so called goldprice-analysts keep on predicting a higher goldprice for years now and gold should remain to be seen (considered) as a "commodity".

A Disneyland ticket inflated 56 times ($1 > $56) over the past 50 years. The same fun for a 56 times higher (inflated) unit of account. During these same 50 years, many central banks kept gold-metal as a reserve. WHY are these central banks "pricing" that identical gold reserve differently !? Is it because they differ fundamentally in opinion on the "value" of this gold (commodity-?) as a reserve !? Or are there different Disney-tickets ?

Before EMU, the EU-12, also "priced" their respective gold reserves, differently. And now suddenly, with EMU...the 12 states agree on the gold reserves' price...PRICING !!! All have now to pay the same $56 Disney entry ticket.

Is gold > THE COMMODITY, dictating the price worth of CB gold reserves...or is there another (formidable) force (concept) that "manages" the goldprice...with a very...VERY, specific goal and purpose...evolving goals and purposes !?
...another 15 tonnes in (ECB) gold reserves PUT INTO PLAY..
Quite a lot of gold reserves have been PUT INTO PLAY during the past decade !!! How come ?
Answer for the general public : Never mind's the commodity market. And you don't need to pay your inflated Disney ticket with deflated gold, anyway.

What if Asian and oil-owning states continue to accumulate gold into their reserves next to the fast growing stashes of dollar-reserve-paper...that soon will depreciate faster than the compensating rising volume of this dollar-paper in reserve !? Then the simple MTM principle of gold reserves would be very handy (convenient), no.
Certainly when they "all" have sufficient metal in their vaults accumulated in tempo non suspecto at an absurd exchange for an already hyper inflated (7 decades) unit of account. Simple, no.

In this doesn't matter how the purchasing power of the globe's unit of account ($) evolves...nor what the IRs on debt are...etc. And isn't it nice...very convenient... to see that another 1,2 billion chinese folks are doing what 1 billion indians already did with the goldmetal. Are they buying gold as a "commodity" ? No, they all buy goldmetal as the perfect store of wealth. This 5000 years old principle has increasing reasons to come back in voque as dollar-globalization rapidly progresses. The planet is certainly NOT going to accept another 87% decline in $-purchasing power in the next 50 years.

But in order to have the gold-MTM concept installed universally...the old $-goldmarket must step back ! That's the * WHY * of the ...GOLD RESERVES BEING PUT INTO PLAY !!!
That "play" is the one and only explanation for the goldprice's enigmatic behavior, for the past 25 years.

EMU members have to bring gold reserves IN and the dollar block wants all the gold reserves OUT ! Two opposing concepts.
Is it coincidence that the opposition against China and the ME is increasingly growing ?

TopazDX/Oil#1344317/27/05; 02:31:10

Oil DX seem to be getting along splendidly here and no wonder, with Oil the "backing" for our Fiat reserve currency it's entirely appropriate ...for the moment!

With Ag disappointing (to date) in July, the focus now turns to Aug Au. Will we see another "spike" in all currencies?

One could add that a DX/Oil/Au concerted run-up will be the "Red-Flag" we deflationists are looking for.

GoldiloxECB 15 tons into "play"#1344327/27/05; 09:57:55

@ Belgian,

How do you interpret the ECB selling gold as "EMU members have to bring gold reserves IN"?

On the surface, this seems contradictory. Can you explain?

GoldiloxReuters Gold Market Summary#1344337/27/05; 10:10:20


"NEW YORK, July 27 (Reuters) - Gold futures in New York bounced from a fresh one-week low Wednesday morning, powered by a wave of speculative buying after the euro rebounded from a near 14-month low against the dollar, traders said.

At the New York Mercantile Exchange's COMEX division, August delivery gold ((GCQ5)) was up 50 cents at $424 an ounce by 9:49 a.m. EDT, dealing between $421.80, its lowest price since last Wednesday, and $424.80.

The dollar was the primary driver for gold, dealers said, with fund liquidation initially shoving the metal down before a burst of short covering emerged as bullion managed to hold above key support at $422.50.

"It's just a reaction to the euro," said a New York trader at a precious metals refiner.

Before steadying, the euro fell toward 14-month lows against the dollar after stronger-than-expected U.S. durable goods orders data cemented market ideas for more Federal Reserve interest rate hikes.

"The gold market had been short on the durable goods number, but then there was short covering, and then, as gold prices rose, more buying," the trader added. "But we have resistance at $425/426, and I think it will be difficult to get through there."

Some traders were concerned that gold was set to drop into the low $420s for a time -- after a rally on China's currency revaluation faltered last week and there was a lack of prolonged safe-haven buying after the London bombings.

Dealers put technical support in COMEX August gold at $420 and then at $417, with resistance at $427 to $428.

In New York futures, speculators were busy rolling their August gold positions into December ((GCZ5)), the next most active month, before Friday's first notice day for metal delivery.

"Rollover is the main feature this week," a floor broker said early Wednesday."


Seems like a really tight trading range for now.

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GoldiloxDurable Goods#1344357/27/05; 11:27:59

Jim Sinclair's Commentary:

I spoke to Dr. F. this morning, who specializes in separating fact from BS, and he pointed out that the main ingredients in the better Durable Goods report today is the "give away" on autos at "zero profit." Besides this wonderful economic development, he pointed out that another addition to the report was bullets, bombs and rockets for the purpose of democratization of the willing. Therefore, once again we are the recipients of a Dr. F. syndrome commonly referred to as BS.


I saw an interesting piece on PBS last night called "Guns, Germs, and Steel" about the successes and failures of European colonists on the African continent. I agree with Jim's commentary, but he forgets the incredible gifts given to Big Pharma by the Medicare "give away". And with CAFTA nearing acceptance by the CONgress, we should also see another round of Big Non-taxpayer theft from the US workers to "subsidize" their colonial sweat shops.

R PowellTopaz#1344367/27/05; 12:46:32

Thanks mate for the idea! I copied your link but adjusted a little refering to myself and my favorite metal, silver and worked to some degree. That is, it brought me to some old posts. I'm completely confused as to why it picked those specific ones but maybe someone smarter than I could refine the link to locate (zero in on) specific subjects, posters, years or whatever.

Maybe this might help in the future to categorize the information from years of posting that is not already stored in the hall of fame and elsewhere.

It took me back to a time when I reported the daily ups + downs of the POG, the HUI and the lease rates.

For conumdrum watchers, the yield curve is still flattening. The difference between the 5 and 10 year is down to well under 20 base points or one fifth of one percent. I'm as confused as is the Fed. chairman as to what is causing this and as to what it may portend. Classic economic theory states that this is not a good omen. Some analysts opine that it predicts some troubles + usually predicts them about one year in advance of the fit-hitting-the-shan event. But, there are lots of analysts and lots of opinions. The only sure thing about them is that those who do happen to make a correct prediction will darn well let you know that they did and there is never a word about the ones they got wrong. Ah well, and so it goes and so it goes.....

TownCrierGoldilox, on being "IN" or "OUT"#1344377/27/05; 12:57:32

Saw your question to Belgian.

By way of interjecting an answer, please allow me to pose a question that might help you see through what you currently sense to be, in your words, "contradictory":

If you allow yourself to step back and look at the big picture, wouldn't you agree that the U.S. Treasury (and Fed) policy of holding gold at a fictional $42 per oz price/value is, in fact, an example of the "dollar bloc" acting to effectively isolate gold OUT of the reserve equation?

CBs that Mark to Market, on the other hand, have elected to have it IN.

In the non-consensus battleground meanwhile, as long as the derivative-based pricing paradigm is maintained in functioning order, the dollar bloc can enjoy the spoils of victory because, effectively, the MTM faction are 'trapped' into making use of gold pricing which is quite nearly as fictitious as the $42 benchmark in use by the United States.

The important thing to remember, however, is that the M-T-Marketeers know that they are only 'trapped' in a fiction by a feeble house of cards which persists only so long as they cooperate in its support.

It is fair to conclude that gold still remains cheap today, under the derivative-pricing paradigm, only because a smooth transition in the underlying reserve structure is in EVERYbody's best interest, and it takes awhile to get the various partners in good position. The final throw, however, will probably be a doozy.


Gandalf the WhiteNice WATERFALL today in the US $ chart !#1344387/27/05; 14:27:40


Topaz@Rich.#1344397/27/05; 14:30:28

Yup, I found myself playing around with it too, was able to locate my first post in no time flat ...but you're right Rich, it needs a lot of refinement. (not a mechanism I'd be prepared to pay $200/share for though ;-)

The thing to remember with these spreads is - we're in "virgin country" now, so expert opinion based on yesterdays assumptions can truly be discounted. This thing could and will do anything.
$60/Oil, Fed rates etc, ALL point to a massive effort to delay a Deflationary Collapse ...but the Market and increasingly alt officialdom, will have none of it.

We watch.

Belgian@Goldilox#1344407/27/05; 14:45:37

Euro goldsales "contradictory" >>> ON THE SURFACE !!!
Indeed, on the surface, Sir (or is it Lady ?)

As a long time forum visitor, you certainly have been reading all the arguments + questions about this superficial contradiction (paradox). TC's answer is somewhat of a final conclusion on the whole debate...that never went deep enough in my opion.

But this is not the only paradox. The dollar block demanding a re-valuation of Asian currencies, is another one of these paradoxes. Who wants to devalue its currency ($) that has world reserve status ?

But the artificial euphoria of the yuan-dollar unpegging seems very shortlived ! Could it be that the dollar, circulating outside the US teritory, has a new master !?
Have gold-reserves sufficiently been re-distributed as to take over the dollar's reserve function under a MTM regime of these gold reserves !?
For how long do have euro gold-commitments (gold sales-leasing-redistribution) to remain goldprice accomodative as to provide "liquidity" in the gold market ?
Liquidity means : Enough goldmetal in commitment as to have a deep enough contract goldmarket for convenient goldprice purposes.
Note that Snow recently stated that his dollar-confidence is entirely based on the "dept" that the market for the dollar has been building (worldwide) during decades.

Do you remember what Greenspan said about the goldprice (=out) and what Duisenberg said about gold reserves (in) !?

But FED and ECB keep on meeting each other...certainly in Bazel (BIS). It is from here that the gold paradoxes originate. Bear in mind that the "W" in WAG-I-II stands for Washington. "W"hat a paradox, again.

A final thought for today : Just think about the volume of goldmetal (tonnes) that was appropiate under the old fixed goldprice standard and the volume (new volumes) that are appropiate to function as a reserve under the MTM regime of a modern physical goldmarket. Than the theory of gold reserve re-distribution will make much more sense to you.
Goodnight from Antwerp.

R PowellTopaz#1344417/27/05; 14:54:13

I can agree with you 100% on the predictive ability of the "experts". Almost weekly I read short essays dealing with many commodities. Many will outline the basic existing supply, estimated current crop (or expected production) and examine demand. Often they quote the same facts (USDA reports, etc.) and then reach entirely different conclusions. And so it goes and so it goes. So much for the experts.

"This time it's different" is never true but it's also never quite the same as last time either, is it? There are too many veriables, too many unknowns and too many unknowables.

What a wonderful puzzle we study! IMHO, we'll never definitively fiqure it out nor can anyone else entirely figure it out. And, if we should ever show some really good profits in the old trading account, then we'll probably make the mistake of thinking that we knew (and still know) more than we do...! I have done this and still don't know if I was reading the markets correctly OR was just lucky! May I recommend "Fooled by Randomness" as an examination of this theory.

As for our friends, gold and silver, it appears the narrow summer trading range continues for now. I also watch the price of copper for an indication as to the health of the "global" economy. What's coming next week? I haven't a clue! (G)

GoldiloxMTM conundrum#1344427/27/05; 15:15:29

@ Belgian,

My guess is that the US demanded China revaluation not for the benefit of the $ reserve, but to quiet the elecctorate calling for their heads as jobs continue to emigrate at a Niagara Falls flow rate. They got just what they expected - a token revaluation with some political ammo attached, but a flat line response in the currency market.

My original question was "Why do you call the CBs that are selling gold "gold friendly"? Maybe the answer is that I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1344437/27/05; 15:36:44">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Wednesday Market Excerpts

July 27 (from DowJones) -- Gold futures settled higher Wednesday as an ease in the dollar gave the yellow metal some bounce.

COMEX August gold futures settled up $1.30 at $424.80.

The contract dipped lower at the open and touched its lowest level in a week at $421.80 but bounced midway through the session as the dollar fell against the euro.

Aside from tracking the moves of the dollar, traders said main feature of the session was the rolling of positions from August to October and December.

First notice day is Friday.

Analysts at MKS Finance said in the near term, gold seems comfortable in the $422-$428 range.

The company noted in a daily report: "$422 remains an important support level, while a breach of $428 is unlikely in the absence of fresh news.

"Physical demand is considerable these days, and funds interest is emerging on any dip. We therefore believe the yellow metal might have seen the lows for now and stick to our long term bullish view."

On the options side, George Gero of Legg Mason, said about 151,852 options came due on Wednesday of which 17,341 were exercised and became August futures.

"About 134,511 were worthless. So we lost about half in options which is a minor relief because it has been an overhang on the market," Gero noted.

GoldendomeExcited!#13444407/27/05; 15:57:25

Well, this question has probably been asked a million times here, but all this chatter about more European Gold sales has me all excited!! So-- here we go with the question for the million and oneth time: Why has the U.S. never sold any of it's gold holdings (that we are aware of)??

Are we trying to pull an old fakeroo? Keeping our gold-- by implication makes our dollar "good as gold"? Just like the old days pre "33 and then pre "71.

GoldiloxUSA gold sales#13444507/27/05; 16:31:31

@ Goldendome,

Thanks for asking. I think it has been covered, but it is kinda the direction I was going with my question.

miner49erGoldilox - CB sales#13444607/27/05; 16:37:01

Hey GLox! How goes it?

My interpretation of this has always been that the gold selling by "gold-friendly" CBs is not contradictory, as it is necessary to provide enough physical gold to the market to provide credibility to a lot of paper gold selling, which although lots settles in paper, some requires settlement in metal.

Why do GF CBs want to "sell" gold, or support extensive paper short side trades that suppress the price?

If they did not, then the USD faction could probably have its cake and eat it, too. They could control a gradual devaluation of the dollar, on their terms, and see it finally manifest in the current paper gold markets by seeing a price rise to some magical but manageable number like $600-$1000 over time.

This would provide the gradual letting off of inflationary-pressure steam, and keep the current pricing regime in effect, as this type of work would not risk the papers' credibility. Hand in hand would be the secured cooperation of enough oil producers, either by diplomacy or domination, to keep the POO in lock step with all of this. Thus, the pain of some inflation over a few years will play itself out hopefully like the 70s, ultimately with a reversal back to strong dollar dynamics and a cap on further POG/POO rises, and ideally another round of gradual declines as the USD gathers strength again. The end result is a still-intact USD, still likely to be the dominant currency, with all of the USD benefits, and all of the non-USD drawbacks still driving the operating dynamic.

This is the desire of the USD policy makers.

GF CBs on the other hand, don't want to see POG rise to say the magical $600-$1000 dollar level in a nice orderly path, as this will only prolong the onset of a gold-pricing regime determined predominantly by settlement with the metal (the chief property of the "free-gold" concept).

GF CBs will continue to strategically sell -- according to the Washington Agreement -- and make efficient hay out of every ounce. They know that each ounce delivered ultimately finds many times its volume in gold sales, and these sales will beat back every last effort for the price to rise.

The hope here is that ultimately, the inflationary pressures becoming manifest in goods and services will begin to reveal the incredulity of the gold price -- its failure to hedge dollar devaluation, which is perhaps its most important raison d'etre, and begin to discredit the gold markets as we know them.

That is the principal reason why this line of thinking does not believe in a squeeze as the ultimate end to the current paradigm, but a falling away from disuse. The market will not fail up, but down. (Not to say it won't go up some more, just that it ultimately fails down.) And concurrent to this will be the sudden awareness that gold settled in physical bullion will not have faded, but will begin an ascent commensurate with a more accurate reflection of supply-demand dynamics, which had been artificially skewed and concealed from years of domination by paper-settled (paper-inflated) trading.

So, might someone(s) call the bluff of all these shorts? This leads us to another discussion, which the Trail, the HOF, and the Archives have hashed over ad infinitum. Essentially, if someone wants to call on a large amount of physical through a paper arena, what happens if the seller fails? The price burps, the markets change the rules in a desperate attempt to stop the crisis, trading becomes restricted, cash settlement becomes the order of the day, and everyone lines up waiting for his/her chance to stake their claim.

In this scenario, the price of physical metal would begin to soar as the metal's scarcity is exposed. Contract holders, seeing that they have a long wait before some cash settlement is worked out that will only reflect some officially set (and far too low) price, will bail on their contracts at (euro?) pennies to the dollar. Many will begin chasing a physically-settled gold price, but will be frustrated all the way.

And then after the fact, someone(s) brings a lawsuit. So, a few years later a settlement is reached that might have been satisfactory if they got the settlement on day 1, but the value of the settlement in real terms at this point would be a fraction of what they would have needed to have kept up. ...that is, if they win at all... ...and that is, if they can even manage to bring it to trial...

So finally, GF CBs have a lot of latitude to sell gold, as they anticipate an increase in its value vastly more than satisfactory to offset these sales. If selling a few hundred tonnes over a few years keeps things stable -- at least until all the favored participants are favorably positioned -- then it's gold well spent.

So my take on it all, fwiw...

GoldendomeThanks for asking!!!!#13444707/27/05; 16:41:10

I'm glad that you've all asked: Hey, Goldendome, How's the economy look from your windows on the world? "Ok, do you want my answer, or some lyin statistics from the government? ......Ok, looks pretty dam grim!"

Pepsi salesman stops in today. "How's business?" asks he. Before I can even get a word out, he says, "Pretty slow, isn't it? The whole month of July."

Astonished by his negative candor (this guy usually is the fountain of youthful optimism) I replied, "Yah, I noticed it right after the fourth. Seems like everyone went camping and never came back."

"It's everyone in this area, he said. Hell, even Wal-Mart's down."

"What's the reason they give in your meetings?" I ask.
"Oh, they're blaming it on us, he said. We're not out there doing our jobs."

"I'll give you my opinion and you can take it back to your next sales meeting, for what it's worth: People are just running out of money. Hell, you put $30.00 worth of gasoline in your 15 year old Toyota Corolla and a lot of these folks here, don't have much left. So they aren't buying pop or anything else in some cases.

"Think so?" He asked.

"I know so! You'd be amazed how many credit card runs now are being rejected by the companies. All the time, I'm running these things through the machine and it's popping up with an authorization declined message. Then, I just hope they don't then want to write a check, because if they aren't paying the credit card, they probably don't have much in checking either.

I'll tell you this, anyone who doesn't think that gasoline prices are affecting and hurting the economy is nuts, in my opinion. I'm looking for even the lying Government economic statistics for July to start their descent into hell."

"I get a kick out of you, he laughs. You're so negative."

"Just the facts, man. And you asked for them."

GoldiloxThe Quest for FED Neutrality - Jim Willie CB#13444807/27/05; 16:42:50


"In my opinion, and bear in mind this is only my conjecture, founded upon a mix of professional analysis and personal judgment from many years of observation, the USFed has an unspoken goal which in no way does it wish to be made public. This view is hardly conspiratorial, but rather extremely practical. The US Economy has as its faulty foundation the housing sector. The vulnerability to our national economy, its vibrancy, its financial health is unspeakable and enormous.

As the USFed has raised short-term interest rates over a stretch of 14 months, the adjustable mortgage rate (ARM) has gradually risen. Owing to the Bond Conundrum, the long-term interest rates have remained tame, in defiance to Greenspan. For whatever reasons, actually thoroughly covered in my past writings, long-term rates have permitted the fixed mortgage rate to be roughly the same as a year ago. Ten basis points is insignificant to bring down the housing superstructures. The consequence to mortgages from the Fed tightening has been convergence of the ARM to the fixed mortgage rate, possibly their objective.

It is my contention that the USFed march toward neutrality is achieved when ARMs are nearly equal to fixed mortgage rates. That is their unstated goal. At that point, homeowners can swap into fixed mortgages, lock their rates, and protect themselves from a potentially higher interest rate environment. It would be painful enough if housing prices go into decline. It would be doubly painful if household monthly costs were to rise at the same time, a doubly whammy to their balance sheets and monthly budgets.

In no way can Chairman Greenspan openly reveal this objective in monetary neutrality. That would be tantamount to an admission that the entire national economy rested atop a housing bubble. We all realize it, but cannot be told this. We all know the risks and danger when a structure is built atop unstable moorings. It has no foundation and no capstone. Watch for the Mad Maestro, the Pied Piper, the Wizard of Oz, the blatant charlatan, to urge homeowners into a swap from ARM to fixed mortgages. His urge to swap in fixed contracts will be the signal in my view that the Fed tightening cycle is at an end, and neutrality will be proclaimed. We need new measuring sticks when a nation has negative savings, when an entire economy is debt dependent and highly reliant upon inflating assets. Old tested meters cannot be applied. New meters can be loosely stated, provided not too much laughter ensues. Credibility must be maintained in order to preserve confidence in the absurd system. But the real meter comes from the basement bowels of the burgeoning housing bubble and its shifting sands of financial foundation. A hundred more questions can be offered to the table on the quest for neutrality, and the impact of its inevitable failed pursuit. Many are covered in my Hat Trick Letter, where such issues are regularly discussed. The Fed ain't done hiking. They ain't done doing damage. They clearly march to the beat of a psychotic drummer.



Darn good question. I have noticed it, along with the conspicuous absence of chatter about the Islamic Gold Dinar, possibly put to rest by the devastation of the December tsunami. Pure purpose driven media, IMHO, that global issues completely disappear from the limelight with no spoken resolution.

ToolieForbes: A Golden Solution To The China Syndrome?#13444907/27/05; 17:08:57

Snip: Dominating the gold market would offer a number of benefits to China. It offers a viable alternative to buying more U.S. Treasury debt. It allows them to set the rate of return on their gold investment, much as De Beers sets the price of diamonds. However, their control of prices would be even stronger since a net buyer role is much stronger than the De Beers role as a seller. In fact, once China let its newly assumed role in gold become known, a worldwide gold rush would commence, driving prices well above current levels. China will not be able to take control until well into this initial rush. Over time, other nations would join China in again holding gold as a way to reduce their dollar exposure. (end snip)

Looks like free gold, minus the inevitable paper tsunami

GoldendomeMiner goes outside the box, again!#13445007/27/05; 17:14:36

49er: Nice to hear from you again. This reminds me,I believe, of some things that you have written in days past [check archives]. Nice to see you still reminding us of how things may evolve. Interesting! Maybe, maybe, it will happen as you say.
osa104cGET PHYSICAL (metal in hand)#13445107/27/05; 17:35:07

Day after day, lots of thought provoking, insightful and many times, down right informative information. Leads me into my segway::...OK, I am thoroughly informed and well advised with regards to owning the physical....need input (opinions) as to mining and precious metal mutual funds....I'm just a standard JOE....Is / are China and shortly India going to be disposing of those burdensome $'s, via laundering them with large investments in mining operations throughout the US and abroad?
Sundeck@otish mountain #134429 Yuan peg#13445207/27/05; 19:07:29

Thanks Sir OM...I'll plow through HCK Liu and see what I can "liu" of TC's more condensed account, you might say (ouch!)...(frightened off by the cob-webs, indeed!!)


Max RabbitzGold is the Moral Enemy of ....#13445307/27/05; 21:26:42

all fiat currencies, Euro and Yuan included. Why would any banker voluntarily give up the power to finance at will? These are just different games of confusion the brother bankers are playing. Mark to market and 15% reserve backing means what? Very little. Just gives you a choice between slots and the roulette wheel. Power and control remain with the house. This game is getting old, at least for me, probably others. It seems as if the entire western world is in denial of major changes to come. There will be challenges from other "civilizations" with more "vigor" and less to lose.

In a Democracy people seem to think that they should have opinions about everything, and that their opinions should hold equal weight with all others, irrespective of their knowledge, work, or abilty. This seems rather unbalanced and not sustainable.

I'm currently reading "Lincoln" an historical novel by Gore Vidal. Vidal is rather a rascal but entertaining and orignial. There are similarities to today and the Patriot Act, Habeous Corpus (an English custom for you Europeans) being suspended in some States. Lincoln was a bit more severe than Bush but perhaps the danger was more acute. We shall see. I still prefer gold to silver but sometimes question my judgement.

GoldiloxEnemy Gold#13445407/27/05; 22:02:05

@ Max,

I'm right with you on this one. My favorite Orwellian term lately is Bush's "Ownership Society", as we are quickly moving toward a society where the corporate state "owns" and directs all commerce.

OK, you have title, but if the property taxes are run up by ballooning prices, the result is permanent "rent" for everyone. Watch the favorite son campaign donors start lobbying for "reduced" property taxes or "exemptions", as the casinos in Reno have already done.

BelgianIndeed Sir Miner49er#13445507/28/05; 01:01:29


And we mean those fast growing stashes of TRILLIONS of dollar-units, that are SURPLUSSES, outside the US !!!
How does one keep those icebergs cooled (HEDGED) day after day !?

The "only" hedge that is damned, the goldprice. The one that must remain glorified is the further expansion of all dollar units under whatever form (stockmarkets-bonds-derivatives-etc)

You briefly described the present modus vivendi (compromise) of the gold-pricing. I do agree with your view.
But...what if "some" CBs don't wish to play this half harted goldpricing game anymore !? If paper-gold hedging evolves from a low cost insurance to an insurance at very high cost !? A dollar devaluation that goes faster than the goldprice hedge, and ineffectiviness of the hedge caused by a voluntary dry up of the provided liquidity (CBs).

A relative strong dollar simply guarantees the continued growth of the Trillions of dollar surplusses (systemic), outside the US (Asia). Let us not forget the petro-dollars surplusses.
And all this (onesided $-surplusses growth) is happening against the background of a stagnant world GDP. Whilst CB goldreserves are not functioning as a hedge on a continious basis.

But all other $-hedging possibilities seem to become exhausted ! Do you remember that some CBs even suggested to put eventual goldsales revenu at work in the stockmarket and add stocks to the reserves.
And how must all those TRILLIONS stored in the tens of thousands funds remain hedged for the loss of their purchasing power...once price hyperinflation breaks loose in an environment of economical stagflation (POO-!) ?

The "failure to hedge" will become "general" and open (break open) the gate of freegold.
Also note that the entire globe is in the ban (stuck) of the interest rate conondrum. Far from a positive, no.

Thanks miner49er

GoldiloxRussia's gold, foreign currency reserves down $100 million in 1 week#1344567/28/05; 07:15:16


MOSCOW, July 28 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's gold and foreign exchange reserves have dropped by $100 million in one week, the Central Bank's press office said.

As of July 22, 2005 the reserves totaled $142 billion, down from $142.1 billion on July 15.


I wonder if that's due to depreciation or "raiding the cookie jar"?

Topaz@Belgian.#1344577/28/05; 07:16:26

The 15T you mentioned, (I assume you refer to an ECB tranche for July under WAG 11?) is far too short to absorb demand imo.
The 60T in June coming late on the scene did wonders for PoG (via Comex) and we now wait in breathless anticipation for FND on the Aug Contract.
40K on the first sounds nice ;-))...
...and Silver WoW!! ...even though our July Contract has gone to God, we still have Today and Tomorrow for Deliveries ...could get REAL exciting!!

mikalThursday Headline Parade#1344587/28/05; 10:23:28

Greenspan Era's Legacy: Less Saving, More Debt - Moscow Times
U.S. House Approves Central American Trade Agreement - Bloomberg
How today's kindly credit conditions could soon turn cruel - FT ($)[Credit conditions ARE cruel but will become unspeakable.]
Wall Street warns of derivative risks - FT ($)[At least someone's not afraid of the D word.]
China's Yuan Decision May Not Change Things Much - Berry, Bloomberg[Maybe a rogue event will decide for them?]
Citigroup cut to neutral - CBS Marketwatch
GM finance arm warns it could cut lending - FT ($)[GM knows it will practically halt lending.]
Euro area June M3 up 7.5 pct vs 7.3 pct in May - AFX [IMO, these levels of inflated money supply may be drawing to an end.]
Shanghai property market hit by govt controls - Asia BusTimes [A foretaste of stagflation perhaps.]
Beijing nervous over rural economy - FT [Funny, I thought it was the city slickers that called the shots]

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R PowellConumdrum Continues#1344607/28/05; 16:11:29

Today's close gives the 5 year note yield at 4.044% and the 10 year yield at 4.196%. This leaves a difference of 0.152 OF ONE PERCENT. Would you lend your money for 10 years rather than five for an added premium of 0.152 of one percent?

I'm fascinated by this ongoing situation and I'm as confused as the Greenman (probably much more so, no?) as to why this occuring. Can anyone give me any information, no matter how basic, on these yields, what influences them and what the yields may portend? I talked at length years ago with Hillbilly but he's no longer here and, unfortunately, I never did reach even a basic level of understanding of this issue.

Nice day today for the metals bulls. I believe copper may have set a multi year (if not all-time?) high. Not bad for gold + silver too! There's an old saying..."never short a quiet market". Sometimes the old sayings prove noteworthy....and sometimes not. Sometimes chicken and sometimes just feathers. Today...chicken!

YGMGATA is Making Bigger Waves w/ Goldrush21 in Dawson City, Yukon#1344617/28/05; 16:11:43

We all know the struggle GATA has endured for the last 5 years, but now it appears the tide will turn. With the numbers of high profile Gold Advocates speaking in Dawson over the two day gathering in Dawson City Aug. 8/9th, we now have TV coverage coming to the party. Personally as always I'm 110% behind Bill & Chris's untiring efforts on behalf of Gold advocates and investors. Now we may see some rays of media exposure to all those years of hard work and no small amount of critics. Speakers and attendies are coming from many corners of the world, including Russia and United Arab Emirates. "Go GATA"...YGM

"Note from Bill Murphy"...

On the Gold Rush 21 front, the Canadian Broadcasting TV (national) and Radio contacted GATA and plans to cover our conference. They will be joining a Mexican TV crew, which will be covering Hugo Salinas Price's presentation. Hugo's speech will be covered live via satellite to Mexico.

TownCrierPension woes take gold out of golden years#1344627/28/05; 16:20:55,2565,ALBQ_19839_3958249,00.html

July 27, 2005 -- Nary a week goes by without some discouraging news on the retirement front. Last week was no exception.

The least distressing development emerged on Monday from Standard & Poor's, which evaluated the pension plans of the 369 S&P 500 companies that sponsor defined-benefit retirement plans. By S&P's calculations, the plans were underfunded to the tune of $164 billion at the end of last year, making them not much healthier than they were at the end of 2003, when the deficit was $165 billion.

...The last bit of dark retirement news came Wednesday from another S&P 500 constituent, Unisys. The information-technology-services firm reported a second-quarter loss of $27.1 million.

Unisys made it clear it would have reported a profit of $4.1 million were it not for a pretax pension expense of $45.8 million. Sure, there was weak demand for Unisys servers and some troubles with outsourcing contracts, but "excluding pension expense, we posted a small profit in the quarter," said President and CEO Joseph W. McGrath.

I'm sure the hubris of McGrath's explanation of the loss was not lost on Unisys employees. They probably weren't expecting their fearless leader to mention the fact that Unisys Chairman Lawrence A. Weinbach, whose salary was $1.4 million last year, will receive an annual pension of $1 million under the terms of an employment contract he signed in April 2004. Weinbach will serve as chairman through January.

Since Weinbach joined the company in 1997, Unisys shareholders have endured an average annual loss on their investment of nearly 11 percent.

^----(from url)----^

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USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1344637/28/05; 17:32:36">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Thursday Market Excerpts

July 28 (from MarketWatch) -- Gold futures climbed Thursday to close at their highest levels in a month, extending gains from the previous session with traders monitoring moves in the dollar and keeping watch on the latest economic indicators.

"Several key factors have come together for an up move in gold," said Peter Grandich, editor of the Grandich Letter.

"Open interest on the Comex has shrunk to levels where previous rallies have started," he said.

Moreover, "gold has held key support at $416 and continues to rise in the face of a strong U.S. dollar," Grandich said, adding that the yellow metal "has done all this during the weakest seasonal period."

COMEX August gold contracts closed at $427.40, up $2.60. December gold closed up $2.70 at $433.30.

On Thursday, the dollar was mixed against major foreign currencies. Strength in the dollar often weakens demand for gold, while a fall in the greenback can spur buying for the metal. For now, "the metals markets aren't yet convinced that the dollar rally is over, but once that happens, I expect to see sharply higher gold and silver prices," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities.

----(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire, market quotes)----

TownCrierFunds stash money in gold market#1344647/28/05; 17:38:18

July 29, 2005 - 7:44AM -- Gold futures settled higher and near a one-month peak as funds stashed more money in the market after a drop in the US dollar made the metal a more attractive investment, dealers say.

Investment funds and brokers sought out gold in heavy trading volume after a rise in the euro above $1.21, from below $1.20 late on Wednesday, and as speculators completed a week of contract rollover in gold futures.

Dealers said they now were bracing for a slew of US economic data on Friday which could give markets a jolt.

NYMEX crude oil futures surged for the fourth time in five sessions, ending just below $US60 as refineries would likely scramble to cope with high gasoline demand, traders said

^----(from url)----^

TownCrierGold-Euro delinkage creates new market dynamic#1344657/28/05; 17:44:35

(Engineering News) 2005/07/29 -- Gold market guru and AngloGold Ashanti marketing director Kelvin Williams said yesterday that a significant dislocation had been seen in the relationship between the precious metal, the dollar and the euro over the June quarter.

Speaking at the world's number-two gold producer's second-quarter results presentation, Williams said that the 'interesting behaviour' was not immediately evident in the statistics, which had remained relatively flat, but that the sympathetic relationship between the euro and gold had definitely been dislodged over the last three months.

If the previous pattern had been sustained, the dollar-gold price should have depreciated by about 10% to around $400/oz in sympathy with the weaker euro, which declined in the face of a resurgent dollar. Instead it remained firmly above the $420 level, ending the quarter at $427/oz, Williams pointed out.

He said that the gold market during the June quarter had been helped by the increase in the net long positions on the New York Comex, which rose from 6-million oz at the end of May to 18-million oz at the end of June.

Since June that long position had halved, but had only had a $15 impact on the price, which remained above the $420/oz level.

He argued that the break between the way gold traded in relation to the world's two major currencies was significant, but admitted that opinions were divided about the relationship going forward.

^-----(see url for full article)---^

MKFor the record#1344667/28/05; 19:12:01

By Michael Kosares
Centennial Precious Metals, Denver
Sunday, April 3, 2005

No sooner had this Market Update featured a report on official-
sector gold sales last week than the European Central Bank (ECB)
announced a surprise: It had sold 47 tonnes of gold. The sales
occurred between February 1 and March 11. The ECB also stated that
its gold sales were now complete for the year.

In this era of supposed transparency in the official financial
sector, one wonders why the primary central bank in Europe, the most
powerful signatory in the European Central Bank Gold Agreement,
would conduct a sale clandestinely, announcing it after the fact.

The bigger question is why the ECB felt compelled to sell gold at

Europe doesn't have a huge balance-of-payments problem as the United
States does. It's not at war. Europe doesn't have a lack of currency
reserves to tap for foreign payments. So why liquidate gold when the
dollar is in severe trouble and gold is on the rise?

Forty-seven tonnes is a large amount to liquidate over so short a
time (less than 45 days), and the sales no doubt damaged the gold
price even though the intent of the Central Bank Gold Agreement is
to prevent such stealth attacks on gold. In fact, the London Times
linked the sales "to sharp drops and recoveries" in the gold price
over the period.

To most observers the gold price seemed no worse for wear. Gold
started February in the low $420s and reached its high for the
period in the mid-$440s in March at about the time the ECB was
winding up its gold sales. What might the gold price have done had
the ECB kept its 47 tonnes in the vault? Would gold have gone
through the important $450 figure? Or $460? Even $500 if it had
gotten on a roll?

Not knowing what prompted the ECB to sell suddenly, we can only
speculate as to what might have been going on behind the scenes. Was
some bullion bank in trouble? Was there a severe shortage in the
upper reaches of the gold market that had to be filled on a moment's
notice? Just prior to the sales Germany had announced its refusal to
sell more gold, Switzerland had concluded its sales, and France was
supplying far less gold to the market than expected. Was the ECB
moving to fill the breach?

Leaving aside the ECB's agenda, its gold sales are not without
repercussions. They send the wrong message at the wrong time.

Europe and the euro are already reeling under significant
alterations to the stability pact, which restricted budget deficits
and created the impression that the ECB's member states were willing
to make sacrifices for the economic stability of the union. Gold
originally was added as a component of ECB reserves to give
credibility to the new currency and substance to the claim that the
euro would become a rival to the dollar.

By selling gold reserves, the ECB calls that commitment into
question and fuels criticism that the euro and the ECB are no better
than the dollar and the Federal Reserve. The other day an editorial
in the Financial Times went so far as to say that "the euro does not
have much to recommend it, other than not being the dollar."

Mysterious, ungrounded, and seemingly inexplicable and unnecessary
gold sales are not likely to alter that assessment.

The Financial Times went on to say that problems with the dollar,
yen, and euro present good reasons for selling all three currencies.
The likely beneficiaries, in the newspaper's view? Gold and the
Chinese renminbi.

Since we may have to wait years for China to revalue its currency,
that leaves gold as the last solid repository for savings -- nothing
new for the metal of kings and the king of metals.

GoldendomeR. Powell, our inverting yield curve#1344677/28/05; 19:33:05

As to your question: Why is the Conundrum in interest rates continuing, with the real possibility of an inverted curve?

Some believe it a sign of impending recession.

Richard Duncan, author of The Dollar Crisis, has a different take. He feels it relates to supply/demand dynamics of the U.S. dollar and long term dollar denominated securities.

In the linked article, Duncan makes the point that currently the U.S. is in an anomalous situation where we are shipping huge amounts of dollars abroad through the current account deficit, while at the same time the current federal budget deficit has been in a shrinking phase, if only temporarily. Therefore, in simple economic terms there are too many dollars chasing to few dollar denominated securities. Too many buyers are pushing up the long term issues forcing the rates lower, as they search for a place to park dollars.

Agree or disagree-- but another possible explanation. See the article with accompanying charts. Think I first linked it here last month when John Mauldin first issued it.

R PowellGoldendome#1344687/28/05; 20:01:47

Too many dollars looking for a home would indeed bid up the bonds driving down the rates.

And investors are favoring the 10 years over the five years (even though they yield almost the same) enough so that the curve is flattening? I guess it would work that way until they reach parity if time if not an important consideration.

Many analysts say that a flattening curve inplies trouble ahead. I guess if money can find no better investment than low yielding bonds, and if those investors are right that there are no better places to invest large sums of money, then maybe we are entering the twilight zone (trouble ahead). But equities are finally showing some strength....Dow and S+P....maybe just too much money looking for a place. I wish I had such problems.

If this is an accurate assessment, then maybe we'll see just how much the big money holders rely upon wealth stored in gold in times of trouble...?
Thanks for the thoughts..Any more??

GoldiloxShrinking Deficit?#1344697/28/05; 22:58:11

@ Goldendome.

I think Mr. Duncan has been reading too many "Reader's Digest" condensed budget reports. The "official" deficit is only shrinking by virtue of the soaring off-budget items being ignored. Plofligate spending continues unabated.

The Highway, Allocations, and Energy bills also attest to no serious attempts at frugality, with record pork attached to each succeeding bill!

GoldiloxInverted Curve conundrum#1344707/28/05; 23:08:12

People speak of the "inverted curve conundrum" like its some measure of the "open market". What a crock!

When 90+% of the issuances are gobbled up by three or four CB's and an anonymous "friend" from the Caribbean "bank havens", I submit that a half dozen phone calls would clear this up completely. Not that Sir AG or Snowman would ever divulge those calls . . .

Not unlike the recent release that 75% of all stock transactions are now "program" trades.

Now wonder Morgan Stanley is adding 1000 brokers to the bone pile. It's all managed by the "Nobel-Prize winning" algorithms, with the soon-to-be-extinct retail investor just tagging along "for the ride".

Goldendome Sir Goldilox let's hear your insights on the Conundrum#1344717/28/05; 23:22:51

Sir Glox: Not knowing him (Richard Duncan) of course, but I'm certain this fellow has been round enough to know fact from fiction on Gov't spending. To be sure, he would agree with you, that spending and debts are way over the official amts. He didn't write the book, "The Dollar Crisis" without knowing a lot about the problems. Have you read the book? Undoubtedly, you have heard rumblings that the official Federal deficit will probably by lower this year, no? So-why pooh-pooh the man when he presents what is in print and on the charts?

The point that he makes in the article that is linked earlier, merely is an attempt and his stab at possibly explaining why interest rates on the long end are no longer acting as the Fed. might expect and desire. He further delves into the reason now, that this is happening and that rates may be out of the Feds control. I thought it interesting that near the end of his article, he sets a scenario where foreign CB's could end up owning all the treasuries in about 5 years!

OK--tell us, oh Golden one, what's your theory or explanation on the Bond Conundrum, that Rich asked about?

Topaz@Rich.#1344727/29/05; 00:56:09

Today - Chicken ...Tomorrow - one scary Canary!
With 175 contracts ...25odd T through the turnstiles yesterday ("after" the contract had expired ie: clearly "leftovers") we're STILL not done with Ag July imo.

Call me the eternal optimist but I'm thinkin Tomorrow (your Friday) might well be a definitive moment for PoS.

Credit/Debt ...Credit is the reality and Debt is the mirage. Reality is about to come knocking and the perfect reflection in the pool Adonis was so besotted with is soon to be grotesquely disfigured.
The Long Bond is there already (at Zero)...the 10 will follow suit, as will the 5 etc.

Gold and Silver will benefit ...but NOT necessarily reflective (for debt is the reflection) in the price.

We Watch.

GoldiloxMy theory?#1344737/29/05; 01:13:56

I thought I gave it in the last post. With only a hand full of serious bond purchasers, most of whom just "happen" to win the "most likely to welcome Snow to our town" award, it seems unlikely that this subject is not a high priority topic at their regular closed meetings.

The other thing to remember is that the FED itself acts as "broker" for foreign CBs. How then, with so much communication between themselves the purchasers, can Snow and Sir AG NOT know why they are buying the short and long term bonds in quantities to effect the inversion.

Maybe it's considered "politically incorrect" at that level to ask why someone purchases one instrument over another, but if that's the case, why so many meetings, and what do they really talk about?

"My theory" is that AG and Snow know full well why, and perhaps even encourage the purchasing bias for reasons that I, personally, have no inside track to be informed of.

I don't claim to know why, but I seriously doubt that THEY don't know why or even have some say in the choice. With all the collusion we see in different markets, is there any reason that the bond market should be free from it? That would be harder to believe than the tooth fairy, and just about as nepotistic!

krashAlan Greenspan Charged With Killing Off Middle Class, Setting Stage for Economic Collapse#1344747/29/05; 01:47:59

Satire from

Written by Felix

WASHINGTON-Alan Greenspan was arrested on Monday at the US Federal Reserve and formally charged with killing off large sections of the American middle class after police read the new book "Greenspan's Fraud" by best-selling
author and Economics Professor Ravi Batra.

"I have no regrets," snarled Greenspan as he was led away in handcuffs. "I was only following orders." Yet the Fed Chairman later broke down and confessed to the crimes, pleading guilty.

Greenspan has been killing off the middle class under a succession of US presidents from Ronald Reagan to George W. Bush, according to the new book. He helped extract trillions of dollars from the middle class to sharply
enrich the rich and big business. Greenspan catered to the rich and powerful to maintain his lavish appointment as Chairman of the Federal Reserve, helping them shape government and economic policy in their favor.

Batra explains how Greenspan's policies on Social Security, income tax cuts, and the minimum wage are reducing the middle class and leading toward
perilous times.

Strangely, even as he harmed the middle class and created many economic crises, Greenspan has been worshiped like an oracle or wizard, and adored because he was seen as saving America from various economic crises.

Although overall taxes have been reduced since Ronald Reagan, taxes have increased on the poor and been greatly reduced on the wealthy, in a robber baron taxation policy.

"Greenspan's fraud" is mainly a social security fraud which started in 1983 and continues until this day. It was based on Greenspan's desire to raise revenues for the government without raising overall income taxes, which had
been cut sharply mainly to benefit the rich in 1981. Instead of building up a trust fund with money invested on behalf of retired folks, it was used to reduce the Federal deficit.

From the beginning, the surplus from the social security trust fund was used to fund the operating expenses of the government, but that was not the intent of the original legislation. These funds were to be collected for
retirement, not for the government's expenses, but the government looted the Trust Fund surplus the moment it appeared. So Greenspan's fix for social security was a fraud because the public was convinced that the money would be saved in the trust fund while his intentions were to use additional social security revenues to balance the budget.

Greenspan also cut interest rates and sharply expanded credit and debt. Wages are the main source of demand. Productivity is the main source of supply. So when wage growth lags productivity growth, there is inadequate
demand. And so to shore up demand, debt must be created. Wages can be raised or debt can be created, but raising wages is something the establishment hates, and so they create more and more debt.

Thus people borrow huge amounts of money. The debt culture is so strong that despite wages lagging behind productivity, there is an explosion of demand, and so demand is ahead of supply, and that causes the enormous trade deficit in America. But in addition to the wage gap, the big reason for the US trade deficit is that the manufacturing base has been destroyed in the US, and one
reason for that is Greenspan's program of financial deregulation.

This financial deregulation enables foreign countries, particularly China and Japan, and foreign nationals to send money into America without any problems, which they couldn't do in the past. All that money coming into
America finances the trade deficit, and allows foreigners to buy government debt, making it possible for Americans to keep on consuming as much as they want. But in the process, because of the trade deficit, US manufacturing is
destroyed. And since the US doesn't manufacture much in America now, this trade deficit is really going to grow over time until there is some major disruption.

This process leads to sharply rising corporate profits initially, and such a profit rise creates a stock market bubble, which eventually crashes because one day debt growth slows down. After the recent stock market crash, Batra claims that Greenspan went back to his old machinations to create even more debt. He did that by slashing interest rates drastically.

The end result was the economy did stabilize but a real estate bubble developed in the process, and he thinks this bubble will also burst in the next two or three years or maybe even sooner. It is bound to burst because
since wages continue to lag productivity, exponential growth in debt is needed for demand-supply balance, and that is simply impossible. So he thinks the next bubble to pop will be the real estate bubble.

Batra believes the Iraq war has helped keep the economy going by way of increased spending. He thinks that the US government has now used almost all its defenses against a credit collapse. The 2000 stock market crash occurred
because of the falling government deficit. The government began to create a surplus in its budget, and because it shifted from a deficit to the surplus, there was a big fall in debt growth. There is a time when debt growth falls and then there is a crash.

Now they have re-inflated the market to another dose of debt creation. In fact there could soon be an inflationary depression resulting from a credit collapse all over the world. It would start out as a recession, but then
quickly evolve into a depression because of the bursting of the real estate bubble as well as the Dow.

Real estate is now a very serious problem, and Batra believes there is a real estate bubble now. In order to support the economy in the aftermath of a stock market crash,

All the increase in the price of houses has enabled households to borrow a lot more money on the basis of their home equity. They are digging themselves into more debt, which means that a larger and larger portion of
the income they are going to have to devote to servicing that debt is going to have to continue to rise.

What is more likely according to Batra is that there will be a housing default. There will be a crunch in the economy and the politicians will want debt forgiveness but the banks will not go along with that. A depression
could be worse than the 1930s. Because every market, every area is in an imbalance.

Batra thinks an inflationary depression is a bigger possibility than a major deflation. Inflation is picking up now. Consumer prices are rising at the rate of 4% or 5% per year, and so inflation is coming back. The dollar is
under pressure, so he thinks we are likely to see inflation along with a stagnant economy for the rest of this decade.

Batra doesn't think there is going to be a deflation, at least not prior to the collapse. He believes oil prices are going to stay high. Money supply will keep expanding because of Greenspan's policies, so he doesn't foresee a
deflationary scenario.

But he does think a housing collapse could lead to a deflationary collapse in the economy, two years or so after the housing collapse perhaps, but not right away.

Belgianmsg#134465 : € - $ - gold > DISLOCATION#1344757/29/05; 03:13:56

Gold market "guru" Kelvin Williams (AGA). What exactly is so guru-like on KW's observations ? What exactly is so "interesting" on this behavior ? What exactly do we have to understand under " sympathetic relationship between euro and gold" ?

If these observations promote one into guru-status...then how many gurus are there ?

Maybe KW should have a look at the gold/dollar-index chart.
Or,...the gold in yen chart.

We are all constantly watching/observing the behavioral sympathies/antipathies of the many different goldprices. But as non-gurus, we try to build theories around it. Why isn't "the" AGA guru providing us (his mine gold clients) some of these probable theories ? This question on itself is already cynical.

Maybe, the guru, should observe the sympathy/antipathy of the black gold (oil). If also found "interesting"...maybe he could explain what this particular changing relationship really means and if ther's possibly any connection to be made.

High time that those goldmining giants stop hiding behind their convenient gold-industry smokescreen and say what the real purpose is of the price/pricing of their product. But is it(gold)..."their"...product !? IT ISN'T !
This in sharp contrast with the state owners of black gold.
They obtained full pricing power. They decide about their sympathy/antipathy versus what (confetti) they exchange their black gold for.
Goldminers are forced to accept dollar-units and be very happy when they can stay profitable.

Ultimately it are the CBs who determine (mostly in concert)what the many different (multiple) purchasing powers of their respective confettis are.
That's why I keep on finding it suspicious that (the major) goldminers (their gurus) never comment thoroughly on CBs'policies (strategies and changing concepts). But it's funny to hear (read) that KW sees the 6 year old euro also as a "major" currency.

For the time being, the goldprice + its pricing will stick to the *** OFFICIAL *** (!!!) evolving (managed) level of (false) price-inflation that has to be accepted as genuine by the general public ! It is here that € and $ CBs do find each other, for as long as it lasts. This (imo) the simpliest explanation why the goldprice rose against all, (major)currencies (cfr. gold/dollar-index). This is NOT (yet) a new trend !!!

But...can the price of paper-gold-contracts (LBMA-comex-Tocom) continue to hedge the false public dollar depreciation (official price inflation) and at the same time hedge the enormous inflation of "dollar-digits", that are NOT backed with ever lower fractions of fiat ?

This is The real question for all goldmetal owners/holders...not for most of the goldminers of the world that operate in places where the currencies are dollar derivatives (pegs).

CBs are doing all they can to avoid the outbreak of general (hyper)price-inflation. The IR conodrums (USTB-30 yrs versus new € bonds-50 yrs) and the frozen POG for public confirmation! But WHY then are these incredible derivative volumes (BIS stats) for !? What exactly are these derivatives "ensuring" (notional Trillions) !? And how exactly has the (z)euro ensured its survival !?
Most Euroland savers are losing purchasing power on their savings, due to too low IRs versus fiat depreciation (price-infla=3,1%). Rising houseprices (and housing activity) cannot compensate this for ever (any longer). And then guru KW seems to be surprised that the goldpricers forgot (?) to bring POG down to $400.

We all know that the global growth and (price)stability pact(s) are a postponement of final reckoning. The main differences lie in the "anticipation" of the inevitable. Who (of the main currency blocks) anticipates how !?

That's WHY I would like to hear guru KW explain about sympathy and €-$-goldprice dislocation. What happened with the " $6 " range in the goldprice/pricing behavior ?
How long do we have to continue speculating on the real yuan basket peg ?

Why isn't guru KW remarking (commenting) the dramatic change in POO-POG changes...or on the rand exchange rate under wich the majority of his goldmining happens !?
What is then so "significant" about the postulated dislocation of €-$-goldprice !? What a very "selective" approach from an inside the goldbowl fish.

There definitely is a big picture, no !

SundeckEuro/gold dislocation?#1344767/29/05; 04:38:13*&fd=1&fm=1&fy=1995&ld=31&lm=12&ly=2005&y=daily&q=volume&f=png&a=lin&m=0&x=

Here is the price of gold in euros since 1995...I'd like someone (a guru perhaps??) to identify where the "dislocation" has occurred?

...mmmmm...perhaps in early 1996??...or was it back at the end of 1999?...or maybe at the beginning of 2002?...or it could be happening now?? Wowsers...come on all you gurus...where is the dislocation (and why)?


BelgianRavi Batra : reflexions#1344777/29/05; 06:30:58

Started reading Batra, more than 10 years ago. His observations are the ones of a "debt-driven" - "political economy" on a global scale. But...
In theory this type of d-d-p-e can go on for ever. Bubbles are created and can therefore be further inflated or deflated. It is when the amount of "market-driven-economy" is dwarfing in the whole complex of the economic system, that the many different throttles resort less and less desired reaction.

The present (global) housing bubble can easily continue if and when the general price inflation can be adjusted orderly. The housing bubble can also be deflated, soft and easy, when wages are orderly raised...wich is actually happening in Euroland.

Not one single force in what is left in/of the market economy is going to cause any crash, deliberately.

For the past 7 decades, w've been under-estimating the capacity of economic/financial management ! We still do this, today...while common sense rightly says that it cannot go on for ever. Our (desperate) search for breaking points, continues.

We cannot draw the line that divides the "moving" line between political and market driven economy and finance. But the amount of regulatory political economy/finance is certainly growing by the day at the cost of the market driven ec/fin and will therefore one day become completely ineffective. That's the moment that GENERAL hyper-inflation of everything will break out (inflare = increase in volume).
Batra never quite well explained how the outbreak of this hyper-infla could be postponed during all the years he was (correctly) observing world markets. Only A/FOA mentioned the inflation of the "digital" units that are being used to settle ec/fin. things. As if the debt trade (trade by debt exchange) was increasingly taken out of its original monetary context.

The global managers always knew very well what they were doing (managing). That's why Duisenberg stated that gold will always remain an important monetary asset at the birthday party of the euro fiat !!! The new kid on the block knew very well that the fiat reign is NOT for ever, when gold remained excluded from it. The new kid took its precautions, whilst the oldies still enjoy their superiority.

Batra ignores this build-in golden positive. He certainly finds it difficult to accept that the same who increasingly mis-managed the whole system are the same ones that will (have to) correct it. That's what is !

Less and less efforts will be wasted on any hardening of any fiat (confetti). Globally that is. We don't need hard money, don't we ! We simply need modern goldmetal for those who wish to consolidate wealth in a universal and undiluted (inflated-deflated) value. And w're gone need this concept globally, simply because the political economy has gone way too far !
Eurolanders were (historically) well placed to know this.

Main problem is that nobody accepts (sees) the total incompatability of gold and the dollar.
That's causing all the delays in the take off of freegold.

But the "real" price-inflation is already growing faster (exceeding) than the global economic growth. This brings us closer to the hyper-price-inflation, one step a day. Don't expect this to stop and turn around. Everything is being done (in vain) to slow this process down. Can we possibly measure the real growth of the total digit-units (not fiat units) versus the real economic growth without any reliable statistics ? It is because of the decades old increase in falsification of the stats, that the political economy could expand and soften all the currencies, permanently.

Soon, goldmetal will flow between citizen and state, back again. Just a matter of having the state deciding it.

Maneuvering towards some more orderly "official" price inflation, will avoid a catastrophic houseprice/housing crash. When IRs can be kept in check (and they will), the global economy will not crash catastrophically. Stockmarkets may have another (mini) crash as soon as it is clear that the rebound is guaranteed, swift and broadly based.
But the Asian factor will NOT go along with this permanent increase of western political economy (individu), wich is incompatible with their central planned economy (state).
The oil owning states don't see the advantages anymore of their cooperation with this western political economy (pricing power). Globalizing (democratizing à la West) the world is NOT a piece of cake. Another reason why the new modern freegold concept will be called upon for helping us out.

Thanks Krash.

Topazalt Gold.#1344787/29/05; 06:44:14

The name of the currency game seems to be "As Good as Gold?" ...not I, says the Euro, or the Swissie etc, in fact NONE of 'em want that millstone.
For the last 8 mths it's been 'ol Buck that has taken the G-as-G mantle as the alts (of which the Euro runs in lockstep) have fallen away.
Five Years of Euro/PoG netting 330, can we now expect 4yrs 4mths more of 425 Dollar/PoG ...and a altPoG run-up similar to that experienced by Buck?

I'd probably be able to live with that as A$/PoG has been comatose too long.

osa104cZero sUM#1344797/29/05; 08:45:50

personal income UP!!...04%.......household spending even ?? at (UP)...08%.........batter U P........flat and wakes before the free fALL....should we surmise NO inflation?? ....and jUSt keep fogging the mirror....
TownCrierNY gold sprints to 4-week high as dollar weakens#1344807/29/05; 09:16:42

NEW YORK, July 29 (Reuters) - Gold futures in New York shot up to a four-week high by midmorning on Friday, as investors moved into gold and out of the dollar despite reasonably positive U.S. economic data, dealers said.

Benchmark December gold at the New York Mercantile Exchange's COMEX division was up $2.80 at $436.10

^----(from url)----^

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Connect with the firm that can help distinguish you from the crowds#1344817/29/05; 09:40:16

TownCrierNewly updated Greenspan/Paul dialogue#1344827/29/05; 12:58:12

This 'Gilded Opinioin' page now contains the July 2005 Q&A exchange between Texas Rep. Ron Paul and Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan during the Hearing before the U.S. House of Representatives' Committee on Financial Services.

(excerpts of statements and Qs from Ron Paul):

To me, this system that we have today is a convenient way to default on our debt - to liquidate our debt after the inflationary scheme....

So my question is this: Is it not true that the paper system that we work with today is actually a scheme to default on our debt? And is it not true that, for this reason, that's a good argument for people not - eventually, at some day - wanting to buy Treasury bills because they will be paid back with cheaper dollars?

And, indeed, in our lifetime, we certainly experienced this in the late 1970s - that interest rates had to go up pretty high and that this paper system serves the interests of big government and deficit financing because it's a sneaky way of paying for it.

At the same time, it hurts the people who are retired and put their money in savings.

...And aligned with this question, I would like to ask something to dealing exactly with gold, is that: If paper money - today it seems to be working rather well - but if the paper system doesn't work, when will the time come? What will the signs be that we should reconsider gold?

...what are the conditions that might exist for the central bankers of the world to reconsider gold?

We do know that they haven't given up on gold. They haven't gotten rid of their gold. They're holding it there for some reason.

So what's the purpose of the gold if it isn't with the idea that some day they might need it? They don't hold lead or pork bellies. They hold gold.

Joe Pickcredit card payments to double??#1344837/29/05; 14:10:38

Greetings, from Georgia. Been enjoying the forum and wanted to get some of your opinions on the coming doubling of the minimum credit card payments and the new bankruptcy laws. What you think are the reasons for the changes, and the effects on people, the economy and gold prices.....
Thanks a lot..joe pick

Clink!Bankruptcy - just do it !#1344847/29/05; 14:30:35

Welcome to the Forum, Sir Joe. While the title of the referenced article is somewhat inflammatory (Heck, why not ? It made me bite !), this is quite a good article and thread of some of the ramifications.


mikalHedge Fund Regulation a Pipe Dream?#1344857/29/05; 14:30:44

Counterparty Risks under the Lens - Craig Schneider, July 29, 2005 - Snippit:
"Financial institutions need to find out more about the credit risk of their counterparties, according to a new report by the Counterparty Risk Management Policy Group....
"We have no authority whatsoever, but we have a fair amount of moral-suasion," says the chairman of the group behind a new report that aims to reduce the risk of a "systemic shock" to the financial markets."

mikalThe "D" word undergoes "recent exponential growth"#1344867/29/05; 14:47:39

Derivatives Settlement Set to Get Faster
By Jennifer Hughes in New York
Published: July 28 2005 17:21 | Last updated: July 28 2005 17:21 Snippits:
"A platform dedicated to improving operational aspects of derivatives trading launched on Thursday – just a day after an influential report called for better disclosure and stronger systems to cope with the rapidly growing field."

GoldiloxNew Credit Card laws#1344877/29/05; 15:03:04

@ Joe Pick,

Just a totally non-porfessional opinion, but it seems that the former policy allowed banks to collect small payments on what were almost non-performing loans, as minimums often paid no more than the accruing interest.

In this atmosphere of ballooning credit and tighter restictions on bankruptcy, it just seems likely that banks want to recoup more of the loan principal on a per payment basis, bringing down their book debt burden.

TownCrierU.S. dollars are counted in Indonesia#1344887/29/05; 15:14:48

Something educational and thought-provoking about this simple photo and caption. (see url)

Serialized pieces of printed paper, far far from home, with more printed and shipped abroad every day.

How likely do you think it would be that a photo taken in subsequent years may find this man without his gold watch -- to have instead a larger pile of Ben Franklins?

A gold watch in Indonesia makes perfect sense -- as much sense as having a gold watch anywhere else in the world. Equally useful in all places.

Now look again, carefully, at the picture. What lingering mystique and social agreements make those U.S. paper notes significantly more useful to an Indonesian than Indonesian Rupiah notes at any given transactional moment in time?

If thoughts of scarcity, value, and savings over time come to mind, then GOLD is the better choice.

In years hence, expect an Indonesian such as this to fuss less for U.S. dollar notes, and more for gold.


USAGOLD Daily Market ReportPage Update!#1344897/29/05; 16:26:20">
The Daily Gold Market Report has been updated.

If you are considering investments in gold we invite you to">request our free introductory information packet detailing the products and services offered by USAGOLD ~ Centennial Precious Metals. We welcome your inquiry and look forward to working with you.

Friday Market Excerpts

July 29 (from MarketWatch) -- Investors took refuge in the gold market as the latest reports on the state of the U.S. economy weighed on the dollar, prompting prices to close at a one-month high Friday and log a 1.1% gain for the week.

December gold futures closed at $435.80, up $2.50 for the session. The contract closed out last week at $430.90 and ended the month of June at $443.

The dollar failed to gain traction Friday amid the release of a flurry of largely upbeat U.S. economic statistics. Weakness in the dollar often spurs buying in the precious metals, which are seen as a hedge against financial loss.

"The trend in gold is up [with] the dollar is finally starting to reverse," said Dale Doelling, chief market technician at Trends In Commodities.

From here, prices "should keep going up," said John Stafford, editor of Stafford's Investment Strategy Letter. The reasons for the climb include the fact that "the Chinese have said they are largely abandoning the dollar for a 'basket-case' of other paper currencies" and "the Fed keeps wildly inflating bank credit to keep all the many bubbles afloat," he said.

---(see url for full news, 24-hr newswire)----

geEleven US bases to close in Germany#1344907/29/05; 23:36:02

GoldiloxEleven base closures in Germany?#1344917/30/05; 00:11:09

Must be a "blue" state!
NedGoodies at the book store....#1344927/30/05; 05:32:36

I found a used book store in town the other day and found two gems, Robert Shilling´s ¨Irrational Exurberance¨ and Prector´s ¨Conquer the Crash¨

Skimming through Prector´s book, we cut to the chase with a quib from Chapter 22 - ¨Should You Invest in Precious Metals?¨

¨Precious metals are likely one day to become the most important asset class to own. From the mid-1970´s to the mid-1980´s, investors were dedicated to owning gold and silver for safety. Today, people are utterly disinterested in gold or silver, which is what sets the stage foe an opportunity.

First, with brief background. Currencies today are utter fictions, but few realize it. Sometime during this century, people will question the validity of the fiat money system. The 1970´s may prove to have been just a warm up in a world battle for real money. Governments may exercise their powers to keep the fiat paper money system afloat, defending their currencies with various schemes and legal restrictions, but in the end, gold will win.¨

- end quote -

I love this prector guy......¨ the end, gold will win¨!!

Have a golden weekend!!!!

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.A risk-free request, helping you enter the gold market with grace and confidence.#13449307/30/05; 12:21:10">Get a head start on the gold market!
mikal"Gifts" from Wall Street and the Treasury Dept.#13449407/30/05; 12:26:10

WAKE UP... CONNECT THE DOTS - Ed Henry - 07/29/05
Enforcing fraud, from Wall Street to Iraq to the badlands.

TownCrierReuters Friday gold report (excerpts)#13449507/30/05; 12:51:59

NEW YORK, July 29 (Reuters) - Investment fund buying and a tired-looking U.S. dollar drove gold futures to a one-month closing high on Friday, and bullish technicals and fundamentals could push the yellow metal higher next week, dealers said.

...Analysts said gold appeared primed for more gains due to a bullish recent trading pattern and amid steady physical demand from Asia.

"The market's tone is good and the chart pattern is sensational," said Scott Meyers at Pioneer Futures in New York. "I think that's got room now on the upside, to $440-445.

"If the euro moves up another 150 points, gold could go another $10 in a heartbeat. I think the euro is due for that kind of a rebound," Meyers said.

...Summer vacations kept gold trading a bit thinner than usual...

^---(from url)---^

TownCrierZIMBABWE: Gold Miners Hail New Support Price#13449607/30/05; 13:01:21

(The Herald) July 29, 2005 -- Gold miners have welcomed the new gold support price announced by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe, saying it will stimulate gold deliveries and foreign currency inflows.

The gold support price was increased from ZIM$175000 to ZIM$230000 per gram in the mid-term monetary policy review statement presented by central bank governor Dr Gideon Gono last Thursday.

...this would provide the right impetus for increased deliveries to Fidelity Printers, the gold buying arm of the Reserve Bank.

^----(from url)----^

At the new exchange rate of ZIM$17500 per U.S. dollar, the miners remain effectively taxed through official channels, receiving the equivalent of only US$409 per ounce.


PRITCHOThe Great Unraveling -- - - -- - Jim Puplava#13449707/30/05; 23:03:14

This(Pt3)is a "Must Read"-written by a master story teller
the scenarios outlined will be of no surprise to those that frequent this site.

If you haven't indulged already start with Pt1 - enjoy.

PRITCHOScary News - -How Many Americans Know About This ?#13449807/30/05; 23:14:06

From "The Privateer" - -See Link

You Really Do Live On A Battlefield:

The US is under de facto internal martial law. In a courthouse in Richmond, Virginia,a government attorney has declared that in the war on terror, the United States is a battlefield, so President Bush has the authority to detain enemy combatants indefinitely. This was said in a case before a court dealing with the US Supreme Courts previous ruling that people held by the US Federal Government had the legal right to seek habeas corpus in US Federal Court, meaning that the Bush Administration had to show the legal justifications for holding these people in custody. Habeas corpus means to have to present the body.This means that the person accused must appear before a competent US court and a valid justification must be shown for having taken that person into custody. Here, this principle was denied by the US Federal Attorney, who held forward the argument that the President's powers were singular and that he,the President held in his own hands the power to hold all people he calls enemy combatants indefinitely.

When The Military Power Supercedes The Civil Power:

Having declared in open court that the United States is a battlefield, this US Federal Attorney is attempting to elevate the Presidential powers as Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces ABOVE the real and actual power of the Presidency. The President is subject to the Constitution. But if the President is acting directly as Commander In Chief and if the United States is itself a battlefield, then and only then does this claim have even partial legal standing. If it does, then the US is under martial law!
In terms of the actual United States Constitution, the civil powers of the Presidency stand above the secondary powers the President also has as Commander In Chief of the US armed forces. The reason for this is to assure that the civil power is superior to the military power. This US Federal Attorney has reversed the order. He does this by the means of declaring the United States to be a battlefield. If that is taken as given, then the US military is the supreme power inside the US. From there, it follows inescapably that all of the United States is under military control until this state of war ends.

Then - All Our Screens Went Blank:

We admit this openly and freely. Being way down under in the Land of OZ, and trying with might and main, all reporting about this assertion in the Richmond courthouse fell into a black hole. Suddenly, a sequence of court moves we have been tracking for close to three odd years vanished. All reporting by US state media went blank, as did the broader US media, in regard to these legal moves in Richmond. We have tried contacting Congress, news media galore, direct connections, and have gotten exactly
nowhere. But what we do know is that the authority given to President Bush, by Congress, to launch his attack upon Iraq was so broad and vague that it could be turned in other directions. That made us nervous, in intellectual and political terms. That's why we have been tracking, as closely as we can from Australia, all these many cases rolling through the US legal system. These cases and their outcomes will make clear to us WHAT individual RIGHTS Americans still might have. Constitutionally as well as
historically, as the Supreme Court itself said during the Civil War - on the battlefield - THE COURTS ARE SILENT! The US Supreme Court has never retreated from this since the Civil War, except to say that where the civil courts can re-establish themselves - they have supremacy and the military power does not. If all of the United States is now a battlefield - then - except at the State level, where some judges and some States might dispute the situation, the main US Federal Courts are all silent. They are silent wherever or whenever the President of the United States asserts his Commander In Chief voice.

The CENTRAL Issue:

Either the United States IS a battlefield, and therefore under at least de facto martial law, or it is not. If
the "Global War On Terror" (GWOT as they call it) IS being fought out INSIDE the US, then Americans have LOST their individual rights and have NO access to senior courts of law to defend them.

GoldiloxDukes of Hazzard#13449907/31/05; 00:23:20

CMT is previewing the new "Dukes of Hazzard" movie.

In one of the promo takes, a Duke brother announces, "Watch CMT this weekend for a preview of the NEW Dukes of Hazzard. We'll be giving away 50 million dollars."

Daisy (jessica Simpson) responds, "Quit lying!"

The other brother says, "It's 50 million Lira. We're giving away 50 million Lira. Well, they're the same!"

I guess they've been lurking here lately! LOL

GoldiloxA Snowball in the Making: China's Basket of Currencies#1345007/31/05; 09:54:39


Talking about the potential for turbulence in the monetary system, I would like to mention a point raised last week by Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Federal Reserve, during what may be his last testimony to Congress before he retires. He was asked by Congressman Ron Paul why doesn't the U.S. return to a gold standard when fiat money (paper money not backed by gold) created the problems of the 1970s in a scheme to induce inflation and defraud people of their hard earned money. Greenspan didn't dispute Ron Paul's assessment of the 1970s, but said a 'scheme' would imply a conscious effort, yet the effects of the 1970s policies were "inadvertent." Greenspan said that in the early 1980s, a return to the gold standard, as he suggested at the time, may have been a prudent option, but that former Chairman Paul Volcker's policies were also effective. Nowadays, however, there is no need to return to a gold standard because central banks have learned from their mistakes and are acting as if there were a gold standard. Greenspan must have forgotten George Bernard Shaw's quote:

You have to choose between trusting to the natural stability of gold and the natural stability of the honesty and intelligence of the members of the government. And, with due respect to these gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the capitalist system lasts, to vote for gold. --George Bernard Shaw

Greenspan appears to be a victim of the same lack of modesty as all central bankers throughout history have been. Every generation of central bankers seems to believe that they have not only learned from the mistakes of the past, but also imply that no new mistakes will be made. During World War I, the German Reichsbank's central bankers -- all educated men --, believed financing a war is 'exogenous' and non-inflationary to the economy; hyper-inflation a few years down the road proved them wrong. Nowadays, former Fed Governor and possible Greenspan successor, Ben Bernanke, has not ruled out throwing money out of helicopters to stimulate the U.S. economy; and Greenspan's policies have contributed to the greatest financial imbalances in world financial history. And these are U.S. central bankers. What about Asian central bankers that were burned just a few years ago by a major currency crisis?


The CBs may "learn from the errors of the past", but it seems the electorate is not so endowed. We keep empowering the same syndicated overlords again and again, hoping against hope that their "trickle down theories" will trickle down a little more our way than someone elses. Would that be an honest wish for nepotism, or just a common sense response to totalitarianism?

968Wim Duisenberg died today.#1345017/31/05; 10:20:48

The first President of the ECB, Wim Duisenberg, is found death in a village nearby the city of Vaison-la-Romaine. The French authorities don't say anything about the conditions or causes of his death, but they will give a press conference later this evening.

The link is unfortenately in French.

SmeagolNow what?#1345027/31/05; 10:41:45

"Wim Duisenberg died on 31th of july 2005. He was found in the swimming pool at his home near Orange, France."
BoilermakerEx-Citigroup banker Zankel dead in fall#1345037/31/05; 11:00:39

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Arthur Zankel, a former Citigroup financier and patron of the arts, died in a fall from the ninth floor of his Manhattan apartment building, a family member said.
Zankel, 73, in a fall from the Fifth Avenue building on Thursday, his son Tom Zankel said.

Not to make light of a tragic accident but the circumstances have the odor of more than pure accident. This guy was on the Board of Citibank and a close friend of Sandy Weill. Maybe he wanted to get some skeletons out of his closet. I'm sure there's no connection to Wim's death but it does make for some interesting speculation.

SmeagolHow many times does it have to be ssaid...#1345047/31/05; 11:02:33,0,3278155,print.story?coll=ny-business-headlines

...that Precious in the handses is ALWAYS better than the HOPE of Precious in the handses? ~8-(

(linked from GE casstle)

"Disbarred Lawyer Guilty in $46M Gold Swindle


July 28, 2005

A disbarred lawyer who had served a prison term for securities fraud has been convicted of operating a massive fraud scheme out of an office in Plandome Manor that swindled thousands of people around the country out of a total of $46 million, officials said.

John Surgent, 63, of Franklin Lakes, N.J., was convicted Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Brooklyn of conspiracy, securities fraud and conspiracy to commit money laundering, following a weeklong trial before a jury that deliberated less than two hours.

Many of Surgent's victims were elderly, seeking to increase their retirement incomes, including one 82-year-old man who lost his entire $300,000 life savings and had to return to work, Assistant U.S. Attorney Suzanne McDermott said in her opening statement in the case.

Surgent's attorney, Miles Feinstein of Clifton, N.J., said Surgent would probably appeal.

According to an investigation by the U.S. Postal Inspection Service and the FBI, in 1999 Surgent set up a shell company in Plandome Manor named Orex, which supposedly had a revolutionary patented process to mine gold.

Surgent then enlisted a number of front people to manipulate the price of Orex and to sell it to clients as a hot stock that would vastly increase in value, prosecutors said. The stock did briefly go up 500 percent in 1999 to $8 a share, but then crashed to pennies a share.

Surgent, selling at the market high, though, made $6 million, some of which he put into building a mansion in Franklin Lakes, investigators said. However, in this pump-and-dump scheme, the victims were left with stock that had almost no value, investigators said.

One of the victims, Delizia Moraglia of Bayside, a retired, 72-year-old widow, said she was pleased with the verdict. Moraglia said she had lost the $10,000 she had invested to supplement her pension.

Surgent faces 151 months in prison when he is sentenced by U.S. District Judge John Gleeson.

Copyright 2005 Newsday Inc."

BelgianA. Greenspan#1345057/31/05; 12:42:36

...CBs are acting as if there were a gold standard (!-?)...

No Sir Alan...THERE IS EFFECTIVELY A GOLD STANDARD !!! A standard that suits the CB's policies through hiding the cruel realities. A standard, still manufactured by the CBs themselves and their collaborators. >>> UN-freely priced gold...a fictional goldprice, very convenient for the CB's actions.

Alan is turning the realities deliberately upside down. It is the unfree goldpricing that is supposed to say (evidence) that CBankers learned their lesson and became almost perfect managers. No, Sir Alan...CBankers became almost perfect goldprice freezers whilst the general public and many other CBs lost their understanding of the function of the goldreserve and its valuation.

Greenspan wants us to believe that gold is freely priced and that under these circumstances the goldprice is giving the CBankers a 10 on 10. How shrewd and convenient. The universal judge... gold... in the CB's pocket.

Next week US and China will sit down and have "talks". Will the Asian CBs continue to act as if there still were a ($) gold standard !? Apparently not...that's why all parties will kill time with...talks, whilst the respective actions continue. THE ASIAN FACTOR versus the West (read Liu's latest very rich thoughts). Under Liu's correctly described circumstances, CBs cannot go on "acting" as if there were a ($) gold standard. Most probably, Sir Alan will be gone and not witness the dramatic -inevitable- changes. So the CB acting might go on for a few years up until Ben's helicopters are inflating...must inflate... almost everything.


Monday, the EU must answer Iran about its economic and POLITICAL (!!!) incentives in exchange for leaving the nuclear (bom) business alone. In the past 24 hours 60 deaths in Irak. Is oil still acting as if there were a ($)gold standard ? No it isn't and will never act anymore as if there still were a $-gold-standard. Why should CBs continue to do so, Sir Alan !? A barril of oil is now equivalent to more than 4 grams of gold. During the past 3 decades one barril never went behind the 3 grams ! Funny "standard" !

USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.P. von Braun weighs in on Greenspan's behavioral 'gold standard'#1345067/31/05; 13:34:01

A sample from the newly arrived 'Rocket School of Economics':
Recently in a Q & A with Congressman Ron Paul before the House Financial Affairs Committee Chairman Alan Greenspan responded to a question from Congressman Paul by not answering it directly, which is not surprising, but what he did say is, in and of itself, mind boggling.

"...the question is: Would there be any advantage, at this particular stage, in going back to the gold standard? And the answer is: I don't think so, because we're acting as though we were there."

These statements are patently absurd because how could a central banker act as if he was on a gold standard? The purpose of a gold standard is to limit the creation of credit, something now referred to as liquidity, and to not allow the confiscation of wealth that is the result of a fiat system. Having now confiscated the wealth of a once great nation, having seen the purchasing power of the dollar decline by over 96% since it went off the gold standard, Greenspan has the audacity to say 'we' are 'acting' as if 'we' are on a gold standard and have been since the late 1970's.

One has to wonder as to what sort of gold is required in this 'acting as if' scenario; what does it look like, is it assayable, does it need to be stored, can it be located or is it of the "let's pretend" variety? Acting, in a sense, is "let's pretend"...

It's remarkable! Here we have the Chairman of the largest banking system in the world saying that 'we', central bankers, have been acting as if 'we' are on a gold standard, when they are as far removed from a gold standard as it is possible to be. So how do you, or can you, act as if you are on one, when you are not? What are the essential guidelines for this let's pretend game of acting as if, generally speaking?

Does this mean that manipulating the price of gold is one of the props that is used to facilitate this 'as if' scenario? Obviously, acting or otherwise, the 'as if' gold standard Greenspan refers to would have to have an 'as if' price attached to it otherwise it, the "let's pretend" game could not work.

His other infamous statement made several years ago was that central bankers stand ready to mobilize gold reserves should the price rise, or words to that effect. How do you mobilize that which is immobile? Other than via the paper markets it too is a ludicrous statement, unless of course manipulation of the gold price was the game....

Perhaps Greenspan is telling us something that is extremely relevant to the gold market and the price action of gold since the late 1970's. Gold at $850 an ounce was not something they wanted to see and we have not seen that price again. I wonder why? This coincides with Greenspan's 'acting' time frame (i.e. from the late 1970's) and it sure sounds like these 'central bankers' have been using paper contracts (paper gold) to allow them to fool themselves into believing they are acting as if they are on a gold standard when they are not.

It is important to note that the period from 1971 through to early 1980 was the first time in nearly 300 years that gold traded freely and increased in price 24 fold. I suspect that Paul Volcker was the central banker that instituted the idea of controlling the gold price via a variety of means, but not necessarily limited to paper gold, forward sales from mining companies and paper contracts on the futures market.

Now I would go so far as to say that what Greenspan is referring to is that central bankers have learned that the only danger (perhaps early warning signs would be a better phrase) to the fiat system is a rising gold price and have, since the late 1970's, been controlling the gold price ever since.

They have, indirectly, perhaps even deviously gone back to a historical 'managed' gold price, without the need to redeem their paper currencies; and this management may be what Greenspan is referring to when he says central bankers have been acting as if we were (and are) on a gold standard.

Once again, acting requires props ... and I am sure that for central bankers (implying more than one) to act as if they are on a gold standard requires a prop, an artificial price, obtained by manipulating the paper gold market, with settlement in the fiat currency of course.

The 'real reserves' he refers to are just as ephemeral or non existent as is the 'as if' gold standard central bankers have been acting 'as if' they had. Do you believe that central bankers have learned the dangers of a fiat currency system? Perhaps it is time to obtain some REAL 'real reserves' just in case the 'as if' game runs out of breath.

Complete text at the hyperlink given above.

mikalUS pisses off China?#1345077/31/05; 13:54:54

US Should Keep it's Hands off Taiwan- China Daily - 07/29/05
Newspaper asserts that replacing US military contractors with US active-duty personnel is ongoing, poisons and casts a shadow over China/US ties and interferes in China's internal affairs. You can't ask for any stronger cues to get gold than those coming now.