USAGOLD Gold Discussion Forum Archive

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Black BladeMuslims Told to Withdraw U.S. Assets #8409209/01/02; 01:24:46


BEIRUT, Lebanon –– Muslims everywhere should withdraw their money from U.S. markets because those funds may be frozen or confiscated, Lebanon's top Shiite Muslim cleric said in a sermon. Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah also warned worshippers gathered for Friday prayers in a Beirut suburb that a possible U.S. attack on Iraq was designed to assert America's control of oil in the Middle East and elsewhere. Fadlallah's sermon came days after a lawyer for 700 relatives of Sept. 11 victims filed a $1 trillion lawsuit against the Saudi and Sudanese governments, as well as members of Saudi royal family, banks and charities. It contends that they financed the plot in which some 3,000 people died. "We must change our mentality in the political, economic and security dealings with America, especially by withdrawing Arab and Islamic investments in America because new laws there have started to represent dangers of freezing and confiscating under decisions resulting from Sept. 11," Fadlallah said.

Black Blade: Middle Eastern Arabs would be smart to cash in and take their funds out of the United States. In the current anti-Arab environment it is a sure bet that the lawsuit will be found in favor of the plaintiffs. The risk of staying invested in the US is extremely high, especially in a country that keeps people incarcerated incommunicado without access to family and lawyers, held under "secret" charges in solitary confinement, not informed of what the charges are, and without due process. Yeah, if I were an Arab investor I would bail out of the US faster than one could turn an oil spigot. The risk is very high that Arabs will have their investments stolen by the US.

WaveriderWall Street Cheerleaders Out of Sync#8409309/01/02; 01:59:02,2933,61797,00.html

RobotGuy - this one's for you! :)

"After driving stocks higher late last year on hopes the economy would bounce back from recession, investors sensed by this summer that something was awfully wrong. They pulled $50 billion from U.S. stock mutual funds, a record withdrawal that sent the market into a horrific drop.

People are now waiting for the economy and corporate earnings to improve before jumping back into the market. They refuse to be sucked into believing Wall Street cheerleaders who say that a half dozen consecutive quarters of lousy corporate results were simply a speed bump. The betting is stocks may stay in the dog house at least through the end of the year because corporate profits will not be strong enough to pull the market higher. Despite having constantly misjudged corporate America's profitability for more than a year, analysts who "need" to be bullish still haven't removed their rose-colored glasses. They're running with the bullish herd, projecting a tremendous recovery in the second half.

But the trouble is that consumers have now mortgaged themselves to their eyeballs, even after losing $7.8 trillion in stock-market wealth. In the rush to refinance mortgages, people are cashing out on the fast-rising values of their homes, sucking out the pent-up equity so as to keep spending on stuff. The big question is: with so many people tapped out financially, will they take their game ball and go home or continue single-handedly to keep the economy afloat?"

BelgianKnock.....knock.....knock......#8409409/01/02; 02:50:11

Will someone please open the door for "HYPERINFLATION" to come in ! Thanks.
The global stock markets did a nice job in having absorbed and canalised the confetti-bergs. Real estate was co-operative but to a lesser extend. It was a very narrow form of asset-inflation (stocks). This love affair is over and something else "must" be inflated, NOW ! All currencies will have to show their "real" intrinsic worth and their real purchasing force. High noon for the final unmasking of the floating confettis. Watch that CRB-index, running for its first attraction-point of 233 (Fib.number-humhum).

Whatever the outcome on the ultra cheap is and will be *oil*, that is going to shake up all those mis-managed and falsified currencies. Time out for no profits/unserviceble debts and cooked books. The euro currency must appreciate against the dollar to soften the coming, rising, oil bill. This is even more important for the nearby future of 3,6 billion people in China and India.
Note that the Nikkei-index is reaching its final support on 9.500...where hell will break loose.

Don't get fooled by the ridicule interest rate show ! It is "the system", trying to bail out the system (D.Noland).

*Forced*, Unilaterism of the US on the desert-oil-policies, is evidence of the difference in currency ($/€) management and vision.
The dollar-block, rather wants to admit that there is something growing like a "Gold dinar" (J. Wanninsky) than admitting an euro/oil/gold concept !!! Fun.

The whole future of EMU (succes or failuire) is based on the euro's fundamentals. Purposely kept silent for the general public.
If latinam adds some additional 'dollar-break-away ' pressure...the past hidden currency depreciation, will find its inflation in resources, at last !

The globe is going to bill the US$ for the past (and future) delivery of REAL goods and services ! And it is going to be a gigantic bill. A temporary decline in POO (no war or postponement) will not change a iota to the above basic course that has been put on the rails. An occupation of Iraq's second biggest world-reserve of "cheap" oil will make things even worse . Escalation of the ongoing.
Don't count on the Russian oil-oligarchy to be accomodatif.

The only alternatif is to recognise, at last, the utmost importance and value of cheap oil for peacefull prosperity and stability. This has (will have) a much higher price than has been paid for, during the past 30 years. Cheap oil always wanted to be rewarded with equal "value". Be it Gold or a Gold related currency ! TG/FOA/A has it right from A to Z !

With the POO at 30$/34$, the globe panicked ! All, present, political statements on oil delivery (availability) are an exercise in geopolitical dansing. Cheap desert-oil and expensive Caspian (plus other) oil want (demand) a REAL currency in exchange for the precious black. The medieval management and pampering of oil potentates is over. Real things are "increasingly" demanding REAL rewards. Efforts to push Nigeria out of OPEC, failed. Even potable water will become very expensive, sooner, rather than later.

The past week was an important one. The US was explicitely isolated by Euroland on its oil policies. Step by step, TG's scenario (theory) is materializing. And so far, I don't see any deus ex machina that could change this, drastically. The US's ruling dynasties are to face "systemic" (structural) confrontational conflicts. Old laws are no longer as evident as before. The www has surpassed the controlled (outdated) media-spin. The US$ is facing a WW-III. Afraid that not many options are left open for a peacefull happy ending ?

Soon, your Gold coin will buy what your paper can't anymore.
Paper will burn (is burning) and Gold will glow.

Socrates964The Good Old Days#8409509/01/02; 06:29:36

Holiday thoughts - rooting through a second hand bookshop, I turned up a copy of Baedeker's Londres 1888 and on the first page find:

"The Bank of England issues notes of 5, 10, 20, 50 pounds, etc. which are not welcomed everywhere, with the result that one [tourists] should prefer gold coins. It is wise to note the numbers of the notes that one is carrying in order to be able to block their payment at the bank, in the case of loss or theft."

A good class hotel was 10s per night, while the carving table at Simpson's of the Strand(still open today) was 3/6, and a cutlet or piece of roast meat in a sandwich with a glass of beer eaten standing up at a luncheon bar (trying to come up with the Victorian equivalent of a Big Mac Combo) was about 8d (probably cheaper as Baedeker wouldn't have recommended places like McD's to its readers).

Given that a sovereign was 1/4 oz of gold, I calculate that at $310/oz, these prices would have been:

the hotel room $39, the top-class restaurant $13.60 and the snack $2.60.

Granted, there has been some shift in relative prices - Reading Boswell's London Diary of 1762 and what is striking is how much transport costs have gone down relative to accommodation- the coach journey from Edinburgh to London cost almost 6 months' rent, but a simple example like the above shows that gold is seriously undervalued relative to its purchasing power in 1888, or is a suite at the Pierre going to cost $40 any time soon? If we regard London of the time as a 3rd world country, we should perhaps compare with hotel rates in a place like India - e.g. the best suite at the Oberoi, Delhi - $150-200?

On this basis, gold would have to rise 3-5x to restore 1888 PPP, or conversely, paper money has stolen 60-80% of the purchasing power of gold over the last century. We evidently can't stand another century of this.

Any thoughts?

misetich"World Economic Recovery Headlines"#8409609/01/02; 08:13:33


U.S. Economy Growing Too Slowly to Reduce Unemployment, Reports May Show

Bank of England May Keep Rates at 38-Year Low After Slump in Manufacturing

European Investors Hang Onto Bonds on Evidence Global Growth Is Faltering

and lets not forget Japan eternal recession and Latin America economic turmoil

misetichAnother Slap at Democracy on Wall St.#8409709/01/02; 08:31:05



Millions of investors rushed into the stock market in the 1990's, believing that Wall Street was at least a fairly level playing field. Although they have since learned how illusory that notion was, the myth of democracy on Wall Street took a real beating last week.

One look at the Salomon Smith Barney documents detailing its allocation of initial public offerings, subpoenaed and just released by Congress, showed individual investors why they couldn't get the hot stocks that raced skyward during the mania. Ahead of them in line at most big firms were grasping executives who had a far greater chance of bagging hot stocks because their companies were paying investment banking fees to the firms doing the doling.
What the firms were really dispensing was free money. That is because the firms bringing shares public routinely and excessively underpriced them. An analysis by Sanford C. Bernstein & Company in 1999 showed that the median underpricing of initial offerings, which had been less than 5 percent in the early 1990's, rocketed to 30 percent that year.

That represented a heap of money left on the table by companies selling stock. It now appears that brokerage firms used this pile to reward already wealthy executives whose companies were, or might become, their customers.

How big was the honey pot? Figures from Thomson Financial put the first-day gains in new telecom shares issued from January 1999 to January 2001 at $9.6 billion. In telecom stocks alone, brokerage firms had almost $10 billion to divvy up among their "best customers."
That there was a gross misallocation of capital into telecom during the mania is painfully clear. Too many companies were funded and too many failed. The human cost of this misallocation is also large. Challenger, Gray & Christmas, the job outplacement company, reports that 504,000 telecom jobs were eliminated in the 19 months through July. This year, telecom companies account for 23 percent of all jobs eliminated in the United States.

It's worth wondering if that pain would have been smaller had these companies taken into their coffers some of the money they left in Wall Street's trough. Perhaps more of them would have made it and fewer jobs would have been lost. Instead, the bulk of that $10 billion honey pot went into the pockets of the "best customers" of Wall Street.


"Best customers" "industry practice" "perfectly legal" - as Barron's Abelson wrote this week - its Wall Street Brothel

There are more than just a few rotten apples in the barrel-

Got gold?

misetichForecast Too Sunny? Try the Anxious Index- The handful of accurate forecasters came almost exclusively from boutique firms or college campuses, and this is probably not a coincidence. Like stock analysts, economists at big banks and brokerage firms have a financial incentive to predict good times#8409809/01/02; 08:50:21


You almost wonder whether Wall Street's economists were competing with their colleagues in equity research departments to see who could make worse predictions.

While the analysts were saying early last year that the stocks of Enron and the telecommunications sector were undervalued, the economists were forecasting that the country would escape recession. Whenever bad economic news emerged, many economists pushed their rosy predictions a few weeks into the future. Few acknowledged the recession until it was nearly over.

Now the economy is looking weak again, and the forecasters have assured us that growth is going to pick up soon. Is there any reason to believe them?

Based on history, the answer is no. As a group, Wall Street economists have failed to predict any of the three recessions in the last 20 years, according to records kept by the Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia. Hidden in the economists' forecasts, however, is a little-known economic indicator — call it the Anxious Index — that has been an impressively reliable warning light for recessions. It deserves to steal some of the attention from the oft-quoted prognostications of imminent growth.
The handful of accurate forecasters came almost exclusively from boutique firms or college campuses, and this is probably not a coincidence. Like stock analysts, economists at big banks and brokerage firms have a financial incentive to predict good times. The profits of their companies — and thus some of their own pay, which can reach seven figures for chief economists — depend on people's confidence and their willingness to buy stocks.

Given these conflicts, the steady predictions that the economy will grow by an annual rate of about 3 percent in coming quarters deserves about the same consideration as the constant chorus of "buy" recommendations on stocks.

James E. Cayne, chief executive of Bear Stearns, acknowledged as much while testifying two years ago during a trial to determine whether the firm should repay a client who lost millions of dollars based on its poor currency predictions. Economists "don't really have a good record as far as predicting the future," Mr. Cayne said. "I think that it is entertainment," he said, referring to their work.
Enter the Anxious Index.

In addition to keeping track of the forecasts of economists, the Philadelphia Fed asks them near the middle of each quarter to estimate the odds that the economy will shrink over the coming year. The economists give a percentage for the current quarter and each of the next four.

The magic number for the Anxious Index seems to be 30. When forecasters think that there is a 30 percent chance that the economy will shrink in the coming quarter, a downturn usually follows. "When we're up in that range, it really means a recession could happen at any time," said Dean Croushore, an economist at the Philadelphia Fed.

(To take a look at the index, type in and check under "Mean Probability of Decline in Real G.D.P." The fifth column from the left covers the quarter after the survey.)
So what does it say these days? After jumping to almost 32 early last year, shortly before the recession, it remained high until this year's second quarter, then fell to about 14. It moved to 18 in the most recent survey, reflecting the summer's weak spending and stock market declines but still not suggesting that a double-dip recession is likely.

Think of the Anxious Index as a translator for those relentlessly bullish Wall Street forecasts. Right now, the economists appear to mean what they are saying.

Wall Street economists cannot and should not be trusted - Wasn't Sir Greenspan one of them at one time? and still is...

Sir Greenspan claimed he couldn't prevent the bubble as millions of investors etc etc yet - Sir Greenspan a former (present?) member of the Wall Street Brothel lowered interest rates in '98 when the economy was red hot (to save a few cronies at LCTM) and fuelled the Nasdaq late '99/2000 rush with a gush of liquidity and he has preached the "new economy" and "productivity miracle" -

Should (can) Sir Greenspan be sued for costing (robbing) investors worlwide trillions of $?

Little difference exists between the likes of Sir Greenspan, O'Neil, Rubin etc and those of the Wall Street Brothel - they have an incentive to predict good times and as such continuously mislead investors and the public

More than a few rotten apples in the bushel -

Got gold?

misetichOPEC Majority Said to Oppose Quota Boost#8409909/01/02; 09:05:41



Filed at 6:41 p.m. ET

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Saturday his country firmly opposed increasing OPEC oil output quotas, and he added the majority of the oil cartel's other members shared this view.
``The information that I have up to now is that the majority of (OPEC members) agree to maintain current production levels, including Saudi Arabia,'' Chavez told foreign reporters at a news conference.

``That is the opinion of the majority and our own opinion on the matter is very firm,'' he said, speaking before flying out of Caracas to attend the Earth Summit in Johannesburg.

Several ministers from the oil cartel have said they see no need to raise fourth-quarter output, although a senior OPEC delegate has said more crude is required to meet rising demand. Increased OPEC supply would cool off oil prices, which last week tipped $30 a barrel for the first time in 18 months.

OPEC insiders and oil analysts have reported that Saudi Arabia, the cartel heavyweight, has been pushing for a production increase.

But President Chavez, a price hawk and champion of OPEC unity, was adamant on Saturday that neither Venezuela, the world's fifth largest oil exporter, nor OPEC as a group would decide to raise output quotas at the upcoming Osaka meeting.

Asked whether his country, which is facing mounting fiscal problems and a shrinking economy, would comply if OPEC did agree to increase production limits, Chavez replied:

``I prefer to say that OPEC and Venezuela are not going to increase (their production).''
``There are no elements of any weight that justify an oil production increase,'' Chavez said.

He cited analysts' forecasts reporting that an expected pick-up in the world economy, which would fuel oil demand, was proving to be slow.

The continuous war mongering of Cheney & Co are maintaining
oil prices higher due to a "war premium" and the likelyhood of much higher oil prices is a certainty -

Does not augur well for a global economic recovery- and the stock markets

Got gold?

Belgian@ Socrates964#8410009/01/02; 09:43:58

The present "price" for the "valuable" precious yellow is in the ban of the *FLOATING* currency power-circus !
Trying to find a present or future, convenient/justified, price for Gold, is not on the order of the day anymore.
It is the orderly chaos of the floating currencies that is bothering this economical world. There is an urge (invisible desire) for a kind of "backing" of the confetti as to be used for temporary storing of wealth and correct measurement for exchange/trade of real goods and services.

Same effort/work/sweat, to be exchanged for a standard, Big Mac, everywhere . It is the false perception that the US$-currency is "THE" standard (reserve-currency), that is soon to be put into serious question, all over the globe. You certainly know the many reasons "why".

The question today, all over the world, is now : In what do I store my wealth and keep it as powerfull as it is today ?
Now, give me or yourself an answer to this seemingly idiotic question. The past prosperity wasn't based entirely on our entrepreneurship but on permanent depreciation of the currencies in wich we "price" things. With taxing and re-distribution as the legal confiscation by the collectivity. We succeeded in broadening prosperity with the false premisse of easy/easier, confetti availability.
Hoarding and storing, growing wealth, was/is considered counterproductive and disturbing. This cannot go on for, indeed, an other century.

Someone, somewhere, sometime, must and will start the introduction of "another" standard to replace/displace the falsely percepted US$-standard (notes / coins / virtual digits). The floating circus, makes it impossible to refer to old prices and simply adapt/correct these prices. The 1880 hotelroom has no value relation with today's Oberoi-room, where the factor "crude oil" is making the difference. Spend a night at Oberoi in Kathmandou and make an inventory of crude's derivates in it. During the period you are referring to, resources (real tangibles) were backing the recipients for settlement (fiat). This relationship has completely disappeared nowadays. Our currencies are referring to nothing anymore. They will keep on floating for as long as perceptions, allow them to do so.

Decimating stocks, almost zero IRs, indirect (subtle) taxation on tangibles and last but not least, easy money adding to the debtbergs...leaves us with no choices for having our wealth, safely stored. The house in wich you live is a constant consumer of increasing amounts of confetti to be generated by its owner (the bills and taxation). Therefore, ones property is not what it used to be as a store of wealth. Real estate is not compensatory for the rapid loss in purchasing power. Today's households "need" double income for keeping up all appearances.

This must and shall ultimately lead to a financial (monetary) collapse or a gradual shift into a reserve currency with real standard allures, widely accepted. The euro has this ambition, but can't make it without Gold AND oil ! But first we have to agree that the dollar failed.
Gold will revalue to such extend, proportionate to the degree that we accept the dollar's failure. That is a "process" and not a pure mathematical matter with a preset timing.

The value of the remaining oil-reserves, the unoverseeable debt-masses and the insane easy money policies of the dollar(reserve)block, are moulding on this financial/monetary process as pandemies did their devastating job in the 19th century. For the dollar to survive, it must conquer the whole world and 6 billion people with it. Difficult job to complete succesfully, isn't it ? Today we are living with and within fierce currency wars with one dominator so far.
Euroland (EMU) already stopped this unproductive and exhausting currency competion on its own small territory.

misetichBack-to-School Season Gets an "F"- So far, shoppers aren't fueling the second-half rebound that retailers need -- and were counting on#8410109/01/02; 10:16:06

All of this could have serious implications for economic recovery. Consumer spending on goods besides cars -- which are selling briskly thanks to 0% financing and other incentives -- is projected to barely rise in the third and fourth quarters, after adjusting for inflation. That means other sectors of the economy, especially business spending on equipment and inventory building, will have to kick up a notch if the economy is to maintain the 3% annual rate of growth it has enjoyed in the past three quarters.

"There hasn't been a recession or depression where the consumer hasn't cushioned the downside and restrained the upside," says Steven Wieting, senior U.S. economist at Salomon Smith Barney.

OVERCROWDED SHELVES? For retailers, a consumer pullback during the crucial back-to-school period could mean a very unmerry Christmas. Because stores order goods up to a year in advance, it's hard to switch gears if demand slows. In recent months, retailers have been rebuilding inventories based on earlier predictions of a robust second half. In fact, in July, store inventories, excluding cars, were up for the third month in a row -- something that hasn't happened since mid-2000.

But if demand doesn't accelerate for apparel, personal computers, and compact disks, retailers may find themselves with overcrowded shelves during the holiday season. The result: profit-killing discounting and promotions. Marc Gerstein, director of investment research at earnings tracker, reports that in the past month, analysts have adjusted their third-quarter earnings estimates downward for retailers more than twice as often as they have raised them.

US recovery has "stalled" for 6 out 7 quarters in a row -and the worst may just be around the corner -
In the weeks ahead it appears that layoff announcements will pick up speed as earnings pre-announcements continue -

ANOTHER leg down for the US economy - global economy - stock market - bond investors -

How long before we see a bank derivative blowup?

Got gold?

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.$5.95 online (save $9 plus tax and time vs. in-store purchase!)#8410209/01/02; 10:30:52

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Please Remember: It is your purchase from USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals that nourishes these pages.

misetichEliot Spitzer: "Stay Tuned"- The aggressive New York AG who hit Merrill with a $100 million fine and is now probing Citigroup talks about modern banking's conflicts#8410309/01/02; 10:40:18


Now, Spitzer is going after Citigroup (C ), its investment bank, Salomon Smith Barney, and its CEO Sandy Weill. At issue, controversial former SSB analyst Jack Grubman, who changed his recommendation on AT&T in November, 1999, from neutral to buy. Citigroup won a $10.6 billion deal to underwrite AT&T's tracking stock in April, 2000, and Grubman lowered his rating months later.

Weill has been drawn into the controversy because he sat on AT&T's board at the time. AT&T was subpoenaed on Aug. 23 concerning the investigation.
Q: Ultimately, Merrill seems to have gotten off with little more than a small fine. That's what analysts speculate will happen with Citi, too.
A: It's too early to say, but keep in mind the $100 million that Merrill is paying is only a fraction of what they will pay in [lawsuit] settlements in the next few years. The market cap took a huge hit.

And some of the conflicts that have been revealed have had a real negative effect on the balance sheets of these financial-services firms. One of the consequences [of the conflicts] may have been misguided loans made to investment-banking clients.
Q: You can't help but wonder where the bank regulators were in all this. Though bank balance sheets are healthy, the banks certainly took on some serious reputational risks.
A: There have been several lapses at least. The internal compliance departments at the firms have been absent, the regulators from the SEC to the OCC [Office of the Comptroller of the Currency] to others have not been visible. [We need to rethink] how we examine the banking system.

Q: Any suggestions?
A: No, I'm going to stick with what I know here.

Q: One could infer from the Merrill settlement that disgorgement -- getting investors' money back, by, for example, establishing restitution pools that companies must pay into -- isn't one of your priorities.
A: I'd say stay tuned.

Worth repeating.......

A: There have been several lapses at least. The internal compliance departments at the firms have been absent, the regulators from the SEC to the OCC [Office of the Comptroller of the Currency] to others have not been visible. [We need to rethink] how we examine the banking system.
End of quote

Got gold?

Gandalf the WhiteA MONTH of Celebrations !!!#8410409/01/02; 10:56:33

Second NOTICE to "Lurkers" !

September is hereby declared as the USAGOLD Forum's MONTH of Celebrations !! The Castle decorations have begun and the music (under the direction of PH in LA) is warming up.
BIG plans are being finalized in the Throne Room and the SECOND call for ALL LURKERS to Read the "Forum Decorum Rules", and make that FREE REGISTRATION request to obtain posting privileges, has sounded.
WHY all the hoopla and hustle bustle, one asks ?
Could it be the Celebration of the Forum's forthcoming Fourth Year Birthday ?

YEP ! AND, the rumor is that the Castle's Treasury Vault is overloaded and that true WEALTH will be shared amongst the Goldhearts of THIS Castle.

First will be a GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT Contest, with REQUIRED statement of thought on a specific question.
(Watch for the announcement soon.)

THEN after the end of that Contest, "THE BIG CONTEST" will cap off the MONTH. Details of "THE BIG CONTEST" will be announced my SIR MK himself. (However, rumors are that preliminary historical hints may be leaked from the Tower.)

TownCrierSame story everywhere? To whom is your portfolio entrusted?#8410509/01/02; 11:07:11

(scotsman, 1 Sept 2002) -- THE cry of the old City hands in the dying days of the last millennium was that the Square Mile was populated by youngsters who had never seen a bear market. Today the complaint is that the investment houses are full of youngsters who have never seen a bull market. It is now 30 months since the pin of reality touched the balloon of inflated share prices and the long bull run ended. A bear market is defined as a 20% fall, but we have now had that and had it all over again to put us in double-bear territory.

And during that slide in share prices, City houses have cut their cloth to suit today's straitened style. The old hands remain because it is they who are doing the cutting, but the thirtysomethings that arrived on the post-yuppie wave are being edged out and replaced by even younger equivalents on much-reduced salaries and promises of bonuses based on improbable performance.


With the proper use of gold you don't have to be an active gamer or risk your stakes with a rookie.


misetichThe Hard Consequences of Easy Loans - In the '90s, banks lent freely to corporations and syndicated the risk. Now, as debtors default, small investors could be hurt#8410609/01/02; 11:07:19


Little-noticed changes in the ways banks indemnified their lending risks during the 1990s have left huge loans in the portfolios of bond mutual funds and hedge funds -- loans that are turning out to be far more volatile than anyone expected. Many of them were concentrated in the troubled telecom and energy-trading sectors. While the loans' losses don't come close to those experienced in the stock or high-yield bond markets, pressure could rise to require more disclosure to investors of the terms and conditions attached to company debt.
As the 1990s progressed into the New Millennium, an increasing amount of that borrowed money came from banks. In 1991, a total of $234 billion of syndicated bank loans was issued, according to bank-loan information company Loan Pricing Corp (LPC). In 2000, issuance peaked at $1.2 trillion before slipping back in 2001 to $1.1 trillion.

That amount outpaced corporate-bond issuance, which totaled $879 billion in 2001, according to the Bond Market Assn. In the first half of 2002, $527 billion in bank loans were granted, far outstripping bond issuance.
INTRICATE COVENANTS. The syndication process also has some drawbacks, however. First and foremost, it seems to have allowed higher-risk companies to obtain more debt than they could have otherwise, increasing the potential for defaults and bankruptcies down the road. "To the degree that you can diversify risks, then credit becomes more widely available," says John Lonski, chief economist at Moody's Investor Services.

Indeed, the amount of "leveraged," or below-investment-grade loans, has made up an increasingly large percentage of total syndicated loans over the past decade, according to LPC. Bank lending is still very dependent on relationships between the lender and the borrower, so these loans are often structured much more intricately than stock and bond offerings, including little-known covenants that don't need to be reported in financial statements.

Several of this year's high-profile bankruptcies were triggered when a company failed to meet a specific hurdle, and its bank loan or line of credit was suddenly withdrawn. At Pacific Gas & Electric, banks withdrew financing when the utility's debt rating was downgraded, causing it to default on its bonds and notes. Some of the covenants are equivalent to telling a homeowner that if he or she loses his or her job, the mortgage must be repaid in full, says Lonski.
DISAPPEARING EQUITY. Inflated equity markets also encouraged more lending, points out Lonski, since many companies could boast low debt-to-equity ratios -- even though they were losing money. "The gross overvaluation of U.S. common stock made it possible for companies to take on so much debt," says Lonski. Corporate debt outstanding as a percentage of the market value of stocks in the first quarter of 2000 was actually quite low -- just 28%. In contrast, in the third quarter of 1990, debt totaled 94% of the market value of common equity, says Lonski.
Most of the fixed-income community is quick to point out that so far in this recession, debt losses have been minor compared to earlier cycles. Of course, if the economy deteriorates and syndicated bank loans trigger more bankruptcies, investors will be less forgiving. For now, the process of syndication, which allowed banks to lend risky companies huge amounts of money, is one piece of the New Economy puzzle investors should understand - - and watch closely.
The worst is still to come from the bubble burst - and it won't be long before a bank derivative blow up occurs

Physical Gold shines the most during turbulent times - Get some

Got gold?

misetichCrisis at Citi - As the stock slips, loans sour, scandals surface, and conflicts proliferate, Sandy Weill's legacy as architect of the universal bank is on the line#8410709/01/02; 11:20:22


The most pressing of these problems are the scandals rocking Wall Street. It's starting to look as though the very model of the financial conglomerate is fundamentally flawed. Sprawling institutions such as Citi, J.P. Morgan Chase, Merrill Lynch, and others are riddled with conflicts of interest, compounded by abuses by aggressive bankers. Consider how banks and brokers have used loans as loss leaders to win lucrative investment-banking assignments or how they have cobbled together dubious structured-finance deals that have helped corporate clients mask their true condition. Or how research analysts at some firms have hyped the stocks of banking clients to investors even as they disparaged them in private e-mails. In the latest revelation, Citi's Salomon Smith Barney (SSB) investment-banking subsidiary gave telecom CEOs preferential access to shares of hot initial public offerings that could be flipped in hours or days at great profit. All of these schemes were designed to lock in fees at the expense of smaller shareholders who, in many cases, were stuck holding worthless securities.
It is far too early to write off Weill, but his personal vulnerability to the reform movement now rolling over Corporate America was underscored recently when Spitzer broadened his investigation of SSB to include the Citi CEO. The immediate issue is whether Weill pressured star research analyst Jack Grubman to upgrade his rating on AT&T from "neutral" to "buy" to help SSB win a lucrative underwriting assignment from the telecom giant in 2000. Weill declined to be interviewed, but a Citigroup spokesman says that he never told any of SSB's research analysts what to do and that any suggestion to the contrary is "outrageous and untrue."
Weill did not begin to answer his own challenge publicly until after Citigroup was raked over the coals at a Senate hearing into Enron on July 23-24. Members of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations accused both Citi and J.P. Morgan Chase of helping Enron to mask its deteriorating finances by arranging $8 billion in "pre-pay" transactions--loans artfully contrived to look like commodity purchases. Internal e-mails obtained by the committee seemed to show that SSB bankers allowed Enron to improperly account for one such 1999 financing in order to keep $125 million off its books.

Citi - JP Morgan etc. represent a portion of a whole bunch of rotten apples in the bushel - and the worst is still to come for them

Got gold?

TownCrierIn a nutshell#8410809/01/02; 11:20:29

(Universal Press Syndicate -- September 1, 2002)

Price-earnings ratios on stocks seem to have nowhere to grow and are prone to rising interest rates if the economy picks up steam. Plus, a strengthening dollar could depress the overseas profits of globally oriented U.S. firms, putting a damper on earnings growth. "There's nothing the economy could do to make me consider the S&P 500 a good buy here," says Ben Inker, asset-allocation director of Grentham, Mayo, Van Otterloo.


Smart investors know the government will not sit idly while the economy weakens and slides down a hole. The government players will TRY to do SOMETHING. They have the ability to print, and they will throw new money at the problems, in effect forcing everyone to contribute to a more evenly shared loss, spread through inflation. This is a primary reason why investors continue to shift their portfolios in favor of gold. Call Centennial next week for assistance with your allocation.


a nation of oneresponse to Socrates964 (09/01/02; 06:29:36MT - msg#: 84095)#8410909/01/02; 11:21:33

Several years ago I read that one of the things that brought down Ancient Rome was an annual inflation rate of 3% that continued for a hundred years. In another place, previous to that, I encountered the information that throughout human history it has been the case far more often than not, that when a person bought a new home, he could rely on its value declining from the time that he bought it, not increasing. From this it may be surmised that ours are not ordinary circumstances, and, further, with some imagination perhaps, that conditions which prevail now are not coincidental or accidental or incidental but managed, controlled, even contrived for this very purpose, namely, to increase the wealth of some at the expense of others. Not to mention living off the rich land of North America and aggressively expanding without regard to desireable objectives for more than five hundred years, as our people have now done. Sorry, but once I evaluate the reliability of a source, I have seldom made a practice of retaining it. I may change this habit. But at this point that is how it has been.
TownCrierThis is what our elected officials see when they look at their voters#8411009/01/02; 11:29:19

September 1, 2002
AP WASHINGTON -- Many Americans this Labor Day are thankful just to have jobs.

...The list of large employers seeking bankruptcy protection is formidable: Kmart, Polaroid, Enron Corp., WorldCom Inc., US Airways and more. Companies recently announcing layoffs include American Airlines, Charles Schwab, Williams Cos., Coca-Cola and Nokia.


You can almost hear the printing presses rolling out their "solution" for this pesky economic illness.

Gold is your immunization against the ill-effects of their "cure".


BelgianThe future purchasing power (PP) of Gold ?#8411109/01/02; 12:44:05

The present PP of Gold is quasi in line with the "official" COL (cost of living). Official, that is completely falsified. This falsification increased gradually over the past decades. In Euroland the COL-index, excludes energy and many other heavely taxed items as sigarettes and other items that are cataloged as basic needs (rights). These falsifications are absolutely necessary to hide the real COL and to prevent a faster currency depreciation through what is commonly called, inflation.

The COL-index has also been strongly moderated by the recycling effect of taxation reaching maximums. Production of real goods/services in places where currencies have depreciated to very little purchasing power and highly exposed to continued, rotating competition pressure.
No better example than goldmining that is done in countries where there's even not enough to print the virtual worthless confetti.

How can we possibly guess the real price and in what currency for any given product, with all these falsifications still going/growing strong/stronger ?

With a POO above 30$, all transport in Euroland stopped and desert oil advised us to lower taxes (75%) on the refined, rather than accepting the social implications (humhum) of a higher POO ! Now what will happen to the whole of price-structures when POO goes from 30$ to 100$ in the not too distant future ? Time out for any kind of falsification and day of reckoning. Chaos and panic. Unmanageble crisis situation on a global scale and the real meaning of hyperinflation will become clear. Financial collapse wich cannot be overcome with a general devaluation but simply by abandoning the old confetti to be replaced with a new one. It is the POO that can speed up the slower detoriation proces of the debt-growth.

The above very likely evolution doesn't give us a clue on the future purchasing power of Gold in numerical certainties. How will the debtbergs be erased or melted ?
How "hyper" will inflation be as to keep things moving or bluntly re-started ? Can an emerging new reserve-currency
be referred to the old ones (x times PP)?
How much default will be tolerated in proportion to devalued (hyperinflated) roll overs ? How much volume on production of real goods/services will be left in proportion to the new volume of new (revalued) currency (currencies) ? Financial collapse and its consequences (psychological impacts) are not to be calculated in advance.
Can the Argentina aftermath serve as a model of what might come ? But we will not be dealing with a local currency with limited impact but with "The" reserve currency, the US$ !

In chaos and panic, Gold's purchasing power is to be trusted, because it will have broken FREE. Free to protect and save. Reconsider its 25 fold revaluation within 10 years (1971 > 1980). Today it will be a multiple of those 25 times. It will not only compensate for lost purchasing power but will be FREE as to prevent the same mismanagement of the past. Free to signal that Gold Holders TRUST OR DISTRUST the rulers, any rulers.

A further prosperity contraction and giving back on what was (falsely) acquired, will not be tolerated by the general public. Even if it was possible to manage such a transition period as interlude for a relance. There are not enough alternatives to replace substantial amounts of crude oil. Even very expensive crude. There are still enough reserves of oil to discourage the intensive research on alternatives (fuel cells and other). And who is going to pay for such a vast renewal on infrastructures. See what happened to the web and telco's.

Today I received a colorfull invitation for attending a national investors symposium. Guess what is pictured on the frontpage...wafers of Gold bullion ! This with only one Gold advocate out of the seven top analysts/speakers (financial koelies).

Gandalf the WhiteSuggested reading from the First Brithday Contest !#8411209/01/02; 13:29:19

Leigh (09/21/99; 18:32:38MDT - Msg ID:14075)
O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore

We assemble together this evening, attired in festive garb and chattering excitedly as the celebration begins. It is the first anniversary of our beloved Table Round. Torches cast a hazy golden glow throughout the Hall, and we see that much care has been put forth to make our meeting place lovely and inviting. As we look around, we see faces unfamiliar to us, and yet...curiously, we feel a deep sense of closeness to one another. Excitement builds as we introduce ourselves, and hugs are exchanged. We laugh happily as we hear cries of: "You're just the way I imagined! How delightful it is to meet you at last!"

Our host motions us to the Table, and we take our places. We can see our group as a whole now. There are old friends and new ones, very distinguished guests and happy-go-lucky souls. It is a group that anywhere else might seem incongruous, but we hold each member dear. Our talk becomes subdued as we keep an open ear for the voice of our host. At last he rises and says, "Forum members, I have a most wonderful surprise for you this evening! May I introduce to you, Sir FOA!" We stare at the door in open-mouthed expectation, and a smiling gentleman walks in. He grasps the outstretched hands of those whom he passes, and walks to the head of the table. "Thank you, Mr. Kosares," he says. "I am honored to be here tonight. It has been a most interesting year, and I have enjoyed sharing it with all of you. But I did not come alone this evening. I have brought with me a man who has a strong love for mankind, one who holds much wisdom and a deep sense of honor. I am proud to be called the Friend of ANOTHER!" We Forum members jump to our feet as Sir ANOTHER enters the room. We cannot seem to stop applauding as we gaze upon the kindly face of the one whose thoughts have inspired and guided us for so long.

Our celebration lasts for many hours, yet each moment is touched with a sense of magic. We who entered the Hall as strangers have become the very dearest of friends. Throughout the past year, we have shared each other's concerns, suffered together, helped one another in our quest for knowledge. Daily we learn more about each other. We admire strengths and have compassion on weakness. Tonight we have much to celebrate, and it is to our USAGOLD Forum fellows that we instinctively turn. The lure of the mighty Table Round is overwhelming. It keeps us up late at night, and it beckons us in our sleep. We happily obey its call, knowing that our Forum friends are always glad to hear from us. May there be many, many more years of comraderie for us all at the Oaken Table of Yore!
Note: -- This deep thinking and heartfelt posting from Lady Leigh was one of the first entries in the FIRST USAGOLD Porum's "Birthday Contest".
Getting the picture ?

MO VER MEGBuying Silver#8411309/01/02; 13:43:32

I must believe that someone (besides me) is buying silver futures and thinking about taking delivery. It is the absolute sharpest tool available to pith the CABAL.

I could sure use some advice on taking delivery - pitfalls etc. Anyone have a thought on this or maybe a good site?

How about taking possession in another country? Since trust is earned and dishonesty yields paranoia, this seems reasonable to me at this time (things have really slid a long way for parinoia to seem reasonable).


R PowellMO VER MEG // silver delivery#8411409/01/02; 14:31:25

I tried last year to obtain a loan to buy 1000 ounce silver bars. I found a refining source that had bars for sale at an incredibly good price but they would only sell to dealers or banks who held an account with them. Neither of the two banks the refiner mentioned would consider loaning money for silver to be held in the bank as collateral for the loan. The bank investment officer said no amount of downpayment was sufficient as the bank no longer dealt with metals at all.

However, I'd be willing to bet M.K. could broker any amount of silver you wish to buy, delivered to your door. I don't work for CPM and can not speak for them but delivery of metal to clients is their daily business. It seems logical to speak to them. Delivery off Comex requires you to make arrangements for pickup and transportation to wherever you wish to keep your stash. Or, you can "take" delivery from Comex in paper form while storing your silver with them. Comex may end up as the "sellor of last resort" as silver supplies are consumed. The supplier of the round silver blanks needed for the government's coin program has begun to build inventory even though official government buying is not scheduled until next year. I doubt that this silver will come from Comex but this is just my opinion.

Note to CPM- Please e-mail me if you would like more information concerning my source of silver bars. I've no idea if you already broker through them and it's none of my business but if my information can help, it's your's for the asking.

MO VER MEGR Powell#8411509/01/02; 14:53:47

Thanks for responding. I appreciate everything you told me.

I am thinking out loud here, but lets say I have silver futures contracts covering 100,000 ounces (20 contracts) and say silver was up to $6.00 or $7.00 by the end of the contract. Now, I can liquidate and take profits or since my basis is in the $4.70 range, I would have some working room to purchase the physical.

If I buy physical in that quantity, I would like to disrupt the COMEX supply as much as possible (boy, if I ever hit the lotto, silver would spike for a couple of days).

It seems as though my next step is to find a bank willing to help me make the purchase.

Perhaps Michael K. can help me out?

Again, thanks for your help.


R PowellMO VER MEG#8411609/01/02; 15:49:06

I like your thinking of taking supply off Comex and often wonder why someone of means (big money) doesn't initiate a squeeze on the shorts. That it hasn't happened begs the question, "Is our fundamental analysis- that silver supplies are dangerously low- correct? Why hasn't the market already reacted even without an increase in manipulated buying?" I've some theories but no facts.

I don't believe the different world silver exchanges reflect the POS according to the law of supply and demand at this time. When they do is when POS will rise. Many analysts believe that the spot price may have to actually exceed the exchange price to awaken the market players to the fundamental facts. If this condition happens it will not exist for long as any such price divergence will bring in the arbitrage money immediately. But, this event will shock the market and prices much higher in the blink of an eye. I am holding futures positions and have considered how to deal with them if this scenario occurs. Emotions will run high when POG and POS run much higher. Emotions and trading are like drinking and driving- not a good combination! Comex has placed a clause in small print limiting their obligation to delivery of 7.5 million ounces in metal form per month. That is, they have granted themselves the option of fiat settlement if necessary beyond this limit. Comex is a paper game with paper rules. It offers potential leveraged profits along with risk, especially for those seeking physical delivery. However, beware that it is (imho)presently a small, thinly traded, easily manipulated casino but with the potential for the dealers to lose control.

I wish you good luck with your purchase. Consider the ability to resell your purchase when considering what form of silver to buy or hold physical forever and let the futures' profits supply the fiat. That's my dream. Do you now hold futures?
Happy holiday

R PowellMO VER MEG#8411709/01/02; 16:08:57

Question answered.
I see in 84113 that you did say that you have futures. Perhaps a call and some questions to your broker could answer the logistics involved with taking Comex delivery. Now, at $6-7.00/ounce but bought at $4.70 some contracts could be offset for the fiat needed to take delivery of the rest.
I'm curious. If you find out about delivery procedures, please let us know. I've no clue but do know it can be done.

kasperjackmining veb reports#8411809/01/02; 16:49:37

NEW YORK -- Global collaboration among JP Morgan's top analysts shows that gold producers
lightened their hedge books by 365 tonnes, or 11.7 million ounces in the half year to end
June; equivalent to a little under a fifth of all new gold extracted in the period. Total
dehedging for this year could exceed 500 tonnes, or 16.1 million ounces, leaving roughly
2,520 tonnes (81.1moz) committed to hedging by the leading producers. Put options protect a
further 2,480 tonnes (79.7moz).

The accelerated dehedging occurred in the wake of the collapse of the gold contango last
year and US interest rates remaining in the basement. The analysts – John Bridges (New York),
Geoff Breen (Sydney) and James Wellsted (Johannesburg) – don't see much room for further
cuts for the rest of the year, although Placer Dome got in early with a 52.9 tonne (1.7moz /
20% of committed ounces) reduction announced on Thursday last week.

R PowellGold and silver price predictions // M.K.#8411909/01/02; 17:57:30

were given as $1,000/ounce for gold by Dec. 2003 and $10.00/ounce for silver in the September to October timeframe.

So what Rich, someone is always giving predictions somewhere? I thought these from Saturday's INO forum were noteworthy as the poster's handle is M. Kosares. Note- anyone can post there using any handle he/she wants. I hope that particular M. Kosares is clairvoyant.

slingshotSiege Engine#8412009/01/02; 18:25:45

Gold above $300.00

It was an early rise for Gandalf and Bonfir for they would have some distance to travel before reaching their destination. Shadowfax was saddled by Gandalf but Bonfir preferred to walk and Gandalf decided to do the same. As it turned out walking gave them the time to uncover the beauties of the valley. Large oak trees with cooling shade. Blackberry bushes for a treat along the way. Deer which came to drink from the stream and the ever playful squirrels moving from tree to tree giving warning chips as the intruders came closer. Bonfir would point out various plants and tell Gandalf of their medicial value contained in the root, buds and leaves.The two men conversed as if they were old friends. An internal kinship between them. The pressing issues were set aside and all in the world was right. After some time they come upon a waterfall that gave life to the stream. Bonfir entered the water and Gandalf and Shadowfax followed him. On the other side was a path leading behind the thundering water and they disappeared behind the watery curtain. They walked along the passage as the water rushed pass them till a large cave entrance was before them.
They were about to enter a place few have seen. Gandalf entered, bringing back memories of "Under The Mountain". Soon the tunnel gave way to vaulted ceilings and collums with fine decorations.Floors turned from rough rock to polished floors, which reflected the light of torches showing them the way. A large door was before them and opened as they came near.A man came from within and assuring Shadowfaxes safety took him by the reigns. When they entered Gandalf could see people on both sides of the hall. He was curious for they wore clothes he had never seen before. Their complections were from dark to white. They had hair of gold while some had hair as black as obsidian. He then knew the tales of old were true.
The whisperings revealed he was the stranger who threw balls of light. The gathering widen at the end of the room and there stood several men. There was no throne or steps to assend.
They stood as equals and looked at Bonfir and Gandalf as they approached. A few steps before them Bonfir stopped and one of the men spoke.

Gandalf the White, Welcome. May your stay be a pleasant one.
To You Bonfir,welcome home and thank you for the safe passage of the wizard.Turning to Gandalf once again he said,You have many questions and I hope to have the answers you seek.There is little time and your quest is a heavy one.
My name is Stephen the Great, and I will help you if I can.
Gandalf giving a slight bow spoke, Thank you Stephen the Great. Gandalf was then motioned to follow him and Bonfir stayed behind. They all entered a small room containing a round table and chairs and when all were seated Stepen the Great spoke directly to Gandalf.
You have come a long way in your life Gandalf, and we have heard of your ventures. Because of your knowledge of the forces of nature and how you have use them to do good, we have allowed you into our home. I see you are somewhat surprized by my remarks and how we know of you. Let me say that a pointed hat does not make a wizard. Many have sought our help, few receive it. We have been here many years and are the outcasts of our brothers in life for we all searched for a higher understanding of the world.It is the common thread that binds us.

We have seen your power at the castle gate,against the Lord of the Castle and the King with No Name.We watched the siege and the burning of the trebuchet.The injury of your messenger and the dangerous ride to save his life by one of the Ladies. Lady Waverider is her name, is it not? And yes, Your mercy, to help those who asked for mercy. When others would have put them to death.

Good wizard, your actions have spoke well of you and you company long before you have come here.

But your quest to FREE GOLD will not be an easy task. The King with No Name, has spread his power far and wide. Consuming those who fail to see his trap. He holds Gold close to his heart, but proclaims it is worthless.The people believing this give up their gold for a promise and his protection and they have neither.
Gandalf the White, the King with No Name does not know all.The forces which he can not see or control are against him. He will fall and Gold will be SET FREE.

There was a short pause and then Stephen the Great asked to have some food and drink brought to them.
Hungry, Gandalf the White?

Indeed I am, answered Gandalf.

MO VER MEGR Powell#8412109/01/02; 18:35:54

About 20 of them in different months.

I invested in these after doing the physical thing.

I would like to have about 100 of those big door stops.

My commodities broker deals with grain and has no solid information on silver delivery. I shall keep looking.


Socrates964Belgian#8412209/01/02; 18:40:19

agree with your analysis, but it was never my intention to suggest that 1888 prices should act as a benchmark (if PPP doesn't work in space - i.e. between countries, why should it work in time - no a priori reason).

Having said this, I do think that this kind of price comparison is useful as a refutation of arguments that the POG is at fair values based on correction by cumulative inflation since WWII;

I also think that there is something to be learned from looking at 'rich peoples' prices' over the ages, since these incorporate a vanity/snob element, and are hence the least likely to be rigidly correlated to oil prices.

sectorBulgarian Counterfeiters Stay Ahead#8412309/01/02; 20:01:09

Filed at 1:12 p.m. ET
SOFIA, Bulgaria (AP) -- Benjamin Franklin never looked so good.

His jowls are missing some wrinkles, his smirk is Mona Lisa sly and sexy, and he's sporting a Kirk Douglas dimple on his chin. At least that's how he appears on the $100 bill on Rumyan Chobanov's desk.

It's a fake, but few would notice. The engraving is crisp, the paper feels convincing to the touch, and the note sports enough watermarks and other security features to pass for the real thing at a grocery store in Detroit or Des Moines.

``It's really not that well-made, but an American citizen would probably accept such a bank note,'' said Chobanov, chief teller at Bulgaria's central bank and an expert on counterfeiting.

In this knockoff republic -- a Balkan bargain basement where you can sniff out a $150 bottle of Chanel No. 5 for $35 or snag a pirate copy of Eminem's latest CD for $3.50 -- bogus bills have become Bulgaria's claim to fame.

Now that the European Union's common currency is in circulation, shadowy counterfeiters who've managed to stay one step ahead of technology and the law have added 100-euro notes to their bag of tricks.

Interpol and the Secret Service contend the $100 notes rival those that roll off the presses at the U.S. Treasury.

Pay close attention to the argument for a "new" currency based upon the "anti-counter fitting" premise.

The conventional laser/inkjet printer watermark is surface-applied and visible, the Crane paper [Used by the US Treasury for its bills], interstitial watermark is not and is therefore immune to counter-fitting--Andrew Jackson's stylish coif not withstanding.

This piece floated by the AP may be an early warning that a US currency devaluation is not far off.

GATA has information originating from deep within the Administration that is very pessimistic on the economy AND the DOW. A breakdown to say...6000 in the DOW may take the last sandbag from the financial dike.

If the Admin is to alleviate the mounting debt and mitigate litigation exposures at critical derivatives-laden Federal Reserve banks, they must fashion a plan to dilute that debt in a rapid manner. The Fed simply cannot survive the failure of JPM or Citi Bank via litigation or other mounting pressures. In other words they don't have the luxury of steady inflation since their risks are at specific banks with near-term deadline structures.

A deval of the three major currencies fits the bill. Gold would "Float" as it did after President Nixon repudiated the US gold debt in 1971. The Admin might introduce onerous regulations of its internal trade--anything is possible now that we see a President whirling outside of all normal policy trajectories.

Even Bob Dole chimed in on the side of reason in the Iraq war push. Colin Powell is rumored to be stepping down as SECSTATE in January 2003.

The frenetic, haphazard manner in which the putative Iraq war has been presented to the public, Congress and the World suggests that another very bad, and so far unarticulated threat is yet to be revealed. The threat could be economic or terrorist-related. Whatever the threat to the US is, the Administration's outward military plan to deal with it is draconian in the main.

If Mr. Bush is willing to engage in an internally AND externally unpopular war he must also be willing, by inference, to engage in an unpopular solution to a host of chronic economic problems—one of which could be a devaluation that would be spun as a new currency set of bills and an "Adjustment" to US long-term debt [Including time deposits]. Why not take all the hits at once?

Moreover, Mr. Greenspan seemed on Friday to have already delivered his "I did everything I could" defense.

It's almost as if they have already abandoned the twin paths of economic and military reason—all to avoid an inevitable financial disaster and consequent loss of face wrought by a decade of greed, corruption and especially arrogance.

To overtly take the oil via installed puppets, at great loss of life, to save a US gluttonous lifestyle, in front of the World is to cross a threshold that harbors a universe of future instability and pain.

MKRich. . . .The Imposter at INO#8412409/01/02; 20:05:15

Rich, the individual at INO is an imposter and I have contacted the owners over there (who are friends of mine) to find out who this person is. He, she, it is obviously trying to use my reputation for his/her/its own purposes. Once I have the person's name and contact information, I'll turn it over to the lawyers.

I find the use of my name for these purposes insidious and the claims you cited for gold and silver's performance preposterous. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Once again, I do not favor gold as a speculative investment. I see it as a long term portfolio insurance against a multitude of potential economic and political disasters gathering like the Horsemen on our collective horizons -- not the least of which being local currency erosion no matter where you live. ('Tis the times!!) Any time you see speculators using my name to promote enticing the unwary to gamble on gold, you know its not me. That's not where I'm coming from. . . . . . . . . Better to own ten ounces of gold bought and paid for than a thousand controlled by gold's opposition for which they've issued you a piece of paper. If we do see gold at $1000, it will not be coincident with a pretty economic picture. Like any insurance, I own it with the hope I'll never have to use it. At the same time given the nature of the modern economy, I believe we are going to have to use it someday.

Thanks for the heads up, Rich. . . .


Black Blade"The Barbarous Relic Files" - Trove of gold coins given to owners' descendant #8412509/01/02; 20:38:21


Police have decided that an 86-year-old man from Toyama is entitled to a large number of koban (gold oval coins) and other coins unearthed at a construction site in Oyabe, Toyama Prefecture, in March, after finding that the cache belonged to a wealthy local farmer who was an ancestor of the man. The excavated koban coins from the Edo period (1603-1868) and other gold coins from the Meiji era (1868-1912) are worth about 39 million yen, according to numismatists. Police had held the coins as lost property since March. Family lore had it that gold coins were buried on the property. The 1,295 coins include oval coins of the Keicho era (1596-1615), which overlaps the early Edo period, and 10-yen gold coins of the early Meiji era.

Black Blade: Don't you just hate it when those "barbarous relics" pop up and ruin a nice little excavation project? Hmmm…

WaveriderSlingshot#8412609/01/02; 20:59:05

A pleasure to read good Sir! The plot thickens...enter Stephen the Great....
Waverider :)

Black BladeAsia Starts Off Ugly#8412709/01/02; 21:43:30

Asian markets go negative early tonight. Meanwhile is nearly flat on light trade. There probably won't be much movement in gold as traders will be waitring for direction from Wall Street and the markets will be closed for the Labor Day holiday. If the precious metals make any significant move it will likely be due to currency and stock market flucuations in Europe.

- Black Blade


(War) Drums Keep Pounding Rhythm To My Brain

Ed STEER's commentry posted at Le Metropole Cafe is an absolute classic. He wraps it all together in a very convincing manner---It won't end pretty! Guess we all know that but this wraps it up well.

Black BladeMixed Signals#841299/2/02; 01:31:30

All currencies higher, gold flat, and petroleum at $30/bbl. Markets lower in Asia and Europe. There's a lot of economic data to be released in the US this week and all indications are that it will be very bad. Unemployment is likely to rise and pre-earnings warning season is upon us. Several tech companies have pre-warned (from Intel and IBM to Dell and HPQ). The rumor is that there could be some high profile "perp walks" scheduled within the next couple of weeks. Enron execs perhaps? Maybe Martha? Hmmm...

- Black Blade

Black BladeMarkets In Death Spiral#841309/2/02; 01:42:50

The Asian markets got thoroughly thrashed in overnight trade. The Euro markets have resumed the full retreat from last weeks collapsing indices. Thankfully the US markets are closed for Labor Day. US market index futures are pointing lower. We are now in September, usually the worst month for the stock markets. Also of note is that US retailers are scared to death of dismal sales in the traditional "Back To School" sales season. This is usually the second most important retail period next to Christmas. It is also an accurate barometer of holiday sales in the US. It looks like a "Grinch Christmas" this year as consumers are beginning to pull in their horns. Chain stores are reporting one of the worst sales periods in years and even discount retailers are reporting terrible sales data. In a word - "Grim". Actually in two words - "Very Grim".

- Black Blade

Belgian@ Downunder#841319/2/02; 03:22:47

Thanks mate for the Ed Steer link at Le Métropole !
Feeling childishly happy with the very balanced way, Ed is wrapping it all up. It's a pitty we haven't heard (or did you-?) of this London guy, Walburton, anymore (Permanent Depreciating Currencies). No wonder, Michael Kosares is advocating ~Gold~ as a long term "investment".

Black BladeGold Is Used For Payments For Illegal Imports#841329/2/02; 04:21:37


Gold is a major item from Bangladesh to settle payments for illegal imports from India in a brisk cross-border trade that outplays formal trading, a study shows. On the other hand, gold is the most precious item being smuggled out from Bangladesh mainly to meet the payments against contraband imports. Besides, the economists studying the surreptitious trade have reasons to believe that Bangladesh is being used as a transit for international gold smuggling.

Black Blade: When bum wipers won't do, there's always Gold!

BlackjackPositive mention for GOLD in establishment news!#8413309/02/02; 05:18:06

New York, Sept. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Commodity prices are having their strongest rally in 19 years in a jump that analysts and investors say shows few signs of ending.

A three-month drought in the Midwest that's dimmed prospects for U.S. crops has sent corn and soybean prices up by almost a third this year. Crude oil is up 46 percent on concern that the U.S. will attack Iraq, disrupting supplies from the Middle East. Gold, which languished for years, is up 13 percent as investors sought refuge from tumbling stocks.

``Prices have been going crazy,'' said Gilbert Raske, a director at JGC International LLC, a Chicago-based exporter of grain, fertilizer, coal and fuel. ``Our customers are much more aggressive about securing supplies'' than they were before the rally, said Raske, whose company recently won a contract to supply corn to South Korean livestock-feed companies.

The Reuters-Commodity Research Bureau index, which measures 17 commodity futures markets, rose 1.79 to 219.20 on Friday, the highest level since May 2001. The index, rebounding from a two- year low last October, has gained 15 percent so far this year and is heading toward its biggest rise since 1983.

Another benchmark, the Goldman Sachs Commodity Index, which is weighted toward energy and includes more industrial metals, is up 27 percent this year.

Corn has surged 28 percent this year and soybeans are up 29 percent. Prices have been climbing partly because overseas processors have been eager to lock in shipments before prices climb even higher, traders said.

``Commodities are up because supplies are down,'' said Paul Kasriel, chief economist at Northern Trust Securities in Chicago. ``Next year we'll probably see some commodity prices go even higher.''

Cotton Mills

A 31 percent rise in cotton prices this year probably won't start showing up in higher jean prices for at least another year, some buyers said.

Cone Mills Corp., the world's biggest denim maker, locked in cotton prices when they were at a 29-year low last year because of record world production. The purchases have allowed the company to reduce its cotton costs by about a third from last year, said Scott Wenhold, treasurer of the Greensboro, North Carolina-based company.

``We're always hedged 12 months out, so the higher prices won't start to impact us at least for another year,'' Wenhold said. ``And that's assuming we couldn't pass on the higher costs'' to customers.

Few manufacturers stuck with paying higher raw-material costs have been able to raise the price of their products.

U.S. economic growth slowed to an annual rate of 1.1 percent in the second quarter from 5 percent in the first quarter, the Commerce Department said. The slowing economy has kept producers from raising their prices for fear of losing business, analysts said.

`Damper' on Prices

``If anything, the weak global economy has been a damper for commodity prices,'' said William Byers, senior managing director at Bear, Stearns & Co. in New York. Prices have been climbing this year largely because of reduced supply, not demand, he said.

Placer Dome Inc., the world's sixth-largest gold producer, plans to reduce by 20 percent the amount of gold it sells before it's mined, a strategy gold companies use to lock in prices. The practice, used to help companies avoid price declines, also keeps them from benefiting from rallies.

Gold will probably rise further this year ``as we go into the holiday seasons in the West and the marriage season in India,'' Wayne Murdy, chairman and chief executive of Newmont Mining Corp., said on Bloomberg TV. Newmont is the world's largest gold producer.

Unlike gold and agricultural commodities, petroleum prices have been climbing for political reasons.

Iraq Concerns

Crude oil prices in New York are close to $29 a barrel after rising to an 18-month high above $30 in August on concern that supplies from Iraq or its Persian Gulf neighbors might be disrupted by U.S. military action.

Estimates of the so-called war premium vary between $1 a barrel to as much as $8, analysts said.

``If oil is at $29 then maybe $4 to $5 is related to bullish market psychology, which is principally related to Iraq,'' said James Burkhard, associate director of Cambridge Energy Research Associates in Boston.

Members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries will gather in Osaka, Japan, on Sept. 19 to decide on crude-oil production levels for the final three months of the year.

Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest oil exporter and most influential OPEC member, wants to raise output, a Vienna-based OPEC official has said. An increase might put a dent in this year's rally, analysts said.

Most other members of the producer group favor keeping production levels unchanged.

``If we take into account reports on inventories of crude and products, existing supplies'' are sufficient, Ali Rodriguez,president of Venezuelan state oil company Petroleos de Venezuela SA, in an interview with Union Radio. Venezuela is OPEC's third biggest member, after Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Spartacus"chickenhawks"#8413409/02/02; 07:10:08

---On Aug. 25, former Secretary of State James Baker III added his name to the list of opponents of a unilateral American attack on Iraq on the op ed page of the New York Times. The previous day, the Tampa Tribune had reported that Gen. Anthony Zinni (USMC-ret), who was the previous Commander-in-Chief of the Central Command, and now an adviser to Secretary of State Colin Powell, came out strongly against an Iraq attack, warning of grave strategic consequences.

Zinni also assailed the group of Bush Administration neo-con war advocates who never served a day in uniform. This whole grouping—including Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, James Woolsey, Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas), and even Vice President Dick Cheney—is being widely referred to as the "chickenhawks."

"It's pretty interesting," Zinni told an audience in Tallahassee, Fla., "that all the generals see it the same way, and all the others who have never fired a shot and are hot to go to war, see it another way."---

misetichWorkers Are Angry and Fearful This Labor Day#8413509/02/02; 08:46:21



With longshoremen, janitors and Boeing employees threatening major strikes and employees reeling from corporate scandals and rising unemployment, the mood among American workers has turned anxious and even angry this Labor Day.

Unions are threatening walkouts by 10,500 longshoremen, 10,000 Boston janitors and 25,000 Boeing employees for reasons that are worrying American workers in general: fast-rising health care costs, slower wage growth and fears about job security.
"There is high unemployment, and it will remain that way for a while," said Lawrence Mishel, the president of the Economic Policy Institute, a liberal research group. "Although it may have looked like a shallow recession, for some work force groups it's not so shallow."

In its new study, "The State of Working America," the institute found that wages were growing at their slowest level since 1995 and that the income gap between the richest Americans and everybody else was widening again, after narrowing in the late 1990's.
A survey of 900 workers, union and nonunion, by Peter D. Hart Research Associates, found that 58 percent were dissatisfied with the state of the economy, up from 34 percent in early 2001. The poll, released on Thursday, also found that 39 percent had negative feelings toward corporations, and 30 percent had positive feelings, a sharp reversal from January 2001, when 42 percent reported positive feelings toward corporations and 25 percent said they had negative feelings. The margin of error was plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.
Labor is in tough - little do they know on whats really happening- Mainstream is being fed ad nauseum on the "strong economic fundamentals" "no inflation" yet consumers/workers are relying on debts to assist them in maintaining a reasonable standard of living - 30 years ago 1 wage earner per family was enough - working 40 hours a week -
During the various stages and the productivity miracle - families are having difficulties maintaining the same standard as 30 years ago - though - hours worked are longer (including part-time jobs) spouse/partner has joined and working full/part-time
An argument can be made that the economic expansion has accomodated these new worker and created jobs - however - each individual is worse off then 30-40 years ago

Debt is at the highest levels both consumers - corporate and government

Job security has disappeared

Not a pretty picture for the common folks - and things are going to get hotter for the politicos and corporate executives as labor feels the pain inflected by corporate/government/bankers mismanagement

Happy Labor Day to all -

Got gold?

Mr Greshammisetich#8413609/02/02; 09:24:39

I think that's the most I've seen you write in your own commentary! (more to follow? keep up the excellent news-gathering)

It's true -- families have gotten the shaft during the "productivity miracle". Two incomes, but one of them is chiseled away with the costs of commuting, clothing, lunches, daycare, taxes, and the final cost of latchkey kids. Her "take-home" hourly pay gets whittled down from $12 to a buck-fifty or so. Tired, too.

Our family manages by time-shifting our work hours, and living on the edge. No fat retirement accounts here -- just a kid with full parental attention (I think).

Where did the technology savings go? Some (1/3? probably less, though) maybe to the highest quintile of earners/profit getters. Most of it is wasted; friction in the system. Movement for the sake of GDP statistics growth.

It's a Hubbert's Peak of societal decline (mixed metaphors, badly, I know). But we've done used up all the extra margin in people's days. I wish they could do the math for themselves and pull back from the madness, but it'll probably take a good Depression to do it for them. And awhile further before they can adapt, and admit "Hey -- this was GOOD for us!"

PizzMr. Gresham#8413709/02/02; 10:13:50

Thanks for a great comment (which follows). It gave me another "where" and "why" and "how" for our next economic leg down.

Gresham: "It's true -- families have gotten the shaft during the "productivity miracle". Two incomes, but one of them is chiseled away with the costs of commuting, clothing, lunches, daycare, taxes, and the final cost of latchkey kids. Her "take-home" hourly pay gets whittled down from $12 to a buck-fifty or so. Tired, too."
Couldn't agree more.

My wife quit her $12.00 an hour job last December. 1/3 was going for taxes, 10% for clothes (probably 20%, since she doesn't keep me informed of cash expenditiures), 10% for wear & tear on a vehicle, 4% for gas and maintenance, 5% for lunches, and home maintenance was non-existant. We made the choice is wasn't worth it (without children).

I can't speak for other businesses, but these secondary jobs have been the first to go in our organization, and the households on the edge will definately get hurt (not on the edge will still have to cut back, and we can, but that will put the final spear into the economy), but as these jobs go away, your above list is probably one of the best fundamental "short sell" recommendations I have seen.

Commuting - Autos
clothing - retail
lunches - retaurants
taxes - dollar assets (paper)

Our race car economy has hit the wall, and for the past couple years we've been making frantic pit stops replacing fenders, spoilers, tires, etc. just to try and stay in the race. Before we're done the economy will probably be stripped down to the chasis, and decisions such as what CD or DVD do I buy (or rent) this week will be nothing more than memories.

Political nightmare as our standand of living tubes.


Mr GreshamPizz#8413809/02/02; 10:58:05

Amen, brother!

One of the comments I've retained from my Y2k forum days, when everyone was sharing their parents & grandparents' Depression reminiscences was the one: "We had everything in those days, except money."

I just finished Prechter's book, and it really put me in a mood of imagining a nationwide shortage of -- of all things! -- money. We really take the current liquidity for granted. When the herd turns, and credit faucets are shut off, well...

During that read, I think I realized (either from Prechter, or somewhere online) the Fed's limit on buying and monetizing debt. It is NOT the ability to do unlimited printing. And those little green papers ARE the Fed's liability, on paper. I'm not sure I can revive the picture I got, entirely, but let me grapple here.

The Fed & Treasury are in the banker/king alliance that the Bank of England developed in 1696(?), and it has worked to finance wars, and whatever the monarch wanted. Bankers got to "coin" the money the commoners had to use.

But in a pinch -- who cuts who loose? Is the Fed willing to go down with the USTreasury? (Because that deficit is sure heading rapidly the wrong directions, and the IRS is looking pretty anemic lately as a collection agency.)

Is the Fed just another collapsible "special purpose vehicle"? Or does it have a fallback position in some kind of re-org scenario? (Does it fancy itself somehow the REAL government?)

In the old infla/defla/lalal question, I don't see the Fed _printing_ a whole lot of new FRNs, but what FRNs are out there, "safe" in their holders' hands from bank closures, will flee toward gold as their redeemability in real US assets is called into question. (The Fed's balance sheet looking bad with flaky debt? Or just general stagnation?)

And the collapse of loan portfolios will cause an e-dollar retrenchment that will implode consumer spending.

I think green dollars will be closer to gold on the spectrum of safety than e-dollars are, but their holders will then wonder, "Why not go for the extra margin of safety? These are easily interchangeable."

Have I lost everyone here? I haven't done one of these commentaries in awhile, and I'm still trying to guesstimate the magnitude of some of these numbers, and their changes in relation to one another.

If the early 30s saw a money supply collapse of something like 30%, what could we be in for now, with so many more types of money, and in way more debt-challenged hands?

In the "hyrdraulics" of money supply imaginings, you could have the present money supply collapse by 50%, but if, previously, you had, say, only 3% of monetary value in gold (WAG of $1 trillion out of $30 trillion???), if people wanted to flee toward 30% of monetary value in gold (4.5 out of 15), you would have a rough quintupling of nominal price (300 to 1500), and 10x the purchasing power. Flight to quality, especially under contraction-induced default of so many other monetary bases.

Cavan ManMr. Gresham#8413909/02/02; 11:00:22

.......and a Dad who's a LOT smarter than the average bear.

Salutations and best wishes....CM

a nation of oneda fed#8414009/02/02; 11:27:04

The Federal Reserve was created by act of Congress. Ostensibly, it has the legal authority to create money, but it does not have to make good on that liability. For that, the U.S. government is responsible (in other words, the American taxpayer). The Fed is not an agency of the Federal government. Nor does the Federal government control its actions. The Federal Reserve exists solely for the purpose of making a profit for its shareholders, by means of engaging in activity which is, in reality, business. Its present chairman employs deceptive tactics both to obfuscate (muddy up) what is happening, and to deflect the public's attention toward what appear to be pertinent topics and facts, and away from relevant conditions.
mikalAu Lease Rates soaring?#8414109/02/02; 11:33:03

Can someone confirm the accuracy of Kitco's Au lease rates? If correct, the 1 mo., 2 mo., 3 mo., and 1 yr. contracts are up huge today. I will do a search for substantiation. Happy Labor Day
goldquestStill Silence From 9-11 Stock Speculation Probe#8414209/02/02; 11:38:17

How difficult can it be to determine who bought these puts? Perhaps they don't want to know.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Order direct for big savings and to avoid in-store hassles of time and travel#8414309/02/02; 12:06:20

ABCs of Au by MK

The ABCs of Gold Investing

"If you are looking for thorough guidelines for making good decisions about private gold ownership, The ABCs of Gold Investing has all the answers." --Money World Magazine

Please Remember: It is your purchase from USAGOLD - Centennial Precious Metals that nourishes these pages.

Mr GreshamCavan Man#8414409/02/02; 12:06:55

Thanks and I'll take that as my inspiration to quit poking 'round here on the 'Net and get on with my Daddish duties (the usual: painting, mowing, dishwashing, chaufeurring) and even catch up on some billing (called "earning a living" in some professions ;) I'm now in my "Fiat Respect Recovery" program, which means around this time of the month, I forget about gold and write checks for bills instead. I honestly didn't think The Game would go on for this long, but then, I always was the impatient and impetuous one...
Cavan ManOIL or WAT Files#8414509/02/02; 12:11:10

Monday, 2 September, 2002, 15:40 GMT 16:40 UK
Russia warns against Iraq attack

Ivanov: Iraq poses no threat to the US

Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov has warned that a US attack on Iraq could destabilise the Middle East.
"Any decision to use force against Iraq would not only complicate an Iraqi settlement but also undermine the situation in the Gulf and the Middle East," he said after talks with Iraqi Foreign Minister Naji Sabri.

Sabri's talks are part of a diplomatic offensive

Mr Sabri was meeting Mr Ivanov in Moscow as part of Baghdad's drive to thwart a possible US military strike.

Moscow has been a strong supporter of Washington's post-11 September "war on terror" but has close links to Iraq.

Russia could not see "a single well-founded argument that Iraq represents a threat to US national security", Mr Ivanov said.

Mr Ivanov said Moscow welcomed the continuation of talks between Iraq and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan which, he hoped, would result in the return of weapons inspectors and the lifting of international sanctions.

Iraq's deputy prime minister, Tareq Aziz, told journalists in Johannesburg that he would meet Mr Annan on Tuesday.

Iraq and Russia recently agreed to sign an economic co-operation deal worth up to $60bn.

It will include new projects as well as the modernisation of Soviet-built infrastructure in Iraq.

Washington has warned that Moscow's diplomatic standing could be eroded because of its relations with regimes such as that in Iraq.

'First step'

US Secretary of State Colin Powell has said that if Iraq allows UN inspectors back in to complete their assessment of its weapons industry, it will be a "first step".

The comment came after Vice-President Dick Cheney said there was no point in sending weapons inspectors back into Iraq and argued forcefully for military action.

Mr Powell said the US also needed to present evidence of its suspicions about the threat posed by Iraq to the international community so that an informed judgement could be made about possible military action.

Dr Mudhaffar Amin, the Iraqi representative in London, told the BBC on Monday that Iraq would welcome UN weapon inspectors but needed top work out an agenda for them.

"We really have to sit and work out the agenda for their work," he said.

Appeal to Bush Senior

America's statements on Iraq continue to attract international criticism.

Former President Nelson Mandela of South Africa said on Monday he was "appalled".

"What they are introducing is chaos in international affairs and we condemn that in the strongest terms," Mr Mandela said in Johannesburg.

"We are really appalled by any country whether it is a superpower or a poor country that goes outside the United Nations and attacks independent countries."

The former South African leader said he had contacted President George W Bush's father - George Bush Senior - and asked that he raise the matter with his son.

Cavan ManUSAGOLD84145#8414609/02/02; 12:12:43

Last message courtesy of BBC News.
Black BladeRe: mikal - London Interbank Gold Lending Rates #8414709/02/02; 12:51:58

(Swaps vs. U.S. Dollars, previous day's in brackets):


1 Month - 1.650 pc
2 Month - 1.600 pc
3 Month - 1.560 pc
6 Month - 1.355 pc
1 Year - 1.188 pc

Black Blade: Lease rates? Maybe this will help.

mikal@BlackBlade#8414809/02/02; 13:20:25

Thanks. A check at showed today's London Bullion Marketing Association (LBMA) GOFO (Gold Forward Offerred Rates) incorrectly quoted as being the LIBOR (London Interbank Offerred Rates) by Futuresource at your link. However, the page at your link shows Friday's rates in brackets alongside todays- with little or no increase! This is probably correct because Kitco's figures do not correspond at all with the LBMA quotes at their website. The GOFO rates Futuresource shows (without the correct attribution) are the Kitco rats normally. These are rates at which contributors (Market Making Members of LBMA) are prepared to lend gold on a swap against US dollars. Some of the uses of the GOFO in the market: To provide a basis for some finance and loan agreements and for the settlement of gold Interest Rate Swaps and Forward Rate Agreements. The "contributors" are: AIG International Ltd., The Bank of Nova Scotia- Scotia Mocatta, Barclays Bank Plc., Deutsche Bank AG, HSBC Bank USA London Branch, J Aron and Co (UK), JPMorgan Chase Bank, NM Rothschild & Sons Ltd, Societe Generale and UBS AG. Thanks again.
mikalRe: Lease Rates#8414909/02/02; 13:34:36

It would seem these rates are manipulated down by the large investment banks to facilitate the gold carry trade (leasing) and hedging in supplying gold needed in price suppression and shorting. So a small increase in rates from 1- 2% is no longer significant compared to the impending likelihood of a much greater day to day spike.
WaveriderBlack Blade, Mikal#8415009/02/02; 13:36:34

I'm looking at K. and see that there are two lease rates quoted. The first derived from market data, and the second by taking the difference between the Libor rate and the forward rate. Are you saying Mikal that these are normally consistent? If not, why the discrepency - why two? Also, what it the difference in use between the GOFO rates and the lease rates? TIA, Cheers,

mikal@Waverider#8415109/02/02; 14:24:05

I'll be glad to answer SOME of your good questions! I accessed the page you referred at the K site where they list the 3 different quotes for each of the periods from 1 mo. to 12 mo., unlike the home page containing only the Derived Lease Rates (LIBOR-GOFO). The LBMA is K's source, so K must be "consistent" to be credible. LBMA members(Market Making Members) determine the GOFO (Gold Forward Offered Rate) daily where a minimum of six members must daily submit their offer, the highest and lowest are thrown out and the mean average taken from the remaining offers. This is the GOFO (Forward) and is subtracted from LIBOR(London Interbank Offered Rate) to get the Derived or Lease(LIBOR-GOFO) rate. These 3 different rates are shown on your page and at LBMA daily. GOFO appears to be the benchmark to watch, though the derived rate must have a useful trading purpose.
mikal@Waverider#8415209/02/02; 14:35:34

Among the reasons to watch GOFO are the words I quoted from the LBMA earlier that GOFO "are the rates at which contributors are prepared to lend gold on a swap against US dollars". And "some of the uses of GOFO means in the market include providing a basis for some finance and loan agreements and for the settlement of gold Interest Rate Swaps and Forward Rate Agreements."
Ten BearsLabor Day#8415309/02/02; 15:14:16

Thanks to Mr. Gresham, Misetich, and Pizz for comments on Labor Day.
A few additional comments, based largely on information gained from this forum over the past few years:
It is worth noting that technology over the last 100 years has produced labor saving devices (both quantity & quality)unprecedented in recorded history. Yet for most Americans both parents have to work in order to support a family (up from 1 parent working 50 years ago). Logic would dictate that hours worked for sustenance should have decreased substantially over the last decades...the opposite has occurred.
A greater percentage of workers' wages is seized by various levels of government by taxation (necessitated in large part to pay interest on increasing amounts of government debt).
Over the last decades family debt has also increased and the associated interest payments consume additional purchasing power.
Also, the "hidden tax" of inflation (incorrectly reported by the CPI) eats away a substantial portion of purchasing power.
In the last two decades consideration of the concept of circular flow of income when formulating economic policy, has been discontinued. Income for workers created by production should be sufficient for them to purchase a substantial portion of that production.
Foreign produced goods (slave labor, in some cases) have
been imported without tariff. Labor and environmental cost differentials have been ignored.
American consumers (who no longer produce most of the goods they consume) have financed their consumption with increasing amounts of personal debt. IMHO The current situation does not appear sustainable.

BelgianCRUDE OIL#8415409/02/02; 15:20:39

The fundamental difference between the Western oil-consuming, economic powers and the oil-producing countries , (economically less developed) is that rising POO affects them both in an opposite way, without compensating effects. The Middle East and Russia (+/- 70% of global oil-reserves) do need, desperately, much higher oilprices, if they want to join our western prosperity. The west can't afford to pay more than 30$/35$ IN PRESENT DOLLARS, per barril or risks collapse.

The longer a high/higher POO remains...the more both parties (consumers/producers) experience the respective negative and positive aspects of such an elevated price.
The economic stronger west experiences faster currency depreciation and the holders of oil-reserves get a possibility to come economically closer to the west (dollar/euro-block included China).

When a M.E. war should be postponed for whatever excuse, the oil-reserve holders will build much stronger ties with each other and use the POO tool/weapon, more vigorously.
This plays into the "euro" cards and embarresses the dollar.
This as a possible explanation for Euroland and Russia's geopolitical stance and isolation of the US.

Calling off the Iraq attack (temporary), would immediately cut the 5$ war-premium (so called) off the POO and give cat and mouse some breathing time. They will play again somewhat later.

Breathing time for letting the bubbles unwind/deflate more orderly without disturbing crashes/shocks. Stockmarkets slipsliding slowly to 1990 levels, IRs, creaping up a bit and $/€ hoovering around parity. Recovery time is NO panic time.

What do you think Mister President Bush ?

WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8415509/02/02; 16:07:08

Hey...we get an Afternoon Gold Report today...thanks Black Blade for doing that on a holiday! :)

Thanks also Mikal - that's helped. I'll keep a closer eye on the GOFO rate although I think that the derived rate is generally referred to in discussions - yes? Cheers!


HoratioFrom Zimbabwe to Rome to U.S. its all the same#8415609/02/02; 16:41:20

The latest absurdity from this country(if I can call it that),first they kick out the white farmers from a country that used to export food.Then they put thier relatives and other political cronies in charge of the farms.Now they face famine,and what does the ?We send them free food of coarse,and what is thier responce?.Is it "thank you"?.
No ,the responce is "we don't want the food because it is genetically altered !"We only want your food that is naturally grown." I say let "natural selection take its coarse".
It kind of reminds me of a fellow standing on a street corner taking handouts.I saw someone offer him a hamburger,after which he quickly replied "Im a vegetarian",not wanting food ,but money. Same thing happined to me in Rome two years ago.My son-in -law and I were in a corner sub shop buying a few sandwiches.In comes a gypsy with hand stretched out begging for
money.My son-in-law offered her the sandwich he had just gotten from the clerk.She said to him "mangia tua".My son-law asked me "what did she say?"I said she just told you to eat
it yourself.
Ten years ago I owned a Donut shop and a fellow came in begging for something to eat.We also served soup'so I gave him a free bowl of soup and Italian bread with it.
Fifteen minutes later my employee came back to the office to tell me the fellow wanted to see me again.
My first thought was "what does he want now ,desert?.
No,what he wanted to know was ,would I give him $7.00 to buy bus tickets with so he woulden't have to walk.
Needless to say I showed him the door and told him not to let it hit him in the ass on the way out.

This modern world needs a depression just to get some peoples heads screwed on straight. IMHO Buy gold & silver ,its coming!

steady add to the bone pile#8415709/02/02; 17:12:57

Consolidated Freightways Corp., a 73-year-old trucking company, said Monday it was filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and laying off as many as 15,500 people around the country.
The company's stock had tumbled since it requested an extension in filing its second-quarter earnings two weeks ago and announced that it might be de-listed from the Nasdaq stock market.

In letters being mailed to workers Tuesday, the company said it simply didn't have enough money to continue operations.

``We expected that recent discussions with our banks, other lenders and real estate investors would enable us to obtain significant additional financial resources,'' the letters said. ``Unfortunately, this has not been the case.''

Hundreds of workers had shown up for work at Consolidated Freightways offices Monday, only to find the offices locked. In a recorded telephone message, Chief Executive John Brincko told them not to show up Tuesday.

MKTen Bears. . .In a New York Minute Everything Can Change#8415809/02/02; 17:43:01

Your observation is correct that taxes are the reason for the two worker household. I would also go so far as to say that inordinately high tax load (promulgated at nearly every level of our day to day existence) contributes mightily to the high rate of household debt as well. Of course, the high tax rates themselves are the result of burgeoning government debt at all levels and -- the great irony of our times. In other words, we go into debt because our government went into debt first. For most here, I see no need to elaborate on that observation. The failure of the economic system at this level is something "economists" on the left do not want to discuss because it undemines its "tax and spend" justification for existence. It is ignored on the right because it undermines its out-dated notion that high debt-to-savings ratios represent personal moral failure rather than one on the part of the institutions which govern us. As a result, neither side of the political equation has a real interest in, or justification for, solving the problem. On we go. . . .

At the root, the cause of the problem is the fiat money (credit) system itself -- a system some would say is the best option of a bad lot on this planet -- monetary debris resulting from The Fall. My view is that the system probably cannot be reformed given the lifestyle (and sense of security) for which the enormous debt load was established. Match that to the inability of either party institute the kinds of fundamental changes required to set things right and you have what appears to be unstoppable momentum toward a one-time, complete and cataclysmic failure.

I do not advocate organizing to change the system. I no longer think that is possible. There was a time I did, but no more. I might change when I see moral leadership rise in one of the political parties, or perhaps from a "third" alternative. In lieu of such leadership, I advocate changing how we structure our portfolios to weather the excesses the system has brought about. . . .and to survive. I am sorry to say I have more and more taken on an almost Fatalist (note the word Fatalist, not Defeatist) mentality -- wherein the best we can do is what we do for ourselves and our families. Start there and see what follows. . . . . . .

"The wolf is always at the door. . . . .
In a New York minute, everything can change. . . . . ." Don Henley

Gold for the portfolio; Wisdom for the Soul. . .Here at this Table Round. . . . .And Gandalf readies the Big, Month-long Birthday Bash starting with a Major Price Guessing Contest. . . . . . . .Onward, my friends. . ..

Ten BearsMK#8415909/02/02; 18:27:10

Thanks for the reply to my earlier post, and thank you for providing a civilized location where ideas may be exchanged.
Ten Bears

Cavan ManHello FOA and good show! Augusta should be kept pure as an OZ of AU.#8416009/02/02; 18:27:53

MK, I hope you will indulge this.

Dan O'Neill: Augusta is still The Masters of its domain
Dan O'Neill
Post-Dispatch Sports Columnist
08/31/2002 09:44 PM

You have to give Hootie Johnson and the 300 or so members of Augusta National Golf Club credit. They've got backbone.

In an age in which the politically correct card is accepted in more places than Visa, where a few headlines, a little public pressure and a hint of "discrimination" is enough to have it your way, Augusta and its Masters Tournament landed a blow for good ol' rationality.

Augusta National chairman Johnson announced on Friday the club has contacted its corporate sponsors of the Masters Tournament and officially issued them "Get Out of Jail Free" cards. Augusta will not be requiring their services for the 2003 tournament, which will be a tradition unlike any other, if for no other reason than it will be commercial free. The unprecedented pre-emptive strike by America's most romantic club was in response to more rumblings by Martha Burk and the National Council of Womens Organizations.

The NCWO has taken issue with the lack of women members at Augusta National, which was formed in 1932 and began conducting the Masters Tournament in 1934. Earlier this year, Burk sent Johnson a letter urging Augusta National to invite a woman aboard. Johnson studied that unsolicited piece of counseling for a spell before sending a return letter that basically urged the NCWO to stick it where the Azaleas don't bloom. Speculation was the NCWO would counter by putting pressure on corporate sponsors of the Masters, which includes Coca-Cola, IBM and Citigroup. Sure enough, Martha and her libertarians recently contacted at least one of those sponsors about this monumental indignation.

Officials at Coca-Cola characterized the NCWO's letter as non-threatening, but Augusta National doesn't give a Hoot. The club decided the best defense was a good offense. It wasn't waiting for threats, wasn't putting up with the nonsense. You want to bother the sponsors, fine, there won't be any sponsors. Case closed.

You see, it ain't easy being green, but it ain't destitute either. The cost of commercial air during the Masters, like everything at Augusta, is on a need-to-know basis. But estimates put each four-minute hourly segment in the neighborhood of $75,000, which is a swanky neighborhood. But when you have a procession of cash registers ringing like the bells of St. Mary's seven days each spring, you don't need the eggs. People line up for souvenirs at the Masters like they're lining up for youth serum. They buy for themselves, buy for their family, buy for their friends, buy for the buying. Not only is Augusta taking its corporate supporters off the hook, word is it will waive its rights fee to CBS and offset any losses the network might incur.

No doubt, many of us were prepared to stop drinking Coke until justice prevailed, until Augusta National set our people free by inviting a wealthy, influential, female golf-administrator type to be part of their wealthy, influential golf-administrative-type society. The incense was burning, Peter, Paul and Mary were on the stereo, and the "Put a Dame on Magnolia Lane" slogan was on the placard.

Instead, all we can do is sit back and watch all 14 or so hours of the 2003 Masters without commercial interruptions. Man, that NCWO really knows how to hone in on an important social issue and bring the heat. God forbid they lean on sponsors of "The Tonight Show."

Or, God forbid the NCWO find a cause that actually has some redeeming value for women and human kind. Augusta National is a conservative, unyielding place. It took these aristocrats 58 years to invite an African-American to the party. It may take them awhile longer to set a place for a woman.

But everything in life can't be legislated or enforced, and every organization with an ax to grind can't be accommodated. The only thing worse than Augusta National not having a female member is some goofy organization telling them that they must.

sectorIran says it won't stand idle if Iraq is attacked#8416109/02/02; 18:35:51

Mon Sep 2, 7:24 AM ET

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer

TEHRAN, Iran - Iran reiterated its opposition to a possible U.S. attack against Iraq, warning it will not stand idle in the face of new regional instability.

Foreign Ministry spokesman Hamid Reza Asefi told a news conference Monday that only the "Iraqi people, and not a world power, should determine Iraq's destiny."

"At the same time, Iran will not stand idle before such instability because if a country decides to overthrow another country's government, this will create a norm," Asefi said without elaborating.

Iran straddles the tense Middle East and Central Asian regions, sharing its western border with Iraq and eastern with Afghanistan ( news - web sites), the war-ravaged nation that U.S.-led forces struck following the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

Speculation has been mounting that America wants to broaden its war on terror to Iraq, a move that has so far won little international support.

All this regional and World opposition [See Caven Man's Russia post below] was easily predictable. So easy that one cannot escape the impression that it all has been a set-up by Bush and a few insiders on the Cabinet.

The true reason [Not revealed yet] for the war talk could be designed to sucker the opposition into an open display of disapproval. Then when the real reason ultimatly manifests itself, say…a known terrorist WMD attack on 9/11/02, then the tables will be turned [In the minds of the insiders on the Cabinet].

Such transparent, high-risk policy gambles and war preparations do little to engender respect for the Presidency or future support. Moreover, the frantic Administration arm-waving suggests that if GWB has no direct terrorist attack knowledge, then some sort of near-term economic "Crater Date" may be driving things.

One would do well to make financial

darkhorse@CM, your 84160#8416209/02/02; 18:41:50

What the devil does that piece have to do with anything here? You reached WAY out into left field for some wacky sort of subject title to mention gold for an article that has absolutely no place here! C'mon, you know better than that....
sector@CavenMan - Kevin Warrick and the 2003 Masters#8416309/02/02; 18:53:30

This 21 year old amateur is from my home town

He was in third place on Saturday at the US Open's Downpour Round - when the fairways were literally under 2 inches of water and the players had to drop in the rough to "Get relief". He finished low amateur.

Kevin practices at courses nearby. He is a first-class kid from the old school and he strikes the ball with wonderful purity. He will play with an invitation at the Masters.

Thank GOD Mr. Johnson took a stand against Politically Correct Gestapo. We shall see just how many NEW sponsors show up to stand with him and be counted.

There will be more than a few.

Cavan ManHey darkhorse#8416409/02/02; 18:54:26

1. If you had been paying attention, you would know that our missing "essayist" once implied in a fleeting remark that he was a member of the club.

2. If you had been paying attention, you would know that said "essayist" has been MIA for eight months.

3. If you were paying attention this evening, you might have seen thru my poor, feeble attempt to strike a note of commonality based upon #'s 1 & 2 above with the "essayist" therby hoping to elicit a response to the post you find so inappropriate.

4. If you personally knew our host, you would know that he is an avid golfer and a big advocate of "rationality" and common sense.

5. Who asked you anyway?

Cavan ManHi sector#8416509/02/02; 18:59:19

I plan to take the time tomorrow to write "Hootie" and thank him for striking a blow for the Constitution and Bill of Rights (am I stretching it too far) not to mention the fine traditions of the Masters. Regarding your theories on Iraq; I just don't know. It is truly amazing to see the action in the press knowing the stakes are incredibly high. I read Bill Bonner's two year old piece. "The Tipping Point" today. I think we are definitely near to a "tipping point" in this world. Have a great week...CM
darkhorseok...#8416609/02/02; 19:05:42

1. so?
2. and your point is...?
3. very poor attempt...
4. I'll bet he's got a lot of other interests too, but he wouldn't want anything about them posted here...
5. whatever...

Gandalf the WhiteMy FINAL suggestion to ALL "LURKERS" to COME ON IN !#8416709/02/02; 19:10:55

Come on "LURKERS", just "hit" the above LINK --- or hit the Link named "Discussion Forum Guidelines" at the top of the FORUM page and you will see the Forum Rules and Sign-up Form to register for POSTING capability.

The OFFICIAL "Birthday" of the USAGOLD Forum is defined as September 21st !

This MONTH long CELEBRATION is to recognize "The Fourth Birthday" for the USAGOLD Forum, and GOLDEN prizes are going to be given to skillful and fortunate posters. The first segment of the CELEBRATION, which will begin shortly after this LABOR DAY HOLIDAY, shall be the GOLD SETTLEMENT PRICE GUESSING CONTEST ! Please watch for information as soon as the Hobbits return to work !

The SECOND portion of this USAGOLD Forum CELEBRATION will be an essay Contest and shall begin shortly after the completion of the Price Guessing Contest !

As NUMEROUS examples of prior "Birthday Essay Contests", I submit the ARCHIVED submittals of a number of "Famous Forum Goldhearts" !

===First some "Rhymes"

The Scot (09/21/99; 21:06:22MDT - Msg ID:14098)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY! O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore...***

What has brought us to this celebration?
Is it chivalry, is it patriotism, or is it the quest?
What do we seek here? Is it knowledge, understanding,
or a desire to be best?
Ye, through all this time, I think it is all.
To sit at such a table is an honor, to have your chair, to hang your shield on the wall.
The assembly, that's it! We are united in the cause.
We are Knights and Ladies of the land.
Against all that threaten, we take a stand.
Though at times we might not agree,
we all choose this Ore to set us free.
We know the truth, for it is right.
The truth was revealed here this night.
Let us guard this sacred place,
around this old table of Grace.

Good night to all,
The Scot

=== and

Peter Asher (09/22/99; 01:07:30MDT - Msg ID:14105)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY "O" Mighty Oaken Table of Yore***
O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore,
Witness to enchanted lore,
Told by wondrous Knights of old,
Of quests renown by deeds so bold.

You've become our Forum standard,
"Knights of Gold" our host commanded.
Drawn by history's shining moments,
Now we stand as Gold's proponents.

First a band, a loyal few,
Inspired ranks which swiftly grew
Into this group we see tonight,
Linked by bonds of truth wove tight.

The young, the old;
The slow, the witty;
Country folk and some of city.
Wise men from across the sea,
Perhaps a Sheik of Araby.

Questing for a realm of knowledge
Far beyond the scope of college,
With passionate informed debate,
This lustrous Gold we venerate.

Gather round this massive table,
Raise your glasses as your able.
Congregate to celebrate,
This Golden Forum's birthing date.

Aragorn and Aristotle,
Open now an aged bottle.
Northy, how ‘bout you and Crier
Light us up a roaring fire.

ET, Scottie, Michael, Koan;
Tell us where the next years goin'
Gandalf, wizard of us all,
What's inside your crystal ball?

Leigh and Tomcat, tell us stories,
Tales of monetary glories.
PH shall we now regal
In Y2K by AEL?

FOA you're as a brother
With your distant friend Another.
Caven, tell us where you've gone
Can you find him Megatron.
Canamami, have a look,
Otherwise just ask Canuck

Beesting, Stranger,also ORO,
Tell us how we'll feel tomorrow
Crossroads, Steve and Golden Truth,
Sit by us and give us sooth.

Oh yes, Richard, when we sup,
I'd like to sit with Buttercup.
Then when all is said and done,
Let's have a toast by el St. One.

"When from this castle far you Roam;
O'er towering peaks or seas of foam.
If for your friends you have a yen,
Just go online — your home again."

Cavan Mansector, this is interesting...#8416809/02/02; 19:29:08

Top Financial News

09/02 20:21
Japan's Ishihara Says Tokyo May Shift Some Deposits to Citibank
By Yoshiko Matsushita

Tokyo, Sept. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Tokyo's government, concerned over Japan's wobbly banks, may shift some of its 1.7 trillion yen ($14.4 billion) in deposits from Mizuho Holdings Inc. and other Japanese lenders to foreign rivals such as Citigroup Inc.

``If the conditions are good, we'd do businesses with anybody including foreign banks,'' Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara said in an interview. ``Citibank has the best record here in Japan, so it could be one of the candidates.''

Tokyo conducted assessments of deposit data, capital levels and credit ratings at Mizuho and 14 other lenders. The city, which earlier said it may close accounts or stop making new deposits at banks it deemed riskiest, hasn't released details of the reviews.

Tokyo and other local governments are seeking to ensure the safety of taxpayer money as Japan plans to remove unlimited protection from most types of deposits starting April 1. A fall in deposits would make it harder for Japan's lenders, struggling with 52.4 trillion yen in bad loans, to return to profit.

``We're responsible for public money, taxpayers' money, and we can't just let it go up in smoke,'' Ishihara said, leaning back in a white armchair in a Tokyo Metropolitan office. Citibank's ``interest rates are more than 10 times those of banks here.''

Following computer breakdowns in April at Mizuho that resulted in double-charging of 60,000 customer accounts and as many as 2.5 million delays of money transfers, Tokyo shifted 300 billion yen of deposits from the world's largest lender, where it was the biggest depositor, to buy Japanese government bonds, Ishihara said.

Tokyo may allocate more funds to bonds, including central and local government securities as well as corporate bonds, the governor said. Bond holdings, which account for about 20 percent of Tokyo's total public funds, may rise to as much as 50 percent, the city government said last month.

Mizuho's Homework

Apart from the assessments of lenders, Tokyo carried out an in-depth inspection on Mizuho separate from the checks the Financial Services Agency conducted after the April computer glitches, Ishihara said. The inspection found more problems than the FSA discovered, he said, without elaborating.

Ishihara said Tokyo may pull out more money or take other measures if it isn't satisfied with reports Mizuho, formed from the merger of Fuji Bank Ltd., Dai-Ichi Kangyo Bank Ltd. and Industrial Bank of Japan Ltd., is scheduled to submit to Tokyo.

``I've given them two homework assignments; one due in October and the other in March,'' Ishihara said. ``If they don't make us happy, we'll have to take some actions.''

Mizuho, which handles the city's payroll and processes tax payments, on Aug. 23 said it would pay the Tokyo government 16.9 million yen to cover costs incurred as a result of the computer breakdowns.

``Too Lenient''

Ishihara also attacked the FSA, saying its inspections and subsequent actions on Mizuho were inadequate and ``too lenient.''

``The worst part of all this is the FSA is hiding things so they don't lose face,'' Ishihara said. ``Until we stepped in, the FSA hadn't really done anything. They haven't grasped what's really going on.''

The FSA in June said Mizuho gave it inaccurate information about the progress of its tie-up before April 1. It ordered the bank to make reports every three months to ensure there are no more breakdowns.

``Japan's government -- the FSA -- has no grand design on how to revive the nation's financial system,'' Ishihara said. ``The FSA is being reactive, not proactive, and by doing this, the wound just gets deeper and deeper.''

Ishihara said bureaucrats at the FSA have told him Mizuho's situation is so bad it may not be viable much longer. They have no plan for action, though, and say they don't want to deal with a crisis when they're in charge.

Bank Tax

In addition to calling Mizuho on the carpet, the governor has been trying to squeeze more money out of lenders that operate in Tokyo. He said he'll continue to fight for a tax on banks that has been the subject of a court battle because the city needs the revenue.

``We cannot rely on the central government (for all funding), and we never know what's going to happen in a trial,'' he said

Tokyo is requiring banks to pay taxes based on their assets, not net income, forcing even money-losing banks to contribute. In March, the Tokyo District Court ordered the city to repay 74.2 billion yen to Mizuho and other Japanese banks, saying the tax was unfair. The court did not revoke the law, and Ishihara said the city would appeal.

Still, the governor said he may be pushing too hard on Mizuho and the other banks.

``I'm also a politician. It would be troublesome if Japan goes into a financial panic because Tokyo has triggered it.''

Gandalf the White"MORE" ARCHIVED Birthday Essay Contest examples <;-)#8416909/02/02; 19:33:37

Goldspoon (09/22/99; 03:28:00MDT - Msg ID:14110)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY "O" Mighty Oaken Table of Yore***

What stellar company you are... The quality of posts at this round table makes one humble.. When i started to first read and then post at this fine Oaken table i had only a hint of the members gathered here... The faces were in shadows hidden by your guilded armored helmets. As my eyes became adjusted to the golden glow here and my ears adjusted to the softspoken words of encouragement and of golden truth, i realized that i was in the company of bravehearts. Hearts tempered by battle and minds of refined wisdom..Unselfish souls willing to share the timeless knowledge of the true Golden Ages. A time stolen from us that i did not even know was missing.... i soon learned that even i had something to add (meeger as it may be) to this Golden Quest, almost as if i were drawn here of purpose... Excuse me for some of my past posts dear Knights of the Round Table... for i did not then realize how tall the trees in this forest were... nor how firmly rooted their convictions, nay even of the rich soil of truth and justice from which they feed.....makes one feel small... but proud of one's place....As the ages roll.. and birthdays pass...Hear!..Hear! and raise your glass!..To one and all who gather here and to every braveheart that endures..remember what every Gold Smith knows.. that the more Gold is hammered, streched and stressed.. the more that admoration for the metal grows... Like you, dear friends who gather round here..Kings, Knights, Wizards, and Grand Ladies alike..a toast!!...a toast to Freeeeedom, Justice, and the soon return of Gold as Money for All!!.....
==== AND

Black Blade (9/22/99; 11:15:33MDT - Msg ID:14123)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY! O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore...***

I, Sir Black Blade having just returned from the far reaches in search of the valued metal "GOLD", a worthy crusade indeed, find myself on a narrow forested and fogged path. I emerge from the mist and I see the magnificent virtual castle of USAGOLD. I approach cautiously having been away for some time and only able to receive precious little news from the Forum while in the wilderness. I see that all is quiet and I wonder, where is everyone? Is this a trap? I draw the Black Blade from it's sheaf and move slowly toward the drawbridge. I notice that the bridge is lowered and the feeling of danger grows. I see a sudden movement and I prepare to fight. Then I recognize a tall cloaked figure. I'm relieved, I see the Town Crier, our guardian of the gate. He beckons me forth and proudly announces that the festivities have begun. I replace the Black Blade into it's sheaf and proceed toward the Great Hall.

I come toward the huge oak doors and they open as if by some magical power. Behold, the Round Table with many guests, some known to me and others whom I have not yet met. At the head of the table is his royal highness MK, King of this virtual realm, his royal counselors FOA and Another raising their golden chalices toasting good fortune to all. Off to the side I see the royal economists Stranger and Farfel debating stagflation and preparing to grab lances for another jousting contest. If this continues much longer I should think they will use maces and battle axes next. Meanwhile ORO scratches his head in amazement and the royal Lady of the Court Leigh admonishes the two of them for being so rambunctious. I tell our Lady not to worry, boys will be boys. She gives me that downcast look and I realize that I should hold my tongue around this fair maiden. I take a seat at the table and fill my goblet. I look across the table and see Sir Koan and Sir Phos drinking from Silver Goblets all the while Sir Koan is explaining to all who will listen about how to tell a dog from a bear. In the glow of the fire I see a new face, who can that be? He drinks from a platinum chalice. Why I believe that be Sir Goldspoon. There is laughter off to my right and I see Sirs WAC, PH, Asher, Gandolf, Canuck, North of 49, and Canamami. I am curious of course, so I approach. Of course, they are observing Tom Fumich our beloved Court Jester performing his usual (and unusual) antics. I cross the hall to the other side of the Round Table. I see Sirs SteveH, Aragorn III, Scott, Cavan Man and Beesting surrounded by dark smoke, standing around a blackened cauldron near the fireplace engaged in strange and wonderful experiments of alchemy. I wonder if Sirs SteveH and Aragorn III are really wizards or sorcerers. I also hear Sir ET warning of Y2K over all the merriment. I see a ghostly figure in the background whispering into King MK's ear. I believe that must be the elusive Sir Holtzman who has come by for a rare visit. I know that there is a seat reserved for this learned knight, however, he has yet to take his rightful place at this forum. I see many new knights as well as old friends entering the Great Hall. I move back to my seat, grab my goblet, and taste the sweet nectar. I relax and smile because before I go on my next crusade for the noble metal in a distant land, I share some time with friends, fellow Knights and Ladies ……….
For now I'm home.

Gandalf the WhiteDEEP entries from the ARCHIVE in "The Birthday Essay Contest" !#8417009/02/02; 19:59:25

Aristotle (09/22/99; 23:05:30MDT - Msg ID:14167)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY! O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore...***
MK suggested that we embark upon a spirited bout of one-upmanship for offering "the most gracious, acceptable and believable compliment of this FORUM...the Table Round -- this meeting place that has become an important addition to our lives" as a one-year birthday tribute.

One year old? My dear FORUM, you have surely been lied to about your year of birth, for you are surely much older than that. You overflow with wisdoms and the richness of grace that only age can provide. No, your life began much earlier in time than September of 1998, for you sprang to life as we knights and ladies each drew OUR first breath and embarked on lifelong quests to gather unbidden, to build, to manifest this noblest of human endeavors as a Table Round--to strive for the key to unlock the full potential of mankind that currently lies hidden in a cloud of confusion. I have prepared a verse that I offer on this occasion which I feel defines our prevailing view:

The treasures of life will remain locked away
until we control our greed;
Our folly it seems is hoarding Gold as the prize
when Gold must be USED as the key.

This noble Forum need not employ an agent (sorry MK) to fish for compliments on its behalf. I say this because this Round Table takes on its form from one compliment after another in the form of the valuable thoughts that each person chooses of their free will to put on open display for the incremental enrichment of mankind. We post, too, for yet another reason. To provide ourselves with a glimmer of hope, like a castaway on a small island at sea who commits a message in a bottle to the endless waves as a small plea to anyone "out there" who might find it and somehow make a difference while we are powerless to do so. And if the currents be against us and the bottle be not found for an age, at least it will one day be known by someone that there once was a forlorn soul who's life nonetheless burned as bright as ever has under the sun.

"Why do we read, if not post?" In a comment I attribute to C.S. Lewis..."To know we're not alone." Nobody gathered here does so for the purpose of making money. Oh, sure, we might justify to ourselves and our inquiring friends and families that that IS the reason, be deep down we know it is not. All the money we have and need we continue to earn in our daily honest endeavors. But we have the nagging suspicion that all is not right, that something is amiss with this money we've honestly earned. We gather here to learn why we feel as we do, and to confirm that we are not playing the part of the fool while the rest of the world walks the higher road in a State of Grace. No, as we gain confidence from one another to raise our eyes and allow ourselves to see clearly, and to allow ourselves to follow our own conscience regarding the direction of our own lives, we realize that things are not as they once seemed. It is we that are traveling the higher road, and immune to the scorn cast about by the masses who are to frightened to leave the herd as we have done.

An unknown author once answered his own question "What surprises you most about mankind?"
"That they get bored of being children, are in a rush to grow up, and then long to be children again. That they lose their health to make money, and then lose their money to restore their health. That by thinking anxiously about the future, they forget the present, such that they live neither for the present nor the future. That they live as if they will never die, and they die as if they had never lived."

Such is the Round Table "embodied" of compliments, and therefore in need of no blatant expression of same. "We gather here." That says enough when you consider who exactly "we" are. Some of us will never know the extent of who is who. It matters not. Know thyself, and you'll know that your own presence here is worth the riches of kings, and as a complement to the group, the compliment is expressed. We gather here to live our lives better, and with hope of being that helpful BEACON to any others lost in the night. That says it all, my dear friends.

WE gather HERE.

Tomcat (09/23/99; 19:24:14MDT - Msg ID:14227)
***HAPPY BIRTHDAY! O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore...***

I would to take this birthday to toast the knights of this table by telling a short story.

My eleven year old son, Eric, and I have often gone panning for gold but have come home empty handed. My son kept urging me on and recently we bought some new equipment. With our dreams rehabilitated we trudged back into the mountains for another try.

We worked an area called Bedrock Creek for quite awhile. Late in the day, just as my spirits started to sag, I heard a squeal of delight from my son and, as I looked up, I saw him running to me, sluice in hand, pointing to his discovery.

"Dad", he said, "We've struck gold!"

There, glittering in the Colorado sun, lay a our first piece of the noble metal.

While driving home, Eric held his sluice in his lap, talking non-stop about the next day and all it would bring. During these moments I thought about all the physical gold I had stored at home and how this paled in comparison to our discovery of one little piece of gold.

One little piece. One that meant so much.

I thought about the important of that one little peice. Slowly I began realize that gold without dreams is no longer gold. Gold gets its power by being a connecting point to the real things of value: to our hopes, our dreams, to the essence of life itself, to the reasons we live and die.

It was then that I realized how important my fellow knights were to me and I saw the value of our round-table and our bond to one another. I saw at last that our table is like gold itself; a connecting point to our hopes, our dreams, to the essence of life itself, to the reasons we live and die.

sector@CavenMan - The Japanese Government Funds Shift to CiitiBank...#8417109/02/02; 20:03:18 consistent with

...a mutual yen/dollar/euro devaluation [against gold] scheme.


Tonight's Cafe suggests that some new, BIG, long gold hedge funds are operating under the assumption of a big September event that will surge the price of gold. [Bill Murphy continues to offer the best advise anywhere]

This is the only logical explanation for the President's abstruse war policy moves. Since he has no visible support for an invasion, the "Event" referred to must be something else. A known WMD terrorist attack, massive devaluation in response to a gold cartel capitulation or something of that magnitude fits the bill.

This just about the cleanest investment warning signal that one gets.

(1) Actual Administration actions in preparation for an internally and externally unjustified war whose thinly veiled objective is actually the possession of another nation's crude oil reserves because our decade-long false economy is about to fail.

(2) Actual Administration warnings [Cafe sources] to insiders about a very bad DOW and economic future.

(3) Reports of large funds going long gold in advance of a rumored September event.

Don't come crying when gold tops $500 on the way to the stratosphere.

There will not BE entry points AFTER the balloon goes up because ALL the available cheap metal will be acquired in an instant. This remarkable fact of currency crises is not speculation but routine consequenses according to experts in the field [M. Obsfedt, UC Berkeley].

MKGandalf#8417209/02/02; 20:12:37

It is good to remind us from whence we came. . .

All: Can anyone tell me of another financial Forum this successful, this important, this focused? It is the standard -- this Table -- to which all others hew and for this I am grateful to those seated here. We have blazed the trail which all others follow. The one that is read, quoted and honored wherever gold folk congregate. You have made this Forum what it is. As a well-known and highly regarded poster once said: "We watch this new gold market together, yes?" Ever changing. Always new. Never losing its luster. Like gold itself. That's what makes this Table what it is.

Black BladeIndicators Look "Grim"#8417309/02/02; 20:50:08

The US market index futures are pointing to a negative open. The grains are sharply higher on withering crops and dwindling supply after 2 to 3 years of drought and seed stockpiles are being drawn upon. The USD is starting to come under pressure tonight. Petroleum prices are coming off the recent highs, though word from OPEC member Venezuela is that production will not be increased as this month's OPEC meeting in Osaka, Japan (although Saudi deny's it). Meanwhile Gold awaits direction from New York markets, currency markets, and economic data. After a 3 day holiday when investors and institutional people are coming off vacations amid "grim" prospects - tomorrow could be "entertaining".

- Black Blade

WaveriderMK#8417409/02/02; 20:55:30

Thank you for the opportunity to participate here and for your leadership in making this forum what it is. I thoroughly agree with you -


I have my party hat and dancing shoes on and look forward to the month of Birthday Celebrations! BTW - I've had a number of compliments on the beautiful French Angel (which I wear around my neck) and everytime someone comments on it I give attribution to could kind of consider me a real-time advertisement!! It's forcing me to sharpen my knowledge of economics and Gold "...just what *was* the essay contest topic?....and what *is* the future role of Gold?" Cheers,

WaveriderMK#8417509/02/02; 20:57:53

Of course that's USAGOLD *AND* CPM. :)
DOWNUNDER@ BELGIAN - - RE ED STEER LINK " (War) Drums Keep Pounding Rhythm To My Brain"#8417609/02/02; 21:05:04

Thanks for the feed back on this great article. No I haven't
heard of Peter Warburton (British Economist) before --nor had I read his article at the archives of G.E. However I followed the link from above article to:

"The debasement of world currency: it is inflation,but not as we know it". A very worth while read but one thing puzzles me.At the btm it's signed off by "David W. Tice & Associates" ??? did you notice that --If so any idea on what was going on here? TIA

Black BladeCrisis At Citi#8417709/02/02; 21:05:52


Weill, who turns 70 in March, is a risk-averse manager who despises surprises. But for months now, he's been blindsided by one mishap after another. A platoon of state and federal investigators is homing in on the question of Citigroup's complicity in each of the defining business catastrophes of this post-bubble era: the fall of Enron Corp. and the great telecom meltdown. In South America, Weill is trying to stanch loan losses in Argentina that already have topped $1 billion while paring the bank's exposure to Brazil's shaky economy. Even Citi's consumer-lending operation, which generates half of its earnings, is afflicted by rising credit-card charge-offs and by conflicts with regulators over its marketing of loans to consumers with bad credit ratings.

The most pressing of these problems are the scandals rocking Wall Street. It's starting to look as though the very model of the financial conglomerate is fundamentally flawed. Sprawling institutions such as Citi, J.P. Morgan Chase, Merrill Lynch, and others are riddled with conflicts of interest, compounded by abuses by aggressive bankers. Consider how banks and brokers have used loans as loss leaders to win lucrative investment-banking assignments or how they have cobbled together dubious structured-finance deals that have helped corporate clients mask their true condition. Or how research analysts at some firms have hyped the stocks of banking clients to investors even as they disparaged them in private e-mails. In the latest revelation, Citi's Salomon Smith Barney (SSB) investment-banking subsidiary gave telecom CEOs preferential access to shares of hot initial public offerings that could be flipped in hours or days at great profit. All of these schemes were designed to lock in fees at the expense of smaller shareholders who, in many cases, were stuck holding worthless securities.

Black Blade: There is still the rumor that Citigroup's Rubin will be subpoenaed to appear before congress to testify about his involvement with Enron. Still it appears that Citigroup may avoid some losses as the IMF loans to the crumbling South American economies will instead go to cover the bank's losses. Citi is also one of the major banks with huge derivative exposure that could severely cripple the bank. It is also a major backer of subprime loans and supplier of problem credit cards to those of questionable credit worthiness. It should get "interesting".

Black BladeAsian Markets Are Happy#8417809/02/02; 21:13:01

Asian markets are tanking again. Japan's Nikkei 225 could easily go sub 9,000 at this rate. The rumor is that another major Japanese bank is in deep trouble and will require a government bailout (still awaiting details or confirmation on this). In other news, Japan has ordered the shutdown of 5 nuclear power plants due to structural problems and maintenance concerns. Nuclear power provides 22% of the country's electricity. A minor energy crisis could be developing.

- Black Blade

Black BladeAl Qaeda Gold Moved to Sudan - Iran, U.A.E. Used as Transit Points #8417909/02/02; 21:36:50


Financial officers of al Qaeda and the Taliban have quietly shipped large quantities of gold out of Pakistan to Sudan in recent weeks, transiting through the United Arab Emirates and Iran, according to European, Pakistani and U.S. investigators. The sources said several shipments of boxes of gold, usually disguised as other products, were taken by small boat from the Pakistani port of Karachi to either Iran or Dubai, and from there mixed with other goods and flown by chartered airplanes to Khartoum, the Sudanese capital. Gold has long been a favorite way of storing wealth in Southeast Asia, the Arabian peninsula and northern Africa. Smuggling gold by sea from Karachi into Iran and Dubai is also a centuries-old activity.

Black Blade: Another good lesson why Gold should be in every ones portfolio. The anonymous and easily transportable wealth preservation vehicle of precious metals is desirable for any freedom loving people to hide from the authoritarian eyes of abusive governments. Governments can seize and freeze assets (if they know about them), yet it is in the best interests of all to stash away some wealth into easily hidden assets. This is a lesson for the Arabs who are heavily invested in the U.S. now that a lawsuit threatens to take their wealth, not to mention the recent Rand report for the Pentagon claiming the Saudis are enemies of the United States. The US has seized foreign assets before (ie Iran, Iraq, Panama, etc.).

The Invisible Handlink between monetary devaluation and military attack#8418009/02/02; 21:42:02


You said:
This is the only logical explanation for the President's abstruse war policy moves. Since he has no visible support for an invasion, the "Event" referred to must be something else. A known WMD terrorist attack, massive devaluation in response to a gold cartel capitulation or something of that magnitude fits the bill.

I understand the link between an attack on the US of A and an attack by the US of A. But what's the link between a monetary devaluation and a military attack?

Black BladeNikkei tumbles to 18-year low#8418109/02/02; 21:57:51{DB6619F9-6D64-476D-9748-E8CA5BD51666}&siteid=yhoo


TOKYO (CBS.MW) - Tokyo's leading Nikkei Average sank to an 18-year intraday low by midday Tuesday. Nagging concerns over banks and the general corporate business outlook triggered selling in both the financial and technology sectors. The Nikkei fell 159.10 points, or 1.7 percent, to end the morning session at 9,362.53 - a level last seen in December 1983 on an intraday basis. Extending losses into a sixth straight session, the Nikkei now stands about 9 percent lower than at the start of the year. Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa said although he is closely monitoring stock prices, he has no specific policies to boost the market. "I think stocks are being affected by those of the U.S. The drop in stock prices are proceeding globally," he said. "It is difficult for us to take steps aimed at Japanese stock prices aggressively in such an environment."

Black Blade: Japanese banks also include their stock holdings as part of their net worth. As the stock index crashes, so does the value of the Japanese banks. Add on top of all that, the banks are insolvent and are holding bad outstanding loans on the books that will never ever be paid back. It is no wonder that the Japanese government is no longer going to guarantee bank deposits come April Fools Day. I expect to see a renewed "Japanese Gold Rush" as that date approaches. "Interesting Times"

BlackjackWorld's Biggest Bank falls 7% in Tokyo#8418209/02/02; 22:00:25

Mizuho, the world's largest bank, slid 7.2 percent to 231,000 yen. It was the most active stock by value, with 9.5 billion yen in shares changing hands.

Banks were the second-biggest decliners on the Topix, on concern that the Tokyo government may shift its fund out of the local banks after it conducted assessments of deposit data, capital levels and credit ratings at Mizuho and 14 other lenders.

The city, which earlier said it may close accounts or stop making new deposits at banks it deemed riskiest, hasn't released details of the reviews.

``If the conditions are good, we'd do businesses with anybody including foreign banks,'' Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara said in an interview. ``Citibank has the best record here in Japan, so it could be one of the candidates.''

UFJ Holdings Inc., Japan's No. 4 lender by assets, dropped 4.2 percent to 252,000 yen. Mitsubishi Tokyo Financial Group Inc., the world's No. 5 lender, shed 2.8 percent to 773,000 yen. Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp., the world's fourth-largest, declined 3.2 percent to 585 yen.
I thought 9,500 on Nikkei was the trigger for default.
Watching this unfold is amazing. The Japanese government
doesn't trust Mizuho? Going from Mizuho to Citi is like jumping
out of the frying pan into the fire!

WaveriderNIKKEI 225 Index #8418309/02/02; 22:16:37^N225&d=c&t=1d&l=on&z=b&q=l

Real time ...not a pretty sight!
BlackjackUS West Coast ports brace for Union slowdown/strike#8418409/02/02; 23:18:25

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - U.S. West Coast ports braced for a possible labor slowdown this week after the union representing thousands of longshore workers walked out of contract talks with port employers.

Union leaders were not available for comment on Monday, which was the Labor Day holiday.

But port employers warned the breakdown of contract negotiations in San Francisco on Monday could mean work slowdowns in ports that handle $300 billion worth of goods each year, or more than half of all U.S. trade.

"The union just fired the first shot," Joseph Miniace, president of the Pacific Maritime Association, which represents port employers in their talks with the International Longshore and Warehouse Union.

"They opened the door to work slowdowns, which we have said time and again will not be tolerated."

Union officials have said no decisions on possible work slowdowns or other moves were expected before Tuesday, when negotiators return from Labor Day rallies.

Union leaders allowed the temporary contract to expire at 5 p.m. on Sunday after talks foundered on the issue of new technology for the ports -- innovations employers say are necessary to keep ports competitive but that union leaders fear may cost union jobs.

Longshore workers with the ILWU -- one of the nation's most powerful and best-paid unions -- have been working on day-to-day contracts since July 1, when their last contract expired.

The negotiations cover some of the country's most important ports, including Los Angeles, Oakland and Seattle, and economic analysts have said big disruptions in port traffic could have serious effects for the struggling U.S. economy.
This would be the nail in the coffin of any US economic recovery.
When it rains it pours.

goldquestThe "Event"#841859/3/02; 00:23:14

in September might not have anything to do with invading Iraq. The U S has been turning out the new colored money, for some time. It would not surprise me to see a world wide recall of all greenbacks, to be exchanged for the new money. Illegal and counterfeit money will be impossible to turn in. There will be a time limit to exchange the old money for the new. The new money will be partially backed by gold, also. Just my HO.
goldquestNew Money#841869/3/02; 00:39:26

Coming soon!
GaleriderJAPAN#841879/3/02; 00:40:03

To All,
Will try to get a read from my neighbors with regards to the markets over here. Not a pretty sight from my end. Got my Krugs and pre-1933's. Any insights on taking a futures contract out and a read on when?

Belgian@ Downunder#841889/3/02; 00:57:28

Peter Warburton : "The debasement of World currency" and author of "Debt and Delusion", simply found the right echo at the right moment by D. Tice. Rothshild's Reuters, decides, *when*, *what*, should come to the general public.
Correct Timing of the appropiate message ! That's what these media tools are for, isn't it.

We must certainly NOT forget that 98% of the general public isn't aware "at all" about the gravity of all the underlying rots ! They never were in the past and will never have the time to investigate any deeper on what they might suspect. Therefore a certain press with doomish undertones is automatically sidelined into some very small boxes. Freedom of speech is theoretically OK for as long as your audience remains very limited. That's why most "authorities" have to use such an extreme cautious language, when pointing to, what's going wrong. Sir Allan as the best example of cryptic talk.

Tell the TERRIBLE "truth" in all its naked uglyness...and nobody believes you ! Fantasize and dream on...and you gather masses. Who's ever questioning the essence of his purchasing digits ? Debasement or depreciation of its currency are difficult to grasp notions. BUT an exploding POG, will make this suddenly, VERY clear and instantly understandable for everyone. That's why we patiently wait for that big/biggest GOLD - POG - GAPPING, of all times.
The psychological effect on the general public, will have a tremendous impact. This after more than 20 years of Gold "conditioning". We never paid enough attention to the extend of Gold's enormous psychological impact on all men and women in the street ! The financial fraternity, knows this very well. War-dramas (atrocities) are perfectly hidden these days but an exploding POG is a naked fact that can't be hidden for the globe as a whole. Impossible to relativate an exploding POG. No need to influence people's perceptions in case of such event. etc...etc...

BlackjackComplete decadence and corruption of Saudi Royals!#841899/3/02; 00:59:03

MADRID - The extravagant vacations of Saudi King Fahd and his royal retinue in Spain are disproportionate for a country suffering severe political and social problems.

The 81-year-old king of Saudi Arabia, Fahd bin Abdul Aziz Al- Saud, accompanied by nearly all of his children and family members and an entourage of more than 3,000, has been vacationing on Spain's Costa del Sol since August 14.

In the posh Mediterranean resort town of Marbella, 450 kilometers southeast of Madrid, he stays in his palace, a replica of the White House named "Mar Mar". Just the preparations of the palace for his visit ran to US$185 million. Luxury villas and 300 rooms in five-star hotels were rented for the rest of the royal family in and around Marbella.

Chic restaurants and jewelry shops have cheerfully prepared for the Saudi visitors, who spent $90 million on their last stay, in 1999. During this year's visit, which is to be one month longer than the last one, they are expected to spend as much as $300 million.
Although a boon for Spain's tourist industry, that sum indicates the Saudi leaders' lack of concern for their own people.

Emma Bonino, an Italian member of the European Parliament, said the royal family has more than $600 billion in funds abroad, and is "more interested in investing them on the international markets than at home".

Saudi Arabia ranked 71st out of 173 nations on the United Nations Development Program's (UNDP) latest Human Development Index, which measures factors like life expectancy, school enrollment and distribution of wealth. Ahead of Saudi Arabia are nations like Thailand, Venezuela, Colombia and Slovenia.

Per capita income in Saudi Arabia plunged from $35,000 to $7,000 in just 20 years, while the country's gross national product grew just 1 percent a year on average during the same period. At the same time, its 3.8 percent demographic growth rate is one of the highest in the world.

Meanwhile, discriminatory policies remain in place, such as those that keep the princes and their families separate from the rest of the population, and especially from the immigrants, who keep the economy running, not to mention the discrimination against women.

Evidence of that was experienced by Bonino herself when she visited Saudi Arabia as part of a delegation sent by the European Parliament's commission of foreign affairs.
When they were received by the chair of the Saudi parliament, Salih bin Abdullah bin Humaid, the women deputies were "denied the honor of a handshake or eye-to-eye contact", said Bonino, while explanations that Islam considers women to be different from men were addressed to the male deputy guests.

Several Spanish media outlets reported that a British agency has provided a large group of women to accompany the Saudi men during their vacations in Spain, on two conditions: the women must be young and blonde, and must be replaced every 15 days.

Although prostitution is legal in Spain, procuring is punishable by law. Nevertheless, no authority or organization has moved against the British agency, even though the contract was made public.

Nor has the illegal hiring of around 50 active-service police officers to moonlight as bodyguards for the Saudi king, princes and princesses been questioned. The arrangement has been reported by several media outlets, with no reaction from the government.
On the contrary, King Fahd has been given a royal welcome and was visited in Mar Mar by King Juan Carlos, although according to protocol, the Spanish sovereign should have received the visiting monarch.

Fahd will also receive visits from Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar and US Secretary of State Colin Powell. The Saudi monarch and Powell are expected to discuss present or future US actions against Iraq, a touchy subject on which the two countries are publicly divided.

Another question that may be addressed is a lawsuit that a group of Saudis are preparing against the US government and several media outlets for "psychological and economic damages" suffered since the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. The lawsuit was announced August 21 in Washington by Saudi lawyer Katih al Shamri.

The dispute over the succession to the Saudi throne further compounds Saudi Arabia's social problems and the difficulties arising from the conflict in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia is important to the United States, as it accounts for 25 percent of the world's oil reserves and 10 percent of global oil production.
Can you believe the corruption of the Saudi Royal family?
The decadence? Good Grief. Can this regime last very long?
If I were a Saudi citizen, I'd say time for a change! WOW

davefingerRedesigned currency#841909/3/02; 01:13:01

"So what does this portend for the future of the U.S. Dollar? Devaluation! There can be no other explanation for the introduction of a colored currency, which will represent a bifurcated dollar policy of a domestic-use-only dollar for Americans and a foreign dollar overseas. The U.S. version of the currency would be valid only within U.S. borders."

I'm sorry, but this really feels like fear-mongering. There _is_ another explanation. One that is clear, simple and doesn't make me want to reach for the foil hat. From the June 20 Bureau of Engraving press release:

"According to the U.S. Secret Service, $47.5 million in counterfeit money entered into circulation in fiscal year 2001. Of this amount, 39 percent was computer generated, compared with only 0.5 percent in 1995."

"These notes will co-circulate with older series notes. The U.S. government has never recalled or devalued its currency."

While the semantics of 'devalued' can be debated, the intent in this context seems quite clear. And so does the statement, in no uncertain terms, that the new money will co-circulate.

ZhishengSaudi Arabia#841919/3/02; 01:33:45

BlackJack ( msg#: 84189) Can you believe the corruption of the Saudi Royal family?
The decadence? Good Grief. Can this regime last very long?
If I were a Saudi citizen, I'd say time for a change! WOW

Thirty years ago I taught at a University which had a number of students from the Middle East. I had several discussions with students from Saudi Arabia on the politics there. Even at that time, when the people had a much higher per capita income than presently, the feeling among the educated was that the leadership was not investing enough oil money back into the country to hopefully build up some sort of economic base to provide against the inevitable day when the cheap (to obtain) oil ran out.

Those students wanted new leadership and felt that, were the US not providing political backing to the status quo, there would be new leadership--quite quickly. Hence, even though they were profiting by a US education, they were quite negative toward US policy. I suspect those feelings are considerably stronger now.

BlackjackKing Fahd very sick#841929/3/02; 01:45:42

@ Zhisheng

Very interesting idea-that the US keeps Saudi Royals
in power. With the death of King Fahd looming, what happens
in Saudi will be of great importance for oil, gold, world
economy. Anti-americanism is rising in Saudi so it is very
possible we could wind up with a hostile regime. In that case,
how the US administration would react is something to watch
closely. These are very interesting times.

Black Blade"The Barbarous Relics Files" - Cambodian workmen unearth gold Buddha statuettes #841939/3/02; 02:33:02


Cambodian workmen have unearthed 27 solid gold Buddha statuettes, buried for hundreds of years beneath the foundations of a ruined pagoda deep in the jungle. A special police guard had been placed around the pagoda in the central province of Kompong Thom, 120 kilometres north of the capital Phnom Penh, to protect the statues and stop looters flocking to the site.

Black Blade: Yep, it's those dang pesky barbarous relics again. And they need a "special police guard" too. "Barbarous relics eh? Hmmm…

Black BladeTokyo stocks close at 19-year low, dollar lower against yen #841949/3/02; 03:10:50


TOKYO (AP) -- Tokyo's key stock index sank more than 3 percent Tuesday to a new 19-year-low, despite government reassurances that Japan's economy has bottomed out. The dollar was at 117.62 yen, down 0.82 yen from late Monday in Tokyo. The benchmark 225-issue Nikkei Stock Average lost 304.59 points, or 3.12 percent, to close at 9,217.04. It was the Nikkei's lowest close since Sept. 19, 1983, when it was at 9,141.25.

Traders said banking stocks led the market plunge, as investors tried to lock up profits before the first anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks and other major events in coming weeks. Shares of Mizuho Holdings, Sumitomo Mitsui Banking and Mitsubishi-Tokyo Financial Group were the hardest hit because investors worried that economic uncertainty and rising bankruptcies could add to the already massive bad-loan problems at the nation's banks, analysts said.

Black Blade: Only a fool would buy shares of a Japanese bank. It's going to get much worse. The rumor is that a major bank is near failure - Sumitomo Mitsui Banking? The rumor is that the Japanese government will use government employee pension funds to prop up the bank. "Interesting Times"

Also, not only will Consolidated Freightways add 15,000+ to the growing "Bone Pile", but IBM announced that they will likely add another 4,000 for their contribution of nonessential personnel.

Black BladeUS Market Indices Indicate Crash#841959/3/02; 03:15:16

Unless the US stock market futures reverse course by the open, we could be looking at a stock market crash at the open. Meanwhile Gold is slightly positive, the USD is falling, and petroleum is falling on weak demand due to economic collapse. Looks like a lot of "entertainment" in store for Wall Street.

- Black Blade

Black BladeUSD Breaks Below Support - Parity Reached#841969/3/02; 03:43:43

The USD just broke through support on rumors of "political" concerns. CNBC did not specify as it is only a rumor at present. Nevertheless, the US dollar just fell through the floor and the euro rocketed higher to bounce along at about parity. The "entertainment" appears to have begun. Oh yeah, Gold bounced a buck higher.

- Black Blade

Black BladeHmmm... #841979/3/02; 03:45:40

Make that a $1.50 higher and rising.
Black BladeEuro Markets Extend Damage#841989/3/02; 04:05:39

Euro markets are crashing as the euro rockets against the weak US dollar. Corporate earnings are expected to be very poor so investors are bailing out. The US markets have been reporting some earnings, though many are now questioning the quality of those earnings (ie "pro forma" and "operating", etc.). In a word - "Grim".

- Black Blade

misetichSalomon probe turns to senior executives-WSJ#842009/3/02; 05:33:36


NEW YORK, Sept 3 (Reuters) - Amid disclosures that investment- banking clients of Salomon Smith Barney pocketed huge profits from hot IPOs, the New York attorney general's office is looking into the activity of senior Salomon executives who worked closely with former research analyst Jack Grubman, The Wall Street Journal reported in its online edition Tuesday.

Attorney General Eliot Spitzer is seeking to determine if roles played by Grubman's bosses resulted in firm-wide conflicts of interest involving the sale of now-worthless telecommunications stocks during the late 1990s, The Journal reported, citing people with knowledge of the probe.
In addition, they have interviewed telecommunications industry executives who were Salomon clients about the practices of Salomon officials, the Journal reported, citing people close to the situation.

While Grubman is still at the heart of the inquiry, the attorney general's office is specifically interested in the activities of Michael Carpenter, the head of Citigroup Inc.'s (nyse: C - news - people) Salomon unit, Eduardo Mestre, chairman of Salomon's investment bank, and Kevin McCaffrey, head of Salomon's stock-research department and Mr. Grubman's direct supervisor, the Journal reported.

Even though we might expect the fine to be a slap on the wrist ultimately- the collateral damage is severe as pending investors lawsuits and reputational damage will hit Citi

The neighbours must be getting nauseated by the continous stench created as US corporations air their dirty linen

Got gold?

misetichIBM may cut 4,000 jobs after buying Pricewaterhouse-WSJ#842019/3/02; 05:39:26


NEW YORK, Sept 3 (Reuters) - About 4,000 people are likely to lose their jobs as IBM Corp. (nyse: IBM - news - people) completes its acquisition of PricewaterhouseCoopers LLC's [PWC.UL] consulting arm, the Wall Street Journal reported in its online edition Tuesday, citing people familiar with the matter.

It has not been determined how many will come from the Pricewaterhouse consulting group, which has about 30,000 workers, the Journal reported. It was also uncertain how many will come from IBM's 50,000-employee consulting arm, known within IBM as Business Innovation Services, the Journal reported.

More additions for the "BonePile" - Big Blue layoffs are of a silent smelly fart type - noiseless - as they decline to announce such layoffs publicly -

Got gold?

misetichSaddam: America hates Iraq because it stops it from controlling world oil#842029/3/02; 05:54:08


By WAIEL FALEH, Associated Press writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites) gave his own explanation Monday of why the United States was insisting on removing him from power — because Iraq was preventing it from controlling Middle East oil.
"America thinks it must control the world," he was quoted as saying to an envoy from Belarus. "America thinks if it controls the oil of the Middle East then it will control the world," said Saddam, whose comments were carried by the official Iraqi News Agency.

The United States, according to Saddam, has found out that trying to control the world through military means won't work, so it has turned to control Middle East oil, which he said represented 65 percent of world reserves.

"By destroying Iraq, America thinks it could control the oil of the Middle East and force the prices it wants on clients like France, China, Japan and other countries of the world," Saddam said. One reason for the continuation of U.N. sanctions imposed on Iraq since its 1990 invasion of Kuwait, he added, was to "prevent former Soviet Union countries from cooperating economically with Iraq."
On Monday, Saddam said that by controlling world oil and its prices, the United States would be able to determine the growth of world economy.

"Europe has found out about this fact lately, so its stand in support of Iraq is not based on humanitarian or legal grounds but in self-defense of its future, independence and freedom of interests," said Saddam.

"Iraq's battle is no longer a national one, but it is for humanity ..."
Saddam is a continuous thorn on the US side - last year he opted for Euros for Iraq's oil (Iran has recently hinted it may follow his lead) - now he's befriended the Ruskies with billions of $ deals and he's been able to obtain solidarity from the majority of Gulf States

Got gold?

misetichChina Struggles to Cut Reliance on Mideast Oil#842039/3/02; 06:04:15


A "key driver in China's relations with terrorist-sponsoring governments is its dependence on foreign oil to fuel its economic development," the report said. "This dependency is expected to increase over the coming decade."

The Chinese are trying to increase the production of oil and natural gas at home and buy more energy from elsewhere in the Asia-Pacific region, with projects from Australia to Siberia, and from their continental shelf to the deserts of Xinjiang province in the west, Chinese energy company executives and diplomats here said.

But many Western experts predict that China's energy needs will grow far beyond those reserves and that recent efforts, including the increased use of natural gas, can only slow but not reverse the country's dependence on the Middle East, which now supplies three-fifths of China's oil imports. "They are going to be short such a significant amount of crude that there isn't any choice except to rely more on the Middle East," said David Pietz, a specialist on Chinese energy at Washington State University.

China accounted for a quarter of the world's growth in oil use over the last decade, during the last several years becoming the fastest-growing consumer of oil. By 2030, according to the International Energy Agency in Paris, it will import as much oil as the United States does now, an eightfold increase over its current import levels.

"This makes China's energy development critical not only for China but for the world at large," said Robert Priddle, the agency's executive director.
Another result has been an emphasis on energy production instead of conservation. Chinese gasoline prices now rank with those in the United States as among the lowest in the world for oil-importing countries, and are a third of retail prices in Europe, where steep taxes push the price to $4 a gallon or more to discourage gasoline use. The National People's Congress, China's Parliament, has been discussing the imposition of steep gasoline taxes here for two years, but has taken no action.

The era of cheap energy prices is over - Lets follow this amazing oil chess game

Got gold?

misetichSaudi royal family member visits Iraq today#842049/3/02; 06:14:52


The press center of the Iraqi ministry of information announced on Sunday that a Saudi royal family member will start today a visit to Iraq, which is the first of its kind by a Saudi official since cutting of relations between the two states in 1990.

The statement explained that "a Saudi prince from the Royal family will arrive at Saddam's international airport in Baghdad today ( Monday) in a visit to Iraq on board of a plane for the UAE Gulf airline."

The Iraqi press center gave no mention to the name of the prince nor any further details.

However, a great change has been made in the relations between Iraq and Saudi Arabia following the reconciliation took place between Iraq's Deputy Chairman of Revolution Command Council Izzat Ibrahim and Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz on the sideline of the Arab summit which was held in Beirut by the end of March.

Riyadh has repeatedly announced during the few past weeks that it is against striking Iraq.


Interesting tidbit of information

Got gold?

misetichForeign US corporate debt buying off 29 pct in H1 #842059/3/02; 06:41:04


By Dena Aubin

NEW YORK, Aug 30 (Reuters) - Overseas net purchases of U.S. corporate bonds fell by 18 percent in the first half of the year, according to U.S. Treasury Department data, as a weakening dollar and battered confidence in corporate America hurt demand.
Foreigners bought a net $114.8 billion of U.S. corporate bonds in the first half, down from $140.1 billion a year earlier.

Sooner than later the US $ will have to adjust to reality

Got gold?

Paper AvalancheDo TPTB want to taint gold with terrorism?#842069/3/02; 06:45:43

Check out the above link and let me know what you think. I believe that there will be an attempt to portray gold in such a way that to advocate it would be considered un-American per the bought and paid for media.


The Paper Avalanche is commencing.


Tommy PMoving Gold out of Pakistan#842079/3/02; 07:15:16

Good read
Old YellerThe numbers that matter#842089/3/02; 07:34:25

From sharefin.
Cavan ManOld Yeller, if you don't mind.....#842099/3/02; 08:24:30

......that is too good not to post in its' entirety.

Comment on Analysts are named in paragraph 2.
Date 2002/09/02 Mon

Name Nick Laird
Email Address This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Subject TimYou do yourself a disservice

By not thinking about the problems at hand before casting labels and throwing names about.

The aspects I raised in my comments are backed by facts & I don't see why you caste them aside so callously instead of looking into what you disagree with and raising rational points of discussion. Perchance you are employed to paint a rosy picture or is it that you don?t understand the supply/demand aspects of the gold markets.

To whit:
These are facts from the OCC website.
JP Morgan are currently holding gold derivatives with a notional value of $46.04 billion
Their total derivative positions are $23.2 trillion.

JP Morgan currently controls 63% of all the gold derivatives in all American banks.

In 1995 Q1 total US gold derivatives were 34 billion and then they tripled to 99.5 billion in 2000 Q1. Currently they are at 73.5 billion.

These are facts available for all to understand re the growth of gold derivatives.
And kindly supplied by the US Government.

No conspiracy here ? just exponential growth of paper derivatives.

Now to some supply & production numbers.
From 1988 through to 2000 gold production from mine supply has totaled 29,856 tons
From 1988 through to 2000 gold demand has totaled 45,884 tons.

The rate of production to demand is approx 65% with the other 35% or 15,763 tons having been sourced from Central Bank sales, old gold scrap, net hedging or disinvestment.
These are the facts sourced from GMFS data.

Since 1950 gold production from mine supply has totaled 77,676 tons.
If this represents 65% of demand then demand would have been approx 119,500 tons which means that approx 42,000 tons has come been sourced from Central Bank sales, old gold scrap, net hedging or disinvestment.

In 1950 mine production was 827 tons (actual)
In 1960 mine production was 1067 tons (actual)
In 1970 mine production was 1478 tons (actual)
In 1980 mine production was 1219 tons (actual)
In 1990 mine production was 2133 tons (actual)
In 2000 mine production was 2573 tons (actual)

So from the above numbers you can see that production has been expanding through the years.
And hence demand which is mine supply plus approx 35% has been expanding at the same rate of growth.

Using the 65/35 production/stockpiles numbers one can presume that demand was approx:
1272 tons in 1950
1641 tons in 1960
2274 tons in 1970
1875 tons in 1980
3096 tons in 1990 (actual)
3946 tons in 2000 (actual)

Unfortunately I don?t have the statistical data for demand prior to 1988.

Now the stockpile or dishoarding numbers (approx 35%) are:
445 tons in 1950
574 tons in 1960
796 tons in 1970
656 tons in 1980
969 tons in 1990 (actual)
1373 tons in 2000 (actual)

So here it?s quite apparent that demands on the Central Banks, old gold scrap, net hedging or disinvestments is in an accelerating trend.
Now we all know that many Central banks over the last few years have either sold their reserves or leased them to the gold pool to help shore up this ever increasing shortfall number.

Just the other day you posted commentary on the Reserve Bank of Australia which were proud to announce that they received $22 million in return on their $1,500 million in gold which at 1.2 percentage returns is self admission that their total gold pool is out & leased into the markets.

Back in 1996 the Reserve Bank of Australia held 250 odd tons ? now they hold near to none.

Many other Central Banks across the globe have followed the same pattern surrendering their gold reserves to either the US or to London.

The IMF have even rebuked some Central Banks for still holding the physical gold leased out as assets on their books when it really isn?t.
So we have now pieced together the facts that gold derivatives within JP Morgan have grossly swollen these last five years and that JP Morgan is a dominant player to the extent that they dwarf all others.

That the gold deficit has been a heavy drain on above ground stocks these last 50 years and is exponentially increasing in an environment where production has topped out and appears to be falling.

That the central banks have already dishoarded much of their hoards and have no reached a point in time where they are unwilling to add more. Many of them have already divested all that they can and cannot contribute any more into a situation where more is needed.

Where in the above reasoning backed by facts is any conspiracy?
Cannot you understand what is happening in these markets and is occurring right under your very nose?

You as an investigative reporter should be looking more into the anomalies of the gold markets rather than just printing what you are told to do.

As many have complained ?The Mining Web? does seem to have a biased & jaundiced view of late.

I challenge you to take up my call to find out exactly how much physical is actually changing hands in this supposed closing out of hedges. How much of that 365 tons this last six months has actually been physical being shifted from miner to Bullion Bank to Central Bank & thus closing out the positions.
To find out where mere fiat is changing hands and only one side of the position has been removed, or where physical is actually being closed out & returned to the Central Banks from whom this leasing first came.
I would think that you would be shocked in your naivety.

You can easily fob me off with comments of conspiracy and unwittingly refusing to enter into conversation about these numbers & the state of the gold supply/demand situation but that only shows your ignorance or unwillingness to find out the truth. The truth of the problems are held within the understanding of the numbers above.

Like with the way the sharemarkets & the easy money that they stood for became a bubble that burst so to has the gold market become a bubble and is now seeking to unwind the paper promises that cannot be forfilled.

Many believed that they would get 20% a year and retire rich but the reality is far from the truth.

Gold has been papered over so much in the last five years that it?s going to take far higher prices to squeeze the excesses out.

Like I said earlier there?s enough momentum & disequilibrium already inherent within the gold markets to force the price well higher. The added stimuli of financial meltdowns will only be adding fuel to the fire.

In all the above there?s three basic facts which cannot be refuted.
1/ Paper derivative have exploded these last few years.
2/ The gold supply/demand equation has built up a serious deficit position.
3/ That Central Banks have basically run out of stocks to dishoard.

Show me the conspiracy here or go & do your own homework.
The facts are plain & clear & to dispute them suggests of agenda.

I would hazard a guess that when all the numbers come out & that when the players come clean, the truth will be revealed about demand this last decade.
The gold market has created a huge appetite which can only be fed through growing production rates.

And therein lies the crux of the problem.

As I said in my earlier post too much paper has been sold against the physical & only through far higher prices will this problem be alleviated.

JP Morgan & their derivatives book will only add fuel to the fire.
And your jaw & credibility will drop when the price of gold rises to alleviate this problem.


sector@The Invisible Hand - The Link Between Devaluation and an Iraqi war#842109/3/02; 08:51:43

It's needed ... combat what will certainly be a rush to gold and other commodities which will stress to breaking points all the Fed's commodities manipulation efforts.

Once the gold cartel capitulates, they must be ready to devalue immediately in order to save their largest banks from instant credit downgrades as a result of tens of billions in gold derivatives which have no loss ceilings as the pog rises. Subsequent default on their monstrous other derivatives books must be covered as well.

Only by doing so can the Fed dilute their big bank's debt and exposure to impending losses. This debt and the banks themselves must be saved in that their derivatives are so intertwined with all US finace, that their failure IS the US systemic financial failure which rightly may be labled as US and World Financial Armageddon.

So a devaluation is the out.

As far as the Treasury claiming it never devalued it's currency [Per davefinger's post last evening]. There have been two devaluations vs. gold in the last 68 years. 1934 and then again in 1971.

All this may just be a pipe dream and I hope there is still some more time to acquire metal, but the developments seem to me to support a deval vs. a slow uncontrollable inflation which would also have to be synchronized with a Japanese inflation in order to avoid wild imbalances.

Galearis@ Saxulum^ re the sterling story#842119/3/02; 09:17:56

The post is from the latest Midas (James Joyce Table) at GATA.

I sent the original heads-up on this issue To Bill Murphy last week and there would appear to be some momentum and substance to it.
The poster is David Morgan. His findings have been exactly the same as mine. I too have been testing sterling jewelry in many stores, from the very largest to the smallest retailers of sterling jewelry and the alarming results prompted some action on my part.

I have also contacted the Competition Board of Canada and formerly informed them of my findings. (Yes, this is an international issue.)

That is all I am prepared to say on this forum about this story except to state that this would seem to be a very large and serious problem involving a good proportion of sterling silver jewelry produced for the mass market retailers. It would NOT seem to involve small custom made (high-end) manufacturers OR even this SAME jewelry that was manufactured more than 3 years ago or so. This is a developing and quite recent change in the complexion of the jewelry retailing industry.

It would also seem to be a serious one.

Best regards,


a nation of oneabout conspiracies = Cavan Man (9/3/02; 08:24:30MT - msg#: 84209)#842129/3/02; 09:22:46

There never was a room in which all the world's sheep met and agreed to eat grass. But all the world's sheep do eat grass. Is this a conspiracy? According to the dictionary, it is. Most words, especially in English, can be used in more than one way, and this usage is correct. 'Conspiracy' can also mean other things; there are other forms of conspiracy. One meaning often understood is: "[definition 2] an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons;...." But the following is also a conspiracy: [definition 5] "any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result [i.e., that all sheep will eat grass - my comment]." So to be a conspriacy, secrecy and formal agreement are not necessarily a requirement.
sectorPolicy Makers Hone Debate: When to Hold, When to Fold ["Folding" Means a Devaluation]#842139/3/02; 09:40:00

JACKSON HOLE, Wyo., Sept. 1


One of the most provocative ideas was put on the table by Lars E. O. Svensson of Princeton, who proposed what amounted to a big but temporary currency devaluation as a way to encourage prices and demand to rise. His idea was widely criticized; Michael Mussa, a former chief economist for the International Monetary Fund who is now with the Institute of International Economics, noted that the fund's articles of confederation expressly forbid devaluations for the purpose of increasing international competitiveness.

Mr. Svensson also ignited a heated debate by proposing that central banks explicitly acknowledge how much their inflation-fighting policies are costing the economy in lost output and jobs.

His idea was a new twist on the old debate about whether central banks should focus exclusively on price stability or should also seek maximum economic growth. It won some support from other economists who said that central banks are always after maximum economic growth even if they cannot openly acknowledge it in the face of pressure from markets, which can severely punish any perceived lack of inflation-fighting willpower.

But his idea was mostly criticized either as unworkable, since no one has a clear idea of what an economy's maximum sustainable growth rate really is, or unwise because it would inevitably distract from a central bank's inflation fighting role.

That the deval idea was discussed at ALL in Jackson Hole is a clue that behind the scenes it is the topic du jour.

Forget about the IMF's rules red herring. Disinformation like that is always strategically placed to deflect serious resistance. As for the IMF invoking rules, how about the IMF rule that allows central banks to double count gold reserves?

Galearisre my last post on sterling problems#842149/3/02; 10:13:23


The poster of the quoted piece was NOT David Morgan, it was meant to call the situation to the attention OF Mr. Morgan. Mr. Morgan is not the poster of those beginning words.

My apologies are extended to the original poster on the Gata web site and to Mr. Morgan for my error.

Best regards,


WaveriderConsolidated Freightways Lays Off 15,500: Files for Bankruptcy#842159/3/02; 10:32:08

"Seattle, Consolidated Freightways, one of the nation's largest trucking companies, decided to shut down its U.S. operations after 73 years, saying on Labor Day that about 15,500 workers would lose their jobs. The company said it planned to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on Tuesday.

Hundreds showed up for work on the holiday only to find the offices locked, according to a union spokesman, who called it "a slap in the face." "That's like telling your wife you're getting divorced on Valentine's Day," said Carlos N. Ramos, Teamsters Local 776 spokesman in Harrisburg, Pa."

Waverider: 15,500 truck on over to the Bone Pile.

kramrichAssassinations and guerrilla warfare against the U.S.#842169/3/02; 11:23:06

An interesting article on oil, Al-Qaeda, Iraq, Iran and imminent attacks against the U.S.
Belgian@ Old Yeller/ @ Cavan Man#8421709/03/02; 12:01:18

Many thanks for bringing up, Nick Laird's (Sharefin) piece on offer/demand figures. BUT.......!!!

There is "only" one (1) figure that is relatively (!)reliable : Goldmine production of newly mined Gold.
The demand-statistics are misleading. Simply because of double counting. Des-investment and scrap are goldtrades with a seller and a buyer. Same gold has been bought twice or x-times and comes each time on the yearly demand statistics. Gold is heavely traded in India (Far East). The only thing that counts is the statistic on the total amount of Gold, physically, present in that country. An estimated 10.000 tonnes. If next year there is 10.800 tonnes inside the country, we can say that "net" demand was 800 tonnes.

It was Chris Thompson (WGC) who timidly raised the question of more reliable statistics (read : goldinvestment statistics).
This to monitor/manage/promote, Gold Investment in its different forms.
Don't forget that Gold isn't consumed and that the only real demand for Gold is the amount of yearly new mined Gold added to the existing stash.

So, it would be much more interesting to know the evolution of Gold's rotation-speed/momentums. How much Gold is kept/holded/hoarded for how long by the same owner before it changes hands again ?
How much of the total above refined is locked in non-tradable jewelry and proportionate to tradable investment-bullion. How much total physical is actually present in "official" vaults and private *holders* ? What are the different goldinvestment-trends ? etc...

If statistics could give evidence that more and more Gold is bought for pure "investment" purposes, rather than fancy jewelry...than we have a starting point for goldmanagement at the mining level. But such statistics aren't allowed to be published. TOP SECRET !
Gold becoming scarce means that there is an increasing investment demand for bullion, rather than industrial demand. Scarce Gold means that people are holding longer to their Gold wealth and that there is a tendency (demand) to hoard more of the available Gold for long/longer term "investment" purposes. It is with this kind of figures that we could gather much more evidence of what is happening.

Not having these (goldoligarcy insider-known) figures is evidence of...

These fundamental differences in Gold "demand" are managed by POG itself. Gold Jewelry will always have a demand that can be served by the relative flexibility of mine-production. It is "investment" demand for Gold that is much more delicate to control. That's why the paper market was invented and promoted. The prospect of serious Gold investment (hoarding) was always a nightmare.

I've come to the point that all these statistics have no significance as to "value" one's physical Gold in possession. What difference would it, theoretically, make, if tomorrow, there's not one single ounce mined anymore and nobody wants to hold/value, Gold !? What will happen to the jewelry industry if tomorrow Gold is valued at 30.000 of present dollars ? This to absolutely, relativate the statistical offer/demand impacts on Gold's *intrinsic* VALUE !

Gold is and remains *THE* ultimate reserve, officially and privately. Valuing Reserve-Gold has little or nothing to do with the offer/demand equations. And it is the official price-manipulation that affects "private" reserve-Gold decisions/perceptions/policies.

Easier to understand when one only considers his physical gold ownership in total dis-connection with paper-prices (read goldmine fluctuations). One day, Gold, itself, will not allow to be abused for the amusement of "speculation" or gambling. Gold is a very serious thing. For the time being, too serious, for the majority of modern man. Gold had to be ridiculed.

Thank you both for bringing this aspect again on the table.

G-khanSterling Silver at Walmarts!#8421809/03/02; 12:17:20

I want to say hi first, many of you seem like old friends as I have been reading this wonderfull site for 3 years. Next I will say thank you as I have stole many a posts and used them on the site where I call home. You guys are great! Black Blade you are relentless and are everywhere.. Do you sleep?

I wanted to clear up the silver issue with the magnets. I went to Walmart and just got back, I tested 20 Sterling Silver chains and none of them were attracted by the magnet! Some of the fastners for the chains did attract - my assesment is this post was BS..

Tested at Wallmart St. Cloud MN store

Silver is King

Gandalf the WhiteThe "4th Birthday" Gold Price Settlement Guessing Contest !#8421909/03/02; 12:19:57

The soft melodic strains of the tune "Happy Birthday", played by a roving string band directed by PH in LA, echo throughout the Castle. TC taps his staff and announces:

"Your ATTENTION, Please !!
Hear Ye. . . .Hear Ye. . . . A Call to Contest during this Month of "Fourth Birthday Celebrations" !
Under the auspices of SIR MK, our USAGOLD Forum host, Centennial Precious Metals, Inc., is requesting a test of your thinking, predicting and posting skills in a GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT GUESSING CONTEST !"

A cheer rises from the assembled, and SIR MK rushes into the courtroom. "What is happening?", he asks !

"TC is announcing the Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT GUESSING CONTEST", advises BB !

SIR MK astoundingly replies, "BUT, I did not hear ALL the TRUMPETS and DRUMS blasting away and shaking the rafters with the noise !"

"OK !" replies BB, "We didn't think that you really wished to hear them, BUT if you wish ---"

"NO, NO !" interrupts SIR MK, "Save them for the BIG "Happy Birthday Essay Contest" that we are PLANNING !"

BB smiles, and returns his attention to TC's announcement, as SIR MK returns to the Throne Room.
1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
OK ALL -- EARLY "Price Guesses" give you RIGHTS to your choice. Please be sure to check to see if anyone has taken your desired Price Guess so as to not be disqualified !! Be sure to enter your prognostication before someone takes your lucky guess. What is it that is said about holding your breath until one turns "BLUE"? Turn "GOLDEN" soon.

The Old Wiz is seeing that there will be over TWO hundred entries this time, so do not wait toooo long before you make that claim of the correct settlement price !! In order to start things off in the correct direction, the Hobbits shall make their entry SOON. BTW, Tuesday's (9-3-02) GC2Z Settlement Price was $315.0 and ranged in NY between $314.1 and $315.9 -- WHEREAS, the SPOT Gold price was at about $314. ----About 90,000 GC2Z contracts are "Open",


glennh10Re: Sterling Scam#8422009/03/02; 12:20:37

Anyone discovering/verifying this fraud needs to:

(1) report it to the local authorities (BBB, law enforcecment)
(2) Notify local media broadcasters

Notifying store managements is not enough. The news medai would cover a story like this far and wide. Whether it's a small scale operation or not will then come out. If you see it, report it.

Gandalf the White$$$$ $321.0 $$$$#8422109/03/02; 12:29:20

Gold is important to THIS owner because he knows that he has something that will assure financial peace of mind and allow him to safety provide for his extended family in time of crisis.

KodieGold Contest $$$$ 318.60 $$$$#8422209/03/02; 12:41:26

Gold is important and serves as insurance for me. I'm a physical bullion holder because I believe gold is real money, and will increase in value over the next few years where FRN's will lose value. Of all the assets I have, I trust the gold the most.

$$$$ 318.60 $$$$

Tommy P$$$$322.25$$$$#8422309/03/02; 12:58:47

Movin on up!
Tommy P$$$$322.2$$$$#8422409/03/02; 12:59:40

Movin on up!
Ag MountainHere's another scam to add to the list!#8422509/03/02; 13:04:25

Of equal importance to the sterling silver jewelry thing, I want to make sure everyone at this forum knows about a similar SCAM!! This deserves our fullest attention and gold can wait until we get to the bottom of it!

I have been doing extensive research and found that bartenders everywhere are watering down drinks!!!!!!! When you take your first sip eveything seems fine, but by the time you get to the bottom of your glass it is all watery. I wanted to make sure my judgement wasn't off from the effects of the booze, so I have been taking samples for official testing! I have reached in my glass as soon as it is served to grab out a few sample pieces of my drinks to put in a ziploc bag. My samples always melt before I can get them to the lab man but he tells me it is only a change in phase from solid to liquid but the composition doesn't change.

The samples are almost always 100% water with just traces of booze!!! This needs our forum's full attention!! It seems that bartenders are sneaking water into our drinks disguised as ice. It is invisible and you can't see it after it melts!! I have talked to management and they say the ice isn't a scam but is to make the drink "cold" they say. HA! Isn't that what a refrigerator is for???

They also say the spring steel in a sterling chain's clasp will positively respond to the force induced by a magnetic field brought in near proximity. They say this causes such a ferromagnetic body like the spring steel component freely suspended in a silver chain's clasp to deflect beyond the sole influence of earth's gravimetric force. Yeah right!!!

18KGold Price $$$$320.20$$$$#8422609/03/02; 13:18:00

I was somewhat of a doubter at first (hence being only 18K), but I've come to realize that gold is in fact the only real store of true wealth.
Gandalf the WhiteAttn: Sir Tommy P #8422709/03/02; 13:34:22

Tommy P (09/03/02; 12:59:40MT - msg#: 84224)
Movin on up!
Hail Sir Tommy P
To be "eligible" your Price Guess MUST be accompied by a statement of "Why gold is important to YOU as an investor/owner."

a nation of onediluted silver and adulterated drinks#8422809/03/02; 13:43:32

Well of course that's the whole reason I never go to bars. But wait till you find out where they get your shoe leather from. It comes off of cows! Did you know that? They take the skin right off of real cows, do a lot of stuff to it and then sew it together to make shoes. Talk about cheap! And the worst part of it is that they charge you more for the so-called 'genuine cowhide' than they do for the other stuff which they use sometimes instead. Talk about your conspiracies. This is the strangest one I ever heard of. What's important to realize is, it really is true.

(But I do have to admit. The silver story did surprise me.)

a nation of one$$$$ 323.20 $$$$#8422909/03/02; 13:55:53

I like gold because it is beautiful and real. And because once I own it, no human being -or entity- in the whole world can make it stop being beautiful and real.
USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Gold can help you weather whatever comes your way.#8423009/03/02; 14:19:10


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Galearis@G-Khan#8423109/03/02; 14:19:19

magnetic sterling silver

Hello G-Khan,

I invite you to try again.
This time suspend the card of chains (usually in a wide shallow box) by holding the display as near to vertcal as you can. Use the magnet on the bodies of the chain and watch for movement. The problem "sterling" is weakly magnetic. If the chains are lying flat, the magnetic attraction may not be apparent. Many or few of these chains will react to the magnet you will certainly find some variation, but "success" would seem to vary, dependent on the volume of goods sold and how often the stock is replenished. Major Department stores have much volume of sales so you should see some greater percentage of magnetism in the product line of these stores. (Note too that the magnet will not attract silver plated items over brass.) I think the magnetic chain bodies are made from nickel, which is weakly magnetic.

Do NOT test the clasps. It has a small bit of spring steel in the moving part. Test everything in chains - and please note whether or not all the magnetic chains are from a certain Mediteranean country.

And thirdly, do not be so quick to dismiss others words - and if you do so, try to be a little more polite. Problems have been found by numerous individuals now with these chains. I too have handled sterling jewelry for years and I generally KNOW problem pieces when I see them. I did not check one (however) that I bought new last January. (I relied upon a past reputation for scrupulousness in their sterling product.)It was magnetic and some rough handling over the summer revealed plated product. The metal underneath is quite hard and resists cutting with a knife blade rather well.It was clearly stamped in two places '925, and the display case advertised it as 'sterling silver'. That got me checking aggressively every outlet that I have come upon since- including a flea market. I HAVE FOUND PROBLEMS IN EVERY PLACE OF BUSINESS THAT I HAVE CHECKED bar NONE.

There is NO doubt in my mind that this is a pervasive problem that will reflect poorly on the whole jewelry industry for many years. I have never, nor have I heard of "problem" sterling wares being so universally stocked in so many stores ever before. I have personally checked several retail outlets this past week, after revealing this publically, as has my brother. We have always found considerable problems in these retail outlets with their chain lines (of a certain type - usually their heavy chain lines). Also, my experience with old (collectible) sterling would certainly have revealed something, if this had been a serious problem in the past. It has not. Oh, yes, there has always been a little bit of this going on, but never on this scale before. This is very, very big.

'Nough said.



P.S. I have reported the situation to the Canada Competition Board (that handles precious purity standards metal fraud) and have also detailed the situation to a national T.V. broadcasting network. I would not do this unless I was very sure there was a problem.

Black BladeWhat A Day!!!#8423209/03/02; 14:24:08

The story on Wall Street is ugly and it is getting worse. I finally got the "Daily Gold Market Report" up as more news was coming across the wire. There are already "pre-announcement" warnings coming out and a report that personal bankruptcies have hit a new record. It should be quite "entertaining" tonight when the Asian markets open. Of interest is the massive outflows in mutual funds and this last month and this month appear to be on track to make new records as far as outflows are concerned. That means the equities markets could be under severe pressure.

- Black Blade

G Khan - Good to see you here. I have also noticed your work. Sleep? I'll have to give that a try sometime. Hmmm... Cheers!

Tommy P$$$$322.2$$$$#8423309/03/02; 14:33:23

My portfolio is 45% gold. And the truth will sent you free! cheers!
R PowellBlack Blade#8423409/03/02; 14:39:00

I tried both the Afternoon Gold Report and the Daily Market Report but both still bring up the August 26, 2002 report that reports POG slightly over $330/ounce.
Thanks for the report and all your other info but can the links be updated or, if there is a secret door to today's report, may I borrow the key?

davefinger$$$$ 319.50 $$$$#8423509/03/02; 14:52:14

Gold is important to me because I regard it as the ultimate store of value. I love quotes, especially ones related to gold, so here's a few choice ones!

"We have not seen old worthless gold bars for sale, but worthless stock certificates are easy to find..." Anon

"Although gold and silver are not by nature money, money is by nature gold and silver." George Bernard Shaw

"The possession of gold has ruined fewer men than the lack of it." Thomas Bailey Aldrich

"When gold argues the case, eloquence is impotent." Publius Syrus first century BC

"Gold and silver. They are the legal tender of Commerce
and the Constitution....the legal tender of God Almighty, who has made it precious." Samuel Cox, 1870

"Like liberty, gold never stays where it is undervalued." J. S. Morrill 1878

Found these and many more good ones, though not all directly gold related, at:

Mr GreshamUltimate Conspiracy#8423609/03/02; 14:58:06

Well, here it is. And this piece was written 6 years ago, so obviously its lack of widespread knowledge is evidence of the conspiracy itself. (BTW, my tin-foil brothers -- I'm keeping my membership up-to-date! You never know when one of these is going to pay off -- BIG TIME!)

"ANOTHER Microsoft Conspiracy"

By Tom Magliozzi (one of "The Car Talk Guys")

"There exists in American culture today, a polarization of values far more serious than political preference, race, or religion. A cultural difference which could one day destroy the very fiber of the values on which this great country is founded. An issue which brings out feelings and emotions profound enough to cause a crack in the cosmic egg of life as we know it....

"The real question is this: "Given the small differences between them, why do 90 percent of computer users have PC's?"

"I'll tell you why. Because we've all become addicts! Tens of millions of unsuspecting computer users were given--free of charge--an innocuous little game when we bought or otherwise acquired Windows. You turn on your PC and there it is. SOLITAIRE! You try it. It's fun, so you try it again. Pretty soon, you forget to eat lunch. Then you forget to take a haircut. Then you forget to go home. When you finally do remember to go home, you can't, because you missed the train (and your pants are all wet)....

"I don't play solitaire with real playing cards. I don't play it on my wife's dreaded Mac. Why on Microsoft? Because on Microsoft Solitaire I WIN! It has become clear to me that the odds of winning this game are far better than they ought to be. Have any of you noticed that the odds of winning virtual solitaire are NOT the same as real world solitaire?


"And WHO is responsible for this plot, this cabal, this conspiracy? Microsoft, that's who! Now why would Bill Gates, that little devil, have taken this simple little game and fixed it so we win? Bill ain't no dummy. He doesn't do anything without giving it a lot of thought. And, as we all know, he likes money. So the only reasonable conclusion is that Bill is getting us hooked; and should we EVER consider a switch to the MacIntosh camp, WHAMMO. He shuts us off. We start losing. We get depressed. We need our fix, so we seek out a windows machine and we're OK for another day.

"Bill Gates is a drug dealer! Plain and simple.

"Now repeat after me: "My name is Tom Magliozzi, and I'm a solitaire addict. HELP ME! HELP ME!"

G: If anyone wants to know how to remove Games via the Windows Control Panel utility, just ask. I'm an expert -- I do it at least once or twice a day... ;)

ZhishengGold and Jade#8423709/03/02; 14:58:21


In some parts of the world jade may rival gold as a valued personal possession. In China, for instance, in the days of eld, a war was fought over a particularly fine piece of jade.

You see jade has a peculiar attraction for QI (pronounced "chee" as in cheese): that intangible, but very real, element which is essential to nearly every Chinese art.

It may be argued that there is no more important art (or science) that that of preservation of health. An ailment is often reflected, and perhaps at times caused, by the qi associated with it. Certain (not all) jade will attract this qi. So a piece of jade may have beneficent qi, or maleficent qi, or qi of a neutral nature (to human health).

Some (perhaps most) of you will feel what follows incredible and not a suitable subject for this site. But it is ONLY introduced because of its connection to gold, and that the knowledge of what I am about to write could do much good.

Beautiful jade is warn many ways: as ear pendants, as bracelets, but perhaps most often on a necklace. To wear jade, there must be some way of attachment to the body. It can be contained within a clasp; or a hole can be bored through it, and a line or chain passed through the hole, or a ring attached by means of the hole, through which ring a line or chain passes. The important cosideration is what type of material is in direct contact with the jade. Unfortunately most materials will disturb beneficent qi, and some will even give the jade an unpleasant painful feeling.

The most common materials in jade jewelry which contact the stone are gold, platinum, and silver. Platinum, which in China is called White Gold, is quite popular nowdays. However platinum has actually a quite negative influence on jade. Silver is not nearly as bad as platinum.

BUT PURE GOLD HAS NO NEGATIVE INFLUENCE. Unfortunately pure gold is soft, and so one rarely finds it without alloy in jewelry--and the alloy can (and often does) cause trouble with respect to jade. The simplest solution in wearing a piece of jade (if it has a hole through it) is to wear it with a piece of silk. However, if it can be managed properly, the best metallic solution to the problem is with gold.

WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8423809/03/02; 14:58:37

Black Blade - thanks for the DMR...please note that the date needs updating to Sept. 3 (all the days roll into one when one doesn't need to sleep...yes?) Thanks!

Rich - go to your tool bar at the top of your screen, go to Tools, go to Internet Options, go to Temporary Internet Files and hit Delete Files, and below to History and hit Delete History...that should clear memory to get the updated report. Cheers,


R PowellGalearis // G-khan#8423909/03/02; 15:01:27

G-khan, I don't understand the attack on Galearis' report of the possibility that plated silver is being sold as sterling. Knowing your affinity to silver as I do I can only suppose that you have mistakenly viewed Galearis as someone spreading negative or discouraging information about silver in order to discourage silver investment. I can assure you this is not the case.

There are very few people more involved or enthusiastic about reporting the continuing silver deficit and dwindling existing supply than BOTH of you. Perhaps only Butler and Morgan.

If bogus jewelry is being offered, reporting such (to hopefully stop this deception) is certainly not anti-silver propoganda. Buying silver and then discovering that you have been cheated will discourage further investment. Let's get this resolved and then ask "Why was the sterling plated? Isn't there enough silver to produce 925 sterling?"

Perhaps a campaign focusing in on the buying of one form of silver- perhaps silver eagles- would more quickly precipitate the market's awakening to the oh-so-low remaining world stash yet available.

Please give my regards to your Gold-Eagle compadres. I've been especially dazzled by the accuracy of your technical analysis outlooks. Better than many whose opinion I sometimes pay for!
Silver is king!

ZhishengCorrection.#8424009/03/02; 15:06:26

Guess should have been $$$320.0$$$.
TownCrierAn incredible headline#8424109/03/02; 15:14:04

What knowledgeable and responsible financial reporter could in good conscience call a mere derivative "safe" in these times??

Just ask Bunker, Herbert, Lamar, and some Saudi investment "colleagues" whether or not investments in Comex instruments were safely as good as the real thing (silver in their case -- c. 1980).

Only time will tell how these counterparty contracts will measure up to reality in times of *true stress* -- those being the very same times against which gold is acquired and held to begin with.


HEADLINE: Safe COMEX gold ends firm as U.S. markets clobbered

NEW YORK, Sept 3 (Reuters) - COMEX gold rose on Tuesday as investors ransacked the stock market upon returning from a three-day weekend, while a tumbling dollar made precious metals look cheaper for overseas investors looking for safe havens.

...The greenback dropped to a one-month low against the euro at $0.9973, raising the bullion purchasing power of European investors and fabricators. It fell to its cheapest in almost three weeks against the yen.

...Washington's stance on "regime change" in Iraq has also buoyed the yellow metal, which is 13 percent higher than at the start of the year, making it one of the best performing assets.

R PowellWaverider#8424209/03/02; 15:15:04

It's working now. Thanks!
Black BladeRe: Waverider and Rich#8424309/03/02; 15:18:27

Waverider - Thanks, yes the dates sometimes blow by fast so that it can be a blur. I was in a bit of a rush as I was scouting out some hunting areas for elk this morning. I will go back this afternoon for a couple of hours. I have finished a review of "The Prize" by Daniel Yergin, and now I am reading "Green Monday". "Green Monday" is a novel that is a thinly disguised history of events out of the late 1970's with a few good twists. Only the names have been changed (grin). Cheers!

Rich - I don't know what to say. I clear my drive daily though. When I fire up the computer I go to "my computer" on my desk top, then click on "C drive", go to properties and clear files. It also lets the machine run a bit quicker. But I use windows 2000. As they say - "results may vary". Cheers!

Off to the gym and then to slay an elk (maybe?).

luckypierre$$$$327.3$$$$#8424409/03/02; 15:20:51

Because I just love this stuff!
Black BladeRe: Zhisheng - Jade#8424509/03/02; 15:25:52

Just a quick note. I saw some very impressive jade carvings, tea sets and china sets in the national museum in Myanmar. I brought several gem stones in Myanmar during my work there (rubies, saphires, zircons, etc.). Yet I never bought any "imperial jade" which was more expensive than the gems stone. It is a very nice light green cut transluscent stone, yet it is well out of my price range. I do wish that I had some for my "collection". It is most valued among jewelers in Myanmar. Cheers!

- Black Blade

Gotta run!

Black BladeCorrection - Jade#8424609/03/02; 15:28:36

That was at the national museum in Yangon, Myanmar. The "imperial jade" is more costly than the other gemstones.

- Black Blade

Mr GreshamR Powell#8424709/03/02; 15:51:39

Thanks for your words, as usual, which shine a light on misunderstandings. It's easy sometimes in the darkness it's easy to mistake a friend returning from patrol for a foe trying to infiltrate our lines. Especially when we're already so outnumbered.

"Friendly" fire is one of the great sub-tragedies of war. (And if you don't think this is, just wait till we see the other side's playbook someday...)

Mr Greshamoops#8424809/03/02; 15:53:25

And when you rush to post, as under "friendly" domestic pressure, why, you could say just about any durned ol' thing!
misetichBrazil markets hit by Wall St woes, election fears#8424909/03/02; 16:08:49

The country's currency, the real <BRBY>, slid 1.2 percent to 3.10 per dollar, leaving it nearly 3 percent lower than where it started the week and more than a quarter weaker than where it began 2002. On Monday the real dipped 1.7 percent to 3.062 to the dollar.
The US economic malaise is contagious - worldwide - Brazil's stock market tumbled down badly following WS - Lets stay on this TRAIL - will Brazil default?

Got gold?

Cavan ManI am simply amazed by what I read these "dog days".#8425009/03/02; 16:24:06

Blair Warns Iraq It Could Face 'Regime Change'
Tue Sep 3,11:04 AM ET
By Dominic Evans

SEDGEFIELD, England (Reuters) - British Prime Minister Tony Blair ( news - web sites) issued a stark warning to Iraqi President Saddam Hussein ( news - web sites) on Tuesday -- comply with U.N. resolutions on weapons of mass destruction or face "regime change."

Blair told a news conference Iraq posed a real and unique threat to the Middle East and the world, and said the international community, not just the United States, had to deal with that threat.

Blair insisted no decisions had been taken by London or Washington on what kind of action should be taken against Baghdad, but added:

"Either the regime starts to function in a completely different way...or the regime has to change."

Blair said he would like the United Nations ( news - web sites) to be involved in dealing with Iraq, but hinted that the lack of a new U.N. resolution backing action should not mean the international community could stand by and let the problem persist.

"The important that the U.N. has to be the route to deal with this problem, not a way of people avoiding dealing with this problem," he told the news conference in his northeast England constituency of Sedgefield.

President Bush ( news - web sites) has made "regime change" in Baghdad a priority of his policy and his administration has used the past few weeks to set out its case for military action against Saddam, whom it suspects of developing weapons of mass destruction.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has said London's priority is to get weapons inspectors back into Iraq.

In a bid to deflect growing momentum in Washington for a military strike, Iraq's Deputy Prime Minister Tareq Aziz has said Baghdad is ready to cooperate with the United Nations to find a comprehensive solution to its crisis with the U.S.

But Blair said there would be no negotiations.

"Weapons inspectors should go back in -- unconditionally, any time, any place, anywhere, under a weapons inspection regime that really makes a difference," he said. "If the Iraqis refuse that, then we have to find a different way of dealing with it."

Speaking after talks with U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan ( news - web sites) at the Earth Summit in Johannesburg, Aziz cited previous invitations to U.S. and British politicians to visit Iraq to check for banned arms.

Blair gave no direct response to the Aziz's offer but hammered home his point that the world could not stand by and allow Saddam to continue breaching U.N. resolutions.

"This is an appalling, brutal, dictatorial, vicious regime...the people that would be most delighted if Saddam Hussein went would be the Iraqi people," he said.

"Iraq poses a real and unique threat to the security of the region and the rest of the world, Saddam Hussein is continuing his efforts to develop weapons of mass destruction....(and) he is in breach of UN resolutions. And confronted with this reality, we have to face up to it and deal with it."

misetichOne Year Later - I've never had much sympathy for the momentum approach to macro. In the face of adverse fundamentals, I worry more about a deep sense of denial that continues to pervade the psyche of the American consumer. These are the excesses that can only end in tears.#8425109/03/02; 16:27:37


Finally, it's important to take note of the increasingly shaky state of a US-centric global economy. No matter how you cut it, the world is sputtering again. That's certainly the case in Europe, with weakness in Germany leading the way.
Meanwhile, the Asian outlook is fraying around the edges. That's especially the case in Japan, where a renewed weakening of production underscores the downside risks evident in recently revised GDP statistics
A year later, we all long for healing. But the bottom line is that post-shock resilience came at a real cost. That bill has yet to be paid.
The excesses of the 90's - That bill has yet to be paid also

Got gold?

slingshotContest#8425209/03/02; 16:35:57


Gold will not move above $320.00 unless there is an miltary conflict in the M.E. This line in the sand will be held so those who wish to acquire gold can do so at a bargain price.
The miltary buildup by the US is not fully covered by the news media. The Arab states have refused use of their bases for the war (Suez Canal/Saudi Arabia) so the time frame for the attack has been pushed back till they find a viable plan. The ammunition makers are at full bore. Posible two or more fronts if war breaks out. The US will go it alone. Until then gold IMHO will stay below $320.00 But when the shooting starts, LOOK OUT.

misetichPassing the Buck- Yet Mr. Greenspan's remarks reinforce a worry I've had for the past few months: that Fed officials will respond to continuing economic weakness not with action but with excuses#8425309/03/02; 16:39:46

You see, Mr. Greenspan is the only economic policy maker we have. Fiscal policy is effectively off the table, partly because of long-run deficits worsened by Mr. Greenspan's own bad advice. Funny how he wasn't sure that Nasdaq 5,000 was a bubble, but believed that 10-year surplus projections were reliable enough to justify a huge tax cut. In any case, serious fiscal action is ruled out by the Bush administration's relentless opportunism; every proposal for short-run economic stimulus turns into an attempt to lock in permanent tax cuts for corporations and the wealthy. So if the recovery continues to lose momentum, it's up to the Fed to take matters in hand.

Greenspan's going out in the sunset - Japanese style

Got gold?

slingshotContest#8425409/03/02; 16:57:17


Please make this addition to my last post.

In todays world, gold will soon be the only insurance readily acceptable for all transactions, foreign and domestic. That is why it is important to own gold.
Too many hours at The Mill.

gvc$$$$ 342.50 $$$$$$#8425509/03/02; 17:08:12

per contest rules: gold is important to me as an investor/owner simply because I sincerely believe that it is the best place to be invested in to make the most profit over the course of the next 21 months. good luck to all!
R PowellPOG greater than POPalladium#8425609/03/02; 17:09:50

According to Kitco which lists Palladium at $306 and according to Bulliondesk which lists the ask of palladium at $311. Now POG can concentrate entirely on overcoming Platinum. At that point the only precious metal priced higher in dollar terms will be..... Naw, couldn't happen, could it?

Bound Spirit$$$$$319.8$$$$$#8425709/03/02; 17:20:54

I am purposely recording my guess early precisely because it puts me at a contest disadvantage. Whether this early guess is truly a disadvantage is irrelevant to my purpose. The fact that I perceive it to be is all that matters.

I'm doing this because the ideological statement required by the contest is far more important than winning the price guess. At this site, I hope and assume that most contributors here share this belief with me. If you don't then your belief in gold is simply as an investment and you would be likewise invested in paper if you perceived that to be a better return. Now, I wouldn't be honest if I didn't say that I would like to get rich upon gold's return to its former glory. But if it doesn't, I will still own it and accumulate it as much as possible. I will still own gold because for me it is putting my money where my mouth is.

IMHO, accumulating gold is the most patriotic thing one can do short of picking up arms and promoting revolution. I used to think that our constitution would see us through all challenges, but now I know the falsity of that utopian ideal. The time for talk and political solutions is over. An economic disaster or worse is our last hope - and I don't say that lightly. If I had faith that there were enough US citizens to carry the torch of freedom and who understood the responsibilities required to keep it, I would vote republican and own equities. Sadly however, I'm certain that our population has completely lost touch with our history and our critical democratic responsibilities. Nearly three quarters of the earth's population lives in poverty and under tyranny but we seldom ask ourselves how we were able to overcome that viscous cycle? What were the ideas that helped us do it and what were the costs in human terms? How many of us today would be willing to give up our wealth and physical safety to ensure that that great quantum leap for humanity is not lost. Indeed, how many would even know what I'm talking about.

If you own gold, you are putting support behind the idea that government intrinsically should be limited. Through incessant propaganda, rationalizations, political demagoguery and liberal self-interest and self-righteousness - ignorance and governmental dependency have supplanted the idea of personal responsibility. For me, the socialization of our money was just icing on the cake. I can never express it very well so I usually resort to the following quote by Edmund Burke who understood democracy more than most and, in 1791 wrote as follows: (read this carefully)

"Men are qualified for civil liberties in exact proportion to their disposition to put
moral chains upon their own appetites, in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of
understanding is above their vanity and presumption, and in proportion as they are more
disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of
knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed
somewhere; and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained
in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free.
Their passions forge their fetters."

Gold is important to me because when I listen to the counsels of the wise and good, gold shines through. It promotes freedom because it limits the power of government, it insures domestic tranquility by simplifying our economic transactions and wealth building endeavors. It makes truth transparent and forces our attention on larger questions - like "does life have a purpose".

There are only two reasons to own gold. To show support for the written precepts laid down at great risk by our founding fathers and as a survival tool so that the concepts of freedom can survive with us.

Gandalf the WhiteWOWSERS there SIR Bound Spirit !!! <;-)#8425809/03/02; 18:13:14

Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
Perhaps we should consider giving PRIZES for the "BEST" reasons that individuals own their GOLD !

cyberbatWhat's happening over there!!#8425909/03/02; 18:31:15

As we speak, the japanese are tanking to the tune of -500 points. Come in Sir Black Blade. Where are you ? I need for you to address this issue. Something surely has to be going on!!
Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST"#8426009/03/02; 18:33:04

UPDATE (as of 18:30 Denver time 9/3/02)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)

$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
Thanks all for jumping in so early !
(and nice recoveries there Sir Tommy P and Sir Slingshot.)

turkey hunter$$$$$ 326.50 $$$$$$#8426109/03/02; 18:33:51

I own gold because it helps me to get out of the system (fractional reserve). They are not going to charge usury by using my cash!!!! One by one we can make a difference.
a nation of oneidealism#8426209/03/02; 18:37:49

Every noble plea contains a secret cause.
Andúrilidealism...#8426309/03/02; 18:46:14

Or not so secret. Example: the want for a more perfect order of affairs; a better human condition.
a nation of one(No Subject)#8426409/03/02; 18:57:24

Yes, Arundal. It seems so. But look for the cause that is secret.
Frosty$$$$Contest$$$$#8426509/03/02; 18:59:09


After spending 3 years of reading this fantastic forum every day, I have learned that Gold is the only real money that will survive the coming paper storm that is surely on its way. Timing is the hard part, as the Fed will do everything it can to stop must stop it or....

a nation of onecorrection#8426609/03/02; 19:00:50

Correction: Andúril. I apologize.
sectorGreenspan's Attempt to Save Face#8426709/03/02; 19:02:50

The Jackson Hole Speech

I have pointed out many times here that AG, alias "The MoTU "[Master of the Universe], is critically interested in face saving. It subsumes his life. Fed meeting are orchestrated love-ins to his highness - The MoTU, according to insiders. Alternative viewpoints are quickly discarded. The two-week notice departure of Lawrence Meyer from the FOMC last year was another example of internal strife at the highest levels of the Fed.

That Greenspan would so quickly begin a formalized defense of his "Legacy" suggests that he already knows what's coming real soon and that it is BAD. Does he know the end of the gold manipulation is at hand? There is no way to know right now, but it's pretty tough to keep gold down when the Middle East is UP [In arms in a war]. The DOW will fall and the economy will fall.

The election will take its toll on incumbents as there is a strong correlation between poor economies and mid-term incumbent party failures.

Greenspan may feel that he is headed for a scapegoat status, left "Twisting in the wind". He may not be able to deal with this thus he is now doing what he can to provide what Krugman suggests are "Excuses".

More "Dots" to fill in the picture.

a nation of onejust some thoughts#8426809/03/02; 19:10:14

It cannot be the case that the administration has secret information about Iraq -of a nature that would require aggression against that nation, and also of a kind that would need to be secret- because if that were the case, it would be inadvisable to try and justify such war by means of vague, and incorrect, excuses and misguided psychological explanations. It is good to be able to recognize that if such secret information were possessed by the administration, it would be different from anything that has been stated openly, and that nothing else would need to be stated openly, except that there is such secret information. Instead, what we have seen is that a great deal of tentative posturing is being openly engaged in, ostensibly to find out the attitude of the American public, but in reality to alter it, with regard to such an aggression, in order to prepare for what is wanted to be carried out. If information of a truly compelling nature were in the administration's hands, it would not need to be secret. Therefore, on the information that I have, I do agree that a 'regime change' is recommendable, tough not in Iraq, but in the United States, and not by means of violence, but by that means which every Citizen by law possesses, namely, by voting for one when the opportunity comes. It isn't only Isreal that the American taxpayer has no lasting interest in supporting, but it is on the Americans themselves that their own energies and monies need rightfully to be spent, nor on unnecessary wars in any place, but on healthy pursuits, not on juvenile ones like bullying the weaker nations of the world, but on improving the quality and situation of our own people, not through an eagerness for war, but by cultivation of things known to produce beneficial results. Without possessing any so-called 'secret' information relating to the impending belligerency against Iraq (for belligerency is what an unprovoked attack would be), one conclusion necessarily to be reached by any adult citizen is that attacking Iraq would probably be an irresponsible act, regardless of whether Iraq is potentially a direct enemy of ours, and that our government's present administration's attempts at bypassing, subverting, ignoring, corrupting, and rendering useless the laws of our nation to serve its own purposes has no intention more than to intimidate our own people into taking no action to prevent the partial destruction of our country, and our liberties and freedoms, so that an immature president can think that he is completing the actions which his father left unfinished. What happened to our beliefs? The ones on which our nation was founded? Why have we allowed men ambitious to become our tyrants deal with us in the manner to which they are so obviously committed? Do the phrases, "As for me, give me liberty or give me death," and, "I only regret that I have but one life to give for my country," mean nothing? Have we come to this? That we put our children's lives, our own property, and everything that our ancestors fought for, on the line, to be sacrified in the worship of doing nothing, lest we be accused of not being patriots? To avoid the real and lasting pleasures of accepting responsibility for ourselves and for our own action, do we walk so glibly into the hellish fires of war and loss of freedom? Such weakness deserves to be destroyed. And it will be, one way or another. But I do not believe for a moment that it is the case that we are a nation of imbeciles and care-nots. As for gold, what can its value be in such a world, but treasure held between our person and those who would do us harm? Silence in such straights is not wisdom but cowardice. As a price of safety, the surrender of liberty is surrender nonetheless. It is a self-destructive giving-up of those very aspects which make our lives better than those without liberty. Far better a dangerous life lived on the basis of one's own beliefs and respectable laws, than one supresssed by powerful but wrong-minded regimes.

[I alone bear responsibility for the content of this post.]

The Invisible HandAl Qaeda gold shipped to Sudan#8426909/03/02; 19:26:02

(Reuters) - The Al Qaeda network and Afghanistan's deposed Taliban militia have sent several shipment of gold to Sudan in recent week, The Washington Post reported on Tuesday, citing European, Pakistani and U.S. investigators. The newspaper quoted sources as saying that several shipments of gold were taken by boat from the Pakistani port of Karachi to either Iran or the United Arab Emirates and flown by chartered airplanes to Khartoum, the Sudanese capital.
my apologies if this has been posted before

sector@a nation of one#8427009/03/02; 20:05:53

What the Administration has said is...

...insufficient to mount an invasion of a sovereign nation. The president on the other hand may have information that he cannot reveal. For example he may know of the certain placement of a WMD in New York City to be detonated on September 11, 2003.

Could he announce such a thing? Of course he could not. With all the previous warnings that have not resulted in no attacks he would appear as the boy who cried wolf. If he did launch a formal announcement to try and save lives in front of a known threat, the enemy might simply postpone the detonation after chaos reigned for a while. How does one evacuate Manhattan? How does one openly admit that the US can't exactly locate the nuke?

The stated reason for an invasion is not the real reason. There are alternative responses.

Nuclear, biological or chemical missile deilvered deterrence is quite sufficient for the task of "Homeland Defense" against any terrorist move. Simply list the retaliation target cities [Now] and the number of missiles to deliver whatever is delivered to the US. However, the Administration has abandoned 50 years of successful deterrence policy because they want the oil to help mitigate a woeful economy and a weakened Saudi oil partner. It's one or the invasion OR missle retaliation and since we need the oil, we get Door Number One.

One thing is clear, the failure to achieve an internal Republican Party consensus on the Iraqi war will doom it to Viet Nam status as Republican defectors will join with opponents to form a huge wall of protest as the inevitable killing mounts and the region explodes. Imagine house-to-house fighting in Baghdad... Mogadishu-style. Black Hawk Down times 1000. Imagine Syria and Iran joining in.

The US military staff are against this. You can take to the bank that they will foot-drag and try to guarantee the minimum of US casualties. Recall that SECSTATE Powell vowed after Viet Nam never to participate in a war with "limited objectives" and daily Washington operations directives.

Perhaps that is why he is rumored to be leaving the Administration in January 2003.

I really hope there is no WMD attack or any other kind in the near future. I cannot see how the President can hope to prevail and hold the nation's support if all there is to all this is a theft of Saddam's oil. He will be either a martyr or a hero in Islamic eyes.

For the US, this is the definition of a lose-lose situation.

Trapper(No Subject)#8427109/03/02; 20:12:26

$$$327.90$$$ Gold will try hard to break out but I feel the pressure from the cabal will be Whore-endus.I think 333.00 my mid to late September.
To all: I really don't know what to think about this Iraq war. Something is up that I can't see. Everone says we want the oil and yes we do want oil, and at market prices. But we have all we want and there is no reason I can "SEE" why that would change. ME oil is becoming less important as many other sources are pumping lots of it. No one has said we won't sell any more and they all want mid $20.00 pricing which is about right for all. The only reason I see to invade is if we are going to capture the oil which means we move in and live in the desert until it is all used up...a long time. Help me. You all need to explain this thing to me I seem to be lost in space, or there is a hole in my tin hat and they got me. Oh well live small.

steady$$$328.50$$$$$$#8427209/03/02; 20:14:41

Gold is important to me because in the last 18 months trying to figure out gold has lead me on an unbelivable oddisy. One where i learned what an sdr is and that for some reason they have been disapearing. gol dis important to me because it represents a store house of value, a safe place where no one has a claim on it and i have to pay no taxes whatsoever on it while i lay claim to it. Ive learned that everything is related to gold in the financial world even though tptb dont want to say it. Gold is important to me because i cant figure it out and get to the truth because of the obfuscation by the central banks which makes the gold i have even that more valuable to me. Gold is important to me because it led me here and even if it was for a short time i had refuge in the castle.. my lil corner and my seat where i could overhear the noble knights and fair ladys discussing deep financial matters and how to prepare for them.
a nation of onesector (09/03/02; 20:05:53MT - msg#: 84270)#8427309/03/02; 20:24:47

You state the common plea, that it is for the purpose of their own protection that men must be lied to. If there is a bomb in Manhattan, the best thing to do is to tell the people of it. Let them decide for themselves what to do. Better that than to deprive them of their right to life and then say it is for their own sake.
a nation of onehow does one evacuate Manhattan?#8427409/03/02; 20:29:05

Manhattan is evacuated once every day.
a nation of oneThe stated reason for an invasion is not the real reason.#8427509/03/02; 20:30:47

Then why state a reason?
a nation of onesector#8427609/03/02; 20:33:56

I am glad you agree with me.
Max RabbitzEdmund Burke#8427709/03/02; 20:37:29

Thanks Bound Spirit for 84257. Ultimately there is no system that can guarantee civil liberty. It comes down to the morality of the people. In a world full of self-righteous socialist nonsense I'm opting out with gold in hand.
Black BladeMarket Wrap Up – Puplava#8427809/03/02; 20:39:44


God bless the American consumer. For without them, the U.S. economy and other economies around the world would be in deep trouble. The willingness of the American consumer to go deeper into debt to maintain personal consumption has surprised even the most optimistic economists on Wall Street. With mortgage rates at record lows, and the advent of no-points mortgages, the consumer has been able to tap a deep well of money made available by Greenspan's latest bubble: the mortgage and housing market. With the banking system flooded with fresh money and GSE's able to tap the securities markets as money roles into bond funds, the supply of new credit is becoming endless. With interest-only loans, second mortgages at 125% of the value of home, and adjustable-rate mortgages, the ability to extract equity out of a home has created a Fed-induced consumer money machine.

Not to be left out on the refinancing spree led by consumers, corporate debt (which has doubled over the last five years to $3.9 Trillion) is leading to credit stress never imagined before. According to Moody's Investor Services, the nation is in the worst credit stress since the Great Depression. The credit agency cited that $46 billion in loans were in default during the second quarter alone. For the first half of the year, loan defaults were $76.6 billion. Over the last five years, non-financial companies added $446 billion in new debt. These credit stresses could impact the credit derivatives market credit swaps and could potentially unwind and implode.

Black Blade: Tonight the situation has deteriorated even further. It now appears that the markets are in deep trouble and Wall Street has just taken notice. Yes, Abby Jo of Goldman Sachs has not emerged to see if she can see her shadow, and Diane Swonk of Bank One is now singing the blues over a crashing economy instead of touting the unbelievable story of a hunky dory economy with nothing but blue skies as far as the eye can see. I have listened to these (and many other) idiots with utter amazement and had wondered what rock they had been hiding under for the last two years. The signs were and still are so obvious that even three blind men can describe this elephant without even touching it. Meanwhile tonight I have heard yet more of these Wall Street pimps trying to "put lipstick on this pig". I won't go into detail here as I have already attacked this issue in today's "Daily Gold Market Report". It appears that the Gold price guessing contest comes at an "interesting" time as these equities markets and the global economy come under severe stress. It's getting ugly and we have a long way to go before we are through. Grab your seats and hang on for a very rough ride. Oh yeah – that "Bone Pile" is going to grow at a fast and furious pace from here. Layoff announcements have rocketed higher by 46%. Jeez, there is so much negative news to cover! New accenting standards adopted by many companies guarantee lower earnings as no one wants to take any chances – so many companies will start to tell the truth and that will result is a lot of disappointment. As they say – "and the blind shall see". My take? The old Chinese curse about "Interesting Times".

GaleriderImportance of Gold#8427909/03/02; 20:53:27

My frustration with market events of the last year and some financial losses in that arena led me to the one investment that will never lose true value, gold. It is insurance and an inheritance for my sons. I have a profound sense of security as this gale will turn into a long and nasty storm. I greatly appreciate even being allowed in this circle of strategic thinkers. Thanks again. Got Gold and getting more every day.

darkhorse$$$$$ 353.4 $$$$$#8428009/03/02; 20:56:04

...after doing my homework for the past few years, I realize this is the last, best hope for any possibility of taking my kids thru the next several years...whether I'm here or not!

p.s. if TSHTF between now and next Friday, I unofficially double my guess.

Black BladeRe: cyberbat – Japan#8428109/03/02; 20:56:37^N225&d=c&k=c1&a=v&p=s&t=1d&l=on&z=m&q=l

Snippit From Reuters: Tokyo's Nikkei average fell to a 19-year low on Wednesday morning, as megabanks such as Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp. led a broad-based decline after global stock markets plunged on Tuesday. Shares in Japan's megabanks took a battering. Japan's banks have massive shareholdings on their books and falls in stocks threaten to eat into their capital base.

Black Blade: I didn't want to say anything yet as it is only a rumor. However as many are now alluding to it, the rumor is that Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp. has already failed and is only supported by the government and outside interests with huge infusions of cash via the BOJ. This has apparently been kept under wraps (if true) to prevent a run on the bank as well as on other insolvent Japanese banks. That said, the Nikkei is also under pressure as a result of "Monkey See – Monkey Do" in light of the carnage on Wall Street. The global economic collapse will hurt Japan more than most as in effect Japan is nothing more than a large factory on two islands. They import raw materials, assemble trinkets, and export finished goods for export. The problem now is that Americans and Europeans are finally cutting back on spending as revealed by lackluster retail sales. Add to that the threat of a major west coast longshoreman's strike with Japanese goods piling up on the docks. It is a very ugly work in progress right now. The Japanese are scared to death as they should be. The "currency war" went very badly as they only squandered $billions worth of yen in a fruitless effort to weaken the yen against the US dollar. They just did not realize how bad the US economy really is, but then even US investors and Wall Street missed it too.

sector@a nation of one I agree with you...#8428209/03/02; 21:06:33

...I'm just much more cynical about people who hold...

...or THINK they hold...absolute power.

They mislead because they lack courage to break free from their masters.

The Administration obfuscates because we let them. Like the Russians who "Pretended to work while the politburo pretended to pay".

Black Blade is correct that we will have a very "interesting" week. NKK225 already down 130...testing 9000.

Black BladeAsian Markets In Retreat#8428309/03/02; 21:09:18

Asian markets are in full retreat again tonight. It appears that the carnage has carried right on through the trading sessions in the US and Europe into trading in Asia. In light of events in Japan and the revelations of problems coming to light in the banking sector, I would not be surprised to see precious metals buying take off in coming days as Japanese investors seek safety. Who could blame them? They more than anyone have seen rising unemployment and changes in business practices deemed inconcievable just a few years ago. It was once thought that a job in a good solid Japanese corporation was a job for life and a distinctive honor. How times have changed as unemployment is rising and the economic depression of the last several years threatens to get much worse. I still remember the descriptions of the elderly Japanese woman srounging through the remains of her home in Kobe after the big earthquake and finding her life savings in a box. The currency and papers were burned up and destroyed but her gold bullion was intact. I suspect that many Japanese will be headed toward the bullion shops in coming days in a repeat of the latest "New Japanese Gold Rush".

- Black Blade

a nation of oneThey mislead because they lack courage to break free from their masters.#8428409/03/02; 21:12:28

And their masters do not make it easy for them to break away. They make it as difficult as possible.
a nation of onesector#8428509/03/02; 21:15:51

Yes I think so. I am very much looking forward to September and October.
G-khanMy post about testing Silver at Wal-Mart#8428609/03/02; 21:17:13

I read the post that phoney Sterling Silver was being sold at Wal-Mart! I went out and tested about 20 of the Sterling Silver chains at Wal-Mart as soon as I read it. This was at the St. Cloud MN store. I can say that all 20 or so chains seemed real and were not attracted to the magnet, with the exception of a few of the fasteners on the chains. I posted my results here as this is where I first read it.

Since that post and the one on my home web site I have recieved a number of emails from others that say they have tested some and they were attracted to the magnets and one of the emails also said one of his Gold chains also was attracted. So for the record I believe this is happening and I just went to a store with the real thing. I am more bullish Silver than anyone I know.

Supply/Demand is screaming BUY ME on Silver..

U.S. Government had 6 billion ounces before WWII and now has none. Price of Silver will break the old record of 52.50

Do your own research, I suggest to all to get a magnet and check around when you are out shopping.

Paper is on fire, where you going to go? Silver and Gold!

Peace to all on this wonderfull site - I am sorry as it seems I jumped the gun after checking just one store - I will check some more out..

What investment out there has the most upside potential with the lowest downside risk and is becoming more rare with each day that passes? Silver is my answer and that is why!

Silver is King

Black BladeFactory Growth Stalls, Job Cuts Rise #8428709/03/02; 21:25:38


NEW YORK (Reuters) - U.S. manufacturing barely grew for a second straight month in August while companies hiked the number of planned layoffs, reports said on Tuesday, stoking worries the weak economic recovery may stagnate more in coming months. "We've lost a lot of momentum," said Norbert Ore, chair of the ISM business survey committee, of the decline in new orders. Ore said that another month showing new orders close to the 50 level would indicate "real softness" in the second half of the year, but stressed that the August survey did not by itself suggest a coming contraction in manufacturing. Layoffs continued at factories, extending a trend seen since mid-2000 even as the employment index edged up to 45.8 in August from 45.0 in July. Manufacturers, some of the hardest hit by the recession and tepid recovery, have eliminated 1.8 million jobs in the past two years. According to the Challenger Gray, the current pace of job cuts throughout the economy is on track to make 2002 the second highest year for layoff announcements in the 13 years since it began tracking employment data. Only last year's job cuts would be greater. "As companies wait for this elusive rebound, they will continue to eliminate jobs to preserve whatever profits they have been able to achieve," said John Challenger, chief executive of Challenger Gray.

Black Blade: What an ugly picture this is. I have been hammering away at this scenario since March 2000. Actually, I had expected the negative scenario since the latter half of 1999 when I said that Dubya could be our generations "Herbert Hoover". That may yet happen. I suspect that we will be in a military conflict by the next presidential election to nail down a second term if the economy is toast. Anyway, I think that the "New Great Depression" is a lock. I and others seem to believe that we are in a secular bear market that could last several years. I expect that it will be up to Alan Greenspan and the Fed to cut interest rates again to keep the real estate bubble somewhat inflated. The problem is that AG and the boys are running out of ammo (like Gen. Armstrong Custer - surrounded and only 7 bullets left!). If the real estate bubble pops, then "Check Mate". Oh yeah, today we hear that personal bankruptcies have hit a new all time record high! "Interesting Times" indeed.

As always, get out of debt (at least as soon as possible), stash enough cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities.

Bulldog$$$319.2$$$#8428809/03/02; 21:53:40

I have been a "goldbug" for most of my adult life and now I have no stocks, only physical. I do not know how long the gold manipulation game can be played, but I believe the end is at hand. It is hard to imagine that I will ever have to part with any of my gold, but if times dictate, then it may be necessary to sell/trade some. It has always been my purpose to use physical gold as insurance but I primarily buy it to pass on to my children and they to theirs. Gold maples have found their way to neices and nephews for wedding presents. In my local paper, each time gold goes on a mini-run, there is always an article downplaying the importance of gold. That reinforces my will to acquire more. If so much effort is being orchestrated to depress the price of a commodity, imagine what the value will be when the market is allowed to fluctuate freely. THis is a no-brainer, gold get you some.
rsjacksrCONTEST#8428909/03/02; 22:36:21

$$$$$$$ 339.00 $$$$$$$
Gold doesn't need a ME war to jangle the already nervous public. All we need and what we have are: a contracting labor market, a falling stock market, falling earnings, a falling dollar and mutual fund redemption. That's why I believe in real money. Gold. Get you some.

Mr GreshamEchoes#8429009/03/02; 23:06:15

From Sharefin's comment on Miningweb: "The physical has been


& sold many times over "


"I believe that there is 100% chance that the price of physical will disassociate itself from paper promises..."

No, I don't think it's FOA, but maybe I'm just hearing a whisper of a return (???)

WoodieGold contest $$$$ 313.3 $$$$#8429109/03/02; 23:41:11

Although a relative newcomer to the gold investment scene, I am quickly coming to realize the most important aspect (for me) of owning physical gold. I don't think of it just like any other type of investment. I don't track its daily or monthly movements, and think of buying/selling based on the price. Its purpose is to provide me with financial security and the peace of mind that goes along with it.
WoodieShanghai Gold Exchange#8429209/03/02; 23:51:35

Has anyone heard any recent news about when the Shanghai exchange is planning to open? Or did I miss it, and is it already open? I will be in Shanghai in 2 weeks, and was hoping to swing by and see it in action.

Thanks, Woodie

Black BladeAnother hedge book bites the dust #842939/4/02; 00:09:31


NEW YORK ­­ Randgold Resources [RRUS], which recently debuted on Nasdaq to complement a London Stock Exchange listing, has closed out 148,500 ounces of gold call options.

Black Blade: Another miner bails out of hedges.

Black BladeAsia Awash In Red#842949/4/02; 00:27:20

Asian markets are negative and Euro markets are staring off sluggishly in the positive. It still looks like it could get "entertaining" as the markets absorb "grim" data.

- Black Blade

Black BladeEuropean Markets Start Off Negative#842969/4/02; 01:28:39

The Euro markets start off negative but recovers from lows.
Black BladeSudan denies receiving al Qaida gold#842979/4/02; 01:39:25

WASHINGTON, Sep 03, 2002 (United Press International via COMTEX) -- Sudan's acting ambassador in Washington Tuesday strongly denied a report Tuesday that Osama bin Laden's supporters had recently shipped substantial quantities of gold to Sudan in a move to secure Khartoum as a financial center for his al Qaida network. "This story is nonsense," the Deputy Chief of Mission for Sudan in Washington, Abdulbagi Kabeir, told United Press International.

Black Blade: Interesting.

KnallgoldAny comments about this post by DavidJenkins (GE 03:15)#842989/4/02; 03:43:08

"Readers may not have paid particular attention to Jay Taylor's latest report on Gold Eagle Editorial
to quote from Mr Taylors letter dealing with gold.

"While I was in London I spoke to a very talented man who works with Frank Veneroso. He told me it was his speculative view that the Central Banks have already granted the bullion banks (named as defendants in Reggie Howe's lawsuit) the right to repay them not in gold but in paper money. This would then provide more time before "the fecal matter hits the rotary oscillator" in the gold markets.

Unfair as that would be to Americans and citizens of other countries that may have lent gold out, it would be consistent with the dishonest handling of our national gold treasury by our policy makers. I think the hunch of my English friend is most likely correct.
end of quote
Think about it. "

koala bearPrice guessing competition#842999/4/02; 04:08:54


I have three reasons why I like gold.
1) It is honest money. No banker or politician can print more of it.
2) It is an inheritance for my children.
3) The other reason I like gold is because I get a ‘warm-fuzzy’ feeling knowing that my meager stash will [hopefully] add to the suffering of the bullion banks when TSHTF. A pox upon the bullion banks!

koala bearatt. Denis#843009/4/02; 04:12:16

Denis, stop wasting so much time reading this forum.
BoxmanContest#843019/4/02; 04:27:17


My family is to precious to me to take any chances that they would have to try and survive by scrounging in dumps, like what has befallen so many of the Argentinians, when our financial system implodes. I can do without a bigger fancier house, car, and other window dressing, and use my extra frn's to acquire the ultimate insurance, Gold (and some silver also).

Gold Standard$$$$324.10$$$$#8430209/04/02; 05:02:31

IMO, I reckon that TPTB are so scared of the POG/POS and POO all heading towards a SHTF status, that the PPT are prepared for a massive final assault on the markets past the blinkered eyes of the CTFC so as to ensure that the POTUS's dream of the NWO will come to fruition, despite it being yet another SNAFU.

God I hate acronyms.

Aureo SpeedwagonGold will still be money after Nanotechnology becomes a reality#8430309/04/02; 05:12:18


What Is Money?

Assuming some form of physical specie will still be useful in a nanotechnology-rich society, what form should it take? We recognize that money generally serves two well-known primary functions: A store of value, and a medium of transaction. As a result, we can postulate that in the ideal form:

1. Money should be an efficient store of value, having high value per unit volume or per unit mass.

2. Money should be available in small enough physical sizes to be readily portable, even in the largest denominations, by human users, thus facilitating exchange transactions and specie warehousing.

3. Money should be physically stable for a duration of time spanning at least the maximum intended period of transactions and/or the maximum value storage horizon.

4. Money should not be inherently physically dangerous to its owner (e.g. radioactive, poisonous, explosive, etc.).

But money must also be trustworthy, which has several additional implications:

5. Money should be difficult to counterfeit.

6. Money should be difficult or impossible to replicate at a cost less than its cost of manufacture even by the most efficient means possible. That is, production costs (aka "intrinsic value") should approximate face value; seigniorage should be minimal to nil.

7. Money should be immediately recognizable as the intended denomination of the intended specie. Once revealed, the intrinsic value of the specie should be difficult to disguise. If unrevealed, the specie should still be compact enough to hide (from thieves or tax authorities) on one's person or elsewhere; see (2) above.

8. Money should be self-validating by its own physical form, and not rely upon any legalistic governmental imprimatur, easily-altered surface stamping, or monopoly minting authority to partake of value (e.g., no "fiat" specie).

In a nanotechnology-intensive world, any form of physical currency whose value depends solely upon the physical arrangement of common atoms must likely fail one or more of the above criteria. For example, today's paper money and base-metal coins are easily counterfeited. A perfect replica hundred-dollar bill of mass ~1 gram can be manufactured by Drexler's ~1 kg desktop manufacturing appliance at the rate of one banknote per second, an output providing the operator with an income of $360,000 per hour. It may take 30 years to catch up to deci-trillionaire Bill Gates, but then again, the counterfeiter can always buy more manufacturing appliances. The desktop machine can also produce 5 carats/sec of already-cut investment-grade diamonds, reproducing the entire 1995 world demand for polished stone (19 million carats) in 44 days. Goodbye, DeBeers.


Coins made of gold, the rarest of the traditional precious metals in the Earth's crust, are a step in the right direction because gold atoms are inherently somewhat scarce. This scarcity may hold true even in a world of abundant nanotechnology. Consider: One of every 3 billion atoms in ordinary crustal rock is a gold atom, or 3.1 ppb (parts-per-billion) by weight. All natural gold atoms are of one isotope, Au197. A ~10 kg nanotech desktop refinery wholly dedicated to sorting gold atoms from crustal rock, perhaps employing ~1 kg of the input ordering and reagent preparation subsystems found in Drexler's original manufacturing appliance, could in theory sort ~1 microgram/sec, which is a net output of about 1 troy ounce of gold per year. To achieve this paltry output, the desktop refinery must process 16,000 tons/yr of rock (~100 cm3/sec) and the unit draws about 1 megawatt of continuous power. So you get about $300/yr worth of gold, but the energy costs you $900,000/yr at today's $0.10/Kw-hr electric rates. Cost breakeven occurs if the crustal rock can be preconcentrated in gold content, using bulk chemical processes, but this may be uneconomical and hardly seems worth the trouble.

Even diverting the entire present-day human energy consumption of ~10e13 watts, already approaching the hypsithermal limit for Earth, exclusively to nanotech gold extraction from crustal rock would produce only ~300 tons/yr of new gold. This won't seriously disrupt international gold prices, because world gold production already averages ~1500 tons/yr using 5,000-10,000 ppb ores, and because a total of ~100,000 tons of gold has been extracted throughout history, most of it still extant, worth ~$1 trillion at today's prices.

Perhaps you are thinking that it might make more sense to do a little environmental remediation while reworking the mining industry tailings, which are typically ~1,000 ppb gold, and extracting all of the remaining precious metal. Working on the richer tailings rather than raw crustal rock, our nanotech desktop refinery could produce ~300 troy ounces of pure gold per year, worth $100,000/yr at current market prices. Unfortunately, the energy cost is still $900,000/yr at today's $0.10/Kw-hr electric rates. If future energy rates are a lot cheaper than today's rates, well and good. But note that only ~100,000,000 tons of new mine tailings are piled up annually, with each year's leavings containing ~100 tons of unextracted gold. Even if completely extracted, all of the gold in these tailings would still be far less than the total aboveground worldwide stockpile of the metal. What about seawater extraction? Gold is ~100 times less plentiful in seawater than in the crust.

The bottom line is that at ~$200/cm3, gold at least minimally satisfies our eight criteria for an ideal tangible nanomoney. Its rareness will not be decisively altered by nanotechnology.

NEMO me impune lacessit$$$$362.30$$$$#8430409/04/02; 05:21:24

Why I am holding gold so dear ?
(This rhyme is quite revealing.)
It takes away that frightening fear,
that´s opposite to healing.
It gives me freedom - gives me calm.
It shines so lovely in my palm.
It makes me King - when dealing.


misetichANALYSIS-Stocks just one of time bombs ticking at Japan banks#8430509/04/02; 05:23:24


"Falling stocks just bring to light the excessive risks banks are saddled with," said Hiroshi Hosoda at Rating and Investment Information, a domestic credit rating agency.

"This adversely hits their already weakened capital and leaves banks with less freedom to cope with other problems."
If the Nikkei average falls towards 8,000, capital adequacy ratios at top banks could breach eight percent, the minimum required for globally operating banks, analysts said.

"I don't see a crisis as defined as capital adequacy ratios falling below eight percent," said an analyst at a foreign brokerage who declined to be named. "But meeting the requirement and being a sound bank is an entirely different issue."

To beef up capital, the banks are issuing subordinated bonds or preferred securities that cannot be converted into shares.

This brings its own risks.

Most of the buyers are life insurance firms, and the banks in return have given them subordinated loans to help their finances.

Under existing guidelines, loans to life insurers are categorised as healthy, so banks do not need to set aside provisions, regardless of an insurer's financial condition -- and many of them are in difficulty.

Tick...Tick...Tick... -

Got gold?

Gold StandardWar against Iraq, and why we will not win......#8430609/04/02; 05:26:37

This is my opinion only, but hey! That's why we have a Forum!

As far as I can see, since Richard Butler (no relative of Ted's, although Smedley Butler (1881-1940) could well be Ted's grand-father) was turfed out of Iraq 3 or 4 years ago, all of the Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) being gleefully created by Saddam Hussein's henchmen would all have been relocated to hospital, bomb-shelter and pre-school basements.

The only way the Bush Hawks could successfully cleanse Iraq of WMD's is, unfortunately, to bomb the crap out of the the aforesaid hospitals, pre-schools et al.

It is not going to be pretty, is it?

misetich$$$$331.30$$$$#8430709/04/02; 05:28:30

Gold offers the highest financial comfort, safety in the a crumbling financial house of cards
misetichPlanned job cutbacks rise in August - Firms expect to eliminate 118,067#8430809/04/02; 05:56:28


By Bloomberg News, 9/4/2002

WASHINGTON - US job-cut announcements rose 46 percent in August from the previous month, according to a private survey.
The number of disclosed job cuts rebounded from a 14-month low reached in July. Consolidated Freightways Corp., the third-biggest US trucker, yesterday said it's ceasing operations and firing 15,500 workers.

''Job creation remains very low, capital spending is still virtually nonexistent, and there is nothing really moving to give this economy traction,'' John Challenger, the outplacement company's chief executive, said in a statement.
''As companies wait for this elusive rebound, they will continue to eliminate jobs to preserve whatever profits they have been able to achieve,'' Challenger said.

Third Qtr pre-announcements will bring further job cuts -

Got gold?

misetichThe perils of ignoring bubbles#8430909/04/02; 06:06:38

Now that the bubble has burst and tax collection has collapsed, legislators are stuck with unpopular alternatives. Do they raise taxes, cut spending or increase debt? With the economy sputtering along, the first two options look pretty bad. But borrowing is unavailable to almost everyone bar the federal government in Washington - and even there it is unclear how wise it is. The internet bubble created these problems and they surely involve hundreds of billions of dollars.

Underfunding of Social Security, the US public pension system, has been a problem for years. And now we learn that the stock market boom and bust has created trouble for the private system. When high stock returns drive the accumulations in these private funds above the level that actuaries say they need, the sponsoring companies are allowed to make withdrawals. These "negative" pension contributions increase company profits, driving stock prices even higher.

Needless to say, a lot of this went on during the late 1990s. With the stock market falling, these pensions have become underfunded and so companies are now forced to put the money back in - money that, if it had not been for the bubble, would never have been withdrawn in the first place. Today, some say the size of the problem is about $100bn.
They thought they had fount Utopia - government, big business,central bankers - investors -

Where will this trail end?

Got gold?

misetichGoodbye, Surplus. Hello, Train Wreck- #8431009/04/02; 06:53:02


More realistically, the nation is looking at annual deficits for the foreseeable future and increases in the national debt through the decade. Goldman Sachs economist John Youngdahl sees yearly deficits in the $200 billion range through 2007. Others, including Ian Shepherdson, chief U.S. economist for consultants High Frequency Economics, forecasts deficits of $300 billion-plus at least through 2004.

THE COMING CRUNCH. Even according to the CBO forecasts, the national debt won't get much lower than $3 trillion. If the Wall Streeters are right, it'll balloon to well over $4 trillion. And that wistful hope of getting the debt to zero? Gone with the wind. That, by the way, means the government will have to spend almost $2 trillion over the next 10 years just to pay interest on its bonds.
Are interest costs added on?
Are off-budget items taken in consideration?

Got gold?

SpartacusUS Congress Wants To Have A Say In Decision On Iraq #8431109/04/02; 07:24:41

WASHINGTON (AP)--President Bush has promised to consult Congress before waging war in Iraq. He hasn't said whether he will explicitly ask Congress' approval to dispatch troops to depose Saddam, the Iraqi president.
Sen. Patrick J. Leahy, D-Vt., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, is drawing a line in the sand. "The administration should not expect to commit American troops to war with a wink and a nod to Congress," he said last week.

"There should be a full debate and a vote," Leahy said. "That is what the Constitution prescribes, and that is what the American people expect."

MO VER MEG$314.90$#8431209/04/02; 07:34:44

Gold provides a degree stability in tumultuous times. Besides, the Greenbacks look like monopoly money.
perform(No Subject)#8431309/04/02; 07:34:49

As a contrarian investor in general and a goldbug in particular. "Even a man with one eye can see a mountain". Now where did I hear that before ?.

WaveriderTopix Drop Raises Concern Japan May Have to Aid Banks#8431409/04/02; 07:35:09

"A drop in Japan's Topix Index to below 900 for the first time since December 1984 is raising the prospect that stock losses will force the government to rescue banks for the third time in four years, investors said. The Topix index fell 2 percent to 886.39 at the 3 p.m. close of trading in Tokyo. The average capital-adequacy ratio for Japan's seven biggest lenders would be 8.97 percent with the Topix at 900, according to HSBC Securities (Japan) Ltd. banking analyst Hironari Nozaki. The average would fall about 1 percentage point for each 100-point drop in the Topix, meaning an index decline to 800 would push it below the 8 percent minimum for banks with overseas operations.

The government may have a hard time coming up with much money. The national debt is projected to reach 140 percent of gross domestic product by March, the biggest burden in the industrialized world. ``The slide also raises concerns over a possible financial system meltdown and that's reflected in the banks' share prices,'' said Tetsuo Inoue, who manages about 10 billion yen in Japanese equities at UAM Japan Inc."

SpartacusJapan#8431509/04/02; 07:36:59

--Former chief cabinet secretary Hidenao Nakagawa, known as a close aide to President Junichiro Koizumi, said the government should ask the Resolution and Collection Corp (RCC) buy bad loans from banks and inject public funds into banks as an additional anti-deflation measure.

"The current sharp decline in Japanese share prices has been reflecting the state of the ailing economy and predicts the future of the economy.

"Therefore, it is high time the government should take drastic measures to stop deflationary economic conditions," he told a business meeting.

"Especially at stake is how to resolve banks' bad loans problem, which is working against the flow of capital in the economy.

"Prime Minister Koizumi should undertake a policy measure to let the Resolution and Collection Corp buy the 52.4 trln yen in banks' bad loans at market value, which means the RCC should buy bad loans at 30-40% (of the book value)," he added.

In addition, he said: "When banks sell their bad loans some losses may be booked. In that case, the government should inject public funds into those banks which face the threat of a low capital base.

"Such a measure should be debated at the next extraordinary parliamentary session scheduled for this fall."

Citing data from the Financial Services Agency, Nakagawa said the outstanding balance of bad loans at banks jumped to 52.4 trln yen as of end-March this year from 38 trln the previous year.--

TevyeContest#8431609/04/02; 08:02:40

$$$ 316.00 $$$

On the one hand, Gold is a reliable store of value in this life; On the other hand, in the next life, Gold is pavement. Make the right preparations for life.

Gold. Its Tradition!


Galearis@ R. Powell & G-khan#8431709/04/02; 08:07:28

on the sterling scam

Rich, thanks for your kind words of support of yesterday. It is very important that the news of this thing gets out. We start on a few forums and it may prompt some government probes and response from the mainstream media! As an individual I do my part and only ask others to verify what I have found. We must always try, as individuals, to keep our society honest. It is a duty.

Rich has it exactly correct about my position on this "sterling" jewelry problem. Others have to. This is one of my interpretations for what is behind this situation, and I very much think that the concept has passed through the mind of Ted Butler as a speculation too. It is expressed in (part of) an email I received from my brother this morning:
One of the guys in the office overheard M. P. [the owner of a silver broker] talking on the phone about phoney sterling jewelry. M. was out of the office at the time I called in, so I had no opportunity to discuss this with him, but you have obviously made quite an impression on real world silver market perceptions.
Obviously, pm fraud is widespread, both in gold and silver, and yes, I think this is the way
the market is handling the deficit. If the vast majority of silver jewelry is now fake, this would just about eliminate the supply deficit, and explains why those COMEX stockpiles sit
stubbornly at 107 Moz. Too bad for the CABAL, you can't use plated silver in photography.
When the public finds out about the jewelry fraud, they will just stop buying it, and the
CABAL wins again. Melt all small bars into 1000 ozers, and eliminate silver as a jewelry
metal, and you have eliminated a huge chunk of non-industrial demand (jewelry and investment demand).
Now you see from whence I also come.

Best regards,


silvercollectorFrom Headline News..........#8431809/04/02; 08:26:49

"Bush won't attack without approval from Congress"

What does this mean and does it lower the chances of Iraq/US war?

Buena FeAureo Speedwagon (09/04/02; 05:12:18MT - msg#: 84303)#8431909/04/02; 08:55:21

Ha Ha,
Thanks for the essay, what a hoot! A great argument for gold as money.

a nation of onesocial security fact#8432009/04/02; 09:44:14

In yesterday's mail I received "Your Social Security Statement," detailing my projected benefits. On the fourth page it contains the following statement: "...That amount [my actual benefit] may differ from the estimates below because ... The laws governing benefit amounts may change, because, by 2041, the payroll taxes collected will be enough to pay only about 73 percent of benefits owed."

In other words, it has already been decided that monetary deficiencies in the Social Security program will be fixed by not meeting present benefits obligations.

When it actually starts happening, I wonder what percentage of Americans will openly recognize it as a 'default.'

De RoninQuestions about platinum#8432109/04/02; 10:38:00

I'm predominately an energy trader but I do have a few precious metals questions related to platinum.

I have heard the platinum is an intrical component for extracting hydrogen on most prevalent fuel cell processes. How and why? If we make a push towards fuel cell technology, will it significantly increase the demand for platinum? Can the platinum be reused or is it more of a catalytic process? How much current platinum production from the CIS? BB & others. Are you as bullish on platinum as you are on gold?

sectorLandmark 'down' day for NYSE#8432209/04/02; 10:38:07

Intense selling to continue, says noted researcher

By Thom Calandra,
Last Update: 11:05 AM ET Sept. 4, 2002

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- A noted researcher on Wednesday confirmed the first levels of panic selling in the U.S. stock market since April 2001.

Noted researcher confirms panic selling on NYSE

The selling Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange drove stock indexes down more than 4 percent in a day. Paul F. Desmond said Tuesday's activity qualified as a so-called 90 percent downside day -- an indication the worst in the stock market is far from over.

Desmond, president of researcher Lowry's Reports, says 92.2 percent of total volume on the NYSE Tuesday was negative. Total points lost among the stocks that traded reached 94.2 percent.

"This is strong evidence that the July low was only a temporary market bottom, that investors are just beginning to panic and that the broad market is headed for significant new lows," Desmond said in his strongest statement to date about the direction of the equity market.

Desmond is held in high regard by technical analysts. His work on bear-market bottoms earned him the Charles Dow Award for research this year. Desmond's research, going back to 1933, shows the stock market virtually always undergoes prolonged stretches of intense selling before a bear-market bottom is formed.

Desmond has long argued that most investors are refusing to acknowledge the fiscal pain they have endured in this, the third year of falling stock-market indexes. Acceptance of their dire financial straits and panic selling go hand in hand, he says from his Florida office.

Desmond identifies such selling by gauging negative volume on points lost. "History shows that major market bottoms in the past have been preceded by an average of five 90 percent downside days before the final lows," he says.

From November 1973 to December 1974, 14 of these 90 percent downside days occurred. Desmond's studies indicate no stock market can launch a meaningful and lasting rally without the horrible, nerve-jangled selling that comes with a full-blown panic. Such wholesale selling eventually ignites demand for low-priced securities. See: Red writing on the wall.

Nasdaq on Tuesday failed to exceed the threshold for panic selling. Negative volume reached 94.1 percent Tuesday but points lost equaled just 88.5 percent. "We expect to see several 90 percent downside days on Nasdaq before the start of a sustained uptrend," Desmond told on Wednesday.

Nasdaq's main index lost 3.9 percent Tuesday vs. a 4.1 percent loss for the Dow Jones Industrial Average and a 4.7 percent loss for the NYSE Composite Index (NYA: news, chart, profile)

Desmond in his research saw no signs during the September 2001 decline, or afterward, that investors had truly thrown in the towel on the stock market. In other words, there were no NYSE days when 90 percent of all trading activity was marked by falling prices for the securities exchanged and 90 percent of prices were negative, as measured by points lost. The last such day came April 3, 2001, when 90.8 percent of NYSE volume was in the red and 90.7 percent of all points gained or lost were in the minus column

Desmond's research flies in the face of many Wall Street brokerages and economists, who say this summer's selling represented a buying opportunity for long-suffering investors. The veteran researcher's findings point to a prolonged, and painful, healing process for stocks, which Desmond regards as still expensive by historic standards.

The silver lining in Desmond's findings is that such panic-laden sales "are typically followed by snap-back rallies lasting from two to seven days before the downtrend resumes." The snap-backs, alas, are meant as exit points for those who no longer can tolerate their long-standing stock-market losses.

"Such rallies usually provide a good opportunity for investors to sell into strength," says Desmond, who regards Tuesday's NYSE activity as a landmark day. The October 1987 stock market crash led to numerous 90 percent downside days that eventually triggered bargain-hunting by patient investors.

About the panic selling. It's the mutual funds who are panicing.They see no end to the outflows and very soon they will lose what slim cash they currently have [Thanks to their idiotic "All equities" policies]. That will be a watershed moment because the funds will be forced to sell in real-time with redenptions. In other words, the funds will lose any selling time-buffer they had thus exaggerating the DOW's actions. Paniced sellers call to redeem - Funds sell the stocks at the same time.

About the war. Large commercial ships carrting battle tanks are being loaded and shipping for the ME. This hardly sounds like Bush plans to "consult" with Congress.

Belgian@ Knallgold (J. Tailer's London friend)#8432409/04/02; 10:42:53

If (big if) any central bank has been unloading (selling/leasing) reserve-Gold, physically, from its vaults...this CB knows the possible, very, dangerous consequence of not seeing it back in its vaults, in physical form. The same goes for forward selling of underground Gold or any private individual who should give his/her physical Gold out of his/her hands. Whatever the purpose was/is, for giving one's physical out of hand...the future settlement of the deal will mostly turn out much differently as espected.

I've come to the point where I'm NOT interested anymore as to how CBs/Miners/BBs or private Gold, will settle their Gold trade ! I'm only interested in "who" wants to "hold" "how much" physical Gold and for "how long" ?
In other words : Who puts the confetti (digits) into question, today/tomorrow, and how serious is the real depreciation of any fiat so far ?

For as long as CBs do have physical Gold in their vaults as a reserve...they will be forced (inclined to) to use this tangible reserve, somehow, sometime. It even doesn't matter that much of how many tonnes are left. As soon as fiat distrust gains the upperhand...Gold will be valued accordingly.

Postfactum, CBs will claim, that they did everything they could, even selling Gold from its reserves, to protect the citizen's currency. Bullion banks might even be praised (and rewarded) for their co-operation on fiat's trust-campaign. All this regardless of how everything will be settled at the day of final reckoning. The day that more and more people (Giants or lilliputans) decide by " basic instinct" that the confetti is no longer to be trusted and that moronic priced physical Gold becomes a very wise alternatif. Making "available" Gold scarce and forcing all Gold-managing parties to settle their trades in one way or another.

If bullion banks or miners or central banks, want to settle
their contracts, exclusively, with fiat...they must have that fiat or able to generate it ! Find billions of fiat or tonnes of Gold ! If not, default, or/and, be eaten by your creditor. 3.000 tonnes of underground, forward sold, Gold *must* be mined or bought on the market and X-tonnes of vault-gone CB Gold must be returned or paid for or bought in the market. None of these settlements are possible when a POG rising trend should attract physical accumulation of Gold. Miners don't have any money to buy Gold in the market and bullion banks have either. If CBs accept fiat instead of physical Gold...underground Gold will smell *the* opportunity of being in command on the conditions for returning (mining) the Gold. The Giants will smell this too and will add pressure by increasing the POG with accumulating physical (making it scarcer).

All the above only changes (shortens not prolonges) the timing of the final unwinding of the Gold drama. But makes no difference to the fundamental growing distrust of the confetti's intrinsic worth.

If the Japanese banking domino goes down, the global banking crisis, (read : run) might well take a temptatif start. This unresolved banking crisis since 1995 (Japanese bank run à la 1929) could very probably become a *high profile* thing with a lot of scaring noice, attracting undiscrete/unwanted, attention on US's banks. Add on this a fiat settlement for reserve Gold...and kaboom, POG panics and gaps up and away, whatever the settlement than might be.

Those forces who decide on POG's behavior are holding the key to unlock Gold and let it be FREE. The coming POG rise will be completely different in nature as that what we have seen in the past 21 years (1980>2001). Official OR private Gold will decide on fiat's future role and importance.
That's why Gold has been locked (is locked) after all. W've come to the stage of impossible "in-between" solution, being a bit more of fiat depreciation and a bit higher POG (400$/600$/1.200$). No ! This time it is going to be a dramatic re-emergence of Gold into the center of the monetary spectrum. We must not exclude that CB(s) even might confiscate part or the complete 3.000 tonnes of "deep storage" Gold, down the mine's shafts. This if the bulk of these 3.000 tonnes of underground gold can't possibly be mined anymore (profitably) in the context of an hyperinflation.

Everything is always possible ! Gold advocates only have to worry about the public's remaining confidence in confetti and other paper (bonds/stocks).
When the gold-industry (WGC) suggested to make Gold more available with the means of gold-bonds (paper-gold), they admitted indirectly to be co-operative with all fiat advocates and defenders !!! The rumor that CBs should be prepared to accept fiat (settlement) for their lost (?) goldreserves is more of the same fiat-advocacy !!!


Regards to you Herr Knallgold.

Gandalf the Whitesome PRELIMINARY answers for Sir De Ronin #8432509/04/02; 10:54:23

(09/04/02; 10:38:00MT - msg#: 84321)

Questions about platinum

I have heard the platinum is an intrical component for extracting hydrogen on most prevalent fuel cell processes. How and why?
**** A Catalyst makes a reaction "speed up", or react faster, WITHOUT changing or consuming the catalyst !
Catalysts are RARE EARTH components !!

If we make a push towards fuel cell technology, will it significantly increase the demand for platinum?
****** Maybe ! Depends on the demand for other uses.
One would think that demand for Automobile exhaust converters may not need the consumption of the past.

Can the platinum be reused or is it more of a catalytic process?
******* Fuzzy question here ! Pt is not consumed and may be recovered when it is used as a catalyst !

How much current platinum production from the CIS?
****** I do not know !

Are you as bullish on platinum as you are on gold ?
****** BIG, NO !!! I do not know of any Central Banks that hold Pt as a WEALTH equivalent !

Now we await BETTER answers from the EXPERTS !

HenriContest Entry#8432609/04/02; 10:58:18


Gold shines nicely when polished and makes me feel good when I hold it....did I mention that later someone else may be willing to give me many more pieces of fiat for it than I gave to get it?

ha_tey_o$$$$$$ 328.10 $$$$$$#8432709/04/02; 11:15:13

I've been a lurker on this site for a long time and studying the gold issue for many years. But I only made an investment in bullion early this year. My reason for believing that gold is an important investment is that it is the ultimate real money and that my fear that the current pyramid of paper is in jeopardy has makes gold the perfect way to preserve and protect my family's savings.
sectorPOG Mini Launch to $315.95 #8432809/04/02; 11:32:43

Like a spike

See if it holds thru the COMEX close.
goldenpeaceContest#8432909/04/02; 11:36:15

As the Cabal's situation deteriorates, they are barely hanging on by their fingernails to a critical level.
Snowballing equity losses have forced the Fed to add lots of liquidity to the banks to jolly all the martkets along, but the Dollar and Bonds have "gotten wind " of it and are starting to tank, putting lots more pressure on JPM interest rate derivatives. Gold derivatives will fail in the fortnight after this contest ends.As for gold, it seems its the only power that isn't lying to the American people just now.
Bowing to the boards virtue....

old gold$$$$341.7$$$$#8433009/04/02; 11:40:02

I own gold because it holds a nonperishable value, it is a true store of wealth. Gold has been THE true measure of wealth for thousands of years, and in todays world of fiat money, gold will shine it's light so bright that the "many" will realize what a "few" already know.
Belgian@ De Ronin#8433109/04/02; 11:40:25

Wim Duisenbergh (ECB) : Gold will remain an important asset in monetary policy. For obvious reasons, he couldn't say : Gold is the ultimate monetary reserve !
Platinum is an industrial commodity, fully controled by South Africa and Russia ! Rule of thumb was (!) that Pt always was priced as follows : POG + 100$ per ounce. This for the time that Gold was considered, only, as a commodity as well. This *commodity* relationship (Au/Pt) has been broken since 1995 !!! Co-incidence ? No Sir ! So, platinum now lives his own life. Forget about fuel-cells for the time being. There's an oil-war going on there. We will exhaust the existing "cheap" oil reserves before any serious alternative will be put in practice. (No Bush in Johannesburg-!) . Central Banks have no oil reserves and therefore have to go to war for it. Ferdinand Lips gave us his book on the history of the Gold wars. This as an answer to your question if I'm as bullish on Pt as on Au ! No I am definitely not !

Recently, Pt, failed to confirm a very bullish signal on its 560$ LT-resistance line. But in French we say, reculer pour mieux sauter (one step back to jump further). Since Pt is dominated by an oligarchy, its price will always be nicely managed at "their" convience.

Some funny math : Pt = 540$. Therefore commodity gold (not monetary Gold) should be priced 440$ (past rule of thumb).
Another (past) relation between POG and POO was a factor 13 to 15x. POO 28$ x 15 = 420$, pretty close in line with the Au/Pt relation.

The reason *why* Au is only priced at 313$ is daily elaborated here at the USAGOLD-forum. This bit of rather infantile math, only accentuates the pressure that exists on Gold as a monetary asset (not as commodity) to defend worthless fiat. Conclusion : Gold isn't even allowed to behave as a commodity anymore !!!! That explosive is the state of affairs today.

The Hoople$$$$329.20$$$$#8433209/04/02; 12:04:30

Asking why gold is important to me is like asking someone in Miami why plywood was important to them before Hurricane Andrew hit. I don't want my damn financial house blown away! The difference is at least people in the path of the hurricane were accurately warned. Cabal rigging and media propoganda will give most people no chance to protect their wealth until the financial hurricane hits. These are extraodinary times, I don't think comparisons to 1929 or prior bubbles do justice to the gravity of the problems. Helpless urban dwellers,derivatives, and nuclear maniacs are but three scary things that didn't exist 70 years ago. The fine folks here at CPM are basically insurance salesmen. What portion of your portfolio do you want to insure with the barberous relic?
De Ronin$$$$311.40$$$$#8433309/04/02; 12:16:42

I'm an Elliott Wave /Bob Prechter devotee who believes the deflationary bout that is unfolding will depress the price of all commodities further, including gold. I am none-the-less adding to my personal physical gold holdings on a regular basis especially on price dips.
Rock"The Privelege of the Elite....within the grasp of the prudent"#8433409/04/02; 12:19:18

Contest ......$324.50

Let me lift this big rock up (my burden has been qiite heavy lately) and climb out of my despair for a few minutes to yawn and stretch and poke my head outside. What a beautiful day! The air is fresh and the very existence of "freedom" that I feel has more value to me than anything else in the world. (maybe I watch too much History channel) Of course like all of us I would like that freedom spent in comfort and safety, neverless today I am a free man and I can choose to do whatever the heck I want. That's awesome! For now I choose to stay home after completing my 2 hour power walk at one of the beautiful bird sanctuary's located next to the Long Island Sound here in beautiful Connecticut.

My birthday of all days is 9-10 the day before the most horrible event that has ever occurred on American soil. How was I to know that life as I know it would never be the same again the day after my last birthday? I don't know about any of you but it sure has taken a toll on my physic. Just one more thing to complain to my VA shrink about.

Its been a difficult task but I have been struggling to keep my home economics course updated and current here at USA Gold. Even as the landscape changes around us continually and though the face of the sky often helps us discern the weather. When the markets change so fast with no consistency it catches the uninformed sheeple off guard and many lose much. It amazes me that we can discern the skys and know when the sun raises or sets or when a north storm is blowing in, yet the CBNC Crew and those that join their opinions can't discern these obvious signs that the financal markets have revealled to us and they are in dire distress yet the masses just don't see that perfect storm brewing. Can you see it Blade? How about you Mish? or you Mr "G" can you see the perfect storm coming? I could go around the table and I think we are all in agreement.

My guess for the price of gold is $324.50. I have a personal reason for that number. I coud list many reasons to own gold. I've been in precious metals since 1998. It has given me and my family a sense of financial security especially now when the stock market is acting like some kind of water wiggle gone out of control and when do you get back in without getting wet? My advice is you don't. Get Gold.

I sleep better knowing deep in my great heart I have provided my family with some valuable assets, real money and at the same time insurance on that dreaded rainy day that approaches us all. Remember the Blade's words, stock up the best you can. Who but God himself knows what lurks behind the corner but its best not to get hit blinded. We've all be forwarned.

Well, back to my other projects. Good day all and thanks for listening.

Rock AKA Great Heart!

Pippin$$$$ 331.2 $$$$#8433509/04/02; 12:50:09

I have the feeling that political events will accelerate. Weeks ahead may be bumpy.
Greetings to all.

Gandalf the WhiteThanks Sir Pippin for letting us know your feelings ! BUT--#8433609/04/02; 12:55:19

Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

NOW tell us WHY gold is important to you !
----REQUIRED discussion item for entry----

Gandalf the WhiteOR, Sir Pippin ---#8433709/04/02; 12:57:57

ARE those the reasons that you have gold ?
Trying to understand !

The CoinGuy$$$$$325.20$$$$$#8433809/04/02; 13:00:07

A complete asset in your hand.


kasperjackBill Murphy Tim Wood debate #8433909/04/02; 13:10:27

www.mining web


Comment on
A $5 mystery for gold
2002/09/04 Wed

Bill Murphy
Email Address
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
You are begging the question, Tim

Hi Tim,

You have done your best to bash me, which is fair. You have not been fair in your latest diatribe
against me concerning a 17 year old copper report. You and I know it was instigated by Jeff
Christian, a former Goldman Sachs employee, who is of the bearded, daft world. Beards are great,
it his stupidity that is so offensive. Why won't you DISCLOSE that to the MININGWEB???

Why are you so defensive in bringing this fact to your readership?

You have crapped on me ever since you attended our C-Span covered press conference at the
Washington Press Club luncheon on Lincoln's Birthday.
John Mesrobian, a mega MININGWEB follower would like to meet with you in New York to calmly go
over the gold issues.

From what John tells me, you REFUSE to meet with him.

Is that true? If so, you have sunk to a new low - just an extenuation of The New York Times, Wall
Street Journal, Washington Post, Rueters and Bloomberg - all of which have not MENTIONED
GATA in over 3 years. We do not exist in their George Orwellian world.

If you cannot even agree to meet with a GATA supporter who has the most honorable of intentions,
one has to wonder whether you have the gold world at interest, or THE PIG world of George Orwell.

Please respond to John Mesrobian, if you even read this.

Best regards,

Bill Murphy

kasperjackTim Woods reply#8434009/04/02; 13:13:03

mining web

Comment on
You are begging the question, Tim
2002/09/04 Wed

Tim Wood
Email Address
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Reply to Bill Murphy

Hi Bill

<You have done your best to bash me, which is fair.>

I have never bashed you, but you have a right to your opinion.

<You have not been fair in your latest diatribe against me concerning a 17 year old copper report.>

It was first and foremost about your CFTC expulsion and fine which ultimately stemmed from your
trading following that copper study.

<You and I know it was instigated by Jeff Christian, a former Goldman Sachs employee, who is of
the bearded, daft world. Beards are great, it his stupidity that is so offensive.>

Bill, I'm not sure why you are always so quick to call people names. Peter Palmedo is your Mickey
Mouse, now Jeff Christian is stupid and his facial hair gets mentioned along with Goldman Sachs,
as though it's the gold market equivalent to HIV. Why? How is it ever relevant.

You clearly revel in living by the sword of your tongue which is why it is odd that you are so
sensitive to criticism. However, I have never, never come across anyone among the professionals
who has resorted to calling you names the way you do them.

<Why won't you DISCLOSE that to the MININGWEB???>

The story was NOT prompted by Jeff Christian, but by a friend who is also in the media.

<Why are you so defensive in bringing this fact to your readership?>

I was given a copy of the CFTC investigation and sanction, which piqued my interest because it
was vastly more serious than you had alluded to in our earlier conversations. You made the copper
report important because you said it was what prompted you to go long copper and the CFTC
investigation spans that activity.

In following up on that report, professionals in copper at the time did not know of a World Bank
report by Frank Veneroso. Jeff Christian was one of the people I consulted. In a subsequent
conversation with Mr Veneroso, it became clear that it was not a conventional World Bank report
and was commissioned in an unusual way by the IFC and the Escondida partners as a follow up to
the overall due diligence for the project. Mr Veneroso also denied that you could have studied his
report as you claim since he was constrained by confidentiality issues from giving it to you.

<You have crapped on me ever since you attended our C-Span covered press conference at the
Washington Press Club luncheon on Lincoln's Birthday.>

Nonsense. You copped a fair hearing on that day; indeed no other publication even mentioned it.
We have always had a contentious relationship, but that doesn't stop us reporting on you. We don't
have an agenda or thrive on vendettas. I, personally, have consistently reported on the
circumstantial credibility of the investigations by Reg Howe and James Turk.

<John Mesrobian, a mega MININGWEB follower would like to meet with you in New York to calmly
go over the gold issues. >

It is impossible to conduct a rational conversation with Mesrobian. I have tried to understand him
through a lengthy e-mail correspondence and he is simply incapable of backing up his assertions
with facts. He is always eager for me to write only bullish gold news or to bash Barrick, but never
vice versa.

<From what John tells me, you REFUSE to meet with him.>

It's not that I refuse, I just couldn't be bothered. There is nothing that he can say or offer that is of
any value to either me or our global audience, now 100,000 strong. Just look at his obsession with
Nick Goodwin for brilliantly calling the most recent top and urging investors to wait before getting
back in. He cannot bear that Nick saw the turn back to $300 while John was calling for everyone to
keep building long positions at $320+. Nick is a trader's dream, yet he has been thoroughly
maligned by John who now admits that he has not personally studied Nick's model.

<Is that true? If so, you have sunk to a new low - just an extenuation of The New York Times, Wall
Street Journal, Washington Post, Rueters and Bloomberg - all of which have not MENTIONED
GATA in over 3 years. We do not exist in their George Orwellian world. >

Everyone has a a right to speak, nobody has a not a right to be heard and least of all to be
mentioned in the media.

<If you cannot even agree to meet with a GATA supporter who has the most honorable of

He does not have honorable intentions. An e-mail Mesrobian sent me inadvertenly (it was meant for
another Web outlet) indicates what his real agenda is. It is nothing I could be interested in.

<one has to wonder whether you have the gold world at interest, or THE PIG world of George

I think you have hit the nail on the head Bill. Miningweb is not a gold shill, it is happy to consider
every angle. We do not dwell in a parallel universe where Tim Wood is on the payroll of the bullion
banks. One of your most paranoid supporters once said I had taken instruction from JP Morgan.
Glad to hear this, I called JP Morgan human resources the next morning to demand the health
insurance I lack as an independent. After all, if I'm on the take can't they even spare an HMO plan!
No luck. I suffered similar rejection from Goldman Sachs, Deutsche, UBSW, BMO, Scotia, Merrills
ad infinitum. If someone could pass me the conspiracy hotline, I would be glad for it, because I
could use some more income.

<Please respond to John Mesrobian, if you even read this.>

I filter his e-mails and have now started to filter his Web comments. It is pointless; he operates at a
sub-rational level where only he is right.

<MW readers: Jim Sinclair was the legend of legends during the late
1970's/1980 gold run-up. I was there. He had all the Arab accounts, as well as the big politicos,
business and movie star accounts. He was to GOLD what Bunker Hunt was to SILVER!>

And Miningweb is happy to take the kudos for letting Jim's voice be heard more widely in 2000,
when Bill also called him names because at that time he did not believe there was any conspiracy.


mikal$$$$329.20$$$$#8434109/04/02; 14:19:42

I hold gold because it's rare, durable, and beautiful, agreeing with Alan Greenspan that gold "stands as a protector of property rights." and Hans Sennholz who believes "no other commodity enjoys as much universal acceptability and marketability as gold." Winston Churchill said that making profits is "not a vice" and "Nothing in life is so exhilerating as to be shot at without result.", both experiences from HOLDING gold! It's also reassuring that the disingenuous of the world can only parrot an anti-gold screech, deaf to the soothing and enabling strains of gold's unending symphony. To hold gold is to continue the achievements of all human ancestors, affirming the traditions and standards of thousands of years of free market trades and human progress.
WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8434209/04/02; 14:56:51

Thanks Black Blade! Hey...rather than "The Afternoon Gold Report", how about "The Blade Gold Report"? :)
Roger The ShrubberVision#8434309/04/02; 16:10:49

$$$$329.80$$$$ Good Day To All. First, I should say thank you for your insight and colorful commentaries over the past two years. Learning CAN be fun.
For the past five years I have been part of a junior mining/exploration co. that will soon be public, and have often shared with the board members your analysis of the gold market. There is gold in them thar hills, and I don't think we'll be hedging -- that's an understatement. In fact, we probably won't sell until the spot is close to REAL market value. I believe that there is already one company in CANADA that is doing just that.
My reason for holding gold is for insurance, as much as it is for an investment. There are going to be troublesome days ahead, but those same days will also be the greatest days. I believe that there will be a significant transfer of wealth from the "unjust" {I think we have an idea who some of those are}to the "just". This is not speculation, my source has a perfect tract record for reliability.
One hero of mine, the late Admiral H. Rickover, had a plack on the wall that read "Where there is no vision, the people perish". Hosea, son of Beeri, once wrote, "my people perish for lack of knowledge". They were both right. Right on the money you might pun intended.
I think that there exists in this forum, both vision {for a better, more honest world}, and knowledge. Since wisdom is the correct application of knowledge, I do believe that much of that is present here also.
Godspead to the truth. ---- roger that


Socrates964Gold#8434409/04/02; 16:11:50

$$$ 345.00 $$$

My cyclical model tells me that we are in an up-phase which should peak around this level towards the end of September. I'll guess that it will get there by settlement.

Btw, who thinks that Mining Web/Tim Wood is fair and objective in its/his coverage? While Bill Murphy does himself no favors by flying off the handle at the smallest provocation, I must say that in the limited time that I have followed Tim Wood, I have found that he shows indecent haste in publishing anything anti-GATA/anti-GATA associated stocks like DROOY (e.g. MWW's visa episode), and deplorable laziness in promoting any news that is bullish for gold. Indeed, HedgingWeb would seem to be a more appropriate title. What say you, ladies and gentlemen?

The Knife$$$321.1$$$#8434509/04/02; 16:30:43

Why gold is important....Something (gold) has to be a measure of value against currencies. Therefore, my personal choice are gold coins. Helps me sleep at night...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Belgian@ Socrates964 (Hedging web)#8434609/04/02; 16:54:13

Only one prudent reflexion, with personal mixed emotions, on goldmine-writings out of South Afrika. When a country's currency (the rand) is, now more than ever before, completely at the goldmining's service...
Do fill in, the dots, yourself, and take peace with the obvious conclusions. Gold being the anti-thesis of fiat and the South African Golden Arch, producing a permanent depreciating currency that soon will even be too expensive to print it. What an ugly tragedy.

SilverHoard(No Subject)#8434709/04/02; 17:01:10

Gold coinage is the store of monetary wealth. As coinage, gold has protected many a person from both financial and physical harm. For me gold coinage is both finacial and life insurance which only my family need be aware of. I have traveled to far down the road of life to not have realized that fiat currencies of any color will enslave us.

GaleriderSTOCK ANALYSIS?#8434809/04/02; 17:02:50

Greetings from Japan,
No one has lined up in front of the banks here, yet. My friends are seriously considering it, however. The mood is more gloomy than it has ever been. We were looking at the financial news from NY and ran across INTEL's rise in price before it reports earnings. The reason for this rise was because the investment houses, brokers, banks, etc. all lowered the earnings expectations for this company. As hard as we have it over here, we had to laugh at that one. The last rounds of these lowered earning estimates was after SEP 11th (attack of the cowards)in order to keep the market afloat. Do you think we'll see more of these? Hope the gold prices hold steady for a little longer as I need to buy more!

mikal$$$$329.30$$$$#8434909/04/02; 17:08:29

@Gandalf- This is my corrected entry, Hoople reserved $329.20.
mikal@Roger The Shrubber#8435009/04/02; 17:13:03

Good to hear from you. Keep it up, ok? Your entry was taken by Goldenpeace. It's getting crowded up there already! Cheers!
SilverHoardNew Citizen of the Realm#8435109/04/02; 17:16:29

Yes I too am a long time lurker at this distinguished forum. I would prefer to be called a long time student. The interaction of members ideas and knowledge has made all who attend this forum a power to be reckoned with. I would like to remphasize to all an idea I have seen cross this forum many times. We each have the responsibility to tell as many others as possible what an illusion our current monetary system really is. Again, I am proud to be a member of this distinguished community.
balzacSEPT. CONTEST#8435209/04/02; 17:18:38

After the anniversary of Sept. 11 and just prior to
Yom Kippur on Sept. 16 there will either be a major
terrorist incident or the expectation of one. Therefore
I will suggest the price of gold will rise to $$$ 121.4 $$$.

Good luck to all !!!!


balzacCONTEST#8435309/04/02; 17:22:15

SORRY, The number should read $$$ 321.4 $$$


Socrates964Belgian#8435409/04/02; 17:32:26

Take your point, Belgian, but surely a big rise in POG will allow an interval between the various acts of the S African tragedy - after all, it took Mugabe over 2 decades to ruin his country, and the main reason why he is going about it with such abandon is that he draws his own salary from the Congo - something which is not true of Mbeki and Co.
Gandalf the WhiteHAIL Sir Roger The Shrubber#8435509/04/02; 18:04:09

Roger The Shrubber (09/04/02; 16:10:49MT - msg#: 84343)
Thanks Sir Mikal for the correction and assistance to Sir Roger ---
YES, Sir Roger, PLEASE try another GUESS as that one has been taken.
Please ALL, try to check the lastest UPDATE and see if your GUESS has been taken by a PRIOR entry.
EVEN though it is only the SECOND day of the Contest, entries are FLOODING IN and things are BUNCHING !
LOVE IT ! --- But you will have to do a little more work before you can claim the GOLDEN PRIZES !

Chris PowellMorganChase says it wants to lead in disclosure#8435609/04/02; 18:08:43

MorganChase tells GATA it wants to be a leader
in financial disclosure:

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

misetichGoldman, CSFB Named by House in Analyst, IPO Probe #8435709/04/02; 18:22:14


By George Stein

New York, Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Goldman Sachs Group Inc. and Credit Suisse First Boston Inc. are being investigated by the U.S. House Financial Services Committee, which is widening its probe of research conflicts of interest and allocations of initial share offerings at securities firms.

Goldman Sachs Chief Executive Officer Henry Paulson and Credit Suisse Chief Executive Officer John Mack were asked by the committee to turn over documents, e-mails, compensation formulas and all records related to their work with communications and technology firms.

Got gold?

BelieverMy Contest Prediction#8435809/04/02; 18:22:46

My guess: $$$$398.60$$$$
I believe in gold and precious metals because they are the only thing that makes sense in a world that has turned upside down, where "yes" means "no" and the truth seems to be a lie.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8435909/04/02; 18:25:21

UPDATE #4 (as of 18:20 Denver time 9/4/02)
$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)

$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
Thanks all you FORMER LURKERS that have already entered this CONTEST ! WELCOME !!

Gandalf the WhiteWELCOME Sir Believer ! -- I got your Prediction ! <;-)#8436009/04/02; 18:27:40

Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)
My Contest Prediction

misetichCredit for Brazil trickles back, but still scant#8436109/04/02; 18:31:10


Even if the market's favorite candidate stages a comeback to win the Oct. 6 presidential election, a slowing global economy and the threat of a U.S. military attack on Iraq could mean Brazil's credit crunch lasts longer than expected, they said.
"In this context, people are being extra cautious, which suggests that there won't be a dramatic turnaround in the credit

Global economic slowdown may force Brazil into default

Got gold?

kasperjackTaken From Ted Butlers Latest#8436209/04/02; 18:36:57

In August the Mint sold
more Silver Eagles than any month this year and any
August in the program's history. Sales of 1,745,000

kasperjackMore TB#8436309/04/02; 18:51:28

The coming year should also see the release of an
unlimited mintage of a special one-ounce silver coin
commemorating the 9/11 attacks,
proceeds according to Ted will go to Sept 11 victims families. Boy wouldn't it be the collectable if it had the Twin Towers impression on it.

R PowellJPMorgan-Chase response to GATA#8436409/04/02; 19:08:54

Not real easy to understand but I did take special note of this sentence,

"While notional principal is the most commonly used volume measure in derivatives and foreign exchange markets, it is not a measure of credit risk."

On this I'll have to agree. Mr. Borden also explains that the net exposure is what is reported to shareholders while all positions must be reported to exchange regulators. This also seems okay as long as the shareholders understand that their statement shows NET risk while the complete statement shows all the pieces which boil down to net exposure.
Basically, there are huge and potentially almost unlimited risks involved with buying or selling futures (derivatives) and with selling options. There is no risk with buying options. There is a one time, up front cost necessary to buy an option but that is all that can be lost- total, no matter what. So, if an at-risk position is covered by an option that has only a one time, up front cost, then the positions combined can lose no more than the initial cost of the option (plus commission costs which are next to nothing for JPMC). So, in essense, this combined position requires the initial premium cost of the option (already paid at time of purchase) and margin but has no further downside risk.

This all refers to the fiat game and in no way reflects on gold or silver sold which may or may not ever be repaid in metal form. M.K. once stated that he believes that only about 3000 tons has really left bank vaults. With gold I don't pretend to have a clue as to whether repayment in metal will ever be possible. With silver I don't believe leased silver can be repaid in metal form (mho).
Back to derivatives, Borden's response seems reasonable to me. No judgement here on whatever those positions are!, just that what he explains makes sense. I still disagree with (or don't fully understand) Sinclair's idea that POG at a certain level (POG=354) will result in disaster. Counterparty risk always exists and physical paybacks aren't likely but notional derivatives risk can not be determined without considering all offsetting positions and, of course, the resulting naked exposure risk at that one particular moment in time.

HOOSIER GOLDBUG$$$$$$$$$$ 330.00 $$$$$$$$$$$$#8436509/04/02; 19:11:32

Hold Gold to HAVE some tangible assets for some of the fruits of my blood, sweat and tears (LABOR! Deny consumption today to pass on TRUE WEALTH to my sons.
Speedycontest#8436609/04/02; 19:15:01

$$$333.70 gold has played a key roll in stablizing my portfolio to the good! Seems the only stable thing to date!!!
misetichAnalysis: Lower GDP Admission Complicates EMU Fiscal Debate Sep 4 / 10:12 EDT#8436709/04/02; 19:20:53


By Matthew Saltmarsh

BRUSSELS (MktNews) - EU finance ministries are finally coming
around to a view held in the private sector for some time -- that this
year's eurozone growth rate will be around 1%, perhaps less. But that
admission makes existing euro area deficit reduction goals even tougher
and will further complicate the debate on whether to ease rules
constraining spending.

Well-placed officials have told Market News International that
finance ministry forecasters in most EU members now agree with the
International Monetary Fund that eurozone growth this year will be
around 1% and perhaps less -- well below forecasts made in Spring, which
were around 1.5%.

From continent to continent global economic slowdown continues
How can the current stock market values be justified?

Got gold?

R Powellkasperjack#8436809/04/02; 19:23:54

Thanks for the good silver news. The Mint issued some 90% silver coins with the old Buffalo nickel design some time back and sold out immediately. Commemorative silver coins will be affordable to almost everyone and may give the silver situation some publicity. Hopefully, demand will be strong enough to call for extra mintings.

Officially, the "Mint" will not purchase silver until 2003. Unofficially, it has been reported by Mr. Morgan that the supplier of the silver rounds used to stamp the coins has started to build inventory in anticipation of the government's order of 10 million ounces. How much silver is still readily available? Apparently not enough for the sterling silver jewelry business.

Artie Farkle$$$$317.2$$$$#8436909/04/02; 20:02:53

Hello all

Why gold is important to me: I see possession of gold as a chance to make it through a storm, perhaps even prosper when others are going under. Possessing gold is my vote against the current system. : )
SlowmanHappy Birthday Gold Price Settlement#8437009/04/02; 20:10:11

Please post my guess at $$$$333.40 $$$$.
Personally, I , hold 1/3 mining stocks, 1/3 physical gold, and 1/3 physical silver. The reason is I DO NOT trust our government and know that if you want to make money, FOLLOW THE MONEY ! It makes sense when people like Soros, Gates and Buffet buy silver. No place better to be in bad times than gold and silver in any form. Read Ezekial 7 vs. 19. The bible tells us it will be the last thing of value in end times. Who is of better authority than JEHOVAH ?
Best of luck to all!

Noble1$$$$ 308.6 $$$$#8437109/04/02; 20:25:58

Gold is the wealth of kings and that's good enough for me. ANOTHER reason-Presently gold is cheap in USD.
SilverHoardSiilver Coins#8437209/04/02; 20:30:47

When the talk turns to silver coins, I think about the bi-metalic system of coinage which served this country well for long periods of its history. Is all this talk about the collectability of Silver Eagles and commerative silver dollars the real purpose or the best use for this silver. Would someone add up the total mintage to date for Silver Eagles alone. Then estimate the quantity of old Morgan and Peace dollars in VG-VF condition. Then estimate the quantity of junk silver coins available. If a number is arrived at would it not represent a base to be paired up with the Gold Eagle coin program and be capable of supporting a bi-metalic monetary system. Yes, I know that there is not enough to replace current total monies outstanding. However, if a couple of zeros were removed from the currency, would we not be back to the same point before the current dollar value had been inflated away. I know there are a dozen other arguements against this idea. It is an idea that lurks in my mind for our future. I just yearn for a strong stable monetary system for ourselves and our children. A good nite to all the citizens of the realm
Black BladeBrazil Bonds, Currency Fall on Signs Lula May Win in 1st Round#8437309/04/02; 20:58:27


Rio de Janeiro, Sept. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Brazilian bonds posted their biggest slide in three weeks on concern the presidential candidate favored by most investors won't be able to close the gap on his leading rival. Jose Serra has pulled into a statistical tie with Popular Socialist Ciro Gomes for second place, while still trailing frontrunner Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva by 17 percentage points, according to a Vox Populi poll. The survey showed Lula's support rising, boosting concern the Workers' Party candidate may be elected outright in the Oct. 6 voting and eliminating the need for a second-round vote on Oct. 27. Brazil's currency has lost 19 percent of its value in three months on concern that if Lula or Gomes wins, the new president would increase spending to fund campaign pledges, sapping funds needed to avert the biggest debt default ever. Brazil's debt has tripled during President Fernando Henrique Cardoso's eight-year term to about 1.1 trillion reais ($354 billion).

Black Blade: Lula has already stated that he would probably just default on foreign loans. South America is toast. The dominoes will continue to fall.

Black BladeA looming depression? #8437409/04/02; 20:59:50


FRANKFURT, Germany, Sept. 4 (UPI) -- One of Germany's top economists is warning the country's leading bankers that Europe, and the rest of the world, are in dire danger of following Japan into a deflationary depression -- far more serious and prolonged than a conventional recession. "The people running the world's central banks and those responsible for economic policy should take the signs much more seriously," argues Norbert Walter, chief economist for Deutsche Bank, Germany's largest, in a paper made available exclusively to United Press International. Walter, sunk in gloom after returning from a research trip to Asia, is circulating the paper in a bid to influence the world's financial leaders at the autumn meeting of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank in Washington at the end of the month. The stars are all aligned, fears the top economist of Germany's biggest bank, for a very dismal economic outlook.

Black Blade: Stating the obvious.

Black BladeCrude Oil Rises After Bush Meets With U.S. Lawmakers on Iraq#8437509/04/02; 21:01:08


New York, Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil jumped after U.S. President George W. Bush told lawmakers that no action ``is not an option'' for dealing with the threat posed by Iraq.

Black Blade: It's a done deal. I see that the Europeans are unhappy with the US plans for war. Funny thing is they always seem to invite us to theirs.

Black BladeRetailers under pressure #8437609/04/02; 21:02:37


Retailers have seen deteriorating sales during the last few months as the combined effects of uncertain economic news, a seasonal shift to fall merchandise, and heat waves tamed consumers, whose spending has been shoring up the economy. Some retailers are nervous heading into the crucial fall season as early reads on back-to-school sales are disappointing, prompting many chains to offer early promotions on clothing and other related back-to-school merchandise. "Back-to-school sales have not been meeting expectations, especially in the apparel and accessories merchandise classifications," the report said. "Most stores missed or appeared at the lower end of their targets."

Black Blade: The second most important retail season a disappointment. That does not look good as it usually sets the tone for holiday sales. In a word – "Grim".

Sierra MadreR Powell: On JP Morgan-Chase Derivatives on their books...#8437709/04/02; 21:06:49

Well, Rich, the whole theme of "notional value of derivatives" and "risk" is exceedingly abstruse. What would Will Roger's have said about this? You know darn well he would get to the heart of the matter.

I am no Will Roger's but, JP Morgan-Chase is up to their kiester in all sorts of contortions no one can really understand. And when that is going on, you have to know that a great deal is very rotten. All this derivative crap is not about banking in the sober sense of the word. It's about gambling. GAMBLING! (Excuse the flaming)

The idea is that no operation is beyond the pale. Anything, bar nothing, anything can be done and financed. Just "structure" it right, and the deal gets done. How? We use derivatives to spin off what we don't like, to others, who will always - to make a buck - accept the risk in return for - a buck. So no deal that can be conceived by someone under the influence of opium or cocaine, can be rejected. It's all doable. Just spin off what you don't like.

The problema is: WTSHTF, those who accepted the risks are going to be "not at home". Poof! They default. And when things just begin to get sticky, all of a sudden, no more accepters of risk. The machinery binds up.

These people at JP Morgan-Chase: they know what they are doing. They are preparing for the burial of the American Republic. Every single one of the higher ups, knows that this whole scheme is damned to Hell, that there is no way that their august bank is going to survive. They don't care and never have cared. They may be b......s, but they are not dumb b......s! There you have that book that explains it all in detail: "FIASCO". It talks about "ripping the client's face off".

Nemesis ALWAYS follows hubris. JPMC will be no exception. Sit back, relax and enjoy the fall of Babylon, 21st Century.

Now, pardon me while I go and enjoy my cigar for this evening.


CometoseSILVERHOARD /POST 84351 / Illusionary monetary system#8437809/04/02; 21:15:40

I quite agree....

(it's a little bit funny how we go about this business of figuring all things out and the linear process of making ends meet .... like deer /elk that never look up) we
should look up more .... Those who have come to this forum were seeking ..... to know ....something ....about .... something....we are all very fortunate....

I believe that the Universe that we live in is an Illusion too, in which we get to dwell and discover...and on some special days it is the medium which delivers to us bright moments coming through here......cargoes of treasure

There are references in writings that have been handed down to us over many years.... writings that speak of The Rock ...
and also referring to our state.... psalm 103: 14 For he knoweth our frame ; he remembereth that we are dust ....
In the context , this isn't a compliment to man's strength or character....

There are also some references to people having salt in there ( in the writings).....and in here inside the universe..where we sojourn.

I guess there's kind of an inherent warning in all of this about which dusty people wind up running stuff like the financial system .....because some of those dusty people out there are just plain flaky ( accidentally introducing us to their failing experimental journey /fantasy which is now proving to have a sandy bottom /foundation)

Don't rely on these people for answers and don't invest your trust in those who are now having a maalox moment with that immodium chaser behind the well dressed facade that has an exterior tint of calmness......( perhaps that is the calm before the storm).....

There is a storm on the horizon and the wind is going to blow .......and after the storm there will be many ,,,, with questions .......and the dusty people that caused the problems will have been transported to a distant shore where they may be unavailable for comment ..... and the many answers that people will be seeking will be blowing in the wind.......Reminds me of a rather new colloquilism and rationalization for WHY QUESTIONS? TO paraphrase and this may be the best answer initially that the pundits will publish .......POOPICAH HAPPENS.....

One of my kids used to blame many things that happened on the fact that it was an accident....."Well I didn't mean to have that happen" My next question is always "Well, did you willfully determine that accident not to happen?

Life wasn't exciting enough and the bankers didn't have enough games to play when we had a gold standard ....watching the economy then was like watching the paint dry .....the masses have had to work more at the expense of the quality of life ...... the end result greedy men at the top of the financial structures( corporations and banks) ... eating the first fruit ( I think we are going to find out that they may have and major portion ) that this overjuiced economy produced and they consumed all the seed capital for future expansion....hmmm....

SO I wanna know when Robinhood is going to show up .......

The internet may be just the medium through which the masses get the picture and come to feast on the security owning real money (GOLD) will give...

a nation of onederivatives are not safe?#8437909/04/02; 21:32:48

Do you really think the people at Morgan Chase would gamble? Why, those people don't even need to eat lunch. They are not humans like you and me. The Morgan Chase building doesn't have restrooms, because they're not needed. The staff extrude their waste once a week in little bags and throw them into the air and they disappear like..., well, like derivatives. Everybody knows that derivatives are as safe as, ... as safe as..., well, they are as safe as the British Empire, that's what.
sector@SierraMadre About the "Derivatives Gambling"#8438009/04/02; 21:38:26

Actually It's Not Gambling...

...the derivatives held by JPM have a purpose. That purpose is to suppress the price of the underlying commodity.

At $45 Billion in gold derivatives JPM IS the COMEX, therefore any action exhibited by the COMEX can only be at the wish of JPM. They wish gold to be $315 it is. But they have a physical supply problem and from "Deep Throat" also tonight JPM received a gold swap from the Treasury to fund their gold derivatives book. This suggests that they cannot repay the swapped gold because it has already been sold into the market. The Treasury has the metal but JPM has the liability.

Bill Murphy has been suggesting that the Iraqi war offers an opportunity for Treasury to "Forgive JPM's gold debt to the Treasury"...when gold can no longer be held down. One can hear the Fed..."No taxpayer money was used". The gold derivatives will just be erased. JPM never goes to buy gold on the open market.

So there are new dimensions to the manipulation "Dots" for the map.

JPM is an enterprise based entirely upon the ideology of the rig. For example, in 1996 they launched their soon to be $20 Trillion interest rate derivatives book only weeks AFTER breaking the gold price in June 1996. Without gold to threaten the dollar, they had the perfect rig set for low interest rates. It was a sure thing.

BTW the Fed Chairman holds two board seats on the Bank of International Settlements, a private corporation. Since he makes interest rate policy effecting the BIS member banks, this amounts to a blatant conflict of interest. The Master of the Universe fails to see this.

There are hundreds of billions in other commodity derivatives listed but are not identified in the OCC documentation. Those JPM derivatives do not exist to raise the price of the underlying commodities.

It isn't a gamble it's a rig.

ji$$$$343.0$$$$#8438109/04/02; 21:38:27

Gold is important to me because gold is and always will be, well, Gold.
MoonHowler$$$$ 321.9 $$$$#8438209/04/02; 21:59:49

Gold is important to me because it is a continuous source of wealth and a (theoretically) uncontrollable, universal currency, ruled by no single nation.
Cometose(No Subject)#8438309/04/02; 22:37:08

There's a gold moon rising
Sierra MadreSector: That JPM-C is "not gambling" but "rigging" the market.#8438409/04/02; 23:04:48

Doubtless, they are doing what you say. JPM-C is, as perhpas you might say, "betting on a sure thing". (You did not say that, but, it is implied in your interesting post.)
Is the whole JPM-C rigging of the price of gold so that its price will not rise, something that will endure and then come to a successful end - by "success" I mean that JPM-C will come out unscathed, having fulfilled its objectives? In twenty years' time, will the executives of JPM-C be able to look back in satisfaction and admiration at the whole operation, begun say, in 1995?
No? Then they were gambling and lost.
All human action involves some degree of risk. Anything we attempt can fail. But as Antal Fekete points out, there is a big difference between natural, inherent risks - such as weather, for farmers - and man-made risks. Suppressing the price of gold incurs in man-made risks and must be classed as a form of gambling. In fact, it is bound to fail.
The bigwigs are smart. They know they are going to fail. Yet from a motive of momentary gain, they are selling their Bank and all of us, down the river. There may be also, a motive based on some other grounds, such as a vision of ulterior power on a scale never before known to man.
If JPM-C is not gambling, then they must know they are going to come out ahead. I shudder to think of that possibility. Therefore, I say, they are gambling, and they are going to lose mightily.


Further thoughts on derivatives, for your scrutiny:

There are some $100 Trillion out there, if I am not mistaken?

Now, as long as nothing much happens, no one is out any important money. The losers take their lumps, and that's that. A billion here, a billion there - nothing to speak of.

However, when something big comes along, losses become gigantic - never mind whether the $100 Trillion is "nominal", still, the losses are going to be astronomical, for SOMEONE.
If JPM-C is protected in all its risks, as those wise guys are thinking they are, then let's suppose that they are saved all those gigantic losses, and somebody else absorbs them. However, those gigantic losses are going to take down a great many mighty players, and that will take down the banks that thought they were "protected" by their hedges.

It's a kind of Russian Roulette: no one gets hurt until there is a bullet in the firing chamber of the 357 Magnum revolver. Then, the system goes down, and JPM-C along with it.

All this, by someone who knows zilch about the technique of derivatives.


Sierra MadreComatose and Black Blade (re: Brazil's default)#8438509/04/02; 23:22:34

Comatose, you have posted some pearls of wisdom this evening. "Dusty people", indeed! Again, I do think we are living in "Babylon 2".

Black Blade: There is life after default, for Brazil. It makes sense: a debtor defaults when he sees he has no further prospect of more credits. I used to sell some stuff wholesale and there was always the problem of collecting from a debtor business. The management would blackmail, and insist on more merchandise before they made any payment. No easy way out of that.

So Brazil defaults, so what (for them)? The hens will go on laying eggs.



WaveriderHard rain in the desert#8438609/04/02; 23:46:23

"The Saudi royal family is weathering the biggest challenge to its rule since it founded the kingdom about 70 years ago. But the task is harder without a definite roadmap to guide it through the post-September 11 pressure aimed at diluting the influence of the puritan Wahhabism brand of Islam in daily life...All this indicates that the kingdom is being pulled in two directions. There is an uneasy calm in the relationship between hardliners, Defense Minister Sultan and Interior Minister Nayef, and the moderate de facto ruler, Crown Prince Abdullah, that could explode when the question arises of succession of the current ailing King Fahd."

Waverider: Interesting article on Wahhabism,its history and current influence in Saudi politics.

Spartacus@Sector#843879/5/02; 01:22:53

Spartacus: There was an interesting post on Gold-eagle earlier this week about the Fed´s gold swap game. What do you think? Is "amysnyder" right?

The Fed's Gold Swap Game
(amysnyder) Sep 02, 22:31

>> The Fed's Gold Swap Game <<

For the past 31 years, the FED has been raising the stakes continously in the BIGGEST POKER GAME in history to keep the rest of the players from calling its hand.

The FED has used every political and economic trick in the book to keep the other players at the table and guessing.

TIME is running out on the FED... some of the players a few years back got sick of playing the FED's game under the FED's constantally changing [IMF] rulebook and began creating their own house tables (i.e. EU, islamic gold dinar, and others which remain unanounced to date)

OK, so what are GOLD SWAPS and why are they used.....

Black BladeGold Higher#843889/5/02; 01:22:57

Gold is at $316.60 at the open in London and rising. That is a $3.30 an ounce increase. The reason appears to be more talk from Dubya and Colin Powell about the "need" for an attack on Iraq. Tony Blair agrees and will go to Camp David this weekend for talks about Brit cooperation. The war is a lock! That is war at this point is inevitable and there's no turning back. Watch for gold and petroleum to rise from here!

- Black Blade

Topaz$$$$295.5$$$$#843899/5/02; 01:41:33

Gold is important to me because:-

For some inexplicable reason, it's the ONLY thing I'm able to SAVE....Currency, by it's nature, flows through my hands like water....otoh I still have the first Oz of GOLD I acquired and dire straits would need to befall me to prize out even a Half Sovereign.
Black BladeU.S. buildup estimated at 100,000 troops, 1,000 military planners #843909/5/02; 01:44:20


The United States continues its military buildup in and around the Persian Gulf with analysts estimating up to 100,000 troops within striking distance of Iraq. U.S. military sources and analysts said Washington has sent tens of thousands of soldiers and military personnel to Gulf Arab states, Central and South Asia and the Levant. They said the force includes at least 1,000 military planners who have prepared for a rapid airlift of forces in case Washington decides on a war against Iraq. Analysts said the total number of U.S. troops in the Persian Gulf and surrounding regions now number around 100,000. They said this could enable a U.S. attack on Iraq within weeks of a decision by President George Bush. The Washington-based Center for Defense Information said the U.S. troop deployment effort has been muted and taken in cooperation with host countries. The center said in a report that the cooperation is meant to keep the airlift out of the public eye.

Black Blade: Looks like the build up is well underway. Just over the wire on CNNfn is that US military sources are saying: "this is just normal troop rotation". Yeah, right.

Meanwhile, Cap'n Tony is on his way to Camp David to talk with Dubya. Like I said, the war is a lock.

Belgian*** PAPER ***#843919/5/02; 02:16:16

The last bond-holders are dancing with their last stretch of rising prices (declining interest rates). Those trillions of debtpaper are appreciating, as compensation for many other loses. When IRs touch zero's over.
Than, the big flight from US$ will start for good. Flight into another currency, THE EURO. Very little of those US$-bond trillions will shift into stocks. It didn't happen in Japan and wan't happen into US-stocks. US$ cash will depreciate in exchange rate AND purchasing power.
Japan (government and banks) refuses to re-inflate and prefers to do nothing whilst declining japanese stocks push those giant banks into the abbys. Next target for Nikkei is around 6.000. Trillions of paper (and digits) will soon, have no place to run. No alternative. Time out for the financial """ cartels """ !

When the US's economy and its currency (US$) is on the brink of collapsing...the whole world breaks down and will, finally, manifest withdrawel effects from its past dollar-addiction !

The speed and firmness, at wich IRs + Stock Market + US$ are declining all together in lockstep, is evidence for high probable total collapse. Calling off the ME attack in extremis is the only possible, positive, surprise.
What are the odds for having this happening ?

TopazAn American abroad.....FOUR times better off than his Aussie counterpart. #843929/5/02; 02:37:24

The striking thing to come out of a recent visit to NYC was how similar the face Dollar value of goods and services were there in comparason to here in OZ.
From Bigmacs to Budweiser, Smokes, Dining out, Wages...right across the board, prices were VERY similar.
Sooo...An American visiting Oz can effectively expect to part with a QUARTER the cost his Aussie counterpart visiting the US will.
Exorbidant privilige?
Charts show Treasury Yields as we approach the reckoning - all else being equal Gold will move has to if a Rate cut is pending methinks.

Black BladeA New Scandal In The Making? - Phantom Natural Gas Surplus#843939/5/02; 02:47:44


Remember The Case of the missing Barrels? That was a controversy of a few years back when critics blamed an apparent gap in the International Energy Agency's supply data as a contributor to soft oil prices. Now we seem to have The Case of the Phantom Surplus. As natural gas markets have softened in recent weeks, a major contributor to the slackening market has been a year-on-year gas storage surplus.

But a major contributor to natural gas price uncertainty this spring has been the switchover of weekly gas storage data from the American Gas Association to the US department of Energy's Energy Information Administration. The handoff occurred May 9, and there was no lapse in reporting data. What came into question – interestingly, by Simmons & Co. International, a major proponent of the Missing Barrels theory, as well as other critics – is the change in the methodology and sampling of companies surveyed in calculating the storage data. The concern has been that these changes could create potentially false indicators of the relative health of the US gas market.

EIA in fact fiddled with its own storage numbers when it released its storage report for the week ended June 14. The agency made multiple revisions throughout its data series each week going back to Nov. 2, 2001 (the start of the heating season). This resulted in a cumulative increase of 41 bcf in the prior week's supply number. "Now that the DOE is tracking the weekly storage data, we must call into question both the accuracy of the newly reported data and also the usefulness of the longer term historical baselines provided by the DOE," said Marshall Adkins, analyst with Raymond James & Associates Inc., St. Petersburg, Fla. "We believe the net impact of the poor data quality has created the impression of a looser, or more oversupplied, gas market than actually exists."

Noting that the DOE data did not match the historical weekly AGA numbers, Adkins said that DOE fabricated a new set of historical weekly injection data in a bid to have its monthly data dovetail with weekly data similar to AGA's. But Adkins claims that DOE botched the job. All of this gives the impression, critics claim, that there is more gas available for markets than actually exists. Adkins estimates that "phantom surplus" at 1 bcfd. And he expects more revisions in the future.

Black Blade: It looks like another scandal in the making. The EIA has been asking the public and the industry for recommendations on data collection and comments. It appears that even they are aware of flaws in their methodology and data collection. If the supply runs short in the dead of winter that would be a disaster and the rising cost of energy would devastate the US economy as it struggles with a deepening recession/depression. With the threat of war in the ME the NG storage data questions become even more critical.

Black BladeEuropean Markets Start Off Negative#843949/5/02; 02:54:50

Asian market finished off negative, except Japan in a case of "Monkey See - Monkey Do" following Wall Street's lead. European markets are starting off negative while US market index futures and the US dollar trend lower. Meanwhile, Gold is bouncing along around $316 to $317 an ounce.

- Black Blade

Black BladeGoing To Get "Interesting"#843959/5/02; 02:59:52

The USD is falling, precious metals and petroleum are rising, and market futures are negative. Meanwhile the Iraqi war is locked in as Cap'n Tony is popping in for afternoon tea and crumpets with Dubya this weekend. Should be quite "entertaining" when the markets open on Wall Street.

- Black Blade

Golden BearWhy the Gold Cartel Will Fail to Prevent a Primary Gold Bull Market#843969/5/02; 04:18:35


"...It is not the gold derivative position that worries the major investment banks that are the parents of the subsidiaries which are the exposed gold dealers. It is not the $46 billion to $60 billion in gold derivatives on the books of JP Morgan/Chase that worries them. It is the effect of an explosion in the gold derivatives on the balance of the US Dollar 23.7 Trillion in other derivatives on the books of JP Morgan that worries JP Morgan/Chase, IMO.

This is why JP Morgan/Chase and their other gold dealer cartel members are stopping gold at $312.50 to $314.80 today (as this is written) with the help, IMO, of central banks.

Such a manipulation to prevent the gold market from rising above $354 will fail because history tells us that no manipulation ever attempted has stopped a primary, fundamentally-driven bull or bear market in anything.

The two greatest traders that ever lived, (both expired), Bertram J. Seligman and Jesse Livermore taught that a successful manipulation must always be in the direction that the market wants to take -- fundamentally and technically. Any other manipulation not only fails, a manipulation against the fundamental and technical desire of a market will also create a coiled market that goes further in the direction of its intention than it would have gone in the first place. Therefore, the result of the attempt by the gold cartel to hold the market down will be to propel it higher than it would have gone earlier...."

GB: Balancing on a knife-edge...

MO VER MEGTopaz#843979/5/02; 04:23:05

You are right on. The best savings program for my daughter and my nephews (and myself) is metals. Like my brother says, "It may not have gone up, but it is still there." The most difficult thing (for me) will be to establish a disciplined selling program. You struck a chord with me - thanks.


SpartacusIraq #843989/5/02; 05:37:39

---(CBS) CBS News has learned that barely five hours after American Airlines Flight 77 plowed into the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld was telling his aides to come up with plans for striking Iraq — even though there was no evidence linking Saddam Hussein to the attacks---
Black BladeGold Moves Higher This Morning - up $4.00 and Rising!#843999/5/02; 06:35:42

Gold is up on war talk and weak US dollar. The US market index futures are crashing through the floor boards and petroleum is moving higher too.

US unemployment first time claims (8/31) are at 403,000 - above recession levels. Productivity numbers edge higher but no one is spending to buy inventory. But as usual last weeks unemployment numbers are revised higher. The infomercial (aka CNBC is trying to paint lipstick on this pig). Looks to be very "entertaining" at the open today!

- Black Blade

Black BladeGold Mining Shares Rocket in Pre-Open and Physical Moves Up at Open!#844009/5/02; 06:44:07

Gold and silver prices are moving higher at the open in NY while Gold stocks are trading higher in the pre-market. Looks like a volatile session ahead. The investment houses are sure to be out soon to buy index futures to minimize the damage and then to work the stock market indices toward a recovery later. It could be a difficult job, but then it could also sap their resources. Now if the little investor bails and mutual funds are forced to liquidate at the end of the session today it could get very ugly - should be fun!

- Black Blade

Black Blade"Bone Pile" Grows Higher#844019/5/02; 07:02:54


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - First-time claims for U.S. unemployment benefits dipped in the latest week, but remained above the key 400,000 level for a second straight time, the government said on Thursday, suggesting the economic recovery is having trouble generating jobs. The Labor Department said claims dropped by 8,000 to a seasonally adjusted 403,000 in the week ended Aug. 31, the first decline since the first week of August. But the Aug. 24 week's total was revised upward, to 411,000 from an initially reported 403,000.

Black Blade: Yep, the spin is that the unemployment first time filings fell 8,000 – but WHOA!!! – The prior week's data was revised upward by 8,000! It is no surprise because each prior week is revised upward but that number is "conveniently" ignored. The infomercial channel (aka CNBC) "conveniently" forgot to mention this little detail at the release this morning. Market index futures are slowly – very slowing easing a bit off the lows. Gee, I wonder who could be buying the market right now? Especially with such "grim" data coming. Hmmm…

BTW, I see the cheerleading infomercial host is soft balling questions to the touts, errr I mean "guests". I noticed one CEO after giving his canned sales pitch, errr, I mean responses at the end of his interview appropriately say: "thanks for your help". Ever notice that no one ever shows a chart of "guests" previous stock picks? Also, ever notice that "guests" never issue a "sell" recommendation? Yet the economy is so wonderful as hundreds of thousands of nonessential workers are filing unemployment claims every week. Hmmm… "interesting"

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Buena Fespeculations#8440309/05/02; 08:02:32

my guess is that there will be NO war at this time. before "w" et al can organise support, a stunning $/bond destroying "revelation" (g says perception is everyting) will appear which will speedily spell the end of the us economic/financial system. america will recoil in shame at her own corruption and a great period of introspection will begin.

gold/euro/oil/crb will blast off as the us hyperinflation maifests (bonds toast, equities so so).

just a guess

Roger The ShrubberOops#8440409/05/02; 08:18:47


Thankyou Sir Gandalf for the generous welcome, and the tip. $329.80 was taken. If I must provide a new explanation, then here it is.

Apart from a being a good insurance policy and investment, I believe that gold in the right hands will aid in the reversal of our present course of financial turmoil. Things will no doubt be worse before they get better, but that's history for you.

If it is true, that great wealth will only magnify an individual's evil character and intent, then the opposite is also true. So I say, let the Cabal continue to dump their gold until their ammunition magazines are empty, then We will take our rightful place. --Roger--

WaveriderJitters spark rise in gold#8440509/05/02; 08:49:52

"Jittery investors piled into the gold market on Thursday as Washington lined up a possible military strike against Iraq and the September 11 anniversary loomed. Fears of a repeat attack on the U.S. mainland were a major factor in gold's eventual move to a 2-1/2 year high of $330.30 last June. That rally was also helped by plunging stock markets, a fragile dollar, Israeli-Palestinian violence and moves by leading gold miners to cut their forward sales of the metal to take advantage of rising spot prices."

Waverider: Interesting little article to find in the Globe and Mail.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8440609/05/02; 09:03:49

UPDATE #5 (as of Thursday 0900 Denver time 9/5/02)
FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)

$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
OVER 50 ENTRIES at this time and many more are planning their PROGNOSTICATIONS !
While the POG just keeps moving about and edging upward toward THE MOON !

MKFar from Regular Morning Update #8440709/05/02; 09:30:53

Marie and Jill tell me that a number of clients have called to say that they miss my morning observations on the gold market. I do not plan to do these on a regular basis anymore (particularly in light of the fine job Jon Warner has done in getting out the real gold news), but the current trends -- up, down, far and wide -- inspired the attempt at clarity published below. I hope you gain from it.

Good luck to all our contestants. I am amazed at the level of participation. It is truly gratifying for us to see the number of readers coming forward to let us know we in fact do have an audience. I want to again thank our fine group of regular posters who make this such an interesting place for new, regular and veteran gold owners to visit.


- - - - - - -

"There are still a lot of bad things going on in the world. There is little reason why gold should be materially weaker." Anonymous New York gold trader

- - - - - - -

Gold tracked higher this morning with bullion bank and hedge fund buying the chief feature, according to London traders. Translated, what the London traders are trying to tell us by code is that the bullion banks, hedged mining companies, and strung out hedge funds are looking at a whole host of factors pushing behind the gold price and opting to cover now rather than later. As they say in the trading business "Better to be a day early than a day late. Better yet, let's get the jump on our competitors and come in three days early when they're not looking." And that;s what defines today's action. We are seeing more and more of this first man to the door routine as we go along and that in itself has become a market factor to be reckoned with. At one point this morning, gold traded above the $320 level before the usual suspects showed up to knock it off its pedestal.

So what are the factors pushing hard at the gold price and worrying the gold bears? Let's start with Arab buying. It's difficult to leave your money in a New York money center bank when the lawyers are pounding on the doors with legal suit in hand. Then you've got the prospect of war in the Middle East and what that might do to the oil price. No matter how many times the Saudi's tell the world they will step up production to stem a supply crisis, it is difficult for rational investors to blot out visions of sunken ships clogging up the Straits of Hormuz, oil field fires, pipelines blown to smithereens, not to speak of on-going terrorist activities even if the West wins the war. Add to that the general tanking of world stock markets, transnational currency erosion, contagion symptoms (high unemployment, bankruptcies, price inflation, and so on) in the first world economies, and one begins to realize that there is plenty of reason to order, take delivery on and store plenty of yellow nearby. (If the investment world thinks the Japanese, Arab and Indian buyers are having an effect on this gold market wait until their American counterparts show-up.) So we explain the stubborn upside price action despite the best efforts of the anti-gold crowd wherever and whoever they may be.

That having been said. . . . .

Gold has been a steady pull to the upside since the early August lows -- moving quietly, stealthily while much of the investment world was taking advantage of summer's end. Now the traders and investors are back and things are happening. Yesterday's upside surprised most of the gold world. Today's movement is confirmation something is going on -- a groundswell if you will. Peter Hillyard at ANZ Investment Bank summed up the technical aspect as follows: "$318/19 is going to be a fairly big obstacle to a big rally, but once it's through that it could power through to the $320's." So, as the forces of good and evil move toward confrontation at the $318 level (as this is written), so on a more serious plane the United States and Iraq move toward a confrontation of their own. Those of us who remember the sequencing of events prior to the first Gulf War can't help but clinch a little at the arrival of Tony Blair this week for a meeting with GB2. We remember it was a visit between Margaret Thatcher and GB1 in Aspen that pre-dated by a few weeks launching the first Gulf War.

Maybe that's what has this gold market on the move on near-term basis, but it is the other things mentioned that have laid the foundation. I think its about time we started to refer to this as mentioned in our newsletter this month as the first bull market for gold in the 21st century.

Trurl$$$$ 308,00 $$$$#8440809/05/02; 09:33:57

I accumulate gold since its not somebody elses' lies. Lies is of course slang for liabilities.

Actually, to quote Trurl from the book *The Cyberiad* by Stanislaw Lem, "I love my gold, D*mmit"

cyberbat@ Buena Fe#8440909/05/02; 10:08:31

please tell me more on your speculation. That is very interesting, particularly about bonds. Why no war ?
KnallgoldBelgian #84324#8441009/05/02; 10:12:48

Thank you for your reflections!I always enjoy it to follow your thoughts.

"The rumor that CBs should be prepared to
accept fiat (settlement) for their lost (?) goldreserves is more of the same fiat-advocacy !!!"

I also noticed the London connection...

What I'm starting to realise is that with the coming super-re-valuation of Gold,my portfolio consists probably of too much large pieces.I mean if you go to a bank with your 1ounce coin to free some cash for your living,and they give you 20'000 "Fränkli"-it could bring you into a) safety problems b)bureaucratic reporting requirements c)general suspicion d) tax stuff etc.

Nevermind that with a kilo bar...when I bought my first Gold about 4 years ago I bought as large (mostly bars) as possible because of the cost.But now I'm changing on this.

So I started with buying 1/10oz coins (they're so cute) and the pre33 stuff which comes in reasonable sizes.Maybe I will keep the large pieces for a lifetime,only exchanging the small stuff.But then,I'm not sure if I even could sell a coin,I just guess it will be necessary sometime...

Sierra MadreLarry Williams interviews Zbig Brezinski last night...#8441109/05/02; 10:13:51

I think Zbig has an I.Q. about 60% higher than GWB.

Said some intelligent words. In essence, (not in his own words):

Iraq is defying the UN; but, the USA cannot behave like Iraq and make war on Iraq in defiance of UN (world opinion). (My opinion: to do so would make the U.S. a "rogue state", as independent states are now called. It's OK to be a "rogue state", IMO, but don't expect to occupy the place of leadership in that case.)

If the US does so - and it can, as Congress and the US public will back the President if he decides on war with Iraq - then the US will be disrupting the whole world order as presently established. Zbig was EMPHATIC on the absolute necessity of obtaining international consent and approval before initiating any hostilities. Not to do so would bring on disastrous international consequences!

My opinion on the above:

Leadership means, leading OTHERS. Leadership is not a "go it alone" attitude, nor a macho attitude.

US leadership - which it wants and needs to retain - requires CONVINCING other States that it is in their interest to have Saddam Hussein ejected from power and Iraq subjugated. That would be true leadership. Not a "Lone Ranger" approach which GWB seems to like.

Zbig stated that there is NO EVIDENCE that makes a war necessary. If the USSR and China were kept well dissuaded from aggression for decades, certainly Iraq can be kept under control and there will be nothing to fear from any Iraqi aggression.

Zbig is a BRAIN, no doubt about it, and speaks wisely.


sector@Spartacus - What are Gold Swaps?#8441209/05/02; 10:38:14

They are Central Bank Tools...

...designed to allow numerous banks to "Trade" their paper back and forth for the temporary use of paper gold [The "Swapped" gold].

The received swap is then sold in to the paper gold market [COMEX] for the purpose of suppressing pog. Various "Carry trades" can develop during a prolonged downward gold price spiral.

IMF rules allow BOTH Central Banks to claim they EACH still own the swapped gold. This effectively hides the transaction in the same manner that Mahonia's "Loans" hid Enron's debt.

It is important to appreciate that using similar stealth, the Central Banks also are hiding massive losses where they have loaned or swapped somewhere around 12,000 to 16,000 tonnes of their gold. It all has been sold into the market or is being carried as underwater derivatives by bullion banks and dealers. These dealers actually hold the liability since the physical metal [In most cases] resides in the original vaults.

The trip-up happens when the price of gold rises as it is. The derivatives go so far underwater that ratings agencies look to downgrade debt and then the Central Bank's risk management committees look to pull the plugs on the derivatives.

Pay attention to ratings agencies actions against bullion banks with gold derivatives.

BTW Virgil Mattingly, Alan Greenspan's Chief Counsel, revealed in the Feb 1995 FOMC minutes that the US had swapped gold. This transcribed admission [Which participants initialed as approved], in which he later claimed amnesia or being misquoted in an August 2001 press release, confirmed that the United States Government officially manipulates the price of what lawfully [CFTC ACT 1974] is a freely traded commodity.

There are several other references to gold swaps and "swap puts" in the FOMC approved transcripts [See "Swapping Lies" at http/].

Carl HReuters: US Airways allowed to walk away from 67 planes #8441309/05/02; 10:55:32

Definitely a sign of a healthy or improving economy...NOT...

Got Gold?

kramrichA trigger for gold price?#8441409/05/02; 12:13:29

I have a question for the forum.

How would investors view an OPEC like cartel in which the gold mining companies hold back say 10% of their production annually as an asset (better than cash) on their books?

1) Gold still mined and above ground therefore no price change.

2) Or decreased physical supply much like the Washington Agreement and then a large spike in gold price.

3) Or something else. ( any thoughts?)

I believe choice #2 is a good one. Seems to me there is resistance to POG passing thru 330-350 range. An announcement by the mining companies that they will begin to withold physical gold from the market would be explosive for the POG. More than enough to pass thru any road blocks particularly in the current state of the world's economies. Some miners may say that they don't have the operating capital to hold back 10%, but the resultant price spike would make up the 10% in revenue and some to boot! Goldcorp (GG) is already doing this now. I'm sure some of the non-hedging miners have already considered the above. Anybody have knowledge of the antitrust laws and how they might affect an agreement between the miners to hold back production? Seems to me that POG needs a spike to pass thru the road block so the "sellers" will throw in the towel. This may be a solution.

VanRip$$$$ 317.9 $$$$#8441509/05/02; 12:20:50

Gold is probably my best insurance "policy." Among other things:
1. It's not a paper document riddled with if's, and's, but's maybe's and legal terms. Nothing to interpret or worry about with gold.
2.Insurance companies may not pay up when disaster strikes. Or they may pay a little or a lot only after a long, stressful battle. Don't have to worry about that with gold.
3. Gold will never go out of busness, which is what some of my insurance companies may do.
4. Once you have i t, you don't have to pay something extra for it every few years, which seems standard for auto, house, flood and fire insurance.
5. And it always draws ooohs and aaahs from family members when it is displayed. Can't say that for my other policies.

White HillsSierra Madre, Zbig interview#8441609/05/02; 12:55:26

Zbig may have a big IQ but no sense. Lets just do nothing and wait for the next 9/11 while we are trying to convince the Euros and the UN, who are not in danger of an attack, that we have the evidence that Iraq is fueling terrorism and developing Nukes and other nasty weapons. Maybe the New World order isn't something we should even be involved with. Let some other sucker be the leader for a change and pay the world's debts and we can set back and watch the show. Gee, there must be some reason that the peoples of the world are beating down our borders trying to get in.
White Hills

Brett Woods***#8441709/05/02; 13:54:58

More than 100 MPs from all Arab states except Kuwait and Saudi Arabia capped a meeting in Baghdad Wednesday by opposing the threat of U.S. military action against Iraq and calling for lifting U.N. sanctions imposed on Iraq for its 1990 invasion of Kuwait.

"The union rejects and strongly condemns American threats and preparations to wage a war against Iraq," said a communique issued after a two-day meeting called by the Arab Parliamentary Union.

President Saddam Hussein reportedly addressed the Arab Parliamentary Union saying, "Your brothers in Iraq wish that God would spare them evil and avoid fighting,... If God chooses that we have to fight, we won't disappoint you,... We will fight them in a way that will please you and annoy (the) enemies."

He did not elaborate.

GuidedBig IQ's#8441809/05/02; 13:55:15

Amen to that White Hills. Big IQ's with no wisdom to go with it spells TROUBLE. Seems like the kind of people who cooked up some of this financial mess we're in. You know, the one's who call gold a barbarous relic.

I thank God we have a leader in GW that knows his job is way too big for any man. He looks to a higher authority for wisdom and has made no secret of this. He also seeks the wisdom and counsel of other wise leaders around him. Like his father and his cabinet and I'm sure many other great men and women of integrity.

Far from perfect but I can think of some alternatives that are just plain scary right now.

kramrich U.S. troops kill Karzai attacker - officials say#8441909/05/02; 13:55:40

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. special operations troops
guarding Afghan President Hamid Karzai shot dead at least one
attacker who apparently tried to assassinate Karzai in Kandahar
on Thursday, U.S. defense officials said.

The U.S. Central Command said in a statement from its
headquarters in Tampa, Florida, that one U.S. soldier was
slightly injured in the attack and was being treated in
Afghanistan following the failed attempt.

Afghan officials said Karzai survived the assassination attempt but that one U.S.
Army Special Forces soldier and the governor of the Kandahar, Gul Agha Sherzai,
were wounded.

President George W. Bush welcomed word that Karzai, a close ally in the U.S. war on
terrorism, was unhurt. "The president was informed and expressed his relief that
President Karzai was unhurt," said White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan.

The incident followed an explosion earlier in the day in the capital Kabul that killed at least 15 people.

The United States, which overthrew Afghanistan's former Taliban rulers after accusing it of harboring the militant al Qaeda movement
behind the Sept. 11 attacks, has strongly backed Karzai as the new leader.

Bush has called for a massive international effort to rebuild the country, devastated after decades of fighting, but has been reluctant
to expand the international peacekeeping force there as urged by Karzai.

The United States has about 8,000 troops in Afghanistan, pursuing operations to track down Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. It does not
contribute to the peacekeeping force.

A small, elite U.S. military force was assigned to guard Karzai in late July after reports that al Qaeda and Taliban remnants might
attempt to assassinate government leaders.

Fifteen U.S soldiers were assigned at that time to provide around-the-clock security at the presidential palace alongside Karzai's
existing bodyguards from the Northern Alliance, the most powerful faction in his coalition government.

U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said when the move was made that the security job for American soldiers could last several

Thursday's attempt came ahead of a planned transfer of that protection from the U.S. military to special guards supplied by the U.S.
State Department.

Kramrich: It looks like things might be getting out of control in Afghanistan. Bombings, attempted assasinations, and a call to jihad by an anti US general in Afghanistan.

Carl HReuters: Fed's McTeer-U.S. recovery has been jobless #8442009/05/02; 13:58:32

To paraphrase, if you have soaring productivity, who needs jobs. Too bad the prodictivity increase is a myth resulting from the way increases in computer performance are accounted for in the calculation.

Got Gold?

Black BladeGold Moves Higher Again#8442109/05/02; 14:10:27

Gold is moving higher again in after hours - bouncing on $320 an ounce. A lot of dismal economic news and strange occurances in global news. The Karzai assasination attempt and the "intruder alert" on a US military bio and chemical warfare storage facility. Air strikes in Iraq's southern "no-fly" zone, etc. Most is covered in today's "Daily Gold Market Report".

Petroleum prices are also moving higher in a replay of events seen in the 1980's and 1990's. History does repeat and during those times gold and oil spiked much higher. Looks like a repeat to me.

- Black Blade

The CoinGuyBlack Blade#8442209/05/02; 14:43:36

Excellent afternoon Report!

I completely concur with your last sentence. I usually make my purchases in August. In times past, there was a seasonal slowdown late summers, and I'm used to getting a good buy. But when I made my purchases this year, most dealers were very busy. One comment from a good friend, "I haven't seen activity like this since Y2K, and were in August".

Deer Season(Bow) 10 days and counting...Will be in Colorado this fall to "as you say" slay an elk myself. Got skunked last year...

The CoinGuy

Black BladeRe: CoinGuy#8442309/05/02; 14:55:19

The PM action is picking up from what everyone I know tells me. The threat of war and the deterioration in the global economy has put a fire under physical bullion sales. Meanwhile, I will call a couple of people I know later on and try to find out about the "intruder alert" in Utah. They are military so they may not be allowed to discuss it. But it does show how skittish people are.

I am just about to go out in a couple of minutes to wait for a nice bull to bed down this afternoon, however, since it's close by I will take a side trip to the gym first. I've seen a lot of elk, but they are on private land. Lots of white tail and muleys too. I hope to stock up on mammal flesh as last year's supply is running a bit low.


- Black Blade

off to the gym!

WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8442409/05/02; 14:58:09

Excellent! Added here so it won't be missed!
Belgian@ Kramrich#8442509/05/02; 14:59:50

All central banks (CB) with goldrserves are actors in the Gold cartel. All CBs are constantly intervening as to manage their currency's exchange rate and its repercussions on the state's economy. So, intervention is a very normal activity and many cartels, in the broader sense of the word, are business as usual. That's why "we, Gold-Advocates", call, Gold's status *UNFREE* ! The De Beers diamond-cartel was tolerated as are many other, less known (outspoken), cartels or monopolies. The most popular (now infamous) cartel is OPEC.

This as an introduction to some reflection on your question.

The Gold industry can impossibly act against the CB's Gold cartel. Even if they wanted to. Official goldreserves (30.000 tonnes) is the largest amount of Gold under a common umbrella. The pro-fiatists ! The gold industry can only (free to) occupy itself with Gold (its product) as the *commodity* and NOT as the monetary asset. The gold industry (miners) cannot start a global campaign (and actions) against fiat and promote Gold as an alternative for paper-money. Just imagine any kind of commercial that is bluntly saying that all fiat isn't but confetti and that we all should rush for physical Gold in possession !!!

Sales of official reserve-gold are always done in a very specific framework. It is never offered as an alternative for fiat (confetti) under the form of bullion bars for investment. This as to not provoke any massive movement of wild Gold hoarding fever. BTW, Sir Knall gold...don't worry about your kilograms, especially when you diversified with a mixture of coins, as you mentioned.

The past and present Gold-wars are nothing more than periodic struggles between the different CBs, within the Gold cartel . Cfr. OPEC's disputes ! As for oil and gold-reserves, the general public will never know what the different agendas of the different cartel members are. So we have to keep speculating on this part of the drama.
Most of the time, nothing seems to be what it is. And how can we possibly trust any statistics on oil from Russia or the M.E. The same is true for the different gold-reserves and the respective CB owners their intentions with that Gold.


As long as "physical" Gold is freely available to take into ones possession, all over the world...there is a certain risk that a disruptive goldrush might castrate the Gold cartel. The goldminers are too vulnarable to get such a goldrush organised. Us, western lilliputan Gold hoarders can easely be influenced in our perceptions and Gold deeds with the overpowering impact of POG (manipulation). That is different for sophisticated Gold Giants. Cfr. currency pirates à la Soros and others. But even they have to comply with the financial fraternity's rules and customs.

Iraq wanted a 21$ POO in 1990. You know what happened. Same goes for anyone who should dare to challenge the almighty Gold cartel, openly and publicly. That's why Buffet and tutti quanti (exclusively americans), populized (relative) harmless silver and NOT Gold ! This imvho of course.

Sir Kramrich, Gold has such a long history of utmost importance that it is unthinkable that any bucaneer can enter this Golden ship with much poehaa. Gold must ba boarded with sub waterline methods. Read stealth and subtle accumulation .

Allow me to repeat that it is the extreme low pricing of the valuable Gold that is indirectly evidence for its present importance. How paradoxal this might sound.

TG once said that one should not look at things from outside > inside but the other way around ! Believe me Sir, it took me also quite a lot of study time to aqcuire some understanding on this (rather simple) Gold matter.

When one studies the caracter of any "cartel", it becomes much easier to gain some more understanding on what is happening to Gold and where it will most probably end.
OPEC is the best case to study and find similarities with the Gold cartel. And in my vieuw, any cartel is a priori a conspiray, but not necessarely an evil one.

Once the coming dollar-flight can't be stopped anymore...the cartel will shift into another policy and abandon the past targets. But as long as those 30.000 tonnes remain in the vaults of central banks (any CB)...there will be a Gold cartel. Fiat will always be re-invented and Gold will always be there as a precious commodity and as "the" only monetary asset.

And a last note on those miners. If major miners are in the know of the very high probability of a much higher POG in a not too distant future...why should he bother not to exhaust his high grade ore, during the transition period ?

And ad repititum, the present 2.500 tonnes of yearly new mined Gold, declines every year in importance against the growing stash of aboveground refined. And as Cavan Man illustrated, 2500 tonnes is most probably a high in the historical increase of mined Gold ! All the best to you Sir Kramlich.

Believer$398 #8442609/05/02; 15:40:37

That COULD be
just one REALLY GOOD WEEK! Right?

Think BIG in a little time.

mdgcThe Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST#8442709/05/02; 15:45:42

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$

when gold pops thru the $325/330 peaks of last July and Sept/Oct 1999 it will reach the 350 range quickly

OperativeThat Feeling#8442809/05/02; 15:51:00

There is a particular feeling I get in my stomach the exact moment a plane loses touch with mother earth. It lasts but hundredth of a second and then is gone, but it always happens every time I fly. It's not fear, nor anxiety, but best described as excitement, that an adventure has just begun. Today, I turned the computer on after having been away for the long weekend, and when I seen the price of gold, I got that feeling.

@ Belgian, glad your "home" and writing once again.

@ All, Thanks for the reading material, some very good posts of late.

goldquestGreenspans Speech#8442909/05/02; 15:55:05

at Jackson Hole.
Excuses, excuses, excuses! No answers!

sectorUtah Army Sarin Depot Intruder Escapes#8443009/05/02; 15:57:47

Detected inside the perimeter of an area...

...designated as the highest possible where IS the guy?

It was broad daylight. There is nothing but scrub grass around the bunkers. The locale was chosen, among other things, for its ABSENSE of cover.

My, my, my! Maybe Al Qaeda has discovered a new cloaking suit. That guy COULD have gotten away with numerous canisters of very bad nerve gas! Sound the alarm!

We should start a lottery that sarin or an analog neuro toxic agent will be used in NYC next week.

IF such an amateurish stunt should occur, nooooo-one will buy it.

The current opposition will smell a rat in ...well...a New York minute.

Buena Fecyberbat#8443109/05/02; 18:18:36

"w" babbles about war cause the "enemy of ten" is close to finishing their deed. behind the scenes the us $ game is over, system #8 is ready to assume its role. it is a last gasp attempt to survive (a cornered cat), this time intimidation will not work (or be allowed).

IMS but HO.

GaleriderRAINY IN TOKYO#8443209/05/02; 18:35:24

The market is starting out like the lousy weather we're experiencing this morning. -156.10 as of now. Will we head below the NIKKEI 9000 mark? Today's a good bet. I guess we'll break the 19 year low mark. It's Friday here. Looking forward to the weekend to gather thoughts and hatch crash protection strategies.
GoldCoasterBirthday Contest$$$334.75$$$#8443309/05/02; 18:41:14

I like Gold for all the reasons already mentioned and because for once in my life I'd like to be amongst the top of the heap which I already am with my physical holdings.
jlfletcGuided#8443409/05/02; 19:57:39

Amen to what you said! It's easy to snipe from the cheap seats about what our leaders have done, or should do, etc. etc. Seems like there are a few from out in left field around here....
Cavan ManRoger the Shrubber#8443509/05/02; 20:01:24

Can the largest tree in the forest be cut down with.....a herring? What say ye man?
Cavan ManJimmy Carter: A voice of reason #8443609/05/02; 20:03:30

Read his letter in the Washington Post. Link to be found at Drudge. He is absolutely right on all counts IMHO.
Black BladeArab League: Iraq Strike Would 'Open Gates of Hell' #8443709/05/02; 20:34:22


CAIRO (Reuters) - Arab League chief Amr Moussa said Thursday a strike against Iraq would "open the gates of hell" in the Middle East, and urged Baghdad to readmit weapons inspectors in coordination with the United Nations.

Black Blade: Oh my, not the dreaded "gates of hell"!

Black BladeArmy Has Doubled War Stocks in Kuwait #8443809/05/02; 20:36:05


WASHINGTON (AP) - The Army recently doubled the size of its war stocks in Kuwait to accommodate a little-noticed expansion of U.S. armored forces at a base near the Iraqi border, officials said Thursday.

Black Blade: War preparations continue. I heard that B-52 bombers have been deployed to Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean and US warships are being readied to set sail to beef up the fleets in the Persian Gulf and the Med. Surprisingly I had heard that US troops are also in Qatar, Bahrain, Jordan and Syria for "exercises". Hmmm… "Interesting Times"

Black BladeWal-Mart, Target Say Sales Were Less Than Forecast #8443909/05/02; 20:37:16


Bentonville, Arkansas, Sept. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Target Corp. and May Department Stores Co. said August sales were less than forecast as shoppers' frugality squeezed discounters as well as full-priced chains.

Black Blade: A slowdown in consumer spending has now hit the discounters. It has been the consumer that has propped up the economy – even according to the infomercial touts on CNBC and government economists. It is a bit hard for them to do a 180 and spin a different line now.

Black BladeCrude Oil Rises After Report Shows Decline in U.S. Inventories#8444009/05/02; 20:38:46


New York, Sept. 5 (Bloomberg) -- Crude oil rose after the American Petroleum Institute said U.S. inventories fell close to an 18-month low, spurring concern that supplies are inadequate at a time when the U.S. may be preparing to attack Iraq. ``We've been seeing some nice draws in stocks in recent weeks,'' said Juha Laiho, a crude-oil trader in Houston for Finland-based Fortum Oyj. ``With the recent headlines about Bush and Iraq you have to take the inventory numbers more seriously.'' U.S. crude-oil inventories fell by 6.28 million barrels, or 2.1 percent, to 298.9 million barrels in the week ended Friday, the institute reported late yesterday. Inventories fell to 295.6 million barrels in the week ended Aug. 9, the lowest level since March 2001.

Black Blade" That's quite a drop in oil inventory at a time of war preparations in the ME. The question is whether that drop in inventory due to a rapid build up in the SPR for a more immediate attack on Iraq than many suspect. Hmmm…

Black BladeEconomic 'triple whammy'#8444109/05/02; 20:40:03,1299,DRMN_4_1375124,00.html

Recession, scandals, terrorism take toll, economist says


The economy has been hit by a "triple whammy" of recession, terrorist attacks and corporate scandal, economist Tucker Hart Adams said Wednesday, creating "the most uncertain time that I have ever seen." Adams, the regional economist for US Bank with 25 years' experience, isn't predicting much better times ahead. Her 2003 economic forecast -- what she calls her "informed hunch" -- calls for modest economic growth of 2 percent to 2.5 percent but continued weakness in many key economic sectors. In short, things won't get much worse, but they also won't get much better. "I would love to be wrong," she said at a packed breakfast meeting with US Bank clients Wednesday morning. "But I tell you, I wouldn't bet the ranch on it."

Black Blade: Second thoughts in the banking community? I will come right out and say it – It will get worse and there's no doubt about it. There won't be any economic growth either. Economists blew it big time when the revised GDP data was released a couple of months ago. They scoffed at those of us who said that there is a recession and that its was worsening. Now they are eating crow of course and they are for the most part keeping a low profile. Yet others come out in their place to appear on the day-long infomercials (CNBC, CNNfn, and Bloomberg) to push the "buy" buttons and to "put lipstick on pigs".

Black BladeAsia Starts Off Ugly#8444209/05/02; 20:55:34

The Nikkei has already gone sub 9,000 and now bounced along just above. It appears that Asian markets will be under pressure all night as the news is not good. Exports will be searching for a market as Americans and Europeans apparently cut back on spending. Looks to get "entertaining" in overnight markets, and it will likely get worse if tomorrows US unemployment data is as grim as many expect.

As always, get out of debt (as soon as possible), stash enough cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and start a storage program for nonperishable food and basic necessities.

- Black Blade

silvercollectorPlease check Brett Woods msg # 84417#8444309/05/02; 20:58:30

From this please also recall the last Arab 'summit' whereby " attack of an Arab state will be considered an attack of all Arab states........."

I sincerely believe an assault in Iraq will be devastating, America must consider the consequences. A handful of posters have suggested that 'we need the oil, therefore we will take it'. I also believe the Middle East oil producing countries have awakened to the fact that America needs cheap oil and may stage an invasion of Iraq under false pretenses to fulfil such needs. They also realize that their oil is worth more that the fiat US dollar and day-by-day oil increases in value because of the depreciating fiat currency that buys their oil.

America is losing allies in the 'terrorism' strike of Iraq because an ally of the US, in this regard, may cause repercussions. The fight, brought into full view since 911, is between the US and Iraq and possibly Iraq's allies. Why cut oneself from oil supplies and/or instigate terrorism possibilities supporting a fight that is not yours?

You see, the US is in this one alone. Germany, perhaps the most vocal, has warned the US not to invade Iraq. It will be a US vs. all Arabs and Europe in particular does not want this fight. Why would they?


mikal@Cavan Man#8444409/05/02; 21:00:57

I'll listen to anyone that can wake even one brainwashed American to the evil of our modern "wars", even a CFR boy. So many scores of American interventions, let alone wars, this past century incited by popularized paranoia and self-rightous bigotry against one race after another, one country after another, one religion after another. And to think American soldiers answer more to Tony Blair and kin than our US puppet officials or brass. Just another reason why, in a hierarchy out of touch and out of control, incompetence accompanies disorder and eventual dissolution. The dying world financial system is then succeeded by an innovative transformation in the institutions that nurtured and supported it- religious, political, financial, educational, social, etc.
misetichStalling Sectors Roil Wall Street #8444509/05/02; 21:01:19


On Tuesday the Institute for Supply Management reported the manufacturing sector of the economy is barely growing at all.

Wednesday, Commerce Department data showed the construction industry has stalled out.

Today two reports revealed the services sector is expanding more slowly than expected and chain store sales are falling short of projections.

Only auto sales and housing are holding up. And analysts are anxious about August's auto action, because cheap deals enticed family groups into the showrooms. Car buyers are so hooked on incentives that General Motors, which canceled its 0 percent financing only last month, has been forced to bring it back. Although Detroit is on the road to one of its best sales years ever, profits are being hurt by the costly inventives.


Housing and cars bought on debt -

Stocks are way overvalued not reflecting economic reality -

US $ does not reflect economic reality

A substantial correction in both can be expected

Gold - get some

Got gold?

Gandalf the WhiteHAIL Sir GoldCoaster !! Please note my comment. <;-)#8444609/05/02; 21:02:42

GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 18:41:14MT - msg#: 84433)
Birthday Contest
WELCOME there Sir GoldCoaster !
But please don't NICKEL me --- YOU must DIME me !
Lots of room where you are thinking, so please try again,

AristotleAnyone ever wonder what happend to this novel idea...#8444709/05/02; 21:04:24

"We need the oil, therefore we will PAY for it." ??????

I never did think highly of the punks who go around the streets "shopping" at the point of a gun.

'Know thyself' is, I suppose, what it will never boil down to. Excuses are too easy to manufacture.

Gold. Earn you some, along with everythin else. --- Ari

misetichHMO Premiums Jump Nearly 13 Percent -About 39 million Americans lack any health benefits, and the weak economy -- coupled with rising healthcare costs -- is exacerbating that problem, the report said.#8444809/05/02; 21:05:44


By Kim Dixon
Thursday, September 5, 2002; 2:52 PM

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Health insurance prices jumped 12.7 percent over the past year, the biggest hike since 1990, as insurers wrestled with soaring health care costs while pleasing investors with record profits, according to a survey of employers released on Thursday.

Big Fortune 500 companies and smaller firms alike are skimping more on health benefits, and more are opting not to offer health insurance at all. Employers said they cannot carry these costs on their own and are passing more costs to employees, a trend likely to escalate in the future, the survey said.

"What seems clear is that employees are likely to pay more for health benefits and health care in the future," said Larry Levitt, vice president of the Kaiser Family Foundation, which released the annual poll of big and small employers' health benefit plans.

Consumers are being squeezed by rising service costs/health/property taxes etc.

Sooner than later the "consumer bull" that has fuelled the excess of the 90's - debt based - will come to an end

Got gold?

Black BladeMixed Market Signals#8444909/05/02; 21:06:09

Gold and Silver are higher tonight, Petroleum prices are rising on war fears, the USD is falling against other currencies, the US market indices for some reason and higher - probably on institutional buying (propping up?), and the grains are generally higher as the drought in the US, South America, Australia and Asia are sapping stored supplies and crops wither away into the dust as this "New Dust Bowl" takes hold. The US midwest is suffering through the se4cond and in many areas, the third year of severe drought. For many areas the crop is destroyed or simply nonexistent. Get prepared at the very least - it's "cheap" insurance and so far there has been no relief. Besides, it is too late in the year for any late crops should sufficent rain return. besides as unemployment risies it is a good idea to prepare with a food storage program to offset one more cost.

- Black Blade

misetichShiokawa says fiscal steps alone can't help stocks#8445009/05/02; 21:10:08


TOKYO, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Japanese Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa said on Friday the government was not considering an extra budget but that each economy-related minister would review what could be done to help strengthen the economy.

"It's not something that can be resolved by fiscal measures alone," Shiokawa told a news conference, when asked what the government would do in reaction to a fall in the Tokyo stock market's Nikkei average to 19-year lows this week.

"We are not considering an extra budget or any special measures," he said.

From continent to continent world leaders seem to say 'abandon ship'

Got gold?

Al Fulchinotest#8445109/05/02; 21:11:23

I see some misconceptions being fostered here. I may need to challenge them.
GaleriderTOKYO WEATHER#8445209/05/02; 21:15:15

Still raining in Tokyo and the NIKKEI keeps falling. -204.8 at last count. NIKKEI hanging in there at 9017.
Gandalf the WhiteCOME ON Sir Al F. Stop testing and let it happen !#8445309/05/02; 21:19:42

Al Fulchino (09/05/02; 21:11:23MT - msg#: 84451)
OF COURSE, you were speaking about GOLD misconceptions, YES?
That is the only thing spoken about HERE !

misetichU.S. Economy: Growth in Service Industries Slows#8445409/05/02; 21:26:24

By Siobhan Hughes and Monee Fields-White

Washington, Sept. 5 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. services industry, the largest part of the economy, grew last month at the slowest pace since January amid signs that consumers are paring spending.

The Institute for Supply Management's index for retail, construction and other non-manufacturing companies fell to 50.9 last month, close to the level of 50 that separates growth from contraction. August's reading was lower than the 53.1 in July and the weakest since it was 49.6 in January.

The growing prospect of a U.S. attack on Iraq, weakness in stock markets and the unwillingness of companies to resume hiring has driven consumer confidence to a nine-month low. Retailers are starting to see a slowdown in spending, which accounts for two- thirds of the economy.

Unemployment is rising, retail sales stalling, manufacturing still way below average - excess capacity - inventories rising

The "economic world engine" is going in reverse - and its pulling the rest of the world -US dependent - along with it

Got gold?

GoldCoasterBirthday Contest$$$334.7$$$#8445509/05/02; 21:29:56

kramrichWelcome Al Fuchino#8445609/05/02; 21:30:05

Please challenge away. I for one like to hear all sides of
the arguement.

sectorThe Word "Black Mail" was used today by the President#8445709/05/02; 21:32:38

The Iraqi War Hymn Book didn't mention that word until today

My wife sat back during the six o'clock news, looked at me and said "This is a set-up".

All over the world opposition is falling like rain on the Administration's leap to war.

The President knew it would. He must have had another, compelling reason to launch this adventure, knowing it would run smack into a brick wall of opposition.

So he has selectively released a new word for the propaganda hymn book as a clue... "Black Mail". IF he actually received such a threat, there would of course be a letter making demands including threat evidence to show to the World which would help to explain why he was angry and going to war. But why all the theatrics if this scenario is true? What a high risk adventure! What sheer entertainment! For fun:

Take a look at the regional map of Iran and Iraq from the point of view of an invading general setting up in Kuwait. Iran on your right flank, Saudi Arabia on your left, 12 million people in Iraq with 400 miles of bad road to Baghdad. No McDonald's on the way. Perhaps 1.7 million folks waiting there, maybe more. The noise about Iraq's Republican guard caving in? What would you do if there were no exit, No redemption, Your worst exiled enemies now in bed with the US? Did I mention the Israeli "catalyst"?

Your American forces must be diluted to guard your supply line...400 miles worth. If Iran decides to get into mischief, you must have a plan. 200,000 soldiers to invade Iraq? Subtract a large fraction for logistics and support, divide the rest by the distances from Kuwait to Baghdad and what do you have?

An out numbered, exposed army on a fool's errand. Perhaps this is why the military is united against this whole idea. Will they change their minds if black mail is the real reason? I don't think so.

If there is an attack on the US, the military will probably suggest retaliation in kind.

Al FulchinoSir Gandalf#8445809/05/02; 21:36:31

I could certainly tie gold into why Cavan Man's Jimmy Carter is great for the need for gold. And also to Aristotle's thoughts of paying for oil instead of using a gun. But it would be somewhat confrontational. It is often thought that sharing ideas back and forth will ultimately win the day, but that is in the minds of self appointed reservoirs. The plates of the earth show us that as long as their are competing ideas there will be friction.


Gandalf the WhiteSir Al Fulchino#8445909/05/02; 21:42:36

YES ! And you are one of the Wize Old Men !

Gandalf the White<;-)#8446009/05/02; 21:45:25

OR, --- IS that WISE ?

kramrich@Belgian#8446109/05/02; 21:50:50

Thanks for the response to my query. I was hoping more would say what they thought might happen if the mining companies did hold back some of their production. I'm going to send a few emails out to the miners and see what they think.
Al FulchinoSir Gandalf#8446209/05/02; 21:53:43

I see you can still jest, nevertheless what one man calls wisdom another may call something else.

What some see as a way to survival may differ in the view of another. And to not understand the Middle East properly is to bring about this country's death by blows delivered by wolves in sheeps clothing as well as those by stealth.

In times such as this even family members must be challenged.

goldquestTime To Open Up The NPRA#8446309/05/02; 22:00:16

No need to keep this oil in reserve. Use it now! Let the ME countries battle amongst themselves. The oil could easily be routed through the Prudhoe Bay system, with possibly another parallel pipeline. Use our military to guard against sabotage and terrorism. No need to start WW3 because of greed!
Gandalf the WhiteYes, Sir Al --- You do make sense ! #8446409/05/02; 22:11:41

BUT, I and the Hobbits are trying to learn about all aspects of TECHNICAL things that will win the WAR to FREE GOLD. Perhaps, all these other areas are of great importance too, however, we admit that we know very little about the true feelings in the ME, (other than what is feed to us by the Media) and therefore understand less of that about which you speak. Will this further the CAUSE ?

GaleriderRAIN IN TOKYO#8446509/05/02; 22:16:15

Looks like the Powers that Be in the govt or the banks here are pumping money into stocks. At taxpayer expense. Govt pension funds buying stocks so that the banks will have a better report at the end of the month? They can't let the NIKEEI fall below 9000. 9047 at last recent count.
Black BladeNew 19 Year Low on Nikkei#8446609/05/02; 22:35:57


TOKYO (CBS.MW) -- The Nikkei Average sank 2.2 percent to a new 19-year low Friday morning after disappointing data raised concerns about the economic health of the U.S., Japan's biggest trade partner.

Black Blade: Plagued by a failing banking system, crumbling currency and loss of weaker export markets, the Nikkei 225 fell to fresh 19 year lows. Meanwhile precious metals hold up very well as a safe haven.

Black BladeNew Graduates Job Prospects In Japan Grimmer Than Ever #8446709/05/02; 22:46:02


TOKYO (AP)--Despite signs that Japan's long-stagnant economy may be recovering, high school seniors' chances of finding employment when they graduate next April will be lower than ever, the Labor Ministry warned Friday. According to a ministry report, companies nationwide will only be hiring one new graduate for every two looking for a job. That is down from this year, when companies had 61 jobs for every 100 new graduates.

Black Blade: The growing "Bone Pile" in Japan. Hmmm…

kasperjackPartial Reply to belgian#8446809/05/02; 23:51:47

""The Gold industry can impossibly act against the CB's Gold cartel. Even if they wanted to.
Official goldreserves (30.000 tonnes) is the largest amount of Gold under a common umbrella.""-Belgian

The gold industry is taking on the CB's Gold cartel. They have stopped building mines. It is going to take an assured gold price of $350 gold and perhaps upwards to inspire the mining companies to start aggressively building out their gold projects. Of the five or six biggest miners, how many of them have recently built out or plan to build a significant number of projects? How many have cut their exploration budgets to the bone? How many are experiencing a decline in production? It is the central bankers who were forced to step up to the plate and supply the gold necessary to meet the excess demand. They are selling 400 tonnes or approximately 12 million ounces of gold to satisfy gold consumers. The gold miners have upped the ante and closed out 11 million or so ounces of gold hedges in the first half of this year alone. One mining company has even floated the idea of closing out their underwater hedge book. The miners know the gold price is below fair market value. They know they are cannibalizing their own productive capacity so as to ensure the survival of a few bullion banks that leased tonnes of gold at 1% and sold off that gold to the point where they can never buy it back without bankrupting themselves. They know that the economic aberration the CB's and the bullion banks have constructed is an artificial construct that is doomed. Gold production is declining. There is no supply of new mines in the pipeline at todays prices. The central Banks have no alternative but to allow gold to rise to a point where the miners can restore the gold business to a semblance of sanity.
Official reserves may be 30,000 tonnes but the CB's don't have 30,000 tonnes of gold in their vaults. Anywhere between 5000 and 15,000 tonnes(conservative estimate) of CB's gold have been leased by the gold carry trade and then sold off. Confabulations like deep storage gold have been floated to cover up the central bankers problems. Very shortly the CB's must almost double the supply of gold they are delivering to the market under the terms of WA. Sooner than everyone thinks....

Sierra MadreA portrait from East Texas#8446909/05/02; 23:54:44

I had a car breakdown today, and a tow truck came to pick up my vehicle and take it to repair shop. The driver and owner was skilful and soon we were on our way. I rode in the cab with him.
"How are things here?" I asked
"Very slow. I have another truck, a flatbed, but it's parked in the garage. Not enough business to pay someone to man it."
"That means people are not repairing their vehicles?"
"How are they going to get to work, if they don't have a vehicle?"
"State Inspection is going up to $40 dls a year, next year. More stringent requirements on emissions."
"How are people going to make a living, if they can't repair their cars right now, and requirements are going to be even more stringent next year?"
"A lady that does the vehicle inspections, has three kids to raise on her own, has to spend $40,000 to get the new vehicle inspection equipment. Where's she going to get the $40,000? What's she going to do?" he asked.
He went on: " There's going to be more stealing, more uninspected cars on the roads. People have to work to eat."
I said: "Seems to me that there will have to be bribery at work, to allow the less fortunate to work."
As I sat and waited for my car to be repaired, I gazed at a pawn shop across the street. A young couple went in, with a little child holding a doll. "Lord, help that young family" I thought to myself. "What are they going to pawn? And what good will it do them? Keep the wolf away from the door for three days, or a week? And then - what?"
This is just the beginning of a terrible ordeal for Americans. And others throughout the world.
Lucky those few who can get some gold while it is attainable.
God help those who have nothing to fall back on - most people, in fact.


Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8447009/06/02; 00:05:56

UPDATE #6 (as of FRIDAY 00:01 Denver time 9/6/02)
FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)

$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
Thanks all !
IF, I have either MISSED or errored in the recording of your "Prognostication", PLEASE send me a "hint" for correction.
AND, rumor has it that one, Sir BoundSpirit was lobbing for the contest to end at Thursday Settlement, instead of NEXT Friday !

Christian$$$$$315.50$$$$$#844719/6/02; 00:11:42

GOLD is one of the few metals that serves as a monetary asset. And that is why credit creation gold sold between central banks brings more then $9,000 an oz. That is why banking rules allow banks to claim they still own the swapped gold. It is used to effectively hide swap transactions. These transactions hide off balance sheet loans. Our Federal debt exceeds $90 Trillion. The state of Maine like most states have off balance sheet debt. For Maine it is $1.7 Trillion on a population of 1.2+ million people. America is conquered from within, by our own privately owned banking system. USA as a country is history and excists in name only. We the people exist only to serve the money gods. The only way out is to take the exit road off the fast lane of life. The $ i the mark of the BEAST.
CyclingTesting#844729/6/02; 00:15:10

test< TEST
GaleriderTOKYO RAIN#844739/6/02; 00:18:10

Well, the rain let up for awhile. The government desperately does not want the NIKEEI below 9000. Last count, -89.1 at 9133. We'll see how the final hour runs over here. Pension fund buying to prop up the banks. It has to be. Promise I won't do this every day but it's funny how the stock market is openly rigged over here (no secret to it, that's why mom and pop nippon won't buy into it) and how they play the shell game and rob Peter to pay Paul in Tokyo. I think the U.S. market is rigged but you won't admit it.
Black BladeOil could hit US$100, warns Yamani #844749/6/02; 00:29:05,2276,56561,00.html?

US attack on Iraq could see Saddam firing at Saudi Arabia and Kuwait


(MESSERY, France) President Saddam Hussein could respond to a full-scale US attack on Iraq by firing at Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, sending crude oil prices to US$100 a barrel, Sheikh Zaki Yamani, who was once synonymous with Arab oil power, painted the scary scenario on Wednesday. The former Saudi oil minister, who first got to know Mr Saddam while mediating in a dispute between Iraq and Syria in 1975 over a Syrian dam on the Euphrates, said the Iraqi president could prove dangerous, especially if he looked set to lose power.

'You cannot corner a cat. If worse comes to worse, what prevents him from firing these weapons at neighbouring countries down in the south, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia? Hundreds of thousands of people will die and oil operations will stop for some time.' As Saudi oil minister from 1962 to 1986, Mr Yamani controlled oil policy when prices rocked the world economy during the 1973 Arab embargo on the West. He said Mr Saddam's actions when his troops were driven from Kuwait in the 1991 gulf war should be given serious thought. 'When he left Kuwait, before leaving he burned the oil wells. OK, you get a lesson from that. It will be very serious.'

Black Blade: The price of oil will rise regardless. US crude inventories have fallen sharply and that along with rising fears over conflict in the ME, the price of oil continues to rise. Also, OPEC will not raise production quotas this Sept. 19 in Osaka when member countries meet. Yamani? Now that's a name outta the past.

Black BladeOil prices rally as U.S. supplies drop sharply #844759/6/02; 00:38:56


NEW YORK (AP) -- Crude oil and refined products rallied Thursday amid steep declines in U.S. inventories of crude oil and boosted by underlying concerns over a U.S. military attack on Iraq, traders said. Prices got a boost from inventory data released late Wednesday by the American Petroleum Institute which showed a 6.3 million barrel decline in crude stocks, a 1.4 million barrel drop in gasoline supplies and a 258,000-barrel fall in distillates, which include heating oil.

Black Blade: Oil going to SPR, not imported, or increased consumption? We can rule out increased consumption.

BelgianRe#844769/6/02; 01:38:52

Thanks for responding kasperjack. Waiting for your other part of the reply.
@ Al Facino :Would like to know your vieuws, Sir. TIA.
BB: Old Yamani (the intrigant), living in NY, has been "hired" before to endorse propaganda.
Ari: ...earn Gold...Yes Sir, democracy >>> meritocracy !
Hugh Hendry is "again" on CNBC-Europ and is allowed to call cats...cats ! POG 1.000 $/ ounce.He said it. But the way he is saying it has changed. He changed the "tone" of his Goldsong, as if... ! Yes, right...very dangerous Gold.

NTgeo$$$$319.6$$$$ #844779/6/02; 01:56:11

As a longtime lurker from the Northern Territory of Australia I thought that I should try my luck at this contest. Gold is going up but the timing of the rise is problematical. Here in Australia production is declining and there is very little new exploration going on - as an exploration geo I know from first hand experience! Some of the big hedgers in Oz have now been taken over by more rational companies and hedging is no longer fashionable. So given a bit of luck and hopefully removal of the dead hand of the shorting crew we should all make piles of money when gold goes ballistic!
CyclingA Three Year Lurker #844789/6/02; 02:37:50

I would like to start off any postings that I may, from time to, do. By Thanking MK, and everyone else that contributes to this GREAT FORUM. As has been said before, an Education that can be had Nowhere else! Thank You. --Just Cycling on Thru.
CyclingA Three Year Lurker #844799/6/02; 02:38:08

I would like to start off any postings that I may, from time to, do. By Thanking MK, and everyone else that contributes to this GREAT FORUM. As has been said before, an Education that can be had Nowhere else! Thank You. --Just Cycling on Thru.
45 SouthNew Zealand news headline#844809/6/02; 03:11:08

USA & British aircraft have attacked Iraq in biggest raid in over 4 years!?? . Has anybody heard if this is correct.
The CoinGuyHello Kiwi(45 South)#844819/6/02; 03:36:54

I read this article about an hour ago on The Drudge Report. Seems the NZ headline is correct.

The CoinGuy

BelgianOtmar Issing - Germany#844829/6/02; 03:47:52

The ECB wants "GROWTH" ! Central Bankers want to avoid panic and are constraining (!!!) the euro/dollar exchange rate for growth's sake ! The cartel has spoken.
Spartacus(No Subject)#844839/6/02; 04:12:22

sector (09/05/02; 10:38:14MT - msg#: 84412)

--IMF rules allow BOTH Central Banks to claim they EACH still own the swapped gold. This effectively hides the transaction in the same manner that Mahonia's "Loans" hid Enron's debt.--

Thanks for the reply.

Black BladeOil Price Rises and Gold Rebounds on News of US/UK Air Strikes#844849/6/02; 04:30:37

A joint mission of about 15 to 20 US and UK military aircraft attacked several sites in Iraq taking out regional headquarters and tracking sites. It appears that the "softening up" part of the campaign has begun. Crude oil is banging against $30/bbl again and Gold regains all earlier losses in overnight trading. Cap'n Tony Blair arrives today to meet with Dubya at Camp David to discuss war plans.

The USD has reversed slightly after having strengthened overnight against other currencies. Grains are higher on dwindling food and seed supplies as the drought continues. All eyes will be on August unemployment data (in about an hour). The "official" unemployment rate should rise back up to 6%.

In other news, it appears that phone records place Martha Stewart in a bad position. It appears that she has lied about not having been in contact with her Merrill Lynch broker and ImClone CEO Waksal just prior to the ImClone public announcement. The senate has indicated that she will be subpoenaed to testify before congress. It also drives a nail into Sam Waksal's coffin as he already tesytified that he did not have any conversation with Stewart. Can you say "perjury"? I knew you could. The corporate scandals are far from over.

It appears that it could be quite a volatile day on Wall Street today - at least it should be "entertaining".

- Black Blade

SpartacusAFGHANISTAN - introduction of new currency#844859/6/02; 04:57:46

KABUL, 5 Sep 2002 (IRIN) - In a major step towards restoring economic stability in the war-ravaged country, Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai in an address to the nation broadcast from the capital, Kabul, on Wednesday announced the introduction of new currency notes.
Outlining the reasons for the move, the governor of Afghanistan's Central Bank, Anwar ul-Haq Ahadi, told IRIN that the value of the current afghani was low, thereby rendering transactions difficult. At the existing currency rate, "10,000 afghanis are worth 25 [US] cents"," he said. "Henceforth, however, people will no longer have to carry bags full of money whenever they want to buy something."

Ahadi went on to say that the Central Bank [Da Afghanistan Bank] had not been in control of the printing of banknotes, and had therefore been unable to formulate a meaningful monetary policy. "We do not know how much money is in circulation now," he said. (Three different versions of the afghani are in circulation - all printed in Russia.)
The central bank's operations virtually ground to a halt after the fall of President Najibullah's government in 1992. The government of the mujahidin, which then took over, issued massive amounts of currency, much of it in notes of very high denominations, resulting in hyperinflation.

The banking system further contracted in 1996 when the Taliban captured Kabul and banned the collection and payment of interest. However, although these hardline Muslim militants controlled the headquarters of the central bank, they never succeeded in gaining control over the country's money supply.

Ahadi said he expected that with the introduction of the new currency notes the central bank would take control of the printing of money and engage in formulating a meaningful monetary policy - essential to the success Afghanistan's postwar reconstruction. "The bank would then be able to keep prices stable and maintain standard exchange rates for the currency," he explained.

Golden BearBelgian (msg#: 84476)#844869/6/02; 05:08:31

Greetings Sir Belgian,

I have been watching Hugh Hendry the last few months on CNBC Europe, and have been also impressed with his candor and insightful analysis... something which is all too rare on CNBC USA.

It also helps that he belongs to a hedge fund, where product does not need to be pushed onto an unsuspecting public.

However, I missed tonight's appearance, could you be so kind as to elaborate on his comments?

Many thanks in advance...

misetichU.S. Airlines Endured Sept. 11 Only to Find the `Pain Is Ahead'#844879/6/02; 05:34:24


By Mary Schlangenstein

Washington, Sept. 6 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. airlines have lost $9.7 billion in the year since terrorists destroyed four aircraft and 3,000 lives. About 82,000 jobs disappeared. US Airways Group Inc. sought bankruptcy protection and UAL Corp. may be next.

Those seeking brighter days may have a long wait as carriers begin a second wave of job cuts, overhaul operations to slash costs and prepare to pay more for airport security.

``The pain is ahead of us, not behind us,'' Delta Air Lines Inc. Chief Executive Officer Leo Mullin said in an interview.

Industrywide losses are forecast to exceed $5 billion this year because both air travel and fares have dropped since the Sept. 11 attacks. Increased customer- service fees, ticket taxes and security-gate obstacles may undermine any recovery in travel demand, and carriers will have to seek affordable war-risk insurance to replace an expiring government program.

``The pain is ahead of us, not behind us,''- can be applied not only to the airline industry - but consumers, corporate earnings, government debts

Got gold?

misetichGreenspan Admits Bubble, Ducks Responsibility: Caroline Baum-He knew it was a bubble all along.#844889/6/02; 05:45:01

In the traditional kick-off speech at Fed Camp, otherwise known as the Kansas City Fed's annual Jackson Hole Conference, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan admitted the late 1990s stock market boom was a bubble. Then he washed his hands of the whole thing.

``Bubbles are often precipitated by perceptions of real improvements in the productivity and underlying profitability of the corporate economy,'' Greenspan said. ``Investors then too often exaggerate the extent of the improvement in economic fundamentals. Human psychology being what it is, bubbles tend to feed on themselves.''

And where do they get the material to feed on, pray tell? Why, from the friendly central bank, which responds to increased credit demand by pumping out enough reserves to prevent interest rates from rising.
After all, who wants to be remembered in the history books as the Fed chairman who presided over the biggest asset bubble in the country's history? Much better to have ``Maestro'' in front of one's name, and a long list of accomplishments -- bailouts of speculators under the guise of avoiding systemic risk -- after it.
``The speech shows he's panicking,'' said Bill Fleckenstein, president of Fleckenstein Capital in Seattle. ``He's admitted we've gone from bubble to bust. Pretty soon, people will figure out that, based on the two previous asset bubbles that have burst -- the 1920s and Japan -- we're only one-fifth of the way through resolving the problem.''
Greenspan has clearly been working on bubbles, both in and out of the bathtub, for a long time. He finally put a concise collection of his thoughts down on paper to share with the luminaries gathered in the Grand Tetons to ponder the pressing issues of the day.

``We at the Federal Reserve considered a number of issues related to asset bubbles -- that is, surges in prices of assets to unsustainable levels,'' Greenspan said. ``As events evolved, we recognized that, despite our suspicions, it was very difficult to definitively identify a bubble until after the fact -- that is, when its bursting confirmed its existence.''
Funny, anyone who reads the transcripts of Fed meetings, released with a five- year lag, would find that statement disingenuous. In response to concerns about a stock market bubble raised by Fed governor Larry Lindsey at the Sept. 24, 1996 meeting, Greenspan acknowledged that ``there is a stock market bubble problem at this point'' and even conceded there were some reliable remedies.

``We do have the possibility of raising major concerns by increasing margin requirements,'' Greenspan said. ``I guarantee that if you want to get rid of the bubble, whatever it is, that will do it. My concern is that I'm not sure what else it will do.''

Sir Greenspan - the Maestro - gambled and lost

Got gold?

misetichIshihara Breaks Ranks With Banks-As the governor says ``We're responsible for public money, taxpayers' money, and we can't just let it go up in smoke.''#844899/6/02; 05:53:28


By David DeRosa
New Canaan, Connecticut, Sept. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Populist Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has another bee in his bonnet about Japanese banks. This time he's warning he may move public funds from Japanese banks to Citibank.

That's right, the governor of Tokyo -- who has written a book which some interpret as anti-American -- is ready to move deposits to an American bank. And not just any American bank, Citibank, an icon of American corporate culture.

Ishihara claims the Japanese banks are ``hiding'' problems. Well isn't that a huge news flash?

Mizuho Holdings Inc. is at the top of his attack list. Ishihara demands that Mizuho and other Japanese banks prove to him they are creditworthy. As the governor says ``We're responsible for public money, taxpayers' money, and we can't just let it go up in smoke.''

Japanese banks - how low before they will implode? Japanese housewives are shrewd - the are leading the way in buying PHYSICAL GOLD

Got gold?

Belgian@ Golden Bear : HH on CNBC in a nutshell#844909/6/02; 05:55:07

HH sees no profits in sight and is therefore very suspicious about every bout of misplaced optimism.
HH states that the FED (in particular) is bluntly and blatantly "intervening" into almost *ALL* markets and this was smartly confirmed by CNBC as to make it the more clear to their vieuwers. HH stated that the FED gave the BBs, hands free, on POG/Gold manipulation and that without this widely supported, cartel-action, POG could already easely have been valued at over 1.000$/ounce.

The resulting effect of having a HH on CNBC is the following : Small Investors will remain somewhat confident that CBs will use their invisible hand to support the stockmarkets and no need to rush to Gold, because it is "controlled" ! So, both HH and CNBC are scratching each other's back.

Therefore, with this understanding, I'm almost convinced that POG will have much more chances to explode, after the war, if and when the control of oil by the US should be succesfull. But there is mounting opposition by Euroland via labor in UK, against US's actions against ME-oil.
T. Blair's obedience towards Bush is highly ridiculed.
It wan't take long long before the general public will understand that the coming misery will be caused because of oil (again) and the question remains if all this is worth it. Note Yamani's 180° turn on POO > 100 $ because of devil S.Hussein. Even Tim Wood (hedgingweb) doesn't understand (doesn't want to understand) why POG hasn't run away.
Remember what TG said about the Gulf war and POG.
Otto Issing (Germany) even wants a lower euro (and lower Gold) as to let the dollar pull the (impossible) growth !

HH stressed on the fact that we live under the almighty invisible hand of the manipulating cartels for our own good and that free markets are only a dream.

That's why I dare to use the word "obscene" when indicating how ridiculously low, Gold is priced.

misetichIs the Jig Up for Appropriation-Backed Muni Bonds?The court is not about to declare those $10 billion in bonds null and void. The state will keep faith with its investors, and repay their obligations. Whatever action the court takes will be prospective, saying, for example, that the state must not sell any more debt like this after January 1, 2004. That will be a big problem for lawmakers who have gotten used to circumventing the will of the voters.#844919/6/02; 06:03:39

By Joe Mysak

New York, Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- In the municipal bond market, as investors know and New Jersey lawmakers will soon find out, there is credit risk, there is interest rate risk, and there is judicial risk.

The first two are easy to grasp. Investors have to be concerned about the financial condition of the municipality they loan money. They also should know that if they hold a bond with a 3 percent coupon, and all new bonds are being sold with 5 percent coupons, the value of their bond falls.

The last kind of risk, judicial, is the wild card. Most investors assume their bonds are legal. Every once in a while, a court, usually a supreme court, will take a look at a bond issue and decide that no, it isn't.

Something like that happened in New Jersey last week.
The state Supreme Court was asked -- by citizens concerned that the state's debt is out of control -- to decide the legality of bonds not approved by voters that are to be sold by the state for schools and repaid by annual appropriations.

The court decided they were legal, that the constitutional guarantee of a ``thorough and efficient'' education trumped the people's right to vote on bond issues.

The court also decided that the validity of more than $10 billion in bonds already sold by the state without voter approval for a variety of other purposes must be reargued before the court.

``Why is the court considering contract debt seriously now? Because the issue has come up so many times in the past, and hasn't been definitively answered,'' said John Hallacy, head of municipal research at Merrill Lynch & Co. ``They're also being pragmatic. Most people wouldn't have voted for the school debt, would they?''

Uncontrollable debt - massive debts accumulated in the last 20 years -
Coincentally in the last 20 years we have witnessed

A stock market bull
A bond market bull
A debt bull
A gold market bear

Its over - debt implosion- will take care of the first three

Fear will fuel a gold bull

Got gold?

silvercollectorsector#844929/6/02; 06:20:47

Interesting post. I am missing the 'blackmail' side of the story. What blackmail?

Are you suggesting the troops in Kuwait are 'sitting ducks' awaiting the 'first strike' thus giving the US a reason to attack Iraq and/or Iran? Provocation?


OZCNBC-London (Hendry)#844939/6/02; 06:26:55

@ Belgian and Golden Bear:
Just thought I would add the point that HH referred to the lawsuit in Boston without naming Reg Howe directly. That the judge threw the case out because the FED had the right to manipulate gold and currencies. CNBC Simon and Geoff said we will keep that in mind or something similar.

Al FulchinoGandalf#844949/6/02; 06:31:52

Gandalf the White (09/05/02; 22:11:41MT - msg#: 84464)
Yes, Sir Al --- You do make sense !
BUT, I and the Hobbits are trying to learn about all aspects of TECHNICAL things that will win the WAR to FREE GOLD

me: That is the type of thinking that would worry , better said it never has been strictly technical. It is people that will free it. With all the technical aspects that people want to crow about regarding silver and gold, fiat has still acted as money. So it cannot be counted on to wait for just the technical aspects. The danger is of a forum or thought process being fed to others that is trying to be sterile and claim that all results can be analyzed at a lab.

more later. regards.

misetichJapan's Sakakibara sees crisis, yen range 116- 121#844959/6/02; 06:34:01


"A financial crisis is unavoidable," Sakakibara told Reuters in an interview on the Malaysian resort island of Pangkor Laut, where he is due to address an international conference.

"It could happen this month, three to six months time, but sooner or later it will happen," Sakakibara, known as Mr Yen because his comments in currency markets are closely followed, said.
"Only structural reforms can help, but the current leadership does not have the resolve. They are just muddling along."

He said the government should refrain from intervention in the stock market, which has plumbed 19-year lows this week.

"They have already done it once, you can only do it once," he said, adding that there were no effective weapons to combat Japan's problem of deflation.

"Japan has already exhausted all macro policies."

Sooner or later it will happen -

Gold get some!

Got gold?

Al FulchinoPS#844969/6/02; 06:34:25

freeing gold is more like a marriage than and if you try taking your spouse to a technical party only, one of you will go stir crazy
Black BladeUnemployment Rate Declines#844979/6/02; 06:41:16

Strange - the unemployment rate declined from 5.9% to 5.7% and July added 67,000 jobs (revised from 6,000). I guess McDonald's was hiring. Anyway, Wall Street likes it so we should see a rocket ride at the start. Many expected the rate to rise to 6% but instead everyone is back to work and and earning more according to the BLS. Hmmm...

Gold and petroleum are higher as well. Gold is over $320 an ounce and oil at about $30/bbl. There will be a lot of interesting spin on these numbers.

- Black Blade

Golden Bearre: Belgian (msg#: 84490)#844989/6/02; 06:42:24

Thank you for the recap and your deep (as always) analysis of the ulterior motives between the lines...

Being a relative newcomer to the "Gold Wars", it is trying at times to understand these alternate paths down the golden trail (and their possible implications) and I personally appreciate the patience you display in imparting you wisdom for the benefit of all here. It must also be said once again that without our fine hosts, the dissemination of this wisdom would not be available anywhere near as freely, making this forum as precious as the physical it represents...

Your statement:

"...The resulting effect of having a HH on CNBC is the following : Small Investors will remain somewhat confident that CBs will use their invisible hand to support the stockmarkets and no need to rush to Gold, because it is "controlled" ! So, both HH and CNBC are scratching each other's back..."

The gravity of this statement has only just registered in my mind, and my understanding is that as Jim Sinclair stated recently, this manipulation against the primary trend, backed by technicals AND fundamentals will be a losing game for the cartel, since never has this kind of control been successful in the past. You also have just stated as much, and increases the urgency for those aware enough to realize that the present opportunity to purchase physical at "obscene" discount to "value" is fading away...

My best to you Sir...

Golden BearFrom Richard Russell's market comment today, on another forum...#844999/6/02; 06:47:07

"...As for the stock market, we've just had the first 90% downside day. What this 90% day signifies is that the stock market is now open to, and readying itself for -- all-out panic.

I think where we are now is on track for the wide-open panic phase of this bear market. Note, I did not say a panic moment or a panic day, I said a panic phase. The panic phase could take a week or a few weeks or a few months.

Before the panic has ended, stocks will be knocked to their knees, consumers will be in shock, the housing bubble will have burst as will the auto-buying bubble, the July 23 lows will be history, and the "A" wave of this bear market will finally have come to an end.

When the panic phase ends, investors and speculators will be in shock, and the stock market will appear to be shattered -- torn apart, literally in pieces.

That will give us the most "sold-out" market in years. This sold out market will set the base for the corrective (upside) wave "B" of this bear market. The "B" should be an upside whopper, and it should carry well into next year. After this corrective "B" leg will come the final "C" leg -- but I'll talk about that when the time comes.

Question -- "Russell, why do you think the coming panic will be so severe?

Answer -- Ironically, the reason I believe it will be so severe is that it has been preceded by the largest load of misplaced bullishness, across-the-board denial, trash talk, and Wall Street baloney, that I have ever seen. It has been preceded by weeks and months of misguided optimism and ignorance concerning the meaning of the primary bear trend.

Instead of recognizing that this is a bear market and therefore preparing for major trouble, the US government has been spending its head off, states and cities have been running up huge deficits, business has loaded up on debt, and consumers have been buying as if a bull market is just starting.

All of this lays the groundwork for shock, surprise and horrendous losses. Frankly, I can't remember a situation like this in the half century that I've been watching markets.."

Tommy PAttack on Iraq#845009/6/02; 06:55:53

Here we go boys!!!
Cavan Man39,000 jobs????.....#845019/6/02; 06:56:45

That's a tick on a rhino's rear quarter panel.
Golden BearOZ (msg#: 84493) CNBC-London (Hendry)#845029/6/02; 06:59:58

Thanks for the additional information, amazing how truth can be spun to suit one's particular point of view...

This will all be a distant memory, when Gold, begins her march in all her glory, burning all the confetti (your rubbing off on me Belgian!) in its path.


White RoseBirthday Contest -- $$$326.00$$$#8450309/06/02; 08:23:51

Gold is on the rise. It is making another attempt to cross the $330 line. I do not see it getting across by the end of next week.

I think there are more and more signs to the sophisticated players that the whole system is breaking down. "A move to gold is quite logical", as Mr. Spock of Star Trek would have had to explain to the "Enterprise" crew as to why they did so poorly on their Star Fleet 401k's (and why all the Vulkans did so well).

Lets hope the "Next Generation" of investors do better.

Cavan ManBush Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine#8450409/06/02; 08:28:44

"We have a right to secure the supply of oil for the US at any cost. We will define what that cost is."

Folks, we had a chance 30 years ago to begin the lengthy process of weaning ourselves from the ME tete. We didn't do it.

The first gulf war was about oil and the second gulf war is about oil. Don't kid yourselves. Don't hide behind Old Glory.

Senator Carl Levin said yesterday, in response to a direct question from a reporter concerning his position on the thorny Iraq issue (and I paraphrase):

1. If Iraq was complicit in 9-11 or if it can be proved that Iraq has participated in past terror attacks on the US, WE SHOULD WHACK THEM.

2. If it is a fact that Iraq is planning to attack the US either directly or indirectly, WE SHOULD WHACK THEM.

Otherwise, probable cause is NOT a reason to trump up a rationale for unilaterally invading a sovereign nation.

I agree with Mr. Levin and BTW, I have no party affiliation. I am simply a friend of humanity. I admit to being a Teddy Roosevelt liberal; an advocate of a "square deal" for all Creation.

My best to the forum and our kind host. I have other work to be about. Good luck to all as AU will rise though we may not appreciate the context of corresponding events.

I have learned much here and I thank you all.

God Bless America.
America, bless God.
God Bless all here.
Kyrie Eleison....CM

sector@ silvercollector About the "Black Mail" word#8450509/06/02; 08:40:08

It was used by the President yesterday for the first time the ongoing war discussions as a reason to invade Iraq.

His WMD arguments have not been suffucient and indeed the whole run-up to war has apparently been poorly handled and entirely haphazard by the Administration.

My supposition is that he may already HAVE a black mail threat in hand and that he is just waiting to reveal it hoping that his detractors will come around ["Get out of Israel or else we destroy New York on 9/11 with our (Fill in the blank)].

Of course if an attack occurs on 9/11/2002 then the opposition will melt and GWB looks like a genius. It all will still be about oil.

Also of note is the Al Jazzera interview with two top Al Qaeda military-type minions the second half of which will be broadcast on September 12th.

The timing of that taped interview should raise trepidation.

We can be sure they won't be talking about the latest Brittany Spears MTV videos.

MKGolden Bear, Belgian#8450609/06/02; 09:08:28

Following up on your statement:

"You [Belgian] also have just stated as much, and increases the urgency for those aware enough to realize that the present opportunity to purchase physical at "obscene" discount to "value" is fading away..."

- - - - - -

In the late 1960s, early 1970s an opera-loving intellectual and market analyst had published two books which would later change the face of the American investment scene. In them, he proclaimed an end to the fixed-exchange regime -- the lynchpin of the post World War II Bretton Woods international monetary agreement. He boldly stated -- at the risk of being demonized by the mainstream press and the politicos -- that this system would collapse of its own weight, that the equity markets would immediately follow thereafter and that the Western economies would be tested beyond anything they had experienced since the great depression. He also stated that purchasing gold at the controlled $35 price would be viewed in the near future as the greatest investment opportunity of that generation's lifetime.

As it turned out, it was. Those two books -- titled "You Can Profit from the Coming Devaluation" and "You Can Profit from the Coming Monetary Crisis" -- became best-sellers and a profound influence on a young man with strong interest in the financial markets and a deep concern about where the country was headed. Having just escaped university life with intellectual software inexplicably uncorrupted, those treatises played a significant role in my entering the gold business in 1973 and my politics for a lifetime. I am certain they would still play well for anyone wanting to gain a thorough grasp of the cause and effect of monetary/poltical economy -- assuming you could still find a copy. Harry Browne -- the author -- went on to assume much deserved guru status among investors as just about everything that he said would happen did happen right down to the gold price rising exactly 25 times its $35 benchmark to $875 during the decade which followed.

Now we stand a similar opportunity 30 years later -- at the 30th anniversary of my being introduced to the comforts of gold ownership and the thinking of Harry Browne. Buying gold now -- in the low three hundreds -- will be viewed a decade from now as the opportunity of a lifetime. The titles to the two books can be taken as direct personal advice: You can profit from the coming devaluation. You can profit from the coming monetary crisis. The similarities between the two eras is striking and have been cited by more than one observant commentator. Though this time around the "devaluation" and "monetary crisis" will occur de facto rather than de jure. . . THE RESULTS WILL BE THE SAME. Only this time around, it may not be so easy for the "system" to climb out of the hole its dug for itself in any acceptable time-frame. The excesses may be too great; the lack of oversight too eggregious; the contemptible greed too institutionalized. In other words, the effects of this Bubble may be with us for a very long time.

Gold ownership in the low $300s will prove to be the investment of a lifetime -- not so much for the profits it MIGHT generate but for the hard-earned capital it WILL preserve

18KRules of Thumb#8450709/06/02; 09:15:00

One of the things I learned early on in my (always continuing) gold education was the rule of thumb that an ounce of gold should be able to purchase a quality men's suit. Recently I ran across a similar "rule of thumb" for copper - that a pound of copper should be able to buy a loaf of bread. I was wondering if any of the more experienced members of the forum knew of other metals "rules of thumb" (i.e. an ounce of silver should buy X, a pound of iron should buy Y).

I've only posted once or twice in my year-plus lurking here, but would like to thank everyone, especially our host, for freely sharing something worth more than gold - wisdom.

Kodie18K - Rules of thumb #8450809/06/02; 09:28:49

If that's the case, gold is under valued by about 150.00, but "quality" is relative I guess.
Golden BearMK (msg#: 84506)#8450909/06/02; 09:49:11

Sir MK, thanks for sharing your personal career anecdotes - I find it fascinating to hear what shapes the life of a person to go down their chosen path...

Your further analysis has much merit, but in the back of my mind, there nags a small seed of contention, planted by none other than Mr Robert Prechter. He is calling for a deflationary bust where gold will fall and the value of cash will skyrocket.

This seems implausible on first thought, as the printing presses are running at a maniacal pace. However is it possible that this Debtberg, as Belgian calls the current state of monetary affairs, could be destroyed at a velocity which is greater than the pace of printing more confetti? This would theoretically lead to scarcity of cash thus boosting its worth, and voila, the evolution of Prechter's scenario...

Hyperinflationary bust, or Deflationary bust, which will it be?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts...

RobotGuyHEY KIDS!!#8451009/06/02; 10:12:13

Nice to see gold climbing a little bit once again. Hope all is well, and hope you stick to your investments!



USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc.Gold today... because you never know what tomorrow will bring.#8451109/06/02; 10:31:43


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MKGolden Bear. . .#8451209/06/02; 10:49:01

Your question:

"Hyperinflationary bust, or Deflationary bust, which will it be?"

My Response:

That's exactly what I was thinking when I said:

"Gold ownership in the low $300s will prove to be the investment of a lifetime -- not so much for the profits it MIGHT generate but for the hard-earned capital it WILL preserve."

I would add that it doesn't matter to the gold owner if the current unfolding debacle resolves itself in inflation or deflation. Gold will protect against either and no matter in which order they occur. To the well-hedged portfolio, the inflation-deflation argument is a sideshow. What's important to understand is that the current economic milieu isn't resolve itself through some sort of a miracle (although the propaganda artists might have us believe otherwise). Ultimately, any economic catastrophe ends in asset destruction.

Though I have great respect for Robert Prechter, particularly his work on the Elliott Wave as a reflection of human nature -- a behaviorist (and an interesting one)*, if you will -- my view is that fiat-based economies are prone to inflation followed by deflation (as an antidote) and gold-based economies are prone to deflation followed by inflation as the antidote. This is a fiat economy and though the current situation may resolve itself outside that parameter (anything is possible), to the portfolio holder the question is essentially academic -- AS IT SHOULD BE if the portfolio is properly constructed. Though I must say I enjoy the conversation on the subject as enjoyable as anyone at this forum.

After that one might weigh his or her portfolio toward either inflation or deflation, but that weighing is strictly speculative. Mr. Prechter has long advocated the deflationary scenario. It is a speculative positioning. Equally strong arguments have been advanced for inflation even hyperinflation.

Your guess is as good as mine.

History has shown that

-- in an inflationary scenario gold rises at a higher rate than other commodities as investment money pushes on an already delicate supply

-- in a deflationary scenario gold tends to hold its own, or fall at a lesser rate than other investments, thus preserving capital.

As you can see gold is the winner in either case -- and that's why it remains the ideal portfolio insurance.

The essential fact of life in the gold market is that the price of gold has been restrained for what appears to be political reasons. This hearkens back to both of our earlier posts. As gold owners, we will take advantage of the unfolding scenario no matter which way the ball bounces.

* A few years ago George Cooper and myself were talking about the Prechter analysis (We have both studied his works) and the question came up where his mentor AJ Frost had the EW count. So we called Mr. Prechter who graciously forwarded Frost's last known chart count and put us in contact with Mr. Frost. You might be surprised to know that Frost had the graph numbered differently and proposed an economic situation the opposite of RP. His charting predicted an inflationary resolution and gold in either the beginning stages of a wave 5 super spike or the tail end of the "c" corrective wave. Unfortunately, Mr. Frost was ill at the time and unable to elaborate. All we have is his original count which was published in News & Views a few years ago.

Mr GreshamCavan Man#8451309/06/02; 10:58:38

If that was your Goodbye message, then farewell, brother. I hope it was not, but I seem to be able lately to only tune in for a morning skim of the Forum, and a weekend catchup if lucky. If you've been involved in any controversies while I was away, I'm sure you got the best of 'em! ;)

One health recommendation I've returned to over the years is a News Fast. I've been a news junkie off and on through my life, and occasionally sanity compels me to veer off away from the printed stuff and watch green leaves blow in the breeze and butterflies float and stuff like that ('specially these last days of Summer!).

The WAR stuff is like that. Stay away from it if you know what's healthy for ya! It'll drive ya crazy faster than just about any "news" I know of. You're being played to, or played, and this Forum already has a leg up on seeing through all of that...

Actually, my image of this place has always been something like sitting around the cracker barrel at MK's General Store, jawin' away over th' State of Things and "money" in particular. (Don't underestimate how much of USA history has been spent in JUST that IDENTICAL topic!)

(Hopefully, we attract some bizness in for the store now and then, or at least not scare any away!)

The arguments may come and go, but the cast of characters talking it out here remains largely the same.

That's why I'm sad to see one of us go, and always hope it's not a permanent withdrawal. There ought to be an icon or registry or something that says of each character "Still here, reading and listening occasionally, even if I'm off busy with other things now..."

AndúrilGolden Bear, Mr. Prechter has a lot to learn.#8451409/06/02; 11:06:08

Until that comes he is entitled to his thin opinion you stated in your post:

"Mr Robert Prechter. He is calling for a deflationary bust where gold will fall and the value of cash will skyrocket."

Do not let yourself be troubled by the speed of the printing press maybe falling short against the velocity of 'debtberg' destruction. These two are horses in different pastures with no need to race.

How fast can the debtberg destruction run, you wonder? Not fast enough. FedWire is faster. So fast indeed it is ALREADY THERE!

HenriGeneral Hugh Casey doesn't mince words#8451509/06/02; 11:13:01

Found this while working on another project...This man's work in the phillipines pre-dates the period of time when the Japanese hoarded their "black" gold there...Mc Arthur was also there and apparently knew much about the the "lay of the land" before the Japanese occupation.
The dialogue beginning on page 141 or so is very interesting.

Somewhere in the discussion he speaks of how recovering countries should structure their new currencies but I can't find it now. Very wise perspective as I recall.

MKAdditional thought. . .#8451609/06/02; 11:18:18

There's a third scenario beyond inflation and deflation and one we might well consider:

A combination of the two -- as in the Contagion scenarios that have run consecutively through the Asian and now South American economies. A melange of unemployment, bankruptcies, failed financial institutions, inflation, deflation -- in other words complete economic breakdown a la Argentina.

In this analysis, the very first victim of the Contagion was the United States in the 1970s, early 19080s (which exhibited the same symptoms -- this odd combination of inflation and deflation) with the Asian and South American breakdowns following essentially the same model during the 1990s.

Now it may be coming full circle. . . .

Socrates964DEFLATION#8451709/06/02; 11:22:45

I agree with Doug Casey, who points out that the deflationary scenario depends on the rest of the world maintaining faith in the U.S. dollar as a medium of exchange/reserve currency.

All the political signs point the other way (from Middle Eastern oil producers talking about pricing oil in EUR, to talk about Islamic dinar, to shifts in CB reserves, and informal evidence that the Euro is gaining share in the black market).

Once the US bond market has completed what appears to be a blow-off top(say 10-year yielding 3% or so), you have to assume ferocious rallies in equity markets or there will be no fundamental case for any foreign investor keeping any funds in US$.

All this deflation talk seems to me to be nothing more than illusion on the part of US economists (whether conscious or not) that the dollar is an absolute measure of value.

This is redolent of 1971 - when Nixon moved off the gold standard, convinced that Japanese/German complaints about exchange rates were nothing more than self-serving whingeing and that there was really nothing fundamentally wrong with US policy. Everyone knows what happened next.

I don't mean to launch into an anti-American rant, but successive American governments seem incapable of understanding why they need to respect the rules of the international economy and how they could possibly be doing anything wrong. My reading of history is that they have learnt nothing in the last 30 years.

The HoopleMK#8451809/06/02; 11:59:36

Isn't inflation/deflation combined what we currently have? I see raging inflation in domestic-based product and service. Insurance (health, liability,auto and property) , taxes, fuel costs, food are going up double digits yet fire sales exist on glutted corporate planes, durables, electronics and anything imported made from slave wages. The UPC scanners so prevalent today at most stores mask the steady march of day to day inflation. Only pricing at the gas pumps remain as vestiges of when you could see inflation on a daily basis. There will always be products that collapse in price if non- essential or over produced. I don't think that should be confused with inflation which is debasement of money supply induced. The only way gold would collapse if it were truly undesired. That seems implausable and in light of M-3 explosion impossible. Prechter wave counts showing gold collapse seem out of touch. Gold is not another widget, it is a proxy for the fiat masquerading as money. When my health insurance premium declines 70% is when I'll believe gold could fall to $160. Neither will happen IMO.
kasperjackGross Speaks Out On Dow#8451909/06/02; 13:02:01

Reuters Market News
Bond investor Bill Gross says Dow 5000 looks
Friday September 6, 1:28 pm ET

By Jonathan Stempel

NEW YORK, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Bill Gross, widely considered the world's most
powerful bond investor, said 5000 is a fair level for the Dow Jones industrial
average, and that bonds will "for years to come" be the best performing asset
The head of a major bond fund is totally fed up with the Potemkin facade.

OperativeHow Soon Before They Paint Gold As A Terrorist Tool?#8452009/06/02; 13:11:28

The article ends with a qoute that says the ultimate goal will be achieved when Americans are safe & secure. That makes a nice sound bite for the evening news, but at what cost to our freedom(s) will this be accomplished?
sectorWorries about Japan insurers grow as stocks plunge#8452109/06/02; 13:27:02

Reuters Market News
Friday September 6, 5:05 am ET

By Mariko Hayashibara

TOKYO, Sept 6 (Reuters) - Fears are growing about the health of Japanese life insurers as the latest plunge in Tokyo share prices threatens to eat into their capacity to make payouts.

Tokyo's Nikkei stock average (^N225 - News) touched a 19-year low this week. It has lost about 19 percent since March, damaging most insurers' solvency margin ratios, the key gauge of their ability to pay out on policy obligations.

The ratio shows the amount of assets held against the risk of large-scale payouts in the event of disasters or a sharp decline in prices of financial products. The authorities can order corrective action if the level falls below 200 percent.

Japan's financial watchdog, the Financial Services Agency (FSA), is not planning to relax requirements.

"At this point, we are not thinking about any measures," an FSA official.

"It's no question that weak stock prices are negative for their business, but I don't think any insurers' solvency margin falls below 200 percent at the current stock price level," the official told Reuters.

Taking the current levels of the Nikkei and broader TOPIX index into account, Brett Hemsley, insurer analyst at Fitch Ratings in Tokyo, said some insurers' solvency margin ratios were likely to have inched close to, or even below, 300 percent.

Analysts consider that a worryingly low level because some insurers have gone insolvent in recent years even though their ratios were above the officially required 200 percent level.

More trouble in the land of the rising sun.

One big insurance company failure can lead to major banking problems as they are intertwined.

As for the good Bill Gross, his belief that bonds will be the place to land for many years...oh?

How long can the companies that issue the bonds last in a combined inflation and deflationary atmosphere? Recall that there are only THREE AAA rated bonds of all listed currently for sale.

Ten years ago the US boasted 58 AAA rated companies, today there are 8.

Since there is a huge intertwining effect [Derivatives] here as well as in Japan [Real estate] it seems to me that bonds should be the LAST place on put their hard-earned money.

darkhorse(No Subject)#8452209/06/02; 13:27:28

Operative, re: the article you linked that ended with "...the safety and security of our citizens." Animals caged up in our zoos are relatively safe and secure, but I'd be willing to bet (Dr. Doolittle would be helpful here) that 3 out of 4 of 'em ain't too happy about it...the fourth one would most likely be a socialist anyway.
TownCrierReuters reports in black and white 'Gold price could hit $1000/oz'#8452309/06/02; 14:01:03,4186,2-8-133_1253791,00.html

London - The gold price could more than treble to US$1000 per ounce if Western stock markets suffer from a 20-year bear market, according to Hugh Hendry, manager of the Odey Continental European fund.

"I think there are some circumstances where the gold price could go to $1000. Logically you could construct an argument where the gold price goes up by several times its current value," Hendry said.

...Hendry, a partner at Odey Asset Management, said it was ridiculous that some market commentators think shares will bounce back in the next year or so.

"We've seen the biggest bull market in history, and history demonstrates that the intensity of any bull market is more than matched by the intensity of a bear market. The S&P is on 37 times earnings. Bear markets end when stocks are on six to seven times," he said.

...His bullish outlook on gold is partly due to the fact that many gold mining companies have stopped hedging against a fall in gold prices and are taking a positive view on prices for the first time in many years.

---------(click url for full text)---------

Randy's note: The thing that I found most striking about this article was the candid discussion about the *potential* fate of physical gold in bullion form. Here is is, excerpted in full:
However, he is less keen on holding gold bullion, saying that gold bars have been confiscated by governments in the past and this could happen again if a government felt its currency were under threat.

The United States banned private ownership of gold bars from the early 1930s to 1971, when the country got rid of the gold standard so that dollars were no longer backed by gold. France took a similar policy in the early 18th century.

A spokesperson for the World Gold Council said such a move would be unlikely these days as markets move towards further de-regulation.

"You can never anticipate what any government is going to do, but I would think it would be extremely unlikely," she said.

As long as congress is in session, you can just never be too certain about anything. That goes for "nationalizing" a mine through special taxation, too. That's why MK and the fine folks at Centennial also caution investors about a prudent diversification WITHIN your gold diversification -- to include the holding of the pre-1933 class of coinage for as long as it can be obtained at near-bullion prices.

Give them a call this afternoon. I know they can help you work these things out to your best benefit and arrive at a diversification plan that fits your needs and your sense of personal style.


TownCrierRelated to my previous article#8452409/06/02; 14:16:17

If, in fact, the government DID decide that it would be in some manner expedient to ban bullion, and even if they did decide to leave the mines untouched (i.e., no taxation), how on earth would anyone in the market expect the equity value of mining companies to benefit? I mean, who would be buying the mine's newly produces bullion? And at what price? After all, the government would have closed the door on many of their free-market customers. Think about it.

Surely the price of shares in breweries and distilleries didn't skyrocket during the implementation of prohibition?!

If, in fact, bullion were banned, I think it would be far more likely to see the price of pre-1933 coinage soar far and away above the price of the mines -- be they taxed or not.

Just food for thought. You always want to be sure you've considered all sides, and then have portions of your portfolio dedicated to those various contingencies. Sometimes you can kill two birds with one stone.


sectorHyperinflation: Japan's next problem?#8452509/06/02; 14:38:36

Jesper Koll Special to The Daily Yomiuri

Stock markets around the world are crashing and a lot of hard-earned financial wealth is being destroyed. Clearly, this is serious business that affects all of our lives. According to one survey, at the end of last year, more than two-thirds of U.S. baby-boomers still thought they could retire within the next two years due to the assumed strong performance of their financial investments. By this summer, another survey finds that more than half of the baby-boomers now expect they will have to work for at least another 10 years before they can afford retirement.

Of course, the exact degree of accuracy of these sorts of surveys can always be disputed, but the basic fact remains: The global stock market drop is destroying wealth and, if sustained, signals a coming reduction in the standard of living.

Japan has been a front-runner in the global wealth destruction game. By my back-of-the-envelope calculation, the current money amount of wealth destroyed by real estate prices falling back to 1982 levels and the stock market plunging to 20-year lows is more than the total wealth destroyed by the Great Kanto Earthquake of 1923 and the Pacific War combined.

Yet despite this, the country appears to be doing fine. Nowhere is there any meaningful sense of crisis. Yes, unemployment is rising and bankruptcies are creeping higher, but at the same time luxury sales continue to rise, a record number of new condominiums and office buildings are being built and Japan remains unchallenged as the world's largest creditor nation. Wealth destruction--yes. Economic stagnation--yes. Crisis--no!

For an economist there is a very straightforward explanation for this apparent mismatch. Again and again, Japan has borrowed from the future to postpone the inevitable decline in living standards that is forced by the collapse of yen-based asset markets. From my perspective, the worry from this point on is not that some one-off trigger event will spark a real crisis. The worry is that the inevitable paying back of all the money borrowed will increase the drag on growth. After all, rising debt repayments will reduce the economy's ability to invest in the future. Japan's future outlook is clouded by a high probability of stagnation and "muddle through." If the past 10 years are any guide for the future, no one should ever underestimate the capacity of the Japanese people to tolerate and endure stagnation.

What could spark a real crisis in Japan? I think there are three main risk scenarios: capital flight, a current account deficit, and hyperinflation.

Capital flight is the most serious of all the risk scenarios. Japan has a massive savings surplus and, at the same time, has no non-yen currency liabilities. Japan owes nothing to the world and, de facto, all its debt is funded by its own savers. This works fine as long as Japanese savers have full trust in their currency and the institutions that intermediate the flow of savings into investments.

If this trust breaks, savers would rush to convert out of yen-savings instruments and into dollar or euro assets. It would be like pulling out the carpet from underneath the financial system, similar to what happened in Argentina recently or Indonesia a couple of years ago.

To be sure, the probability of accelerated capital flight is extremely low. For example, even with 10 years of a banking crisis in place, private bank deposits are still growing at a steady 2 percent to 3 percent pace. While there is some concern over smaller regional banks, the overall banking system is flush with liquidity and sees steady increases in deposit funding.

As long as this persists, the banks will use these funds to buy government bonds, with the increased powers of regulatory authorities openly encouraging stepped-up purchases of Japanese government bonds (JGBs) and other yen assets. A domestic "buyers strike" for JGBs is thus kept in check. More importantly, Japanese savers have a very high home currency preference. They live their lives here, have yen mortgages to pay back and have an absolutely overwhelming desire to retire here in Japan.

The second risk scenario is Japan loosing its status as a creditor nation. If Japan started running a current account deficit, then foreigners would become the marginal buyer of yen assets in general, yen government debt in particular. Foreigners buy yen assets against non-yen liabilities. So they will inevitably demand a currency risk premium before buying more JGBs. In addition, foreign investors will demand a credit risk premium because for them the credit rating by the global rating agencies actually matters.

So a current account deficit would result in a temporary "buyers strike," pushing up bond yields. Domestic portfolios would suffer capital loss and, more importantly, Japanese corporations would see an increase in their own cost of debt, which would inevitably push many of them into bankruptcy.

Hyperinflation seems like the most far-fetched of all the risks. After all, deflation has been with Japan for almost three years and is still accelerating. However, from a medium- to long-term perspective, hyperinflation risks are actually rising in Japan. The reason is the more and more aggressive monetization of public debt by the Bank of Japan. This year, about 40 percent of the government's new borrowing will be purchased by the central bank--up from barely 15 percent last year.

Why does this raise inflation risks? For an economist, inflation stems from too much money chasing too few goods. With the Bank of Japan raising aggressively the amount of money in circulation--they buy the JGBs with money printed--sooner or later there will be more money chasing too few goods.

Right now, the combination of massive excess capacity and idle showrooms, together with consumers' reluctance to spend, makes it seem far-fetched to talk about too much money chasing too few goods. Indeed, the only exceptions where this is true seems to be maybe too much money chasing too few safety deposit boxes and futons. However, this can change very fast and very unpredictably.

Of course, there are other country risk scenarios that one could consider, like a trade war with Asia, oil prices at 60 dollars per barrel, or a terrorist attack on Japan.

But from an economist's perspective, these three are the main ones. Indeed, the most likely one may very well be hyperinflation, at least according to economic textbook. The usual problem is, unfortunately, that economists can tell you how it will happen, but not when. But one thing is for sure--Japan's standard of living has a high probability of declining. Hyperinflation would just be the most extreme form of this as it cuts the purchasing power of the peoples wealth very sharply, very quickly.
Koll is chief economist of Merrill Lynch Japan.

Aside from a colossal conflict of interest, this Merrill guy displays high skill in the art of denial. He's like the lung cancer patient seeing his abnormal chest film filled with white, softball sized tumors and suggesting that the x-ray tech mislabeled the id card. "There's no crisis" "Wealth destruction-yes but crisis?-no".

The Japanese know they are being taken to the cleaners. The Nomura door-to-door sales people are doused with dirty dishwater thrown by irate house wives.

For this mope to suggest that the mass hypnosis of continued equity ownership and the Japanese bubble mind-set will continue is more evidence of the huge brokerage house disconnect from reality.

BelgianThe US$ and wars#8452609/06/02; 14:55:12

Any perception of world in-stability, always resulted into a dollar-rush for safety. It was for the first time, on 9/11, that fear resulted in a dollar-flight. The same is happening and further expected with mounting tensions on Iraq and ME. What has changed, is the existance of the euro, more suitable as an alternative to the previous Swiss franc. But this windfall interest for the euro is not going to solve the globe's economic contraction and therefore looked at with mixed feelings. A dollar flight into the euro, not accompagnied with a proportionate growing/expanding Euroland economy. Job for both US/EMU central banks to manage the exchange rate with brakes.

But can they win against panicking financiers, commanding the gambling fiat flows in their relentless search for profit ?

During the initial stages of the coming war, w'll see moves in the ***paper** price for Gold with relatively slow uptake of physical. If the US is succesfull in a blitzkrieg...the paper-move will quickly settle down (unwind) and POG might be tamed once more. If full scale resistant terror is able to turn a blitzkrieg into a dragging conflict of long duration...more physical uptake might accumulate critical mass with a prolonged flight out of the dollar. I think that this scenario is the most plausable. Russia is well aware that the US has colonizing ambitions on big parts of its resourcefull territories and will therefore complicate things in favor of the ME. China's attitude is unknown to me. Maybe someone else has more insights on their (China) stance towards this ME situation.

Anyhow, a US occupation of Iraqi oil-reserves will be met by much higher POO (35$ plus) for a prolonged period and entitled as another act/expression of terror against the westerenized part of the world. Short : A high degree of escalation !

We could even witness a relative strong dollar (around euro parity) with rising POG. And the dollar linked to the succes or failure of the US' war-actions. Up until the financial communities start to agree that no economic recovery is possible within a reasonable timeframe.

The US has been considered the globe's economic engine for the past decade. What if this same globe discovers that it is all over and blames it on the recklesness of the US instead of on ME terror ? Very difficult and risky times ahead imvho.

kasperjackBill Gross Complete Statement on Dow 5000#8452709/06/02; 14:55:39

Just click on Gross's latest. Sector, Bill Gross has a lot of money on the line. There are real world consequences for how he manages his money. His best effort perspective says much about how the bond fund managers expect to traverse the economic labyrinthe. A real captain running a real ship cannot throw his arms akimbo and abandon the ship, no matter how stormy the seas that lie ahead. Well.... many might retire before tshtf.................
TownCrierZimbabwe looking to expand its two-tier (price) gold market#845289/6/02; 15:05:29

Here's the latest news in this ongoing scheme -- a neat twist on the old post-London Gold Pool notion -- twisted insofar as the goverment is paying a tier price that is consistently HIGHER than the "market" tier. Something I often say on the street can be applied to the Reserve Bank in this case -- they "know what time it is".


The Herald (Harare) September 6, 2002 --

GOLD panners who are being integrated into the formal sector may benefit from the gold floor price support scheme if recommendations made by the Ministry of Mines and Mining Development sail through.

The gold floor price introduced by the Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe last year allows producers to earn a price higher than the ruling international price of the precious metal."It is proposed that, as a minimum, the price paid to small-scale miners be the same as that paid to producers who benefit from the gold floor price scheme.

"The business risk for gold trading should be transferred to the RBZ or any of its nominated agencies."


That "risk" in the eye of the beholder.


TownCrierFrom the USAGOLD NewsWire -- Oil, gold prices surge#845299/6/02; 15:12:01

NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Oil prices surged to their highest levels in a year and gold moved to fresh six-week highs in European trading Friday amid fears that a full scale attack was imminent against Iraq and as the first anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks approached.

"The war drums are pushing the price (of oil) higher, but the global market has been tightening since the second quarter and this will continue into the winter,'' said Leo Drollas of the Center for Global Energy Studies in London.

He predicted the Brent price would rise to near $30 a barrel by the end of the year even without an attack. Tough output curbs by the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries have coincided with a sharp recovery in global oil demand, which analysts expect to accelerate by the end of the year.

"Gold looks set to be supported and set to move higher as we approach the anniversary of the 9/11 attack on the U.S. and the expectations of an attack on Iraq intensify," said John Reade, metals analyst at UBS Warburg.

Gold's latest gains put the metal 17 percent higher than at this time last year, making it one of the strongest performing financial assets.

-------(see url for more)--------

Lock in prices and get your gold order in the pipeline today -- because you never know what tomorrow will bring.


PippinMK + Andùril on Prechter / deflation vs. inflation etc.#845309/6/02; 15:34:24

I'd like to add another question on this subject: till now at least, I was a believer in the little equation <prices multiplied by quantity equal monetary mass multiplied by velocity>. Sorry for the probably improper wording, but I'm translating from french :^D
Since the "amount of money" in circulation includes cash and credit, am I wrong in believing that a collapse of the "mountain of debt" would shrink the monetary aggregates - and therefore trigger deflation ? Not to speak about the probable impact on velocity ?

kasperjackThe Siberian Express#845319/6/02; 15:35:23

@ ******* Desk

In course of the current year Russia's
Saving Bank
(Sberbank) increased its reserves 10,5
of gold and 11
tons of silver

The Russian Central Bank is not the
only institution accumulating physical
stocks of gold and silver in Russia? Is
the practice more widespread and did
the directive come from Putin himself a
la the creation of a Russian gold coin
last summer, the what was it $13,000
gold coin the Russians are marketing

AndúrilPippin's deflation#845329/6/02; 16:27:49

Yes, price deflation would be the good theory IF there were a collapse of the mountain of debt. Velocity is impotent in the equation. It is derived by economists with time to spare after they have measured the prices and amounts that matter. The notion of velocity is no cause to any effect. Have you spend a dollar faster because it came to you as a hot potato? Did you read that person's mind? One does never know how long another held his money..."did this cash come from the top of the barrel or pulled from the old bottom of the stack?"

The price deflation theory is for thought only. You will not see it in practice. There is nothing in the relevant nature of these times that will allow this mountain to grow anywhere but up. If the mountain collapses, many banks will fall with it. Where is the political will to let this happen, when the prop of liquidity is so easily crafted?

Purchasing power will take a haircut. The banks will remain standing. Inflation is the order of business until nature takes a holiday.

AndúrilKnow that nature takes no holidays.#845339/6/02; 17:00:53

Fulke Greville, Baron Brooke [1554-1628]

-c. 1609-

Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound.

What meaneth nature by these diverse laws?
Passion and reason self-division cause.

It is the mark or majesty of power
To make offences that it may forgive;
Nature herself doth her own self deflower,
To hate those errors she herself doth give.

For how should man think that he may not do,
If nature did not fail and punish too?

Tyrant to others, to herself unjust,
Only commands things difficult and hard,
Forbids us all things which it knows is lust,
Makes easy pains, unpossible reward.

If nature did not take delight in blood,
She would have made more easy ways to good.

We that are bound by vows and by promotion,
With pomp of holy sacrifice and rites,
To teach belief in good and still devotion,
To preach of heaven's wonders and delights:

Yet when each of us in his own heart looks
He finds the God there far unlike his books.

R PowellInflation and deflation#845349/6/02; 17:08:23

Why is the question "Which one"? Why not both? Or a mixture like surf and turf.

Haven't we recently seen stock prices deflating on the Cow, Nasdog and S+P while tangible goods (necessities of modern life) are increasing in price. Corn, soybeans, cocoa, OJ, sugar, gold, oil, especially wheat and now even coffee are trading for higher prices. Wheat is now over $4/bushel and climbing. The CRB is projecting higher prices which will probably lift all commodities. If this continues there will be no doubt about inflation in commodity terms. How then will inflation numbers be doctored to show none? Will the average loss on the typical 401K be factored in to lower the index? There was some discussion a while ago about an intended effort (I hate the word conspiracy) to keep ALL commodity prices low. Hey guys, if there's not enough wheat then there's nothing short of price controls that's going to lower prices.

Can't we see equity prices deflate while the price of anything grown, manufactured or mined goes up. Perhaps during this time real estate prices will do both, up and then down.
They'll be no holding POG or POS down if the CRB blows wide open the lie of "no inflation". Thoughts?
Hey, hey and hey! It's Friday.
Happy weekend!!

TrapperSir Pippin#845359/6/02; 17:17:29

Re; Deflation

I belive your ideas are correct. Here is my answer to the question (when I an asked). How much do you think an automobile, a house, or new funiture for the home would cost if you must pay cash for it. My guess is 20% to 50% less than credit prices. Just my thoughts, live small.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #845369/6/02; 18:21:01

UPDATE #7 (as of FRIDAY 17:17 Denver time 9/6/02)
FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.4s Change + $1.6


$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
"WHAT IS THAT" Sir Balzac is saying ?
He thought that the Contest was to end on THIS Friday's SETTLEMENT ?

Sierra MadreSomething tells me...#845379/6/02; 18:34:48

nothing at all is going to happen on 9/11/02. Nothing!

The next trading day, gold and oil will fall quite sharply, as the world breathes a collective sigh of relief. Gold will then resume its slow uphill battle.

A Jewish friend in N.Y., who is well connected, informed me that he had had a talk with an important personage, in his words, "higher than the President" (!) who assured him there would be "no war against Iraq". That this "war on Iraq" is all for public consumption in the U.S., not for real.

Is this believable? We shall have to wait and see. I sense that Pres. Bush has lost the moment for waging war; the public has become fed up with all the talk.

For what it's worth.


Chris PowellEurope is hearing that the gold price is being manipulated#845389/6/02; 18:48:51

Belgium's Financial Times and CNBC Europe
let people know that the gold price is being

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

ArcticfoxWasn't Bill Gross supposed to be on CNBC with Lou tonight...#845399/6/02; 18:55:17

I wonder if he was canned to be replaced with chearleaders due to his 5000 DOW article today. If so, all I can say is amazing. Actually, as I watched the show I realized that I was watching what appeared to be a half hour of old tape put together. They must have been scrambling to find anything to replace Gross's time.

Also, on Kudlow's Bulls vs Bears, there were no bearish quests asked to show up...and Kudlow actually slammed Gross at the end of the show stating that Gross doesn't understand what growth is anyway.

R PowellSierra Madre#845409/6/02; 19:47:30

Something tells me

Something reacted in me saying I certainly hope you are right about nothing happening on 9/11. Then all that will be needed is a little political spin (resumption of unhindered inspections?) so that George W can drop the issue while looking good. Or, the government can declare that all weapons, held by anyone, are potential threats (whether used or not) and declare war on the world and all U.S. gun owners registered or not. **
Gold and silver will do just fine even without wholesale man-made death. **
I received an e-mail from the CPM research folks today, my copy of the 2002 Silver Survey has been entrusted to the U.S. Postal Service. It's no longer brandy new so they dropped the price from $175 to 150. So, there we have have the answer- deflation from outrageously overpriced to merely grossly overpriced. They have some other publications, one for gold and one for silver- $3500 each!! I guess these must have the exact dates of the coming limit moves for our metals, or at least the winning lottery numbers for next month.

If there is anything in the Survey that hasn't already become known, I'll pass it along. I just want to take my study back to primary sources so I ponied up the 150.
Happy weekend

MKHoople#845419/6/02; 19:47:59

Your question:

"Isn't inflation/deflation combined what we currently have?"

My response:

Yes. That's an important observation, Hoople. What you describe is the "economics" we live in a fiat-based economy. Books have been written about it, but it really comes down nothing more complicated than that. Just as a virus can exist at low grade within a host until such time as the defenses are weakened to the point that the virus comes to full fruition, so are we running a low grade economic fever at the moment in the United States -- a low grade fever on the verge of becoming full blown disease. What will it take to come to full bloom? Attempting to discover those trigger mechanisms is what an information exchange prototype like this forum is all about. Keep in mind that Argentina at one time operated under what might have been described as a low grade fever. Now look what has happened. . . . . And it didn't take long once the wheels fell off.

When the Contagion came to full fruition in Asia and South America, it manifested all the preconditions of the lesser disease only on a greater scale. The stock markets didn't just adjust downward, they collapsed. The inflation rate didn't just rise, it skyrocketed. The unemployment rate and bankruptcies didn't just worsen, they went off the charts. And so on. . . . Do you remember the old Misery Index of the 1970s -- inflation and the unemployment rate added together -- made famous by Ronald Reagan? I would be willing to bet that it will not be long until it becomes a part of our daily discussion once again.

Thanks, Hoople. I wish you would play a greater role here. We would all benefit from your knowledge and understandings.

HopeingII$$$$$ 309.70 $$$$$#845429/6/02; 21:14:33

I believe in owning physical Gold for purely selfish
monetary reasons. I truly believe the POG is being
"managed", "controled", "manipulated", "supressed",
or any other number of adjectives (?) you want to use
to explain it's current price. Some day in the future
this losing proposition will fail and the POG will
explode to the upside even further than many who
frequent this form think possible. Furthermore, I
guess the low price I've entered because after 09/11/02 passes with no catastrophy happening TPTB will hammer the POG once again, only to postpone the inevitable.

Good Luck to all,


mudr$$$$$ 327.6 $$$$$#845439/6/02; 22:47:45

My guess is $327.6 is based on a guess about world tensions and the general trend. The POG will likely be fought all the way up to our highest expectations,

BlackBart$$$$332.2$$$$#845449/6/02; 23:09:00

New as I am to the forum it gives me great pleasure to find a "Community" of cyber brothers and sisters who are in touch with the realities of the geopolitics of our age...and it is this mysterious, elusive precious metal that brings us together...and it is the same metal that links us to geopoliticians, Knights, Ladies, Kings, Princes, Queens and all others of so many ages across human history. I was involved in the mid-seventies by virtue of an acquaintance with one of Bunker Hunt's advisors..and I rode their coattails in silver. I panned some around Charlotte, NC...the main street of Charlotte is built on top of the extensive gold mine which is the reason that Charlotte is there at all...shut down when the shafts filled up with water from numerous creeks flowing through...POG then was about $20/oz so it was not cost efficient to pump the water out to the rise of the late 70's there was some thought to pump and mine...some felt that the mother vein had never been found...but, for me, there was something magical that I could get into those creeks downstream from the mine and come away with yellow...Maybe that's some of the mystique...there's some problem with printing one's own currency, I'm told...but the metal will be here when the printing presses are a pile of rust...thanx all
Black BladeMarket Wrap Up – Puplava#845459/6/02; 23:18:58


What has surfaced this week sending stock prices lower is emerging evidence that the economy is heading back into recession. Sales at retailers such as Wal-Mart, Sears, and Kohl's are starting to fall. They are still growing, but at much lower rates of growth. Most of these stores are starting to see a moving downtrend. This month has been important in that back-to-school sales usually give retailers a lift. If sales don't pick up the rest of the month, we could be in big trouble. After all, there is a limit to how much consumers can continue to borrow given that they are up to their eyeballs in every imaginable kind of debt from credit cards, installment debt, mortgages, school loans, to margin debt.

Meanwhile, oil prices continue to rise as stockpiles continue to fall in the US. The American Petroleum Institute reported this week that oil stockpiles fell to an 18 month low. This is creating worries that the US is vulnerable to a disruption of supply ahead of a major war. During the last war, US stockpiles of oil were close to 400 million barrels. Currently they have fallen to 298.9 million barrels. Oil inventories have dropped 7.2% since June. Oil prices have been hovering close to or over $30 a barrel for more than a month. The tightening of supplies, the threat of an unexpected terrorist event, and the advent of a coming war with Iraq, when added together don't bode well for the economy.

Black Blade: "Interesting Times"

Black BladeGross predicts Dow 5,000 #845469/7/02; 00:13:30

Influential Pimco bond manager sees stocks moving lower before recovery begins.


NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - The manager of the world's biggest bond mutual fund predicts the Dow Jones industrial average could fall another 40 percent to 5,000 because the stock market remains stubbornly expensive despite a more than two-year decline. "The market needs to yield close to 3.5 percent before it approaches fair value, and that means Dow 5,000," Gross wrote in his monthly commentary. "Companies have been diluting your equity via stock options claiming that management needs incentives of millions of dollars just to get up in the morning and come in to work," Gross wrote. "Then they pick you off by trading on insider information, selling shares before the bad news hits and you have a chance to get out."

Black Blade: The stock market is grossly overvalued and all indications are that it will get worse. Companies stopped paying dividends as their executives claimed that they could do more with the payout than the shareholder. At least dividends can't be faked like corporate balance sheets.

Black BladeDivorce duel reveals Welch's perks #845479/7/02; 00:15:07

Court filings made by Jane Welch describe benefits GE continues to provide for its former CEO.


NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Divorce papers filed by the wife of Jack Welch Jr., the former CEO of General Electric, allege that GE covered living costs for the couple while he was working for the company and will continue to cover him for the rest of his life -- disclosures the firm never alluded to, an attorney for Jane Welch confirmed with CNNfn on Friday. The divorce papers filed by Jane Welch detail her husband's use of an $80,000 per month Manhattan apartment owned by the company, court-side seats to the New York Knicks and U.S. Open, seating at Wimbledon, box seats at Red Sox and Yankees baseball games, country club fees, security services and restaurant bills, according to the Times. In her filing, Jane Welch describes $126,820 per month in living costs, but states she is unable to put a value on the items covered by the GE perks or how much Jack Welch may contribute to those, the Times reported. For an example, she provided an assessment of the use of GE's Boeing 737 jet, which is valued at $291,869 per month, or $3.5 million a year, according to the Times.

Black Blade: Pretty good scam. I notice that this was not found in an SEC filing but shareholders had to find out through a divorce court filings. Old Jack musta had some good damaging dirt on the GE board members to blackmail them for this deal. It appears that there is a lot of "pillage and plunder" going on at GE. Hmmm…

Black BladeNew US power projects curbed #845489/7/02; 00:28:40


The number of new power generation projects that have been tabled or cancelled in the US during the past two years has risen dramatically. According to data compiled by Platts NEWGen database group, 90,000MW have been tabled and 86,000MW cancelled from the beginning of 2000 to the end of July 2002. In 2001 alone, 60,405MW were tabled and 44,457MW were cancelled. "Companies are rethinking new generation strategies as power prices drop, financing becomes more difficult to nail down and debt ratings are slashed," said the company.

Black Blade: Utes and power generators can't get financing to build power plants as their debt ratings get trashed. In the end, as long as the US remains in an economic depression and the weather remains moderate there won't be much of a problem. If the weather turns cold, the US emerges from economic depression, or worse – both, then those shelved plans for new power plants will come back to haunt America in spades.

Black BladeWar and Terrorism#845499/7/02; 00:52:25

A collection of a few recent reports:

German police said on Friday they had arrested a 24-year-old Turkish national and his 23-year-old German-American girlfriend in possession of explosives, and a newspaper reported he was suspected of planning an attack on U.S. installations. "We cannot rule out that sleeper agents live even here in Germany or in Europe or elsewhere," Ulrich Kersten, the head of Germany's Federal Crime Agency, said this week. "What we know for sure is that in Europe and in Germany there are people who are ready to commit violence in a jihad."

In Britain, the head of Scotland Yard's anti-terrorist unit also warned of possible attacks, saying lone bombers and gunmen unconnected to Al Qaeda could use Wednesday's anniversary as a world stage for their causes and strike in Britain. "We shouldn't underestimate these individuals. An individual is not incapable of causing serious impact and that is something we are alert to. Our intention is to enhance the deterrent," said Scotland Yard's David Veness.

In Paris, Roland Jacquard, director of the International Observatory on Terrorism and a consultant to the French government, estimated it would take between a year and 16 months after the Sept. 11 attacks for Al Qaeda to prepare for another operation. "It's likely the organization will be ready to make an attack at the end of the year or the beginning of next year," said Jacquard, who has written a biography of bin Laden.

Intelligence on Iraq that the Bush administration will present to Congress includes information on how dangerously close Saddam Hussein has come to developing a nuclear weapon. There is also new information indicating that Iraq has developed new methods of chemical- and biological-weapon delivery, and also of contact between Baghdad and Al Qaeda before and after the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

Black Blade: The pressure is on as the US gears up for war and unleashes aircraft for air strikes in Iraq to soften up targets before invasion. Meanwhile terrorists are intercepted and explosives are found.

DOWNUNDER$$$$$ 332.00 $$$$$ #845509/7/02; 02:35:37

Gold is important to me because it now represents 50+ % of my investment/asset portfolio.While it is extremely painful to follow on a day to day basis I feel secure with the placing of this bet. Buy low --- sell high --not very often does an opportunity like this come up--where all the marbles are stacked in our favour! Supply/ price/ economic meltdown/ etc.
TopazAnduril#845519/7/02; 04:00:07

May I say what a pleasant turn of phrase you bring to the Table Sir, balm for the Eyes.
The inflation argument continues to be refuted day after day as, against all expectations, the US$ holds it's preminent position atop the Global Fiat mountain.
Justified or otherwise Warmongering - $ positive.
Oil price increases - $ positive.
Big Float not coming ashore any time soon - ditto.
Teasuries inflation - ditto.
What (at this point in time) can you identify as a price INflationary trigger when all I see/hear are examples to the contrary?

Thanks for your input.

Black BladeThe New Depression - Unemployment - Government Workfare #845529/7/02; 04:28:25

I have been trying to sort out this mess concerning the Bureau of Labor statistics concerning the "seasonally" adjusted employment numbers. The BLS makes the claim that the jobless rate fell from 5.9% to 5.7% with the addition of 39,000 jobs. Many expected to see a slight increase to 6% (even with the "Seasonal" adjustment fudge factor). It still did not make sense until a closer inspection revealed some curious facts that also beg the question: Is the government starting a "Depression" era style jobs program? We are expected to accept at face value that 39,000 new jobs were created last month.

Manufacturing jobs fell by 68,000 while revisions increased the July non-farm payroll number from 6,000 to 67,000. That's one hell of an oversight. Also there was a loss of 55,000 retail jobs that were partially offset by 34,000 new construction jobs (real estate bubble?). So how and where did the increase in jobs come from? Well get this - the government added 41,000 new jobs in August. Government employment rose by 41,000 over the month. The federal government added 20,000 jobs, mostly reflecting an increase in the number of federal security personnel at airports.

Perhaps this is a somewhat covert attempt to create "busy work" jobs for unemployed Americans similar to what President Franklin D. Roosevelt put into action in 1933. For example the Civilian Conservation Corps (C.C.C.) was established in March of 1933 by President Franklin D. Roosevelt for the purpose of performing emergency conservation work, and helping to preserve the nation's heritage. This opportunity also offered employment to thousands of unemployed young men during the Great Depression. In short, a government sponsored workfare program. There were many other programs as well that included several public works projects such as the Hoover Dam.

Whatever the type of work and for whatever reason, the drop in the unemployment rate was in large measure due to jobs created by the government and not the private sector. This means that the unemployment picture has not really changed much at all. If anything it has actually deteriorated some when the newly created workfare jobs are accounted for.

About 1.4 million persons (not seasonally adjusted) were marginally attached to the labor force in August, essentially the same as a year earlier. These individuals reported that they wanted and were available for work and had looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed, however, because they had not actively searched for work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. The number of discouraged workers was 372,000 in August. Discouraged workers, a subset of the marginally attached, were not currently looking for work specifically because they believed no jobs were available for them. Obviously the unemployment rate is much greater than the government lets on.

- Black Blade

Golden BearBig Numbers...#845539/7/02; 06:20:43

"... In a report issued by the U.S. comptroller of the currency, the total amount of derivatives in U.S. insured commercial bank portfolios rose by $3.8 trillion in the second quarter, to $50.1 trillion...."


GB: These numbers are incredible...

Golden BearCitibank and JPM litigation liabilities too large to overcome?#845549/7/02; 06:44:05

"... None of the foregoing is arguing that Citigroup, JPMorgan or anyone else will be rendered insolvent by these issues, merely that there is potential for very material liability. As JPMorgan itself states in its 10Q, "[we] cannot state with confidence what the eventual outcome of [the] pending matters will be, or predict with confidence what the eventual loss . . . will be". One can reasonably conclude that the possibility of insolvency, although remote, is real. Most of the companies that filed for bankruptcy due to asbestos litigation insisted until near the date of filing that their exposure to the litigation was manageable and not material to their financial health. However these companies, after losing a few key cases, were inundated with claims and realized the only answer was to seek the protection of bankruptcy court. It is possible that a similar situation could unfold with respect to the banks. Particularly if there is a key court ruling that interprets the law in favor of the plaintiffs. Of course national banks cannot file for bankruptcy. If Citigroup or JPMorgan were faced with insolvency, it would be taken over by the FDIC, which would operate it in receivership.

This leads to a discussion of the "too big to fail" doctrine with respect to these potential legal issues. The prevailing opinion is that Citigroup and JPMorgan in particular are too crucial to the financial system for the "authorities" to let the worst-case scenario described above occur. This may be true, but the question is how and at what point can they do anything to prevent it? There are and will be a variety of legal proceedings occurring in bankruptcy court, different federal courts and different state courts. As mentioned earlier, the plaintiffs’ law firms are powerful organizations that will have different goals and agendas depending on who their client is, whom they are suing, what the facts of the particular case are and where the litigation is taking place. The plaintiffs are diverse parties from individual shareholders and bondholders to public pension funds and bankruptcy court creditors committees. In many cases, the plaintiffs’ are likely to believe they have a fiduciary duty to pursue the banks on behalf of their principals. The notion that all this could be shut down by a regulator outside of insolvency proceedings without an act of Congress is fanciful. While an act of Congress could do the trick, given the prevailing climate, a bill to save the banks and brokers from liability for the equity bubble is not likely to be politically feasible.

Where does this leave us? As noted by Doug Noland repeatedly on these pages, the United States economy is at great risk due to the past two decades of dramatic credit expansion. Due to the central role Citigroup, JPMorgan and others play in that system, the economy is at further risk from the other dramatic expansion that occurred over the past few decades – the expansion of the plaintiffs’ bar and the vulnerability of defendants to it..."

Flatlander$$$$$314.00$$$$$$#845559/7/02; 07:30:20

Gold represents true value over the ages. All else is an illusion.
misetichJapan's Plan to Shore Up Stock Market May Fail, Investors Say#845569/7/02; 07:49:22


By Tomoko Yamazaki

Tokyo, Sept. 7 (Bloomberg) -- Japan's latest plan to revive its economy, including the use of public pension funds to shore up the stock market, may not be enough to fix a decade-long slump, investors said.

The ruling Liberal Democratic Party wants to use pension money to buy exchange-traded funds, which represent groups of stocks. Purchases may total 3 trillion yen ($25 billion), the Nihon Keizai newspaper reported today, without citing anyone.

``The amount is quite significant if it is indeed carried out,'' said Dai Nishiyama, a senior fund manager at SG Yamaichi Asset Management Co., which has $22 billion in investments. ``Still, none of the plans being talked about seem to be aggressive enough to change the situation.''


Government spending, bailouts, deficits is growing - lets call it big governments bull market

Got gold?

misetichReport Sees Gloomy Side to the Boom in Car Sales#845579/7/02; 08:19:03



DETROIT, Sept. 6 — A new report by Goldman Sachs is sharply pessimistic about the robustness of auto sales and the underlying health of the Big Three.

The report contends that two main factors that have propped up sales in the short term — huge incentives and extra consumer cash coming from a boom in home mortgage refinancing — cannot be sustained.

The report, titled "After the Automotive Boom," suggests that if auto sales remain strong, the financing operations of the Big Three will have difficulty generating enough equity to continue to support deals like zero percent financing.
"The boom depends on access to capital," according to the report, because more generous loans cannot be extended to car buyers without it. "The Big Three cannot continue to support the boom indefinitely," the report added. It was written by Gary R. Lapidus, an auto analyst, and Jan Hatzius, an economist.

On the other hand, if financing deals are cut back, or consumers tire of them — and home mortgage refinancing falls off, as expected — auto sales, and corporate earnings, could fall sharply. Such an economic environment could also lead to lower-than-forecast returns in the companies' huge pension funds and a cash squeeze.


If the Big Three were unconstrained by labor contracts, they would close several plants and lay off workers in an effort to become more efficient and to compete better with much more profitable rivals like Toyota and Honda, the manager said. Such actions would help the companies restructure and free more capital to spend on product development, but their labor contracts prevent them from doing so.

The money manager said that because he thought labor concessions would be highly unlikely and that the companies would eventually have difficulty raising money, he was selling shares of G.M. and Ford short, meaning he is betting that their stock price will decrease.

"The bond markets will eventually figure this out," he said. "You can't just keep pouring money into this thing."


Housing and automotive industry are carrying the US economy - Boom and busts are part of the cycle -

Got gold?

mikalJapan's equities situation a trigger or a victim or both?#845589/7/02; 08:19:54

Thanks Misetich for that story. If the ruling Liberal Democratic Party idea for pension funds is funnelled into stocks, it would have to be part of a much grander scheme to achieve stability of any kind. A few of the obstacles: the temptation to finally bail out as stocks react upwards, rising energy and basic input prices, poor cash flow, credit downgrades, shifts into hard assets!
misetichAirline Forecasts Further Cost Cuts#845599/7/02; 08:28:48


ALLAS, Sept. 6 (AP) — American Airlines needs to cut its permanent cost structure by at least $3 billion a year, or more than 15 percent, over the next several years, its chairman and chief executive, Donald J. Carty, said today.

Lets not forget the effect of higher fuel costs -ouch!

Got gold?

R PowellTopaz // price inflation trigger#845609/7/02; 09:07:57

I've just finished reading Hamilton's weekly article which asks, indirectly, the same question about seeing the price increase effects of monetary inflation that I think you just asked.
Hamilton was looking at the rate of return from bonds and decided that money flow out of stocks into bonds has inflated bonds thus lowering yields. This force, he opines, is stronger than the threat of inflation which should raise yields. After finishing, I wondered about asking him what might stop or interrupt this stocks-to-bonds and bonds-to-stocks money flow. I'm interested as he seems to think that this closed money flow system may be channeling money in such a way as to mask, negate or postpone the inflation of prices (and long bond yields) that we might otherwise see.
He claims this flow is blocking the trigger that we seek. He very correctly (imho) sees this as one result of the concept among big money managers that investments are limited to stocks or bonds. There is nothing else. We all know what a miniscule amount of that money flow, invested in gold or silver would do to prices. I'm hoping that these blind fools will not be able to overlook the CRB index which is screaming of coming commodity price increases or price of goods and raw materials inflation.
They never saw the stock price bubble, they don't see this. POG will have to conform to their preconcieved trend and chart notions before they notice. They will (imho) not start the upturn (fundamental conditions will) but they will turn the upside into a bubble. They'll probably take POG and POS from whatever is fair dollar valuation and raise it to the moon. Let's hope so.
Mr. Hamilton, what will break the transfer cycle of bonds-to-stocks and stocks-to-bonds??
Happy weekend

R PowellAsk Mr. Hamilton?#845619/7/02; 09:29:27

Why not, I thought. So, I just did.
sector@R(ich)Powell The ECRI's Future Inflation Gauge is 18.8%#845629/7/02; 09:37:48

If anyone still has doubts about the tsunami of inflation headed our way just drop by the ECRI's FIG page (above).

It is not only screaming, it is in a rocket launch from well below zero to where it is now at 18.8%.

The Fed uses this data so they know all too well what is coming (Perhaps they will be compelled to "release" gold?).

The gauge measures at 9 months out so there won't be any relief for at least 9 months. Moreover, judging by the almost vertical trajectory of the FIG there's no telling how high it will go.

In addition, the recent FIG volatility [Extreme swings above and below zero] suggest that there are large economic structural failures in process.

ECRI-FIG Growth %
Aug-99 2.4
Sep-99 7.0
Oct-99 9.3
Nov-99 10.8
Dec-99 16.6
Jan-00 15.5
Feb-00 13.3
Mar-00 13.4
Apr-00 14.0
May-00 8.7
Jun-00 6.6
Jul-00 3.3
Aug-00 1.9
Sep-00 -2.9
Oct-00 -6.8
Nov-00 -9.8
Dec-00 -8.9
Jan-01 -11.2
Mar-01 -14.4
Apr-01 -17.2
May-01 -17.1
Jun-01 -16.5
Jul-01 -17.7
Aug-01 -18.0
Sep-01 -16.0
Oct-01 -17.7
Nov-01 -15.4
Dec-01 -14.6
Jan-02 -13.6
Feb-02 -7.0
Mar-02 -5.4
Apr-02 -2.2
May-02 0.6
Jun-02 8.5
Jul-02 15.7
Aug-02 18.8

misetichEfforts to Restrict Retirement Funds Lose Steam-Indignation Wanes as Congress Considers Limits on Company Stock Holdings#845639/7/02; 09:51:17


By Jonathan Weisman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 7, 2002; Page A01

Congress has all but abandoned legislative proposals to ensure that employee retirement funds are not concentrated in their employers' stock, after hearing from businesses that vigorously oppose such restrictions.

The recently devastated retirement accounts of employees from Enron Corp. and WorldCom Inc. initially fueled a wave of indignation among lawmakers in Washington and solemn vows to protect their investments. But the anger that pushed tough new accounting standards past corporate opponents this summer has already faded, lawmakers and lobbyists say, allowing businesses to regain their strength on Capitol Hill.
Consumer-rights groups, unions and retiree advocates, which were confident that the human wreckage of this year's huge bankruptcies would force real change to the rules, expressed outrage.

"I think it is appalling, and I think the American people would be appalled if they knew," said Karen Friedman, director of policy strategies at the Pension Rights Center, an advocacy group that supports such mandates. "It's time for Congress to have some backbone."

Corporate lobby groups are too powerful - politicos are a puppet on a string - Public outrage will soar - as their 401k is kissed goodbye - as the Big Bad Bear continues - PE multiples are too high and sooner than later will bet back to their mean -

Got gold?

tedwJustice Fields and Gold#845649/7/02; 10:11:20

Julliard vs Greenman 110 US 421

And when the Constitutional Convention came to the prohibition upon the States, the historian says that the clause ,"No State shall make anything but gold and silver a tender in payment of debts" was accepted without a dessentient State:

"So the adopton of the Constitution," he adds,"is to be the end forever of paper money, whether issued by the several states or by the United States,if the Constitution shall be rightly interpreted and honestly obeyed."


Wake Up: the federal courts are corrupt and our entire money sysem contrary to our basic and supreme law.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #845659/7/02; 10:20:10

UPDATE #8 (as of Saturday at 10:10 Denver time 9/7/02)

FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7


$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
WELCOME all you new POSTERS !
Thanks for joining us on the USAGOLD Forum.

TenbeersSilver investment#845669/7/02; 11:07:35

Hello from a long time lurker. I have a question about silver investing. Would it be wise to purchase silver in a large ingot. I can buy a 682 troy oz (57 lbs) of .999 silver @ spot price. Its about the size of a loaf of bread.
It was from the old mining days here in Juneau. It has the
stamps from the refinery, and some old bank stamps on it.
Can I verify if its real, and would a ingot the large be
liquid. Thank-you.

TopazR(ich), sector.#845679/7/02; 12:26:50

Tsunami??....more like a long as it (inflation)is prevented from "touching down" we can evade it's destructive influence.
A deflationary collapse of the system seems more plausable looking forward imho...

Go Lleyton!

CometoseMisetech Post 84457#845689/7/02; 12:27:49

Just opened a monthly newsletter this morning....
which had for its main course .... the subject of Pension fund obligations and how some very prominent firms have been using a standard "projection" of 10% increase in pension fund value per year to add in to their income statement after reaching the bottom line....I guess this would be the amended bottom line ..... They add this whether their actual performance is in line with their standard 10% projected increaseor not.... This is a another widespread accounting fraud being perpetrated on stockholders. GM is 12 billion behind on its Pension Fund obligations....To make up the balance, these obligations will have to come out of earnings...
This is going to put a lot of companies out of business; the others , which survive this pension fund shortfall that has to be paid back , will after the coming crash, be stuck in the gutter for years to come....

There's another ornament to put on the tree (OF SHAME).......
The lights will be coming on soon , what an illumination it will be ......(90% down days , capitulation, ctc.)

THe bond market is at its high...or will be soon in that yeilds can not go much lower....I really believe that the dollar is a proxie for bonds and vice versa...
Is the dollar slide a precursor to the bond market..
If we now add a cup of CRASH to the mix .....then the
HUMBLE PIE will be ready to bake....... and while it is will begin its (perhaps unabbridged) flight to ...... QQQQQQQQQQQQQQUUUUUUUUAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIITTTTTTTYYYYYY

Humble pie is not a suitable well balanced dessert
unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD.......

unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD.......

unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD.......

unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD...........

unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD..............

unless served with a heaping portion of GOLD...............

All the information available to us on this forum is now also available to anyone who has access to this forum which is anyone who has a computer........
As the global economic scenario plays out it possible that we are all in a game of musical chairs with regard to the (vanishing )supply of GOLD as has been indicated by ANOTHER and FOA.....????????


SWEET 16September 13 POG#845699/7/02; 13:02:34


Buying gold now is a cool way to pay for college in 2005.


sector@Topaz One can Easily Prevent the Inflation's "Tornado's Touchdown"#845709/7/02; 14:36:34

All one needs to do is...

...stop using petrol, stop eating foods bought from the grocery, medically treat one's self, deeply reduce one's consumption of kilowatts as the UTES raise their rates, avoid using fresh water as the municipalities will surely raise those rates to offsey losses from a plunging tax base, and ...most of all ...divest one's self of all paper currency that is on a moonshot to 25% inflation and who knows where after that.

Bill Gross of Pimco [Mr. Bond guy] thinks bonds will win. I've got news for him:

The bonds of major companies are already worthless because their balance sheets are as fake as cotton candy and some of them are sitting ducks for a litigative lethal assault [Ford].


BTW there are folks here who imagine that gold will pull back later this week or next. These folks may even plan to "Sell the rallys" or "Take profits".

News FLASH...In a few weeks, those who "Sell the rallys" or "Take profits" will be very sorry they did so.

harryoGold Contest#845719/7/02; 14:38:25

The powers that drive gold down will manage to do it again. Not as low as before though. I am a long time lurker. Invested in gold stocks at the wrong time but will hold until the right time. I cannot understand why with the balance of payments deficit, the loss of capital experienced by the NASDAQ crowd, the inflation that exists (in spite of the govt's stats otherwise), the potential for the over produced dollar to decline, and the lack of "safe" investments why gold and gold stocks have not soared. Those who invest in any market now must be unaware of the potential for a greater fall from current values.(Bear Market continues.) Bonds will have to lose value as interest rates increase. Gold and gold stocks seem the safest place to be. I believe that I am right but my timing has been definitely wrong.

a nation of onea small local scandal#845729/7/02; 14:56:14

An old friend I encountered in the grocery store yesterday said he thought a 'war on terrorism' was kind of like a 'war on snobbery,' or a war on 'pickled herring.' Nothing I said would convince him otherwise. He insisted that snobbery and terrorism are alike, because either can be engaged in without being detected until it is too late. And anyone can pickel a herring, all they need is a herring. I replied that herrings could easily be outlawed. I am sure Congress would go for it. He said that proved his point, because herrings could be caught by anyone with a boat. Then I graciously pointed out to the ignorant buffoon that all we would have to do is give up our boats, and then herrings would not be catchable or pickleable. "Some people would not give up their boats," he said, "they would hide them." He's probably right, the lousy freak. There are always a few traitors. And snobbery is more difficult, I agree. Anyone can practice snobbery surreptitously, and the government can't prevent it, can't even detect it dependably. It's hard to prove too. But I told him, "That doesn't make snobbery legal." I had him there. Though he missed the point. The wretched boob (who I know doesn't have much income, the poor soul, and he probably comes from inferior stock as well) merely replied by saying goodbye and turning and leaving. What he was doing in that expensive store I will never know. Probably stole a few dollars somewhere. He certainly can't truly afford it. But I do know this: Such people, who think for themselves, are dangerous. They don't fit in. And who knows what they might do? Next thing you know they will be quoting the Constitution, or saying laws ought to be applied to everyone. To me it seems only logical we ought to put these people away, frighten them first maybe, with some horrific examples, by putting a few of their fellow thinkers in prison and making a big deal about it in the press. And if they don't cooperate threaten to give them a good shock of about 300,000 volts. That'll put the fear of death into their hearts. Then America will be safe for the rest of us. And we can go on bombing our wicked enemies. Such as Iraq, Egypt, Japan, and Norway, and all the others who don't agree with us.

Gold is going up, did you notice? Looks to me like the stop orders have been cleaned out for quite a distance on the up side.

a nation of onean obvious forecast#845739/7/02; 15:06:39

I read The New Yorker sometimes because I don't know better, and in this issue they have a spread of several pages on what fashions will look good when their readers run out of money. It's revealing. The people in the know in New York clearly understand that the DOW is headed in the direction of at least the low four digits, and perhaps even for the three digit numbers.
R PowellTenbeers#845749/7/02; 16:32:00

Regarding that loaf of silver, if it can be bought at spot or thereabouts, it would seem that its value would hold to the future spot price of silver at the least. Whether or not it has any added value as an historical piece or as an unusual item, I don't know. Actually, I know very little about unusual pieces of metal but our host might. Oftentimes, obtaining top dollar for an item requires knowing how to present that item to those most interested in and able to pay the most.

sangrellimy guess#845759/7/02; 16:43:48

$$$$$ 325.1 $$$$$
I am a former stockbroker and became intrested in gold stocks in year 2000. It was right at the top of the bubble.
I have been consumed by gold and silver ever since. I feel it is the best thing I have ever done. I sold my house in 8/2001 and took place in a private placement and purchased exclusively Ag and Au investments,(including physical).The reason I feel Ag and Au will do so well is because of fiat money will slowly be exposed for the LIE that it is.When the currency devalues and inflation starts the realization will slowly sink in for the masses and they will bid up the price. I feel gold will eventualy exceed $1000 and silver will hit $100 in perhaps 5-8 years. I am gartefull to all the posters that connect me to any bearish info. We truely live in an information vacuum the PTB do not want the people to know the truth.

BelgianStocks / B onds / Cash / Real Estate#845769/7/02; 17:23:48

20 years of rising stockprices and bondprices (lower interest rates), regardless of any zigzag cross switches.
20 years of declining Goldprices and 20 years of money (confetti) growth . 20 years of rising real estate/land prices. All these trends have come or are coming to a halt/stop and are reversing or in the process of reversing.
Regardless of any zigzag cross switches.
Stocks decline, bonds are reaching zero interest rates, real estate prices are topping, Goldprice is bottoming and reversing, and more confetti is added to the piles.
Will these past 20 years be mirrored with an opposite picture for the coming 20 years ? No it wan't take 20 years to erase and neutralize what happened during the past 20 years.

What went up must come down and inversely.

IRs up, stocks/bonds down, Gold up and added confetti will be destroyed/devaluated, proportionate to the previous over-valuation. As day and night, growth and decay, birth and dead, take off and landing, high and low tide.

Everything in between was a gift !

silvercollectorWow! For followers of Mr. Greenspan this is a must read.....#845779/7/02; 18:13:53

Bill Bonner with the gloves on!!!!!
misetichAnalyst's '99 E-Mail Details IPO Rewards -#845789/7/02; 18:28:35


By Ben White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 7, 2002; Page E01

NEW YORK, Sept. 6 -- In a 1999 e-mail, a Credit Suisse First Boston analyst said shares in hot initial public offerings are often reserved for executives at companies that spend millions on investment banking, describing in detail a practice that has angered small investors and sparked investigations.

In the e-mail, Credit Suisse analyst Lise Buyer attempted to explain, apparently to an outsider, how Wall Street firms distribute valuable shares in companies they help take public. Some of the shares, she wrote, "are reserved not for friends of the company, but for friends of the investment bank," amounting to "something of an 'if you scratch my back I will scratch yours' " situation.
Investment bankers - and corporate insiders -
Whilst they "if you scratch my back I will scratch yours'" investors get robbed - The bushel is full of rotten apples -

Got gold?

Golden BearLeMet Cafe article of James Turk interviewed by Barron's#845799/7/02; 19:05:53


"... Q: But if you're looking at gold reserves as a percentage of M3,doesn't flooding the system with liquidity skew the result?
A: All I'm doing is taking the year-to-year growth in M3 at the end of each month and plotting it on a chart. Back in the 1970s, we had double-digit inflation rates because we had double-digit rates of growth in M3. Then, former Fed chairman Paul Volcker's mandate was to reduce inflation, and he did it by reducing the growth rate of M3. Fed Chairman Greenspan continued those disinflationary policies when he came into office in 1987. In 1992 we had a short period of deflation when M3 declined from the previous year's level. This 1992 period is significant, because it marks the blowup in the exchange-rate mechanism. But the Volcker-Greenspan policies became so painful to European countries, Italy and Great Britain specifically, that they chose to break from the exchange-rate mechanism and pursue their own course. That was a message for reinflation in the 'Nineties and we've had massive growth in M3 since then. The early part of this reinflation led to the 1993-1994 bull market in gold and gold stocks. And the reinflation has continued.

Now we're headed to the next stage, which isn't supply-driven, but rather a demand-driven issue. When you talk about inflation or deflation, you're talking about the quantity of dollars and therefore the supply of dollars. Yet we need to focus on demand for dollars rather than the supply of dollars, because we assume demand remains constant though it doesn't work that way in the real world. The demand for the Argentine peso disappeared overnight. I am not saying that's going to happen with the dollar, but the dollar nevertheless has fallen in the foreign-exchange markets, which suggests that the Fed isn't contracting the growth of M3 fast enough to maintain the dollar's strength relative to other currencies of the world.

Q: So are we heading into a deflationary period?
A: I don't think so. I wouldn't call it inflationary; I wouldn't call it deflationary. We will see rising prices, not because of the dramatic increase in supply of dollars, but because of dramatic decreases in demand for dollars. The supply of dollars may remain the same, but if demand declines, the dollar purchases less, which expressed in terms of prices means that prices will be rising...."

GB: Interesting perspective on our inflation/deflation discussion...

Golden BearMore fron James Turk interview... Gold's role in any environment.#845809/7/02; 19:17:13

link below

"... Q: Talk about China's role in the gold dynamic.
A: The Chinese impact on gold will be extremely profound. The Chinese- language character for gold is the same as the one for money. As far as the Chinese are concerned, gold is money. The Chinese central bank reported an increase in their gold holdings to the International Monetary Fund last year. But the number is still small, about 500 tons compared with 395 previously reported. The general market view, though, is that the Chinese central bank has been accumulating gold and not reporting all their holdings to the IMF.

Q: Somebody must be selling it to them.
A: Now you are getting into the whole issue of who is selling the gold and who is shorting gold. There is a point of view that, in addition to some mining companies, banks and other financial institutions have been borrowing gold to fund dollar assets and earn a spread similar to that of the yen carry trade of a few years ago. People were borrowing yen at 0.5% to fund dollar assets and making 5% on the spread until the yen started to appreciate. Now, gold is being borrowed from the central banks and sold into the market in exchange for dollars. That's fine in a declining gold-price environment, but in a rising gold environment it can kill you. We know the central banks loan the gold, but it's unclear which ones are doing it and how much they are loaning out.

There is evidence to suggest the Exchange Stabilization Fund, a quasi- government agency under the direct control of the U.S. Treasury secretary and the president, has been active in the gold market. If the gold price were to rise, the multinational banks who are the big shorts in the gold market wouldn't be able to cover their shorts and would take big hits. That's why the ESF is involved to help manage the price of gold. It isn't unprecedented that gold is loaned or flows into the market. What's unprecedented is the lack of disclosure. My sense of it is that there's more than 10,000 tons loaned into the market by central banks. If that's true, that's four times annual production. Can you imagine if people were short four times wheat production in one year? There is systemic risk here.

Q: Are you recommending people buy gold bullion, or should they buy gold stocks?
A: People make a mistake thinking bullion is an investment. Mining stocks fall into the investment category, but bullion is cash. It isn't an investment. You buy bullion for liquidity purposes. You buy bullion for safety purposes, because there is no return to bullion unless you lend it out. It's clear, though, that people see gold as an increasingly important component of their cash and liquidity holdings..."
GB: The Chinese character for gold means money!,.... compare that to the average Joe Six Pack of the western world, who being the poor uninformed soul that he is, does not have any mechanism to be enlightened to the real value of gold in his wealth accumulation and preservation strategies....

silvercollectorCanada's Globe and Mail has a 20 page 'special' on the anniversary of 911......#845819/7/02; 19:56:06

I surmise the large networks will carry enormus reviews one year after the fact.

The Globe's lead article compares 1942 (Pearl Harbour) with New York (911). According to the author America has lost it's stealth. America should have come out on 9/12 with guns ablazing.

Contrary to some posters on this forum who claim responsibility of 911 is sketchy, I believe America should of 'evaporated' Afganistan the next day.

If the CBS article posted this week (Rumsfeld ordered plans on Iraq 5 hours after that fateful morning) has any credence, I believe a 'superior' party to al-Queida is behind 911. A collection of 'mountain-goat farmers' turned militia in Afganistan does not and will never convince me that they were the perpertrators of 911.

The US, for better or worse, needs to 'whack' the vile offenders, let the chips fall.

Mr. Bush, immediately after 911 promised action and a year later is stalling.

From the Globe article;

Seven months ago....Mr. Bush made an eloquent case......."In a single instant", he said, "we realized that this will be a decisive decade in the history of liberty, that we've been called to a unique role in human events."

" the year since terror changed America, the US has lost sight of its perceived role in changing the's allies have slinked away from a shared purpose, perhaps feeling they never will have a true partnership with the US....this time, they are alone and confused....the Pearl Harbor moment has passed......"

It seems to me that Mr. Bush is caught between 'retribution'
(as the author suggests) and whether oil is to be secured or lost. It appears to me that Mr. Bush now fears the 'axis of oil' as much as the 'axis of evil'.

Put this statement in your pipe and smoke it, "....if Mr. Bush did not fear ramifications of oil supply disruption he would have 'whacked' the 911 perpetrators a long, long time ago.....the allies now understand the 911 attack was solely directed at the US.....wish not to aggravate the situation further...."

OBL's brazen statement of $144US/barrel oil stands alone. Forget all other statements, implications and accusations of this internationally wanted criminal. The statement, in it's context alone, warrants a larger view. The Arab states who have warned "....that an attack on an Arab state will be conceived as an attack of all Arab states" have sent this bandit to carry out the '$144' message.

The US now faces the challenge of its history. An attack of Iraq will come with huge consequences. The attack in 1990/1991 was 'justified' and it brought 'oil stability'. This attack has far, far larger implications. Is it 911 retribution? Is it for oil supply security? The reason for attack is irrelevant, it will be contrived as the situation warrants.

The debate on this forum regarding REASONS to attack Iraq is pointless.

The question is whether the attack procedes as the media sometimes leads us to believe. My opinion is that there is no attack. If Bush wanted it, it would have happened long ago. Now the dilema for the poor soul. Bush is testing waters and this must go in the next 1-6 months. If we see the attack expect ANYTHING. If the attack does not go down America will have succumbed to the tragedy of 911. Confidence in the US (dollar) will fall off a cliff, gold will soar. The American 'monetary' promise will be shambles.

All the nay-sayers, weak-minded and weak-wristed will be shocked with this post, to them I say sorry. Unfortunately, the time has come to 'call the Arab bluff' or submit. The Arab world, now united, has the upper hand, as witnessed by the submission of Europe, notably Germany. Europe and Asia will pay, as Ari kindly notes, for oil at market rate, be it $30 OR $144/bbl.

The term "....we need the oil therefore we will take it.." is on the mind of Mr. Bush and has been for months, does he dare?

The US, very soon will decide. Fortunately for gold holders it is a win-win scenario. Unfortunately for humans it is a time of grave concern.

kasperjackSilver Collecter#845829/7/02; 20:31:50

We don't want their oil. Iraq was producing 3 million barrels of oil per day just prior to our last invasion. We imposed limitations on their ability to export oil. We limited them to shipping approximately 1 million barrels of oil per day. The proceeds were to be used for strictly humanitarian purposes. Iraq would turn up the taps immediately if we let them. However some of the proceeds from that oil would be spent on rebuilding Iraqs military. Ergo the Western conquerors veto on oil shipments. We must be careful what we wish for vis a vis Iraq. The arabs can withdraw the $750 billion or so in capital they have invested in the United States. If we humiliate Iraq the whole arab world could stop shipping us oil(no cheering over the devestation of the daisy cutters folks), demand payment in Euros or gold for that matter, and boycott our businesses and exports. The mid East is flaring up not because of oil or in Iraqs case innvolvment with Al Quad but because the strategic balance between Israel and the Arab world is being altered by the introduction of accurate and long range missle technology that can be used to carry weapons of mass destruction. MAD or mutually assured destruction is coming to the Middle Eastern theater... This political development has tremendous implications for precious metals. And my reading of the politcos says there is no end game. i.e. we will continue rolling over the axis of evil and their associates until we either bog down or finish the task. Gold is good insurance in times of uncertainty and chaos(?)
Buena Feramblings#845839/7/02; 20:59:48

1930's depression and DEFLATION. why deflation (defined as the us$ gaining purchasing power)? IMHO what happened in the 30's was that GOLD's purchasing power began to climb (especially internationally), the cabal (yes it existed back then) realized that gold was on a trip to the moon after the 29 crash, SO they arranged for the us$ to be chained to gold by gov decree (confiscation) and to all it looked like the us$'s purchasing power was increasing just as fast as gold (in fact it was, as gold (the rocket) was removed from sight as it gave the us$ a FREE ride), so we had DEFLATION against quais-us fiat.

Today the us$ will NOT be chained to gold (international players say no way no way "w"), so as "gold the rocket" blasts to the moon, us$ HYPERINFLATION will manifest because the $ has "no ticket to ride" (i suspect the euro has though).

I ALSO suspect that the adjectives (depression, etc.) to describe the next 5-15yrs (economically) have not been "coined" yet.

Gandalf the WhiteREPOST of Happy Birthday (#1) Essay Contest Results #845849/7/02; 21:25:22

FROM the "Archives" is a repost of the WINNERS in the First Year "Happy Birthday Essay Contest !
TownCrier (09/23/99; 21:52:21MDT - Msg ID:14238)
Hear ye! Hear ye! Gather around Good Ladies and Knights, for gold and silver is on the Table!
Behold! The master of the Castle has ordered that this precious metal be brought up from the guarded depths of the Castle's rich vaults, a treasury maintained to meet the needs of all who come to these doors looking for a better way through life. Stir up the fire, and let us have more light! Look upon this table and you will see the rewards awaiting their bestowment upon those who earned them with stirring words. Words that remind us of our good fortune had through the companionship of all persons that meet in this place, for without all that gather here, this "place" would remain little more than a misty undefined space among the wider world. In this eerie location, barren throughout the ages, our good host raised a flag pole one year ago, and it is you, Good Knights and Ladies, who have labored to raise the walls of this edifice that you so edify in time and space.

I have been asked to deliver this information on behalf of the master of the Castle, though he insists he feels himself to be nothing more than a privileged tenent.

The grand prize of one half ounce gold Eagle is awarded to the soft spoken Lady Leigh, who inspired the most comments from her fellows with words that rang with truth and hope:

"...each moment is touched with a sense of magic. We who entered the Hall as strangers have become the very dearest of friends. Throughout the past year, we have shared each other's concerns, suffered together, helped one another in our quest for knowledge. Daily we learn more about each other. We admire strengths and have compassion on weakness. Tonight we have much to celebrate, and it is to our USAGOLD Forum fellows that we instinctively turn. The lure of the mighty Table Round is overwhelming. It keeps us up late at night, and it beckons us in our sleep. We happily obey its call, knowing that our Forum friends are always glad to hear from us. May there be many, many more years of comraderie for us all at the Oaken Table of Yore!"

The first runner-up prize of one quarter ounce gold Eagle is awarded to Sir Goldspoon who painted a rich picture seemingly too good to be possible outside of the legends of yore:

"...a hint of the members gathered here... The faces were in shadows hidden by your guilded armored helmets. As my eyes became adjusted to the golden glow here and my ears adjusted to the softspoken words of encouragement and of golden truth, i realized that i was in the company of bravehearts. Hearts tempered by battle and minds of refined wisdom..Unselfish souls willing to share the timeless knowledge of the true Golden Ages. A time stolen from us that i did not even know was missing.... i soon learned that even i had something to add (meeger as it may be) to this Golden Quest, almost as if i were drawn here of purpose... Excuse me for some of my past posts dear Knights of the Round Table... for i did not then realize how tall the trees in this forest were... nor how firmly rooted their convictions, nay even of the rich soil of truth and justice from which they feed.....makes one feel small... but proud of one's place...."

The second runner-up prize of one tenth ounce gold Eagle is awarded to Sir Twice Discipled who wove a rich tapestry that served double duty as a magic carpet to carry us to distant lands, a reminder that our Table is truly here, there, and everywhere:

"I have traveled from a dry and barren land where the word of your wisdom and knowledge is spread with whispers in attempts to conceal the truth you have to share. Tales of your generosity to share your wealth have not even begun to compare to the riches that you lay at the feet of all who will enter into your Court.
This Court is an oasis of knowledge and wisdom in the desert of mirages. In this desert the rulers so cleverly have create a mirage of everlasting prosperity wherein those under their spell pay homage to those with who show the way. But wide is this path and many who enter in are moving in the path of destruction. These followers have convinced themselves in their own minds that their teachers have their best interest at heart, but nay they heap to themselves teachers who will tickle their ears – "Oh, look at how our fiat money and strategies makes you so rich!" This Round Table is indeed a group who have dared to stand and say "I dare say your fiat money will make you poor". But alas, you have opened the door of knowledge to enable each and every person to take their destiny in their own hands if they will only gather the courage to do that which they have always been told is foolish. Gather until yourself those things that are rare and cannot be made by man -- that which has lasted for centuries."

As these kindest words were received, they touched us deeply, and alas, we found that our heart and awards had been committed when a final delivery of words quite golden caught us in a quandary...what is to be done with Sir Aristotle and his warming words?:

"...a glimmer of hope, like a castaway on a small island at sea who commits a message in a bottle to the endless waves as a small plea to anyone "out there" who might find it and somehow make a difference while we are powerless to do so. And if the currents be against us and the bottle be not found for an age, at least it will one day be known by someone that there once was a forlorn soul who's life nonetheless burned as bright as ever has under the sun. ... "We gather here." That says enough when you consider who exactly "we" are. Some of us will never know the extent of who is who. It matters not. Know thyself, and you'll know that your own presence here is worth the riches of kings, and as a complement to the group, the compliment is expressed. We gather here to live our lives better, and with hope of being that helpful BEACON to any others lost in the night. That says it all, my dear friends. WE gather HERE."

Indeed, we do, Good Sir, and as your words compelled the reopening of the treasury doors, a guardsman said, "For Sir Aristotle? He travels here so very often to reward himself for the riches of his own labor in the world, I feel as though I know him well. He comes always for only gold, and I have not known him to have any thing else. A reward? The Sun shines all the brighter if you have also seen the Moon. Provide him with the Moon, and thereby brighten his Sun." And so it shall silver Eagle to serve that noble purpose.

And while inside the doors of the Treasury, standing at the base of the silver stockpile, it seemed just as well to leave with three as with one, so two honorable mentions we have to add.

A silver Eagle is awarded to Sir Peter Asher for a poetic roll call, and for reminding us where a roof may always be found:

O Mighty Oaken Table of Yore,
Witness to enchanted lore,
Told by wondrous Knights of old,
Of quests renown by deeds so bold.

You've become our Forum standard,
"Knights of Gold" our host commanded.
Drawn by history's shining moments,
Now we stand as Gold's proponents.

First a band, a loyal few,
Inspired ranks which swiftly grew
Into this group we see tonight,
Linked by bonds of truth wove tight.
"When from this castle far you Roam;
O'er towering peaks or seas of foam.
If for your friends you have a yen,
Just go online — your home again."

And finally, a silver Eagle is awarded to Sir canamami for the education, and the suggestion that assembled in thought we as solid as our history:

"Thus, my compliment to the Table Round is to compare it to the Order of Good Cheer. Just as the OGC's membership was open only to the "gentlemen" of the colony, the members of the Table Round is comprised of the Knights - those whose worldview draws them to gold; a worldview which is marked by a desire for hard money, hard money being a pre-requisite for a clear-eyed assessment of economic realities. Such a clear-eyed assessment is necessary for the production of an abundance of goods and services, to meet the needs of family, friends and, hopefully and eventually, the entirety of humanity. (To steal from Preston Manning, the Knights are hard-headed people with soft hearts). Thus, the Forum is like the OGC, which tried to meet the needs of its members and guests, both other colonists and the local aboriginals. Perhaps more important, the Knights value gold as hard money because it provides for true savings, which require a true store of value, to enable us to survive the various "harsh winters" which history teaches can arise, just as the stored wine may have helped the colonists survive the winter. The Forum has provided us with intellectual and emotional sustenance, and sometimes entertainment, to ward off any periods of despair during the POG's long winter. And, with the fellow Knights of the Forum, we celebrate our final vindication as the snow melts and the ice breaks, and the buds of the POG's spring appear."
The Hobbits are looking forward to see what SIR MK is planning for this FOURTH BIRTHDAY. PERHAPS, something similar to the first year celebration ? We shall see shortly after the HAPPY BIRTHDAY GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST winners are announced on FRIDAY the 13th of September !

sector@a nation of one...Ahhhhhh! ...Your Secret is out!#845859/7/02; 21:40:03

It's the New Yorker Effect!

No wonder you make some sense in almost all your actually read the New Yorker and don't just double over laughing at the cartoons.

But there is one more noticable New Yorker style trait that gives you away...the absense of paragraphs.

Loved the snobbery and herring mix. It's perfect.

Now the Prez has stuck his foreign policy neck way out and hasn't really said why.

Does he have a black mail video or letter from Al Qaeda? Do they have a bomb in place? If the bad guys blow up a big city the Admin can't just re-bounce the Afgani rubble now can he, so what's a mad CIC to do? How does he win with another big city attacked?

He takes Iraq, smack between an untakeable Iran and an untakeable Saudi Arabia and also complete with oil pipelines already flowing to Jordan AND it's practlically contiguous with Israel. At least he gets some revenue.

The big picture. At least on paper. Perhaps the big picture, paper war is what the generals have seen and so far rejected. 200,000 men? The Admin planners have been smoking their own divots. Even Turkey is opposed.

But IF the bad guys do another 9/11, opposition will pretty much evaporate and the Prez will get his approval numbers going back least until the battles bog down. That's the problem when suits take over from uniforms.


You have had MULTIPLE posts now that demonstrate exactly how brainwashed & loopy you really are. Frankly I am hoping that the regulators on this site are taking notice. You've told us exactly how you feel before/ period so no need to repeat!

I believe you have gone TOO far. I don't believe YOU represent the American peoples view & anyway you've ALREADY said your hate filled brainless message multiple times. I object! EG:
"Contrary to some posters on this forum who claim responsibility of 911 is sketchy, I believe America should of 'evaporated' Afghanistan the next day."
It is tiny brain thinking not to realise that there is a very large deficit in US Govt policy. However it has ALL been said before so no point in repeating. Orchestrated S11 propaganda is being whipped up all over the world --it is a really sick thing to have to watch & listen to it repeated ad-nauseam every time you switch on a radio or TV –even here in Australia. Especially so far in front of the REAL anniversary day! It's NO accident. NCWBEI

Paper AvalancheInflation, Deflation and Einstein#845879/7/02; 23:34:13

Greetings good friends of the round table. I come to you with much beer (in me). I believe that I have mentioned before but feel the need to again postulate the idea of simultaneous inflation and deflation. All assets, real and financial, are in a constant state of flux. I tend to digress to the simplistic, yet brilliant, concepts espoused and articluated by Albert Einstin regarding relativity. It is my humble opinion that inflation and deflation have, and will continue, to co-exist. To that extent, I do not embrace the rantings of the super-inflationists or the super-deflationists. Rather, I seek to determine where the value of certain assets may find themselves relative to the value of other assets. The arguments of both sides are equally compelling and can both be equally substantiated with historical data. However, I am of the belief that we are entering a period of time where market forces (yes, they do exist despite the best efforts of the central banks and their control of the paid for media) will evidence once again simultaneous inflation and deflation forces. Specifically I believe that those asstes, mainly financial, that have attendant debt and debt service requirements (real estate, bonds) will depreciate while those assets or commodities that exist and are desired or required by the public at large (food, energy, precious metals) will appreciate. To that end as commodity prices continue to spiral upward (CRB index greater than 224 as of Friday) and the dollar price of financial assets plummets, one can easily make the case for both arguments. The key in analyzing each argument is not to determine whether one or the other exists. They both exist. They have always existed relative to a specific benchmark (US dollars). The real key is to determine the net impact of the trend of each (financial vs. commodity) relative to the existing benchmark. One might be inclined to hold dollars in a savings account if he thought that real estate prices would decrease 10% over 12 months, but might also benefit to a greater extent if over the same 12 month period the value of the dollar relative to gold lost 25%. So the name of the game is to determine not only if financial assets are going down, but also if commidity assets are going up. It quickly becomes a game of relativity.

IMHO, based on the what I have gleaned from this fine forum and other research, we will have deflation. Car and home prices will go down. However, the cost of food, energy and precious metals will increase exponentially given that the total amount of dollars created during the inflation period for financial assets was not only not reflected in commodity prices, but was surreptisously surpressed. Given my limited ability to assimilate what information I do have access to and my ability to assume certain things about the financial chicanery to which I only have interpretive logic to guide me, I believe that the following may very well be the state of things at the end of the year:

POO $45
POG $500
POS $13
DJIA 5,500
CRB 265

Real estate prices will plummet before the end of the year. The stock market will succumb to the pressures of dis-investment. The dollar will be repudiated internationally. The cost of food will increase by at least 25%.

I may be wrong. I am wrong more often than I am correct. This is just my opnion. I believe that the paper avalanche has begun.


darkhorse@Downunder#845889/8/02; 00:28:21

You're right, he most definitely doesn't represent what I've found to be the popular opinion, at least amongst us Joe Sixpack-types. Everybody wants the head of whoever it was that planned/launched the attacks, but there have been a couple posts within the past few weeks that show just how easy it can be to hate Americans. Now I'm not saying I'm any kind of saint, but any time a person degrades and underestimates ("A collection of 'mountain-goat farmers' turned militia...") a group of people the way it's been done here lately (most likely the poster has no personal knowledge/experience with the subject of their post), it shows quite a bit of arrogance. Everybody's got an opinion, but reading some of the posts here one might get the idea we've got half the top geopolitical experts in the world posting on a regular basis...they know what will happen, when and to whom. Not much original thought, just parroted information that may or may not be correct in the first place. I think Texas has a saying for that..."All hat and no cattle."
Black BladeCanadian Senate panel urges legalization of pot#845899/8/02; 01:43:26


OTTAWA, Canada (CNN) -- A Canadian Senate committee recommended Wednesday that marijuana be legalized. "Cannabis should be, from here on, in legal and of restricted use, so that Canadians can choose whether to consume or not in security," said Sen. Pierre Claude Nolin, a Progressive Conservative Party member from Quebec province. He spoke at a news conference announcing the final report of the Special Committee on Illegal Drugs, which he chaired. The government should give amnesty to anyone convicted of marijuana possession under current or past legislation and erase their records, Nolin said. "Domestic and international experts and Canadians from every walk of life told us loud and clear that we should not be imposing criminal records on users or unduly prohibiting personal use of cannabis," Nolin said. Evidence indicates that cannabis is less harmful than alcohol, and undermines the idea that smoking pot leads to harder drugs, the committee said. "But we have come to the conclusion that, as a drug, it should be regulated by the state much as we do for wine and beer, hence our preference for legalization over decriminalization."

Black Blade: "Interesting" developments up north. If this proposed legislation is passed there will be a mass migration of tourists from the US spending their dollars. The shift in wealth and the trade deficit with Canada would be enormous. The US would likely have armed guards to keep US citizens on the US side of the border. It might be something like the Berlin Wall except between the US and Canada. "Interesting Times"

Black BladeGold bulls strain on yokes as Bush sets sights on Iraq #845909/8/02; 04:08:12


"This is not a question of fundamentals but rather politics," Cooke said, adding that events after the September 11 anniversary and the looming threat of another Gulf War would be key factors in the short term. In the medium term, however, technicals showed that the general trend for the gold price was still up, he said. Gold has been in an upward trend since mid-2001. Other positives in gold's favour include good physical demand from Asia, the ruling out of gold sales by Germany, gold producers cutting their hedge books and the fall in Tokyo's Nikkei this week to its lowest level in 19 years, amid fears Japan's banking sector was on the rocks.

Black Blade: Whether the stock markets rise or fall, it appears that Gold will rise independently now. Gold is undervalued to begin with but the geopolitical tensions around the world and the threat of war in the Middle East have lit a fire under the price of Gold.

silvercollectordarkhorse, downunder, others#845919/8/02; 06:40:00

Sorry to offend.

Popular opinion polls all around the world suggest Bush cannot, should not attack Iraq. These polls are increasing in number, increasing in visibility as well.

I was 'parroting' the Globe and Mail author who suggested
that the window of opportunity for attack, retaliation, revenge, call it will, for WHATEVER motive, has passed. It was unlike Pearl Harbor.

These 'unpatriotic' messages are increasing both in quantity and intensity all around the world. That's not my doing, don't shoot the messanger.

Just because CNN is slighted doesn't mean all of media is. If one examines a wide cross section around the world an alarming theme is prevalent.

Sorry to call al-Queida 'mountain goat farmers, turned militia'. I am truely sorry that offends you. 'Bombing' New York offends me, it still sickens me. Watching people a thousand miles away from NY turning white and near the edge of panic offends me. Many believe a larger, more immediate retalitory assault should have taken place. I am sorry we are at opposite poles on that debate.

This is a gold forum, oil and war have EVERYTHING to do with gold. This forum has discussed oil, war, politics and government since it's inception, that's what gold IS, believe it.

And yes, my posts delve into touchy ground. Wars are touchy subjects, especially the one that may or may not start in the very near future. To think that this conflict will not impact gold is the 'loopy' concept.

Again I apology for the brazen posts, we near showtime for gold. People want gold to hit thousands of dollars an onze, are THEY READY FOR THE DIRE CONSEQUENCES! Are you?

Al FulchinoSilver Collector and Kasperjack#845929/8/02; 07:44:02

Silver Collector you are more on the mark vis a vis the ME than your opponents here, don't give up.

Kasperjack, you are correct to point out the end game strategy, again vis a vis the ME. And it is because of that that we have not yet entered Iraq, in my mind. Bush had more support for an Iraq attack to oust Saddam earlier in the year, but he did not and I believe it is because the end game had not been thought through. That show remarkable patience when it comes to a politician if you think about it. Others would have ridden the wave. Bush has more of a conscience than people give him credit for. And in the end it is that single attribute that we will most value.

For a couple of days I have wanted to wite a post that counters the Jimmy Carter passivity and the Norman Mailer blindness, as time permits I will put it together. Insanity must be spoken against.
Gold is for your safety. Have you told someone today about its value?


mikalRe: Swaggerring and insulting visits#845939/8/02; 08:59:06

Intruding malcontents post here without valid purpose or personal provocation. Using stereotyping, labelling, vague attacks, and unproven abstractions. Constructive debate thrives on reasoned analysis and specifics including documentation, solid examples and comparisons. Gold is for our good, the privilage to share is wonderful, this table has the finest wood, to make the world more bountiful.
misetichSenator Levin on Saddam and Enron - The powerful Michigan Democrat dissects the possibilities of war against Iraq and why he's bearing down on Wall Street #845949/8/02; 09:03:45


Q: President Bush has recently talked about the need to attack Iraq. What do you think the U.S. should do about Saddam Hussein?
A: You start with the fact that he's a tyrant, that the world would be better off without him, and that he's a threat. That doesn't answer the question about what to do with him because we've got other tyrants and other threats who have weapons of mass destruction that we've been able to deter and contain.

So the question is: Should we continue to detain Saddam and deter him? Or do we attack him? Those are the two schools. I'm in the first school because I believe he's a survivalist.
Number one, he would use the weapon we're trying to have him not use, because he has nothing to lose. Secondly, the casualties would be significant. It would not be a cakewalk. Third, we would probably be there for a significant period of time. And fourth, there are very significant potential adverse affects in the region.

The disintegration of Iraq would be significant in terms of having a major upheaval in the region. So there are a lot of potential downsides to an attack.
Q: You made it clear in your hearings that you're not finished looking into Wall Street's dealings with Enron. What's the next step in your investigation?
A: We're going to continue to look at the role of the investment banks. We're going to look into the use of special-purpose entities in general by both investment banks and U.S. businesses.

There are some legitimate uses for them. We don't want to damage those uses, including, for instance, when they're used for mortgage-backed securities, where they're making it possible to limit liability, a legitimate goal, for ease of investment.

But there are some very illegitimate purposes too, like using them to manipulate the financial statement. We'll also be looking into the use of offshore entities to avoid taxes.

Jury still out on Levin - we'll wait for the results - lets hope he's for real

Got gold?

performdownunder:#8459509/08/02; 09:04:27

As a lurker around here, since inception , I"m usually content to just read and enjoy the many fine posts on this board, but feel compelled to add my two cents worth in recognition of your work in this area.
Imho, There are very few on this forum who recognize this entire middle eastern and now central asian situation with the same depth of understanding as you do. You have hit the nail on the head, so to speak, While I don't pretend to have any special inside information placing me in a position of authority on this subject. It should be most obvious to anyone able to follow the sequence of events thus far, that this is a geo-political event , pure and simple, having just about everything to do with oil, and very little of any consequence or effect on the battle against terrorism , or least of all the spread of nuclear weapon capability in the world. Someone here mentioned earlier, that if the possession of nuclear weapons was a valid reason for a military attack and subsequent occupation , read "regime change", then we should expect this Iraq action to be only the preamble to a more concentrated effort in any number of other sovereign "regimes" ie: Israel,Pakistan,Russia, India and so on. Of course, we also know this would never happen, no matter how logical the progression of events, for reasons well understood by the political elitists . Although this should serve to make the reasoning behind this war mongering stance on Iraq more apparent, and perhaps allow for a better understanding of what is actually taking place, right before our eyes.

misetichBill Gross - Dow 5,000#8459609/08/02; 09:22:03


My message is as follows: stocks stink and will continue to do so until they're priced appropriately, probably somewhere around Dow 5,000, S&P 650, or NASDAQ God knows where. Now I guess I'm on somewhat of a rant here but come on people get a hold of yourselves. Earnings have been phonied up for years and the market still sells at high multiples of phony earnings. Dividends and dividend increases have been miserly to say the least for several decades now and you've been hoodwinked into believing the CORPORATION should hold on to them for you so that they can convert them into capital gains and save you taxes. Companies have been diluting your equity via stock options claiming that management needs incentives of millions of dollars just to get up in the morning and come in to work. Then they pick you off by trading on insider information, selling shares before the bad news hits and you have a chance to get out. If you try to get a hot IPO you find all the shares are taken - by Bernie Ebbers. Come on stockholders of America, are you naïve, stupid, masochistic, or better yet, in this for the "long run?" Ah, that's it, you own stocks for the "long run." We bond managers may have had a few good relative years but who can deny Stocks for the Long Run? Not Jeremy Siegel, not Peter Lynch, maybe not even Bill Gross if you stretch the time period long enough - 20, 30, 40 years. But short of that, stocks can be, and often have been poor investments. The return on them depends significantly on their beginning valuation and right now valuation remains poor. Dow 5,000 is more reasonable. Let's see why.
If you start from day one with P/E's too high or importantly, dividends too low, you will not obtain equity returns in excess of bonds. Seems simple enough. People know that if they pay twice the market price for their house, that it will take years and years to get their money or their equity out. Somehow though when it comes to stocks they forget.
Ninety percent of the market's real return then came from factors other than earnings growth. Most of it came from the initial dividend yield.

And so dear reader, in an attempt to keep this simple and help you to plough through what can get most complicated, the primary element in determining how a stock market is priced - whether it's cheap or expensive - is its yield. At 4.2% in 1900, the market needed an additional 2.0% annual push from a tripling of P/E ratios over the century to get near that 6.7% real return. Earnings growth was a pathetically small factor. How could that be? As Peter Lynch said in a recent CNBC interview when asked about the future of the stock market, "Well, since WWII corporate profits have grown about 8 or 9 percent a year…I don't see why that won't be different the next 50 years," implying that stock prices would do the same or more. The problem is, as Peter Bernstein points out in an August 2002 research piece entitled The Trouble With Earnings, at least 50% of the earnings growth over the past 40 years has been earnings of the "mystical" kind - pro forma, operating, phonied up. Those "earnings" didn't flow through to dividends. In addition a goodly portion of Lynch's 8-9 percent - and the faster portion it turns out - has come from newly created companies that are not even listed and available for purchase by outside investors. The balance after subtracting 4 percent inflation… has been near the .6% real growth of the past 100 years or the .8% of the past 50 years. You are being hoodwinked America. You pays your money and you gets…you gets…a dividend yield and a little bit of dividend growth: .6% real over the last 100 years.

Where does that leave us (you - not me - I'm out of the market) today? Well, most large market indices (NYSE, Wilshire 5000) yield somewhere in the area of 1.7%. Whoa now, did I say 1.7%? Yes siree. And despite the claims for higher implied yields due to stock buybacks (mostly fallacious) even if we grant an "implied" yield of 2.0% to the market, it's hard to see how we can get to our 6.7% real return target. Say real dividends grow at 2.0% for the next 100 years instead of .6%. Not sure why that would be but let's just say that to be more than fair. If so, then a 2% implied dividend yield, plus 2% real dividend growth, only equals 4% - far short of our hoped for or perhaps required 6.7% of the past 100 years. How to get there? Well, absent faster economic growth which would lead to even higher dividend growth than I've already generously granted, the only way to make that happen is to start with a yield of 4.7% and the only way to do that would be to cut the market averages in half or more. Dow 4,000 would do it as would S&P 400.
If you've got even half of your marbles left, I'll bet you your number is nowhere near today's level of 8,500. That means that in order to get a real return sufficiently higher than 3.0% to meet your "risk premium" requirements the market has to go down before it can go up again. And when it starts to go up again, it's only going to produce inflation adjusted, real returns of 5% over the long run if it mimics what the market has returned over the past 100 years (absent a tripling of P/E ratios). Until then, stocks are losers and anyone who owns too many of them will be losers too. As Warren Buffett has said, in the short run the stock market is a voting machine but in the long run it's a weighing machine. Despite being down nearly 50% from its highs, this market remains overweight. Forget about "Stocks for the Long Run" until they slim down to the point from which even yours truly can admit that they will outperform the bond market. And if some of this is confusing, just remember this: the market needs to yield close to 3.5% before it approaches fair value, and that means DOW 5,000. While stocks are the best bet over the very long term, they will not be, nor will they beat bond returns until they begin the race from a fair valuation. Since in the short-term the stock market is a voting machine/popularity contest, it's impossible to say exactly when, if ever, this fair valuation mark of approximately Dow 5,000 will be reached. If it doesn't get there however, future real equity returns will be lower than 5%, and a diversified portfolio of government, mortgage, and corporate bonds will be the best performing asset class for years to come. And oh, one large caveat. If the bond market continues to rally and the Fed can successfully engineer a 2% long-term TIPS rate instead of 3%, then stock markets are actually within 10% of fair valuation. That, however, would continue to support the case for bonds as the better performing asset class. Sounds like an opening for a bond geek to write Bonds for the Long Run. Count me out - one book's enough for me.

Dow 5,000 - gold ?????

Got gold?

Al FulchinoMikal#8459709/08/02; 09:24:16

Mikal, should I believe that your post is directed to me? if so please be so brave as to say so, if not me then say who, please show direct courage. Expressing one's view as you just did should always be direct and never shrouded under the myth of decorum. It is hypocritcal at best to not be direct whether you or I make the presentation.

I have not come here to do any more than express my views, in regards to why one and their family need to posess precious metals. As the masthead states here, gold has served humanity, I hope you will leave room for it to serve me and those that think like me as well as I thoroughly hope it will serve you. If you only want a certain type poster here, I can live with that, whether you meant myself or another, I do not agree with it, but it is your view and there are plenty of adjectives to describe your post, but it will not serve any purpose, I believe that I have kept this post civil while also disagreeing with you and your approach.


misetichStephen Roach (New York)- Global: Global Reverberations #8459809/08/02; 09:27:39


There's a sinking feeling in the global economy again. Country after country, region after region, growth risks now appear to be tipping back to the downside. This comes as a serious disappointment after the apparent cyclical revival earlier this year. Is this a temporary relapse or a hint of more serious problems ahead for the world economy?

There can be no mistaking the recent downward spin to the global data flow. This time, Europe has led the way.
The case for an Asian relapse has also gained credence this summer. Not surprisingly, the cyclical outlook has deteriorated yet again in Japan. Recently released corporate statistics by the Ministry of Finance point to a downward revision in 2Q02 capital spending and GDP; the same data also underscored Japan's reliance on export-led support to boost manufacturers’ sales -- a worrisome point of vulnerability in a weakening global trade climate.
Nor has there been much of an offset from the United States. The "ISMs" deteriorated in August in the United States -- with purchasing managers’ sentiment weakening in manufacturing and in services. And in both cases, the latest readings are close to the "50 threshold" which is broadly consistent with zero-growth. Meanwhile, the early read on back-to-school sales is disappointing -- underscoring the possibility of the long-awaited retrenchment of the over-extended American consumer.
That's why the Iraq wildcard and the related possibility of an oil shock -- however brief -- shouldn't be taken lightly. It could easily qualify as the proverbial straw that breaks the back of a stalling global economy. That's precisely what occurred in the summer of 1990 when a stalling US economy was hit with a brief oil shock. Recession was quick to follow in a matter of months. I fear a similar outcome would be in the cards in the event of another spike in oil prices. But there's two key differences between today and 1990: Today's global economy is more trade intensive and more US-centric. Should America suffer a recessionary relapse, the rest of the world is lacking in the cyclical immunities that would prevent renewed global recession. In my opinion, this summer's rumblings in the global economy are warning signs of just such a possibility. A double-dip in America could easily turn into the world's double dip.

Global slowdown - overvalued stock markets -

Got gold?

misetichUnfinished Business #8459909/08/02; 09:40:48

Virtually completely uncharacteristic of recessions past, consumer credit has rocketed skyward throughout the official recession and beyond. As you know, there may be no interest on the car loan, but no one said anything about the significant principal repayment bill being a piece of cake:
Academically, we must remember that the household ownership rate in the US at present is pushing near 70%. A record number. Having said that, growth in mortgage debt has certainly outstripped the growth in homeownership rates over this period.
There was asset price "cheering" on Wall Street with the release of the recent unemployment report. The headline revealed that the unemployment rate dropped from 5.9% in July to 5.7% in August. But as usual, a peek behind the headline reveals a bit less to cheer about. It just so happens that on a net basis, private sector (non-governmental) job creation was actually negative. It's the first time this has happened since April of this year. The headline employment number read an increase of 39,000 gainfully employed bodies for the month, but the increase in government workers was 41,000. And of the government body count increase, close to one half were airport security workers. Suffice it to say that the report was actually nothing to cheer about in terms of the private sector. It's not just the employment report where tepid labor conditions are characterized. Broad economic statistics are littered with anecdotal evidence. Jobless claims data is clearly starting to resemble the jobless recovery period of the early 1990's:

Debt and more debt - sooner than later we'll have ANOTHER bubble burst - housing

Got gold?

silvercollectorAl Fulchino, others#8460009/08/02; 09:58:14

Thanks you so very much for the encouragement, I thought I was in this alone.


I will take a hint, I have made my point(s). I will stand back for awhile and watch as lurker. I hope others comment, good or bad, on my theories.

R PowellInflation // Deflation#8460109/08/02; 10:03:11

Paper Avalanche

There are two of us here, at least, who agree on this quite likely scenario of both deflation of paper assets and inflation of tangibles.
I noticed that you further defined or extended the definition of assets-at-risk of deflation to include those involving debt.

"Specifically, I believe that those assets, mainly financial, that have debt and debt service requirements (real estate, bonds) will depreciate ...."

I quess we could say the value of debt or the value of having others indebted to you will depreciate. This may be the natural outcome of the increased risk of that debt. With the case of bonds, less value demanding more interest or higher yields. Simultaneous devaluation of the purchase or sale price of the bond while its yield inflates.
I will have to disagree with your projected estimates of silver. When POG approximates $500, I would guess POS will be well above $13. The usual price determining mechanism of a commodity involves opinions centered on how much will be leftover (carryover) at the end of the marketing year. There are other considerations but this is the most influencial. Silver may soon approach a year in which the carryover may project to zero. The potential of unavailable on a timely basis at any cost may result in panic buying, especially for industrial users. The quanity of silver used in most industrial products is miniscule in comparison with its sale price. Computer makers will pay $100/ounce if necessary for what they need.
Maybe we'll have huge inflation in a small component of a product whose retail price is deflating? I believe there are those who see devaluing debt by inflating the money supply as the only way to avoid massive bankruptcy. The rising CRB may be heralding this, no?

Al FulchinoSilver Collector#8460209/08/02; 10:10:43

humbly, I say that lurking is the wrong approach, it is exactly why wrong headed laws have been enacted in towns, counties, states and at the federal level..most of society "lurks"..lurking leaves you problem free, no!, better said it leaves you conflict freeand by default others prevail, life is won by staring down those that have usurped our government and not lurking is EXACXTLY why gold has been able to serve humanity, lurking in real life is why fiat money has taken hold. so please don't lurk, you can't win the game unless you are in the FORUM.

Some will threaten to pull their marbles (the forum contributions) should you be scared?


mikal@a.f.#8460309/08/02; 10:34:26

Your claims cannot substitute for the obvious. Compete on your playing field elsewhere, will you? Your posts have not been withdrawn, nor those backing you. You have long since proven your ill-will and ambitions here and on other forums. Your demonically bloated and twisted paragraphs will never reach my ears. If ever I had the pleasure of silencing you, rest assured I would not hesitate, but it has been your privilage to self-destruct, even though you exploit the opportunity of this forum and hide behind anonymity.
Al FulchinoMikal#8460409/08/02; 10:42:48

Sounds like a personal attack or possibly a physical attack that you are threatening., fortunately my skin is thick and if the attck is meant to be physical, be prepared to face a defense. But it is important to note for the record how I percieve your post.

But I do have one question for you since you bring it up, where do you find me being anonymous? Where do I hide? The name you see on this post is just that, my name. You have me flabbergasted with that so called bit of logic.

It is obvious you have some anger and I would have to suspect or at least hope that the emotion based post is not in line with the way you behave in real life.

Fell free not to engage me in any fashion.


sectorMaking His Case - President Bush has to take on Congress before he can take out Saddam. In this high-stakes election season, that means playing hardball#8460509/08/02; 11:19:45,8599,348957,00.html


Sunday, Sep. 08, 2002
Just hours after president bush indicated that he would soon ask Congress to vote on whether to wage war against Iraq, he dispatched one of his best men to make the case. When Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made his way last Wednesday to a secure, windowless room on the top floor of the Capitol, nearly three-quarters of the Senators awaited him. They were confronting one of the gravest decisions lawmakers can face—sending troops into battle—and they expected to see the intelligence Rumsfeld and other Bush Administration officials have said would clinch the case that Saddam Hussein must go, the sooner the better. Instead, they got the kind of riff Rumsfeld uses with the Pentagon press corps. "There are three issues here," the Defense Secretary told them. "There is the issue of what we know. There is the issue of what we don't know. And there is the issue of what we don't know we don't know."

So much for a smoking gun. Rumsfeld's presentation left even stalwarts of the President's party unhappy. "We want to be with you," Oklahoma Senator Don Nickles, the Senate's second-ranking Republican, finally told him. "But you're not giving us enough." The following day, the White House and State Department phoned Senators to assess the damage. Not a fatal setback, they concluded, but the mess in Room S-407 showed that the President will have to work hard to convince Congress and the American public that a war with Iraq is in the national interest. Congress normally gives a popular Commander in Chief what he wants, but Bush has a mountain of skepticism to overcome. As Senate majority leader Tom Daschle put it, "I'm more concerned about getting this done right than getting it done quickly."

This isn't just another military adventure. This would be unlike any other war the nation has waged. Bush & Co. aren't responding to cross-border aggression or an assault on American citizens or interests. To use the President's language, this would be "pre-emptive," launched against a country that has not—yet—attacked the U.S. or its allies.

The Admin is looking like dunces…so far. They cannot have launched this wobbly thing without an ace, otherwise they come off as complete fools. Such an ace would be a WMD black mail attempt, complete with proof of the threat.

Gold is indeed set to advance towards the $330 level only this time there are several very large hedge funds swinging bats. Should $330 fall, JPM would fall too, only you won't hear an official admission for weeks after.

Congress won't approve the attack unless there is more evidence. The President knows this and is going ahead anyway therefore he must already have the needed evidence.

darkhorse@silvercollector, et all#8460609/08/02; 11:19:50

I guess I got my point across with my earlier post, but some of it was taken wrongly...please allow me to clarify. First of all silvercollector, don't stop posting, it wasn't my intention to silence you or anybody else.

I don't get offended by much at all. What I really find hard to believe is the height of arrogance our leaders seem to be showing. Sometimes feelings get in the way of reason and logic, and generalizations, suppositions and stereotypes fly without any knowledge of the subject/people at hand. I've been a place or two around the world (not the ME, admittedly) and I can tell you that underestimating ANYbody is a serious mistake. We as a nation did it to an extreme with the Japanese before and during WWII. I never have been too tolerant of people that think they can do one thing or another just because they're stronger, pissed off, jealous or whatever. Seven years in the Marine Corps amplified those attitudes. My first reaction to last years events was to strike back, but not at just anybody...I want those directly responsible. I cried like a baby that night, but I've been ready to take advantage of any opportunity, very slight tho it may be here in the upstate of SC, to kick anybody's ASSets that wants to disrupt the freedoms I enjoy...that includes foreign AND domestic idiots!

I've been accused of being a rather outspoken individual...I don't know where they get that from! So from time to time I may get on my own high horse during these more difficult times...I ask for no more latitude than I give out, so I'll accept most of the "back in your place" posts when I get carried away.

Al FulchinoDarkhorse#8460709/08/02; 11:33:11

seven years in the Marines? Have you ever heard of the Navy Marine Corp Relief Society? The stores for one of my businesses is running a silent auction to benefit it. This has nothing to do with gold, but it is a golden cause that this charity serves.


off to the pool, can u believe its 90 degrees in New England in September? :)

sectorNonlife insurers seek to protect policyholders [By Re-Arranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship]#8460809/08/02; 11:33:59

Yomiuri Shimbun

Two associations of nonlife insurance companies have compiled an interim report calling for revision of the current system to protect policyholders at failed insurers, which proposes guaranteeing insurance payments to policyholders for three months after the collapse of a nonlife insurance firm, officials of the associations said Friday.

According to the report drafted by the Marine & Fire Insurance Association of Japan and the Foreign Non-Life Insurance Association of Japan, the proposed plan would replace the existing system that guarantees up to 90 percent of the payment for an indefinite period of time in case of an insurer's failure.

After the three-month period of full protection, the collapsed nonlife insurance firm would dissolve the contracts with their policyholders and urge them to seek new policies at other insurers, the report proposed.

The report also suggested narrowing the focus of the Non-Life Insurance Policyholders Protection Corp. of Japan, the safety net mechanism established by the nonlife insurance industry to protect policyholders at failed insurers.

For example, the safety net company would reduce the amount of financial aid it offered to collapsed insurers and would no longer accept insurance contracts from the failed companies.

The interim report is to be submitted to the board of directors of the Marine & Fire Insurance Association of Japan on Sept. 19.

In December, the associations will ask the Financial Services Agency to revise the Insurance Business Law with a view that their proposals be put effect from fiscal 2003, according to the officials.

Insurance payments to policyholders at failed firms is possible because of the safety net company, which pools contributions from member firms to guarantee payments when policyholders suffer accidents or fires after the collapse of their nonlife insurance companies.

The interim report pointed out that it is appropriate to guarantee full payment of insurance claims for a certain period even after the failure of the insurer, considering the nature of policies of nonlife insurance.


Pure gibberish from the ministry of propaganda.

The insurance companies are insolvent, life and non-life. These actions are designed to hoodwink investors.

kasperjackWashington Accord#8460909/08/02; 12:03:10

Goldbugs Measure Other Goldbugs Via Their Interpretation of WA

My personal take on the Washington Accord. LTCM went broke in the summer of the prior year. I've read they defaulted on 300 tonnes of gold contracts. The fed stepped in and carrried the contracts, much like the PPT stepped in post sept 11. That physical gold had to be bought back on the open market. One year later the Washington Accord was floated allegedly to help out the gold industry. They loudly proclaimed how gold prices went upwards shortly after their announcement. In my opinion the WA signatories supplied a base of physical gold supply that enabled the bankers to step in and close out the 300 tonne short gold position. Without the Washington Accord physical gold committment the bankers would have driven gold much much higher. So LTCM was cleaned up and the other bullion bank short sellers were saved from their own short selling catastrophes. If you noticed the subsequent sales of gold under the Washington Accord were worked to cap the price of gold. Brown and the BOE left no doubt about that.The Washington Accord did not provide the stability for higher gold prices as indicated by the original statements accompanying its announcement. I suspect my position may be proven, if one can establish the proof of the statements concerning LTCM being short 300 tonnes of gold.
kasperjackWA Addendum#8461009/08/02; 12:34:25

If the Central Banks were truly interested in helping the gold industry the Washington Accord would have been accompanied by some kind of reduction in the volume of their gold leasing practises. Today the contango is accomplishing that objective. You may soon be able to witness what what the CB's are prepared to do for the gold industry heh heh. I expect they must act at around $350 gold. P.S. The Russian and the Asian central banks appear to be gravitating towards increasing their gold reserves. What else can they do with the dollar dangling over the edge of a massive cliff? And the Euro block is slowly and surely parting company with the Dollar block. Thus the CB's should not be considered as a monolithic cabal either. They are fracturing right before our very eyes. And the prospect of War in the Mid East is tightening the screws by the minute.
silvercollectorComments#8461109/08/02; 12:45:36


Appreciate your note. I have spoke my bit of the war front, I will 'lurk' in that regard. As this plays out (and in short order I am afraid) I might, emphasis on might, add more to the plot. To me things are crystal clear, they will go 'this way' or 'that way'. The justifications will be oil or 911 or WMD or whatever they dream up.


Appreciate your note as well. Your Marine Corp experience impresses me. I value your opinion.


Comments will be tense as ME events fold/unfold. We live in interesting times, we live in dangerous times. Take care of you and yours.

As Another would say, 'I will be gone for a time'.

tedwHow far have we strayed from what is right,just and proper?#8461209/08/02; 13:43:11

Hepburn vs Griswold 8 Wall 513:

The Court held that:

"we are obliged to conclude that an act making mere promises to pay dollars a legal tender in payment of debts previously contracted is not a means appropriate plainly
adopted and really calculated to carry into effect any express power vested in Congress and such an act is inconsistent with the spirit of the Constitution and that it is prohibited by the Constitution"


Your birthright has been stolen. Whats worse is that you probably never even knew what it was due to the brainwashing that passes for education in the public schools.

Wake up

Al FulchinoTed W#8461309/08/02; 13:56:45

Long time no talk..hope all is well with you. Things are great here.

A question if I may. Your post just below this one highlights our history and the system from whence we have come. Your piece cannot make things any more clear. My question is this. How do overcome the current attitude that leads to a society that does not care about history, the rule of law, or the serious predicament of using non-honest money? How to you get the message out?


Andúriltedw on shore#8461409/08/02; 14:09:18

This is a deep ocean. When feet cannot reach the solid base men must tread water or swim. Are you angry at those who swim?

There is a word, bilateral netting, that is new-fangled in speech but old in practice.

Before you tirade against those who swim, evaluate the soundness of your own position. Consider carefully what effect the age-old practice of netting obligations brought against the soundness of gold standards.

You may find new meaning in what passes under the name legal tender. You may want to swim with the many and buy gold at market price!

BelgianBuckingham Palace#8461509/08/02; 14:56:42

The big US and UK-Anglo-Dutch oil companies (Shell/BP) must be dictating the ME war agenda . Bush/Cheney/Powell/The Queen of Great Britain and her servant Tony are using double standards. Khadaffi, still in power after Lockerby drama (mini WTC). A faction within the Netherlands (another Queen), is discretely pro Iraq occupation. And the love affair with the unstable nuclear power (WMD) Pakistan. France and Germany (TotalFina/Elf Aquitaine/Lukoil) anti Iraq occupation. Confirmed in joint statement on saturday by Shroder/Chirac.

Many other conflict-situations in LESS-important-oil regions are *politically* settled after negociations/maneuvering with more peacefull (less radical) pressures (Columbia/Nigeria/Venezuela/Libye/Mexico/Sudan/Angola/ etc...).

Is US/UK/Dutch non OPEC oil also active on the Gold front as to saveguard that dollar-currency in witch their oil trade is settled (UK gold auctions)?
Save the dollar and avoid oil for euro ? No problem for Euroland oil companies.
Is there increasing tension around the Caspian oil region as to bring these rich reserves from under the Russian pro-euro, sphere of influence, under the dollar domination ?
Russian oil for US$ and NOT possibly euro ?

It all comes down, repeatedly, to dollar/oil/euro/Gold and geopolitico powerplays, where so much detours are made, that it isn't obvious for the masses.
Isn't it remarkable that on the eart-summit in Joburg, there was not one single word about this basic resource, crude oil, and/or the floating currency circus around the dominating, dollar-reserve !?

Is it the Queen of GB, with her immense oil-interests, who decided that the UK should stick to the US$-imperium and not join EMU in opposition to a growing popular sympathetic stance on EMU ? Evidenced by Tony's flipflop stance on Iraq.

Fibonacci numbers serie is : 1 - 3 - 5 - 8 - 13 - 21 - 34 - 55 - 89 - 144.
Saddam wanted 21$ for POO pré 1990. Price test for POO stopped ad 34$ and the oil devil himself, Osama BL, wants 144$ per barril !? (fun)

Wich of the 3 dollar-challengers will break its back : 1/ POO > 2/ POG > 3/ EURO ? Or a combination of 2 or 3 out of this 3 ? Or will it be the dollar itself succombing under its own debt-weight ?

Sierra MadreSector: Bush going to convince Congress...#8461609/08/02; 14:59:16

Zbig Brezinski - on T.V. last week with Brian Williams, said that if Bush asks Congress to approve the aggression on Iraq, that Congress will approve it.

That doesn't bode well. Congress is not going to stop Bush from entering this huge mistake, that's Zbig's qualification of a pre-emptive war on Iraq without the approval and backing of the U.N. Zbig said this would cause a terrific disruption of the international system, and it would be a dreadful mistake. He was absolutely emphatic about this. I must say I was impressed by Zbig's projection of power through his image on the screen. He should be the President.

Somehow, I have the feeling that Bush's heart is not really in this war. He is sort of trapped by what he has been saying - shooting his mouth off, perhaps - and now: how can he back off without appearing a great fool?

Perhaps we won't have this war, after all. If that's so, fasten seat belts there's going to be a swift drop in POG and POO, which will last a couple of weeks, perhaps a month.


Camel Vietnam#8461709/08/02; 15:03:16

Good short article on Vietnam
Old Yellersilvercollector,just the facts#8461809/08/02; 16:03:38

"This is a gold forum,oil and war have everything to do with gold.This forum has discussed oil,war,politics and government since it's inception,that's what gold is,believe it."

Well said,the only thing I'd like to add to the list
is the "Axis Of Evil";the Federal Reserve and their
out of thin air "money".

Greenspan's latest speech is revolting deception
taken to it's highest power.The man's shameless huckstering and wanton credit creation have everything to do with the
dilemmas we face today.

Gimli_Iraq/M.E. War Already Started#8461909/08/02; 17:00:00

US-UK Air Raid Friday over Iraq's H-3, Al Baghdadi
Air Bases Friday Knocked out Surface Missile Batteries
Pointing at Jordan and Israel

A. Hitting the H-3, site of the bulk of the ground-ground-missile batteries and air defense installations threatening Israeli, Jordan and US Eastern Mediterranean forces, as well as al Baghdadi, cleared the way for US special
forces to be flown by helicopter across the border into Iraq from the West.
Nothing now stops them from reaching as far as Tikrit, Saddam Hussein's tribal stronghold northwest of Baghdad, where the Iraqi ruler is believed to be hiding underground with his family and top officials. There too he has
concentrated the bulk of the loyal units of the Iraqi army.

The first mission for the US units crossing in from Jordan will be, according to DEBKAfile's military sources, to capture the bombed air installations and prepare them quickly for the use of US air force units and
for more US and Jordanian special forces landings.

H-3 is designated their jumping off base for the next stage of the campaign.

B. Since August 5, the way for an American advance into Iraq is also clear from the south.
Therefore, the general contours of the next US steps begin to take shape:
1. A combined US-Turkish force, backed by local groups, will complete the capture of northern Iraq and its oil cities.
2. The combined US-Jordanian force will advance on Baghdad and Tikrit.
3. The heavy military and armored units massed on the Kuwait-Iraq frontier will advance north in two heads - one forking off to the east and heading for Basra, while the other makes for the Shiite towns of Najef and Karbala
on the Baghdad highway.

C. Our sources report that the air strike against H-3 and al Baghdadi destroyed some of Saddam's ground-to-ground missiles, reducing the missile threat to Israel,Jordan and US East Mediterranean forces, though not eliminating it. Also destroyed were some of the Czech-manufactured LA-29
trainer planes sighted at al Baghdad in recent months, with aerosols fitted to their wings that are capable of spraying poison substances on the ground like anthrax. Some of the LA-29 have been adapted for kamikaze missions.

D. No less important politically,DEBKAfile's military sources stress, is that some of the US assault craft took off from and returned to the Saudi Prince Sultan air base, 35 miles northeast of Riyadh, as well as from Kuwait, Bahrain and Qatar.

As DEBKA-Net-Weekly reported in its last issues, the Bush administration is resolved to brush aside the public objections of Saudi leaders to the use of the kingdom's bases against Iraq. American generals do not propose to heed
the public declarations of rulers of lands where US bases are located, but to use them according to American military exigencies.

slingshotDarkhorse#8462009/08/02; 17:20:45


Hang in there partner.
Condition Yoke.
Buy Gold.


Golden BearInflation/deflation discussion...#8462109/08/02; 18:19:40

I would just like to say a big thank you to all you contributed to the discussion over the weekend regarding inflation/deflation. The thoughts expressed by each have been taken onboard for further reflection and observation as this global house of cards unfolds...

This forum truly is amazing, as the depth of knowledge and wisdom shown by those past and present allows one's rapid development on broad topics which affect all our lives in one way or another.

I feel privileged to be amongst you all.

I bow my head in appreciation...

ArcticfoxWorld economic outlook looks terrible....#8462209/08/02; 18:31:57

Walker's World: A looming depression?
By Martin Walker
UPI Chief International Correspondent

FRANKFURT, Germany, Sept. 4 (UPI) -- One of Germany's top economists is warning the country's leading bankers that Europe, and the rest of the world, are in dire danger of following Japan into a deflationary depression -- far more serious and prolonged than a conventional recession.

"The people running the world's central banks and those responsible for economic policy should take the signs much more seriously," argues Norbert Walter, chief economist for Deutsche Bank, Germany's largest, in a paper made available exclusively to United Press International.
Walter, sunk in gloom after returning from a research trip to Asia, is circulating the paper in a bid to influence the world's financial leaders at the autumn meeting of the International Monetary Fund and World Bank in Washington at the end of the month.
Speaking in his Frankfurt office as the New York and European markets followed the plunge of the Tokyo stock market Tuesday, Walter warned, "If we don't get this right, we face a second leg of recession, a double-dip, combining with deflation."
The world last experienced deflation on a serious scale during the Great Depression of the 1930s. It is a condition when prices start falling, investors stop investing and companies and individuals still committed to paying off old loans go bankrupt because lower prices and lower wages give them no money to repay.
"Look at the facts," Walter said. "Japan has watched deflation over the past three years. Consumers and entrepreneurs in all areas are postponing purchase decisions. The other Asian giant, China (including Hong Kong), is also experiencing a decline in the price level.
"In the U.S., consumer price inflation is running at just barely 1 percent. As studies like the Boskin report have shown, the method of price measurement overestimates the actual price level by about one-half to a full percentage point. This means the price level in the U.S. is practically stable, and the augurs now speak of a double-dip, a second drop in economic activity."
"In Germany, prices at the consumer level are following the U.S. pattern almost down to the decimal point and domestic demand is even more sluggish, particularly in construction and retail sales. Wholesale prices are falling."
"Around the world, the indicators leave no room for talk of an upswing. The economy is in a downswing, as declining capacity utilization and increasing unemployment show. Recession cannot be ruled out, considering the multitude and seriousness of the trouble spots and potential risks to economic growth. To mention just a few -- the accounting scandals, the crisis in Latin America and the looming war with Iraq."
Walter's prescription is for a coordinated international stimulus to get the world economy moving again. But with interest rates so low, the Japanese and American central banks have little room to cut them further, and the European Central Bank has been deaf to earlier appeals to cut rates from their current 3.25 percent. That leaves only fiscal policy and tax cuts -- and deficit spending -- as a way to get money into consumers' hands again.
"The people at the top seem to be losing the sight of the big picture," he added. "Procyclical policy is being declared the only politically correct attitude. See Germany's response to the flood crisis -- postponing a badly needed tax cut, a reaction ill advised by its implications for both demand and supply-side.
"Heads of state are not economists, and their minds are currently busy with other things. The central bankers either lack the means or the conviction to cut interest rates. So it would seem appropriate if the IMF's experts assume the unassigned role of international policy coordinators."
As well as a coordinated international effort to boost the global economy through fiscal measures, Walter also sees a need for more international coordination to correct current exchange rates.
"The U.S. and above all Europe must help the Japanese out of the deflation spiral by supporting them in their efforts to lower the yen. Since the U.S., bearing in mind the current account deficit, can scarcely afford a significant effective appreciation of the dollar, the EU will have to permit its own currency to gain more strength. That signals a particular need to stimulate domestic demand by interest rate cuts. The best thing would be if Europe were to support this process with stimulatory fiscal policy."
But with Germany distracted by its election, the European Central Bank required by its statutes to fight any sign of inflation, and the straitjacket of the EU's Stability Pact requiring euro countries to cut their budget deficits, stimulus packages look politically unlikely. The stars are all aligned, fears the top economist of Germany's biggest bank, for a very dismal economic outlook.

Comment...and there are many theories as to what Au will do in above presented economic path. I tend towards the 'safe haven status' and, at least for a while, probably the only safe currency avenue.

MKBelgian. . .#8462309/08/02; 18:37:05

Thanks for dragging a lantern into this darkened corridor with respect to the role of oil and MidEast politics Western style. British Petroleum's stake in Kuwait wouldn't have anything to do with British foreign policy, would it? Wondering lately who has the stake (the concession in Iraq)?? Anyone know?? As they say. . . .Follow the money!!

Posted with thoughts of King Saud counting those gold British Sovereigns forked over for the original oil concession there. (Big smile)

As Randy pointed out to me one time: "He counted every single one."

MKI might add, Belgian, and for anyone who might find interest in the matter. . .#8462409/08/02; 18:43:42

During the entirety of the last Gulf War, with carnage and destruction everywhere one looked, the pipelines in Iraq remained untouched. . . . . . . . . . . So one question for a fleeting moment what constitutes real war and what the modern state is willing to sacrifice to win. . . . . .
steady(No Subject)#8462509/08/02; 18:46:27

rember not to long ago the post about the japanes community that was circulating its own money?
well the same thing is happening here in the usa

Aug. 30 — Time is money in Ithaca, N.Y., where they spend "Hours" instead of dollars to keep the local economy alive

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• Remembering Sept. 11: Full Coverage
• Foreign Journalists: U.S. Seen as 'a Greedy Bully'
• The Tale of a Boy and His Goose

• 50 States, One Nation
• Ithaca's Strange Currency

When Jim Houghton, a graphic designer in Ithaca goes shopping at the local farmers' market, he makes his purchases with a local currency, called Ithaca "Hours."
"Sometimes I spend them in restaurants or movie theaters," said Steve Sierigk, the designer of the 1/8 Hour denomination. "I think that it is in the spirit of self reliance and also really helps the small businesses a lot and builds community, which I think are all-American."

Ithaca is one of many communities in the United States that has added a local currency as a way to encourage a community's self-reliance and interdependence. Ithaca was particularly hard hit by the recession in the late '80s, so in 1991, residents created their own currency in order to help people who didn't have money to spend.
to bad they arent backed by gold. could this become a trend?

Chris PowellUrgent commentaries and derivatives data at Golden Sextant#8462609/08/02; 18:54:19

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Black BladeWorld Economy Missing Strong Japan #8462709/08/02; 19:39:27

With the United States Struggling, World Is Feeling Lack of Strong Japanese Economy


NEW YORK (AP) -- The slide in Japan's Nikkei stock market and the subsequent sell-off in world markets last week came as a bit of a wake-up call. Maybe Japan does matter to the global economy after all. For some time, the world had gotten used to living with Japan's economic and financial woes. Until last year, the U.S. economy was growing at an extremely healthy clip even as Japan suffered through a painful deflationary spiral and carried the burden of a banking sector laden with an estimated $1.3 trillion in bad debts.

While many international economists and policy makers continued to warn of risks to global growth unless Japan broke free of its decade-long economic stagnation, many others came to see Japan as irrelevant. But now, with the United States struggling to emerge from last year's recession and Europe still seeing sluggish growth, there's a palpable sense of regret among economists. It's clear that the world could really do with that third engine of growth right now.

Black Blade: The situation has become so desperate that the Japanese government has intervened through the BOJ to weaken the domestic currency against the US dollar. The effort has been a dismal failure as the government pissed away several $billion of taxpayer wealth. The government also intervened in the stock market squandering Japanese pension funds and the Japanese postal funds trying to prop up the crashing Nikkei 225. Recently there have been several high profile arrests of Japanese corporate executives over issues of corruption similar to problems seen in the US markets. The Japanese unemployment rate is now at an all time record level. Now there are rumors that the Japanese will try again by squandering another several $billion by intervening in the Nikkei 225. I suspect that we shall see Japanese seek out safe haven Gold holdings again as the inevitable crash continues on the Nikkei 225, as guarantees for bank deposits are withdrawn, and as the failed banking system slips off into the abyss. It looks more and more like Argentina except on a much grander scale. "Interesting Times"

Meanwhile, the Nikkei 225 is higher on the mistaken belief that the US employment data is a positive indicator. The rise in US employment is largely due to increases in jobs for "Homeland Security" and returning teachers at the start of the new school year. It is surprising that the number isn't much higher, however, the loss of jobs in the private sector (especially in manufacturing) is so great that the unemployment rate would have normally risen a couple of tenths of a percentage point. The drop in consumer spending is largely a result of worries over job losses and that should be a clear warning sign to Japanese exporters.

Gandalf the WhiteHow many Goldhearts REMEMBER the 2nd Year Happy BD CONTESTS !#8462809/08/02; 20:27:18

That's right --- CONTESTS -- SIR MK had THREE Contests going at the SAME TIME ! <;-) Please watch what SIR MK comes up with THIS 4th Birthday Celebration !!!
USAGOLD (09/17/00; 11:59:35MT - msg#: 36844)
I would like to welcome our new posters and say once again how much I appreciate the quality of the people posting here both in terms of what you contribute and the way in which you make that contribution. It never ceases to amaze me what we have accomplished here -- all of us. We grow not only in numbers but the quality of the additions is something in which all the Table should take pride. Each poster -- no matter how they present themselves -- plays an important role here. None of this would have happened if not for the efforts, personalities and knowledge of the extraordinary people who have gathered here already and laid the groundwork for who came later. We indeed walk in the footsteps of giants, and have cause to celebrate our second birthday.

I've always held to the "build-it-and-they-will-come" philosophy. I do not think that any of us who have been here from the beginning either as posters or lurkers would have guessed that a Forum could actually boast a personality -- but this one does. People know it, and when they decide to become posters it is in the belief and understanding that they are part of something special, and making their views known without fear of being flamed in the process. I sincerely believe that is why we attract the quality thinkers in the gold arena -- people who want to test theories, gain an intelligent response and trade information and ideas in an atmosphere of fellowship and fair-play. That's not to underplay the common thread that joins all of us -- a belief that the role of gold in modern politics and economy (and our portfolios) has not been diminished by the latest new economy and new world order. I can safely say that there is no other Discussion Forum or Group anywhere like USAGOLD Forum.

Thanks one and all. . . .



Let's Celebrate USAGOLD's Birthday!!

This week we celebrate our Second Birthday on September 22, 2000.

To celebrate, we hereby call all members of this illustrious and sturdy Oaken Table to a contest of posting prowess, erudition and skill (as well as a dose of good luck). There will be three separate contests and three separate awards. You can enter all three or as many as you like:

First, in thirty words or more. . .an answer to the question:

If I, a USAGOLD _______________, ( Fill in the blank -- a "poster", or a "lurker"), were to name the one specific development or event that would break gold out of this price range, it would be ________________________. ( Name the event or development.) Why?

Or alternatively,

I, a USAGOLD _______________, ( Fill in the blank -- a "poster", or a "lurker"), keep returning to this Forum because

Entrants can choose one or the other. All entries in the first contest must be posted by Friday, September 22, 2000, 5 pm MDT -- USAGOLD's Official Birthday. There will be one winner who will be awarded a Uruguay Five Peso gold coin. There will two runner's up who will receive each a one tenth ounce contemporary gold bullion coin.


***********"CONTEST #1"************


Two, on September 22, 2000, (USAGOLD's Birthday) at the COMEX close the exact gold price on the December contract will be $ _______________.

All entries must be posted by Tuesday, September 19th 5pm along with a short explanation of 30 words or less why you think gold will finish there. The Winner will receive a French Angel -- because you have to have an angel on your shoulder to win this one. The next two closest prices will get U.S. silver Eagles.




Three, USAGOLD, because of its name, has a special connection with the Olympics. By the end of the Olympic session on Friday, September 22, 2000, the top three nations in terms of Gold Medals won will be

1. __________

2. __________

3. __________

The winner must have both the countries in their proper order AND the exact number of gold medals awarded. The winner will receive a Denmark 20 Kroner Mermaid gold coin and a Denmark 10 Kroner. These entries must be made by Wednesday, September 20, 2000 5 pm MDT. There must also be a short explanation why you think things will stack up as you say. I know this is off subject but that's OK. We have become an international forum and the Olympics are of interest to us all. There will be no runners up.


########### GOLD MEDALS GUESS ############

Is SIR MK going to "outdo" himself again THIS YEAR ?
The Hobbits are watching and waiting.

tedwOvercoming current attitudes toward non-honest#8462909/08/02; 20:32:53


To be honest I dont know. The bulk of Americans do not realize our money is illegal. Many younger Americans are shocked to learn that our coin was once silver. There is no hope the educational system will change things, an honest teacher of history would be fired for teaching the truth. The screening process that Federal Judges undergoe guarantees that none of them are going to rock the boat.
The Supreme Court will not hear a money case.

Perhaps its time to forsake the Republican Party and support the Constitution Party.

In my opinion, Judges Scalia and Thomas should speak out on these issues but they dont, even though they seem to be good men.

I am afraid this right to honest money has been stolen and maybe in our lives we will never see Constitutional money restored.

Perhaps one day a worthless inflated currency and much suffering will cause the American People to remember our Constitution and the wisdom of our Founding Fathers.

Until then I suppose all we can do is teach our children the truth and, when timely, point it out to our fellow citizens.

If this sounds like I am not optimistic, its true Im not.

Ted W
Long time no talk..hope all is well with you. Things are great here.

A question if I may. Your post just below this one highlights our history and the system from whence we have come. Your piece cannot make things any more clear. My question is this. How do overcome the current attitude that leads to a society that does not care about history, the rule of law, or the serious predicament of using non-honest money? How to you get the message out?


WaveriderJapan considering stock boost #8463009/08/02; 20:36:20

"The Japanese prime minister Junichiro Koizumi is planning to invest three trillion yen (£15bn) of public money into the country's struggling stock market, according to reports. Japanese news agencies reported on Sunday that the prime minister had bowed to pressure from his ruling party, who are calling for contributions to save the market from collapse."

Waverider: "T" - that's three trillion yen! Unbelievable, then what?...tick tock....

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8463109/08/02; 20:39:53

UPDATE #9 (as of Saturday at 20:30 Denver time 9/8/02)

FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7

Listed in descending order of Price

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
The Hobbits count 67 official Prognostications so far, and less than four days to go before the Thursday HIGH NOON Denver time DEADLINE !

sector@Sierra Madre We See the Same Landscape...from different perspectves#8463209/08/02; 21:01:49

Your opined: "If there is no war, POG will fall"

Bombs are already falling, Special Ops units already in country and heavy armor on site massing at the Kuwaiti border with shiploads of heavy tracked vehicle reinforcements on the way. Bush has already started the war.

However, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose that there is no war.

Will pog and poo fall? No...because the reason for the war in the first instance is to mask a crashing economy and somehow garner spoils with value [Petroleum]. Without a war the economy really falls even faster. Just regard the letest "Employment" Admin data [They hired a gaggle of Homelanders to "Make" the numbers look good].

Investors in gold know all this and are adding to positions in advance of the combination of war/crashing DOW [Even Lawrence Lindsay, Bush's econ advisor, is building an economic and DOW bomb shelter at the White House]. There's more: A World -Wide credit morass complete with bankruptcies and bond liquidations…clearly unavoidable. Japan is a ball and chain, no longer and engine.

That the economy is in wild disequiblibrium can be seen by visiting the ECRI's site [Economic Cycles Research Institute] <>.
The FIG or future inflation gauge has swung crazily from minus 15% inflation to plus18.8% inflation in the last year indicating a wholly unstable economy that is clearly out of the Fed's [Or anyone else's] control.

The arguments back and forth here regarding deflation or inflation is really a "Tastes great/Less filling" mantra. You get BOTH door number 1 [Inflation] AND door number 2 [deflation]. These virlulent diseases are just in different economic sectors at the same time.

So gold rises no matter what...a coiled spring.

To be out of this gold market is to be taking an unwarranted risk.

sectorWASH TIMES: U.S. national security agencies are on alert for a terrorist attack#8463309/08/02; 21:40:36

Drudge Report

WASH TIMES: U.S. national security agencies are on alert for a terrorist attack after the discovery that a Middle Eastern man carried out suspicious surveillance of the Washington Monument, the Pentagon and other buildings in the area...

MORE... The man in question videotaped the Washington Monument on the Mall on Sept. 1 and paced off several distances around the monument, according to U.S. intelligence officials...

The Admin knows more than they are saying about war justifications.

kasperjackThe Workings of the Federal Reserve Bank for Dummies#8463409/08/02; 22:03:22

I came across a reference to this article in a post by Foodog Foofighter. This is a must read for every gold investor.
goldquestOil From Iraq#8463509/08/02; 22:55:22

A 1998 article, but I doubt that things have changed a whole lot.
Yukon$$$$323.60$$$$#8463609/08/02; 22:57:32

Greetings to all. Gold and silver are important to me because they are the foundation that our founding fathers wanted for our monetary system here in these united States of America. They came to this decision after living through and seeing first hand the ravages of paper money (i.e. "Not worth a Continental"). So, to make sure the evils of unbacked paper never needed to be dealt with again, they placed a few key statements into our countries founding documents. Article I, Section 10 is the most obvious.

I have often wondered how we can be living today under the supposed rule of our Constitution when such major violations exist. And if you look closely do you know what you will find? Answer: There are more violations of our Constitution than just the money issue. For example, how can Congress have jurisdiction over so much of our lives when the powers they are granted are so limited by the Constitution? Further, how can Congress re-delegate a power that we the people have delegated to them (i.e. the private for profit corporation known as the Federal Reserve now runs our monetary policy and acts as the country's central bank and sets its agendas to benefit itself even at the harm and expense of the American public)?

Frustration is something that I have come to deal with rather well. For once understood, knowledge can be a dual edged sword; on the one side shiny and bright, like a newly minted gold coin- yet on the other dark and disturbing, like a secret society with plans for enslavement of the worlds population throught its use of debt money.

What happens to a nation when it goes bankrupt?! When the large majority of citizens are over extended in debt? When the small businesses and large corporations alike are over extended in debt? When businesses use accounting gimmicks to cover losses and APPEAR more profitable then they really are? When the government that rules the nation is itself so far overextended in debt? When government must use its own set of dishonest and deceiving rules and standards to show how strong its currency is and how government has done such a great job at providing the necessary stimulus to keep the economy moving forward? When almost every aspect of government is lie? I ask again, what happens when a nation goes bankrupt?

Well, hopefully, before the major agony of life in the U.S.A. being turned on its ear ever gets fully underway, some fine human will come along with all the answers...and hopefully that person has with them a copy of N.E.S.A.R.A.(the National Economic Stabilization and Recovery Act, For of all the solutions to the worlds problems I have heard, this truly comes close to bringing everything back into alignment with what is just and right. I frequent this forum almost daily, yet I have not heard any support or condemnation for this project. Any comments would be very welcome on this NESARA bill.

My guess of $323.60 is due to the fact that the Fed's puppets (i.e. Citigroup, J.P. MorganChase, Goldman Suchs)still have a good grip on their derivatives paper market and probably will for quite some time to come. Gold is looking bullish again with the recent launch from the $310 area, but we must not forget that this is a paper market and these banks have the ability and capital to sell a lot of contracts and put options (naked, unhedged and unbacked if need be)to keep this market from elevating into the danger zone. Plus, there is a gap that will need to be filled in created back on Labor Day. This will have a negative (albeit small in the face of all the other positive fundamentals) technical bias on the chart.

Shun debt and add to your stash of PMs as knowledge and wealth dictate.

Viva Liberty!


Chris PowellBarron's interviews James Turk about gold and mentions ESF#8463709/08/02; 23:22:22

Barron's interviews GATA consultant James Turk
about gold and mentions the Exchange Stabilization
Fund's efforts to suppress the price:

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

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Black BladeSpot's A Bit Frisky#8463809/08/02; 23:42:54

Spot is getting a bit frisky in Asia tonight. It was quite amusing all those who were calling for Gold to fall back low its lows. Some even were claiming to be "Extremely Bearish" or some such nonsense. Yet here we are still consolidating over $300 an ounce before the next leg up. Gols appears to have disconnected from its counter-cyclical nature compared to stocks now that geopolitical tensions are dominant.

- Black Blade

MarkeTalkReplay of September 11th?#846399/9/02; 00:29:26

Tonight I received an e-mail from a client who is also a personal friend. In his e-mail he quoted Monte Judah, a Messianic believer in the biblical end times. While his writing deals with spiritual matters relating to Israel and the Gentile church, it struck me that he could really be onto something which secular analysts have missed. For example, he refers to the time between September 13, 1993 and September 2000 as the key dates for the unfolding of the stock market's meteoric rise and subsequent crash. (Just look at a chart and you will see how correct he is.) He bases his analysis on the figure of Joseph who interpreted Pharoah's dream of seven fat years (plentiful grain supplies and prosperity for everyone) and seven lean years (no food due to drought and poverty). He contends that our present time mirrors this Old Testament time rather uncannily.

This time period from September 1993 until September 2000 also marks the last seven years of relative peace and calm in Israel. Then in September 2000, the stock market began to drop in earnest and the latest installment of the Intifada started after Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount. Then one year later we had the September 11th tragedy. And now we are in the same time frame of September when something BIG could happen. In one of my recent posts (message #83043), I went into great detail about the prognostications of secular market analyst, Arch Crawford, who said that gold could experience an "excruciating rise in price" during the period from September 11-24. And I find it no coincidence that the Bush Administration is beating the war drums now louder than ever for an attack on Iraq.

As I said last month, I am not optimistic about the coming days and weeks in the month of September. And with the latest corroborating evidence from a nonsecular source, I feel even more so inclined. So to all of my past and present clients and clients-to-be, if you need to begin an accumulation program or if you need to add to your holdings, then by all means give me a call as soon as possible before some big bad event is plastered all over the evening news. Oil prices are again at $30/barrel and gold is over $320/ounce with the US Dollar on the skids. These things are harbingers of things to come. I can be reached on extension 102.


BlackjackManagement using cash for buybacks while insiders selling!#846409/9/02; 00:35:09

Not one of the stocks in BuyBack Letter's "Dogs of the Dow" portfolio -- the five Dow stocks with heaviest current buybacks -- get a positive rating from Vickers. Boeing (BA: news, chart, profile) and AT&T (T: news, chart, profile) are neutral -- insiders are not decisively buying or selling. General Motors (GM: news, chart, profile), Philip Morris (MO: news, chart, profile) and Exxon Mobil (XOM: news, chart, profile) are all being sold by insiders, with General Motors the heaviest.

These are all stocks, remember, where the management that is selling personally is simultaneously buying on behalf of the shareholders.
This is toooo rich.
Management is using stockholder's cash to do big stock
buybacks, while these very same insiders are selling the stock.
What could this mean? Would corporate CEO's be so bold as
to use stockholder's cash to pump up stock, so they can cash
in their stock options? Naw, that would be too cynical.

Black BladeIndian army says shelling resumes on Pakistan border#846419/9/02; 01:36:56

Musharraf warns of danger of conflict


KARGIL, India (AP) Indian and Pakistani border troops exchanged intense artillery fire Sunday in the divided Kashmir region, as Pakistan's president said relations between the two countries were at their ''lowest ebb'' in years. In a speech at Harvard University, President Pervez Musharraf said that India's and Pakistan's ''forces confront each other eyeball to eyeball with most dangerous possibilities of the eruption of conflict by accident.'' The two nuclear-armed nations have massed hundreds of thousands of troops at the border since India blamed Pakistan-based Islamic militants for a deadly attack on India's Parliament late last year that threatened to push the neighbors into war.

Black Blade: Two nuclear powers edge closer to the abyss. One day they will likely spark up the big one.

SpartacusUS Jan-July machine tool demand down 23.8 pct #846429/9/02; 02:02:19

WASHINGTON, Sept 8 (Reuters) - U.S. machine tool demand in the first seven months of 2002 has plunged nearly 24 percent
Machine tools are used to shape metal for such products as car engines, refrigerators and television sets. Demand for these tools can provide a leading indicator of the pace of manufacturing.

SpartacusJapan's August Bank Lending Slides 4.4%, Choking Money Supply#846439/9/02; 02:08:00

Tokyo, Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Japanese bank lending fell last month to extend a nearly six-year slide, a Bank of Japan report showed, choking the flow of money to companies and consumers and threatening to slow Japan's recovery.
Japan's 0.5 percent economic expansion last quarter, the first in more than a year, was powered by exports. The build-up of bad loans has kept banks from lending money to new businesses, starving the economy of the fresh credit it needs to keep growing.

``Banks are acting as if they are insolvent,'' said Richard Jerram, chief economist at ING Baring Securities.

Black BladeWeek bodes well for the gold price #846449/9/02; 02:11:33


Johannesburg - The gold price may push higher this week as US President George W Bush rolls his war machines closer to Iraq. There are also fears that the country could suffer another terrorist attack on the anniversary of September 11. Also in gold's favour are good physical demand from Asia, the ruling out of gold sales by Germany, gold producers cutting their hedge books and the fall in Tokyo's Nikkei last week to its lowest level in 19 years.

Black Blade: All are obvious good reasons. Meanwhile spot is getting very frisky tonight.

BelgianArctifox #84622 / Waverider - GATA (Japan stock boost)#846459/9/02; 02:18:36

*** DEFICIT SPENDING ***, must be and already is !

Note the Norbert Walter (chief economist Deutsche Bank) connections to IMF / World Bank / ECB : INTERNATIONAL COORDINATION TO CORRECT CURRENT EXCHANGE RATES !!!!

Japan, *officially*, throwing confetti into the bottomless, Nikkei barril (save the banks)...and what more evidence do we need for having the biggest build up of future hyperinflation (or financial collapse).

All ESFs and any intervention are only to magnify, rapidly growing, economic/monetary, distortions and more and more and more...deficit spending. If a stock or bond or fiat-paper, anywhere in the world is absurdly overvalued as to keep things going...and the only thing that is obscenely, UNDERVALUED, is Gold...
How difficult is it to conclude that physical Gold *is* and always will be, an *INVESTMENT* ? Despite Sir J. Turk saying that Gold isn't an investment !

The "financial industry" + its media vazals are giving the general public, bloodtransfusion after bloodtransfusion.
A constant intravenious dripping of false hope and desperate arm twisting. Day after day, hour after hour.

Authoritive economists focus, again and again, on those "same" few instruments to curb and avoid, collapses, big or small. It just doesn't work anymore !

They (central bankers/politicians) all, stubbornly, refuse to inflate their way out, for the time being, knowing very well that hyperinflation is the irreversable, final phase of the great collapse.

Black BladeJapanese Government Intervention#846469/9/02; 02:29:39

This isn't really new. The Japanese government has been occasionally throwing taxpayer funds into the Nikkei for the last couple of years (at least). They have been doing the same in regard to the US dollar in the recent "currency wars". It is a failure and will continue to be a failure. Japanese banks are required by law to report the value of their stock holdings every quarter. It is no wonder then that due to the recent pullbacks in the value of the Nikkei that the government is throwing cash at the markets. They will likely face another run on the banks as we approach the next "April Fools Day Surprise". They are scared to death as they should be. The future of Japan is mirrored by recent events in Argentina. Total economic collapse in Japan may be inevitable at this point.

- Black Blade

BelgianOIL !#846479/9/02; 03:03:26

Saudi Arabia decided not to open its "richest" oil fields for concession to oil companies of the US and Euroland. The Saudi minister of foreign affairs let this know to a consortium led by Exxon Mobil and Shell. Insiders consider this as an act of INDEPENDANCE from the US. The consortium would be allowed to explore the less profitable oil fields.

The US$ is rising against the euro ! And POG up (323$)!!!!!!!!!!

SpartacusThe Japan Problem#846489/9/02; 03:30:10

Gabe Harris
The Japan Problem

---Of the actual income the Government has coming in from taxpayers(who are being counted on to pay off the mountains of debt being built up), 34% goes straight to the holders of the government issued debt! Hundreds of mainstream economists have been trying to figure out a way for the Japanese government to stop deflation and create some inflation. However, even if they do figure out how to do that, then how will the government be able to pay it's creditor's? If the interest rates on their debt rise by as little as 1% then the amount of money they would have to spend annually on "National Debt Service" could easily double or triple and consume over 100% of the tax revenues! This is because interest rates in the last couple years have been in the .25% range so any increase in rates would be devastating to their budget situation. If they can't create the inflation then they gradually crumble under the growing annual budget deficits being piled on on top of the other. Either way it appears to me that the smart Japanese citizens are going to be searching for someplace to keep their life savings besides in the government issued fiat currency. Historically, people have fled to gold when the politicians have lost control of the currency tried to manage. Who knows what will happen this time?

Last winter, when the government over there started making noise about reducing the amount of yen they would insure in citizen's bank accounts, it is widely reported that the gold buying in Japan increased significantly. Many people think this contributed largely to the $60 run up in gold over the past 2 years. If that is true then, after looking at there overall picture I think it could be a sign of things to come. Apparently the Moodys credit rating agency considers this a risk as they have recently moved Japan's debt to the same level as Botswana. Japan is the 2nd biggest economy in the world. I don't think many people take this very seriously. I can not figure out why. During the recent spring and summer months the BOJ and the US Gov have been intervening in the market to try and keep the value of the dollar from falling versus the Yen. This is truly bazarre, why does this not get more attention from the political and financial columnist. Our government, headed by what is supposed to be the "free-market" party is intervening in the world currency markets to try and boost its own ill managed currency against a countries currency whose government debt is rated lower than Botswana!! When stuff like that is happening, why aren't people even interested!?! ---

Black Blade"Entertaining" Day on Wall Street on tap#846499/9/02; 03:43:25

The US stock market index futures are sinking fast even while the US dollar is stronger. The dollar is stronger on dubious employment data. Meanwhile precious metals and petroleum is surging. Gold is higher by $2.50 and (spot) oil is up over $2/bbl. Also, notice that grains are rocketing higher as the most recent data suggests this years crop in the US is largely wiped out due to another year of severe drought (gee where's the plagues of locusts?). The worries are piling up on Wall Street as the markets will open late on Sept. 11th (supposedly for the memories). Also, bankruptcy consultants have been hired for UAL and an announcement of bankruptcy appears imminent. "Interesting Times"

- Black Blade

Black BladeEuro Markets Extend Damage#846509/9/02; 04:10:33

Euro markets are starting off negative this morning. Looks to get very ugly today.
krashBritish Energy gets a temporary infusion#846519/9/02; 04:40:49


09/09 06:11
British Energy Gets $639 Mln U.K. Loan; Shares Plunge (Update3)
By Elena Moya

London, Sept. 9 (Bloomberg) -- British Energy Plc shares plunged 84 percent after the government delivered a 410 million- pound ($639 million), three-week loan to help stave off bankruptcy at the U.K.'s largest nuclear power producer.

The stock, suspended on Thursday after the company said it was in talks with the government to avoid insolvency, fell as much as 67.75 pence to 13p and was down 64p as of 11:08 a.m. in London. It had been suspended at 80.75. The government said no commitments have been made about a more lasting solution.

The utility lost 527 million pounds in the year through March, as U.K. power prices slumped 25 percent after the government opened the market to competition. Because of falling power prices, more cash may not save British Energy, analysts said.

``A financial guarantee is not the solution, but really only a short-term measure,'' said Jens Jantzen, an analyst with Bear Stearns, in a research note. ``The group needs to shore up its U.K. operations by cutting expenses dramatically.''


Comment: Uneconomic nuclear energy continues to get government life support.....

Black BladeJapan plan to prop up stocks seen short-sighted #846529/9/02; 04:44:04


TOKYO, Sept 9 (Reuters) - Any government decision to use public funds to bolster Japan's ailing stock market could well boost shares in the short term, but it would damage the government's reform credentials in the long term, analysts said. A flood of conflicting statements by senior government officials on Monday suggested that the ruling coalition was far from agreement, but Japan seems to be considering using public funds to buy exchange-traded funds (ETFs) to prop up the market. Economics Minister Heizo Takenaka poured cold water on the idea of public pension funds being pushed into buying ETFs on Monday, suggesting instead that the Bank of Japan could buy them as part of its money market operations. Analysts say there are considerable hurdles to the proposed plan of using the BOJ to prop up the market. Analysts also said any gamble with taxpayers money -- whatever agency did the buying -- would lead to short-term gains in stocks but be outweighed by a loss of market faith in the government's reform credentials. Local media have said ruling coalition lawmakers wanted up to three trillion yen, or up to $25 billion, of public money to be used to buy ETFs. The plan is the latest in a series of measures to artificially prop up Japan's faltering stock market.

Black Blade: My sentiments exactly!!!!! It's a foolish plan that will backfire badly and the erosion of confidence in the Japanese economy will be irreparable. In other words – "Check Mate"! No wonder Japanese citizens are reported to be buying Gold bullion again. They see that it's the end game. Japan is falling just like Argentina.

misetichJapan plan to prop up stocks seen short-sighted#846539/9/02; 04:52:25


TOKYO, Sept 9 (Reuters) - Any government decision to use public funds to bolster Japan's ailing stock market could well boost shares in the short term, but it would damage the government's reform credentials in the long term, analysts said.

A flood of conflicting statements by senior government officials on Monday suggested that the ruling coalition was far from agreement, but Japan seems to be considering using public funds to buy exchange-traded funds (ETFs) to prop up the market.

ETFs, relatively new in Japan, are index-linked investment funds that are listed on a stock exchange and traded like ordinary shares. They give investors exposure to a stock index, or particular sectors such as technology or banks.

Economics Minister Heizo Takenaka poured cold water on the idea of public pension funds being pushed into buying ETFs on Monday, suggesting instead that the Bank of Japan could buy them as part of its money market operation
"In the long term it represents a very bad U-turn from the Koizumi government's move toward a more open market," said Garry Evans, HSBC's chief strategist.

"Eventually the government would have to sell these ETFs, possibly at a loss," he added.
he plan is the latest in a series of measures to artificially prop up Japan's faltering stock market.

In March, the government introduced strict controls on the short-selling of shares, blamed by some authorities for price declines. Under this practice, operators sell shares they do not own, hoping to buy them back at a profit when the price falls.

Banks and insurers want to set up ETFs before half-year book-closings on September 30, when they have to write their huge shareholdings into their accounts at current depressed prices.
n August the combined market capitalisation of the total 18 ETFs listed in Japan was just two trillion yen.

The proposals would gobble up more than that amount, meaning that realistically the government would have to talk banks and insurers into setting up more ETFs to meet demand, said Tetsuya Ishijima, senior investment strategist at Okasan Securities.

"I can't think of any banks that haven't already formed ETFs that would want to at current stock prices," Ishijima said, noting they would have to sell shares to the funds at a loss, which they would have to account for.
"This is just the latest in a string of patchwork PKOs (price-keeping operations) to shore up the market without addressing any of the fundamental problems in the Japanese economy," said Ishijima. ($1=118.52 yen)

A crisis is inevitable.

Got gold?

misetichFrench Leader Offers Formula to Tackle Iraq#846549/9/02; 05:09:46


In the interview, Mr. Chirac proposed a Security Council resolution that would give Iraq a three-week deadline for admitting United Nations weapons inspectors "without restrictions or preconditions." If Mr. Hussein rejected their return or hampered their work, he said, a second resolution should be passed on whether to use military force.

The president said France would work on drafting this second resolution and the ultimate French stance would depend on the wording.

Mr. Chirac did not commit France to providing combat troops.

President Chirac described the Bush administration doctrine of pre-emptive military action in its fight against terrorism as "extraordinarily dangerous."

He said, "As soon as one nation claims the right to take preventive action, other countries will naturally do the same." He asked, "What would you say in the entirely hypothetical event that China wanted to take pre-emptive action against Taiwan, saying that Taiwan was a threat to it? How would the Americans, the Europeans and others react? Or what if India decided to take preventive action against Pakistan, or vice versa?"
"What Mr. Cheney says does not interest me," Mr. Chirac said. "What interests me is what Mr. Bush says. Because I hear Mr. Cheney saying one thing; I hear Mr. Powell saying another."
"I am totally against unilateralism in the modern world," he said.
"Nothing is impossible, if it is decided by the international community on the basis of indisputable proof" of the existence of weapons of mass destruction. But, he added, "For the moment, we have neither proof nor decisions."
"When the chips are down, the French and Americans have always stood together and have never failed to be there for one another."

But he stressed that France would never be a lackey of the United States. "In life, you know, one must not confuse friends with sycophants," he said. "It's better to have only a few friends than to have a lot of sycophants. And I'm telling you that France considers itself one of the friends of the Americans, not necessarily one of its sycophants. And when we have something to say, we say it."

Iraq - catalyst to gold being freed from its schackles?

Got gold?

misetichShort of Cash, Media Giants Are Selling Assets#846559/9/02; 05:16:58


There is a sale on in the media business but hardly anyone is buying.

A 20-year acquisition spree that turned the major communications companies into behemoths is shifting into reverse as many of them find themselves short of cash and looking to sell, leaving few to bid.
Although many industries regularly experience cycles of overextension and contraction, investment bankers and analysts said that the media industry's current pinch was exceptional, in part because of the magnitude of the previous boom. "More than any time in recent memory, there is a greater supply than demand of, in some cases, real trophy media assets," said Jonathan A. Knee, managing director and co-head of the media group at Morgan Stanley.
Media giants, telecoms, airline, PC etc etc industries - greater supply than demnad
The economic downturn is more severe than being admitted by politicos and stock markets

Got gold?

misetichResearcher Cuts Sales Forecast for Computers Through 2003#846569/9/02; 05:23:21


SAN FRANCISCO, Sept. 8 — Citing growing fears of the effect of a prolonged economic malaise, the market research firm International Data Corporation is scaling back its forecast on global personal computer sales.

In a report to be issued today, the firm's researchers said they were lowering PC market forecasts for both 2002 and 2003 to reflect weakening demand among businesses and consumers.
Researcher Cuts Sales Forecast for Computers Through 2003


AN FRANCISCO, Sept. 8 — Citing growing fears of the effect of a prolonged economic malaise, the market research firm International Data Corporation is scaling back its forecast on global personal computer sales.

In a report to be issued today, the firm's researchers said they were lowering PC market forecasts for both 2002 and 2003 to reflect weakening demand among businesses and consumers.

Total worldwide PC shipments are now expected to reach only 135.5 million in 2002, an increase of 1.1 percent, and to grow 8.4 percent in 2003.

In June, International Data forecast growth of 4.7 percent in 2002 and 11.1 percent in 2003.

"On the consumer side in the United States, people are spending their disposable income on cars," said Roger Kay, director of client computing at the firm. In the corporate market, the industry reached saturation several years ago, he said. As capital spending sags, new computers are easy to forgo.

From industry to industry - continent to continent - most investors are underestimating the poor present/future global economic conditions

Got gold?

Henrikrash- Uneconomic? Nuclear?#846579/9/02; 05:34:27

Self renewing nuclear energy initially had extra surcharges added to it to make coal and oil competitive. It was "too cheap to meter"...regulatory costs for licensing and siting hearings downtime for needed safety upgrades and future decommissioning funds all helped in this effort. The coal miners would have been run out of business. Lawyers for environmental litigants also added to costs.

Take your average nuclear plant which generates on the average of a million US dollars a day in power and calculate in a conservative 60% capaity factor and you will notice that the facilities generally have paid themselves off in short order. Even new plants at an inflated cost of 1 billion each can recover their cost of construction in 5 years. If they run for an average of 30 years, one wonders what happens to all that extra money.

Are the British Energy Nuclear ops uneconomic, or did they overfeed at the trough at expense of rate payers under a rate controlled (read gov. subsidy) power generation structure? Probably eight layers of middle management and fat salaries and benefits for executives. If they go under, it will be to shed these looters. Its not because nuclear is un-economical.

TopazBelgian#846589/9/02; 05:39:40

There appears to be something missing in the sorry state of Mid-east posturing - "we'll provide proof in a couple of week's" etc.
My mind meanders back several month's when the Saudi Crown Prince met with GWB - at the conclusion thereof the latter was visibly recall?
Perhaps we ARE at the alienated Saudi Arabia...whoops! - there goes the Applecart!

A woman of highly admirable qualities is moving on to greener pastures, I'm referring to UN Human Rights Commissioner Mary Robinson. (link above) Now she WILL be missed....

SpartacusRussian oil for America#846599/9/02; 06:21:58

---A year after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks redefined U.S.-Russian relations, George W. Bush and Vladimir Putin are working to turn their new friendship into a tangible new partnership between the world's largest energy consumer and the steward of one of the world's largest energy reserves. Ignoring skeptics, the two presidents signed an energy cooperation agreement at their May summit meeting in Moscow, and the plan to convene a two-day oil and gas conference in Houston on Oct. 1.

If they succeed, the partnership could be among the most far-reaching changes to the international order in the aftermath of Sept. 11. ---

JCTexNice jump, Spot#846609/9/02; 07:30:13

Boys & girls, be sure and put your coffee cups down before looking at the Kitco chart.
krashHenri - Nuclear power too cheap to meter?#846619/9/02; 07:31:56

krash komment: Really, let's be serious here...rather than being too cheap to meter, nuclear power is one massive government subsidy and bailout program from start to finish. British Energy clearly shows this, where it is failing in the marketplace -- British Energy is failing financially in the most modern and advanced power market in the world, Britain's NETA. This could affect British Energy's nuclear operations in the U.S. and Canada. If the U.S. was to adopt to adopt NETA's advanced features (commodity trading of electricity, no marginal cost awards) nuclear power would fail in the U.S. as well. Yet GWB's energy policy props up the nukes and coal stations as well....
BlackjackJPM might cut dividend?#846629/9/02; 08:49:29

On CNBC there was a discussion a few minutes ago that
JPM might have to cut their dividend. JPM at around 22.4
right now. Not looking good for the king of derivatives.

ArcticfoxCNBC just made reference to James Turk interview with Barron's over Au outlook..#846639/9/02; 09:00:14

Did anyone read this interview?
Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #846649/9/02; 09:02:52

UPDATE #10 (as of Monday at 0900 Denver time 9/9/02)
FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7
Progress on GCZ2 --09/09/02 at 10:24
$325.5 $322.4 $323.8 Change + $2.3
Listed in descending order of Price.

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)
$$$$ 323.6 $$$$ Yukon (09/08/02; 22:57:32MT - msg#: 84636)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
WOWSERS -- Lots of ACTION in the Gold Futures PITS !

Blackjack; 09:09:05

JPM talking gloom

NEW YORK -- Shares of Wall Street firm J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. traded lower earlier Monday amid increasing concerns that the firm will have to cut its dividend.

In two separate notes Monday, analysts said the continuation of tough conditions in the capital markets made the cuts a distinct possibility.

ADVERTISEMENTJudah Kraushaar, an analyst at Merrill Lynch who downgraded J.P. Morgan to " neutral" from "buy," took cues from a recent speech by J.P. Morgan Chief Executive Bill Harrison during Merrill's investor conference.

During his address, Mr. Harrison said corporate credit problems have been bad enough to lower the outlook for second-half credit costs and also said the third quarter is shaping up badly for the investment bank.

Given the poor conditions, the CEO implied J.P. Morgan might "reevaluate its dividend rate," Mr. Kraushaar said in a note.
Looking bad for JPM

sectorCitigroup Shifts Management #846669/9/02; 09:15:34

Investment Unit Shake-Up Comes Amid Probes, Falling Stock
By Ben White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 9, 2002; Page A04

NEW YORK, Sept. 8 -- Facing multiple investigations and a tumbling stock price, Citigroup Inc. today replaced the head of its global corporate and investment bank, tapping chief operating officer Charles Prince to take over for Michael Carpenter, who will move to a lower-profile position.

The announcement follows a drop in Citigroup's stock price from a 12-month high of $52.20 to $30.28 as of Friday. It also comes as state, federal and industry investigators probe how the company's brokerage and investment banking unit, Salomon Smith Barney Inc., operated during the late-1990s boom in technology and telecommunications stocks.

Citigroup has been in talks with the Federal Trade Commission to settle a probe into alleged predatory lending practices. Investigators also have been looking into loans the bank made to Enron Corp.

In an interview today, Citigroup chief executive Sanford I. Weill acknowledged the toll the probes have taken on his firm. "The investigations have had a very big impact on the morale of our 270,000 workers and on our shareholders and I think that it is incredibly important that we understand all the issues and become a leader in making changes," he said.

When Citi Bank and JPM fail as a result of Enron litigation and gold/interest rate/oil derivatives, the Fed fails and with it the FDIC and later…America.

We focus on the public gold derivatives but there are massive crude oil derivatives too...they aren't disclosed within the "Other commodities" category at the OCC. To be logical, one must assume that the purpose of JPM's massive petroleum derivatives is to try to suppress the price of oil.

Therefore we can be safe in assuming that their derivative book is under stress from oil as it pushes $30 and threatens to move higher. Under this scenario, the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is not being stocked for war purposes but to deliver into short crude positions taken by bullion banks.

This is how far the banks have perverted America.

Chris PowellText of Barron's interview with James Turk#846679/9/02; 09:24:18

Barron's interviews GATA consultant James Turk
about gold and mentions the ESF's intervention
against the gold price:

To subscribe to GATA's dispatches
by email and get them immediately so
you don't have to go look for them,
send an email to:

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

BlackjackCRB index continues to rocket#846689/9/02; 09:25:36

Amazing chart.
sectorColorful Headlines from Israel's "Drudge/Moussad Report"#846699/9/02; 09:47:44

Oh...Yeah...The US can invoke Massive Retaliation Policy! Whooda Thought?

Monday, September 9, 2002

Palestinian Chemical Warfare Attack
Uncovered and Foiled
Three Jerusalem Palestinians Indicted Monday for
Plot to Poison Food at Big Downtown Jerusalem
Café Rimon for Hamas
They Prepared Delaxine to Induce Cardiac Arrest

US VP Cheney: We Have Warned Iraq Ruler
His Country Faces Annihilation if He Deploys
Weapon of Mass Destruction

What did the US gain by waiting until this late date to remind our enemies that we will "Annihilate" them with retaliation in kind?

kasperjackO Tocomio#846709/9/02; 09:50:55

oster dow jones

Last Friday a whopping 121,887 gold contracts - equivalent to 121.9 tons - were traded on Tocom,
more than twice the number traded on Thursday and well above the daily average for August of
65,762 contracts.

However, volume Monday fell back to 58,326 contracts.

KnallgoldOil similar to Gold?#846719/9/02; 09:54:57

sector wrote: "To be logical, one must assume that the purpose of JPM's massive petroleum derivatives is to try to suppress the price of oil."

The big question is,do the Saudis know it? Or,in the context of Gold for oil (Another) deals,do they care? (Assuming they get a certain amount of physical Gold per barrel of oil).

What if now both "commodities" trade at fake prices on the "officially free markets" and the real deals are offbook?Paper prices would just mean nothing anymore-how do we liliputs then guess what the approx. value of those Golds is? 144$/barrel? 30'000$ /oz?

kasperjackJPM Neutered#846729/9/02; 10:38:55

NEW YORK, Sept 9 (Reuters) - Merrill Lynch on Monday lowered its investment
rating on shares of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. Inc. (NYSE:JPM - News) to "neutral"
from "buy," citing lower earnings estimates and a possible dividend cut.
$20 per share is JPM's alleged implosion point.

PippinKasperjack - JPM #846739/9/02; 10:45:41

<<$20 per share is JPM's alleged implosion point.>>

Could you please elaborate ? Why an "implosion point" in the first place, why for JPM, and why $20 particularly ?
This is not the first time I "hear" that JPM's shares' price plays a role in a certain calculation, and I would like to know more about it.
Many thanks.

kasperjack; 11:15:40

Asian central banks' gold holdings in absolute amount will
increase even as
Asian central banks maintain a fixed percentage of gold in
according to Tan Khee Giap, an associate professor with
Nanyang Technological University.
The Russian central Bank is already buying up a 10% equivalent of the WA allotment. Now the Asian Central Banks appear to be hopping on the gold buying bandwagon. A growing proportion of the physical gold the Europeans are contributing to the supply is being spoken for by other central banks. Is it politically feasible for the Europeans to offload even more gold under the auspices of the WA. Can they afford to indefinitely transfer their golden legacies into virtually worthless paper fiat. And where is the Feds allotment of physical gold for sale? Won't they be called on to supplement the Europeans efforts? Aren't they coordinating their strategy with the Europeans:for the common weil? Maybe the Feds already have the bulk of their gold in deep storage huh? Buried real deep to preserve the golden legacy of America huh? .P.S. The alleged JPM $20 implosion point has been extensively covered on this message board and many others for that matter. I would start my research by tracking down some of sinclairs articles....

krashBush saber-rattling boosts gold - Calandra#846759/9/02; 11:26:51


Bush saber-rattling boosts gold
Drums beating for test of $330 an ounce

By Thom Calandra,
Last Update: 11:43 AM ET Sept. 9, 2002

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) -- Gold's rise above $320 an ounce Monday has the drums beating for a swift autumn rally in the metal's price.

Gold and gold mining shares are up sharply in the run-up to the Sept. 11 anniversary.

On Monday morning gold rose to $323 an ounce in the spot market, not far from the $329.30 reached May 31. The metal disappointed gold newsletter editors during the summer, when both gold and the stock market lost ground.

Now, investors say global events - and not just a faltering American stock market -- will boost bullion prices.

"The gold market is now apparently disregarding stocks to some extent and -- with the drums of war beating more feverishly and the 9/11 anniversary racing toward us -- is beginning to give greater weight to geopolitical risks," says Brien Lundin, editor of the 31-year-old Gold Newsletter.

Lundin, who each year stages the New Orleans Investment Conference in November, says the metal's big test will be $325 and ultimately, $330 an ounce, a level not seen since October 1999. "We'll see over the coming sessions whether this latest show of muscle from gold has the necessary sustaining power," he says.

Observers nearly all point to $325 an ounce as a kind of test for the metal, which along with government bonds are this year's biggest-gaining investment class.

"I'm still looking for a probe of and then a break above $325 this month or next," says James Turk, a longtime newsletter editor and founder of payment system "That will mark the clear beginning of gold's bull market." Turk's six-month target, once gold hurdles $325 an ounce, is above $400.

President Bush on Monday was trying to persuade Canada to join the White House war on Iraq and its leader, long-reigning Saddam Hussein.

John Doody, of the revered newsletter Gold Stock Analyst, has just completed a study of gold during the Gulf War. Gold staged its biggest gains -- about $68 an ounce from the lows, or 20 percent -- in the weeks just before Aug. 2, 1990, when Iraq invaded Kuwait, and in the three following weeks.

"The gold price was in a decline the first half of 1990 despite Saddam's increasing threats against Israel, including use of chemical weapons," Doody notes. "By mid-June, Iraqi troops were being gathered on the Iraq/Kuwait border and Saddam's possible sinister intentions drove gold higher. The price spiked $10 an ounce (higher) on Aug. 2 as Iraq invaded, and gold hit $414 an ounce three weeks later."

Doody said he expects a similar price gain "as tensions heat up, but this time the fear will not be of Saddam's army, but his possible early use of chemical weapons."

Not everyone is tying gold's future gains to the Middle East. James Grant, of Grant's Interest Rate Observer, says gold almost certainly will gain as investors lose faith in Fed chief Alan Greenspan and the central banker's waning abilities to inflate the economy.

"Gold eventually will trade as a Greenspan reciprocal," Grant said. "What is bad for Greenspan is good for gold." Grant, who will be speaking at the New York gold show later this month, says the investing public is steadily losing its faith in the Fed's management of interest rates. In turn, the dollar will lose face among international investors.

"Greenspan is hugely overbought, to use a stock market term," Grant told me. "He is bound to enter a personal correction, and when he does people will stop holding the extra dollar." Gold prices tend to strengthen as investors abandon the dollar and dollar-linked securities.

Mike Darda, an economist at think tank Polyconomics Inc., notes the Fed's expansion of money supply could weaken an already tottering dollar. Darda says the Fed is expanding its balance sheet at an annual rate of 7.5 percent - by buying Treasury securities with newly minted dollar bills.

krash komment: It seems ironic that Bush's proposed war on Iraq, designed among other things to support the US$, is actually helping to appreciate POG.......

Hipplebeck$$$$332.5$$$$#846769/9/02; 11:52:25

Gold is money. Fiat is pretend money. When the perception of pretend money changes from "good as gold" to worthless paper, gold's true value is exposed. Then paper tries to adjust in value to gold instead of the other way around.
Inflation. Period.

USAGOLD / Centennial Precious Metals, Inc."Angels for hire" -- professional help for portfolio protection#846779/9/02; 12:16:29


Gold Today!

Because you never know what tomorrow will bring.

sectorCitigroup admits 'inappropriate behaviour'#846799/9/02; 12:54:48


By Gary Silverman in New York
Published: September 6 2002 20:22 | Last Updated: September 6 2002 20:22

Sandy Weill, Citigroup's chairman and chief executive, told investors on Friday that his company engaged in inappropriate behaviour during the bull market and would have to make amends to regain public confidence.

Mr Weill said he knew of no instance when Citigroup or its employees broke the law but his acknowledgement of error at a public forum underscored the crisis facing his company.

Citigroup has lost more than one-third of its market value this year as government agencies have examined its role in the collapses of Enron and WorldCom, its equity research practices and its highly profitable consumer finance operations.

Speaking at a Merrill Lynch conference, Mr Weill tried to link Citigroup's current travails to the fall-out from the great bull market that he dated from 1982 to 2000.

A particular problem, he said, was the "incredible bubble in the internet sector" and the destabilising impact that had on high-technology and telecommunications, the latter an area of particular focus for Citigroup's Salomon Smith Barney unit.

"We are now paying the price," Mr Weill said. "As we look back, certain of the actions that we did during the period look to be inappropriate."

Mr Weill said that Citigroup would have to respond - "to make things simple," as he put it - and reviewed a list of previously announced corporate changes, including what could be a drastic reduction in its structured finance activities.

He also said Citigroup was nearing an agreement with the Federal Trade Commission over predatory lending allegations.

The development was first reported by the Wall Street Journal, which said Citigroup could pay $200m in damages.

The FTC matter involved practices at Associates First Capital before it was bought by Citigroup in 2000. However, some community activists have said Citigroup's consumer finance businesses still take advantage of the poor.

Mr Weill told investors he remains confident in Citigroup's model, which combines retail and wholesale financial services, in spite of the low market valuation it commands.

However, Todd Thomson, chief financial officer, suggested Citigroup was open to revisions, noting that the company had been aggressive in selling lacklustre businesses.

"We are here for the long run," Mr Weill said. "We are not chicken."

Would you like fries with your "Chicken"?

Mr GreshamHipplebeck#846809/9/02; 12:56:01

"Gold is money. Fiat is pretend money."

Well said. The first thing that occurred to me to follow that with is:

"And, since one of the qualities of money is Scarcity, we'll pretend, for now, that we're going to keep our fiat scarce. And, even though you know intuitively of this Scarcity requirement, no one has ever -- outside of you reading the Constitution, that is -- told you this directly, at any point in the 'education' process.

"Therefore, we will call upon you, as loyal subjects and children of the Great White Father in Washington, to forget about this requirement, while we go about fattening every political freeloader and padding every expense account and painting (twice over) every 50-year-old battleship we can find.

"For which we will 'print' as much fiat as we want, when we want, and change the friggin' colors whenever we like, no matter who gets left holding. OK? Got it? OK. Now get back to work."

The bigger the con, the harder it is for ordinary (simple, honest, common sense) people to believe it is happening to them. Until one morning, the carnival snake oil salesman has folded his tent and slipped his wagon out of town before dawn, leaving us scratchin' our heads in wonderment.

Happens that way every time. Just a quaint part of American folk history, only bigger this time...

Paper AvalancheConsequences be damned....#846829/9/02; 14:02:03

The trip through never-never land continues for joe six pack.


R PowellKasperjack#846839/9/02; 14:15:04

Tocom //CRB

Thanks for the report of 121,887 contracts traded on Tocom last Friday.

One question please, is their contract size the same as that of Comex (100 ounces)??
Wheat is flying (can corn not follow?) as is everything on the CRB except cotton and lumber. The CRB index is up about 15% in just the last month or so. *** But don't worry, we've been through bad times before. Just take a deep breath, close your eyes and repeat 489 times every morning, "There is no inflation ... there is no inflation... there is no inflation...

How are they going to hold gold and silver down now?? They're already way behind but may move faster to catch up? I certainly hope so!

Paper AvalancheDouble daily volume on JPM today#8468409/09/02; 14:48:47

Something tells me that it was one tough juggling act today.


WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8468509/09/02; 14:52:51

Best Gold report on the web...not to be missed!
Paper AvalancheGreetings Rich!#8468609/09/02; 14:55:08

I apologize for not replying to your post yesterday. I just got back in town from visiting the in-laws (fun) and had to tend to many a task upon my return.

I agree completely that we will see $100/oz. silver in the next few years. I hope alot sooner than later. I read Butler's piece about the little guy getting in on the action. I beleive that this is the precursor to joe six pack getting a whif of opportunity in the silver market. My analysis late Saturday evening was with respect to where I think Ag will be on 12/31/02. I would be happy to see it at $13 then. We will have to pass every point between $4.55 and $100 sometime. I just took a wild guess that we might end the year at that point in the continuum.

Take care.


kasperjackRich Powell re Tocom contracts#8468709/09/02; 15:18:08

I don't trade em or any futures whatsoever but 121 tons is in the neigbourhood of 25% of the tonnage one might expect. I posted the original source for the quote.
kasperjackShorts Play Sept 11 Card#8468809/09/02; 15:52:20

Linked in my last post

"I have heard talk that some U.S. traders are going to refrain from active
trading this week to pay
homage to the Sept. 11 victims. Even if a gold-friendly event does occur,
such as another terrorist
attack, it might not lead to a big move for gold as a lot of people in the
investment community won't
want to be seen as trying to exploit the situation to make money," said this
trader. -dow jones newswire
Do ya think them gold trading sharks might tip of Martha though?

BoilermakerIraq attack#8468909/09/02; 16:33:10


In the interview, Mr. Chirac proposed a Security Council resolution that would give Iraq a three-week deadline for admitting United Nations weapons inspectors "without restrictions or preconditions." If Mr. Hussein rejected their return or hampered their work, he said, a second resolution should be passed on whether to use military force.

When I saw the post by misetich of the NYT's article above it immediately occurred to me that it's likely that GWB's unilateral attack of Iraq noise has been floated to generate a more moderate response plan from critical European allies. Sort of like you're saying to an enemy "I'm going to kill you" and waiting for your friends to intervene with a more rational plan. Chirac has posed a sensible plan and now the ball is in GWB's court. He should make very specific inspection demands, ie., 44,000 inspectors with free access to any and all destinations in Iraq. I hope that's the next step. If Saddam refuses this kind of option then GWB's "kill the bastard" gains credibility.

Golden BearBill Fleckenstein on Market bottoms and Gold...#8469009/09/02; 16:33:22


"....Waiting for Mr. (Right) Market
In all likelihood, we are going to enter a period where the market swings in a wide range for maybe five or 10 years. It will be possible to make money in that environment. It may be that many purchases will need to be sold after six months or two years, rather than being held for several years. However, I believe it is still too soon to get started, because the idea of trying to get involved on the long side remains way too popular, and prices continue to be far too high in the aggregate.

That is not to say there aren't pockets of cheap securities around. I'm sure there are. But I think the risk/reward ratio is not attractive enough to merit much work on the subject. So, for those of you who keep asking me to come up with an idea, if I found something to buy, I would mention it, just as I have in the past. But this is not something you can make up. It's very important for people to be willing to wait until they get just the right pitch. What counts is not merely being in the market, but knowing that when you make investments, you are dealing with good ideas and attractive risk/reward characteristics.

Finally, I might also cite the gold market as an example of how a bottoming process works. In a bear market for two decades, it appears that gold made its final low at around $250 or $260 about a year ago, and it's kind of grudgingly moved back to around $315. I think gold is in the early stages of a bull market. Now, gold is a commodity (although it's also money), and not as well-followed as the stock market, so the bottoming process might be slightly different.

But I believe the psychology surrounding the gold market is quite instructive for bottoms at large. A couple of years ago, if you admitted to being bullish on gold, people would have looked at you as though they pitied you for being so dimwitted. In my opinion, that is the degree of disaffection we've got to see before it's safe to return to the U.S. equity market in any kind of moderately aggressive fashion...."

Golden Bear...and trashes Maestro Al.... too good to miss...#8469109/09/02; 16:48:42

"....Longing for laryngitis
Now, with thoughts of disaffection fresh in mind, what better time for me to issue an official announcement: After this week's edition, I am going to stop talking about our Fed chairman. With the release of his pathetic little speech at the recent Fed shrimp fest in Jackson Hole, Wyo. -- and with the public at last understanding the true measure of the man -- Alan Greenspan is finally yesterday's news, and in my opinion, no longer relevant. But first, there is the business of his jaw- flapping to get out of the way, which I'm sure you're all familiar with by now. The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times did an incredibly lame job of reprising his ramble. I did read several good analyses online, not the least of which was presented last week by Peter Eavis of In any case, rather than fully immersing myself in the speech's hopelessly whiny babble, I'd just like to comment on what it was about, and then offer some thoughts on two related stories that appeared recently in the aforementioned dailies.

For many years, I have publicly labeled Alan Greenspan the most incompetent and irresponsible Fed chairman in history. While that assessment sounded very outlandish four or five years ago, I think fewer people would quarrel with it today. In my opinion, he is now feeling the heat for the bubble, and he thinks rhetoric will deflect attention from his central role in its creation. He basically said that the Fed didn't cause the bubble, and it didn't cause the bust. He is actually right about one thing: The Fed did not cause the bust with its minuscule rate hikes (and let's not confuse rate hikes with real tightening, i.e., restricting monetary growth, which is a subject for another day). But the Fed most certainly created the bubble, and by definition, the bust that was destined to follow.

Turning to a recent Wall Street Journal story, "Fed couldn't prevent bubble," there was one fine quote from Yutaka Yamaguchi, deputy governor for the Bank of Japan (though he is also mistaken in thinking that a central bank couldn't have prevented a bubble). He said, "Could aggressive easing have significantly moderated the fall of real-estate prices and therefore the balance-sheet problem? I am skeptical. We have witnessed time and again that after an asset inflation has developed into a major bubble, it is impossible to soft-land that market." This is precisely the point I made recently in my daily column.

Another striking quote in the story comes from former Treasury Secretary Larry Summers: "History is sobering on bubble aftermaths. (Funny, up until today, I never saw the Journal use the phrase "bubble aftermath.") It often records false dawns when people thought the worst was past, and turned out to be wrong." Now, doesn't that sound familiar? It's what has happened repeatedly since March of 2000. In any case, after reprising those two noteworthy comments, the Journal goes on to claim that Greenspan's speech was a rebuttal to critics who have argued that the Fed could have prevented much of the recent carnage in the economy and the market. No, it's not a rebuttal. It's an attempt at one, and a rather pathetic and cowardly one, at that.

Wheezy Al shuns musty tomes
Probably one of the most objectionable lines in a speech already riddled with objectionable comments was the following: "We were confronted with forces that none of us had personally experienced. Aside from the then-recent experience of Japan, only history books and musty archives gave us clues to the appropriate stance for policy."

Well, I would submit that needing "musty" history books to help solve a problem does not absolve one for not recognizing a bubble. That is precisely what those of us who recognized the bubble relied on to guide us through the period.

Meanwhile, as many of us were able to recognize the bubble -- because it was so obvious -- the chairman of our nation's central bank is now on record as asking us to believe that so long as he has not personally experienced a bubble, he may be excused from not recognizing it. Of course, he not only didn't recognize the bubble, he grabbed the pom-poms and microphone, and cheered about productivity at every possible chance, as well as the glories of the Internet.

In any event, Greenspan's inability to learn from history also surfaces in his disregard for the historical value of Fed minutes. Though not really reprised in the Journal story, his speech contains one boldfaced lie. To paraphrase, he said that the Fed had no tools to dampen the speculation of the bubble, short of fostering a serious economic setback. In the speech, he said, "It seems reasonable to generalize from our recent experience that no low-risk, low-cost incremental monetary tightening exists that can reliably deflate a bubble. But is there some policy that can at least limit the size of a bubble, and hence the destructive fallout? From the evidence to date, the answer appears to be no." This completely and totally contradicts the minutes of the Fed meeting in the fall of 1996 (released this past year), in which they admitted that raising margin requirements certainly would have popped the bubble, but they were afraid of what other damage might have been done.

The minutes recorded Greenspan's comments as follows: "I recognize that there is a stock market bubble problem at this point. . . . We do have the possibility of raising major concerns by increasing margin requirements. I guarantee that if you want to get rid of the bubble, whatever it is, that will do it. My concern is that I'm not sure what else it will do." I would argue that most people would rather have experienced a little economic turmoil back in 1997, 1998 or 1999 -- via the Fed doing the right thing -- than be subjected to the current, greater misallocation of capital and destruction due to Fed cheerleading and issuing what the market believed to be a put.

In the misallocation-of-capital department, those of you who would like to believe that Al has correctly pronounced the housing bubble to be nonexistent, please raise your hand, and please be assured that you have answered incorrectly. His assessment is going to be wrong, just as he has been wrong about virtually everything he's said or decided in his professional career. I point this out, once again, so that people don't suck in and believe what the Fed tells them, and so that they can think for themselves and be prepared. This is not to say that everyone should go out and sell their houses and rent. But I think that people would be wise to figure out ways to pay down their debt, rather than take out a home-mortgage loan and get more levered up, because housing prices are the next bubble to deflate.

Untenably lame
Now on to The New York Times for a look at a recent story titled "Policy makers hone debate: When to hold, when to fold." In the course of this news analysis, the paper ran another totally disingenuous follow-up comment by Laurence Meyer: "There was a sense of frustration that we couldn't deal better with the asset price bubble. (You see, now he too is admitting that they knew there was a bubble.) But I don't think anybody has come up with a strategy that people feel would have gotten the job done." And he goes on to lash out at his critics, who think that the Fed should have tightened monetary policy. "That's a politically untenable situation for a central bank to be in." (He is referring to the wealth loss that would occur.)

So, the former Fed head is also now acknowledging that there was a bubble. This is yet another example of how cowardly the Fed is (and yet one more example of the Queen's misallocation of knighthood). It is supposed to be their job to lean against the wind, not to pour gasoline on a lit fire. They crowed that CPI inflation was under control, so they felt no need to tighten, which is why you can only have an asset-price inflation when CPI inflation is more or less under control. (Of course, this time, it was even more under control because of the hedonic pricing that made it seem even lower than it was, but that's another subject for another day.)

So, that about sums up what I have to say about this miserable, whiny speech by Greenspan on behalf of the Fed. I would just like to emphasize that his admission of the bubble should mark the start of the process that ends in his being completely discredited. Yes, before this is all through, people will see that their apparent maestro is, in fact, the most incompetent and irresponsible Fed chairman in history. And sadly, lots of them will pay for his experiments and subsequent mistakes...."

Golden BearHedge fund buying Gold,....just posted on another forum#8469209/09/02; 18:00:07

Squeeze on Gold?
NEW 9/9/2002 6:40:47 PM

From LeMetropole Cafe tonight:

"The most promising tidbit of the day was that a floor clerk told a Café source that he is hearing that "Chase" is massively short gold and will have to cover if gold goes $330 bid. Now, that is something that we have known for eons, but to hear the floor talking like this. Yum Yum!"

RE: And......
NEW 9/9/2002 6:43:53 PM

Same source:

"My source contacted me on Saturday again and passed on an update. I can't go into some of the details (like last Monday), but I can pass on the gist of the contents. This hedge fund group were the buyers that took out $315 and are continuing to buy at key technical levels. In addition to looking for $385 gold by the end of the September, they believe gold will trade $500 by the end of THIS year. This group believes that the U.S. will go to war with Iraq, sooner rather than later. They are also VERY bullish on the Swiss Franc and are looking for a collapse of a major bank in the U.S."

slingshotSiege Engine#8469309/09/02; 18:32:23

Gold above $300.00

The servants came and set before them all a fine meal. Venison with many different vegetables.Bread,pastries , fruit and a wine made from dandelions. The conversation around the table centered about Gandalfs adventures and how the Valley of Clouds mystic appearance came to be. Yes, Gandalf and his present company had shared many simular difficulties and Stephen the Great and Gandalf laughed together at their lifes funny quirks.
When they finished their meal Stephen and Gandalf remained seated as the others left the table and room. When they were alone Stephen the Great said to Gandalf.

Gandalf, your quest is our quest and it is by fate that we meet. Please do not let the appearance of my people give you worry for they are faithful followers. I wish to show you something to ease your fears. Please follow me. The two men got up from the table and passed through an arch. Walking side by side down a long corridor to and guarded vault. As they approach the guards opened the heavey doors and what Gandalf saw was beyond belief. They walked inside the room that gave off a glow and what laid before them, one only dreams of in life.

Gold. Thousands of bars of Gold neatly stacked. Gandalf could hardly believe his eyes.

Yes Gandalf,the story is true and you are the first outsider see to fortune that is to save the unaware.

Gandalf asked Stephen the Great, From whence does these riches come from?

From within our mountain as we made our home. The King with No Name has no knowledge of this bounty. We hope to use it to save the people of ths land, Said Stephen the Great.

Meanwhile Lady Waverider presented her plan to the council. They agreed they would use the carts of the Lord of the Castle to create an extravaganza never seen before.Jugglers,Plays and accrobats, all from the army of Goldbugs. They would enter the castle of no other than the King with No Name. Like the Trojan Horse conceal themselves and their weapons within the wagons and carts.
Bringing plenty of wine and food to put their enemy at ease.
Most of all, three beautiful women would perform a dance.
Ladies Waverider,Leigh and Siochaina would cast a spell even the Titians could not escape in performing the Dance of the Veils.
Could the guards at the gate resist the temptation of a goblet of wine from a beautiful women?

WaveriderSlingshot#8469409/09/02; 20:41:00

A pleasure to read my friend, particularly after a stressful day! Ahh....the plan unfolds...more to come...
Sierra MadreSlingshot: TPTB....#8469509/09/02; 20:49:40

strive to make gold as obsolete and useless as kings are today.

And yet, and yet, the human spirit still responds to tales of kings and of gold; both incorporate spiritual realities that will never be obsolete.

I am a monarchist at heart. Democracy is "titanic" in nature, as harnessing or being harnessed by powers stemming from the material side of manifestation: revealed by the importance it grants to sheer numbers in the process of "voting" which is today enshrined in the deception of the masses (more numbers of units).

The King sleeps, one day he will wake.


Gandalf the WhiteWOWSERS -- Sir Slingshot !#8469609/09/02; 21:03:37

THE VAULT ! A good place for the Wiz to try and figure out where you and Waverider are going with this SERIAL ! (Still having the dream about those Veils.)

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8469709/09/02; 21:08:17

UPDATE #11 (as of Monday at 2105 Denver time 9/9/02)

FYI ------HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7
9/9/02 $325.5 $322.4 $322.8s Change + $1.3

Listed in descending order of Price.

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.5 $$$$ Hipplebeck (9/9/02; 11:52:25MT - msg#: 84676)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)
$$$$ 323.6 $$$$ Yukon (09/08/02; 22:57:32MT - msg#: 84636)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).

Black BladeMutual funds dying off at record rate#8469809/09/02; 21:38:05


A record number of mutual funds are headed in a new direction: oblivion.

Since the bear market began in March 2000, 414 stock mutual funds have been liquidated, says Morningstar, the mutual fund tracker. That's half the liquidations in its database, which stretches back dozens of years and covers 4,074 stock funds. An additional 566 stock funds merged into other funds.

Black Blade: Outflows from mutual funds have been accelerating recently setting new monthly records. It should continue to get "interesting".

Goldilocks 1$$$$$328.80$$$$$#8469909/09/02; 21:39:15

The reason why I picked this price is because 911 is irrelevant and the price of gold will rise on it's own power. The direction is upward and rising.
Gold is important to me because it is the only true form of money and I will not accept sea shells.

HopeingIII must come to the defence of Sir Greenspan#8470009/09/02; 21:44:22

I do not enjoy witnessing any person being wrongly maligned. It seems that recently there are many numerous negative articles being written about Fed chairman Alan Greenspan. This is most unfortunate because it is really
simply a case of his being repeatedly misquoted. You see, in all those hundreds (perhaps thousands) of times that he reportedly talked about "productivity", he was misquoted and actually said "fraudactivity", and, as it turns out he was in almost all cases, bang on. I offer just three excerpts as an example of my observation.

Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan
Fraudactivity and efficiency in the Federal Reserve System
At the dedication of the new Birmingham Branch Building of the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta
December 8, 2000

This afternoon, it is my distinct pleasure to be with you at this dedication ceremony to speak about the gains in fraudactivity and efficiency that technology is bringing to the Federal Reserve. We are standing in an exemplar of this phenomenon. This new structure--which succeeds a building dating to 1927--will for the first time use automated guided vehicles and an automated stacking and retrieval system to process and store both currency and coin. Until now, we've used such systems only for currency.
Buildings such as this new Birmingham Branch, employing the most modern

Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan
Information, fraudactivity, and capital investment
Before The Business Council, Boca Raton, Florida
October 28, 1999

Your focus on technology--particularly the Internet--and its implications is most timely, because as this century draws to a close, the defining characteristic of the wave of technological innovation sweeping over the U.S. economy is the role of information.

The veritable avalanche of real-time data has facilitated a marked reduction in the hours of work required per unit of output and a broad expansion of newer products whose output has absorbed the workforce no longer needed to sustain the previous level and composition of production. The result during the last five years has been a major acceleration in fraudactivity and, as a consequence, a marked increase in standards of living for the average American household.

#108/00 August 28, 2000
Greenspan on Globalization and Fraudactivity
(Current fraudactivity growth shows no sign of slowing, he says)
U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan says the current wave of globalization is being aided by strengthening economic growth, which is being driven by the greater use of innovations in advanced technology.
Greenspan said to a conference of economists and central bankers August 25 in Wyoming that the wave of technology has produced a rise in the rates of return on high-tech investments, which has in turn expanded capital and increased fraudactivity growth.

I rest my case.

Black BladeThe Great Failure of Central Banking by Stephen Roach (New York)#8470109/09/02; 21:50:19


Asset bubbles in equity and property markets in the late 1980s created enormous excesses in Japan's real economy and in its financial system. The history of Japan's pre- and post-bubble period tells us that the BOJ was late in recognizing the perils of what was to come. Its monetary policy stance was too accommodative in the late 1980s, thereby nurturing the build-up of the bubble. And it was too restrictive in the early 1990s, failing to appreciate the deflationary risks that always get unleashed in the aftermath of a popped asset bubble. Some 13 years after its bubble crested in 1989, Japan is still picking up the pieces. An alternative approach by the BOJ could have made a real difference.

It's different in America -- I guess it always is. But the similarities with Japan should not be ignored. America's asset bubble created its own set of distortions in the real economy. Capital spending went to excess as Corporate America became convinced it could acquire Nasdaq-like multiples through open-ended investment in new information technologies. Remember the e-based IT spending frenzies associated with B2B and B2C? The Y2K panic was the icing on this rapidly rising cake. Consumers also got lured into the bubble, increasingly viewing outsized equity returns as permanent substitutes for saving the old-fashioned way -- out of their paychecks. By the end, the very fabric of the US economy had been transformed -- the bubble had become the heart of the New Economy.

Black Blade: Yet Japan continues to prop up a failed banking system and a crashing stock market while gutting its own currency while buying US dollars. The US does not seem to learn vicariously. "Interesting Times"

Au-some$$$$$311.30$$$$$#8470209/09/02; 22:07:13

When nothing happens on 9/11 the powers that be will step on gold to the tune of "under three twelve". A chance to get in. And, it's a d**n shame that FRN's are not redeemable in gold - but they are exchangeable...doh! Oh well, off to slay a couple of Carling Black Labels!
Gold is important to me because...the quantity cannot be increased by fiat.

CreosoteBirthday#8470309/09/02; 22:08:29


Everyone's on pins and needles due to 9/11. It wouldn't take much to make POG pop! I hope nothing happens, but think it could. Even war measures which currently seem to be stepping up could cause a rise.

mikalWhy the politics of war require holding gold- an instrument to be revived and respected like no other wealth holding#8470409/09/02; 22:12:15

September 9, 2002, 11:13pm
''The most foolish of wars''
Printed on Sunday, September 08, 2002 @ 02:32:40 EDT ( )
By Ghazal Shafiei Guest Columnist (United States)
( – These days what seems to be in every headline in the newspapers all around the world is the impending war with Iraq. It is deemed to be the next 'step' in the famous war on terrorism by the Bush administration, and it has the whole world on edge. Yet with all his so-called justifications and saber rattling, Bush has met only resistance in his quest for Saddam's head..... Instead of attacking Iraq to instigate a regime change, the U.S. should support and encourage change from within Iraqi society. The idea that the violent overthrow of a leader by a country 7000 miles away, and the replacement of that leader with another pro-western puppet dictator who would bring democracy to the Middle East is an idea lost in delusion. The fact that the Bush administration does not insist on a system of democracy for its allies in the region (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and the Persian Gulf states), and indeed actually supports those dictatorial regimes reveals the hypocrisy of the administration. Again, this is an inconsistency not lost on the people of those countries. The day the United States stops its support of all dictators in the region, and in the world, is the day when America will find allies in unusual places and will turn back the tide of anti-Americanism.
.....In an area of the world where anti-American feelings are at a fever pitch due to the Israeli-Palestinian debacle, attacking an Arab and Muslim country that has done nothing to the United States could only unleash more Osama bin Ladens and would jeopardize every single American life at home and abroad.
[Ghazal Shafiei is 19 years old and was born in Tehran, Iran. She and her family fled Iran during the devastating Iran-Iraq war and came to America in 1986 when she was 4 years old.....(click link for more) Considering the number of dictatorships in the region, and world, many more wars are inevitable. And if one superpower fades, another rises, bringing conquest and chaos. The newly discovered Saudi desert gold may someday replace their oil revenues and even bring a "regime change" and disarmament. I could not pass up the opportunity to read and post this, for it's unusually good ideas, background, and proposals.


The following was taken from The James Joyce Table @Le Cafe
and further incriminates Barrack as a tool of the Bullion Banks.No self respecting investor should hold their shares.
It's no wonder silver is being held under water!

Dear Bill,
Perhaps a bit off topic, but I was interested to see that in the 2nd quarter Barrick sold an additional 12 million oz of silver forward, bringing total forward silver sales to 38 moz at an average price of 4.98 up from 4.92 at the end of 1Q02. Written calls remained unchanged at 20.75 moz at an average price of 5.15 bringing its total short position in silver to 58.8 moz at an average price of 5.04.

In the same period the total gold position declined by (3.5) moz, comprised of (0.1) moz of forward sales to 17.9 moz, (0.4) moz of written calls and (3.0) moz of "variable priced contracts with caps and floors" (i.e. the potential toxic stuff), leaving 0.4 moz of written calls and 2.7 of the exotics. There are also 5.7 moz tied up in " gold lease rate swaps", whatever these are, for a total hedged position of 26 moz.

While the dollar amounts of the silver positions are small relative to those of the gold positions, a total short position of ca 1600 tons is interesting to say the least, especially given the close synchrony in the timing of attacks on both metals.

steadynothing new under the sun?#8470609/09/02; 22:58:13

"Suspicion was rife that Britain had manipulated the rupee in order to snatch the vast private hoards of Indian gold"

Will they do it again?

England was forced to go off the gold standard on 21 September 1931 when the second Round Table Conference was sitting in London. The Government of India, without reference to the British cabinet, announced that the rupee was delinked from gold as well as sterling in order to minimize the impact of Britain's economic crisis on the Indian economy. But Secretary of State Samuel Hoare instructed New Delhi to issue an ordinance linking the rupee back to sterling. Kanji Dwarkadas(8) writes: "I was in Simla all that fortnight of this crisis in constant contact with Sir C.P. Ramaswamy Aiyer, the Acting Member for Law, and Sir Ibrahim Rahimtoola, President of the Indian Legislative Assembly. Lord Willingdon [the Viceroy] and all the members of his Executive Council protested against Sir Samuel Hoare's cable and offered to resign in a body.... Hoare got hold of Ghanshyamdas Birla, who was in London for the Round Table Conference...and between them, they managed to get a press interview from Gandhiji on this rupee-pound crisis. Reuters circulated Gandhiji's interview that nothing hasty should be done at this crisis and the status quo [that is, the sterling-rupee link] should be maintained!" According to Dwarkadas, in his subsequent cable to Willingdon, Hoare referred to Gandhi's advice, refused to accept the offer of resignation from the Viceroy and his Executive Councillors, called upon them to maintain the status quo by relinking the rupee to the pound as before.(9) So the Viceroy, to quote R.J. Moore,"vainly resisted to a point just short of resignation the Cabinet's decision to keep the rupee tied to the pound, regardless of the price of gold".(10) And the rupee remained tied to the fluctuating pound at the old rate of one rupee to 1s. 6d. to serve imperialist interests.

G.D. Birla claimed that he had objected to relinking the rupee to sterling.(11) It was not unusual for men like Birla to take a public stance which was quite contrary to their private stand on an issue. They were ever eager to serve the raj in order to serve themselves.

why does it all always go back to brittan? especially what the bank of england did in 1694 click the link to read the rest!

ZhishengMutual Fund Participation Versus Directly Owning Stocks#8470709/09/02; 23:01:41

In message 84698, posted by Black Blade, 'twas stated that
414 mutual funds had been liquidated since March of 2000.

I have often wondered which was the more wise when one was intent in investing in stocks: to place one's money in mutual funds or to buy stocks directly. Does anyone know, when these 414 funds were liquidated, roughly what fraction of their investments the fund investors salvaged?

GoldnSilver2002$$$$ 312.00 $$$$$$#8470809/09/02; 23:39:52

I hate to say it but war on iraq is months away.If nothing happens sept 11th the world will give a collective sigh of relief and the cabal will use this pause to step on P.O.G again.The markets now are so heavily manipulated no one knows the truth anymore.The only constant seems to be gold goes up and then gets hammered down.No wonder no one can put a date on when gold will be set free,how can they keep it up for so long when the whole world now knows?


Black BladeAustralia crop forecasts slashed by drought #847099/10/02; 01:49:17


SYDNEY, Sept 10 (Reuters) - The Australian government's commodities bureau revealed on Tuesday the savage impact on the nation's crops of an El Nino-aggravated drought, slashing its forecast for 2002/03 to the lowest levels in around a decade. The Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics (ABARE) said the drought had savaged wheat, barley, canola, cotton, rice and other crops. "The spreading drought is having a devastating effect on this year's Australian grain crop," ABARE Executive Director Brian Fisher said in the latest Australian Crop report. Australia vies with Canada as the second-largest wheat exporter in the world behind the United States, with exports mainly used for bread and noodles in Asia and the Middle East.

Black Blade: Crop failures are noted not only in Australia, but also in Asia and the Americas. It is too late in the year to get any crops in now. Supplies will be drawn down from stockpiles and the price of grains will continue to trend higher. Feed costs are higher now and ranchers are culling herds. The cost of meats will probably trend higher later next year unless the drought continues longer in which case herds will be decimated further. Eventually food costs will likely rise rapidly as exports drain supply. It should get "interesting".

Black BladeSenate seems ready to approve $6 billion in drought aid #847109/10/02; 01:58:26


WASHINGTON - The Senate is likely to approve almost $6 billion in drought aid for the country's ranchers and farmers as pressures of election-year politics apparently have overwhelmed efforts by President Bush to head off legislation he considers too expensive. With crops withering and ranchers culling herds in numerous Western, Midwestern and Southern states, a dozen or more Republicans seem ready to join most Democrats and vote for the spending on Tuesday.

Black Blade: $6 billion is nice but currency is a bit difficult to swallow and not as nutritious as grain. I think that these politicians are really underestimating the severity of the situation.

misetichInventories Rose in July and Shoppers Added to Debt#847119/10/02; 06:04:50


In a separate report, the Federal Reserve said today that consumer debt rose in July at the fastest pace in eight months as credit card purchases increased the most since November.

Personal borrowing, excluding mortgages, rose at a 7.6 percent annual rate, or $10.8 billion, in July, the Fed said. In June, debt rose at a 6.2 percent pace, or $8.9 billion. Total consumer debt rose in July to $1.724 trillion from $1.713 trillion in June.

Nonrevolving credit, which includes car loans, rose $4.4 billion in July after rising $5.3 billion in June, revised from a $4.6 billion increase. Credit card and other revolving debt rose $6.5 billion, after a $3.5 billion increase in June, previously reported as a $3.8 billion gain.

Got gold?

SpartacusEx-Japan official slams IMF for apathy on FX rates #847129/10/02; 07:25:39

TOKYO, Sept 10 (Reuters) - The International Monetary Fund needs to get back to basics and do more to ensure stability among the world's leading currencies, a former senior Japanese official said on Tuesday.

Toyoo Gyothen, who used to be vice finance minister for international affairs, used the platform of a symposium to commemorate the 50th anniversary of Japan's membership of the IMF and the World Bank to deliver a stinging attack on the Washington-based lender.

"It seems almost obscene to observe that the fund, which used to be the staunchest guardian of exchange rate stability, has now become...apathetic to this problem," said Gyothen, who is now president of the Institute for International Monetary Affairs, a Tokyo think tank.

Arguing that the price of instability among the dollar, yen and euro had been quite obvious during recent financial crises, Gyothen also called on the IMF to take a harder line against what he called "speculative greed-driven flows of short-term capital".

TruthcasterRising Gold Stopped#847139/10/02; 07:27:11

After The Fall In Gold At The Close More
Weakness Is Taking Place Once Again At The
Open This Morning. This Is Kind Of A Surprise
With All The News Of War In The ME And New Threats
Of Terrorism On Some Of The Us Embassies Over Seas.
But It Seems To Me That The 320s In Gold Per Oz.
Is Very Uncomfortable For Some ie JPM And The Like.
I Don't Know Who Said It Here On This Post But
The One That Said That JPM Runs In To Trouble At
Or Around 330 Gold I Think Has Hit The Nail On The
Head.. Well Thanks For All Your Good Posts Here
It's The First Thing I Read Every Day. And The Info
Is Great. It's Such A Breath Of Fresh Air As A Young
Investor Of 17 years Old. Thanks !! Truthcaster...

SpartacusMoral Hazard Proliferates in Indian Stock Market#847149/10/02; 07:30:03

New Canaan, Connecticut, Sept. 8 (Bloomberg) -- India's decision to pump some $3 billion into the country's largest mutual fund has investors cheering.

India's taxpayers, whose money is being spent, won't be. And disinterested observers can't be sanguine about public funds bailing out private investors whose judgment has been reckless -- what insurers call moral hazard. When investors are protected from the consequences of their bad decisions, you only guarantee more bad judgment in the future.

Tommy PU.S. spy jailed in Canada, now gone missing#8471509/10/02; 08:56:51

mmmmm, read about this before in the Canadian papers a while ago, looks like the Authorities finally got a hold of the dude!!!! its all in the name of OIL!!!!
old goldInsider trading/corruption/lies#8471609/10/02; 08:58:06

Looks as though the war has accomplished the objective already. All attention is on Iraq! Our corrupt financial system is all but a as usual! Bubble?? Most are in a "denial" bubble. Be prepared for when it pops! Don't let them fool you. Buy and hold physical!! The next five years will be completely different than the last, even though it doesn't "appear" that way yet.
sectorSEC probe sizing up big banks#8471709/10/02; 09:09:17

Enron relationships with 2 firms at issue

Sept. 9, 2002, 10:59PM

Reuters News Service

WASHINGTON -- Government investigators probing Enron Corp. have notified two major Wall Street banks of possible civil action related to the collapsed energy trader, while interviews of former Enron insiders have accelerated sharply in recent days, sources said Monday.

The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, under pressure to show results on the Enron case, has sent Wells notices to two unnamed Wall Street investment banks, said sources close to the case.

The SEC staff sends a Wells notice to a company to say it is considering recommending the commission take action against the company, which can then respond in writing.

The SEC -- which has already charged former Enron financier Michael Kopper with securities fraud -- declined to comment.

Three major Wall Street banks were brought before Congress this summer to explain their dealings with Enron: Citigroup's Salomon Smith Barney unit, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and Merrill Lynch and Co.

All three said their relations with Enron were proper.

"Wells notices have gone out to two banks," said a source who asked not to be identified.

Said another: "Some banks have received Wells notices ... Who has gotten them, I don't know."

A Merrill spokesman declined to comment, except to say, "We always cooperate fully with inquiries." Citigroup and J.P. Morgan also declined to comment.

At the same time, sources said, the SEC and the Department of Justice have been bringing former Enron directors and executives into Washington for intensive interviews.

"They're trying to determine, along a number of lines of inquiry, whether the financial statements were misstated beyond what's been reported to date," a source said of the Enron statements.

The three banks have a variety of ties to Enron.

A number of individual executives at Merrill personally invested in a partnership run by former Enron Chief Financial Officer Andrew Fastow that was used by Enron to keep certain assets off its books.

In addition to extending lines of credit to Enron, J.P. Morgan marketed the use of complicated partnerships, such as synthetic money market structures, as a way for the energy company to keep new-business development costs off its books.

The interviews may signal a shift by prosecutors away from technical accounting aspects of the case and toward allegations of fraud that are simpler for juries to grasp, sources said.

The accelerated pace of interviews and depositions also points to the likelihood of more legal action, lawyers said.

"Everybody is just kind of waiting for another shoe to drop.

"The sense is that it's going to happen sooner rather than later," said Philip Hilder, a former federal prosecutor and head of the law firm Hilder & Associates in Houston.

On Aug. 21, Kopper became the first Enron insider to plead guilty and agreed to cooperate with a criminal probe into the collapse of Enron, which filed for bankruptcy on Dec. 2.

Kopper helped set up and manage a vast network of partnerships designed to hide debt, pad profits and deceive investors, prosecutors said.

He pleaded guilty to money laundering and fraud charges in a hearing in Houston.

Houston-based Enron's collapse wiped out thousands of jobs and billions of dollars in equity and was the first in a wave of corporate scandals that damaged U.S. investor confidence.

JPM shareholders will lose more than their dividend.

sectorDid Some Decoding on the YAHOO site - Here's the HUI without ads#8471809/10/02; 09:23:01^hui

It loads very rapidly without the usual, time-consuming ads.

One may wish to experiment a little with the url by trying ^XAU and ^TYX [30 yera bond] or any of the other YAHOO indexes which, BTW, are real-time data.


Gandalf the WhiteWELCOME Master Truthcaster#8471909/10/02; 10:09:04

Great to have young eyes and ears at the TABLEROUND !
Goldhearts believe that Gold can span the generation gap.

youngbugI Agree#8472009/10/02; 10:20:54

Yes Oldgold I agree,I also feel the jig is up and many don't see it.I want to say that I appreciate this forum and have been lurking for about two years ,but Al Fuchino kinda gave me a kick in the seat of pants 'so to speak,concerning those that only lurk and never post . My main hangup is my slow typing.I do hold gold in the raw form (nuggets) which we(Dad Mom myself and an oldtime prospector)prospected for in the land where "men moil for gold" back in '79.Quite an experiance,doing it the way it was done in the gold rush of '97/98,boiler, steampoints,windlass,rockerbox,goldpans etc...Steaming down to bedrock through the permafrost at -30F, but to see the gleam in the old prospectors eyes when He looked up at me ,as I cranked up another bucketfull of what was hopfully paydirt,was worth it all.Even from thirty feet away I could see the much sought after metal shining bright yellow against the steel.( I've actually started to tremble a little).We also hand mined the gravel bars along the Stewart River,half oz a day was about the best we could do,but once again at the end of the day when we pulled the punch plate on the box,on top of the old wool army blanket would be a soft shimmering river of flour gold, 90% pure or better due to centuries of pounding along that river bed.
The effect that gold has upon mens souls is incredible,good and bad,depending upon the motive for aquiring it.One time Dad had to settle a little dispute between the crew that were running the mine and the bosses(gamblers as we found out later)the crew was only being paid half thier wages, so they filled the back of the foremans pickup with the days cleanup(about 3 barrels of concentrate with 40 oz of gold in them),backed up to the cook shack got out their '06's and said "pay up" of course the gambler ,I mean boss,got his out then Dad stepped in and calmed everybody down.We had to be at the mine in order to collect the royalty payments in gold , which was not easy to do as you can imagine.Just one example of many that I've heard from my time in the land where "men moil for gold".
I should sign off for now as I have some ther things to do. Yes , Gold got some and should get some more.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8472109/10/02; 10:24:42

UPDATE #11 (as of Tuesday at 1020 Denver time 9/10/02)
FYI ------ HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on NY COMEX:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7
9/9/02 $325.5 $322.4 $322.8s Change + $1.3
PROGRESS report on NY COMEX on 9/10/02 at 11:45 NY time
----------$321.5 $318.7 $318.9 Change - $3.9

Listed in descending order of Price.

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 337.0 $$$$ Creosote (09/09/02; 22:08:29MT - msg#: 84703)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.5 $$$$ Hipplebeck (9/9/02; 11:52:25MT - msg#: 84676)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.8 $$$$ Goldilocks 1 (09/09/02; 21:39:15MT - msg#: 84699)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)
$$$$ 323.6 $$$$ Yukon (09/08/02; 22:57:32MT - msg#: 84636)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 312.0 $$$$ GoldnSilver2002 (09/09/02; 23:39:52MT - msg#: 84708)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)
$$$$ 311.3 $$$$ Au-some (09/09/02; 22:07:13MT - msg#: 84702)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
The POG is like that old saying of "Watching the bouncing BALL, -- UP and DOWN, where she stops nobody knows" !

sectorU.S. to Raise Terror Alert Level#8472209/10/02; 10:27:46

Condition Orange

By John Solomon
Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, September 10, 2002; 12:10 PM

WASHINGTON –– On the eve of the Sept. 11 anniversary, the Bush administration decided Tuesday to raise the terror alert level for the first time to code orange, signaling a high danger of attack, a government official told The Associated Press.

The official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said the decision would be announced at 1 p.m. EDT by Attorney General John AShcroft, FBI Director Robert Mueller and Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge.
© 2002 The Associated Press

Gandalf the WhiteWELCOME Sir Youngbug#8472309/10/02; 10:34:49

The Hobbits LOVE true stories of Goldhearts.
AND also THANKS Al F. !

Operative@ youngbug#8472409/10/02; 10:42:08

Thanks for your post reflecting your gold mining adventures.
Enjoyed reading it while feasting on a golden salad from the garden. As good as it feels to purchase a golden coin and hold it in one's hand, what a thrill it must be to see a nugget laying in the open earth. Off to do some chores and daydream about permafrost and gold nuggets.

OperativeWar Going On In The Dollar Chart#8472509/10/02; 10:48:00

Wow, most interesting war going on in the dollar today.
Check out the action.

Paper AvalancheDo you ever wonder if some people believe in hell?#8472609/10/02; 10:49:58

"The risk premium built into stock prices is the highest
in 15 years," adds Abby Joseph Cohen. "We thought
investors would be more accepting of risk this year. The
stock market is undervalued."

SiochainaOrange Alert#8472709/10/02; 11:08:25

Gov't has moved up alert due to "chatter" similar to 9/10 of last year

They believe it may impact more overseas but not sure and want to be super aware & prepared

May effect events scheduled for tomorrow

Siochainasector#8472809/10/02; 11:10:50

sorry to duplicate...see you already posted the alert's now getting a lot of cable coverage of guessing etc
The HooplePaper Avalanche#8472909/10/02; 11:35:21

I personally believe in Hell. Every time I hear AJC blather I briefly think I am there. I can't get the remote volume shut off quickly enough. FWIW I think she has become a buffoon to even die-hard bulls. Her and Ralph Make-em-poorer will be sent to pasture prety soon I think.
GrahamIraq War Plans I: Aims, Perceptions and Issues#8473009/10/02; 12:42:58


All wars begin with war plans. Behind all war plans are war aims. Normally, the simpler the war aim, the greater the likelihood of success. The United States has quite complex war aims compared to Iraq. This is due partly to the complexity of the mission and partly to the high degree of confidence the American military has in itself. Paradoxically, the same operations that are the basis for U.S. confidence also are fueling an Iraqi sense of confidence.


Clausewitz teaches that the best war plans are the ones with the simplest goals: In situations where there are complex goals, the best plans are those which can identify a single center of gravity, where success can be leveraged to achieve more complex war aims without the diffusion of forces and effort. The more war aims you have, the more difficult they are to achieve and the more likely they are to be contradictory and self-defeating.

Therefore, the main goal is always to reduce the number of war aims to only the essential. Once this is achieved, a single enabling point -- a center of gravity -- must be identified that, if won or destroyed, will yield all other benefits.

The problem with American war aims in Iraq is that they are numerous, and they are complex. Six distinct aims can be identified already:

1. Replace Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein's regime with one compatible with American interests.
2. Maintain the territorial integrity of Iraq so that it remains a counterweight to Iran, and so that nationalist ambitions by ethnic Kurds in northern Iraq do not disrupt U.S.-Turkish relations.
3. Eliminate the threat of weapons of mass destruction by having total direct access to all of Iraq.
4. Change the perception of American effectiveness in the Islamic world.
5. Destroy collaboration between Iraq and al Qaeda.
6. Minimize U.S. casualties.

Aims 1, 2 and 6 stand in tremendous tension with one another. Replacing Hussein's regime inevitably will threaten the territorial integrity of Iraq, unless the United States directly commits massive forces. That risks rising casualties. But without ensuring territorial integrity, aims 3, 4 and 5 will be imperiled. This is the war-planning problem the United States must solve.

The complexity of Washington's aims contrasts dramatically with Iraq's single goal: regime survival. For Hussein, the mere survival of his regime will constitute a victory. For the United States, simply destroying his regime does not guarantee success.

more at link...

barnaclebobCNBC IS TAKING A POLL ON GOLD INVESTMENT #8473109/10/02; 12:48:50

Once there, scroll to the middle of the page to the CNBC-TV icon...then click on the following phrase:

"Power Poll: Glittering gold?"

mikalBlair dedication to Euro bearish news for greenback#8473209/10/02; 13:01:18

UK risks marginalisation if outside euro- Blair
By Stephen Cunningham
BLACKPOOL, England, Sept 10 (Reuters) - Prime Minister Tony Blair said Tuesday Britain risked being marginalised if it did not adopt the euro and he played down speculation his government had gone cold on joining the 12-nation single currency bloc.
"Be under no doubt: if the economic tests are met, Britain should join the single currency," he told the Trades Union Congress annual conference.
In a clear message that he will not be distracted from pursuing a pro-euro agenda by the growing prospect of military action against Iraq, Blair said it would be an error of vast proportions for Britain to turn its back on the continent.
"For Britain to be marginalised in Europe, when soon the EU will have 25 members stretching from Portugal to Poland and the largest commercial market in the world, would not just be economically unwise," Blair said.
"It would betray a total misunderstanding of the concept of national interest in the 21st century."
On a day which saw oil prices soar to new highs on fears of al Qaeda attacks on oil tankers, Blair also said the greatest challenge facing the modern age was globalisation.
"Tremors in one financial market cause the ground to move round the world," Blair said......
"We have the lowest level of debt out of any European country, and are the least likely to be in a position to have to cut back on spending," he added......
Blair went on to say that he understood manufacturers' concerns over the strength of the pound which has made their goods more expensive in overseas markets in recent years.
"We understand the worry about currency instability, which is one of the main reasons why, in principle, we favour joining the single currency," he added......(more at link)

The Victoriancnbc confirms PPT at work today#8473309/10/02; 13:06:59

It was humorous. One of the anchors on CNBC observed that the DOW was off its recent lows and suddenly up about 60 points. The other anchor responded that they had thought it odd and made a call and found out from traders that there was some "very aggressive buyers of futures contracts" in the last few minutes. Right at 3:00. Right on cue. Sheesh. This pattern gets to be more than a little obvious, doesn't it?
Sierra MadreGraham, your post on Iraq war plans....reported by Strafor#8473409/10/02; 13:24:26

So curious, but after all understandable, that the main point of the war plans is not mentioned at all, under the six points "identified" by Strafor.

Point 7 would of course be the main objective, which must not be mentioned, and which is:



kasperjackSheeple Herders Anonymous#8473509/10/02; 13:41:07

Gold Down Oil up!

LONDON (Reuters) - Oil prices hit new highs on Tuesday as a warning from the
U.S. Navy of potential al Qaeda attacks on oil tankers heightened worries about a
U.S. military campaign against Iraq.

Gimli_PowerPoll: Glittering Gold (Vote At Link Below)#8473609/10/02; 13:44:27

Power Poll: Glittering gold?

Gold traditionally has served as an alluring alternative to stocks in turbulent political times. Are you inclined to put your money into the yellow metal in times like these? Take part in today's Power Poll.

Gold prices have been rallying over the past few weeks as investors chose the yellow metal as a seemingly safer alternative to the roiling stock market.
But aside from the lingering bear market, gold bugs point to plenty of reasons for gold to shine: the weak dollar, violence in the Middle East, fears of a repeated terror attack and a possible military strike against Iraq.

After jumping almost 10% immediately after the Sept. 11 terror attacks, gold prices then hit a two-and-a-half-year high in June. But some analysts believe prices may pull back if the threats of terrorism and war fade away.

In times of crisis, are you inclined to invest in gold? Let Power Lunch know what you think. Register your vote on the left of this page, and e-mail us your rationale. We'll discuss your thoughts on today's show.

Just waking up$$$$$319.0$$$$$#8473709/10/02; 13:46:21

The reason gold is important to me and my family is very simple, and is something I learned here at this forum: it does not depend on the integrity of some unknown counterparty, nor does it depend on the integrity of a precarious financial system controlled by men whose goals and agenda are not in the best interests of me or my country

There are uncertain times ahead, gold is the only thing I am CERTAIN will come through them intact.

Buena Fespeculations#8473809/10/02; 13:51:16

will the thursday UN speech by "w" initialize the acceleration point for gold to assault and conquer 330-335 (et al)?

if he offers no new arguments for an iraq war, will the international community finally say, "enough already" and get back to the business of the changes at hand (euro dom.)?

i don't think au gains because of war-talk, its the otherway around, there is war-talk because au is threatening to expose the under-belly of the $.

HenriGraham msg 84730#8473909/10/02; 13:58:44

All those reasons for invading IRAQ

Why not just declare it the 51st state?

Black BladeBANKING ON BULLION#8474009/10/02; 14:04:13


Amid multinational scams, volatile stock markets and erratic currencies comes a call for the restoration of the world's most tried and tested means of trading - gold. AYMAN DUNSEATH explores the growing interest in this precious metal and its proposed use as the cornerstone of an Islamic trading bloc. A quiet revolution is taking place in the world today. Or perhaps 'revival' is a better definition. The subject of columns and columns of daily business pages, and the means by which the vast majority of the world buy and sell - money, in its 21st century paper and electronic form, is under attack from a growing minority of detractors. Following a series of catastrophic economic collapses linked directly to drastic currency fluctuations, the all-important trust that paper money demands of its users for its very existence is in danger of being eroded. The alternative? Gold - the oldest universal medium of exchange. "Gold cannot be inflated by printing more of it," says Professor Umar Ibrahim Vadillo, president of both Islamic Mint and "It cannot be devalued by government decree and, unlike paper currency, it is an asset which does not depend upon anybody's promise to pay."

November 7, 2001, saw a significant breakthrough in the coins' return into the regular distribution with an official launch in Dubai, marking the first time in recent history that it has entered circulation through established and officially recognised channels anywhere in the world. While interest has been expressed by many, the most enthusiastic and active supporter of the campaign has been Prime Minister Dr Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia. Mahathir has blamed currency speculators for the Asian financial crisis of 1997/98, which spurred him to impose capital controls and fix the local ringgit currency's exchange rate against the dollar.

Black Blade: Interesting 4 page article on the proposed Middle East gold currency. If Middle Eastern Muslims decide to bail out of US markets, they appear to have an alternative. The recent US commissioned reports that declare Arabs as enemies of the United States and the recently filed lawsuit by families of Sept. 11 victims targeting Saudi Arabs may spur a quick acceptance of a new gold currency. "Interesting Times"

kasperjackInvestor Anger Gets Wolkoffs Attention?#8474109/10/02; 14:25:44

Ted Bulter Releases Latest Correspondence with Wolkoff

The guy who refused to deal with Ted Butler has changed his tune.
Investor input matters. Support Gata! Support Ron Paul! Get off your ass
and fight for what you believe in Goldbugs!

kasperjackInvestors Anger Gets Results!#8474209/10/02; 14:33:46

Excerpt From Wolkoff's Reply

Here is a further exchange between Neal Wolkoff of the
Comex and Ted Butler.

September 3, 2002

Dear Mr. Butler:

I am writing in response to your letters, expressing your
belief that the silver market is being manipulated in order
to keep silver prices artificially low. Normally, without
hearing some specific facts to justify an opinion of
manipulation, I would not go through this process of
inquiry and response. However, I am responding as a
means of preserving investor confidence in the market.

davefingerGot a link there, kasper?#8474309/10/02; 14:35:21

Would like to see what you are talking about.
sectorHUI and gold Hammered today#8474409/10/02; 14:42:22

The PPT smashing of gold and its DOW pump...

...are consistent with actions designed to "Help" the financial markets get through what they believe to be an second 9/11 attack. Indeed they further the notion.

The 5th Fleet in the Persian Gulf just went to Red Alert.

These orchestrated retaliatory preparations [Including the bellicose GWB "60 Minutes II" Interview on Wednsday] evening things don't just happen for Presidential Policy marketing value. They have known for some time and are acting on knowledge that we don't have.

The only missing piece to this mystery is the existence of a real black mail WMD threat.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, that Al-Qaeda is mostly bluster these days and that tomorrow passes without incident.

God will be the only force that can help them if they use a WMD on greiving 9/11 survivors.

Sierra MadreHenri: Iraq can't be the 51st state, because....#8474509/10/02; 14:44:40

That position is already taken in advance by Mexico.


Operative$$$ 310.00 $$$#8474609/10/02; 14:54:15

The reason for the delay in posting my guess is I have been trying to compose an indepth and therefore impressive argument for why gold is important to me. I have read many of the posts and thier reasons for owning gold and found myself thinking, "gee, wish I had said that". AFter all the list making and note taking it has boiled down to one main point for me, at least to the best of my understanding allows me. It is the best vehicle for storage/protection of my life's work. Simple and True. Let me repeat, simple, and true. Which may be the reason gold is so far out of favor for the mass public. We dont want simple, we want hi tech, state of the art, new & improved, fancier is better with lots of bells and whistles. Simple is too passe.

I am not so sure we really want truth anymore, it too is out of fashion it seems. At least for one thing, it certainly is not easy to find truth. When is the last time a person in high position, government or private, gave a speech or interview and you were able to honestly say, the words spoken were correct and true? Doublespeak is here, and alive and well. Truth, is more rare than even gold. The old saying, "He who has eyes let him see, and ears let him hear" sounds very simple. Almost childish, but as most here know the opening of the eyes, ears, and mind can be a most difficult proposition if not a painfull process. The search for truth is indeed that, a search involving effort and work.

Gold: Simple and True, and of Value! No complicated computer based trading program needed. No deep discussions with your broker or banker required. Having millions so you are invited to the next IPO offering is not needed. You dont need the contacts of Martha Stewart so you can get out of a trade just in the nick of time. No degrees or high education is required, no special training. Anyone, can simply decide that fiat is not true, but gold is.

Did I make the case for simple and true too complicated?

Now, my guess of 310 is based on no self respecting terrorist would give up one of his most usefull tools, that of the element of surprise so therefore nothing major to happen on Sept 11. (Besides, the whole world will be reflecting on the past 11th, sort of giving the terrorist the attention he wants anyway) The stock market will go up and the bop lever pulled to try and force gold down. (JPM and others really getting worried over golds recent rise) So I think gold will give all of us simple minded folks another great opporutunity to load up while it still is heavy for the price.

Paper Avalanche@ mikal - GB and the Euro#8474709/10/02; 15:02:47

Greetings Mikal:

Was it not said by someone on the golden trail that the day Great Britain adopts the Euro is the day that the fits hits the shan and the dollar will be sold for whatever it will bring? I have read reports that the referendum for GB adopting the Euro is May of next year. That is roughly eight months away. Not alot of time for those who have procrastinated and think that they will always be able to pick up physical gold at the paper price.

Tick, tock.

Paper Avalanche

sectorUS demands seizing of terror funds#8474809/10/02; 15:03:03

''There is more than a modest reason to smile if [the reports represent] a retreat by would-be bankers of terror from 21st century digitized commerce into an awkward, cumbersome, Neanderthal economy of lugging gold bullion across mountain borders under cover of night,'' he said.

Harsh economic penalties await the uncooperative, world's nations warned

By Scott Bernard Nelson, Globe Staff, 9/10/2002

AMBRIDGE, England - The highest-ranking lawyer at the US Treasury Department told a gathering of economic ministers and money-laundering specialists yesterday that ''there will be hell to pay'' for any country that doesn't help America in the financial war against terrorism.

Speaking to representatives of 80 nations at Cambridge University's Jesus College, Treasury's general counsel, David Aufhauser, said governments and financial companies worldwide have to realize they were the ones responsible for letting terrorists keep, hide, and transfer money across borders in recent decades.

One year after the Sept. 11 attacks on New York and Washington, he said, it's no longer enough for anyone to say they didn't know their systems were being used for illicit purposes.

Countries that don't do everything in their power to stem the flow of money to known terrorist groups will face increasingly harsh economic penalties and will find themselves cut off from the global economy, he said.

''The man who finances terror is responsible for terror,'' Aufhauser said. ''And the intermediary who facilitates the transit of funds [for terrorism] is responsible for asking and accountable for indifference if he doesn't.''

Both Aufhauser and US assistant attorney general Michael Chertoff also expressed frustration about a United Nations review panel's conclusion last month that the terrorist group behind the Sept. 11 attacks is fiscally ''fit and well and poised to strike again at its leisure.''

They said the UN report focused on the amount of assets held by alleged terrorists that has been frozen, rather than on other measures, such as arrests stemming from the investigations or the difficulty Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda organization now has raising money or moving cash to fund additional operations.

''Our emphasis on freezing and seizing [assets] is not about collecting money from these groups,'' Chertoff said. ''The focus of our efforts is on drying up sources of funds that can be used to promote terrorism.''

As an example, Aufhauser pointed to recent reports that Al Qaeda and remnants of the former Taliban government in Afghanistan have quietly shipped large quantities of gold out of Pakistan in recent weeks, sending it through the United Arab Emirates and Iran to Sudan. If the group is resorting to gold and precious metals to fund its operations, he said, the global crackdown is having an impact.

''There is more than a modest reason to smile if [the reports represent] a retreat by would-be bankers of terror from 21st century digitized commerce into an awkward, cumbersome, Neanderthal economy of lugging gold bullion across mountain borders under cover of night,'' he said.

Still, most of the discussion yesterday at the Cambridge International Symposium on Economic Crime focused on how far the world's bankers and government officials still have to go in figuring out how to dam the river of terrorist money. Until a year ago, most agreed, virtually nobody talked about the dynamics of financing terrorism.

Representatives from a few developing countries grumbled loudly at the Americans' hawkish stance, but none took the stage to denounce it. Nonetheless, there was clearly a feeling by some in the crowd that the developed economies of the world are at least partially responsible for the situation by allowing large pockets of poverty to fester, creating an environment where extremists can attract a following.

But with the shadow of Sept. 11 seemingly filling the dark, stone hallways of this centuries-old university yesterday, the sentiment was heavily in favor of those who would make immediate regulatory and private-sector changes in an effort to stymie terrorist funding.

''We know that you can't organize a large, international terrorist organization without large amounts of money,'' Lord Williams of Mostyn, leader of England's House of Lords, told the delegates. ''The question is what are we going to do about it?''

The gathering was part of an annual symposium that attracts 800 to 900 of the world's leading bankers and government ministers to debate money laundering and economic crime.

Scott Bernard Nelson can be reached at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. .

The bad guys are bad but is gold "...a Neanderthal economy"?

Sounds like they are a little miffed at the idea that gold can't be "Frozen".

WaveriderDAILY GOLD MARKET REPORT #8474909/10/02; 15:49:24

Thanks BB!
seagull$$$$ 314.70 $$$$#8475009/10/02; 15:53:53

I became interested in gold in 1997 when, as a novice trader of stock options, I was decimated by the Asian Crisis. A year later, and with my account restored, the LTCM debacle put me in an unrecoverable position. The education I received here helped me understand why this occurred and I have been hooked ever since. A friend allowed me to hold a 1oz coin once, and it was love a first feel! It is obvious that gold holds the key to the machinations of the market. My only sadness (and frustration) is that my hand-to-mouth situation prevents me from participating!
Sierra MadreKeep it simple!#8475109/10/02; 16:02:09

I like that post earlier that mentioned Von Clausewitz's wise advice to the military at any time: the simpler and clearer your objective, the more likely your victory.

I apply it to the policy of protecting one's self from pillaging by governments of all types. They are waging war on the individual, and now they call it "War on Terrorism".

If gold is classified as "Neanderthal", why is it so important to corral it, and why do Central Banks still hang on to it? (And if they lend it, they won't admit it). Gold is vitally important. Calling it names belies a great fear of it.

Here's Von Clausewitz advice again:

"Clausewitz teaches that the best war plans are the ones with the simplest goals: In situations where there are complex goals, the
best plans are those which can identify a single center of gravity, where success can be leveraged to achieve more complex war
aims without the diffusion of forces and effort. The more war aims you have, the more difficult they are to achieve and the more
likely they are to be contradictory and self-defeating."



glennh10#8475309/10/02; 16:06:57

Sorry, glennh, but you posted a link to a competitor, so we pulled the post.
Paper AvalancheCreate your own joke - see link#8475409/10/02; 16:13:01

Paper, plastic... who cares?

Seniorage is not dependent upon the unlimited supply of the denominator.


Max Rabbitz$$$$ 318.3 $$$$#8475509/10/02; 16:13:39

Why gold? It's funny how one's perceptions change over time. The world I see now is far different from the one I knew just 2 years ago. Stocks do not have the value of a hard asset. You can buy a share of the infrastructure but you can not control the pirates at the helm. Nor the Royal Navy that is ready to take a cut for the Queen. Then there are the sailers who think they deserve all the profits since they did all the work…..and expect full retirement and medical costs. And the legal profession looking for early retirement on some sunny shore (watch those slippery decks and diversity of your crew). The treasure I hold is from days of yore when pirates were pirates and didn't wear ties. It'll be there long after the ship has gone down and the crew left stranded on some desert isle.

Our trail guide was right. They can control the paper price of gold right up to the time the system breaks down. By then it will be too late. The lions will be mauling the carcass while we little dogs hide with whatever is in our belly.

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #8475609/10/02; 16:31:01

UPDATE #12 (as of Tuesday at 1620 Denver time 9/10/02)
FYI ------ HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on NY COMEX:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7
9/9/02 $325.5 $322.4 $322.8s Change + $1.3
9/10/02 $321.5 $318.7 $319.4s Change - $3.4
Note that the Open Interest has INCREASED over 10K since 9/3

Listed in descending order of Price.

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 337.0 $$$$ Creosote (09/09/02; 22:08:29MT - msg#: 84703)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.5 $$$$ Hipplebeck (9/9/02; 11:52:25MT - msg#: 84676)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.8 $$$$ Goldilocks 1 (09/09/02; 21:39:15MT - msg#: 84699)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)
$$$$ 323.6 $$$$ Yukon (09/08/02; 22:57:32MT - msg#: 84636)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)

$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 319.0 $$$$ Just waking up (09/10/02; 13:46:21MT - msg#: 84737)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 318.3 $$$$ Max Rabbitz (09/10/02; 16:13:39MT - msg#: 84755)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.7 $$$$ seagull (09/10/02; 15:53:53MT - msg#: 84750)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 312.0 $$$$ GoldnSilver2002 (09/09/02; 23:39:52MT - msg#: 84708)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)
$$$$ 311.3 $$$$ Au-some (09/09/02; 22:07:13MT - msg#: 84702)

$$$$ 310.0 $$$$ Operative (09/10/02; 14:54:15MT - msg#: 84746)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
The Hobbits count 77 "prognostications" to date and the price range is filling in well ! Do not wait tooooooo long to enter your entry as there is less than two days to go before the Thursday HIGH NOON Denver time DEADLINE.
(I see in my Crystal Ball, another 133+ individuals getting ready to finalize their thoughts.) Shall I name them ?

silvercollectorsector, anyone#8475709/10/02; 16:53:25

I saw the 'orange' alert and Tom Ridge on CNN about an hour and a half ago.

Is the 'red' alert just now? (6:55 eastern)

slingshotGandalf the White#8475809/10/02; 17:18:47

Where does Siege Engine go from here?

Was it not you that said the story is becoming more lifelike? How preceptive you are my friend.

The Siege Engine story is a composite of the real world and fantasy. Each post contained a specific point in the evolution of the POG. Also certain parts of the story were represented market events and Icons. The gate of the Lord of the castle was POG. While the tower was represenative of the Stock Market. The walls of the castle hid the SDR's derivatives,hedging and other manipulative modes of those wishing to surpress Gold. The castle itself is the Central Banks and the FED. Old Allen as you know was the Lord of the Castle. The moat is the media protecting this evil business and the field of years is (for some) the long wait for gold to rise. The Trebuchet the one ounce at a time to aquire wealth. The storm is the effects noone can see.

I express my thanks to all who see your monikers in the story and hope I have not taken to much liberty in their use.

The story still continues but I am afraid a faster pace will befall us all. I thought it best to post this explanation of the story.

To my Host, Thank you, for you are most tolerant.

The King with No Name is alive and well. Who is he? He should be revealed soon!
Gandalf. Only a Wise Wizard can save the day.

Happy Birthday USAGOLD.


R Powellmany, disjointed as usual#8475909/10/02; 17:58:40

Youngbug, that was a most unusual story. I wonder if the Yukon gold miner and other miners among our members saw it. Please explain more when you find time.

Truthcaster said this is his first daily read. I thought this unusual for one of his age. May I ask what first caught your attention towards precious metals and what your friends think of your interest. My friends just roll their eyeballs and signal to anyone present that I'm about 18 points short of a dozen.

B.B. Thanks for the news in 84710 and 84709. I've also heard that Europe was mostly flooded this past summer (sugar beets rotted) Also northeast China was drought striken (cotton and corn) while the midsection of China was severely flooded. In grains, the world may use all this year's production plus the carryover from past years. There is very little supply cushion now left so further bad news should have an even greater price rationing effect. If the CRB continues upward it will signal a price inflation of commodities that will be unmistakenly noticed by all consumers no matter how much the government fudges its inflation numbers. It will be noticed by all, even those who have absolutely no financial interests at all. Even Larry Kudlow will notice and won't be able to say, "There's no inflation! Just look at the POG. There's no inflation."

My question, if and when everyone sees and suffers together from the inflating prices of necessities (commodities are necessities), and the economy adjusts over time with higher wages to offset higher everything else, then what of gold and silver? Is money flow finally sloshing into an economic area that is highly susceptible to consumer felt price inflation??
Peace to all

R PowellThe bone pile#8476009/10/02; 18:08:18

I must sadly report my addition to the pile. As is the nature of self-employed construction workers, I still have work but nowhere near enough. Most of my work is started and completed on a daily basis so five jobs equals five days work. I'm now averaging about three days/week.

The housing industry is never homogenous but my customers have slowed down here in Massachusetts. Hopefully, this is just a late mid-summer slowdown but ???

sector@silvercollector The Red Alert Covers US Military 5th Fleet in the Persian Gulf#8476109/10/02; 18:09:27

Wednesday, September 11, 2002

U.S. Government Raises TerrorAlert on
Eve of September 11 Anniversary

US 5th Fleet in Bahrain Placed on Highest Alert -
While US Navy Warns ME Shipping of al Qaeda
Threat to Persian Gulf Oil Tanker

sectorAntideflation [Read "Inflationary"] steps pushed by coalition#8476209/10/02; 18:28:43

Yomiuri Shimbun

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's latest bid to improve the economy came after he found it almost impossible to resist pressure on the government from the ruling parties to adopt additional antideflationary measures.

The ruling coalition put strong pressure on the government prior to a meeting Monday of the Council on Economic and Fiscal Policy at which the prime minister issued instructions for a new set of antideflationary measures in response to the recent sharp drop in domestic stock prices.

However, the antideflationary package proposed by the ruling parties included few fresh ideas. Given this, it is uncertain whether the Koizumi administration will be able to come up with effective measures against the current deflationary spiral facing the country, according to analysts.

The prime minister's positive attitude toward tax cuts totaling more than 2 trillion yen --which will precede a tax hike--reflected his belief that bold pump-priming steps were essential to halt further slowdown in the economy.

In addition, Koizumi felt that he had to show that he was earnestly working to encourage the economy, prior to his planned talks with U.S. President George W. Bush in New York, a close aide to the prime minister said.

On Monday, Koizumi told reporters gathered at the Prime Minister's Office that subtle efforts to fine-tune the economy will no longer do.

"In the current situation, the economy won't revitalize unless we go ahead with dynamic tax reform," he said.

It is the experts' view that the prime minister intends to decrease corporate taxes on a long-term basis. However the problem for him may be gaining the acquiescence of the Finance Ministry because of the difficulties it faces finding a way to replace the lost revenues.

Members of the ruling coalition parties are said to welcome Koizumi's move, and reportedly expect him to implement as soon as possible the antideflationary policies he outlined during Monday's conference between government representatives and members of the ruling coalition parties.

There are indications, however, that the policies proposed and compiled by the Liberal Democratic Party, may not be implemented smoothly.

The measurs were cooked up in a mere five days, and some party members are said not to be in favor of them.

After the Nikkei Stock Average temporarily fell below 9,000 last Thurday, the LDP, led by party secretary general Taku Yamasaki, compiled a policy agenda consisting of six measures.

During a meeting of the secretaries general of the three ruling coalition parties held before the meeting between the government and the ruling coalition parties Monday, New Komeito opposed the frequently talked-about restoration of the so-called payoff system targeted for April 1, and also the proposed capital gains tax.

As a result of New Komeito's opposition, these two measures are seen as being advocated only by the LDP, not as an agreement among the three ruling parties.

Health, Labor and Welfare Minister Chikara Sakaguchi has cautiously opposed the idea of purchasing of exchange-traded funds (ETFs), a measure the LDP has strongly urged.

"I see it as being rather objectionable to use government pension funds to manipulate stock prices," he said.

Hoshuto (New Conservative Party) leader Takeshi Noda also opposes the measure, saying it functions merely to control the stock market on a short-term basis.

Noda calls it an alternative method of supporting stock prices.

"I don't see how it could be a fundamental solution," he said.

LDP General Council Chairman Mitsuo Horiuchi, the leading advocate of his party's six-item policy agenda, said: "The purchase of ETFs is merely equivalent to buying into capitalism. It has nothing to do with supporting stock prices. In fact, it is extremely effective in recycling individuals' monetary assets into the national economy."

Shizuka Kamei, the LDP's former Policy Research Council chairman, waxed ironic, saying: "I don't quite understand the meaning of people talking about the government going ahead with 'an additional set of antideflationary policies.' There never have been any effective antideflationary policies, in the past or present."
Read here all about the government's efforts to "Support" Japan's economy.

Remarkably similar to Germany's Weimar Republic "Supporting" its population with a little extra fiat money...A basketful for a single loaf of bread.

We are witness to the collective manic thinking of many governments at the same time. Each time I think the future can't get blacker, it gets blacker.

Only gold can act as a shield in deflation AND inflation.

DracoContest entry -- First time poster#8476309/10/02; 18:38:08

$$$$ 319.90 $$$$

Greetings Knights and Lady's of the Roundtable !

First allow me to thank all of the great posters on this fine forum. I have been a "student" here at the forum and on the Gold Trail for the past 18 or so months. The education that I have received has been more valuable than I can put into words. It has allowed me to take all of the bits and pieces of information (puzzle pieces) and to construct, over time, the big picture. What an eye opener! Also I must thank you all for the camaraderie. I sometimes feel that I am the only one who can see the distressing direction that our markets, government and fiat $ are headed in. It's just nice to know that I'm not alone. So I visit here daily to sit at the table and learn all that I can

I would be remiss if I did not also thank MK and the USAGold Forum for providing a place for all of us to gather and exchange ideas and news.

As a dentist, I work with gold and silver on a daily basis, but my interest in PM's began long before that. My adventure into PM's began as a coin collector when I was a teenager. I can still remember when they stopped using silver in 1964. That sparked my interest in silver and I began buying small amounts of silver bullion and junk silver coins. It was after all the "poor mans gold" and I certainly qualified as I only had small amounts of cash in invest in those days. Today my silver stash has grown to the point of being a storage problem. Later I began collecting gold nuggets. What nature does with gold is just beautiful. Well, I was hooked. But it was not until I found this forum, that I really understood how valuable gold will be to my financial future and since that time ALL spare cash has gone towards gold bullion, coins and a small amount of equities ( for future gold purchases of course ). Gold will be the lifeline for me and my family to get to the other side.

I fear not for me, but for my children. The world may become drastically different in the near future and I struggle with how to protect them the best way I can. I took the advise of one poster from a few weeks ago (can't remember who) and began to talk to my kids about money. You should have seen my 11 year old daughters eyes when I torched a $1 bill to light my cigar. As she looked at the ashes in the ashtray, I took a pair of tweezers to hold a 1/2oz. Krugerand and put my lighter to it and explained that even though it may tarnish or even melt it would still be gold and have value. That started a 45 min. conversation on "what is money"

Well that should be enough for now, I will be an infrequent poster as my typing skills are not my strong suit by a long shot. But know that, like hundreds of others, I will be here on a daily basis to gleen what I can from the days posts. God bless you all.

Guns, Gold, and Grub-- a great combination

These are the times that try men's souls...................


slingshotDraco#8476409/10/02; 18:57:25


Post away brother and the dickens with your typing skills.
I was sure surprized when you posted your name for it is about to used in the Siege Engine story. What a surprize!

Do you think I will win a pulitzer?


DracoSlingshot#8476509/10/02; 19:09:06

I can not think of a greater honor for a new poster than to be a part of the Siege Engine story !! I have followed each episode and have looked forward to each new chapter.

I'm sure that if the members of this forum had their say, you would have your Pulitzer.

Thanks for the encouragement to post.


sectorBank chief issues warning on world growth#8476609/10/02; 19:16:36

By Scheherazade Daneshkhu
Published: September 9 2002 22:14 | Last Updated: September 9 2002 22:14

World economic growth is slow and is likely to remain so, Sir Edward George warned Monday.

Speaking on behalf of central banks from the G10 countries the governor of the Bank of England said recovery was taking longer than expected.

However, central bankers, who are meeting in Basle, did not expect the global economy to slip back into recession. "It is not a strongly negative situation. I do not think there was anybody talking in terms of double dip," Sir Edward said.

Fears of a "double dip" recession have grown in recent months after some disappointing US economic figures.

Sir Edward said the G10 bankers were agreed that the main economies were growing, albeit slowly.

No "Double Dip". Alas... these same G-10 mopes said "There's no recession" when the first dip arrived. All the fevered work of their Liliputian economists couldn't erase the recessive numbers.

Pathetic G-10 banking fools.

slingshotDraco#8476709/10/02; 19:25:53


Example. Did you notice how I spelled Titans in the last Siege Engine post? Red Faced :0)

WaveriderSlingshot#8476809/10/02; 19:32:56

Oh man, Slingshot...I missed all of your symbolism...completely! Thanks for spelling it out for us - it is really very creative and ingenious! Do you have the full series? Maybe Gandalf could post it sometime in its entirety - I started keeping the running story only since I joined in but I think that the earlier episodes are well worth archiving somewhere - I'd love to read them again with an understanding now of the symbolism. Thanks for your ideas and great work with this - it's time consuming, I know. And yes...the story will continue with its twists and turns...and the Dance of the Veils...the veils have been sewn in Gold and red silk...and now to go to practice the dance... Cheers,

SundeckUS dollar fluctuations on Sep 10#8476909/10/02; 19:34:01

Greetings first post...

Thanks to our host and to all participants on a very interesting and helpful forum.

I usually monitor variations in the NYBOT dollar exchange rate on a daily basis. I noticed something unusual today between about 0600 and 1200 hrs (see link). Many sudden drops and recoveries of almost 1% in the value of the dollar. I cannot recall seeing anything like this over the period that I have watched these charts - many months.

Does anyone have any comments on what may have been happening?



sectorLBMA Silver Data Pattern#8477009/10/02; 19:51:24

Note That the three lowest monthly silver volumnes since 1997 have happened in 2002

January _294.4__330.4 _214.2_149.2_105.1_175.7
February_275.0_ 347.8_ 277.3_172.7_102.0_108.7

What this data suggests is that their are fewer and fewer sellers at today's artificially suppressed prices. The zero volume extrapolated date is in the first quarter of 2003.

Of course, long BEFORE that date there will be an LBMA market "Adjustment" that will cause the remaining few sellers to exit altogether until a higher price is offered. This adjustment happens when the remaining sellers finally realize this trend and that they can get better prices...usually when they can't see any other but "official" sellers on the floor.

The exception to this hypothesis is if a massive, previously hidden silver hoarder can be convinced to offer their metal to the LBMA at sub-$5 prices.

Otherwise, the LBMA silver crater date is sometime in Q1 2003 or before.

It's like gravity.


Hi there sector---Here in Australia today (A day ahead and already Sept 11) we are being totally swamped with a media blitz on all connections to "that" day. The State run free to air radio (3 channels) is devoting the "whole" day & coming night to a nauseating continual repeat of the devastation. Make NO mistake --the innocent victims of Sept 11 have my full empathy, as do the ordinary US citizens. This is not America & I am angry that a simple remembrance time was not put in place ----instead we get a media feeding frenzy absolutely out of all proportions & reality. It must be turning people off in droves ---

All of a sudden over the past couple of days the airwaves are full of nuclear bomb threats from Iran ---and for good measure the US ambassador to OZ states that there is the possibility of a nuclear bomb being detonated in Sydney Harbour! He is as hard line as I've heard & plays up all the emotive issues while at the same time offering NO PROOF
WHAT SO EVER!! A real D--- Head.

The bottom line is that the propaganda machine of the US Govt is working overtime right now. Links to stories posted at CNN OR DEBKA (A Very slanted Jewish site) are definitely suspect & not to be believed until verified. The current administration got in to Govt by a suspect vote & is desperate to retain power --by any means. Unless they can justify a war & get the eyes off the economy ---they are stuffed. Desperate power-hungry maniacs DO desperate deeds. Keep an open mind --there is a battle going on for your very freedom & it may be lost if enough decent citizens don't stand up to be counted.

slingshotWaverider#8477209/10/02; 20:04:18

Siege Engine

Yes, I do have the full series. The earlier episodes were very course but the story began to take shape. It was my attempt to invite others to post. Frankly, it just happen.
Other attempts failed till the story revolved about the Great Table Round here at the forum. I will tell you the ending is not what you would expect. Maybe each one of us will find our own Golden Trail.
P.S If you are here at USAGOLD, You are part of the story.

BlackjackThird quarter earnings warnings increasing#8477309/10/02; 20:04:43

NEW YORK (Reuters) - An increasing number of companies are warning that third-quarter earnings are unlikely to meet expectations, reversing a trend that began in 2001 and disappointing investors who were optimistic the worst was over.

Companies as diverse as casual apparel retailer American Eagle Outfitters Inc. AEOS.O , railroad operator CSX Corp.CSX.N , and healthcare company MedImmune Inc.MEDI.O have warned investors in recent days that they won't meet profit expectations in the quarter.

Higher earnings bolster stock prices and while analysts still expect profits to grow in the quarter, investors are disappointed that the ratio of warnings to positive pre-announcements is rising for the first time since the fourth quarter of 2001.

And with concerns lingering that the economic recovery may be stalled or delayed as companies fail to increase capital spending, investors are bracing themselves for further blows.

"I'm disappointed more than surprised," said Gregg Summerville, a money manager with Columbus, Indiana-based Kirr, Marbach & Co. which oversees $500 million. "I would have liked the prior trend to continue, though the economic indicators showed that things were softening."

Some 765 companies had made preannouncements for the third quarter by Tuesday, with 401 warning they are unlikely to meet previous guidance, according to Boston-based research firm Thomson First Call.

The number of warnings is 28 percent more than at the same point in the second quarter, and on a par with the third quarter of 2001.

Fast-food operator Jack In The Box Inc.JBX.N on Tuesday halved its quarterly earnings forecast, citing soft sales, store-closing costs and a labor litigation settlement.


"We normally see more negative announcements than positive," said Joe Cooper, a research analyst at Thomson First Call. "As the quarter begins, its 50-50 but the closer to reporting season the more negative announcements, and we are in that stretch now."

To Cooper and others, the increase in warnings is a sign that the economy may not be stabilizing as quickly as had been hoped.

Profit warnings "are an indication the economy has slowed, something the market was already concerned with," said Joe Stocke, managing director, StoneRidge Investment Partners LLC. based in Malvern, Pennsylvania, which oversees $750 million in assets.

The diversity of companies issuing warnings indicates the slowdown "is more broad-based than it once was."

To be sure, there are still 190 companies this quarter which announced they may exceed expectations and 174 that said they are on target to meet forecasts, including Dow Jones industrial average component United Technologies UTX.N , and media group New York Times Co.NYT.N on Tuesday.

Used car dealer America's Car-Mart Inc.CRMT.O raised its outlook for fiscal year 2003 on Tuesday after reporting strong sales and lower credit losses helped triple fiscal first-quarter net income.

But the warnings are bringing down expectations for profit growth, and investors just see more revisions ahead.

"Expectations for the second half are still too high, and downward revisions are discounting a diminished earnings rebound," said Eric Barden, portfolio manager with First Austin Capital Management Inc. which oversees $50 million.

Third-quarter profits for S&P 500 companies are now expected to grow by 10.9 percent in the third quarter. That's down from an expected rise of 16.6 percent at the beginning of the quarter, and almost half the 20.7 percent quarterly earnings growth expected at the beginning of 2002.

For the year, S&P 500 company aggregate profits are expected to grow by 3.5 percent, a lower forecast than the 8.8 percent expectation at the beginning of the year.

And as long as those revisions keep going lower, share prices are not likely to see any sustained rally, anytime soon, investors say.

silvesterPrice Guess Contest $$$$330.9$$$$#8477409/10/02; 20:07:18

Gold is important to me because I believe it provides security for myself and my family. This belief is due to the daily discussion held at this unique site. I do believe we are on the trail that leads to the future.
Al FulchinoRich#8477509/10/02; 20:16:06

sorry to hear that, you have my prayers and best wishes. the housing industry re - fi market has been huge this year. and that money goes two ways...a)spending and b) some extra savings from the info I have read it has been huge. The possibilities of a nice bit of growth in the third quarter is there, barring any terrorist acts. By the way next time I get myself mixed up w cement I will call you.

Being just north of you and in one industry that is very very recession proof and one that is exactly the opposite, I can report that both seem to be hitting on all cylinders, I also have a brother in the landscape maintenance and installation business and he has been turning work away for three years, he is on the north shore, so I truly suspect that as a man of honor and trust in your field that your situation is temporary.

The forum manager has my email add, get me your business card, I will pass them around if you think it would be of use.

The Invisible Hand$$$$ 8,752$$$$#8477609/10/02; 20:18:10

No, Contest Master, I didn't forget you. Here I'm again

The Invisible Hand (2/18/02; 01:46:17MT - msg#: 70296)
Confirmation and discussion ****$ 8,752****
I do hereby confirm my guess of ****$ 8,752 ****
Discussion: Although in an earlier post of the last fortnight I said that A/TG predicted an upward surge of 50 bucks a day, I think it would be more precise to say that the gentlemen argue the unexpected move towards $ 30,000 can occur at anytime. It must thus start once. Why not within the 'time limit' of the contest?

September 10, 2002 (where I'm writing, it's already Sept. 11): The tension is in the air. Watch the Filipino URL. I think my guess is too low, but for the sake of consistency, I will maintain it. Rich, what you think?

Gandalf the White"THE SEIGE ENGINE SERIAL"#8477709/10/02; 20:20:57

slingshot (09/10/02; 20:04:18MT - msg#: 84772)
Siege Engine
Yes, I do have the full series.
AND SO do the Hobbits ! The Chief Editor is touching up things like "TITANS" -- OK ? Ready to post when you say GO!

Gandalf the WhiteYES !!!!!!! $$$$ 8,752$$$$#8477809/10/02; 20:28:27

The Invisible Hand (09/10/02; 20:18:10MT - msg#: 84776)
I KNEW that I could count on you !
The Hobbits are sure hoping that you are the WINNER !!

Black BladeRe: R. Powell and Downunder#8477909/10/02; 20:41:38

Rich – I can sympathize with your addition to the "Bone Pile". I too am self-employed though I am currently biding my time as a number of issues have restricted my work (BLM vs. EPA controversy, lack of government permits, low price of natural gas – Wyoming Pool about 90 cents/Mfc, infrastructure bottlenecks, etc.). As it is, I have just taken all these lemons and decided to make lemonade. I now get in some serious fishing and hunting, work out at the gym daily, catch up on reading and study, etc. I am not worried as I really do practice what I preach. I have got out of debt, have enough savings for a few months, have a nice stash of physical precious metals, and stored lots of nonperishable food and basic items. I don't need to travel to do anything around town as I use my mountain bike for short distance travel. I suppose I could get by for a few years if I had to, but as many find out, whether one is laid off or retired it is more a matter to fighting off boredom than anything else. I hope the best for ya and all who are sitting atop the growing "Bone Pile".

Also, the drought around the world is certainly flying below the radar and few have taken notice. I guess that abundant food is taken for granted these days as few have experienced a famine or believe that only happens in Third World backwaters like Ethiopia and Somalia. The U.S. supplies the lion's share of food to much of the world as we usually produce such an abundance. The last couple of years have been a different story and now that other major producers like Australia, Canada, Africa and Asia suffering from drought there are few who can take up the slack. For reasons like drought and unemployment I continue to advise everyone to get out of debt, stash enough cash for several months expenses, accumulate Gold and Silver portfolio insurance, and to start (as soon as possible) a storage program of nonperishable food and basic necessities. If all works out well then fine, at least you will have peace of mind, and if all does not work out, then at least you will be prepared. If anything you can sleep well at night. Cheers!

Downunder – I think that the reason why the 9-11 event is so hammered (yes even to the point of overkill) is that the World Trade Center attack was an attack on the whole world as many victims were from several countries. I seem to recall that a couple of dozen victims were Aussies as well. Since this new type of war is so unprecedented there will likely be a lot of media coverage for a long time to come. This is a different kind of war with no easily identifiable country or people as a clear target for a military response. As far as the DEBKA site material, yes it is an Israeli tabloid without any substance. I don't recall anything they reported as "military intelligence source" material ever having been true. They lost me at the beginning when they claimed that the Red Chinese troops were storming over the Afghani border and were attacking the US military personnel in Afghanistan. Of course it wasn't true, but their mission appears to be to stir up emotions and to drum up support for causes supported by Israel. Then again, I don't get my news from Al Jaziera either. We do live in "Interesting Times". Cheers!

- Black Blade

Black BladeMarket Wrap Up – Puplava#8478009/10/02; 21:03:52


Corporate Earnings Out Soon

In the next couple of weeks we will enter into the third round of the corporate earnings game. Companies that won't be meeting analysts’ expectations will want to get out front with the bad news. Analysts can then downgrade them, allowing them to come in after the quarter and beat expectations. The market is a game of perceptions rather than reality. Reality matters in the long run. In the short term, it is perception that counts the most. It is going to be important to watch what companies say going forward after Q3 results are released. Everyone expects things to improve by the end of the year. Pro forma earnings growth is still expected to be over 20% for Q4 and economists are still expecting no recession this year. However, the risk to this scenario remains with business spending and the consumer. Businesses are reluctant to spend money with order backlogs still low and no noticeable pickup in revenues. Most companies that have been hitting their profit targets have been doing so as a result of cost cutting -- not revenue increases.

With all of that said, analysts continue to predict that pro forma profits will rise by 11.1% into the third quarter and 22.7% in the fourth quarter. Please note that these are pro forma numbers and therefore do not reflect real profits. These are make-believe numbers, but Wall Street has been turned into an adult fantasyland anyway. Just keep this in mind when third quarter results are released. You'll have to get out your magnifying glass to comb through the fine print to get at the real numbers. Your best bet will be to look at dividend yields which can't be fudged. They actually get paid and are much more trustworthy than some pro forma fantasy. There is absolutely no reason to be invested in most stocks right now other than for technical trading reasons. Markets can rally within a bear market. Trading rallies are every bit a part of bear markets as corrections are in a bull market. Investors should not lose sight of the fact that the primary trend is still down despite whatever hype, drivel, or any other sort of nonsense you hear from bubbleheads and their bubble-promoting guests.

We have had intervention in the financial markets for well over a decade. Just look at today's graph at the first hour of trading and the final two hours of the day. We have intervention in the gold markets, the commodities markets, the stock and bond markets, and in the housing markets. As each policy intervention fails, more are recommended to take their place. It has now become the game of the financial alchemists of changing nothing into something by trying different fiscal and monetary policy mixes. Apparently no one trusts the free markets to work anymore, despite their efficacy in solving problems. What are often criticized as market failure are really the failures of intervention.

Black Blade: An interesting article today and reflects much of what I and others have stated before. The markets are acting quite "funny" lately. The last hour or two of Wall Street trading has lately been marked by some "miracle" turnaround on light volume. Also, the Gold market tends to get hammered on some mysterious "bank" or "fund" selling usually during some period of illiquid trade. As long as precious metals can be "liberated" at bargain prices then there shouldn't be too much to complain about for now. The POG will launch higher soon enough as the stock markets crater when investment houses get tired of "buying market futures" to prop up the market as reported by NYSE reporter Bob Pisanni today on CNBC. The fantasy will be exposed when corporate earnings once again fail to materialize and "pro forma" earnings as conjured up to appease the ignorant. Should be "entertaining".

HoratioPlunge Protection Team#8478109/10/02; 21:12:09

They seem to think 9-11 was going to start a panic to gold or they woulden't have given it a knock.Why not take advantage of thier actions and buy as it will recover as soon as the PERCEIVED threat passes.Its getting quite easy to profit in gold.Just anticipate when the gumment perception of a panic to gold will take place ,wait for them to knock it down for you and hand you a easy trade on the long side.
Now they (the Gumment)are working for YOU.....,not you for them.

Black BladeHaven't hit bottom yet, investors say#8478209/10/02; 21:28:51

Poll: Bullish outlook clouded by distress in short term


NEW YORK (CBS.MW) -- Even though they remain bullish in the long run, almost two-thirds of investors believe U.S. stock markets haven't hit bottom yet, according to a new CBS MarketWatch/CBS News national investor poll. A year after the terrorist attacks, investors see no sign of a market bottom. Battered by the bear market, 45 percent of investors say their retirement portfolio has lost more than a fifth of its value in the last two years, and 18 percent say they're down a third or more, while only 5 percent say they've made any money.

And as Wednesday's anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks approaches, corporate malfeasance outweighs terrorism as the top worry for investors, the poll shows. Half say the recent corporate governance and accounting scandals at companies like Enron (ENRNQ: news, chart, profile) and WorldCom (WCOEQ: news, chart, profile) have made them less likely to buy stocks, compared with 24 percent who say terrorism has made them skittish about investing.

"Putting money in the market is ridiculous," said Allan Rosenfeld of West Chester, N.Y., one of the poll respondents. "The market is phony. Those with money make money. We've always known it, but now it's coming out in black and white, with the Martha Stewarts and people like that." Rosenfeld was one of 1,099 U.S. investors randomly contacted by phone over the weekend of Sept. 6 through 8. The results are likely accurate within three percentage points either way. Investors are disillusioned with the stock market, to say the least. Eighty-five percent of investors say their faith in the market has been shaken by recent events. Sixty-four percent say it's not yet time to buy stocks. Nearly 80 percent say stocks should make up less than half of their investment portfolio. Two-thirds of investors say stocks are a risky investment, compared with 14 percent who say real estate is risky and 45 percent who think gold is a risky investment.

Black Blade: Although I disagree with the last statement above, it is interesting that most investors find gold a safer investment than stocks. A poll on CNBC today demonstrates that the majority of people feel that gold is a safe investment by 59% to 41%. I think that the WGC has a bit of educating to do as part of their primary mission. SoGen Gold Fund manager was a guest and he did state that gold is not an investment, but is "insurance". I do agree with that even though under some circumstances gold could be both. Alan Greenspan mentioned to Congress a few years ago that central banks held gold because it is the "ultimate form of payment". He did not say US dollars, Brit pounds, Japanese yen, Mexican pesos, Burmese kyat, Wampum, or dung cakes. He said gold. That said, the stock market is in piss-poor shape and it will suffer a lot more yet as now consumer spending is falling off, corporate spending simply has not materialized, the "Bone Pile" continues to grow (unless you got work for "Homeland Security" or are a returning teacher), corporate earnings have failed to materialize, etc. Today I read that the zero percent financing had been suspended briefly and as sales dramatically plummeted, the auto manufacturers quickly and desperately reinstated the program. We see that consumer and corporate debt levels are at a new record high (again!) and personal and corporate bankruptcies are on the rise. All this while Americans continue to mortgage their homes to the hilt to keep on spending – that's right! – putting their homes at risk! This will all end very badly.

BTW, grain futures prices have hit new 5-year highs today. Obviously the drought should be getting a lot more attention as these higher costs will be passed along. Also, oil hit over $30/bbl. A lot is happening while everyone is asleep at the wheel.

Black BladeO'Neill Says U.S. Economy Survived Sept. 11 Attacks #8478309/10/02; 21:33:34


Washington, Sept. 10 (Bloomberg) -- One thing that hasn't changed in the year since terrorists struck New York and Washington is Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill's view of the U.S. economy. Two days after hijacked airliners were crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon last year, O'Neill said ``the prospects for a rebound in the economy remain unchanged.'' A year later, that outlook proved correct, he said in an interview last week. He sees the economy growing at a 3 percent to 3.5 percent rate by the end of the year, which was ``where I thought we would be.'' ``From an economic point of view we haven't sustained a huge hit,'' O'Neill said.

Black Blade: Oh really? (and I thought Robert Rubin was a buffoon).

cwa$$$$$320.5$$$$$#8478409/10/02; 21:39:38

I like gold because of the privacy that it offers.

Recently I have seen two science fiction movies that have aliens coming to earth to aquire gold. Science tells us that gold comes from the nuclear implosion of a supernova. Truly stardust, scarce and valuable.

I would like to thank all the posters here for such an enlightening forum on gold and economics.


Black BladeThe Peasants Are Revolting#8478509/10/02; 21:45:55,5309,7668,00.html


They certainly are: more shareholder initiatives getting passed this year; many proposals aimed at management. Apparently, shareholders are staging something of a palace coup at annual meetings this year. According to research conducted by the Investor Responsibility Research Center (IRRC), over 40 percent of the governance-related proposals submitted by shareholders at annual meetings this year were passed. All told, 83 out of 200 governance-related -- and owner-submitted -- proposals have been ratified, according to the study, which was published by Dow Jones Newswires?

During the annual meeting season last year, just 66 of 272 proposals received a majority vote. This year, 22 of the resolutions that received majority support drew at least 70 percent of the total vote. That's double last year's results -- and a higher percentage than in any voting season in recent memory, according to the wire service, citing an IRRC official. Of course, shareholder resolutions are not binding. In fact, management teams typically ignore the results. Still, the resolutions go on record and tend to galvanize shareholders dissent.

Black Blade: Sadly it's true that these resolutions are nonbonding even though passed by the shareholders (make that the "owners"). Typically the ruling elite and the board of directors take the Marie Antoinette attitude toward the peasants (shareholders) – "let them eat cake". In the end as we see with the aristocracy with the likes of Skilling, Fastow, Ebbers, Stewart, Saskow, etc. the peasants are likely to respond with the law and shout "off with their heads!"

The Knife9-11 Pro Forma Perceptions#8478609/10/02; 21:55:20

Well, here I go and put forth my projections for the USA in the midst of the anniversary and alerts taking place later today. I doubt that the terrorists will be active in next couple of days. What we need to be aware of is the unthinkable type of act, like what happened to the USS Cole. It was interesting that oil tankers were part of today's warning. Any new targets would have to be overseas in countries less desirable of assistance to America's interest or well-being. Hope that everything goes well...
Black BladeWhere'd Intel's earnings go? #8478709/10/02; 21:56:47

Using Intel as a case study, one investor shows how the options game inflates the bottom line.


NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - When it comes to the bickering over how to account for employee stock options, no company has its hackles up quite like Intel. Its chairman, Andy Grove, has repeatedly said that options should not detract from earnings like other forms of employee compensation. Grove has good reason for his posture: Start thinking of options as an expense and it starts to look like Intel hasn't earned nearly as much money over the past several years as investors think. And by some lights, it hasn't made any money at all.

Black Blade: Ditto for Cisco and many other high-flyers of years gone by. Where'd Intel's earnings go? Where indeed!

Warren Buffett and Alan Greenspan are just a few who advocate expensing of dividends. Though others like Sen. Joe Lieberman (D-CT)are opposed. Afterall he recieved bribes form these guys - errr, I mean "campaign contributions".

WaveriderSlingshot, Gandalf#8478809/10/02; 22:03:57

Wowsers...Gandalf, it is soooo... cool that you filed the episodes and that the Chief Editing Hobbit is polishing up the entire series! It's Slingshot's call to say Go...if not now Slingshot, then will you kindly email me the series at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. ? And hey, do you really know the ending already? Thanks Slingshot...I really do hope that one day we can all meet and raise our glasses to toast this most awesome forum! Cheers,

Black BladeMore Wall Street Job Cuts Coming #8478909/10/02; 22:09:39;jsessionid=Z0A1IVGDHV2RECRBAELCFEY?type=businessnews&StoryID=1432272


NEW YORK (Reuters) - More Wall Street layoffs are on the way, as the outlook for investment banking remains grim, Salomon Smith Barney analyst Guy Moszkowski said in a research note on Tuesday. "Firms are finally coming to terms with the fact that headcounts are still out of whack with realistically achievable amounts of business, and the market plunge of the past couple of months was the catalyst for this," Moszkowski said. The analyst said he recently met with executives at Bear Stearns Cos. Inc., Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc. and Morgan Stanley. Equity underwriting, which appeared to be enjoying a nice rebound that had built through the spring, has of course skidded to a near halt," Moszkowski said, adding that merger and acquisition activity may have bottomed, but has shown no signs of any business increase.

Black Blade: Anyone still wonder why Wall Street investment houses and bankers are working to prop up the markets? Remember when these guys are saying that there is no recession and that the market is in "recovery", they are talking their "book". They don't actually believe a word of it. They are selling a story to draw in the unsuspecting "peasants" to steal those last remaining pennies. Still, these charalatans are turning on each other and we see them cast aside "nonessential" people atop the growing "Bone Pile" (that they deny exists). Hmmm...

Gandalf the White"The Happy Birthday GOLD PRICE SETTLEMENT CONTEST" #847909/10/02; 23:08:39

UPDATE # LUCKY 13 (as of Tuesday at 2300 Denver time 9/10/02)
FYI ------ HIGH, Low and Settlement Price of GC2Z on NY COMEX:
9/3/02 $315.9 $314.1 $315.0s
9/4/02 $317.1 $313.8 $316.5s Change + $1.5
9/5/02 $320.8 $318.1 $319.8s Change + $3.3
9/6/02 $322.9 $319.8 $321.5s Change + $1.7
9/9/02 $325.5 $322.4 $322.8s Change + $1.3
9/10/02 -$321.5 $318.7 $319.4s Change - $3.4
Note that the Open Interest has INCREASED over 10K since 9/3
Listed in descending order of Price.

$$$$ 8,752.0 $$$$ The Invisible Hand (09/10/02; 20:18:10MT - msg#: 84776)

$$$$ 398.6 $$$$ Believer (09/04/02; 18:22:46MT - msg#: 84358)

$$$$ 375.0 $$$$ Henri (09/04/02; 10:58:18MT - msg#: 84326)

$$$$ 362.3 $$$$ NEMO me impune lacessit (09/04/02; 05:21:24MT - msg#: 84304)

$$$$ 354.4 $$$$ perform (09/04/02; 07:34:49MT - msg#: 84313)

$$$$ 353.4 $$$$ darkhorse (09/03/02; 20:56:04MT - msg#: 84280)

$$$$ 349.2 $$$$ mdgc (09/05/02; 15:45:42MT - msg#: 84427)

$$$$ 345.0 $$$$ Socrates964 (09/04/02; 16:11:50MT - msg#: 84344)

$$$$ 343.0 $$$$ ji (09/04/02; 21:38:27MT - msg#: 84381)

$$$$ 342.5 $$$$ gvc (09/03/02; 17:08:12MT - msg#: 84255)

$$$$ 341.7 $$$$ old gold (09/04/02; 11:40:02MT - msg#: 84330)

$$$$ 339.0 $$$$ rsjacksr (09/03/02; 22:36:21MT - msg#: 84289)

$$$$ 337.0 $$$$ Creosote (09/09/02; 22:08:29MT - msg#: 84703)

$$$$ 335.4 $$$$ Roger The Shrubber (09/05/02; 08:18:47MT - msg#: 84404)

$$$$ 334.7 $$$$ GoldCoaster (09/05/02; 21:29:56MT - msg#: 84455)

$$$$ 333.7 $$$$ Speedy (09/04/02; 19:15:01MT - msg#: 84366)

$$$$ 333.4 $$$$ Slowman (09/04/02; 20:10:11MT - msg#: 84370)

$$$$ 332.9 $$$$ SWEET 16 (9/7/02; 13:02:34MT - msg#: 84569)

$$$$ 332.5 $$$$ Hipplebeck (9/9/02; 11:52:25MT - msg#: 84676)

$$$$ 332.2 $$$$ BlackBart (9/6/02; 23:09:00MT - msg#: 84544)

$$$$ 332.0 $$$$ DOWNUNDER (9/7/02; 02:35:37MT - msg#: 84550)

$$$$ 331.3 $$$$ misetich (09/04/02; 05:28:30MT - msg#: 84307)
$$$$ 331.2 $$$$ Pippin (09/04/02; 12:50:09MT - msg#: 84335)

$$$$ 330.9 $$$$ silvester (09/10/02; 20:07:18MT - msg#: 84774)

$$$$ 330.0 $$$$ HOOSIER GOLDBUG (09/04/02; 19:11:32MT - msg#: 84365)

$$$$ 329.8 $$$$ goldenpeace (09/04/02; 11:36:15MT - msg#: 84329)

$$$$ 329.3 $$$$ mikal (09/04/02; 17:08:29MT - msg#: 84349)
$$$$ 329.2 $$$$ The Hoople (09/04/02; 12:04:30MT - msg#: 84332)

$$$$ 328.8 $$$$ Goldilocks 1 (09/09/02; 21:39:15MT - msg#: 84699)

$$$$ 328.5 $$$$ steady (09/03/02; 20:14:41MT - msg#: 84272)

$$$$ 328.1 $$$$ ha_tey_o (09/04/02; 11:15:13MT - msg#: 84327)

$$$$ 327.9 $$$$ Trapper (09/03/02; 20:12:26MT - msg#: 84271)

$$$$ 327.6 $$$$ mudr (9/6/02; 22:47:45MT - msg#: 84543)

$$$$ 327.3 $$$$ luckypierre (09/03/02; 15:20:51MT - msg#: 84244)

$$$$ 326.5 $$$$ turkey hunter (09/03/02; 18:33:51MT - msg#: 84261)

$$$$ 326.0 $$$$ White Rose (09/06/02; 08:23:51MT - msg#: 84503)

$$$$ 325.5 $$$$ Galerider (09/03/02; 20:53:27MT - msg#: 84279)

$$$$ 325.2 $$$$ The CoinGuy (09/04/02; 13:00:07MT - msg#: 84338)
$$$$ 325.1 $$$$ sangrelli (9/7/02; 16:43:48MT - msg#: 84575)

$$$$ 324.5 $$$$ Rock (09/04/02; 12:19:18MT - msg#: 84334)

$$$$ 324.1 $$$$ Gold Standard (09/04/02; 05:02:31MT - msg#: 84302)

$$$$ 323.7 $$$$ Boxman (9/4/02; 04:27:17MT - msg#: 84301)
$$$$ 323.6 $$$$ Yukon (09/08/02; 22:57:32MT - msg#: 84636)

$$$$ 323.2 $$$$ a nation of one (09/03/02; 13:55:53MT - msg#: 84229)

$$$$ 322.2 $$$$ Tommy P (09/03/02; 14:33:23MT - msg#: 84233)

$$$$ 321.9 $$$$ MoonHowler (09/04/02; 21:59:49MT - msg#: 84382)

$$$$ 321.4 $$$$ balzac (09/04/02; 17:22:15MT - msg#: 84353)

$$$$ 321.1 $$$$ The Knife (09/04/02; 16:30:43MT - msg#: 84345)
$$$$ 321.0 $$$$ Gandalf the White (09/03/02; 12:29:20MT - msg#: 84221)

$$$$ 320.5 $$$$ cwa (09/10/02; 21:39:38MT - msg#: 84784)

$$$$ 320.2 $$$$ 18K (09/03/02; 13:18:00MT - msg#: 84226)

$$$$ 320.0 $$$$ Zhisheng (09/03/02; 15:06:26MT - msg#: 84240)
$$$$ 319.9 $$$$ Draco (09/10/02; 18:38:08MT - msg#: 84763)
$$$$ 319.8 $$$$ Bound Spirit (09/03/02; 17:20:54MT - msg#: 84257)
$$$$ 319.7 $$$$ slingshot (09/03/02; 16:57:17MT - msg#: 84254)
$$$$ 319.6 $$$$ NTgeo (9/6/02; 01:56:11MT - msg#: 84477)
$$$$ 319.5 $$$$ davefinger (09/03/02; 14:52:14MT - msg#: 84235)
$$$$ 319.4 $$$$ koala bear (9/4/02; 04:08:54MT - msg#: 84299)

$$$$ 319.2 $$$$ Bulldog (09/03/02; 21:53:40MT - msg#: 84288)

$$$$ 319.0 $$$$ Just waking up (09/10/02; 13:46:21MT - msg#: 84737)

$$$$ 318.6 $$$$ Kodie (09/03/02; 12:41:26MT - msg#: 84222)

$$$$ 318.3 $$$$ Max Rabbitz (09/10/02; 16:13:39MT - msg#: 84755)

$$$$ 317.9 $$$$ VanRip (09/05/02; 12:20:50MT - msg#: 84415)

$$$$ 317.2 $$$$ Artie Farkle (09/04/02; 20:02:53MT - msg#: 84369)

$$$$ 316.8 $$$$ harryo (9/7/02; 14:38:25MT - msg#: 84571)

$$$$ 316.0 $$$$ Tevye (09/04/02; 08:02:40MT - msg#: 84316)

$$$$ 315.5 $$$$ Christian (9/6/02; 00:11:42MT - msg#: 84471)

$$$$ 314.9 $$$$ MO VER MEG (09/04/02; 07:34:44MT - msg#: 84312)

$$$$ 314.7 $$$$ seagull (09/10/02; 15:53:53MT - msg#: 84750)

$$$$ 314.5 $$$$ Frosty (09/03/02; 18:59:09MT - msg#: 84265)

$$$$ 314.0 $$$$ Flatlander (9/7/02; 07:30:20MT - msg#: 84555)

$$$$ 313.3 $$$$ Woodie (09/03/02; 23:41:11MT - msg#: 84291)

$$$$ 312.5 $$$$ SilverHoard (09/04/02; 17:01:10MT - msg#: 84347)

$$$$ 312.0 $$$$ GoldnSilver2002 (09/09/02; 23:39:52MT - msg#: 84708)

$$$$ 311.4 $$$$ De Ronin (09/04/02; 12:16:42MT - msg#: 84333)
$$$$ 311.3 $$$$ Au-some (09/09/02; 22:07:13MT - msg#: 84702)

$$$$ 310.0 $$$$ Operative (09/10/02; 14:54:15MT - msg#: 84746)

$$$$ 309.7 $$$$ HopeingII (9/6/02; 21:14:33MT - msg#: 84542)

$$$$ 308.6 $$$$ Noble1 (09/04/02; 20:25:58MT - msg#: 84371)

$$$$ 308,0 $$$$ Trurl (09/05/02; 09:33:57MT - msg#: 84408)

$$$$ 295.5 $$$$ Topaz (9/5/02; 01:41:33MT - msg#: 84389)

1) THIS Contest consists of TWO Portions --- A Price Prognostication and a Discussion Statement !
2) The Winner is the Price Guess closest to the Settlement price of the COMEX (most active) December 2002 Contract (GC2Z) on the date of Friday the 13th of September. (NOTE the LUCKY date !)
3) Price "Guesses" shall be stated in Dollars and tenths !
(Such as $543.2)
4) "Guesses" shall be SHOWN in the SUBJECT location AND enclosed in markers of "Dollar Signs"
so as to be OFFICIAL ! Such as $$$$ 543.2 $$$$
5) ONLY one "Guess" per Knight or Lady is allowed, and once that "Guess" has been "taken" -- no one can duplicate it !! FIRST COME has rights to that "Guess".
6) HOWEVER, All "Guesses" MUST be posted before the clock in Denver strikes HIGH NOON on Thursday, September 12th.
7) AND MOST IMPORTANTLY -- A short discussion paragraph of "Why gold is important to THAT PERSON as an investor/owner." This part of their entry MUST accompany their Price prognostication, OR the entry WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED!
To the person with the exact or closest "Guess" to the December ‘02 (GC2Z) SETTLEMENT price on Friday September 13th ----- an one-half ounce PURE GOLD Canadian Maple Leaf as the winning prize, with an one-tenth ounce PURE GOLD Austrian Philharmonic to BOTH the next closest guesses (runners up).
Has the LUCKY NUMBER already been chosen ?
Don't wait tooooo long as the rush is going to start soon.

BlackjackSemiconductor industry outlook deteriorating#847919/10/02; 23:18:29

Hsinchu, Taiwan, Sept. 11 (Bloomberg) -- Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world's largest supplier of made-to-order chips, said some customers asked to delay delivery on their orders as personal-computer sales stall.

The delay in shipments for orders already placed comes as the company braces for a decline in demand from the previous quarter this quarter and next, Kenneth Kin, Taiwan Semiconductor's senior vice president in charge of worldwide marketing and sales, said in an interview. Kin spoke in Yokohama where he attended a technology forum sponsored by Taiwan Semiconductor.

Kin's comments are further evidence the semiconductor industry's outlook is deteriorating. Taiwan Semiconductor's customers, a list that includes chipmakers such as Intel Corp., typically begin building inventories as early as August to prepare for the Christmas shopping season.

``The fourth quarter is going to be pretty tough for everybody,'' said Ernie Tam, who counts shares in Taiwan Semiconductor among the $2 billion he helps manage for Baring Asset Management Ltd. ``The personal computer sector appears to be weak.''

The company also counts graphics chipmaker Nvidia Corp. among its customers. Nvidia makes the graphics chip for Microsoft Corp.'s Xbox game console. Its chips are also used in personal computers to enhance graphics capabilities.

``We have seen a slowdown in overall demand,'' Kin said. ``Particularly weak is the PC industry.''
No recovery here.

BlackjackLabor problems troubling economy#847929/10/02; 23:31:25

SEATTLE, Sept 10 (Reuters) - Boeing Co.'s BA.N military helicopter factory could face a strike by 1,500 workers as early as Saturday, slowing deliveries of transport aircraft to U.S. forces, the company said on Tuesday.

Members of the United Auto Workers (UAW) Local 1069 overwhelmingly rejected Boeing's contract offer on Sunday, citing low pay raises and higher health-care costs for workers already facing layoffs at the struggling Pennsylvania unit.

"I consider that (offer) an insult and I think most of our members consider that an insult," said Local 1069 President John DeFrancisco. "For all intents and purposes, this facility will probably be on strike."

The strike could come on the same day as a possible walkout by 26,000 Boeing machinists at the company's Seattle-based jetliner unit who vote on a contract offer on Thursday and Friday that union leaders have urged them to reject.
Labor is threatening work slowdowns at west coast ports.
Could really hurt Christmas sales. Lots of labor disputes
are simmering. Mad as hell and won't take it anymore.

davefingerTo be American#847939/10/02; 23:34:17

Linked above is a posting I came across on Slashdot (yeah, yeah, give me a chance!). The topic was "How has post-9/11 legislation affected you", and the poster was responding to someone commenting on the incarceration of Jose Padilla. I can only say that I wish I had posted it myself, and that the spirit of our forefathers is not dead. Today I intend to reflect on what exactly it means to be an American, re-read the Constitution and Bill of Rights and generally give thanks to the higher PTB for the fact that I was born in the USA.

To all those who have served or died in the name of our Liberty, I thank you. May the current generations be brave enough and wise enough to not only remember, but follow, your example. Especially in this time that so tries our resolve, weakened as it is by so many years of the prosperity you bought us with your lives.

Eternal vigilance, friends.

Black BladeHong Kong Debt Collectors Ruthless #847949/10/02; 23:47:24


First came several dozen annoying phone calls. The next day, the anonymous debt collector became more persistent, phoning Albert Ho's law firm more than 300 times to scream obscenities, play pornographic tapes or just stay silently on the line. On the third day, the number of calls shot up to 687. "It was extremely disturbing," said Ho. "It jammed the normal calls, keeping my clients waiting and affecting my business." And Ho wasn't even the target. The husband of an employee had gone bankrupt, leaving his office at the mercy of Hong Kong's often unscrupulous debt collectors, who have gone on a rampage as the economy worsens and bad loans multiply. Collectors have been known to throw snakes, or a swarm of grasshoppers into an apartment to hasten debt repayment, or to hang the carcasses of dogs and cats outside. Bankrupt property dealer Alan Chan recalled foul-mouthed debt collectors pestering him outside his home and office and sending threatening letters containing fake paper money from the "Bank of Hell."

Black Blade: Very strange.

goldquest$$$$321.30$$$$#847959/11/02; 00:01:1