USAGOLD Gold Discussion Forum Archive

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Black BladeIdaho Kids, Holed Up at Home, Resist Police#551056/1/01; 00:23:00

SANDPOINT, Idaho (Reuters) - Police played a waiting game on Thursday morning, hoping that six children holed up in their rural home for two days would break their silence and talk to authorities offering help, a Sandpoint officer said. Police overnight kept a vigil outside the house on a dirt road in a hamlet near Sandpoint in northern Idaho, and would try again to end the standoff with the six McGuckin children, aged 8 to 16, that began on Tuesday, an officer said early on Thursday. With their father recently dead from an illness and their mother in police custody, the children ignored officers' attempts to negotiate with them on Wednesday, instead unleashing several ``vicious'' dogs on the police, the officer said.

Black Blade: A repeat of Ruby Ridge? Actually Sandpoint is only a few miles south of Naples, Idaho (also known nationally as Ruby Ridge). Law enforcement officers had better be careful as people in this part of the country raise their families to be self reliant. I suspect that these "kids" are crack shots and if the police make an assault, there could be several fatalities among the law enforcement officers ranks. The people in these communities are not a bunch of timid urban pansies. I have worked in this part of Idaho before and there is a genuine hatred of government and a very strong determined belief in self reliance (some say survivalist). I'm sure that they can do fend for themselves quite well without big brothers guiding Iron Fist. Why is the government so intent on "helping" those who don't want or need their help? This situation could spiral out of control quite easily. This kind of heavy handed response set off the likes of Timothy McVeigh.

TEXJust lookin around#551066/1/01; 00:50:26

It the first of the month and I'm just surfacing for a little air. Gotta go back to the depths and lurk some more.
Peter AsherImagine#551076/1/01; 00:55:04

@ Journeyman & JMB; & All Goldhearts

JMB. The POG I'm saying would step out of the equation is the fluctuation caused by supply and demand set up because gold is not generally accepted as direct payment. If a gold holder must ‘sell’ his gold in order to make a purchase, he must deal in a gold ‘market place’. ‘Currency holders’ in effect are ‘middlemen’ in a transaction between the gold holder and the owner of his intended acquisition. So, adding to this, Sir Journeyman's "lead to this very eventuality (gold prices for things) without any government participation at all." It would be the participation of individuals by individual decision. This could go way beyond E-gold and other transactional vias. People could simply begin to request gold for major items that they put up for sale.

Using your tape deck, CD player or you mind, put on John Lennon singing "Imagine all the people" thinking- like- we do; woo-hoo, hoo!

---Imagine real estate adds saying Beautiful Waterfront Home, 5000 square ft. of luxury; 4000, oz, .999 au: firm. Or ‘99 Mecedes SLXXX, mint, 200 oz au, hard metal only!

It would actually be a powerful market positioning action. It would get your sale and Gold talked about, It would make Gold popular! It wouldn't cost anything. It would just be a decision of gold advocates to practice what they preach. Imagine the buyer, calling on the ad, saying "what do I do if gold goes up before we close," You say, "maybe you should acquire it now and lock in the value of the purchase."

If this became a trend, gold would be in high demand, if the only way people could obtain certain things was to pay in gold, the people who wanted those things would become ‘liquid’ in gold. Think about it! Is it weird; or really feasible?

It occurs to me that an argument could be brought forth that there will always be a commodity ‘take off’ of gold as a currency; for jewelry or industrial uses, and numismatic coins would trade externally to ‘Free-Gold." Of course, but at what percentage of above ground inventory and so what? On a small scale analogy, I recall, in the fifties, (In the Army, I think it was) guys would go around for days with a silver half (or full) dollar, constantly hammering around the edge with the handle end of a table knife until they pounded the flange into the size of a finger ring, then they'd drill out the center and wear it. 50 cents, out of circulation!

When Robin read my "Rather then gold being an asset form of money substitute, money would be a form of gold substitute." she instantly said "like it originally was!" Of course; but I had missed that.

Over to you guys ---P.

Peter Asherauspec (05/31/01; 21:23:49MT msg#: 55097)#551086/1/01; 01:19:29

Re <<<<You know I've asked many Forum posters how they came up with their various handles, but seemed to have overlooked you in this process. Any explanations for us??>>> Sure; if my long departed mother read my posts in her current life, I wanted her to be able to know her kid had finally learned to spell. (She left before they invented Word Perfect).

So, now that I've answered your serious question lets talk about credit creation gold, I think Rich Powell has it down flat <G>. It's some kind of inflated appraisal ‘creating’ 10 X spending power in fiat, ergo a 10% gold backed credit line. But that's just a guess, I don't know what creation Christian has created in his concept/claim of credit creation gold.

The rest of your post I'll answer by E-mail (;-)

Peter Asherbeesting (05/31/01; 21:38:28MT - msg#: 55098)#551096/1/01; 01:31:54

JMB (5/31/01; 22:01:00MT - msg#: 55101)

Thank you, Gentlemen, for the ‘understanding’ of what I'm looking at.

Thank you also for the rather profound response in nominating and seconding the post.

I hope what I just put up in elaboration didn't muddy the waters. --P

UsulCreative destruction#551106/1/01; 01:53:07

Joseph Schumpeter once described a process that he called "creative destruction" in the American economy.

undergang (Norwegian) --> Doom (

Greenspan has referred to this concept in his speeches.

Greenspan 0n SS & Creative Destruction

LafisrapGATA's take on COMEX June stoppers#551116/1/01; 02:06:37

Just passing this along for the benefit of those who do not already subscribe to GATA's email list.

* JP Morgan/Chase stopped the June gold deliveries. Of
the 3,200 contacts delivered today, Morgan took 1,566
of them. Carr futures stopped 669 contracts. Since Carr
will cease doing business on Comex soon, my guess is
that they will give up the gold to Morgan. Another
surprise was that the Bank of Nova Scotia delivered a
sizeable 2,949 contacts of the 3,200 hundred. They had
been the big takers (stoppers) the past few deliveries.
As of two weeks ago they were expected to do so again.

What happened? I will never know for sure, but my guess
is that a deal was struck. Scotia was let in on what
the Gold Cartel was going to do to bomb the gold price
and was allowed to sell June futures at much higher
prices. In return for that inside information, Scotia
was to deliver the gold to Morgan.

Morgan wants the gold to cover its shorts or to have
deliverable Comex gold in house to prevent squeezes in
the coming delivery months as their con game is
unwound. I find it interesting that Goldman Sachs was
the big gold stopper in August 1999, just prior to the
Washington Agreement.

working-kirkLosing money because of the price of gold#551126/1/01; 02:12:38

Golden Truth (05/31/01; 13:10:48MT - msg#: 55049)

I think everyone here on this forum because we are hard gold bugs has lost money due to the price of gold. First I can give you several small comforts

First as much money as gold has lost, it is nowhere near the percentages as the loss due to the stock market tumble starting in April of 2000

Second, have no doubt gold will show real gains. I don't know if $30,000 an ounce is possible but that is because I feel the government will outlaw gold, gold shares and any other item that could reflect on the true nature of inflation. After all according to the government gold is still only worth $42.00

Third History and the truth are on the side of gold rising.
Gold has a history of 6,000 years I don't know how long you been waiting, Let's say 5 years at the most. That is a short period. The imbalances and trouble with gold were visable 30 years or so ago. May I suggest a book by Robert Ringer The coming collapse of Western Civilization. It was written in 1980 He suggested getting into gold then. The thing was he knew it was early and said he didn't know when gold would finally rise but it was inevitable. He couldn't make a prediction because the government would have almost endless schemes to keep the game of debt and inflation going. There were other writers of the same period telling the same thing. Meanwhile we have had endless financal crisises each worse then the next. I remember the first big one The stock market crash in 87. I was working in a stock company as a computer operator but we share space with
the back room. Watching the crisis first hand I know just how close we came to losing it then. And since each crisis has been worse I wonder how we are managing to still survive. Note, the problems that caused that first crisis was never fix, just treated enough to not explode but that is not to say it couldn't explode later.

It is time when gold is losing money you have to think: Why did you buy gold in the first place? Most here from what I can tell buy for one of two reasons. They either know history or they understand how gold and freedom are linked. They don't buy to make a quick buck. Sure, all of us would like to see the price shoot for the moon but I think that is due to the very human need of validation. It would make the wait and our opinions on gold worthwhile. But I think validation is the one thing that will never happen. While
we wait for the explosion we are lonely because we are far apart from the crowd. If the price does explode I think we will be vilified as profiteer or gold hoarders or bad mouth in some way so we are blamed for the problem. Look at the way California is bad mouthing and threatening energy producers. But they did not cause the problem. And just like the self destruction of paper money is certain to happen (No paper money historically has escaped it final fate) we who are buying gold did not cause the problem.

It is hard to take a loss as we are doing. So what do I suggest.

If you are really upset how much gold has lost in price, you can ignore history and take the loss. At least be happy
you didn't lose as much as someone who has invested in dot-com.

However I doubt many on this forum will do that. We have been harden by the price of gold setback. In that case you
may want to join will me. Like you, I had some gold but due to hardship was forced to sell at the all time low. Does that make me mad? YOU BET! However, instead of being pissed off at another poster I plan revenge in another way. The truth will come out. It always does. When it does there will be tons of class action lawsuit. I plan to be in them and I plan to recover my losses. I grew up in the bad side of town. When you lose money then, you take it out of somebody's hide. The powers has be owes me a lots and I plan to hurt them plenty with a lawsuit. So you can join me in kicking their butts. Sue along with me and other working class stiffs.

Other options to make it easier to swallow the loss. Since the price is at an all time loss, buy the dips. Actually
I hope the gold goons do manage to hold the lid down a little longer. If the price takes off , I would have been right but the price managed to take off without my being on board. It takes me several months to save the money to buy one gold coin. I want time to rebuild my stash. If I can
rebuild my stash, maybe I won't have to hope I can recover damages in a lawsuit.

Perhaps other poster have suggest to make the waiting easiler and having to take the loss.

> To F.O.A aka T.G
> I have a question for you. It has now been years since
> your GRANDIOSE claims of paper gold burning and $30,000/oz > and hyperinflation and EURO dollar
> will be the greatest thing since sliced bread commentary!

> I have lost nothing but "MONEY" yes its paper, but last
> time I checked it buys gold. What ever happened to you
> will be ahead buying gold vs options or
> shares.

> I vividly remember you saying gold (physical)would out
> perform all "PAPER". Well foa/tg you have been dead wrong!

> Please show me where I,am wrong??? I bought at $292/oz and > where are we now? The two or three times physical gold has > gone up, it wasn't worth the time
> or the gas to go sell any and even then, there was no
> increase in my investment???

Old YellerThoughts from someone who's been watching since early gold pool days#551136/1/01; 02:28:09

Quote from Chairman David Reed of CIBC Eyres Reed

"In my time following gold markets and it's been nearly forty years,I have never seen that sort of volatility.It was either pushed up or it was pushed down.I don't think there is a man on earth who could tell me what happened."

Pushed up or pushed down?Probably an intensely complex combination of the two,thats my .02 worth,anyway.That was pretty crazy stuff.

Interesting,presumably this man has seen most of the modern era of gold "management",or whatever you would prefer to call it.I find the last sentence challenging,is there a man or woman on this board who knows the answer,or will we ever know?

Thanks to LiONS bREATH at Kitco for the link.

Netking; 02:37:40

SILVER - The hi tech metal of the future. . . .

. . . or the most overlooked opportunity for wealth?

***Mr James R.Cook confirms the prospects for silver

". . . Truly outstanding profit opportunities occur only rarely. They generally come about when two or more bullish factors converge. The better they are, the more infrequent they are. The highest potential for profit exists when a number of primary causes come together as is the case with silver today. At least eight major bullish factors have converged to set the stage for a possible percentage gain of extraordinary magnitude. There has never been anything like it with any other commodity or asset in history

On top of a budding silver supply crisis you have a complicated silver leasing and short selling strategy. Hundreds of millions of ounces of silver have been borrowed and sold. That silver must be repaid out of silver stocks that don't currently exist. If it's paid back from newly mined silver, then the industrial users won't get the silver they need and absolutely must have. You couldn't dream up a more bullish set of circumstances. In addition, hundreds of millions of ounces of silver have been sold on paper by the big hedge funds. That paper silver must also be repurchased. Mind you, this astonishing set of circumstances exists on top of the extraordinarily bullish supply and demand fundamentals which, by themselves, are compelling reasons to own silver. When taken in total, the case for silver to appreciate may be the strongest for any asset ever. It's hard to grasp completely just how bullish all these factors are. . ."

NetkingSir Golden Truth#551156/1/01; 02:55:51

GT(55049)Re: Losing money because of the price of gold.

We often know what will happen with PM's & the investment markets but not always exactly WHEN it will come into manifestation. The wisdom on this forum & the opinions shared are as good as you will get anywhere, probably better. At the end of the day we do need to be accountable to ourselves, the buck stops with us. It's not good to overburden your current resources when you take a short or long term investment position. . . otherwise the prize aint worth the "price". It's best to maintain balance, to have diversity and take time to "smell the roses on the way". Always a good to pre check decisions based on different potential scenarios. All the best to you Sir, NK.

Belgian" THANK YOU" Sir Miner49er for your post 55067 !!!#551166/1/01; 03:03:53

Very deep, precise, to the (reality) point and correctly nuanced ! Wished, I had the (language) ability to elaborate on what I'm reading between your lines. Perhaps Aus(in)spec(tor) might put his teeth in this hot chocolate.
Thank you Sir Miner49er, for this jewel in CPM forum-crown.

ChristianKre-iern Undergang by Alan Greenspan#551176/1/01; 05:13:32

Alan wrote this book before he wrote the book titled Gold and Economic Freedom. Kre-ieren to me has two meanings - Create or Creative and undergang means doom or destruction. --------------------------- The most powerful trend in financial market today is the monetization of tangible assets, whether it be minerals, lumber, farm commodities or real estate like land, homes or industrial buildings to create financial instruments called derivatives. The prolification of hedge funds is a testament to the global non-investment grade financial spree. Naked short selling of minerals, lumber and farm commodity prices benefit hedge funds for it them a risk free way to make billions by leasing or lend by means of futures contract. The owners of the paper trade make the profits - while the owners of the physical is forced to take the loss. All this is possible for direct and indirect laws or subsidies ordinary citizens effectively guarantee the banking systems balance sheet.------------------------------------- There is three gold prices 1=commodity paper trade, 2=BIS price to settle trade between countries ($540) 3=LBMA price of deliverable credit creation gold based on banks reserve requirements. If the central banks reserve requirements were 10% that would mean credit creation price would be 10 times commodity price. If the central banks reserve requirements were 5% that would mean credit price is 20 times commodity price. Why In gods name can we the ordinary people not do the same thing. The term commodity gold should mean physical gold but instead it means paper gold. Why must commodities be traded as paper markets? No commodities are allowed to show a true supply and demand picture. Producers nor investors are allowed to sell at the credit creation level. We are second class citizens. We, we, us, you and me got to do something to help ourselves. We got to get away from financial sevtitution to the upper class. We got to do it and not just talk about it. We can moan and groan thill all hell freezes over but to get something done we got to do it.......!!!!!!!!!!
SteveHSome golden tidbits from LBMA conference paper by Herve Ferhani of the Bank #551186/1/01; 05:15:50


Ladies and Gentlemen, it is a great pleasure for me to have a chance to visit this beautiful country. I would especially like to thank the organisers of the conference for giving me the opportunity to present our view of the gold market in front of such a knowledgeable audience. Some of you might wonder what a Central Banker is doing in a session devoted to bullion banking. I must confess I myself had a similar reaction at the outset. Nevertheless I think there is a case for a Central Banker to address a bullion banking audience : bullion banks after all make a living out of meeting the supposedly complementary needs of Central Bankers, at least of those who lend Gold, and those of hedgers, who borrow it. As a cautious and rather conservative Central Banker, I thought it might be of interest to express our views, even or maybe mostly if some of you might find these somewhat controversial. Recent developments in the market have been unusual and noteworthy enough for all of us to devote some time to trying to assess the rationality behind the change experienced in market conditions.The market had already displayed some signs of nervousness in the immediate aftermath of the announcement of the Central Bank Gold Agreement in September 1999, but things returned fairly quickly to « normal », if one can use such a word for a market which has been putting in such a lacklustre performance for about two decades. As an introduction to this presentation. I would like to start with a few words on the types of changes we have witnessed before presenting some hypothesis as to what might have generated this change.
¨Major Changes in the market ? As you notice, I cautiously use a question mark, as it might be too early to tell whether these are long lasting changes or rather, as I am inclined to think, adjustments in response to a constantly evolving environment. The main features of recent developments are the following :
¨Lease rates volatility ;
¨A bearish trend (at least in US$ terms, but more on that later)
¨Some adverse consequences for market participants with the return of credit risk concerns
¨Market liquidity occasionnally drying up. The spikes in lease rates can mainly be attributed to the difficulty in refinancing borrowings as existing funding expired. : 1 month rates peaked at over 6% earlier this year and even 3 month rates shot up as high as more than 3,1/2%. Conditions have eased since then, but rates remain notably higher than before.
A review of changes in the market must begin with a few words about the Central Bank Gold Agreement. This has been much discussed already but I think it is a testimony of the official sector's responsible attitude towards the market. It certainly represents a tangible mark of the long term commitment of the signatories to the gold market, irrespective of their individual policy. There is a wide diversity of attitudes regarding the gold market among the signatories of the CBGA. Some are active market participants, others take a more long term view. This diversity shows that this agreement should definitely not be considered as a sellers’ or lenders’ cartel. Each signatory has its own policy on the gold market. What they all have in common is an interest in making sure this market is as efficient as possible. This, in itself, is in the interest of all market participants, whatever their own priorities as sellers or buyers.

Analysing the recent bouts of lease rates volatility, we will try to derive some useful conclusions as far as the structure and functionning of the market are concerned. Reference will be made in particular to the fact that the sudden spikes of lease rates did not spill over into the spot market, where price action remained relatively quiet.

That will lead us to spend some time on price developments. We will try to see why those lease rate increases occured in a bearish market, although this should be qualified somewhat : in US$ terms we are faced with a bearish market, but not in other currencies.

The Central Bank Gold Agreement

¨The salient features of this agreement are its comprehensive reach, and the elements of transparency and predictability it brings to the market.

¨The agreement has comprehensive reach in terms of products and participants alike.

¨In terms of products : The agreement covers all signatories Central Banks activities in the gold market, i .e. selling, lending and derivatives. The aim is to smooth out the activities in all market segments, either at the level already reached (lending and derivatives) or at a level deemed appropriate to preserve orderly market conditions. (400 tons sold per year over the 5 years of the agreement).

¨In terms of participants : The 11 original EMU members as well as the ECB, the UK, Sweden and Switzerland have signed the agreement. Collectively, they hold 16000 tonnes, i.e. nearly 50% of the world's official sector holdings. Some major holders such as the U.S. and Japan, without being party to the agreement, are unlikely to behave differently and other countries are considered by some market participants as having ruled out gold sales. Altogether, it has been argued that up to 85% of official gold holdings were more or less affected by the terms of the agreement.

¨In our view the CBGA has brought much needed transparency and predictability to the marketplace as far as Central Banks’behaviour is concerned.
¨Transparency : The gold market has traditionally been a rather opaque one where the official sector in particular never commented on its intentions or its policy. Central Banks in general would almost never issue a statement regarding their policy on gold, not until after the fact anyway . The market would find out ex post, if at all, about transactions. The official statement of September 1999 marks a significant departure from this tradition. Before that, the opacity of the market was such that anything was deemed possible. Not anymore.
¨Predictability : Maybe more than transparency, predictability of behaviour of the official sector brings benefits to all. From this standpoint, the agreement significantly increases market participants visibility.
¨The agreement has a 5 year duration ;
¨The yearly amount of sales is public ;
¨The agreement provides for a stable amount of lending.

But then, if everything is so ideal, why have we experienced such volatility lately ?.

Lease rates volatility was so high indeed recently that it prompted some to question the liquidity of the market. To quote one market participant, « such a squeeze defies logic ». Our view is that what we experienced was some form of adjustment to a constantly changing environment which might indeed be far reaching. Among the major changes that the market had to adjust to, the restructuring of the financial industry stands out as an important factor.
üThe concentration of market makers has lead to significantly fewer top tier institutions.

üTo some extent, this has resulted in what could be viewed as market fragmentation with different classes of intermediaries and borrowers. Marginal players can only find funding at a price that fully factors in credit risk considerations, and this might have been one of the contributing factors behind the skyrocketing lease rates lately.
¨Nevertheless, liquidity is still there : The amounts available for lending have somehow been capped by the September agreement, but definitely not cut. My understanding is that lenders have little or no incentive to restrict their activity in an environment where lending cannot in any case be increased.
¨Still, the illusion of unlimited liquidity has dissipated. The cap on lending does impact activity : the market probably cannot accomodate the double digit progression of lending of years past. Recent estimates expect a single digit progression in 2000, this activity obviously emanating from non signatories. This is a marked departure from what the market experienced over the last decade : indeed, over that period, official lending grew more than fivefold, starting at 900 tonnes in 1990 to reach 4830 tonnes at the end of last year. In parallel , the overall net short position of the market is estimated to have increased correspondingly, so by 400 tonnes yearly.
¨Yield curve twists : There has been no parallel shift of the yield curve. The front end came under severe upward pressure at a time where long term rates experienced an opposite move. Investors apparently moved further out on the curve in pursuit of yield. If more long term lending occured, then less short term liquidity became available : it's a finite world out there ! This is yet another exemple of adjustment to a changing environment. Some hinted that certain lenders increased tenor and reduced amounts. Increased tenor implies higher credit risk concerns, hence a concentration of lending among higher rated institutions and less access to liquidity for second tier institutions.
What was somewhat unusual though was that lease rate volatility coexisted with rather sluggish price action on the spot market.

Price Behavior was in a way remarkable precisely because so little happened on the spot side as lease rates gyrated wildly, somewhat differently from what happened right after the CBGA was published.

¨A number of factors are at work which could explain that despite the squeeze on the lease market, the spot market remains lacklustre. It has become almost trivial to say that the gold market has been bearish for an extended period of time. Let us have a detailed look at some of the factors behind the price action, focusing on major classes of market participants, namely producers, the official sector and private investors.
¨On the producer side, it is not self-evident that current market conditions should be viewed as negative. The conjunction of technological progress and exchange rate fluctuations has allowed production to be profitable at previously unattractive US$ price levels.
¨Increased production has contributed to the flat gold price : production is estimated to have reached 2.000 to 2.500 tons a year for the past 10 years, adding about 20 % to total stock holdings (140.000 tons in 99). Technological progress has significantly boosted production capacity. This obviously contributes to the changing economics of the gold market. Similarly, 80 % of total gold held today was mined during the 20th century and 1/3 of above ground stocks has been produced in the last 30 years.
In addition, exchange rate fluctuations have a tremendous impact on the cost structure and profitability of production facilities. Gold mining is an industry with local currency denominated costs and US$ denominated revenues. From this standpoint, one can say that there is not just one gold price, but many. (Incidentally, this is true for consumers as well : gold was an attractive hedge for rupiah based investors in the aftermath of the Asian crisis.) Therefore, the idea of a bear market in gold has to be qualified. In local currencies, gold has in some cases behaved very differently from the picture we might have in mind.
Another factor explaining the lacklustre performance of gold in dollar terms obviously has to do with demand factors : One of the most important such factor in my view is that we live in a world where positive real interest rates prevail. This is reflected in the sluggish performance of most commodities (with obvious exceptions such as Palladium and Platinum).
Gold is a currency hedge as well : The (admittedly not perfect) negative correlation between gold and the US$ means that part of the demand for Gold has to do with its role as a currency hedge. Hedge against US$ weakness for dollar based investors, hedge against local currency weakness for others as Gold is quoted in US$…(see € based investors). True , this could be qualified somewhat since this source of demand works only if it is not impeded by other factors as stated in this year's GFMS report. In particular, it has not proven true for yen based investors lately. I think it nevertheless remains an important determinant of demand. It can indeed turn into a determinant of supply : this is what happened this year as far as European investors. There has been a massive private sector disinvestment : 291 T in 2000 (3rd highest level in 10 years, 471 T swing from previous year). It is to a large extent explained by the hedging value of gold for European investors. Since January 1999, gold lost about 10% in $ terms but gained about 20% in € terms. 2000 was not a bad year for European investors to cash in some profits. This explains part of this private sector disinvestment.

·So, the question is « how can we reconcile this sluggish price action and lease rates spikes ? ». I think this can only be done if we analyse the conditions under which the lease market has developed over the years and the way in which it traditionally reached equilibrium.

The relationship between Central Bankers and producers can be described to some extent as some kind of Competition/Cooperation. To some extent, this relationship takes a new dimension since the CBGA : up to then, Central Bankers (or some of them…) lent Gold, providing liquidity to hedgers. Case of cooperation with the benefit of forward selling for the miners and a modest yield for the Central Bankers. Essentially Central Bankers were providing cheap funding to the mining industry, 1% or so yearly. This allowed miners to hedge their exposure to gold prices, but also, by taking advantage of the contango, to profitably fund projects which would not have been otherwise considered economically viable.
From this standpoint, it is worth noting that the Gold market is a rare example of a market where the contango situation is almost permanent, ensuring that the forward price remains systematically above the spot price at maturity. (Charts of commodities and currencies). As a result of this, there is a systematic bias in the market to the benefit of short sellers and to the detriment of gold holders. On a long term basis and with only short lived exceptions, short positions have proved profitable. There are two ways to look at this situation. One is to focus on fundamentals and explain the bearish trend by general economic reasons such as low inflation, "commoditization" of Gold which would supposedly lose its monetary appeal etc… This in my view only covers part of the issue. In fact, looking at the various financial assets, it is clear that there are situations of protracted bear markets. But as a general rule, market equilibrium requires that depreciating assets carry high (or relatively high) interest rates. This is obvious for currencies, where the level of interest rates is one of the most potent tools at the disposal of the Central Bank in its task to defend a currency. This is true on securities markets as well, where the existence of a short position on a given security implies that this security becomes expensive to borrow. It has not been the case for Gold, where a persistent bearish trend has indeed coexisted with very low interest rates. The alleged reason for this peculiarity is the existence of above ground stocks, and more specifically Central Banks holdings. This again is only part of the explanation. The full story is that lenders have been ready to accept very low yields on their Gold claims despite the fact that Gold was experiencing a bear market. They accepted these low yields because a) they felt they had no other alternative besides not lending and b) Central Bankers tend to be if not price (or yield) insensitive, at least less sensitive than other market participants.
This situation may have changed since September 99. It might be a case of "No more Mr Nice Guy" : the signatories won't be providing fresh liquidity, but will be selling about 400 tonnes each year. That is 400 tonnes which won't be available on the lease market anymore. They will undoubtedly be replaced by Gold not lent up to then, since I don't think any of the CBGA's signatories was lending its entire holdings. There is therefore no reason to expect a scaleback of official Gold lent. But at the same time, one should definitely not expect the lease market to continue developing at the pace experienced in the last few years. From his standpoint, I think it is fair to say that the illusion of unlimited liquidity has been dispelled. In all cases, it does not seem unreasonable to assume that official Gold sold yearly was in most cases previously lent, since there is a kind of natural progression in the attitude of Central Banks vis à vis Gold, from "diehard holders" to lenders first and to sellers eventually. From this standpoint, one can assume that there must be some relationship-certainly not one to one, but some kind of a relationship nevertheless- between further sales and reduced lending.
So the question now is "How much Gold remains available for fresh lending?" I will rely here on the estimates of our good friends from GFMS as they appear on their "Gold Survey 2001" (Chap.5, pp51 et ss). According to these figures, gold already lent amounts to approximately 4800 tonnes, and of the 34800 tonnes of official holdings, only an equivalent amount to the one already lent (so roughly 4800 tonnes) would still be available. So, maybe Gold bears should not feel overly concerned by the impact of the European Agreement on the lease market after all? Another 4800 tonnes of liquidity available, that's 100% more compared to the current situation, so why worry?
I do think that some caution is mandated here. One can wonder whether fresh liquidity will be as forthcoming as it has been up to now. There is a markedly different attitude as to Gold depending on the main motive from holding it. There is a difference between what I would call Policy held Gold and Portfolio held Gold.
Why do inflation fighters (Central Banks) hold Gold (essentially an inflation hedge)?
üHistorically, Gold was the 0% asset counterparty of banknotes, a 0% liability. Gold holdings meant that paper money was as good as gold. Today, paper money is only as good as the credit extended to the economy. Indeed, the existence of a 0% liability (Banknotes) explains that Central Banks can afford to hold Gold, which yields nothing, and partly explains their yield/price insensitivity.
üThey want to be perceived as the anchor of the system (No paper money).
üAs an insurance policy against a major dysfunctionning of the Global Financial System. Somewhat irreverently, one could say that they hold Gold because they don't believe in themselves…or, rather, as Gold is held as a substitute to reserve currencies, because they don't believe in the reserve currency issuer capacity (or willingness) to fight inflation.
üAs a war Chest (if the worst comes to the worst).

These are mostly «policy oriented » reasons. These are essentially the reasons why large countries hold gold. Gold held for those reasons is generally covered by the CBGA, or unlikely to be managed differently from « CBGA gold » . I am alluding here to gold held by the U.S., Japan or the IMF. This makes up for the bulk of official gold, roughly 30000 tonnes. There remains the 4800 tonnes presumed to be still available for lending, namely the « portfolio held gold ».
These 4800t of extra liquidity may in our view be more price/yield sensitive than European/Japanese/US/IMF Gold. This liquidity might only come at a price. Should the Bear market persist, these gold holders might react more like other asset holders, i.e. only lend if the yield level compensates for the possible price depreciation. Somewhat differently from policy guided holders, they will have an alternative : bail out and sell! The fact that these holdings are not policy guided implies that the owners have more options.
We used to live in a world where the marginal lenders had the choice between lending or doing nothing. As a result, they tended to lend. Post September 99, the marginal lenders might not be policy oriented anymore, since policy oriented holders are either covered by the September agreement (the signatories) or unlikely to start lending (US/Japan/IMF). These marginal lenders now have the choice between lending and selling. Should this be indeed the case, the end result is that the lease market cannot rely on additional "price/yield insensitive" supply. Lease rates have to move up for the market to reach equilibrium. If this line of reasoning is indeed valid, and I would stress these last words since I offer it as a hypothesis, then it might explain the unusual combination of higher lease rates and lower spot rates which we experienced lately.

Ladies and Gentlemen, as every self respecting Central Banker, I would end with a few words of caution : The Gold market remains driven by the fundamentals and all factors described here are only relevant as far as the way in which the market adjusts to the fundamentals. None of them per se explains the major trend experienced by the market. At the end of the day, we are in a bear market because inflation is absent and real interest rates are positive.
Nevertheless, these factors do have significant consequences as far as the functionning of the market. In particular, if these hypotheses are verified and maginal liquidity now comes only at a price, then the gold market might indeed « normalize » somewhat and lease rates might experience more frequent adjustments in conjunction with market participants price expectations. If that indeed is the case, then maybe the days of the persistant and substantial contango are numbered ?

lamprey_65Arizona Blackouts?#5511906/01/01; 06:11:56

How the heck did I manage to find this before Black Blade? (Or did I?) ;-)
JCTexJMB (05/31/01; 19:44:43MT - msg#: 55085)#5512006/01/01; 06:19:11

Actually I am a pussy-cat, and usually just an old fool. I wasn't advocating their castration, I was in awe of how smoothly, quietly, and effectively Reg Howe had done it!!

His qualified Opposition was IMHO a real piece of art. The violence of what he said was wrapped in such smooth, pretty wrapping paper.

I have met Murphy and spent a little time with him; he is an extremely smart, and very nice guy. He is also one pissed off Irishman that is dedicated to seeing this manipulation ended. He has been demonized [very unfairly, I must add] by the cartel and their press.

Castration?....too good for them, but I think a sudden, and permanant run to $1,000+ would be a good beginning.

JourneymanCan't do - - - - @Black Blade, ALL#5512106/01/01; 07:53:47

"Not that I choose to pick on Democrats as I am neither conservative or liberal, but sometimes one has to question the intelligence of these legislators .... Why ask OPEC to kick up production? We simply can't process any more oil. ... The bottlenecks are in refining and pipeline capacity. These budding rocket scientists really don't have a clue and that too is why the energy crisis will not be resolved in the next several decades." -Black Blade (5/31/01; msg#: 55104)

Can't do - - teach. Can't teach - - - legislate.


uponroofMacquaries Report on what just happened and what to expect-(AUDIO)#5512206/01/01; 07:55:21

Aussie penal colony of the LBMA? Old traditions die hard.

5 minutes of discussion on the volatility last week, why the breakdown, and what to expect. 'Net congestion' may distort the sound. Tests of 260 then 250 predicted. Long term 275+-.

This didn't help.......

SNB GOLD: Swiss gold reserves down 100.2 mln Sfr to 33.655 bln

Zurich, June 1 (BridgeNews) - The Swiss National Bank sold 100.2 million Swiss francs' worth of its gold reserves in the final 11 days of May, it said Friday. This is equivalent to nearly 7 tonnes, and brings the total of its planned third-tranche sale quota of 100 tonnes by end-September to around 37 tonnes. ( Story .11909 )

"a privatione ad habitum non datur regressus—from privation to possession there is no return"........and may those who pour out their gold live to regret their path of no return.

Have a great day!

uponroofMacquaries Report on what just happened and what to expect-(AUDIO)#5512306/01/01; 08:00:57

Click 'mining news' in the left collum, then Macquarie's report. Audio, about 5 minutes.
MoutainGoldObservations from the Trading Trenches....#5512406/01/01; 08:20:18

Here's how the Bush tax cut goes:
Single $300
Joint $600
Voted Bush $1000
Voted Gore $ 20

The US economy is like a Battleship. once it turns its stays turned for awhile...recession is here to stay for some time.

Manufacturing sector down it the USDollar strength? Is it cheap foreign labor? If you do not produce something, who services it and sells it?

The "keep it simple" movement may destroy rampant consumerism. This could cause a depression! FED says buy, buy buy anything! Yea with their money!

Gold and Silver absolute screaming buys for the long pull...2 months??? No, next 5 years. No one is a long term investor anymore. Went out with hard work and real values.

My Gold philososphy is twofold. As a trader, it offers great wealth building opportunity. Gold also represents honest money for free people. It is despised by political "elites" since they can not print it. Gold will come back strong exerting its economic discipline. It always has and always will. The longer it is surpressed the bigger Gold's power. Before I meet my maker, I'll see Gold between $2000 to $5000 an oz!!

Later....good luck all. IMHO

JourneymanImagine @Peter Asher #55107, ALL#5512506/01/01; 08:51:58

Hi Sir Peter!

When I first read your "Imagine" suggestion (especially your reference to the song) I got this funny feeling. I thought subliminally something like, "J-man, you're really WAY out there. Such a thing could NEVER happen. Yur a-dreamin."

Then I remembered Vegas in the early 80's inflation. A business that sold household appliances and TVs and such took out a full-page ad in the Sun (now defunct) or was it the RJ (Review Journal) giving prices for it's products in paper dollars OR silver dollars! I beleive the business was Bowmer & Berry Showcase, if I remember correctly.

I have one of those tear-sheets somewhere. They were selling a color TV, paper dollar value about $300, for $15 silver dollars. Similar spreads for refers, washers, etc. I checked them out, and they were serious.

It's not so hard to Imagine afterall!


gePeter Asher msg#: 55076#5512606/01/01; 09:19:13

Peter Asher says; "Now if Gold were truly "Free", it would be another international currency, backed not by an economy, but by what it would buy. It would seem then, that a true gold standard could only exist if all things were priced in gold."

--------- How true! Best regards.

auspecCredit Creation Gold- Others on the Trail#5512706/01/01; 09:34:17

This was picked up from today's postings at EagleRanch. USAGOLD posters are quoted and ideas are expanded upon these posts:
Anon_1 Credit Creation Gold and Silver?
Posted by: AuAg {this guy is a real ding-bat-- Ha!}
Date: June 1, 2001 at 08:25

This issue of credit creation gold/silver is a bit exasperating, partly because Christian won't stay around long enough for communication on the subject. Maybe ORO will come through? My gut tells me this is happening and of course numerous questions arise out of this issue. For example, are they using gold remaining on the books, but currently loaned out, for credit creation purposes? If so this is a derivative with zippo underlying it. If they can create a 10 fold fiat off of the gold, why in the world would they lend it for 1%? Maybe they're doing both! Lend for 1% to control 'commodity' gold, yet still expand their credit output off of it.
Let's use a rough formula to look at the magnitude of this possible credit creation. These numbers are rough and for demonstration purposes only, OK? Let's say 1000 tons of gold is worth $9Billion, and CBs are utilizing their entire 'holdings' of gold of 32,000 tons for 'credit creation'. This comes to $288Billion at the value of 'commodity' gold, but it then gets expanded for credit at a 10 fold factor taking us to an overall credit amount of $2.88Trillion. That is not chump change.
Do these numbers, ideas spark any particular insight from anyone? This, too, will get chased down and layed to rest sooner or later. Thanks.


What does Christian know, and from where ?
Posted by: Anon_1
Date: June 1, 2001 at 05:55

Christian (6/1/01; 05:13:32MT - msg#: 55117)
Kre-iern Undergang by Alan Greenspan
Alan wrote this book before he wrote the book titled Gold and Economic Freedom. Kre-ieren to me has two meanings - Create or Creative and undergang means doom or destruction. --------------------------- The most powerful trend in financial market today is the monetization of tangible assets, whether it be minerals, lumber, farm commodities or real estate like land, homes or industrial buildings to create financial instruments called derivatives. The prolification of hedge funds is a testament to the global non-investment grade financial spree. Naked short selling of minerals, lumber and farm commodity prices benefit hedge funds for it them a risk free way to make billions by leasing or lend by means of futures contract. The owners of the paper trade make the profits - while the owners of the physical is forced to take the loss. All this is possible for direct and indirect laws or subsidies ordinary citizens effectively guarantee the banking systems balance sheet.------------------------------------- There is three gold prices 1=commodity paper trade, 2=BIS price to settle trade between countries ($540) 3=LBMA price of deliverable credit creation gold based on banks reserve requirements. If the central banks reserve requirements were 10% that would mean credit creation price would be 10 times commodity price. If the central banks reserve requirements were 5% that would mean credit price is 20 times commodity price. Why In gods name can we the ordinary people not do the same thing. The term commodity gold should mean physical gold but instead it means paper gold. Why must commodities be traded as paper markets? No commodities are allowed to show a true supply and demand picture. Producers nor investors are allowed to sell at the credit creation level. We are second class citizens. We, we, us, you and me got to do something to help ourselves. We got to get away from financial sevtitution to the upper class. We got to do it and not just talk about it. We can moan and groan thill all hell freezes over but to get something done we got to do it.......!!!!!!!!!!

Usul (6/1/01; 01:53:07MT - msg#: 55110)
Creative destruction
Joseph Schumpeter once described a process that he called "creative destruction" in the American economy.
undergang (Norwegian) --> Doom (
Greenspan has referred to this concept in his speeches.
Greenspan 0n SS & Creative Destruction

silvercollector (05/31/01; 20:06:48MT - msg#: 55088)
Christian is either completely off his nut or is privy to inside information.

Commodity (as in paper;Comex) POG = $265/oz. US
Trade settlement POG = $526/oz. US
Credit creation POG = $3000/oz. US

Paper dollars are fractionalized by a factor of ten for the purpose of credit creation so why can't gold do the same.
I would rather collateralize a CB backed with gold than some paper dollar bank, yes?
I follow Christian as I know you do [because you get all bent out of shape when he posts :)] and I find the 'trade settlement price' more intriguing.
silvercollector END

Comment-- Thanks to all who have expressed the worthiness of this particular topic. Hopefully answers can be obtained.

RockgrabberBetter believe this!#5512806/01/01; 09:50:22

I read an article that had some reasons listed as to why we have this COMEX paper mess.

Here are attributes that these conspiracy players.

1.) They have let greed get in the way of common sinse.

2.) They have got themselfes into a corner they cant escape from.

3.) They have a disdain for the monetary value of gold

4.) They are led by the most powerfull men in the world.

5.) They consider the oppostition of little concern.

6.) They believe themselfes to be above the law.

7.) They are short sighted.

8.) They are playing a game they are destined to lose.

POOR POOR IDIOTS! Now here is a list of attributes of the true idiots. The "True Consiparcy Playes," Rothchild style.

1.) They have used their patient greed to develop a plan to capture more of the worlds wealth.

2.) They have got others in a corner that others cannot get out of.

3.) They respect completely the monetary value of gold.

4.) They are the most powerfull men in the world.

5.) They consider the opposition of little concern.

6.) They consider themselfes to be above the law. and;

7.) They are very long sighted.

8.) They are playing a game they are destined to win.

That explains right now very well. They talked folks into the gold carry trade, but making it appear as easy money, only for them to now be trapped. There is not going to be a short squeze, there is going to be a default, and a funeral.

CoBra(too)P.A & ge - Exact ement - That's the Crux!#5512906/01/01; 11:29:39

You wrote:

ge (06/01/01; 09:19:13MT - msg#: 55126)
Peter Asher msg#: 55076
Peter Asher says; "Now if Gold were truly "Free", it would be another international currency, backed not by an economy, but by what it would buy. It would seem then, that a true gold standard could only exist if all things were priced in gold."

My take is that the PTB were exactly trying to tie, or better spin this tale and tell the world that the underlying strength, innovation, productivity and any other economic capacity - should be the basis of the soundness of the respective currency.

... and as we can see, the hegemony of the US currency is exactly what's now destroying this annoying fait a'compli - as the imbalances are there for all to see. Still, to swill the bitter pill of accepting reality was removed by allies, such as IMF and WB - to eternity? - As the lender of the last resort, did distort real value with
the issuance of SDR's, a poor and impr(au)oper paper imposter of as good as gold Dollars. And the rest was set to cheat its own constituents, as they bleat, the issuance of ever more paper will forever keep this perpeteum mobile running (for) another mile :-) ...

... Thank you! cb2

BelgianTo All#5513006/01/01; 11:31:28

Is there anyone who can give me " ONE " single reason why Gold isn't bought at historical low prices and in such amounts that Gold's value increases and continues to increase just by adding and keeping the physical ?

This question is a simple re-invention of Colombus's egg.
Thousands of Funds of all kinds with oceans of fiat, and Gold seems to ask to be re-invented. Honestly, I don't get it !

JMBJP MORGAN is out with a bullish gold report?#5513106/01/01; 11:37:01

Did I hear that right?
auspecBelgian-- Two Reasons#5513206/01/01; 11:38:08

"Is there anyone who can give me " ONE " single reason why Gold isn't bought at historical low prices and in such amounts that Gold's value increases and continues to increase just by adding and keeping the physical ?"

Answer: You and I don't {yet} have enough money to move this market.

uponroofSame old 'paper supply-physical demand' miracles#5513306/01/01; 11:41:08

"Never has so much (paper) been owed to so few (physical)"- Churchill?

From 'The American Advisor':

"...On Wednsday South Africa (largest gold producer in the world) announced: "1st quarter 2001 gold production fell 9.4%. Last year during the same quarter their production had fallen 7.9%.

Report from the United States Dept. of the Interior/Dept of Geologic Surveys: "World gold demand set a new quarterly record during the fourth quarter of 2000". We know from private industry sources that during the first quarter of this year, again we set a new all time high for gold demand..........What we are seeing is volatility in the beginning stages of a new bull market...."
More U.S. minted silver to hit the streets next week......

AMERICAN INDIAN GROUPS count on a new Buffalo silver dollar to be issued by the U.S. Mint Thursday to fund a National Museum of the American Indian. The museum, which has been delayed, gets $10 per coin, to be sold at first for as much as $33 and eventually for as much as $37.

What is this, a 6 oz coin?! Or are they anticipating $33-$37 an ounce silver? Nah, it's just a comemorative coin that has 'collectible value'. Well, why not just make it out of tin then, like that Sackagooeeah junk?

Peter AsherBelgian, Auspec#5513406/01/01; 11:51:23

The answer is encompassed in #55107 <<<If a gold holder must ‘sell’ his gold in order to make a purchase, he must deal in a gold ‘market place’. ‘Currency holders’ in effect are ‘middlemen’ in a transaction between the gold holder and the owner of his intended acquisition. >>>

Gold is not bought because of the concern that it will be at the same price or lower when the buyer wishes to sell. Call it "Fear of negative redemption syndrome."

It is ‘sentiment’ that needs to get out of the ‘minus’ territory.

WW OracleCOMEX June Gold OI: 2306 #5513506/01/01; 12:10:10

COMEX June Gold open interest is now less than the amount requested for delivery! First delivery date is today...hmm, I wonder what will happen with COMEX warehouse stocks?
ChristianKre-ieren Undergang by Alan Greenspan#5513606/01/01; 12:22:35

Parts my dad wrote down from this book before he died=== All money is debt money in the system. There is no other source of money except to borrow it into existence. Income can not be dollarized except by becomming more debt. (How in the world can debt be repaid with debt dollars?) The money system represents debt that is monetized. The arrival of raw materials times price- man debited, nature credited delivers earnings= monetization of raw materials. Only earnings can retire debt and therefore they rate attention as a sort of negative debt. A sound money system must provide for a commodity dollar, or at least for a common denominator commodity as backing for currency. The bottom line= that debt cannot be paid off with debt, and debt generates no aggregate income that isn't offset by more debt. USA operates on two sets of books. All commodities are monetized including our constitutional money gold and silver.Commodity gold is paper gold unless and individual takes delivery of the physical. That price is controlled by the paper market. Hedge funds lease gold from central banks and is MOSTLY sold back to central banks. The very same gold can be sold a number of times. The same gold leased and sold back to central banks 20 times earning 1% or better still = 20%. At 2% times 20= $40%. Most of this gold never moves out of the central banks vault. It only has to move out if enough individuals buy it. Credit Creation Gold is gold seperated from commodity gold. This is actual gold in storage with no claims on it other then to serve as bank reserve collateral which is changed up or down by a group of central bankers who make up the FED. When paper money (fiat) is compared against credit creation gold or silver or other metals and real estate, paper money will be devalued. Commodity gold is paper gold is like paper money that will be devalued. (Boy has it ever for the last 20 years.) HOW LONG CAN $ STRENGTH PERSIST IF $ PAPER ASSETS ARE DEPRECIATING???????- Simply by indepting the people to a point the interest cost takes more and more money out of circulation. The dollar will not fall- but the economy will from want or lack of proper interest free currency.
Phoenix RisingLike the Phoenix rising from the ashes...#5513706/01/01; 12:57:39

Have been lurking on this forum for several months and wanted to thank you all for your insights, ideas and wisdom. You guys provide a wonderful service for precious metals and stock market newbies and wanted to let you know how much this newbie appreciates it.

I became interested in precious metals as the direct result of a dream that I had on March 1st, exactly 3 months ago. Prior to that I had no interest or involvement with precious metals or the stock market...I was totally clueless. The dreams I had were so clear, lucid and powerful concerning gold and silver that I began to research the subject on the internet. That's when I discovered this and other websites and began my education.

In the dreams it was revealed that I (we) had until June to accumulate gold and silver, by June (or shortly thereafter)gold/silver would become prohibitively expensive to acquire. The month of June was very specific. It was also revealed that an global economic melt-down would occur that would last 10 years, and that I was to acquire enough to last me for the duration. Like I mentioned earlier the dreams were very profound.

Since that time I have liquidated my assets and tranferred most of my currency into physical gold and silver. The rest I have put into gold/silver stock for a short time only. I also felt compelled to share these dreams with my closest friends and since they know I'm not a nut; they've been acquiring gold/siver for the past 3 months...of course now they're very happy they listened!

I realize that this may sound strange to some of you and that's okay. As an Apache native american, my life experiences have taught me to respect and heed my "inner voice" whenever and wherever it is revealed. It's saved me from myself many a time!

Like the Phoenix rising from the ashes, so too shall gold/silver rise again!

auspecPeter Asher/Belgian#5513806/01/01; 13:02:04

P.A.-I can certainly appreciate what you are saying in regards to: "'Currency holders' in effect are 'middlemen' in a transaction between the gold holder and the owner of his intended acquisition." The only problem is that I cannot hold my breath long enough for this reality to be any other. It's interesting to think of the transaction of a car or house in terms of gold, but it aint gonna happen. Period. That was another century. Am I missing something here?

So we are left to deal with who or what is going to lift the POG in terms of our masters- the 'middlemen' and their vehicle- the currencies. I, for one, will not dismiss "investment demand" as it has been missing for many years, yet is a force to be reckoned with. Those industrious 'ants' can collectively carry much more of the shiny than can easily be imagined. Tell me investment demand played only a small part in POG $800 around 1980. Belgian, as far as miner49er's dismissing the small guys, I will flow with Kosares. We must look to motive for the various forces that can impact the gold market. The simplest and most powerful motive is greed. I buy now through the currency exchange and I sell later for a higher amount of currency. Or Fear to some degree, also through the middlemen, but trying to preserve wealth vs gaining in wealth.
What would be the motive of a country or group of countries that would take the pro gold avenue in direct opposition to the current PE? It would have to be either a bargaining chip to be played, and advantage gained, or an act of economic war. Only a full blown rogue country would directly attack, for long, the supply/demand issues of the gold marketplace. No casual undertaking here.
Motive for a "syndicate" of insiders? Again, a bargaining chip or the making of a statement. Soros is not going to take on the world, him against them. A skirmish, certainly, but no out and out war. China has motive as well as firepower. They are surely tired of dollar hegemony, as are/will be, many other countries. But what good is it to them to exchange the dollar hegemony for the Euro hegemony? Of course the bargaining chips hit the table in any changeover.

The Euro players want their piece of the pie, but they wisely allow US to hang themselves with made-in-USA rope, as opposed to an economic act of war.
So we are left with an interesting coalition of gold advocates, each one adding grains of sand onto the overweighted roof. Whose/which grain of sand will collapse the structure?
The overall answer......the CYCLE has simply swung too far in one direction and is ready to soon overshoot the mark in the opposite direction. The free-market in gold does still exist for those wise enough to buy, regardless of motive. We just don't have the freedom {YET!} to sell at what we believe our precious 'should' go for. Patience is an answer to many a problem. Take the expression "The worst thing that happens to a {wo}man can often be the best thing that ever happens to him if he doesn't let it get the best of him." Our opportunity is present this day.
Thanks for reading if you got this far {call MK for a free coin}.

Old YellerPeering into the murk#5513906/01/01; 13:04:27

Yet another take on where we're going.Capital gains cut,the panacea to the monsters that lurk 'round the corner?Seems to me that one has to have capital gains to benefit.May be hard to obtain,markets are not cheap,prospects for earnings appear dubious at best.

"I say we play on...I don't think the heavy stuff is gonna come down for a while."-Karl the greenskeeper from "Caddy Shack"

Thanks to Rumplestiltskin at GE for the link.

beestingWarm Welcome Phoenix Rising # 55137.#5514006/01/01; 13:11:01

As one who has strong affiliations with Native peoples and their ancient methods of survival, I look forward to your sharing of future dreams and thoughts.....beesting
IronHeadBelgian - One Reason; I'm Still Alive#5514106/01/01; 13:11:54

Very simple Sir Belgian - Mrs. IronHead has often said "the {{price}} of gold will rise and everyone will buy........the day after you die."

"Time proves all things" - and "Time waits for no man."

NetkingAuspec / Belgian #5514206/01/01; 13:21:08

Auspec(55132)Belgian Re:"Is there anyone who can give me " ONE " single reason why Gold isn't bought at historical low prices and in such amounts that Gold's value increases and continues to increase just by adding and keeping the physical ?"
Hello Belgian, I guess a similar reason to silver which Cook says in his latest (I posted link earlier today)is trading at a 5,000 year inflation adjusted low, ha ha ha just think about that for a moment!

People very rarely catch the bottom or the top of any market move in any traded commodity or entity. Some of "the pack" are motivated by fear & greed to an extent, they will wait until the bull is roaring, the media has verbal overload on it & all their friends as well as their local waitress and taxi driver are doing it & they will as well. They will also be heavy buyers on short & medium term tops.

Following a path all of ones lifetime without knowing where it actually leads, . . .such is the behaviour of the multitude. regards NK

beesting A Motion for Peter Ashers # 55076,Free Gold,is currently on the Floor.#5514306/01/01; 13:23:31

Sir Peters # 55076.....Free Gold.... has been nominated with so far only one second to be included in the USAGOLD Hall of Fame, a special place(at the top of the page)for special posts.

WE NEED TWO MORE SECONDS, from any poster,,,before the post can be included in the HOF.
Below is the nomination and below that is Sir Peters original post, for those that didn't see it yesterday.

beesting (05/31/01; 21:38:28MT - msg#: 55098)
For any new posters, when a nomination is made for the USAGOLD HOF a
total of
THREE seconds is required for the nominated post to qualify for the Hall of

My reason for the nomination:
Sir Asher has clearly defined why so many of us here have had such a hard
understanding the pricing of Gold.
As Gold is and should be the undisputed international unit of monetary
account the
world over it has been the goal of the issuers of paper currency to lessen its
in every country in the world. They have accomplished this feat by pricing
everything in
local currencies. Our Peter Asher finally exposed this deception and his post
deserves a
special place in the USAGOLD Hall of Fame.

Peter Asher (05/31/01; 18:23:08MT - msg#: 55076)
Free Gold
I think what Miner49er, ORO, ET and Journeyman are saying lines up with
my recent
comment ", Look not at the price of gold in terms of things, look at the price
of things in
terms of gold."

I view all the current mechanisms of POG determination (Discovery) as
being sourced by
the primary fact that gold must be SOLD for currency in order to become
legal tender.
The currencies of the major nations absorb massive quantities of conversion
before one
losses much value re another, compared to an equivalent amount of gold.

It's akin to the phenomena that Bill Gates would experience if he wanted to
make a
multi-billion dollar purchase with his stock shares. The "Value" of the shares
would be
sharply reduced by the act of having to convert them to money. So it is with
presented as money, it nevertheless must be ‘converted ‘to some legal tender
by the
payee or payer in order to be a monetary vehicle with which to go about
purchasing the
wares of others.

This was the ‘Trick’ played on gold by freeing it up to ‘Trade’. That made it
in effect, a
commodity. Certainly the optimum monetary commodity ,but dependent on
supply/demand equation for its ‘value.’

Now if Gold were truly "Free", it would be another international currency,
backed not
by an economy, but by what it would buy. It would seem then, that a true
gold standard
could only exist if all things were priced in gold. Rather then gold being an
asset form of
money substitute, money would be a form of gold substitute.

There would have to be a global agreement to the fact of gold as money in
order for this
to occur; perhaps an international treaty declaring gold to be legal tender.
There would
be no such thing as the POG, only a rate of exchange between it and other
No ‘Value’ could be ’Set’ by any regulatory body. The exchange rate would
be a result
of the trade activities of each nations internal price structure for goods and
True, this exchange rate for gold could fluctuate as do currencies but it
would be
tethered, by market forces, to the respective economies rather than a Gold

The catch is, the holding of gold for buy low/sell high profit would be an
extinct game!![unsnip]

If you think this post is worthy of the HOF Please second it. Thank You......beesting.

Old YellerJapan,a spanner in the works?#5514406/01/01; 13:28:35

The Japanese situation is becoming interesting.Note that the big shots are in Washington and Lance Lewis's comments the other day which were repeated by Bill Murphy.

Curiouser and curiouser.The USDX seems to have stalled.Is it catching it's breath,or is it done:stick a fork in it?

Old YellerLatest output news from the paper mill#5514506/01/01; 13:37:51

Thanks to goldstocktrader at Kitco.
JourneymanYes! @auspec #55138, ALL#5514606/01/01; 13:43:45

"It's interesting to think of the transaction of a car or house in terms of gold, but it aint gonna happen. Period. That was another century. Am I missing something here?" -Auspec

Oh auspec of little faith. The answer is a resounding YES!! You are most certainly missing something.

I have to admit, I understand your mind set. For starters, check out a message I posted here in response to Peter Asher just a bit earlier today, message #55125, entitled "Imagine."

Remember JFK? "Some people see things that are and ask 'Why?' I see things that could be and ask 'Why not?'" - - -

That was Keynes' position in trying, successfully, to overturn the gold standard for what we certainly must know by this time is the massively inferior "paper standard." If those folks were able to replace a superior standard with an inferior one, why should it be unimaginable to do the inverse??

Apparently I've recently acquired a reputation here as some sort of idealistic wild-eyed dreamer. As a professional gambler with nearly thirty years experience under my belt, this is a new role, and I don't fit it very well.

So, auspec, I find myself obliged to synopsize some of those points I made previously, believing perhaps they appeared in too verbose a form previously to have attracted your attention.

I've posted a bunch of reasons why gold most certainly is favored, historically and practically, to return, put it in the proper contexts - - - such as the "new economy" everyone came to believe in despite the lessons of history, but, just as history suggested, it deflated (and still has a way to go). I wrote of my Polish friends who believed Soviet Communism would be forever simply because it had been around for 70 years, etc.

Gold divorced from paper has been around for only 30 years or so, and is failing badly all around the world. Need I mention S. Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, Ecuador, Turkey, Brazil, Chile, Greece, Philippeans, Malaysia, Russia - - - -

Further, the cross-currency exchange impossibilities, effecting 24% of trade (which would be more than 24% without these impossibilities)is becoming apparent to all, and transactional gold, according to the Barrons article is waiting in the wings. Larry Kudlow frenetically espousing the highly unlikely dollarization of the world at his lecture in Italy, just as the euro (nearly 50 years in the making) MIGHT be successful and Argentina is backing off dollarization, gives me a feel for the desperation plaguing TPTB.

Again I ask, given the lessons of history, the currrent growth in electronic gold use, and the current shakey fiat circumstances (particularly of the dollar), what makes you, auspec, so confident in the future of fiat?

Make the case if you can.


Peter AsherAuspec! what was that about a free coin?? (:-)#5514706/01/01; 13:51:49

Do not treat so lightly the imagination of us foolish dreamers. Re your <<<It's interesting to think of the transaction of a car or house in terms of gold, but it aint
gonna happen. Period. That was another century. Am I missing something here? >>>

What your missing is that it CAN happen! For instance, we are contemplating putting the timber property up for sale, listing with realtors but referring to our own website for the sale data. I have every intention of listing it in oz. of gold ONLY! Foolish? Perhaps. Fun? You betcha! Actually, per #55107, I truly believe the gambit will enhance market presence by creating a unique element to the promotion. Now 4000 ounces won't change the gold market, but all change is made up by the composite acts of individuals. RFK said something to the effect of ‘Each one of us may only make a ripple in the pond but by spreading outward and joining together they can become a wave."

Suppose Gold advocates put their actions where their philosophy was and started to do this? Movements have been launched with less.

"Imagine all the people-----"

Old YellerO'Neill's excellent adventure in Wonderland#5514806/01/01; 13:54:45

Yada,yada yada'same old song through most of the article.Check out the last paragraph,though,kind of makes you go h'mmm.

One question'sir;in relation to what?Spinorama lives.

Thanks,Goldfish at kitco,a little humor to end a rough week.

Peter AsherJourneyman! Well met!#5514906/01/01; 14:01:01

Actually, we were both quoting Robert, I am sure of that. I have heard that the sentence originally came from a character's dialogue in a George Bernard Shaw novel.

It is one of my most favorite quotes. I often refer to the "Two kinds of people" being the ‘whys’ and the ‘why-nots.’

auspecJourneyman and Peter Asher#5515006/01/01; 14:09:15

Dissertation Regarding Defending the Future of Fiat

Fiat can be printed at will.
auspecbeesting-- Another 2nd for Peter Asher HoF #55076#5515106/01/01; 14:23:35

1 More Needed

The perspectives in this post SHOULD remain front and center, if for no other reason than to constantly remind us how our perpetual fiat falls far short of the ideal.
There was another Beatles song; "Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away. Now it looks like they're here to stay...... For I believe in yesterday."
Good luck to you guys! {Seriously}

Al FulchinoA Third for Peter#5515206/01/01; 14:32:45

I make three.
Al FulchinoPheonix#5515306/01/01; 14:54:22

Hi there and welcome. I read your post with interest. The following paragraph however has left me puzzled. You write:

"Since that time I have liquidated my assets and tranferred most of my currency into physical gold and silver. The rest I have put into gold/silver stock for a short time only. I also felt compelled to share these dreams with my closest friends and since they know I'm not a nut; they've been acquiring gold/siver for the past 3 months...of course now they're very happy they listened!"

Me again: What do u mean..."of course now they're very happy they listened!"? This strange line (to me anyway) is being used as some type of evidence that three months of accumulation has proved to them that they should have and did listen to you, and being a gold bugger myself, I would like to understand why they are happier now versus before. Perhaps you could clarify this. I can understand your motivations to follow your soul's leanings. But I am missing the conection to their abrupt happiness. I am not in your inner circle, but you have been so kind as to share your dream here. I would love to hear more about it and if you have any others.<dreams>

I realize some may think I am jesting here and the truth is I want to understand his friends new found happiness and why it is evidence of any sort. Are they happy because they have come to understand what gold and silver can mean as wealth preservers? Are they simple followers? Or is this all made up...I will take any answer at face value.....I raise this for one reason....sometimes there may be a gem of an answer or life experience to be shared, and I will not know unless I ask the question.

Peter Asherauspec & Al, #5515406/01/01; 15:00:37

Thanks for the punt over the goal-line.

beesting, thanks for the extra push with the re-post

All three of you and JMB: thanks for the votes of confidence and understanding. Vive la AU!

auspec: Re - All that printed Fiat They can print it, but its like an invitation to a party. You need an RSVP and an arrival to have substance. If noone borrows it, it languishes in the bank ledgers accumulating debt to the Fed until the banks send it back to the ‘Vault of the Black Hole’ from whence it came.

This is what happened in Japan, right? Maybe that's the raison d’etre for zero interest;

auspecPeter Asher#5515506/01/01; 15:33:07

Expanded Dissertation

Fiat can be printed at will. Those who make the rules choose NOT the gold.
LeighWeekly World News Reports - Fort Knox Empty!#5515606/01/01; 15:38:03

Just got home from Safeway. As I was standing in line, the June 12th issue of Weekly World News was flashing the headline "Fort Knox Empty - America is Broke!" "As Alan Greenspan Begs President: Declare National Emergency NOW!" The story inside quotes Harold Coldbloom, "a highly respected professor of economics," as saying that what is in Fort Knox now is lead bricks, and that the gold has been all sold off.

Who is Harold Coldbloom? Has anyone ever heard of him?

escapethematrixIt's no Gold Trail Update......But it will have to do for now :)......#5515706/01/01; 16:53:12

TrailGuide: Any comments about these guys?? It seems that their perceptions differ from our wonderful American Corporate propaganda machine....err....sorry... "free press" .A bit closer to what we term "reality", quite obviously :)

Randy@the Tower: "You da man", as they say. Thanks for all your efforts. You sir, like many other posters and lurkers,
seem to see the Another/FOA scenrio with much clarity. You certainly have great patience, thanks again for your dedication.

Snippet: (props to Black Blade :))

China has had good balance in trade with USA during many years - 41% of Chinese export goes to USA.
The Chinese government has not less than $400 billion including firms’ capitals, belonging to ethnic Chinese out of the state's borders (these firms were created according to the line of the Chinese government and with participation of special services). China can buy all gold stock of USA, which is 8 thousand tons with its dollar volume. What refers to gold stock of China itself, information about them is different. According to official data, gold stock of China has not nearly changed during 20 years and it does not exceed 400 tons. According to other estimations, it is much more. So the estimation of A.N. Anisimov is that it is larger American one in two folds that means it exceeds 15 thousand tons. It increases to 600-1000 tons annually. Difference between statistic data can be explained by the fact, that Chinese is satisfied with their underestimation of potential by the western countries.

The further growth of China's power is to lead to the fact, that Chinese currency will take the place of the dollar, at least in Asian-Pacific Region. The conception of introducing golden Yuan is worked out by the Chinese government. China will become one of the largest world creditors during the period of 2010-2020 years.
It seems that anti-dollar policy of China satisfies other countries of Asian-Pacific Region as well. Asian crisis, which was provoked by Americans and Soros in particular, stroke the currency but did not bring much damage to Yuan and its "brother" - Hong-Kong dollar. Chinese from ASEAN countries, according to words of A.N. Anisimov promised to ruin Soros because of his actions (readers familiar with Asian films know that such promises can not be forgotten at the East). The Ambassador of Malaysia Datuk Yahya Baba, who made a speech at the Special Business Meeting also complained at provoked by Americans and IMF crisis and remarked, that "Asia waits for Russia".
It depends on out government, whether it will be able to use this chance for rebuilding of former influence of Russia in these countries.

1. American dollar loses positions of the basic reserve currency of the world.
2. U.S. chiefs will use any means including politically incorrect for keeping leadership of its currency;
3. Financial authorities are going to search for the alternative for American currency in different regions of the world. The interest to euro, multi-currency standard and gold increases.
4. Golden Chinese Yuan has very wide chances to become one of the important world reserve currencies.
Review is written according to materials of
Vice editor-in-chief of the "Valutny speculant" journal
Sergey Dishlevsky

Black BladeUS natgas prices set to stay high - El Paso#5515806/01/01; 18:15:00


PARIS, June 1 (Reuters) - U.S. natural gas prices are likely to remain high for the next decade because of an expected rise in domestic production costs and delays in building new gas pipelines, said U.S. energy company El Paso. El Paso, one of the United States' largest gas companies, expects gas prices to average between $3 and $5 per million British thermal units (mmBtu) over the next 10 years, John Hushon, president and CEO of El Paso Europe told a power investment conference late on Thursday.

Black Blade: I would think that the costs of NG to rise even more. With a roughly 50% increase in NG drilling, there has been less than a 1% increase in NG stocks. Add to this 275 new NG-fired power plants are due to be online between now and 2006. The NG targets being pursued are more expensive to drill and tie in to new expensive pipelines. Since these NG companies are not charities, I would expect that the costs will be passed on to the end users. The costs of energy are destined to rise substantially going forward.

Black BladeBaker Hughes - U.S. rig count up 8, Canada up 28#5515906/01/01; 18:19:40


NEW YORK, June 1 (Reuters) - The number of rigs searching for oil and natural gas in the United States rose by eight to 1,270 during the week ending June 1, according to oil services firm Baker Hughes (NYSE:BHI).

Black Blade: More rigs, no real net gain in NG.

Black BladeElectricity crisis looms in NY#5516006/01/01; 18:29:39


An energy crisis threatens New York unless new power plants are approved, industry officials said on Thursday, though the state is unlikely to face blackouts this summer like those that have hit California. The New York Independent System Operator (NYISO), which runs the state's wholesale electricity markets and manages the power grid, warned of power shortages and possible price hikes as early as next year. "New York has no significant generation coming on and we are expecting load increases. That spells trouble," said Bill Museler, NYISO's chief executive.

Black Blade: How soon until the Eastern Grasshopper follows in the steps of the Californian Grasshopper? They have seen the coming storm and are now hopping. Some new power generation plants and NG sources from Eastern Canada could allow them to squeeze by.

beestingATTENTION Sir Randy of the Golden Tower.#5516106/01/01; 18:36:27

It has come to pass that on or about 06/01/01 M.T. Sir Peter Ashers post "Free Gold" # 55076 has recieved the necessary 3 seconds to qualify for inclusion into the illustrious USAGOLD Hall of Fame.
Nomination: beesting 05/31/01 21:38 M.T..
1st second: JMB 05/31/01 22:01 M.T.
2nd second: auspec 06/01/01 14:23 M.T.
3rd second: Al Fulchino 06/01/01 14:32 M.T.


Black Blade32 Million American Families at Risk for Bankruptcy#5516206/01/01; 18:37:51


LOS ANGELES, June 1 /PRNewswire/ -- The threat of bankruptcy is real! This year more people will file for bankruptcy than will graduate from college. And as a result of the economic downturn, stock market devaluation and thousands of corporate layoffs, a growing number of families have reached the brink of economic crisis. The two lowest quintiles, representing about 40 percent of Americans, earned on average $12,338 after taxes and spent on average $20,808 in 1999. That's roughly 32 million households running an annual deficit of $8,160. This debt is primarily attributed to large amounts of short-term liquidated credit. Furthermore, the Federal Reserve reports that consumer debt has now reached $1 trillion, or nearly $9,000 per U.S. family.

Black Blade: OUCH! These certainly are grim numbers. Then there's the new "Bankruptcy Bill" that will not simply wipeout debt. This could get ugly as many of these people get desperate. My philosophy - never get into debt in the first place.

VanRipFleckenstein on Gold, FWIW#5516306/01/01; 18:40:24

From today's column. Bill Fleckenstein has refrained from jumping into the gold market for quite a long time. Whatever he's been looking at has apparently convinced him to get back in today. Don't know if it's physical or stocks. I wonder how many of his subscribers will follow suit next week.

<<The precious metals edged higher, about a quarter of a percent. The gold bulls got a little good news in that the open interest was down another 6,000. So, we have completely flushed out all the recent speculators. Could it be that this was the final, nauseating decline before the market really starts to work higher? That's what the bulls would like to believe. That is my present belief also, and my hope, as I added to my gold position today.>>

megatronLeigh#5516406/01/01; 19:21:36

By jove! You've done it! You found the source of today's 108 point rise in the TSE gold index. What elese could it be? I'm not joking!!! This is serious. With the no-brain auto-pilot investors looking for the 'recovery' it probably tweaked enough people to jump in. Very interesting. If nothing substantial happens monday we'll know why there was such a run-up in a normally sedate, unloved, market. The dude is probably RIGHT, though. My friends gramma phoned him last week and told him to buy gold and bury it. How old is this article? :)
lamprey_65Weekend Reading Material#5516506/01/01; 19:26:52

Long (as always!) but well worth the time.
lamprey_65From the previously posted link...#5516606/01/01; 19:32:11

" should be clear that 'cutting checks' and perpetuating bubbles are not only ineffective, they are very much a disastrous losing proposition. This is why governments should not be in the business of sustaining booms."


Phoenix RisingReply to Al's questions#5516706/01/01; 21:30:43

Hi Al! Thank you for your questions. Along the way, I have learned to be extremely discriminating in choosing my closest friends. They are people of differering age groups, ethnicity's, and diverse backgrounds but they all have the same fundamental qualities: integrity, intelligence and are "solid as oaktrees." Each one of them is authentic with slightly twisted humor and a firmly grounded sense of their own personal power. They have qualities that I admire....that's why they're my closest friends!

To answer your question: "I would like to understand why they are happier now versus before". When I first told them about the dreams I was having their reactions were varied. All of them were taken aback by my sudden interest (obsession?) with precious metals. Never before had I displayed any interest in acquiring gold, silver or even for that matter green paper money. But when they saw me racing 'round town buying up gold coins and silver bars, they knew something serious was up! Here is a general round-up of their responses.

One of my friends (great guy in his 40's, real salt-of-the-earth type) received news of my dreams with skepticism then came to me several days later and said "I''ve been thinking about what you said and it makes a lotta sense, where would one go to buy some of this gold/silver?" So I directed him to the local coin dealers. When I asked him why he had suddenly become gung-ho on precious metals he said that he had done his own research, had recalled what had happened in the late 70's early 80's and came to the conclusion that a similar scenario was in fact developing, particularly in regard to silver. About a week ago he made what I thought was an odd statement, he said that for the first time in his life he felt like he was actually saving real money, like he was finally ahead of the game!

In the beginning of March my friends and I were able to buy silver bars for about $430 apiece. Gold oz went for about $270.- . Also was able to buy up a green case of 2000 silver eagles (500) for $3,100. At that time I was able to get rolls of 2001 silver eagles for about $140.- And of course grabbed all the junk silver I could find, which wasn't very much. Slowly but surely my junk silver pile has started to get bigger. Now we can't even find any 100 oz silver bars locally! The only place I know to get 100 oz silver bars anymore is thru the Internet and they're not going for $430 anymore!

Some of my friends in their 20's and 30's really didn't understand the significance of gold/silver when I first approached them. They are too young to remember the gold/silver rush of 1980. They don't even remember the recession in the early 1990s. I suggested to them that they read their history....and compare the last 5,000 years of gold performance versus the past 30 years of fiat economics. Recession, depression, inflation, deflation, hyperinflation, wars, it doesn't and silver ALWAYS prevail! My young friends are wise....and know how to follow direction. So they've been following our lead and have been loading up on physical/stock precious metals! Now they're starting to get it!

Another one of them (a professional woman in her early 50's) said "Oh no, I'm not getting back into gold/silver again!" when I first told her about my dreams. Then she told me that she had already spent over $800 an ounce for several ounces of gold back in the early 80's, only to watch it promptly take a dive. She also told me that silver was around $50. an ounce back then, which was news to me. Remember I was absolutely clueless at that time about precious metals. She did state that gold was the best hedge against inflation. A short while later she came to me and said "Thank you for reminding about the true value of gold/silver, I had forgotten." Then she expressed her concern about the Middle East, China and assorted geopolitical hotspots. And asked me to recommend some good gold/silver stocks for her. Of course I was totally horrified at the thought of gold/silver stock, but she stated that it was the best way to benefit from the rise in the POG.

Thus began my journey into researching mining companies and the stock market. Within the next 6 weeks we had loaded up on gold/silver stocks at what I think are good prices. Got CDE at .97 cents, HL for .75 cents and Drooy for .91 cents to mention a few, also snapped up some GG, HM, ECO and BGO. On Wednesday, May 16th, I began to feel "antsy" and became obsessed with buying more gold stock, by Thursday night I could barely sleep. After a fitful night with only a couple of hours sleep I woke up on Friday (May 18) at the crack of dawn KNOWING I had to get my hands on as much gold stock as I could. One hour after having my latest market order confirmed...I watched as gold began it's rise!

Boy were my friends relieved after that $13.75 rise on May 18th :-) Keep in mind some of them had thrown quite of bit of $$$$$ at gold/silver physical and stock during the previous 3 months! And yeah, they did call me the next day to thank me and ask me what my latest dreams were! We are not traders or speculators. We consider ourselves to be long term investors and look upon our foray into precious metals as a necessity during these unstable economic times. We have good positions in our physical holdings and in our stock purchases. We do not trade in/out...our primary purpose is to to preserve our current holdings and have something that retains its value.

Why are they happier? Because they've remembered or discovered that gold and silver is THE medium of exchange and will retain its value when all else fails. This rediscovered awareness enables all of us to make better financial decisions NOW to prepare us for whatever the future may hold. One of my friends made the comment "I used know all this stuff about the value of gold/silver, how could I have forgotten it? It's like we've all been in a fog or a haze and are starting to come out of it." I guess you could say our perceptions have changed....our eyes have been opened.

JMBPETER ASHER#5516806/01/01; 21:35:38

Sir Peter, congratulations on your well deserved entry into the HOF....well done.

"There would be no such thing as the POG, ONLY A RATE OF EXCHANGE BETWEEN IT AND OTHER CURRENCIES. [My emphasis] At first blush I thought this was inconsistent but now I'm not so sure. This international gold pricing system, or whatever designated name it receives, will need a credit system to operate in conjunction with it. Fiat may still exist. Hopefully a fiat with some form of collateral backing it. Perhaps real estate and/or a constitutional provision guaranteeing the tax revenue of the nation. An individual contracting for a loan could agree to a partial lien against his wages. If any or all of these credit obligations fail or the credit system hyper-inflates the holders of gold will not be wiped out.

We need credit to ensure an uninterrupted continuation of the business cycle. Hey, economists and traders have to eat too and there's nothing like a devastating market crash to keep the citizenry on their toes. Gold will act as an economic refuge.

The "exchange rate" part of your equation would probably fall into the .5000 area you alluded to. I think we're going to need some help on this Nobel Prize winning effort.

Al FulchinoRandy and Escapethematrix#5516906/01/01; 22:34:07

Hi Randy and Escape the Matrix

Randy I have just found some time tonight to comment to Mr Escape from our brief dialogue over two weeks ago and found that you to had also responded. Thank you. I will start with my post so that anyone wishing to follow it can be brought to speed. And then use the two responses and my comments to them.

But first, Mr Escapethematrix, I see you have resurfaced again this evening. Both your appearances have come right on the day when two tower stalwarts have been questioned <attacked would be too strong a word, I believe the questioning was all well intended, and since I was one of the "questioners" I have first hand info on my intent and the other is a good fellow>. In any account, your extremely timely appearance has been noted.

My original:

Al Fulchino (05/16/01; 18:09:48MT - msg#: 53758)
Trail Guide
Trail Guide, I am unconvinced I will get a reply to this, but will throw this out here for the forum's eyes just the same. There is a theme that runs through some of your comments from time to time and I wish to make note of it. In the following, a segment of your recent post, you mention us westerners again:
"Beesting, your note about electronic gold is interesting. Ha! Ha!,,, It seems Americans (and most Westerners) never can quite keep their hands on physical gold. Even in the past when minted by their governments. They are always setting themselves up for some paper fraud or eventual credit saving transition that grabs their wealth with a rules change. Could be your lot in life??? "

me again: There is in my mind this anti Western theme that you have and I am at a loss to understand why. If I am incorrect, please straighten me out. Where on this earth do you find any other countries that have fared better? It seems that history tells us that while we Westerners have and are repeating their mistakes, there are no Easterners, Northerners or Southerners, to use your lingo, that have done any better. Yet all I ever hear is the notion about us Westerners not being able to keep our hands on gold.

Usually when people are categorized, pro or con, in such a way as to compare them to another, there is a visible difference. Thus, show me/us who is smarter and wiser at keeping their hands on gold for long periods. Other than ritualistic countries such as India, there are none. In fact, you cannot even count a ritualistic people, because we Westerner's, as bad as we are, still own a good amount of gold.

Hopefully, other readers here also see that we Westerner's once again do not have to be made to feel inferior.

escapethematrix (05/16/01; 19:55:21MT - msg#: 53763)
Al Fulchino ...Re: TrailGuide.....
I believe you do indeed misunderstand the point and context of FOA's allusions to "Westerners". He speaks more of a "Western mindset".....I.E., our attitudes and the way that we see and interperet events, whether it be in regard to people, markets, or politics. I do believe that FOA has indicated that he, himself, is one of "us", AL , a "Westerner" if you will. Having read and analyzed all of FOA's and Another's posts, I really don't understand how, if you have read them, you would get that perception, unless you didn't understand the context in which the statements were made.You shouldn't feel slighted at all, or allow yourself to develop ridiculous nationalistic tunnel-vision, which can only serve to limit your perceptions. The US Government,IMF, and the parasitical Fed are, in all reality, the biggest vampires this world has ever seen. It makes me laugh when I read tirades about those terrible "socialist bureaucrats in Europe" , as if our esteemed "elected officials" were any better.

Trailguide: Best of luck on your fishing trip, hope you catch that "big one". Thanks for all you do.

Me: Dear fellow, since when is the poor Western Mindset toward gold any different than those that have come before and such that it needs to be called a "western mindset"? Did we invent this mindset? Corruption is corruption, east, west, north and south, thus no need to for him to narrow it down to a "western mindset" I am watching CNN right now. Some black basketball players have been accused of seeking sex from a strip club in Atlanta. Should I declare a basketball mindset? A Black mindset? An Atlanta tourist mindset? We all know the answer is no. My post was to make note of the subliminal attack on those among us from the west and that even this man as learned as he appears can fall prey to. And we need no more attacks heaped upon us. We need not all be categorized do we? We have endured a constant attack on our culture, our moral values and our institutions from many sources from within and without that do not have our best interest at heart.. And even if the esteemed Trail Guide falls prey to categorizations, should he not be called on it? I am darn sure I can as easily slip up on categorizations, but I will be just as wrong as he is. The West as it stands is STILL the place he finds the most freedom in which he can speak. The west built initially upon many good and sound ideas is still the place that holds malevolent forces at bay around the world so that he can travel freely and conduct his business and purchase his gold with his paper, when he wants and how much he wishes. And another point. Just because TG is from the west should not carry weight in and of itself. This is not an attack, just a point that being from the west does not describe who you are. So your attempt at making him one of us simply by geographical location does not hit the mark. Ending, I say that if he wishes to comment on corruption, then fine. There is just no need to declare that westerners or as he says himself, "Americans," are incapable of holding on to sound money. If you and he don't respect the Fed, say the Fed. If you and he do not respect the IMF, say the IMF, etc etc etc.

Me :Mr Randy. Hi.

Randy (@ The Tower) (5/17/01; 11:42:50MT - msg#: 53806)
Hello Al Fulchino, I took notice of yesterday's msg#: 53758
You said to Trail Guide, "There is in my mind this anti Western theme that you have and I am at a loss to understand why. ...all I ever hear is the notion about us Westerners not being able to keep our hands on gold."

My friend, I've got to scratch my head a bit on that one, particularly because this IS a forum on gold. And due to its english presentation and the monetary hegemony of the "West" and its currency, the focus of almost all conversation here is surely to be expected to fall upon the treatment of gold within our "Western" monetary machinations. I'm certain no offence is ever intended.

Me: I would agree, no offence is intended, yet by his defining a poor human trait as "American" or "western" he falls short of accuracy. This poor trait he seeks to describe is human. And the defense that is given to all that is TG or Another here on the forum is very noticeable. I am sure that they recognize that participating in a forum will require thorough examination of their thoughts and that they are both tough enough to withstand questioning. If not, then your question below about being "upset" and guaging mood will need be direct to them <smile>.

You: But further, how can any effective dialog occur on such topics of human nature and activity without building upon generalizations -- descriptions of the "average"? Unfortunately, you have adopted the perception that such generalizations are akin to "categorizing" people with the aim of ordering the categories by degree of superiority. I hope this is not the prevailing sentiment out there in the world because I, too, present much material built upon the "general", as do most effective economists, businessmen, scientists, engineers, historians, politicians, weathermen, the list goes on...

Me: I agree with you to a point. But categorizations are not always fair, in fact I point again that he specifically said "Americans". When it comes to the degrees of superiority of categorizations, there are! And they themselves give way to specifics!!! And aside from his categorizations he does specifically mention that Americans themselves cannot keep their hands on gold. I simply want to know what the need is to speak of these westerners as if we are all so bad. Show me who is better. Categorically and specifically.

You: But if you are unappeased by that, and still feel that we "Westerners are being specifically targeted with lashes of spitfire, this occurs to me. Sometimes the necessary or most effective medicine is only available in the form of a bitter pill. Truth?

Me: I guess I made my point. There are gradients IMO and there are important reasons to say "the FED", or "the IMF" etc. And one might even think, by your "truth" comment, only if one were so inclined of course <smile>, that Truth can only come from certain mouths. Of course, I know that is not true. But thank you for the truth. <wink>

You: Or put another way, sometimes it does take more than gentle kisses to inspire actions and solve problems. I'm confident you already know this, and have yourself rolled back your sleaves on more than one occasion to tackle whichever task was at hand. Are you truly upset over this??? Mood is nearly an impossible thing to gage in the typewritten word.

Me: I agree mood can be impossible to guage. How is yours? Escape's and TG's ? I appreciate your voiced concern, but I wonder why mood or upsetness must be brought into the mix? It was just a simple comment from a mere opinionated subject. Is the Tower upset? I only asked "who was better at keeping their gold than Americans or westerners that these two groups need be focused on?".
Sorry it took so long to respond.

Solomon WeaverPhoenix......I like your dream#5517006/01/01; 22:51:24


Thanks for telling us about this personal experience. It is a little different than most of the things we read here...but it represents a great treasure.

You see....most of what we are all talking about here on the forum is very intellectual....logical.....(it is why I always come back). The journey for me on this site is far beyond goes deep into the illusions that we can understand global economics.

Many of the wealthiest of days gone by had "sages" in their give practical and timely advice....and those with the best "sages" often had the most, this manifestation awakens once more in Apache blood.

Good luck with your newfound gold and silver.....

P.S. Just warning you that you may need a little patience...did your dream specifically state June 2001???

Poor old Solomon

US_Army(RET)Rising Phoenix --- "Dream"#5517106/01/01; 23:16:10

Rising Phoenix (& AL),

Your and your friends experience is not unique.

Am continuously in awe of how this great mystery we call life operates.

I too had an "awakening" (vision?) which I can place in about the same time frame as your "experience" (dream).

As you, I promptly went about converting all liquid assets to as much AU (and some AG) as I could stretch my resources for. Initially I started purchasing some rather large quantities of mining shares, but the education I have received from primarily this forum…convinced me that the ultimate form of security could only be gained by holding physical. So all that was quickly converted.

Close relatives and trusting friends have all begun doing the same. Odd, that only a couple of months ago none (including me) had the slightest notion of purchasing or obtaining anything resembling a precious metal. Now instead of living in daily "fear" of assets exposed in the markets or other fiats…worries have given way to contentment…and the idea of letting the world bring on what it will.

To others, casual acquaintances/co-workers, etc. they merely look thru me with a blank stare and open look of doubt if I bring up the subject…just as they do when I mention even the remotest doubt about our govt's financial polices or possible future recession scenarios…Have long ago given up preaching or trying to convince others "the sky is falling" --- As with all "awakenings" those that are willing to put aside current "norms" and go against the flow of the masses will "see"…no chance for the others whom have their "blinders" firmly attached.

But something is stirring in the "great consciousness" --- your dream affirms my experience… which is providing great comfort and security to those I care about the most.

Thank you for your post.



Peter AsherJMB, Thanks once again for the second and the discussion feedback.#5517206/01/01; 23:29:54

Re your <<<This international gold pricing system, or whatever designated name it receives, will need a credit system to operate in conjunction with it.>>> -- WATCH-OUT FOR THE TRAP!!!! Whew, you almost stepped in it. {:-)

This is where we get sucked in.

Consider this excerpt <<< The exchange rate would be a result of the trade activities of each nations internal price structure for goods and services. True, this exchange rate for gold could fluctuate as do currencies but it would be tethered, by market forces, to the respective economies rather than a Gold Market. >>>

Credit would be issued in the currency of the nation writing it.

Gold, as a floating global specie money, would exist outside of all credit systems. In this ‘gold as legal tender’ system, there would be, outside of the jewelry and industry consumption flow, no use to sell gold TO. Ergo, very little financial activity would exist for an operation of borrowing and then selling gold. Someone might choose to put up their gold as collateral for a fiat loan that they anticipated paying back, but why, other then a speculative conjecture that they might ultimately gain some buying power in doing so.

The point of restoring gold to its original roll as a DIRECT medium of exchange is that buying and selling it no longer occurs except when it is actually consumed. You can't sell me your dollar for my dollar, right?

Gold was not demonetized, really. what happened to it was that it was commodity-ized

Solomon WeaverMountain Gold - I am starting a betting pool on how long you last here#551736/2/01; 00:34:55

Golden Truth (05/31/01; 13:10:48MT - msg#: 55049)
To F.O.A aka T.G

Mountain Gold .... some nights ago, after a dose of nice Russian Jeres, the old philosopher got some heat in his blood and called into question your rather shallow contribution of market chatter, bragging bravado about how you earn your money...etc. A few brave knights jumped quickly to your defense, and I suspect you may not have noticed the whole story (as we have different hours and I seriously doubt your read very much beyond a few posts up and down from where you write). quietly reading over an entire 2 days of postings, I step in to defend a highly respected knight of our table, sir Trail Guide, who actually needs no defense.

In due respect sir Mountain Mold, our gracious host MK has made a special high mountain trail available to this knight, and we are not judging him based on his predictions or timing.....we do not worship him.....we respect him because he wisely uses the analogy of the trail, and the calm scenery as enjoyed on along a nice hike....when the mind opens and rests upon that which is fundamental.

You sir, have made a grave have interpreted our Trail Guide as an Icon of some kind...someone who you might try to dengrate and slander with the vernacular and rhetoric of a "revivalist"....but you have missed the real picture. Trail Guide is simply and artist, and author...he steps outside of his own mind to portray the mind of gold....those are not "his" words you read preserved in growing volumes on the trail....they are words of wisdom and entertainment "penned and donated to us" - members of this forum. Does it really matter if they are fiction or non-fiction....does it not matter more what they inspire in each of it not odd how that simple trail holds us all together...keeps us somehow focused over the many months and years along common lines?

In the many years he posts..have we ever seen a sign of who he is, what he does, how much he makes, how successful he really is??? We judge him only by his words....and the way they are used.

You sir, have shown your hand. If I judge you with the same yardstick, then you are a shallow braggard, who even if you are turning your trading profits into gold, will certainly squander the coins in some future event.

Sir, I care not for your clever "understanding" of the technical trading charts. Today, you may make money on them, but your pride and boastfulness are only passing illusions dancing on the waves of a chaotic financial which creates no real product of true worth and in the end extracts the hard earned salaries of minions who are completely ignorant of your prowess. If you die rich sir, your soul will leave with the taint of foolishness and pride.

You claim to believe in gold. But what do you feel when you press a cool and quiet coin into the palm of your hand???? Is this coin not the antithesis of that volatility upon which you claim to profit?? Or do you feel greed? Perhaps there is some warped illusion that the gold you accumulate will give you power or trust or some other virtue.

Sir Mountain Gold.....if you ever wake up in the morning and peruse posts from the late night before, then I kindly advise you to do something very simple.......just sit down and try to get a grasp on the things that are "really" being discussed here. Ariadne has left a golden thread running through all the posts here in our labyrinth of bantering USAGold voices. We are a family. Please wash your hands and come to the table anew...

I am not yet unconvinced that I might yet have something to learn from you.

Kind regards, poor old Solomon

Curious Peter Asher Post 55076 HOF nomination and my plan to increase POG #551746/2/01; 01:06:00

Congratulations Sir Asher on a most fascinating post. I am pondering a "what if" situation that could really shake things up. Let us proceed.

Other governments do not like the fact that the US dollar as the world reserve currency has several advantages and is used to set the price of oil and other goods in international trade. They are also concerned about the massive trade deficits, the rise in the price of the dollar and the fear of a crash in the value of the dollar. They wonder how can we protect ourselves? The government of Japan in particular has a big problem with their huge investment in US bonds, their economy prostrate, and no practical way to convert that money into something of value before the dollar collapses. What if they decide they want to increase the amount of gold held in their country? The JAMMA (Japan Automobile Manufacturers Marketing Association) meets and decides on a new sales promotion. We will sell our cars at a 5 per cent discount if the buyer will pay for the vehicle with physical gold instead of currency. This is the same basic concept as a manufacturers rebate, a below market interest rate on the loan or a higher trade in value on the trade in. Assume that the average vehicle sells for around $26,000 to $28,000. Each vehicle would represent 100 ounces of gold. Assume that 1 million vehicles were sold each year under this program. This would be 100 million ounces of gold which is somewhat less than 20,000 tons of gold. To expedite the process the local dealers could be encouraged to buy gold coins so that they could accept money in dollars from the customer, send 100 gold coins to the car distributor, and use the money from the customer to buy an additional 100 gold coins. If the program is a big success, perhaps the dealers could start using electronic (digital) gold to avoid the hassle and risk of shipping the gold coins around. 20,000 tons a year purchased from the market should have a significant impact if the sale by a Central Bank of 2400 tons is assumed to impact the markets.

If this marketing tool forced the price of gold up, then fewer gold coins would be needed to purchase each car, people would notice that gold is starting to increase in PRICE (not value)and they may decide that humm, this may be a better investment than the stock market. This would also be a lesser shock to the markets than if the Japanese Government announced that it was going to sell a massive amount of US bonds to get the money needed to help their economy.

What would happen if JAMMA decided to do this? The unhedged gold mine owners would be all for it but the CABAL, the banks, the hedged miners and other powers that be would be against it. It could get comical. The ad from the dealer would read New 2001 ________ pickup, loaded, reduced to only 97 Gold Eagles. The supply is limited. This could also be the master strategy to get electronic gold better understood and more widely used.

Comments anyone?

CuriousPost 55174 should be 3125 tons per year, not 50,000#551756/2/01; 01:23:16

I accidently hit submit before I checked the figures. The concept is still valid but the impact would be smaller. I was assuming these buyers would be paying 100,000,000 ounces of gold for the 1 million vehicles which would convert into something less than 3125 tons of gold. I must not get overexcited.
NetkingSir Solomon Weaver#551766/2/01; 02:29:55

Hello Solomon (Re:55173)
The offending post to which you refer to(#55049, copied in part below))was actually posted by Golden Truth, your post earlier this morning has attacked Mountain Gold. Have you mixed these posts & posters up per chance Sir and is there anything you may need now to do? Very respectfully Netking
Golden Truth(55049)
To F.O.A aka T.G
I have a question for you. It has now been years since your GRANDIOSE claims of paper gold burning and $30,000/oz and hyperinflation and EURO dollar will be the greatest thing since sliced bread commentary!. . .

RockgrabberA Way Out (Mid-East War)#551776/2/01; 03:11:28

Scary thoughts on my mind after researching tonight. Understanding history the way I have taught myself, I believe we are heading to a war in the Mid-East. What an easy way out. When you have no moral reluctance to do things like that you will. Blame everything on an event like that. Would that not get them out of this jam they have got themselfes in?

Arafat is warning of a pending war. Sharon is warning of the same thing. Most folks in the area are drawn into feeling the need to fight. Serious conflicting points of view, from people who drive hard deals. They dont budge. Just look into the faces of the areas leaders. This would

A Israel-Palistinian war would...
1.) Make an exuse other then the truth for the impending dollar inflation.
2.) Tank the U.S. Stock Market.
3.) The real Powers That Are will then have a perfect time to default COMEX, send gold to the moon, their true desired destination for it. They are playing a stacked hand. Sure of winning. Wars seem to be used only for their own personal world wealth advancement.
4.) On and on.
5.) The Powers That Are have many good reasons in their heads for a war at this time.

RockgrabberThey dont want you to hold gold#551786/2/01; 03:42:02

Adding to my last post thoughts. They are not going to try to talk you into buying the product they are seeing as the ultimate value. Were the Central Bank Auctions declared for the purpose of getting people into buying gold? Are they leasing all their gold so the public can buy it? Doubt that of course. I am just trying to help people understand they are not suppose to feel confident buying gold right now, as they (Powers That Are) dont want you buying gold they want. The more they hold the higher the price will go as well. The Powers That Are are not planning on selling their gold when it goes up. Why sell the ultimate store of wealth (concretized energy)? So if people are going to want what history says is money(concretized energy), then they are going to have to get it now, or have to pay huge for it, as the Powers That Are will be holding large gold lots and wont be selling, the only gold will be coming from miners, mines, peoples hordes, not Central Banks no more. If its about money and power, then you can bet Gold is in the spotlight. They have their eyes on gold big time. They are in the process of reaserting it as what it is, GOLD=MONEY=CONRETIZED ENERGY. Nobody can steal it from you buy making a hole bunch of it and renderring it valueless, like they can fiat dollars. You dont concretize your energy with fiat cash!!!~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Luckily they can print gold right now on paper, and now they have made a bunch of paper gold. Giving an illusionary price at this moment in history. Can you print gold???? They have. Is it real gold? I dont think so. Let me give an example of what it is they are doing.

My example will use coffee. For some strange reason it is easier to see with coffee then with gold I think (they are this good at brainwashing). OK I have lots of money say. I use the futures paper markets to create for myself a supply squeeeeze. First I lower to price of coffee buy selling a huge amount of contracts (not real coffee)((Not Yet)). Meanwhile by lowerring the price I have spurred demand. Meanwhile behind the scenes I am storring coffee(not as easy to store as gold) Physical Coffee. I keep selling paper contracts all the while along creating a temporary illusionary artificial low price. As long as physical coffee is around I keep buying it. As well as keep rolling over and selling paper coffee. Keep doing this untill the dynamic is exposed, and wammmoooo. A few importand things to add are these.
1.) you cant expect to make good on your deliveries.
2.) you need a name of some organization or something to hide behind. for it must take the loss and blame.

Rockgrabber(No Subject)#551796/2/01; 04:00:02

Mountain Gold, would have never known what hit when this all happens, without Trail Guide. Now he will just be surprised. Its easy to make fun of his predictions when gold is where it is at. He himself did say you never expose a market dynamic untill it does so on its own. They are just getting more time then even they thought possable. By the way his predictions are exactly on track. This paper market with everything that is happenning is still not able to get any legs. Without his insight I would be out maybe everything I have now in physical. The idea of leverage would have tricked me, Just like Goldman Sachs has been. The greedy Bankers have been caught in the game of leverage with no way out. Same as I would have. Gold Carry Trade did it to them I suppose. They were led by the most powerfull men in the world, who have a great respect for the monetary value of gold. The greedy bankers did not......aaahhh I am getting all off track from my posting this post.. I am off to research!! Happy trails my freinds!! Big gardening day tomaro. Going to need to catch at least an hour of sleep a little latter. I love my Trail Guide!!

Last thought... How in the heck does one use charts to make money in a market that so totally random?? Charting the Paper gold price is of no value it seems.

Netking@Rockgrabber#551806/2/01; 04:56:03

Re your post "Last thought... How in the heck does one use charts to make money in a market that so totally random?? Charting the Paper gold price is of no value it seems."
Mr Rockgrabber(55179),

A chart = A navigators map showing special features including fluctuations & tabulated unformation.

King Solomon was on record as being the wisest man there had been. He said what has been will be again, there is nothing new. History repeats my friend, in seasons, in cycles & events etc. The Bible says there is a time & a season for everthing, a time to sow, a time to reap. Charts help us see where we have come from & where we are going to. eg if we don't know where we've been, how to we know where we're heading? Charts help us to navigate, they can be a lamp unto our feet & a light unto our path.

Christian(No Subject)#551816/2/01; 05:05:01

Money is a tool of patriarchy that disunites us from one one another and contributes to the spiritual void. The core of the problem has to do with our departure from lawful money. Our credit cancer is terminal. Gold used to limit money creation by banks which in turn, limits bank profits. Leasing gold to be sold back made it possible to use the same gold over and over to lease to be sold. I can't lease my car to twenty different people at the same time but central banks can lease the same gold to twenty or more different people. Allmost all bank profits are unearned and result from fiat money. An increasing gold price threatens the banks sector's unearned profits. Either honest money prevails or fiat money prevails. The fiat has won out. We can not go back to the gold standard. We are up to our eyeballs in debt. and the only way out is to borrow more and more at a reduced interest rate. Much like what happened in Japan. ESF is exporting gold- most of it to BIS at twice the price then the commodity paper price which makes possible for the U.S. to have a never ending trade deficit. South Africa and Canadian gold miners are total idiots to self forward their underground reserves to the likes of Goldman Sachs. There is no reason why South African banks or Canadian banks can use that very same gold to settle their trade balances with BIS with gold at a much higher price. The trouble is an increasing gold price threaten the financial sector's unearned profits. So the banks formed a cartel to reprice credit creation gold held by them for that specific purpose. This price is determined by the amount of reserve requirements. We the people in this so called free enterprise country have the right to play in the controlled paper gold market, while the cartel uses the underground free market where gold trades at a much higher price. We are not allowed in. There is one thing we can do and that is do what they are doing but a little different. Use the gold to attract certificates of deposits and use those deposits to make loans with. It is not leveraged like what the central banks are doing but at least THEY will not get the interest payments. I have found that people are willing to lend me money at 3% if that money is backed by gold and they have the right to 50% of the profits on the gold should the price rise. I use the money to buy land which I resell and carry the loan at 10%. I like to buy a large lot cheap- split it up and sell high. It is like a Goldman Sachs IPO where they take a private company private by buying the private shares for $1.00 and sell it to the stupid public those same shares for $10.00. I can give you a list of companies on the OTC where Goldman Sachs purchased shares for 2 cents each and unloaded them to the public for $3.00 or better each. Then the company has a forward split and after the split Goldman will naked short the stock back down to 2 cents. Then the company has a reverse split to stay listed or goes under. This is capitalism at its worst.
dragonflyET#551826/2/01; 05:08:28

ET - I look forward to further displays of your prowress and skill. It looks like a tag team thing with ORO sailing in off the ropes. Thanks for the chuckle. The wife even came over to see what was up. I don't think y'all should settle for fiat if it comes down to it. A bag of gold perhaps?

Take er easy,

Black BladeOH WHAT A MESS!#5518306/02/01; 07:47:22

By William F. Buckley Jr.


The monsoon of data and analysis and ululation over the energy problem has the effect of obscuring first principles. First principles, to be sure, don't always work. They are largely ignored in wartime, for instance. But since we are not at war, we tend to magnify lesser problems and to appropriate military rhetoric in discussing them, as of course the wars on poverty, drugs, racism, etc. If we were at war, we would reorder our priorities and subordinate our complaints. Gratefully we aren't at war, but this shouldn't mean that we have license to neglect priorities that are built into the market systems.

Black Blade: I always found William F. Buckley Jr. Interesting and thought provoking. Sort of like ORO and TG out sedatives ;-)

lamprey_65Gold Weekly#5518406/02/01; 07:48:58

We're recovering from poor quality buying above $270 a few weeks ago. I'm looking for a successful attempt to hold above the $270 mark sometime this month.

Accumulation continues in mining stocks...a good sign.

Black BladeIraq to Stop Crude Oil Exports Mon.#5518506/02/01; 07:52:02


BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Iraq announced Saturday that it will halt oil exports under a U.N.-sponsored program starting Monday to retaliate for U.N. decision to extend oil-for-food restrictions. It was not immediately clear whether the decision would affect separate exports to Turkey and Jordan. On Saturday, Iraq stopped pumping oil through a pipeline running to Turkey's Mediterranean coast, but Turkey's Anatolia news agency said officials cited ``insufficient production and a drop in stocks'' as reason for the halt.

Black Blade: Yawn. Threats…Ho Hum. Hey Saddam - Fish or Cut Bait!

Leighmegatron#5518606/02/01; 07:56:43

Re: Weekly World News article. The sad thing is that few people have any idea about what gold is even doing in Fort Knox and why it's important to have it. The article, to its credit, described the gold as a nest egg and said it was sold off to pay the country's debts. I suspect people are going to say "so what?" and pass the article by.

On a similar note, my husband and I want to donate to a charity we like. We want to give them some gold to hold on to as a nest egg. But this week gold's been doing so poorly, and I'm almost embarassed to offer it. They'd probably consider it a nonperforming asset and wish to get rid of it quickly.

auspecChapman On Soros#5518706/02/01; 08:08:53

From LeMetropole Cafe

Just who is George Soros? He is the man who is leading the Gold Syndicate, which is challenging the Gold Cartel that has been suppressing gold prices for 15 years. Soros has made huge financial gains by speculating against western banks and governments. He takes his wealth and under the cloak of philanthropy, he robs the unsuspecting. This time it may be the central banks. He was responsible for the Bank of England withdrawing from the Exchange Rate Mechanism in 1993, by attacking the pound. In the process he made $1 billion. He survived W.W.II in Hungary by obtaining false papers and helped the Gestapo identify and expropriate the property of wealthy fellow Jews. He is quite proud of this accomplishment. When asked about the war years he has answered it was dirty work but someone had to do it. Since that time he attacked the currencies of Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and Mexico. The last time gold ran up he made it known he was long and after a reasonable run exited the market. We haven't heard from George as yet, so he must still be accumulating his position. Once that is accomplished he'll blatantly influence the upward course of gold.

George Soros is a global financial operator whose career was launched by the Rothschilds. He represents the visible side of a secret network of private elitist financial interests centered in England. George is a front man for the financial aristocracy. Frequent partners have been Marc Rich, deceased spectator Sir James Goldsmith, deceased banker Edmond Safra and a who's who in private banking, stock brokerage and politics in Europe and America. George's extraordinary success is attributable to his connections and access to some of the most important government and elitist channels in the world. George's reentry into the gold market tells us most of the bullion bank shorts are being covered. Some central banks will be hung out to dry, shorts will be decimated with producers who are short. The main impetus though behind Mr. Soros is the Rothschilds, who are at the heart of the world gold trade. George is their front man. If we gave you all the links to the chain of players it would take 20 pages. There are always several reasons for the elite's actions through front men such as Soros. When he was allowed to attack the pound it was to weaken continental Europe's economic stability. It has been British strategy for hundreds of years to not have economic linkage with continental Europe or Russia. Surprisingly Soros is quite close to the circles of George Bush in the United States Intelligence community and finance. Soros has 19 charitable foundations some of which have aided the IMF in applying economic shock therapy to Eastern Europe, which allows him and his fellow elitists to loot the resources of large parts of Eastern Europe. He was assisted in Russia by Harvard economist Jeffery Sachs. Soros works with the CIA and MI-6 in foreign operations in places such as Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Belgrade, Serbia. As you can see George gets around and he has admitted numerous times that he has advance information. George is allowed to make financial killings, the product of which is then used for the political agenda of financial globalists to eventually implement world government. George is a true Machiavellian.

BelgianCPM THE MOST INSPIRING FORUM#5518806/02/01; 09:10:52

Impossible to give a response to all aspects of Gold that are covered by a growing number of posters. Just trying to find out if something hasn't been said before. A very difficult job. Many Thanks to all of you.
escapethematrixAL Fulchino......RE:.... #55169#5518906/02/01; 09:26:21

I was simply trying to help you understand, the "Western-Mindset" TG refers to is one of valuing credit and leverage over the underlying physical product from which the credit and leverage is derived. It seems to me that "E-gold" will just turn into a new manifestation of an old game, which now nears it's end. Of course they will eventually inflate the supply, as history has shown time and again. IMHO, it would appeal especially to "Western-Minds", which is exactly why the current Comex shell game has been so successful in duping aforementioned "Western-Minds" into dumping their physical to perpetuate the game.

If you can be made "to feel inferior", the feeling is most likely due to your own psychological issues.
You ask "Did we invent this mind-set?" I would say that the general "Western-Mind" populace was more duped into it by a corrupt Government/ Big Business/ Bought and paid for Media conglomerate taking advantage of the "American Mind-Set" of wanting instant gratification with minimal, if any effort.

The ridiculous, comparisons which comes after that statement just shows a hyper-sensitive emotional response. Maybe that's why you feel, in your own words, "inferior". Perhaps it's because of the "subliminal attacks" thrust upon you by CNN?? Better turn off your TV, AL. As I stated before, you seem blinded to the truth by your limited, nationalistic perceptions. And no, I do not respect the Fed, Greenspan, the IMF, World Bank, or for that matter the pathetic, mindless American media.

Personally, I do respect the thoughts, efforts, and dedication of TG/Another, and yes, Randy. Does that make you feel "inferior", too?? In reality, only AL Fulchino can make Al Fulchino feel "inferior" or anything else. No one has that power….only your own mind. Nor have I ever heard TG/Another, or Randy make denigrating statements about any people as a whole. In fact they have gone out of their way to point out the exact opposite, in direct contrast to certain posters here constantly complaining about "Socialist European Bureaucrats".

At the end of your post, you say: "I guess I made my point". The only point I see is that you have some emotional issues to deal with to help you understand what has been written. You seem to take things too personally, or as an attack on you, or on Americans, which is just IMHO, silly. And did you not ask "Who is better at keeping their Gold than Americans, or Westerners?" It's quite simply….Just about everyone else in the World, who see Gold in a different context. Sorry, did the truth hurt you?? Good luck to you, sir.

Lastly, Neither TrailGuide, Another, or Randy need me to defend them. I respect all their thoughts and efforts, and to show that, don't tend to comment on what they say until I fully grasp it. You should try that sometime.

To all: Have A Nice Day!!

Belgian@ Auspec#5519006/02/01; 09:51:36

The Chapman story at Le Métropole. Maybe co-incidence, but my morning post (a very long one) got lost and didn't had the courage to rewrite it. It was sort of introduction to this chapman story. I have been alluding to this kind of modus operandi before. This is very high probability stuff.
Marc Rich with strong Antwerp (Belgium) roots, originates from the Diamont community. Feel free to explore the unthinkable with lots of imagination, when naughty, naughty boys like M.R. are involved. Similar adventures have been practiced with Aluminium (Alusuisse) and Cobalt (Congo-ex Zaire-Bush territory). Is all this part of the answer on...give me one reason for not buying Gold ? Have a very nice weekend, inspector !

WarrenLife long work down the drain for so many that trusted the smiling ones.#5519106/02/01; 10:23:20

Where will we stand when the money is gone:

I am a lurker and I have posted only twice before.My age would surprise many of you. Let me just say I remember seeing things in my life that would make you youngsters have the hair standing straight up.

I would also like to say all of you have the right ideas about silver and gold , But tunnel vision. You are looking only down a one way street.

Me,I have silver and gold and other things necessary for living. After all living will be your main concern when the stock market and financial markets break down. Many of you will wish you were living in 1929.Believe me, have you seen films showing the hard times during the greatest depression this world have ever known.

Now, Back in my younger days I went into business mowing lawns and helping farmers and any other odd job I could find. I saved enough money to buy an old truck back in the early fifties and started washing windows cleaning up trash and any other job I could do. My wife and I have been married fifty one years, sent three daughters to college who later married great husbands and beautiful children. All three are very successful.I worked for a company a whole year free to learn a business. Getting a job then and now is like nite and day, and an hour wages was .35 to.50 cents an hour.Ninty nine percent of the people had to raise a garden to get through the year. Remember there was not any electric refrigerators and automatic washings machines and all the things that make things eaiser today.It took twenty four hours a day just to survive. Many elder people would have starved without the help of their neighbors.

Have you thought about all the terrible things you would see if the price of gold goes to 30,000. an ounce. This is not 1929 and not every person has a garden, Or know how to plant one,They certainly do not have gold or silver in their hands.

The breakdown will come and I feel soon. I must be ready to care for my family and neighbors regardless how stupid they are.A live dog is better than a dead lion.

The my part.In 1979 my very high paying company started to fold due to lack of business. Unemployment was 34% in my area. My wife and I had to make a decision about what to do about our employees.
These people had been with me for a long time and was on call twenty four hours a day. All had a big part of our business being a sucessful business. My wife and and I cut our salary to the place where it was like starting all over again. We keep every employee and fed hungry people and kids until we were down to our last twent five thousand dollars. All the trucks and equipment had been sold to pay the people that had worked for us. Many of our large accounts went bankrupt.

How many companies will go bankrupt unlike me that have companies that are vital to our very surival.

As for me the load was too heavy to carry and I ended up disabled and savings spent on medical bill that was set aside to live a good life after retirement.

I want you to remember you are never in control,NEVER. You can do your best, but never in control of your life or finances.
It makes no difference whether you hold gold or silver the only thing is that it has to be something people canno't live without. There is a lot of things more valuable

This will not be like the eighties when we had somewhat sound money where you could trade your gold and silver for and come out a very rich person.

There is a way to be in control- Which means cleaning house of evey politican that makes your decision for you. That passes laws that the people are always straining to uphold.

Good luck

Just thought you might like a little information of one that thought he had everything planned to the last nickel.

auspecBelgian#5519206/02/01; 10:30:34

More Chapman & Some rc Thrown in for Good Measure

Belgian-- That is a major pain when a long post is lost and we have to express ourselves in a choice manner. Here is a little more from Chapman out of Cafe:

"The dollar cannot retain its lofty heights forever in the face of the biggest money creation in 20 years. Gold, nor anything else for that matter, cannot be manipulated forever. The natural price mechanism of the market always wins out. As the Gold Syndicate accumulates its core position in gold, the Gold Cartel will find it harder and harder to suppress the metals price. As always after gold shares selling at $8.00 to $10.00 a share are over $100.00 the public will begin to buy. There are only about $50 billion in gold shares out there. Buying by institutions over several days will take out the floats in these issues. Central banks will probably never get the gold back they have leased; they'll get dollars instead, robbing citizens of their real wealth. Once they are out of gold in five to ten years, they will have totally lost control of the gold market. They never thought that once their gold was gone people would make a conscious choice and for most it won't be fiat national currencies or euros, it will be gold. That means all their fiat currencies will collapse. The physical gold market is getting smaller versus fiat dollars. Large owners of US dollars, such as China with over $200 billion if Hong Kong were included, would naturally want to sell dollars for gold for economic as well as political reasons. The gold carry trade is dead at 2.5% lease rates. As mines go out of production and exploration dries up production will at best stay about the same, so there won't be production surprises. All in all gold has not been a better buy in 15 years and that is why it's headed higher."

"China State News states that the People's Republic will be deregulating gold trading inside China later this year, increasing demand by 600 tons a year."

"Even more quickly than gold ran up from $265.00 an ounce it fell from $288.00 an ounce back to $265.00. The same crew that always drives it down did so again, J. P. Morgan Chase and Goldman Sachs. They were innocently assisted by rollover contracts from June to August. June open interest fell 17,034 contracts, while August increased by 16,180 contracts. The Gold syndicate pulled in its wings and allowed the Cartel to hit the market and why not. They'll start buying again at $265.00, which is smart. They'll just take it up again even more cheaply. The Gold Cartel may have won the battle of the last two weeks, but we'll win the war. As we said before, big inflation is in the air as the 10 and 30-year yields move up to new recent highs. The physical market is still tight as the South African Chamber of Mines announces gold production fell 9.2% in the first quarter from 3.48 to 3.16 million ounces. As you know leasing rates are still around 2.5%. Nothing has changed. We've lost an opportunity, but there will be many more to come."

A post was put up at EagleRanch by rc {does rc post here?} that I thought was excellent:
"At first I thought that CBs started dishoarding for profit purposes which in the long term turned out to feed on itself with no end in sight. Now, they must keep dishoarding short of producing a gold price explosion. Which brings them nowhere. At some point they will run out of gold and get the result they want to steer clear of. They may be plain dumb but I am not that sure anymore."
*****"I am leaning towards a more sinister explanation. What about depressing gold price while progressively transferring nations' gold reserves to a private priveleged group? And all the gold they had to sell will be retrieved as they take control of the producing mines by forcing them to sell their production forward?"***** END {My ***emphasis}

Comments: Belgian, I feel you will agree with much of what Chapman and rc have stated here, no? I agree largely becasuse I am permanently on the NWO kick, that's the way I see things. What do they care if US or UK loses its national treasure? They don't want multiple nations with independent treasures that allow for autonomy. If they ALL squandered their gold, they would simply have to band together, strength in numbers. Of course not all countries are eager to give up national sovereignty, China for prime example.
Now, as far as the takeover of various producers, this gold is NOT going back in CB coffers, that's not the point. It will find its way into the hands of the various PE. The resource grab. Much like the Congo, where did those resources eventually find their 'home'?
It is a terribly cynical way to look at life's events, but unfortunately it is true.
And Switzerland seems such a pristine country!!
Soros/Rich/Saffra? What's the difference? I for one greatly appreciate the connecting of the links by Chapman to the Rothschilds etc.
May your keyboard overflow with perfect recall!
Inspector Cl.

escapethematrixAn interesting observation from Mr. Chapman.....#5519306/02/01; 11:11:39

Here's another snippet from Chapman at LeMet:

"European foreign direct investment outflows are a major problem for the euro zone and a major plus for the US. It funds the US current account deficit. In February the EU had a surplus of $1.96 billion, but in March it again had a deficit of $34.7 billion. It could be most of this jump was caused by euro-zone companies funding investment programs in their US subsidiaries. If this proves to be the case the investment boom is unlikely to last for very long."

I would think that this prop job will last exactly until everything is in place for either the physical birth of the Euro, or until the Comex default. I believe that TG has, in the past, alluded to "A sequence of events" which will lead up to "the evolving transition."

Christian(No Subject)#5519406/02/01; 11:11:54

Money has neither value nor use value and so it is not a commodity. However our pennies, nickels, dimes, quarters and half dollars are metals. However the metal in the coin is worth much less then their nominal value. The gold market is unique in that it is used as an industrial commodity, jewlry and as a monetary asset. Privat market credit creation gold shows persistant tendency to rise above the commodity paper gold. Before 1973 central banks would trade gold among themselves at $35.00 per ounce but would not trade with the privat market which was around $45.00 at the time. Now it is the other way around. In 1976 special drawing rights (SPR) was established as a new reserve asset of ARTIFICIAL GOLD (paper gold) which is not used as a reserve asset. This was in 1976 proclaimed as a NEW INTERNATIONAL ECONOMIC ORDER. It's purpose is to denote the role of gold. It is this paper gold that we the people are allowed to trade, buy or sell. This gold was never intented to be used for monetary purposes. However gold is gold. Credit creation gold now trades at a much higher price and is not on the books. Example Golman Sucks will never in their financials they send to the share holders or government their gold obligations. According to FED U.S.A has around a $28 trillion debt and with the gold loans it is around $58 trillion. The mean interest rate is around 9%. Our GDP is around $5 trillion and the interest on money is around $5.2 trillion. Therefore income cannot be dollarized except by becoming more debt. If however the dollars issued were non-debt or 0% interest rate like Japan had now for a long time it is actually possible to slowly work our way out. Much easier and quicker to default. Or do what is happening now and that is finance China to conquere us. Goldman Sucks is long on China stocks and shorting U.S. stocks. The love for money has no boundry. Especially when it is done with credit creation gold priced more then ten times the commodity price. Talk about a rigged set up. I am sure Goldman Sucks is worried about how many of our men and woman will have to die fighting the Chinese. Which has more value- a dead body or a handful of paper dollars???? Let us never forget that it was the gold confiscation money that financed Hitler. Presently and for some time now it is our gold that is financing North Korea and Iraq. Our Fort Knox gold at work.
Old YellerHey,kids,what time is it?#551956/2/01; 11:28:22

Looks like it could be repatriation time.

According to an article written by Kenichi Ohmae,Japan's leading management guru and appearing in The Daily Yomiuri,fixing Japan may break the US economy.From the story;

"Once capital flight occurs,the dollar will further decrease,causing even larger foreign exchange losses.This will not defer the capital exodus as liquidity will be a far more important issue than currency losses.

The next two or three months will see all of this happen and in just as much haste Bush will change his orders and reissue a command to Japan's leaders to put the brakes on change just as Clinton did.One big difference will be that Greenspan will probably go to the Congress to blame US instability on the Japanese depression,never mentioning that it was Japan that subsidized the long American euphoria that has now come to an end."

Gosh,the Maestro wouldn't do that,would he?

This excerpt is a just a small sample of the issues that Sean Corrigan,(one of my favorite FX analysts)tackles on this particular event(we hope)to soon garner the financial world's rapt attention.The other commentaries dealing with this subject are "Home Truths" and "Climb Niitakayama".

It appears as if this time it's different with Koizumi and the long awaited rebalancing may be close at hand.This may partially explain the peculiar gyrations in our favorite market.

Black BladePbs's Frontline to Air First Television Investigation of California Energy Crisis #551966/2/01; 11:53:38


BOSTON, June 1 /PRNewswire/ -- FRONTLINE and The New York Times join forces to investigate the story behind the California energy crisis in "Blackout," a new documentary airing Tuesday, June 5, at 10 P.M. on PBS (check local listings). Through interviews with utility executives, industry insiders, and state and federal officials, the one-hour documentary examines how profits of both power companies and energy-trading giants have soared amid a deregulation process that has produced blackouts and rate hikes for consumers. The program also explores why the federal government refused for months to intervene in the California crisis, as well as the rationale for dismantling the old system of utility regulation.

Black Blade: Could be interesting to see what spin is put on the energy crisis in Kalifornia. I suspect that many of the causes will be avoided in the report and the populist view will prevail. It is PBS after all. Though Frontline just might investigate the energy crisis in depth. We shall see.

Black BladeNGI Reports June Natural Gas Prices Plummet#551976/2/01; 12:18:11


DULLES, Va.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 1, 2001--Following on a month of mild weather with robust storage additions, natural gas spot prices for June dropped more than $1 from first-of-the-month May quotes at most points across the country, with the majority of prices coming in between $3.60 and $3.80. The June prices also were significantly below same time last year levels, Natural Gas Intelligence reported today.

It didn't require a crystal ball to predict the price drop for June baseload gas, since prices had been steadily declining in the May aftermarket. The mild weather through much of the country (except California) and lack of air conditioning load has allowed eye-popping 100 Bcf-plus storage fills for four weeks in a row. Storage levels, which had been below normal for more than a year, have climbed out of the basement, finally topping last year's levels in the survey for the week ending May 25, announced Wednesday by the American Gas Association. As the storage fill level increased throughout May, the June futures contract declined, going off the board Tuesday at $3.738, or roughly $1.20 below the close of the May contract.

Black Blade: If the weather holds there is a slim possibility that we could squeeze through summer relatively unscathed, as only California will face any serious threats of rolling blackouts. If the average US weather and temperatures should return to normal, then all bets are off. Still as we roll into summer, NG prices could rise in anticipation of increased NG use for power generation and winter heating use.

JMB$79.95 for a year's subscription.#551986/2/01; 12:30:05

Bob Chapman...the used car salesmam. What a joke.

So "Geoge" is a Jew who helped the Gestapo....oh I see, the Mossad just hasn't had time to ventilate the back of his head. What's next?...the Rothchilds are secret Episcopalians so they work with him too.

So where's the follow up to "Greenspan tells the banks they have until June 1st to clean up their gold shorts."?

I really like the ending where he touts his favorite gold stocks. What a menace!

MO VER MEGWarren#551996/2/01; 12:45:38

Every once in a while I find a message seemingly directed at me. Such is your last post. Thanks for sharing your wisdom.


Orville GoldenbacherWarren (06/02/01; 10:23:20MT - msg#: 55191)#552006/2/01; 12:48:02

Warren, nice post!

I've been thinking about Gold as a store of labor and the $ value of time spent working to earn an ounce of gold..

Say, in 1950, when gold was valued @ $34.72 an ounce, labor-the average worker made $.50 per hour. That worker would have to work almost 70 hours to afford one ounce of gold.

Now, in 2001, gold is valued @ $270 per ounce and the average hourly pay is $10 per hour. Worker's now only have to work 27 hours to afford one ounce of gold!

Back in the 1800's when worker's made only .10-.15 cents an hour and gold was valued @ $20.65 a worker might have to work 150-200 hours to afford to purchase one fine ounce of gold.

Times sure change, don't they?

Now, down the page they talk about why charts are important, and as Netking wisely pointed out:

"Netking (6/2/01; 04:56:03MT - msg#: 55180)"King Solomon was on record as being the wisest man there had been. He said what has been will be again, there is nothing new. History repeats my friend, in seasons, in cycles & events etc. The Bible says there is a time & a season for everthing, a time to sow, a time to reap. Charts help us see where we have come from & where we are going to. eg if we don't know where we've been, how to we know where we're heading? Charts help us to navigate, they can be a lamp unto our feet & a light unto our path."

We are presently on a down cycle, waiting to turn up, just goes to show what a real bargain gold is right now.

I have seen many people work their lives away, only to be cast aside in their "golden" years by their employers, without insurance. Spending their lifes wages on medical bills and meds. It makes me angry sometimes thinking about it!

Thanks for the nice post, hope to see you around more often.


auspecSkolnich#552016/2/01; 13:17:21


2] And, suppose it becomes widely publicized that, through treasonous use of Red Chinese funds laundered through the Chicago markets, that the Bush Family bought top Democrats in southern Florida, to "steal" the crucial Florida Electoral College vote? [Again, see our website items on comparison to the 1876 Election and Florida. By the way, the British aristocracy wants the turmoil, since they have tried repeatedly since the War of 1812, to destroy the U.S. Government and to try to revert this Continent and its people back to being subjects of British colonies. The Brits played a role in the political assassination of three U.S. Presidents who resisted British efforts to divide up this nation, Presidents Abraham Lincoln, James Garfield, and William McKinley. The Elder Bush and his sons, George W., Jeb, and Neil, have a joint account with the Queen of England through her private bank, Coutts Bank London. See the secret Federal Reserve wire transfer records, in our website series "Greenspan Aids and Bribes Bush". Together, they launder Hundreds of Billions of dollars from the illicit dope trafficking, weapons smuggling, and other contraband.] END

Comment: Maybe we can get JMB to 'ventilate' a bit more?

Al FulchinoEsacpe the Matrix #552026/2/01; 13:37:25

Two comments for you. One. The response you gave indicates I have gotten in your head. You can deny it of course, but I see it. And I could take the post you just placed here and really tear it up and you along with it, and round and round we can go. I won't even though I would be thoroughly entertained. Chuckle if you will, and declare it your victory. The visciousness is yours to keep inside your head and heart. If it wants to come out of your mouth too, it is no sweat to me, I smiled all the way through the typing of the post of last nite. and this is no exception. Perhaps the truth will hurt if you look in the mirror. <wink>

Secondly, on occasion I am a betting man. Your timely entry and defenses indicate me that you are no ordinary poster. I will take my chances and say that you know the Tower well. I am a risk taker, yes.

JourneymanGreat idea!! @Curious #: 55174#552036/2/01; 13:42:47

Hi Curious!

Excellent idea - - - anything that would cause "the folks" to use gold, especially large quantities, could well set us back on the path to honest money.

This plan, incidentally, causing people to buy (and subliminally price) things - - - in this case cars - - - in gold is an example of what I mean by "transactional gold." Nothing arcane, just gold used as the medium of exchange in transactions.

It isn't necessary to officially return to a "gold standard" to return to honest money, it's just necessary to have a viable alternative to fiat, one with proven superior performance, competing with it.

Then the bank/government cliques will either shape up their fiat promises or the competition will put them out of business. No sweat, no hassle, just like a mom-and-pop store trying to out-compete Wall-Mart.

Love it!! How about some more such ideas.

Incidentally, this is a really good one, because it could be structured to get gold to Japan and help them un-load treasuries. The best deals satisfy all parties - - - at least the ones DIRECTLY involved.

High regards,

Black BladeHYDROCARBON MAN - OIL, NATURAL GAS, AND GOLD#552046/2/01; 13:55:10

Recently Dick Cheney presented the long awaited report by the Energy Task Force. He said: "Over the next 20 years, just meeting projected demand will require between 1,300 and 1,900 new power plants." In its report, the energy task force headed by Vice President Cheney recommends building generating facilities that will use a variety of ways to run them, including coal, natural gas, hydro-electric and nuclear power. The fact is that virtually all new power generation planned, proposed and recently constructed is all natural gas fired. Natural gas is clean burning and more "environmentally Friendly," and therefore more desirable.

California is attempting to resolve its electricity shortage by building new power plants. But bringing them online, even in a mad dash to prevent rolling blackouts and economic collapse, won't solve the problem without development of other energy resources. President George W. Bush, May 11, 2001: "The new plants that are being brought on stream in California are going to be driven by natural gas. And we need more natural gas to make sure there is fuel for those plants."

Some claim that conservation is the answer. Some energy analysts recommend an energy agenda to include greater use of new technology to improve energy efficiency, ways to increase energy resources and reduce bottlenecks, and government incentives to encourage more conservation by consumers. Sorry Charlie, conservation is only part of the answer. In California, claimed to be the most energy conserving state in the US, they still face the prospect of a disaster because of insufficient energy supply. Other issues that plague California is the decaying energy infrastructure and lack of a planned methodical approach to construct new transmission lines, fuel pipelines, and ideally located power generating facilities.

A more comprehensive approach is needed to address the energy crisis. The 163-page proposal from the Energy Task Force includes more than 100 recommendations, from more drilling for oil and natural gas, to reviving nuclear power, to increasing tax incentives for conservation and developing renewable energy sources. The innovations are needed to solve what President Bush describes as the nation's worst energy crisis since the 1970s. President George W. Bush: "These events are challenging what had become a fact of life in America: the routine, everyday expectation that when you flick on a light switch, the light will come on." True enough, when asked where energy comes from, many people simply don't know or say "that plug in the wall." Federal energy officials are predicting summer-long power outages in California, and these people will probably try to beat on the wall.

Where will the fuel for these new and planned power plants come from? During the last 12 months the number of working gas drill rigs has increased over 50% yet natural gas production has increased only about 1%. Chronic natural gas shortages are likely to be the norm for the future as this too is a finite resource. We will now have to work on more costly sources of natural gas in order to meet our energy needs. These costs will ultimately be passed on to the end user. That will result in higher cost for goods and services, and therefore "inflation" will result. Without a large source of "cheap" energy to fuel an expanding economy, I would venture to say that the end result is more likely to be "stagflation."

In the past when we experienced an energy crisis, it was oil. Oil was withheld from the West for political reasons by the Arab OPEC members. That problem was easy to remedy when the spigot was turned and oil was allowed to flow. This time really is different, because the current energy crisis is not solved by turning on a spigot. These are fundamental problems arising from an increasing demand, and a shrinking supply. This energy crisis is pervasive and permeates throughout the entire economy. The last energy crises (oil related) resulted in serious bouts of inflation. The best investments of the day were energy, real estate, and GOLD. In 1973 during the Arab oil embargo, gold spiked to over $125.00 per ounce, and in 1979 to 1980 during the period when the Shah of Iran was overthrown and subsequent Iranian Revolution, the price of gold spiked to over $850.00 per ounce. I would suggest that we are due for a repeat of history.

A quick back of the envelope calculation using historical price of oil and price of gold relationships, can be applied to natural gas as well. When considering that 6 MFC is about equal to 1 bbl of light sweet crude (West Texas Intermediate price equivalent) at about $4.00 per MFC is about $24.00 per barrel oil (a bit low for comparison to the current crude oil price). So this comparison is on the conservative price estimation. Using a traditional historical 15 barrels of oil to the equivalent price of one ounce gold, it should conceivably translate to a current historical average where natural gas price in lieu of light sweet crude as a critical component of the energy picture should equate to about $360.00 per ounce of gold (also undervalued). Of course natural gas is currently undervalued due to the seasonal low between winter and summer and gold likely undervalued due to manipulative forces. We could easily see a low average (in my opinion) of natural gas at about $5.00 MFC this summer. That could equate to a price of $450.00 per ounce of gold. It gets even better with an inflation adjusted price for natural gas (from 1973) at $16.00 MFC, then gold should be priced at roughly $1440.00/oz. At an inflation adjusted price value of $10.00 MFC that roughly matches it past record high, we come up with a price of gold at about $2880.00/oz. I have made similar "back of the envelope comparisons before that is equally impressive using the price of oil in a previous post - "The Rise and Fall of Hydrocarbon Man."

From the post "The Rise and Fall of Hydrocarbon Man." Oil and Gold have had roughly a 15 barrels of oil to 1 ounce of gold ratio. If this ratio were to be stable, then at oil priced at the current $25.00/bbl then gold should be priced at $375.00/oz. At $35.00/bbl, gold should be valued at $525.00/oz. If oil were to be priced at $50.00/bbl as some sources expect will likely happen, then gold should rise to $750.00/oz. Oil at an inflation adjusted value of $140.00/bbl that roughly matches its past record high, then gold should reach $2100/oz.

Another way to look at the oil-gold relationship is to compare pricing during the 1973 Arab oil embargo and into 1974. Oil rose in price from $2.00/bbl in 1971 to $10.00/bbl in 1974, or a 500% increase in price. Following the relationship of the oil-gold ratio, an increase of 300% in the price of oil (similar to recent prices) should yield a price of $962.50/oz. for gold. A similar increase in the price of oil as the 1973 500% increase in the price of oil should yield a price of $1375.00/oz gold (based on a recent $275.00/oz gold and a projected $50.00/bbl oil). These back of the envelope calculations are based on the recent price of gold at $275.00/oz, which in my opinion is grossly undervalued, so it would appear upon closer examination that gold could and should increase much more in value. However one were to look at it, the oil:gold ratio appears to be out of balance and is due to readjust to the norm.

Considering that the current energy crisis is so pervasive and has the potential to explode like no other energy crisis that we have ever experienced and that as the US economy goes, so goes the World economy, the price of gold could head for valuations beyond one's wildest dreams. Of course this would occur under distressing economic conditions that also could deteriorate into a situation beyond one's worst nightmares. The main point of owning gold is as a form of portfolio survival insurance. Another important point is that there is something seriously amiss here when one considers that the price of gold in current US Dollar terms is grossly undervalued presumably due to manipulative forces in an attempt to hide the true effects of inflation on the US economy. Without the "cheap" energy to continue fueling the economic expansion, and depending on how the FED reacts with monetary expansion, we could easily slide into the economic abyss that would rival or even surpass the economic carnage of the "Great Depression" or "Weimar-Style Hyperinflation." Either way, energy, real estate, and GOLD look to do well. At least that is my take on it.

- Black Blade

RockgrabberPaper Gold Market and charting (NetKing Orvill Goldenbacher)#552056/2/01; 14:04:21

Yes thank you for your reply about charts. Yes most usefull they are. Very prudent tool for money management techniques, as well as for entry points and taking profits. However this Gold market is not the same. Reading a gold chart does nothing for me I feel. No matter what the price is, as I come into Money I will spend it to be gold untill COMEX defaults. Anyways when I was saying charting the gold market seems useless to me I still feel the same. Fundemental history in golds case is way more of use then some chart. History points gold to the future. When you look at golds chart does it explain a COMEX default to come? Does Golds chart show a new gold pricing system to come? If it does I dont see it on the charts, but I can with fundemental history. The only thing the gold chart is usefull for is to see it is manipulated.
auspecJourneyman#552066/2/01; 14:07:39

Another Idea

"I'll see your two grains and raise you two more grains."
Best to you.

Peter AsherOrville Goldenbacher msg#: 55200) Warren msg#: 55191)#552076/2/01; 14:40:40

& @ J-Man, Curious and JMB

Where are you guys getting 50 cents an hour for mfg. labor in the fifties?

In 1950 I had a summer job clerking in a toy and hobby shop for the then minimum wage of seventy five cents. In the summer of ‘51 I remember my California aunt lamenting that every kid who came by to do yard work wanted a dollar per.

Warren: your narrative of your working life starting in the fifties reads precisely as if it took place in the thirties. How ‘bought a re-write?

Journeyman, Curious: Do you know the movie "The Power of One"? More later.

JMB, Chapman doesn't get it on where money comes from. Or, he has an agenda. More on that later also. -- The Boss Lady is right now giving me a lecture on where money comes from and I better get another drawing out before posting more.

donnemuir@Auspec #55138 #552086/2/01; 15:06:35

" It ain't gonna happen"

I have been offering subdivision lots by direct mail for 150 0z.900 or better gold or equivalent in pre-33 coins for the past few months...So far no one has offered gold but one respondent offered silver and diamonds. We will talk silver but diamonds are not anybody's best friends.

As a point of interest, I've had a couple of folks who communicated an interest in doing the same with their own properties but were unsure if it was "legal" to ask for gold in trade for property.

It never ceases to amaze me at how easily TPTB can brainwash "their subjects".

The offer will soon be posted on my website, currently being redesigned.


Al FulchinoBlack Blade (6/2/01; 13:55:10MT - msg#: 55204)#552096/2/01; 15:46:14

nice post as is your tradition
JMBAUSPEC#552106/2/01; 15:50:34


You devious bugger you. I was lunging toward the key board when I caught your last sentence. Good one, you got me.

Chapman, Skolnich, and Rense...I bet they all came from the same loonie bin. What is it with these guys anyway, a dietary deficiency? Maybe they all smoke KGB (Killer Green Bud).

So the Brits helped Booth knock off Lincoln. man o man, that's a doozy.

auspecdonnemuir#552116/2/01; 16:08:52

Go Guy! Make it happen!
axAnisimov Has It Right - Danger of the Golden Yuan#552126/2/01; 16:22:05


from escapethematrix (06/01/01; 16:53:12MT - msg#: 55157):

" China has had good balance in trade with USA during many years - 41% of
Chinese export goes to USA.
The Chinese government has not less than $400 billion including firms’
capitals, belonging to ethnic Chinese out Chinese out of the state's
borders (these firms were created according to the line of the Chinese
government and with participation of special services). China can buy
all gold stock of USA, which is 8 thousand tons with its dollar volume.
What refers to gold stock of China itself, information about them is
different. According to official data, gold stock of China has not
nearly changed during 20 years and it does not exceed 400 tons.
According to other estimations, it is much more. So the estimation of
A.N. Anisimov is that it is larger American one in two folds that means
it exceeds 15 thousand tons. It increases to 600-1000 tons annually.
Difference between statistic data can be explained by the fact, that
Chinese is satisfied with their underestimation of potential by the
The further growth of China's power is to lead to the fact, that Chinese
currency will take the place of the dollar, at least in Asian-Pacific
Region. The conception of introducing golden Yuan is worked out by the
Chinese government. China will become one of the largest world creditors
during the period of 2010-2020 years.
It seems that anti-dollar policy of China satisfies other countries of
Asian-Pacific Region as well. Asian crisis, which was provoked by
Americans and Soros in particular, stroke the currency but did not bring
much damage to Yuan and its "brother" - Hong-Kong dollar. Chinese from
ASEAN countries, according to words of A.N. Anisimov promised to ruin
Soros because of his actions (readers familiar with Asian films know
that such promises can not be forgotten at the East). The Ambassador of
Malaysia Datuk Yahya Baba, who made a speech at the Special Business
Meeting also complained at provoked by Americans and IMF crisis and
remarked, that "Asia waits for Russia".
It depends on out government, whether it will be able to use this chance
for rebuilding of former influence of Russia in these countries.
1. American dollar loses positions of the basic reserve currency of the
2. U.S. chiefs will use any means including politically incorrect for
keeping leadership of its currency;
3. Financial authorities are going to search for the alternative for
American currency in different regions of the world. The interest to
euro, multi-currency standard and gold increases.
4. Golden Chinese Yuan has very wide chances to become one of the
important world reserve currencies.
Review is written according to materials of
Vice editor-in-chief of the "Valutny speculant" journal

Sergey Dishlevsky "


see previous posts:

ax (05/19/01; 12:41:47MT - msg#: 53997)
With the price of gold rising there may be little time for
the U.S. Treasury to begin buying gold to augment its gold
reserves at reasonable prices. The national interest requires that the
U.S. treasury maintain gold reserves proportional with U.S. Gross
Domestic Product and the status
of the US Dollar as the leading world currency.
Now is the time to do this while the price of gold is still low. There
is evidence that China wishes to raise its gold
reserves. China who is already constructing a huge manufacturing base,
could then have a substantial gold base upon which to push the Yuan into
a prime world currency.
From a previously posted message, the following is reiterated as it is
still applicable:

ax (2/24/2001; 17:57:46MT - msg#: 48889)
Increase U.S.Treasury Gold Reserves
To restart the economy on an upward growth cycle again, the money supply
must be increased, interests rates lowered, and tax cuts legislated. In
order that this does not result in significant weakening of the
U.S.Dollar a portion of the budget surplus should be used to increase
U.S.Treasury Gold Reserves.
Boosting U.S. gold reserves would give internal stability to a the
U.S.currency which then can be safely increased in supply with lower
interest and tax rates leading to a resurgence of industrial production
and a restoration of a more favorable trade balance by increased
exports. It would be in the best interest of the United States.

Peter Asherdonnemuir (msg#: 55208)#552136/2/01; 17:05:24

Haven't seen you on board much. From your post awhile back regarding a Senatorial Town Meeting, I gather we are neighbors. I'm in the local phone book. Say your from the Forum right away, she's tough on sales calls. (Ask Al) (:-)
ChristianGold Manipulation#5521406/02/01; 17:32:44

Gold market manipulation is about preserving the U.S. dollar. The dollar must not be allowed to depriciate against gold. The only way USA can manage the world reserve currency is to print that currency and buy its way in the world. To operate this paper scam it has to sell down physical assets that compete with the dollar. Oil wants gold but gold is in danger of non-delivery. So oil rises and makes the dollar yell. Gold rises and then oil is in danger of non-delivery. The trouble is that commodities are traded as paper markets. No commodities show a true supply and demand market price. Most producers are operating with year to year losses because their physical assets are being sold down by the paper traders. Central Banks are going to practice usury and participate in loaning money at interest. Central Banks are leasing gold to be sold for which they mostly buy back to use as credit creation gold priced at a much higher price. It used to be that gold made possible for the sovereign individual to empower themselves to trade and creat credit among themselves, and be "free" of central bank manipulation and usury as specified in the constitution as sovereign nation of sovereign individuals using gold and silver as a medium of exchange. But now we the people are allowed to trade with paper gold where the price is controlled while only the central banks are allowed to trade in credit creation gold. It is ok for the central banks to buy $270 commodity gold and turn it into $2700 credit creation gold without having to pay one dime in capital gains tax. We the ordinary fools do not own a central bank to profit from turning commodity gold into credit creation gold. But even if we did the IRS wants its share of capital gain. The quantity of money and the interest rates are set by the monetary authority that fit the financial profits of those who own the central banks for their interest and profit. By having a paper public gold and a banker credit creation gold the banker can increase profits at the expense of the public. Right now the only real option the public has is use a copier to increase (give birth to) more pieces of paper taken from the original and pass it on to some unsuspecting fool. I see the Russians are getting good at it. They are actually using those copies as reserves to make digital loans which end up at Goldman Sachs.
Peter Asher@ Curios, Jorneyman & All#5521506/02/01; 18:36:59

Curious: Your plan appears flawless! That would really be an act of "Doing something about it." the beauty of it is that while at the start, the auto companies would be losing the 5% fiat, as the sales generated by the promotion caused the domestic POG to rise their holdings would appreciate. Logistically the thing should feed on itself. As the activity ran up the POG, people would scramble to get their gold tender in advance, as they became aware that the oz. price of the vehicle was decreasing with the rising POG.

J-Man, & All: What we're looking at here is a plan to put gold into CIRCULATION! This is much more powerful than ‘Hoarding" because it doesn't create an overhang. When gold is hoarded for ‘profit’ it will subsequently be sold for profit. however if increasing quantities are thrust into circulation then gold is replacing part of M-1. The demand for gold ‘as money’ would, I believe, far surpass the demand (certainly on the long term) for gold as a vehicle for profit. ‘Equilibrium’ POG should easily cross the $1000 mark in such an event

The key here is that there must be a motivation for people to acquire the gold to use as currency. I started with the idea of demanding gold when you have something unique to sell that can't be precisely found elsewhere. Sir Curious has added the incentive of relative fiat discount. donnemuir's mailing to 4000 folks produced no gold offers, probably because buyers in that price range do not tend to hoard gold and he naturally wasn't saying "gold only or no sale."

donnemuir; I failed to ask you if the 150 oz, was promoted as a discount.

My sense of this is "Stranger things have happened." "The Power of One" was about one man's thoughts and purpose being strong enough to instigate change. It may not take that many of us ‘Ones’ to infect this ‘jump on the trend" society with the "Gold Bug."

axTHE RIGHT WAY TO PRESERVE THE US DOLLAR#5521606/02/01; 19:08:04


As Christian said today:

"Gold market manipulation is about preserving the U.S. dollar."

(Christian (06/02/01; 17:32:44MT - msg#: 55214)
Gold Manipulation)

Yes it is true. That is one way of appearing to preserve the value of the USD - deriding and diminishing the value of what it is historically related to - GOLD.
For example, the current value of the dollar in terms of gold is:

$266.70/ oz. NY Gold Close 6-01-01 Fri

1 USD=1/$266.70=.0037495 oz gold=.0037495oz goldX 31.103 gm/oz =.1166206gm

1 oz = 31.103 grams Apothecary/ Metric (avoir dupois/metric is 1 oz= 28.35 gm)

So the current value of the USD = .1166206 grams of gold but if the price of
gold were to rise, say to $300/oz the value of the USD would correspondingly
drop to 1/300 X 31.103= .1026766 grams of gold.

A convenient reference point would be $311.03/ ounce at which 1 USD would
equal .10 grams of gold.

So, then, the lower the price of gold is the higher the relative value of the USD appears to be in terms of gold.

THAN LOWERING THE PRICE OF GOLD. All the latter does is give the US dollar
an illusion of value by increasing its relative - not its absolute - value.



This will have a particularly stabilizing effect on the value of the USD should
there be need , as there is now, to increase money supply and continue lower
interest rates, which will ultimately ( but with a time lag) stimulate the industrial
production, gross domestic output and exports which in the long term would make
the US currency maintain its strength.


donnemuirPeter Asher 55215#5521706/02/01; 20:04:43

No discount intended at 150 oz; it was my attempt to price the lots in "gold value"; notwithstanding my basis in dollars or the potential volatility of the POG. My sole purpose was to accumulate gold by trading a surplus asset.

Again, it is a great pleasure talking with and knowing that we are neighbors.


Phoenix RisingReplys to: beesting and Solomon Weaver#5521806/02/01; 20:40:54

beesting: Thank you for being. Place your hand in mine and let's go see what we shall find...

Solomon Weaver: Greetings! Your statement "The journey for me on this site is far beyond goes deep into the illusions that we can understand global economics" has intrigued/fascinated me all day. During my contemplations of it, have been continuously reminded of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." Needs further pondering....thank you for the thought!

Yes, June of 2001. The month of June was specifically named. When I (in my surprise) questioned it (the month of June), I was told that I have 3 months to prepare/protect myself financially. When I further questioned it, I was told that after June it would become very (prohibitively) expensive to acquire. I was also instructed to tell (warn) others, so that they also have the opportunity to prepare. The greatest treasures...are within. Expect the unexpected!

Galearis@ Ax#5521906/02/01; 20:59:32

Hi from the far north (smile)

Buying gold to "harden" the US dollar backing would require a LOT of gold. Currently the USD is worth about $.03 based on its gold reserves. If the US "bought" what is left of the ECB reserves the USD would double in value to $.06.

That's why the gold standard doesn't work. It is too limiting.



GalearisRe the Ansimov article#5522006/02/01; 21:09:40

Interesting article, but.....

Annual world production of miner gold is some 2,400 tonnes.
The Chinese would, in buying 600 to 1000 tonnes per annum, be in effect purchasing 25% to 42% of world production each year. I think someone would have noticed. I also think that the physical price would be a little higher,....


uponroofPUMP and DUMP Kebble/Blanchard Style?#5522106/02/01; 21:14:47

Good evening,

Just recieved this from an old friend who picked it off another forum. This poster (below) 'oswald' is purging his soul of past offenses, and at the same time apparently exposing what could be illegal anti-trust violations.

Is this for real? You be the judge.

I own shares of DROOY, and will continue to hold them despite the lopsided ratio of hype vs. bad performance (although I was impressed with the recent move).

If this is another skeleton in unk's closet, it brings to question if there are more being stashed today. Are there posters (both individuals and multiple posting disorder types-even moderators) working in concert to push it?


Food for thought
by: os10867mu

05/31/01 11:06 am EDT

Msg: 2037 of 2053

My dear fellow posters:

I finally understood there is no sense of humor on this Board. It may be true, there may be a lot of frustrated investors on this Board, who were "gypped" into buying DROOY at high prices, and are staying long in hope of recovery of their moneys. To those let me reveal
something I know, which will give you some pain relief.

The late Jim Blanchard, who died suddenly, wrote the Gold Newsletter. Kebble made a deal with the late Jim, several years ago, when Jim was in South Africa to promote DROOY in his Gold Newsletter. I happened to be in South Africa too, at that time, visiting my gold mining friends in that country. Kebble is known to be a very shrewd person
in South Africa, mostly with his own bank account. For some unknown reason, shorting in Drooy's shares increased, after Jim started promoting DROOY in his newsletter. I was one of them who shorted DROOY. The rest we already know...

Regardless, the deal was made to push DROOY on the "Gold Newsletter." At that time, DROOY was selling about $7/9 @ share. Since then, the stock dropped down like a brick to about $2. a share, and Jim published a couple of desperate letters just only dedicated to DROOY's rescue (the stock reached a low of $0.56 a share later on). The rest we all know... I shorted DROOY at $7.27, and covered it at
$2.12 during those days. This is only my opinion, however, I wish I could print more details without getting into legal problems.

I have no direct or indirect interest in anyone buying, selling, storing, framing, or using shares of DROOY as toilet paper. However, I have been unfarily called all kinds of different names by Board's posters. So be it. I tried to send a warning message to this Board to prevent further losses on those neophytes who "believe" they know
what they are doing. The field of investing is very treacherous, mostly when companies do not have ethical Board of Directors.

If you receive a copy of the Gold Newsletter, read the fine print on the last page...which in essence says, ...they may hold positions of the stock, they may be on the Board of Directors, or hold stock-options below current market price, before distributing the newsletter...

In my opinion, Kebble embarked on an "advertising" journey with the late Jim at that said previous period, but it was promoted as an "investment" advice. That was a misconstrue material fact, in my opinion. Many new investors got sucked into buying DROOY's shares at high prices. Caveat Emptor with DROOY!
I must admit I have used vulgar language on this Board. I must also admit I have a temper. For those whom I have offended, I apologize. My intent was not to offend anyone, but to infuse satire, so laughter will ease the pain of losing money. I do not believe the majority of this Board have made money on DROOY. I did. I think I know certain
privilege information about DROOY. It has nothing to do with the gold reserves DROOY has in the ground, which are well known by anyone. Nor does it make me more intelligent than anyone on this Board, but more informed. That's all. My intent with this Board has always been honest. I thought I had a message to communicate to the posters on this Board. Unfortunately my message was lost in vulgar language and satire. Well,... Not only the USA government is corrupt...

Lastly, I must also admit English is not my mother tongue, therefore, some of my posts were not written precisely grammatically correct. As an ex-German, I speak and write fluent German, but not English. We, Germans, seldom apologize. However, today I am going to make an exception, due to the fact I believe I have been wrong in degrading
myself to low caliber language used in some of my posts. Once again, I do apologize to all of you, and mostly to those whom I have offended, for the said inconvenience.


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Solomon WeaverPhoenix.....interesting the very specific details of your dream#5522206/02/01; 21:18:11


I will be quite glad if your vision is really that strong....I just wanted to point out that one of the most important aspects of owning gold and silver in the last years is having some I was really just joking when I asked about 2001. I already knew from your description that you saw only a few months to accumulate.

I am thinking now about Plato and the Analogy of the Cave. My memory of that is that the one who leaves the cave confronts a new reality which has additional dimensions and finds that the old vocabulary of the cave is not enough to describe what he now understands to be the "true reality" and thus cannot communicate it to his fellow cave dwellers. I really admire this forum because collectively, it allows us to dig below the first layer of illusion (CNN Market Report and FED worship, etc.)

At least in the Cave, we must assume that the shadow on the wall was an accurate "image" of the true self as the light source was constant and the lines were strong...the dwellers were only ignorant that they and their shadows were not one and the same.

We have the same problem today that the shadow we see (paper markets for gold and other assets) on the global financial wall are taken as the full reality...and now, due to manipulation of these markets, even the shadow is no longer related to what it used to be..the distorted markets are no longer even based on the physical source of the shadow.

It is such an illusion, that even the wisest here continually fall back into the trap.

Poor old Solomon

MoutainGoldMessage to All Posters.....#5522306/02/01; 21:43:01

If anyone does not like my posts, just move on down the road. These Forums are invaluable to me since they give me great insights into current Gold and Silver thinking.

Frankly, many posters on many of these Gold and Silver Forums are great contrary indicators. I have made money from their opinions which are usually wrong...will not divulge any names. They have every right tio their opinion even if it is unreasonable.

As a payback for the great insightful posts on this Forum, I do not mindgiving my trading opinion. Take it or leave it.

Opinions are great, but they do not pay my bills.

Keep the great information coming.
Again, just passme over if you do not like me or my comments.

Sorry, I pass over many posts that do not interest me.

axGalearis - Feedback on US GOLD RESERVES#5522406/02/01; 21:48:12

Hi Galearis ! How is up in the far North? Here in the
South ( So. Calif. that is ) it was raining a bit today.

Regarding your:
Galearis (06/02/01; 21:09:40MT - msg#: 55220)
Re the Ansimov article
Interesting article, but..... and

Galearis (06/02/01; 20:59:32MT - msg#: 55219)
@ Ax
Hi from the far north (smile)
Buying gold to "harden" the US dollar backing would require a LOT of

Actually a boost of "calculated" value of 3 cents to 6 cents
of the USD based on gold reserves would be a tremendous
boost. As you say the gold standard is too limiting. That
is why we have a hybrid system which just requires a very
small amount of gold backing to serve as a stabilizer or "fly wheel". The major value of a currency, the USD in this
case, is the industrial machine behind it, and more broadly,
the gross domestic product. Without this, a sound economy,
NO amount of gold would be enough. With it, just a small
amount is required to provide the stabilization.

Further, this relatively small amount of gold reserve allows
for a safe expansion of the money supply and lower interest
rates to prime the economy in times such as these, when
there is a slowing or partial recession, without the danger
of creating a devalued currency in the process - even
temporarily. During this time of monetary expansion when
the GDP needs stimulation and cannot in itself give value
to the currency, the value of the currency must be supported
by its gold reserve.

To accomplish this during these times, when many countries
are reducing their reserves, some going toward zero as is
Canada, for example, it is important for the leading world
currency, the USD, to be adequately supported. Remember,
this is a HYBRID SYSTEM, not a monetary system based on the
gold standard as such, so JUST A SMALL AMOUNT - SUCH AS A

Best Regards,


Phoenix RisingUS_Army(RET)#5522506/02/01; 21:58:24

I agree with you...something is stirring in the "great consciousness"! Some of us find ourselves intently analyzing financial charts and markets, others are watching/listening to the news more, some are in the process of "cleaning house" meaning they're simplifying their lives, while still others are for the first time finding themselves inexplicably drawn to gold and silver coins. Many of us are receiving messages...even though we may be fully cognizant of it.

Keep an eye on China....the Dragon is awakening. The Dragon has been busy behind the scenes and will be playing a significant role in the unfolding events.

Remember who you are. Know thyself...find your truth, claim it, then live it. Walk in the knowledge that you are deeply loved. Be at Peace.

US_Army(RET)Rising Phoenix#5522606/02/01; 22:03:53

Wa Salaam.


Solomon WeaverMountain Gold.....I thank sir Netking for pointing out a folly of mine in your direction#5522706/02/01; 22:12:05

I see you may even be out there in real time and hope that you will forgive me for misreading handles and railing in on you again.....

Poor old Solomon

NetkingGold market forecasts war on immediate horizon. . . .#5522806/02/01; 22:50:49

As Sir Rockgrabber's discerning posts earlier today pointed out war may be ahead, this in itself would bring massive change to the PM markets as we have known them.
Gold market forecasts war on immediate horizon;
(The latest by Clif Droke suggests some changes ahead;)

"Gold traders and investors who have wondered aloud in recent months how the yellow metal can possibly mount a sustained rally--an-look so good from a chart perspective-in the face of a rising U.S. and global stock market outlook now may have their answer. The gold market is forecasting war between China and Taiwan-and possibly even North Korea and South Korea-with the United States sandwiched right in the middle. If gold's long and reliable history as a war gauge is any indication, the events in question should occur sometime in 2002.

A number of experts in recent weeks have weighed in on this developing crisis. Lawrence Patterson, editor of Criminal Politics magazine, reports that the United States is facing war in the Pacific within 12-24 months. Writes Patterson, "The China attack will be a massive ballistic missile assault obliterating the Taiwanese military structure with plenty of missile power left over to terrorize the civilian population. The missile attack will be over in three or four hours and the occupation will begin before sunrise on the east coast. By the time Americans reach their work that fateful day, China will have established a complete naval blockade of the island, threatening the United States that its Naval forces face nuclear destruction should it attempt to defend Taiwan. They will not be issuing an idle threat."

Patterson has not been the only observer in recent months to forecast a soon-to-come war with China. According to former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Thomas Moorer, the U.S. can expect a war with China within 1-2 years. He points out that former president Clinton essentially gave them technology to modernize and advance their military power and that we have given much ground during the Clinton years. . . "

tinearnew poster#5522906/02/01; 23:37:50

I'm just wondering - when the Fed injects "new money" into the banking system, does it just go pro-rata to the banks? or might it go to a particular bank. Inquiring minds like Reg might want to know. We probably all should.
Peter AsherAX & the fly-wheel#552306/3/01; 00:27:50

Re your <<< we have a hybrid system which just requires a very small amount of gold backing to serve as a stabilizer or "fly wheel". The major value of a currency, the USD in this case, is the industrial machine behind it, and more broadly, the gross domestic product. Without this, a sound economy, NO amount of gold would be enough. With it, just a small amount is required to provide the stabilization.>>>

Just add the American worker to your list of ingredients and this excerpt from your post is a spot-on description of what really backs not just the dollar but applies to any other currency and its economy. The ‘fly wheel’ aspect of gold reserves aligns with what someone said here awhile back regarding individual's gold holdings as analogous to the spare tire in your car. You hope you never need it but never travel without it, because when you do need it you cannot function without it.

Therefore the amount of gold reserves needed would be related to the probability of the economy having a blowout or re the fly wheel, the more instability threatening to overturn an economy the greater the monetary inertial moment the fly wheel must have.

What I'm working up to here is a demonstration of why the Euro keeps losing value vis-à-vis the dollar even though the Euro has a much higher gold reserve ratio. The EU economy is simply more unstable!

Belgian@ Auspec#552316/3/01; 03:08:42

A very difficult excercise in balancing on the rope.
All of us are trying to explain the "irrational" behaviour of Gold's price and value. Passionate Goldfever for a wide range of reasons. We are in for race to find the Golden clues. The reason why I stick to this CPM forum and don't read any other Goldforum is the following : here we find the most balanced mix on Gold. I'm avoiding to get carried away in a one way street of toughts. It is counterproductive for creative intuition. Chapman is inspiring on one particular element in the gold anomaly.
JMB has a point with a portion of sensationalism signal.
But let us ask him why De Beers will be leaving the stock markets after decades of public appearances. Has nothing to do with gold but is an example of "modus operandi" for not so glassnost purposes.

Ad nauseum, I repeat the oligopoly aspect of Gold and its consequences for elitist (?) manipulation of it. We will never, never know what happens inside the Gold walls !
And therefore shouldn't exclude any kind of trics. None of us is allowed to spend a single night in the Gold bed.
And taking collectivity gold (part of it)to stronger private hands is a very plausable trail. (cfr.De Beers)
Adding some sensation sauce to it, one way or another, is not affecting my intuition anymore. Maybe we are even over-estimating the role of gold in relation to what you call NWO ? I do favor the privitisation of Gold. I would welcome an emty fort Knox. I would also advertise the sale of my humble nest in Gold value. I find it also abberating that silver is priced at a 5.000 yrs infla.adjusted low. And I hope that Mrs Ironhead is wrong and that all the restitution will happen during our lifetime. I do realise that by producing exquise chocolat, cacao-slavery-childlabour is taking place. Amen !

Simple logic about POG's behaviour leads unavoidably to some kind of "unfresh" manipulation aspect by dark forces, using facades. Very difficult to find out if they are actually dominating the game or are just an opportunistic fraction in the whole drama ? What are we using : gutfeeling or cool intelligence ? Or are we lost in too many unnecessary inter-relations ? Sometimes, realities are much more down to earth as they pretend to be. Some philosophical approach is perhaps a more practical attitude.
Having many simple and fundamental questions un-answered, results automatically in a degree of suspicion, often justified ! And as long as the collectivity doesn't want to give these answers we have the right to explore all possibilities.
To be continued.

NetkingComex - Damage control plans . . . .#552326/3/01; 03:48:23

. . . As the Au/Ag price starts to arise out of the ashes like it's powered by nitro we would expect there to be plans put in place swiftly(very) by Comex as part of their crisis management and damage control.

These same plans have been put in place in other time frames to control certain PM's & for damage restriction. We will see in the days ahead;

- Buy orders stopped by Comex for certain PM's. Remaining will be a policy to only accept sell orders for these same contracts.

- Existing long futures contracts & futures call options holders will have margin calls to increase(hike up)the cash backing behind each of their positions. Many will forced out of their positions & will have to liquidate where cash backing cannot be increased by the large margins demanded by the new regulations.

- Existing long futures contracts & futures call options holders who meet condition #2 will then be forced to settle for cash anyway.

Physical Au/Ag is & will always be THE best option for a serious PM investor, especially so given the future that is ahead. IMO - NetKing

BelgianResponses#552336/3/01; 04:25:59

Escape the matrix (#55193):Euro/dollar. IMO to quick conclusions on the Alcatel/Lucent deal. Dollar-rise (119) :
if you (Europ-Japan-China = ?) have the intention to unload your dollar-reserves...arrange the rise of its value ! And the inverse for gold. But a rising dollar with a rising USTBy30 IR cannot live together for a long time. One of these two has to break.

Christian (#55194) creation gold priced more than 10 times the commodity price. I still don't understand it, but I'll keep on trying. US GDP = 10 trillion (not 5 T.)
Do you have a similar example where the public price of an item is 10 times less than the insiders price ?
And if Gold is valued at 2.700$ for credit purposes...what are the world's pirates (Chapman actors) waiting for ?

Old Yeller(#55195): if Japan repatriates its US$ for Yen...what are they going to do with it : prop up their Nikkei and Yen ? If they are succesfull with this, what will be the impact on their world-trade-exports ? IMO, kind of catch 22 situation. They will only be forced to repatriate as soon as the US$ starts to dive.

O.G. : liked your "Gold as a store of labor". Very objective criterium.

B.B. : 15 barrils an ounce = 350$/375$ POG. Again that Ultra-Decisive price target where the make or brake for Gold is situated for fundamental and TA point of vieuw as well. In Europ we don't have refinary constraints (bottlenecks). This aspect is not affecting POO for us.
As far as TA on POO is concerned : no projections possible with reasonable probability. But the 350$/ounce equivalent suggests that there is a strong logic in the price-setting and that fundamentals point to a much higher price ? FWIW !
A sudden increase in POG might trigger a organised (deal) decline in POO ? Geopolitics (Rothshield sponsored)

The Invisible HandStaying Ahead of the Curve – Why didn't Cicero think it earlier?#552346/3/01; 04:50:31

‘Staying Ahead of the Curve’ is the subtitle of the book ‘Soros on Soros’ (1995, John Wiley & Sons). The book is in the form of an interview.

Asked what was his response to being attacked for having made a tremendous profit on pulling sterling out of the ERM, Soros replied on pp.83-84:

" I fight for many causes in my life, but I don't particularly feel like defending currency speculation. I consider it a necessary evil. I think it is better than currency restrictions, _ but a unified currency would be even better_ My defense is that I operate within the rules_. If there is a breakdown in the rules, that is not my fault as a lawful participant but the fault of those who set the rules. I think that is a very sound and justified position, and I have absolutely no moral qualms about being branded a speculator. But, as I say, I don't feel like waging a campaign trying to defend speculation either. I have better battles to fight. I think that it behooves the authorities to design a system that does not reward speculators. When speculators profit, the authorities have failed in some way or another. But they don't like to admit failure; they would rather call for speculators to be hung from lampposts than to engage in a little bit of soul-searching to see what they did wrong. – end of quote

If Soros now started speculating against the gold shorts, he would still be operating within the rules trying to establish a unified currency, gold, whereas the authorities aren't. operating within the rules

As Adam Smith explained in the doctrine of my namesake; "every individual endeavours to employ his capital so that its produce may be of the greatest value. He generally neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how he is promoting it. And he intends only his own security, his own gain. He is led in this as if by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention. By pursuing his own interest he frequently promotes that of society more effectually than when he really intends to promote it." (paraphrased by Walter Block, in ‘Defending the Undefendable’, New York, Fleet Press Corporation, 1976, , pp 171-172)

When senator Catilina was plotting against the Roman state, Cicero started his speech in the senate by asking "Quousque tandem abutere, Catilina, patientia nostra?" ("How long, Catilina, will you continue to abuse our patience?") Or is the volcano about to erupt and the last train about to leave?

BelgianResponses#552356/3/01; 05:04:01

Rockgrabber/Netking : Do "they" need war to obtain their goals ? Haven't wars mutated into contained regional "conflict" ? Chineze people want to participate in the pleasures of consumption as soon as possible. Do they need a war for this ? Conflicts are a more opportunistic way to satisfy man's thurst for violence and power struggle.

Uponroof (DROOY): Without any judgement at all ! Drooy shares are for more than 75% in US hands ! Why ? Why does South Africa exports a "jewel (?)" ? A delicate matter isn't it ?

Mountain Gold : I do appreciate your comments. Cross fertilization is productive. There is always (!) something in every post on this forum. We are all guests to CPM and behave with low ego profilation, wich makes it a causy place to exchange opinions. Please do continue your comments, as you wish, with typical pragmatic style.

BelgianSoros und kein ende (and no end)#552366/3/01; 05:33:55

Gold Fundamentals...Gold Manipulation...and finally Gold Speculation, at last ! It still strikes me that these gentlemen Buffet / Gates / are promoted in the media as Silver adherents (Netking, you like it hé). Silver, yes but not Gold ! Value promotor and guru, Buffet is not AND SHALL NEVER be associated with Gold ! This is a complete anomaly . Again for the same old reasons of oligopolistic and speculative associations. Are insiders tracked on their speculative positions of their own listed companies ? When
there is default than the speculative (fraud) aspect comes to the public. We are experiencing an daily full dissection of a Belgian Nasdaq listed C° (LHSP) wich defaulted because of blatant fraud. Very educating and inspiring in our search for explanation of the abnormal POG behaviour.
Maybe Soros/Mr. X/ are wrongly chosen names. But Speculation is definitely a major part in the Gold drama.
An opportunity for gold buyers and a painfull experience for gold victims.

Black BladeCalifornia Electricity Economics 101#552376/3/01; 06:40:58


The roots of the current California electricity crisis not surprisingly emerge from a situation where politicians attempted the old unwinnable Soviet-style game of manipulating free markets.

Like "The People's Republic of China", Californian "deregulation" is a bald-faced lie and another example of bureaucratese Orwellian doublespeak. In the mid 1990s, California "deregulated" its electrical market, except it was really a RE-regulation, NOT a deregulation.

On May 17 California Governor Gray Davis told the power companies that California does NOT want their help and does NOT want extra power capacity. His exact words were, "We are literally at war with the energy companies." What a fool! The citizens of California NEED the power companies to come in, spend their capital, and upgrade and enhance the electrical generating capacity of the state. As soon as the politicians realize that power companies are the solution to the crisis, and not the problem, they will invite capitalists from around the world to the fine state of California to build power plants. The politicians will probably have to sign statements in blood swearing the state of California will not muck around with prices and will let the electric utilities operated in a totally free market. When that day arrives, the electrical crisis is well on its way to being solved.

Black Blade: The author, Hamilton aka Zelotes , lays into the Marxist Grasshoppers. BINGO! Hmmm… Now where did we hear that before? Well written.

Christian(No Subject)#552386/3/01; 06:42:14

There is three ways a nation can increase its wealth. 1-It could make war and take the wealth of another by force. 2-It could trade freely and make a profit by cheating. 3-A nation could profit through agriculture, where by planting the seed to create new wealth as if by miracle. On balance, trade is stuff for stuff, and in the aggregate there can be no profit from trade. We the USA speak of free trade but try to make a profit by cheating. To make a monetary profit requires a policy of overpricing one product as compared to another. Our system like the system requires a very small amount of gold backing to serve as a stabilizer. The USA like England, Switzerland and many others have sold their excess gold that is not needed for credit creation. All of these countries have repriced the credit creation gold to a much higher price. The whole idea is to make a monetary profit which requires a policy of overpricing one product as compared to another. In this case it is credit creation gold which is overpriced compared to commodity paper gold. Our euphemism for free international trade is to create the credits with which the foreigners can buy our goods.It is not in our interest to have the foreigners create their own credit. That is why we are removing their gold holdings. If we create the credit we are in position to force foreigners to produce something that can be sold to someone else. Lets use South Africa as an example. It exports gold we need for credit creation, coffee and tea we drink. In order for them to mine the gold they have to borrow from our central bank or to grow the coffee and tea they have to borrow from our central bank. We do not want them to create that credit for themselves. Using the rule of 72, the rate of interest is divided into 72. This yields the number of years it takes for a debt to double. At 10% interest, it takes about 21 years for a debt to triple. Our FED uses two GDP numbers. Our Gross Domestic Production is said to be $10 trillion but our useful inhouse GDP is only $5 trillion and the rest comes from us cheating them out of their right to create their own credit. Our highly touted international trade is constructed on our central bank repricing gold among themselves for credit creation at a much higher price then what commodity paper gold trades at. The CENTRAL BANKS benefits greatly and they want to keep that benefit. But the American population will soon join the ranks of the Third World Status. It is not enough to cheat all of them when there is another 260 million people right here at home. By the way should a Third World Country default the U.S.Taxpayer gets to pay off the defaulted loan WITH INTEREST. In the end the U.S.Taxpayer will have to pay off when we default ourselves. It is an irony of the unreality of it all when farmers can not have parity prices because they produce too much-and then on the other hand, this country can not adopt a real gasohol program because farmers produce too little. I Christian as a farmer have been screwed over royaly by my banker because I am forced to sell my production forward at the lowest possible price to guarantee the fricken loan. Each year the value of my land goes up which enables me to get a bigger loan in order to refinance my previous loans I could not pay back. Guess who makes the profit on my operation when my biggest expense is INTEREST.
dragonflyPricing in Gold#552396/3/01; 06:42:44

Seems that wages would have to be paid in gold before folks could price things in gold. We all need a reference point. Hours of labor, dollars, oil/gold ratio - something to make sense of our transactions. At this stage of the game, I doubt that even the most idealistic poster on this forum wouldn't do a dollar conversion before parting with gold for real estate or vice versa. Even after the volcano blows and we are all digging out from under the hot ash, we will use some sort of market opinion to value the real estate and would not waste more gold than necessary to do the deal.

I recall a couple of years ago going a few rounds with Aristotle on this idea of thinking in terms of what things were worth in terms of gold and whether there was enough available vis-a-vis the ability of the poor to acquire any at all. No, we didn't resolve it, :-)

Now let's see - 4,000 ounces for a 5,000 square foot house works out to roughly one ounce for every 1.25 sq.ft. That's some pricey structure in my neck of the woods. After the blowout and considering the energy requirements for such a large house I might part with a few ounces for it, certainly no more than 10. Is your mind doing 'dollar conversions'?? Shame, shame.

On the issue of coin dealers being the only ones making a profit on gold. Amusing. Around here finding one that can make his rent and risk having a few bullion coins on hand is getting more difficult. If a guy makes 10% on a one-ounce coin is that a big deal to anybody? What's standard mark-up in any other retail business? I had a small water-distiller business and I needed 100% to make it worth my time.

Analogy time. This hyper-economy we're experiencing - this false high generated by the 'speedball' of easy credit - is ruining our adrenal glands which we will need at some later date for a more serious purpose of fight or flight. The physiological crash resulting from overindulgence in stimulants is instructive in that it can take years to rebuild and recover. Once back to square one the only thing worth remembering is that life was preserved. Regret is useless at that point as whatever life advancement that was forsaken is but an imagining, whatever was lost forever gone.

The thing I appreciate the most about the thoughts so diligently presented on this great forum are that they are like fingers pointing to forseeable consequences of present actions. Although it might be difficult to discern that the dull roar ahead is a waterfall and that a move to the bank of this raging river is possible - it is made all the easier by the perceptive and esteemed ideas we are privileged to encounter in this hall of wisdom.

Appreciate y'all

turkey hunterWarren Buffet and gold#552406/3/01; 07:39:17

Two years ago when Buffet had his yearly meeting in Omaha Ne. someone asked him about gold as an investment. To paraphrase what he said according to the Omaha World Herald he said "I wouldn't sell one share of my stocks for the yellow stuff, it comes out of the darkness in S Africa and ends up in the darkness at Ft Knox."

After reading the article he left me with the impression that he thought the guberment would confiscate it any way. But who knows for sure what he does?

The Invisible HandSoros, LHSP and illusions!#552416/3/01; 08:09:21


You seem to be arguing
In: Belgian (6/3/01; 05:33:55MT - msg#: 55236)
Soros und kein ende (and no end)

- that LHSP provides a very educating and inspiring example in our search for explanation of the abnormal POG behaviour.
- and that maybe Soros/Mr. X/ are wrongly chosen names

I am at present living in South-East Asia, but from what I am reading in the electronic edition of the Financieel Economische Tijd newspaper, the protagonists have been recently remanded in custody for one month, after having spent already one month in jail, not because their detention would be necessary for the criminal investigation, but because otherwise investors’ confidence in the ever rising stock market would be thwarted. It may be because I used to be a lawyer in a previous life, but those guys are thus being kept in prison in order to keep the illusion of the ever rising stock market alive. If Summers, Greenspan and McDonough(sp) would be sent to jail, this would be because they wanted to camouflage inflation and thus keep the illusion of no inflation alive. Is that not a little difference?

As to my reference to Soros, this comes from Reginald H. Howe's May 28, 2001 article ‘The gold train will be the last train out’. This is a rumour, yes. But why did Adam Hamilton publish on May 25 his article ‘Gold prepares to erupt’? And what about the contents of the Greenspan letter, postdated May 30, to Murphy?

met beste groeten,
The Invisible Hand

dragonflyFreegold#552426/3/01; 08:26:06

1. As long as governments exist - free markets don't.

2. As long as powerful cartels exist - free markets don't.

3. Governments and powerful cartels will always exist.

4. Therefore free markets will not.

If we must then live with merely semi-free markets, except for the occasional barter (the best of all possible exchanges), then how can we visualize this Freegold concept existing in parallel with a fiat world? Is it really Free in such a world? Or is it only relatively Free, compared to its recent history as handmaiden to to the queen of currencies? Is relatively Free good enough to serve the purpose?

It seems that the debate regarding courts of law not enforcing attachment of collateral when gold loans default has yet to address the aspect (pardon me if I missed it) that one is still free to make a gold loan and the other is still free to repay it. The new approach would just create the condition where the 'collective' (society, the courts etc.) would not force an individual to give up collateral upon default. I think the irony here is that those who argue on behalf of Freedom versus Freegold still have a bit of an iron fist inside that velvet glove - that being contract law and the enFORCEment thereof.

Now just to be ornery (and probably insufficiently schooled as well <grin>) suppose we define the freedom to contract in terms that do not rely on the 'collective' enforcing anything on individuals entering into contracts. Anarchy you say? A collapse of civilization (as if that hasn't happened already)? Maybe Faulkner had it right about roads being the beginning of the end. Maybe if we seek profit in ways that require enFORCEment we are already lost. Why not restrain our contracting to those we trust? Maybe contract enFORCEment is the road that leads to global profit seeking and the debasement of culture and civiliaztion. Private holdings in private hands - privately transferred. Simple.

Synapses cuttin loose now. If many among us are justly concerned about gold confiscation, NWO machination, our neighbors being dumb slobs who's envy in hard times is fuel for fascist decrees, and all that kind of thing -- how can we overcome the Trust Thing and believe that e-gold or some variant of gold banking will make things right. Maybe if people were different. Maybe if we really were basically good in our hearts and clear in our brains. Maybe if emotionally we were 99.9999 fine.

Maybe that's why we are attracted to gold in the first place - because we aren't so good and clear and fine and we know others aren't either. Maybe it's about preserving an ideal through dark times in physical form. Maybe Freegold is an idea whose time has come. Maybe the world as a whole now needs to have gold perform a new function beyond what it has accomplished for us in the past. Maybe it's time to think in a different way.

Thanks for reading,

Orville Goldenbacherhours of labor to the ounce of gold.....#552436/3/01; 09:04:58

Peter Asher/Rockgrabber

Thanks for the gentle correction. I didn't arrive until The Beatles and LBJ, missed the 50's altogether.

The idea of gold, as stored labor, has been going through my head lately.

First, you must determine an "average" hourly wage for a certain year, divide by POG of that same year. You get the
number of hours worked to buy one ounce of fine gold, for that year.

Say, in 1950 the average hourly wage was a buck and a quarter (revised, thanks;) POG was $34.72. You had to work 27 3/4 hours to afford the purchase of 1 oz. gold. Not far from todays 27 hours @ $270 POG and $10 per hour.

Now, I'm not sure you could even buy gold in 1950, even if you had wanted to, or what the actual price would be if you could find it.

I will need to find a reliable source on "average" hourly wages, through the years. I use kitco's 1833-1999 chart.

I would like to see this in chart form, maybe it already exists (no need to reinvent the wheel) speaking of charts....

Hi, we both know where gold is going, we don't NEED no stinking charts (on gold).....i agree. Like the old song, "you don't need a weather man to tell which way the wind blows". It just helps to pass the time as we wait for SSpot to jump through the roof! Spot should we waking soon.

RockgrabberGold as stored labor#552446/3/01; 09:23:22

Conctretized Energy, we call it money, nature made it to be Gold. I read that somewhere and have never thought the same again. So nice to beable to concretize your energy in something that can't be snaked from you. Try concretizing your energy with fiat cash. You might beable to keep up with the rate of inflation for a while, but in times like those that are coming, good luck. Interest is very misleading, or can be, so can even gains. Inflation!! Its how they snake your energy from you to them. As well is the interest they charge while the the fiat tool they are using is still worth something gold (never has the fiat tool been worth more value then now.) OK so now it is very strong, so far its been interest that has been the most burdensome thus far. Now everyone is holding those fiat paper tools, inflate it on them to make their holdings worthless. They are not going to be able to charge the interest they would like to coming here, so use the next tool for snaking their energy, inflation. AAAHHHHH I just cant believe this gold price!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am going to shut it off I will get carried away.
Orville GoldenbacheraNOTHER tHOUGHT....#552456/3/01; 09:26:03


If we were to look at charts, we might believe we will be old and gray before Spot finally jumps , hehe....But then again, who cares? we have much fun <;-)-~ We wait and watch together, yes! $30,000 POG, here we come! please pass the geritol, i needs me medicine......
Old YellerBelgian;more on Japan#552466/3/01; 10:30:40

Thanks for your thoughts.The Japanese riddle has been perplexing to everybody;what a labyrinth!It's patently obvious though,the policies they have tried in the past are an exercise in futility.In addition,they have to protect the interests of their people who are such proficent savers,how on earth could you destroy their savings through BOJ meddling and denial?

More from Kenichi Ohmae,excerpted from "The Burning Fuse":

"The Japanese are prepared for the worst possible case.Americans are not.The Japanese consumer is relatively resilient.Liquid household savings are high and borrowings are not.Only 8% of Japanese households invest in the stock market.So,a market correction of the Nikkei has had minimal effect on the average Japanese consumer."

"Forty-five percent of stocks traded on the Nikkei are held by Japanese financial institutions and closely held corporate groups.Their balance sheets will continue to hurt as the Nikkei corrects to it's real value-from a ten year high of 38,000 to'say,9000"

"The next two or three months will see all of this happen"

Sure,that is just one man's opinion.However,look at the man and his influence.Note the word 'will' not 'may'.Now,on to the heavy stuff.More from Mr.Ohmae:

"It is against this background that Japan must digest it's remaining $1 trillion in bad credit.Since the entire Japanese GDP is only $5 trillion and tax revenues are only $0.5 trillion,there is simply no way it can do that without Japanese financial institutions pulling out of the US.Inevitably there will have to be a huge capital exodus,a homecoming of Japanese money that has been tied up for ten-plus years,financing the US budget deficit."

It's been a long time,over a decade.I get the impression everybody is tired of the game and furthermore,the ways and means of continuing are fraying fast.The Japanese people deserve better for their hard work and frugality.Why hold a wasting,irredeemable asset,given the risk inherent.Better to bite the bullet now and rebuild from a stronger position.

Thanks to LiONS bREATH at Kitco for the link.

Galearis@Ax, your yesterday's #55224#552476/3/01; 11:01:38

I agree and was having a little late night (for me) fun

The $.06 USD (or the $.03 for that matter) was simply a number used to show the extent of the problem for a direct backing of the USD. When Nixon defaulted the events leading up to it (London Gold pool, 100 tonne sales by the BOE, panicked shipments of gold to Europe) were another measure of the problem. Since the default the economy has grown some 66% and the USD supply by 20 fold. This is another measure of the above figures.

So the ECU now has stated plans for a watered-down "Bretton Woods" sort of hybrid backing of 15% gold support (not backing). But a compromise like this still infers (not guarantees) a little more responsible behavior by the ECB than the dollar tyranny/instability that we suffer through today. And, of course, it also does not infer that the ECB is a "friend" of gold any more than the FED is... Will the EURO last 15% longer as a hybrid fiat currency, or go through the same ponzi printing pattern as the USD?

But that's what forums are muse and ponder the unponderables, to learn and reflect too...

It rained up here last night too. Sorry for the late response. I went to bed after posting. A time zone thingy.



JMBSTUDY TIME#552486/3/01; 11:44:04

These guys are very good, imo.
JourneymanSee your two grains, raise you a dollar! @auspec, EscapeTheMatrix, Warren, Curious, Peter Asher, beesting, dragonfly, Galearis, ALL#552496/3/01; 12:46:34

This "there isn't enough gold" argument won't hunt. It's one of
those silly "surface" arguments that abound, certainly in modern
America at least, that sound logical but don't bear up under
logical scrutiny.

But if these sorts of arguments win, we're all doomed. (Yea, OK.
After the quotes from Kenichi Ohmae, I guy I consider one of my
gurus, we're all doomed anyway.)

There have been a lot of scholarly debunks of the "not enough
gold" myth, ORO in particular did an excellent job awhile back -
- - but they don't seem to "take."

So here goes an attempt at a "quick" fix. Caveat emptor!

We're all familiar with the notion that a suit of clothes (or a
good pistol) etc. sold for an ounce of gold in the "good 'ole"
gold-standard days - - - and still do.

We also know that the dollar isn't worth what it once was. Exact
figures aren't necessary to make the point, but let's say that
the current Federal Reserve Note is worth about six cents on the
dollar compared to gold standard days.

That means $6.00 in days of yore would purchase as much as a $100
bill does today.

Did this cause our ancestors big problems because, compared to
today, their dollars (and the gold they were convertible to) cost
too much, was too rare, too valuable? Is it an improvement that
we now have 100 units when in the past, six would have been
sufficient? Does this inflation in numbers make commerce easier?

If so, we could always "ruble-ize," "sucre-ize," "lira-ize," etc.
Even buying a pack of cigarettes and a bottle of vodka requires a
calculator, and I'm not kidding.

Our ancestors got along fine with $20 gold pieces. Today, they'd
be about $400 gold pieces - - - but they'd buy about the same
amount of stuff today as the twenties did in yesteryear.

Seriously though, that's why we have halfs, quarters, dimes,
nickles and pennies.

Anyway, if that doesn't tickle your fancy, take it from Mises,
gold, by an increase in value, will fill the need WHEN we return
to transactional gold in circulation thru electronic gold
establishments, Japanese cars and land being sold for gold
ounces, etc.

Escapethematrix, if we should forego electronic gold because it
may be perverted at some time in the future, then since we're
going to die at some time in the future, we might as well commit
suicide right now. Right?

And Warren, I may not be reading you correctly in your comment
that we'll regret it if gold goes to $30,000 an ounce. You're
right, we will. I hope you're not blaming gold for that?

Don't blame the barometer. That's the Democratic school of
disaster management. If you just don't look at it, talk about or
name it, maybe it will go away. Remember they were trying to
blame GW Bush for the economic downturn because he called
attention to it.

Hi dragonfly! Glad to see you back. And good thought provoking


P.S. We don't have to have a "gold standard," remember, just competing transactional gold.

auspecBelgian and Others#552506/3/01; 13:29:54

Yes, this is a most diverse place, and ideal for idle time as we tread water together with the rescue ship heard faintly in the background. Or not so faintly, maybe even loudly like a volcano or freight train.
Many of us forget that as physical gold/silver await the inevitable departure that the mining shares are largely shunned at this time, and thus prime opportunities. TSE stocks have done very handsomely during the last 7 months or so, mainly because they were bought so cheap. A very clever Austrian friend of mine {hey guy} loves to take sizeable {50 to 100%} profits out of shares and convert to physical. Seems to me that the "dollar world" has held up nicely for this transition. But I'm a mere observer not a prognosticator. It's all in the 'balance', of course.
Belgian, could you expound on "..why DeBeers will be leaving the stock markets after decades of public appearances"? It is an interesting story, that all do not follow closely, and should serve as a nice example of insider mechanisms. Please try to leave out any 'sensationalism' as we don't want to offend the sensitive {wink-wink}. Is the bottom line "stronger private hands"? Where does the money trail lead?
A very interesting observance this last week: Lady Leigh brought us published news about an empty Ft. Knox and it was greeted with the biggest yawn ever heard through a computer screen. Are we all so jaded that this is simply 'old news'? Is it too 'sensational' for the sophisticates here to comment on? Have we just heard so much crap over the years that we are numb from it? Maybe the QoE's Black Gold-NWO-PE-Chinese/Soros/Oilers-CIA-Credit Creation Gold-insiders links have so boggled our mind that we have discarded the infant with the tub soup. Maybe this stuff is pure fantasy and the globe IS really neat and tidy. Anyway, the silence on Ft. Knox was deafening. Of course when they say Ft. Knox they may mean "the US gold reserves" because they are spread out in places other than Ft. Knox, whether they be lead or gold. I believe, on this particular website, that practically NOTHING the US did would be very surprising and that's my bottom line. Do not forget that the US has access to new hoards of gold any time requested. Also the ultimate design is for a one world controlled currency which is light years away from free {e} Gold. Thank you, Leigh, for the article. Looking forward to more clarification!
Throwing out a theory {only} once again, for hopeful comment. The CBs unload "their" gold because that's another method of dissolving national sovereignty. They don't really want it as it would stand in the way of a one world currency {FIAT}. Its proceeds either end up in private hands or is used to keep the 'systems' afloat as we continue marching {slouching} to Gamorrah. JMB, I especially need your clear insightfulness into this issue.
Christian-- Thanks for staying around with your more frequent posting. The monologue thing is down pretty good, next we'll go for dialogue {smile}. Sincerely, even though it is apparent you are a CBer Wannabe, your ideas are most welcome to MANY of us as the 'gold curtain' is probed. That's it! THE GOLD CURTAIN! Mr. Green$pandex, TEAR DOWN THAT CURTAIN! Now I feel much better. Looking forward to more, Christian.
How long can YOU tread water?

SALMON@ auspec re:Empty Ft. Knox#552516/3/01; 13:47:50

Here is a sample what the Weekly World News is about
tedwSilver miners#552526/3/01; 14:16:51

Does anyone have knowlege of the silver hedging policies of the major silver miners?
JourneymanMissing link @Old Yeller#552536/3/01; 14:20:09

Hi Old Yeller!

The link on yur Old Yeller (6/3/01; 10:30:40MT - msg#: 55246)
Belgian;more on Japan,

specifically <> doesn't seem to work?

Could you check?


auspecSALMON#552546/3/01; 14:26:31

Weekly World News

Oh. Nevermind.
megatrontedw#552556/3/01; 14:33:36

This may not be the answer you wanted to hear, but companies financials are available, where they must disclose the facts. You will learn many scary things about bank involvement, and forward sales, and why this whole mess is destined to end up very badly for many of them and their shareholders. My personal contention is that small companies who have very large deposits and cash balances, and most importantly, NO OPERATING MINE, but proven and probable reserves will come out of this with the largest % gain with the least risk. Minefinders and SilverStandard have over 300,000,000 ounces(P+P) between them and are biding their time.
BelgianResponses#552566/3/01; 14:35:06

Turkey hunter : Buffet/Gold: I don't see the logic of Buffet's (darkness) riddle about gold and his position in physical silver ? His denial on gold and the engagement with silver are contradictive and therefore meaningfull to me. He certainly wanted to say something that was referring to gold being controlled by dark/oligopolistic forces. And decided therefore not to participate in the particular goldgame ? After all, didn't Buffet announced his silver buy at the moment that silver made a run of plus minus 50% ?

Invisible Hand : LHSP/Gold/Manipulation. I agree that the comparaison is confusing. Just wanted to expose how easy it is to abuse masses of people with entertaining, "make believe" shows. But it will lead us to far away from gold.
Gold Train : The valuation of Gold couldn't be done on a smooth and progressive way for the past years.Gold's behaviour is mostly irrational/passionate and always in for embracing extremes. Don't know if this aspect is commodity related or oligopoly related ? Some prefer to vulgarize it with "speculative" definition.(Geraak er eerlijk gezegd nog steeds niet goed aan uit.Komt wel)The Valuation of Gold is erratic and is constructed in a lead and lagger pattern.
Can't explain this wave phenomina. Has it something to do with the hard core of private goldholders who choose the right moment for upgrading their physical holdings ? With the minor POG moves caused by the commodity offer/demand laws. Need to do some more thinking about that.

Dragonfly and Freegold: This remains a difficult chapter for me. We are free to buy and sell the metal without a country. We are free to price and value physical gold as we wish. Both as an individual or a group. There are no price-laws on Gold. IMO, Gold is free in principal for the individual, but, periodically, mastered by parts of the collectivity. Nothing prevents you from asking a higher price than spot and nothing prevents you to find a candidate seller for a lower price than spot. Indian and Middle Easteners have surely, much different prices on their physical gold. And in Europ we even don't have a VAT on it. Can you precise what you understand under the un-freedom of gold ?

Old Yeller and Japan: Saving Japanese individuals and virtual banckrupt institutions is quite an amazing contrast(paradox). I do agree with you that one day this must lead to a dramatic action that will surely have an impact on the US$ ! 99,9% probability that the impact is a negative.
Isn't this enough for us to know ?

Journeyman: " not enough gold". I do understand your arguments against this. But can you or someone else, elaborate on the consequences of a POG valuation of say 30.000 $/ounce ? I aven't come yet to terms with this idea.
And having asked the following question before : on what criteria is Gold bound to be valuated ?

beestingOpinion on missing Ft. Knox Gold Story. #552576/3/01; 14:54:46

The story was published by a source that has credibility of, on a scale of 1 to 10; -3!

The story was released to discredit the real missing Gold story uncovered by GATA. That possible scandle is; that part of the Gold that the U.S. Treasury Department is responsible to safeguard may not be what the public has been led to believe.To be more specific almost 1700 tonnes of Gold at the West Point New York mint is classified as custodial Gold.(See USAGOLD archives) Clever magicians never expose the secrets inside their bags of tricks!.....beesting.

BelgianAuspec#552586/3/01; 15:24:53

De Beers: The de-listing coincided with the strong and broad campaign of "Dirty Diamonts" or war-diamonts (Liberia-Angola). At the same time De Beers wanted to sell "clean" diamonts with De Beers branding (traceble) through LVMH.
This are the facts we were allowed to know. With the privitization, the Oppenheimers wanted to get rid, once and for all, from the permanent attacks on the diamont-cartel.
Probably they judged that the (leftist) pressure could grow substantially and harm the diamont business (cfr.animal furs etc). Diamonts risked to become a political issue in the human rights series. Too dangerous to remain exposed ?
My impulsive reaction was : what if they do the same with mining stocks ? And signal a move to privitize Gold.
In this context, I'm studying H.Ferhani statements as France central banker in Signapore (LBMA-conference).Comments later.(also related to...CBs unload their gold)
Mining shares: funny that their valuation with POG's recent spike discounted already a POG of 350$ wich corresponds with BB's 15 barrils crude/ounce calculation. As if POG already went to that crucial barrier in the minds ?

NetkingLeigh: Amazon and Kaplan's general "outlook"#552596/3/01; 16:17:58

Leigh, From memory,I think you asked a question in recent weeks about Amazon in one of your posts? Steven J Kaplan's comment below from his MODEL PORTFOLIO gives his opinion;
Sold most of my gold mining shares. Mostly in cash, with a very small long position in gold mining shares, and an increased but still moderate short position in garbage equities such as

also he says . . .
SUMMARY: My current outlook has fallen once again to STRONGLY BEARISH for gold mining shares, as well as for gold, gold coins, and gold collectibles. According to the most recent COMEX gold traders’ commitments, commercials were net short 65,250 contracts as of the close of trading on Tuesday, May 22, 2001. According to the charts at , commercials were briefly even more heavily net short in February 1996, to the tune of more than 90 thousand contracts, which was of course gold's short-selling opportunity of the decade. Discretion is the better part of valor, as being on the long side is a purely speculative and foolish game when commercials are arrayed against you. With few speculators remaining on the short side, there is little fuel to sustain a rally; there is no point running on empty. Investors who like to take risks should consider initiating short-selling positions with the intention of adding to them as commercials go increasingly net short, and covering once commercials are once again net long. . ."

ETBelgian#552606/3/01; 16:29:22

Hey Belgian - thanks for your thoughts. You write in part;

"Dragonfly and Freegold: This remains a difficult chapter for me. We are free to buy and sell the metal without a
country. We are free to price and value physical gold as we wish. Both as an individual or a group. There are no
price-laws on Gold. IMO, Gold is free in principal for the individual, but, periodically, mastered by parts of the
collectivity. Nothing prevents you from asking a higher price than spot and nothing prevents you to find a
candidate seller for a lower price than spot. Indian and Middle Easteners have surely, much different prices on
their physical gold. And in Europ we even don't have a VAT on it. Can you precise what you understand under the
un-freedom of gold?"

You are right of course. Gold today, for the most part in the world, is freely traded. Our "FreeGold" (TM) advocates are using the term in an apparent effort to confuse the issue. They have contended for quite some time that gold needs to be regulated on a worldwide basis to prevent the type of situation we have today with a paper gold market supporting a dying currency, the dollar. Apparently not content to let the marketplace take care of the issue, they contend we must come in line with the concept of "FreeGold", which of course sounds good, but in effect will regulate an otherwise free market in gold.

There are several issues I have with this idea, aside from the fact that it interferes in the marketplace. First, they have contended that gold needs to be prevented from being used as an "official" currency because they claim it leads to the problems we see today with debasement. Of course, they overlook the fact that gold is not the official currency anywhere today and I would contend that is the reason for the debasement, not the other way around.

Second, they have contended that gold be treated differently than other assets in terms of contract. This, as ORO has explained several times, would essentially void contract law, the essense of all free markets. The ability to make contracts is how we trade for what we want, thus setting aside gold to be treated differently would essentially void all efforts at finding the true value of all things for trade as well as finding true value for our savings.

Third, and probably the least exciting part of their proposal, as far as I'm concerned, is the notion that we should allow "Socialist European Bureaucrats" (TM), to fairly mark to market their currency versus gold and then rely on this valuation in everyday commerce as opposed to simply allowing gold to trade freely. I find this whole notion to be ludicrous but it certainly points out where these people are coming from. They decry the current paper gold "mark to market" scheme but turn around and contend we just need some other entity to do it.

The entire idea rings of socialism although the terms they've chosen in an effort to sell it to the public sound good to the average reader who is probably not looking too closely at the details. Take my opinion of this matter for whatever you think it's worth, but these advocates certainly haven't answered the few questions I've asked and when pressed tend to disappear. Their scheme would be better titled "RegGold" (TM), as far as I can tell. I'll continue to say no thanks, as I prefer the free market.

LeighNetking, auspec#552616/3/01; 16:34:16

Netking, I never mentioned Amazon. Thanks anyway, though!

Auspec, I agree with beesting that the story was probably a cabal plant. It was fun to read, though, and probably had some truth to it. What is sad is that even if the story had been on the cover of Newsweek, nobody would have cared. No one ever thinks about gold anymore.

beestingRon Paul,,,Free Gold,,,,Implementation Plan "A" Plan "B".#552626/3/01; 16:43:27

From Ron Pauls Money book(talking about Gold coins being put into circulation) begin quote:

Myth # 1: "There Isn't Enough Gold."
(Ron Paul)
I find it amazing that economists can make statements like this, for it is an elementary principal of economics that if one raises the price of a commodity, one will always have enough of that commodity. Simply put, there will always be enough Gold so long as NOONE interferes with the free market mechanism.....End of Ron Paul quote.

Free Gold Plan"A".
Plan "A" has already been implemented by
The only drawback right now that I see is, as Sir Trail Guide correctly pointed out, how do we get the man at the gas station or small farmer selling produce directly to the public, or anyone who wants cash in hand to accept Gold?. Well, Plan "B" could work, but it would take some time.

Free Gold Plan "B".
Lets use our imaginations a little and take an imaginary trip to the Northwest Territories Province of Canada.
Now, lets say there is an oil company in a remote area producing and shipping oil to anyone who will buy with no international restrictions.
Not too far away, is a large Gold producing area in production.
Because both these companies have frequently been affected by currency flucuations in the past when they sold their products internationally they decide on Plan "B".

A private mint is set up close to the nearest town.(eventually other mints should open compitition) The Gold mine sells refined Gold to the mint.( At first for local currency...later for Gold.) The mint starts to mint coins with no denominations. The largest Gold coin contains 31.103 grams of Gold(1 oz.), next Gold coin contains 15.5515 grams(1/2 oz.), next Gold coin contains 7.77575 grams(1/4 oz.), next Gold coin contains 3.103 grams(1/10 oz.),next coin contains 1.5515 grams with an alloy(1/20th oz.), next coin contains .3103 grams(1/100th oz.) with an alloy and so on & so on, if smaller denominations are needed. ( Anyone is free to weigh these coins at any time, and many merchants probably would set up a system to weigh the coins.)

The town merchants, the Gold mining company, the mint, the oil company,and all employees have a choice of payment in Gold or local currencies.Anyone has a choice at anytime to "barter" the coins, or exchange for goods or services.

The remote oil company begins to accept Gold for oil, as his employees and local expenses are now being paid for in Gold, the oil refiners, with some pressure from the remote oil producer, convert local currencies into Gold to pay for the crude oil. Soon the oil refiner begins to accept payment for refined oil products in Gold, so he can re-order more crude. The remote mint starts to ship their coins everywhere in exchange for Gold bullion,at a small profit. The purchasers of gasoline and local products in the surrounding areas begin to use the remote mints line of coins.....""A FREE GOLD SYSTEM"".

This could easily be done without breaking any laws simply by the mint calling their line of coins "jewelry" instead of for thought.....beesting.

auspecLeigh#552636/3/01; 17:03:59

Per your post: "What is sad is that even if the story had been on the cover of Newsweek, nobody would have cared. No one ever thinks about gold anymore."

Yes, Leigh, you are exactly right, no one cares. The GBs will scream a bit, but the deed will be accomplished and pass to dim{wit} memory quickly. Mad Magazine or Wall Street Journal make little difference. I wonder what effect JMB's ridicule of Robert Chapman has, even on this enlightened Forum. He is nowhere near the category of Rense or Skolnick, in fact quite credible imho. I don't really care if he has some stocks to promote that he happens to own, as this is the way the game is often played. Now if he's 'frontrunning' them, that's another story altogether.
beesting is also quite right about the powerful use of RIDICULE in control of a people. Watch for it on TV and out of Hollywood, it is unmistakable.
Very Best to you,

Black BladePrince: Nepal massacre 'an accident'#552646/3/01; 17:30:06


KATHMANDU, Nepal -- On Nepal's first full day of national mourning after the shooting deaths of several members of the royal family, Nepal's caretaker king has changed the official story behind the tragedy. "According to the information received by us [they] were seriously injured in an accidental firing from an automatic weapon," Prince Regent Gyanendra is quoted as saying in a statement broadcast on state radio Sunday.

Black Blade: oops!

donnemuirBelgian...All "Freegold"#552656/3/01; 17:41:51

Kudos, Belgian... physical gold is the only asset one can own that has virtually no restrictions on it's use in trade. Whatever value you wish to assign to the quantity you are offering in trade or are willing to take in return is a fair bargain.
Gold as a basis for trade between individuals is as old as time, but sadly most folks today have not "read the minutes of past meetings". In todays world it is not particluarly easy to do, for the very reason that the intrinsic value of gold is (mis)understood only in terms of its relationship to the "tokens" used in the game of commerce.
Pandagold has said it many times in the past in different ways "the game is rigged, so learn the rules" and decide whether you want to remain in the game or not.
Sometimes it is necesary to inject the "token du jour" into the transaction when certain assets offered into a deal are encumbered with "token based" debt.
I understand the need for currency, fiat or whatever you want to call the rigged medium of exchange; but I prefer "tokens" because one can choose whatever currency the parties can agree upon to round out a deal when necessary.
Incidentally, I use US dollars every day, for all the basic necessities; I maintain a modest supply but do not consider them to be assets.
Over the past forty years physical gold has been a major part of my commercial dealings;(and yes I was able to do it legally when gold was not legal) I have traded for real estate, livestock, oil drilling equipment, etc., but never for a loaf of bread...I think you get the picture. As you can see, I am not an economic theorist, philospher or expert in any esoteric discipline; just a deal maker who prefers to use "Freegold" at every opportunity. I encourage more people to jump on the bandwagon and make gold a part of commerce for the average person and not just for the few that control the worlds supply of physical for their own power enhancement.


Black BladeOPEC Under Pressure to Fill Iraq Oil Outage#552666/3/01; 17:42:34


VIENNA (Reuters) - OPEC oil ministers were under pressure Sunday to react quickly to the suspension by Iraq of U.N.-monitored crude sales and stop another damaging rise in world oil prices. But early signs were that the cartel would resist calls to immediately fill the gap left by Baghdad's decision to stop oil exports under a United Nations humanitarian program.

Black Blade: Article speaks for itself (volumes).

megatronLeigh#552676/3/01; 17:42:48

This may be a silly article, but it also may represent a SERIOUS inflection point bottom in the long wave. If it was a plant, why? Desperation? To implant the fear that discussion of the subject will associate you with the 'nutcases' who read those magazines? Is the story a plant, or could there be a chance that a 'nutcase' paper like this could actually frontrun a real story that bigger 'serious' news outlets would be 'slapped' for? Having worked in the media for many years this story makes no/lots of sense. I'm still pondering. NOTHING happens in a paper for no reason.
ETThomas Sowell#552686/3/01; 17:44:40

From the article;

"You cannot judge how well
someone is solving a problem until
you know specifically what
problem he is trying to solve. You
or I might think that the big problem
is how to get more electricity into
California, for the benefit of its
people and its economy. But that
only shows that we don't think like

"Just getting more electricity would
be easy, if that was all that was
involved. Governor Davis himself
has estimated that he could end the
electricity crisis in 20 minutes, just
by eliminating state-imposed price
controls on public utilities. Why not
do it then? Because he wouldn't be
governor again after next year's
election. And his chance for
national office would be down the
tubes as well.

"No matter how fast Governor Davis ended the
electricity crisis, California voters are not going to
forget the blackouts they have already experienced by
the time of next year's elections. Moreover, the speed
with which the electricity crisis ended would raise the
question of why it wasn't done before -- indeed, why
there was a crisis in the first place, if getting rid of
price controls was all that was needed."

Journeyman$30,000 gold @Belgian, ALL#552696/3/01; 17:46:19

Hi Belgian!

Enjoy all your questions and observations. Wish I had answers to
all of them (:<(

But I'll try for answers on these anyway:

Belgian: " not enough gold". I do understand your arguments
against this. But can you or someone else, elaborate on the
consequences of a POG valuation of say 30.000 $/ounce ? I aven't
come yet to terms with this idea.

The consequences? Well I see it in reverse - - - that is, a
$30,000 price for gold would be only ONE of the consequences of
fiat excesses finally washing out. However WHERE that $30,000
might come from might be worth a look. I certainly cant' take
credit for the following; several posters (ORO, Sir Peter,
beesting, Trail Guide, etc.) have addressed this issue before. So
this is my thinking from my memory of these discussions. There
would be at least three "major" components to a price of $30,000
(or whatever - - - no one and I mean NO ONE can know the actual
figure) per ounce.

1. First and most irrelevant is an increase in the price of gold
so it can be produced at a profit. This would obviously be above
the ~$270/oz. cost of production and probably above the ~$350/oz.
replacement cost (including prospecting & set-up costs for new
shafts, etc.)

2. Scariest and most significant is that the dollar will
drastically depreciate, in which case that $30,000 "price" is NOT
in terms of "today's" dollar. In fact, if only the dollar
crashed and there weren't any other consequences (not bloody
likely), the whole $30,000 would just be equivalent to the buying
power of gold _before_ the crash.

3. The third component of the $30,000 would be increased demand
for gold as a safe haven, since if the dollar crashes, it being
perceived as the strongest fiat of all, the assumption is that it
would scare the bejezzus out of a whole lot of folks.

I beleive this is as far as Trail Guide goes, since it's his
"Free Gold" (TM) [hope you don't mind my using your terminology,
ET] notion that that is the appropriate use for gold, and it
shouldn't trade as money, but only as a wealth preserver. He also
assumes that the paper-gold market will be destroyed or
marginalized in the ensuing economic catyclism.

4. Some of us pie-in-the-sky radicals suggest that gold will
begin to be demanded, particularly for cross-currency trades,
once the dollar underpinnings have been knocked out from under
foreign trade. In fact some of us even think this likely to
happen gradually anyway, since gold, even in it's weakened
condition, has cross-currency advantages over fiat even now - - -
and as this use increases, this will strengthen gold's value as
the volume of transactions increases. This would be the path for
gold to return as a transactional medium. Should this happen,
full-fledged use as "money" would power gold's value much higher,
as any major "new" use will drive the price of anything higher.
We'll see.

Belgian: And having asked the following question before : on what
criteria is Gold bound to be valuated ?

Supply and demand. Plus some component of "gambling"
manipulation, just like everything else. However to the extent
there is honest money, there is little wiggle room for the pure
gambling made possible (and sort of necessary) by all the
financial instruments, (somewhere north of $90 trillion worth of
them), created out of imagination only.

Antal Fekete explains that well in his prize-winning piece
available on the Guilded Opinion page right here at USAGOLD.


Peter AsherET, Beesting#552706/3/01; 17:46:49

ET Free-Gold TM with the hyphen represents nonregulated ie "Free" Gold as is often the case on the internet,the name for somthing gets appropriated by the usurpers and what is really deserving of the term must hyphenate, (:-)

Beesting: The Oil/gold example is perfect. This GE post is interesting also.

@ Goldenrod on Heilein & And how much Troy is that space ship? (Diogenes) Jun 02, 15:40
--- Getting back on subject, a current sci-fi trilogy by Author Michael Flynn creates an immediate future of a mega-corporation that takes the leading role in space flight. They are based on what appears to be the Falkland islands and as an international entity, pay all there salaries in gold. They also accumulate their reserves in the hard stuff and talk budget in terms of "how much troy will that cost us" or "the new ship will cost ten thousand troy." Interesting take on gold returning to its original role as a direct medium of exchange.

Tree in the ForestJMB#552716/3/01; 17:55:03

I've been away for a few days and would like to clear up some previous questions. JMB you said:

"To place a large amount of significance on the Comex COT may not be a wise investment strategy.
As you have pointed out, there are other markets around the world. That was my point, with which you seem to agree, no?"

Your right JMB. Looking at just the COT would not be wise. But as I pointed out, I look at other things as well. As far as the other markets are concerned: they're out there but noone seems to pay them much mind especially when it comes to pricing gold. When was the last time you checked prices in Dubai or Calcutta or Tokyo? But I bet your on Kitco everyday. And this brings us to an important issue. If and when Comex defaults, where will Michael Kosares, Bart Kitman(?), Messrs. Vronsky and Westerman be getting their price quotes? Will they keep mindlessly parroting Comex's bogus paper price discovery or will they be ready (along with other bullion dealers) to start quoting real prices? Unless these dealers have an alternate pricing scheme ready and waiting in the wings, the game continues! You see, it's not just Comex. Comex is a front organization for "them". As has been pointed out, the volume at Comex is relatively small. But "they" use it as their front. As long as gold advocates are not psychologically prepared to declare their independence from this bogus price discovery medium, the game continues! WE have to be ready for this. WE have to have a bullion dealers organization that is ready to quote other exchanges. WE have to stop quoting Comex! Otherwise "we" will always be dependent on "them".

Black BladeThe energy crisis: ground zero #552726/3/01; 17:58:18


STOCKTON, Calif.--It's the time everyone here has been dreading: the hot time, the dark time - summertime in California. This is ground zero in the West Coast energy crunch. Washington's concerns over salmon and increased electric rates - still among the cheapest in the country - seem pale by comparison to people worried about sewage backing up into streets when pumps won't run. And when California temperatures soar and power demand jumps by as much as 40 percent in summer, it's typical for the Northwest to send as much as 1,000 megawatts of power southward every hour. That's nearly enough to light Seattle at any given time. With the Northwest facing the second-driest year in its history, using water to generate power to send south this summer could also hurt salmon, which need enough water to aid their migration to the sea.

Black Blade: I suspect that Washingtonians will look out for number one. I agree that the salmon are more important than locusts (Grasshoppers). So it is best to cut off California from NW power. It's for the environment and endangered species you know. I'm sure the Grasshoppers in California will understand as they voted for exactly what they got. We can write the California economy to boot.

Tree in the ForestChris Powell#552736/3/01; 18:01:38

Hi Chris. It's really great to see all of the work that GATA has done. It would be a pity to see it all go to waste because no alternate means of price discovery was in general use when Comex goes belly up and gold is let loose. See my post #55271 below. Are WE ready?
Black BladeGetting to Core of Power Crunch #552746/3/01; 18:26:51,1294,44213,00.html


LOS ANGELES -- A joint effort between the public and private sectors addresses one of the overlooked issues in California's power crunch -- the transmission of power. The project, called InfoWatt, would replace the core wiring used in power lines from steel to fiber optics – and thus allow more power to be transported from place to place using existing lines. "Over the past 20 years, the power industry has boosted production by 30 percent but they've only increased the distribution capacity by 15 percent," he said. "There used to be plenty of excess capacity on the grid, but that was when power was generated and sold regionally. With deregulation and shipping power over long distances, it's taxed the capacity of the grid to carry the amperage."

Power transfer is a major issue facing California. Northern California has been more prone to blackouts, and while Southern California often has the power to provide the North, it can't get the juice there. The problem is with the grid, called Path 15, which doesn't have the throughput. But building more power lines is an expensive proposition and subject to the usual NIMBY reaction that Californians are renowned for having. The alternative, said Nutt, is higher capacity wires on the existing towers.

Black Blade: No need to build new transmission capacity. It would be unsightly and besides, not in my backyard (NIMBY). I'm sure that Californians would understand when the rolling blackouts hit.

CamelThe Plot Thickens#552756/3/01; 18:30:35


In 1995, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission helped lay the foundation for what has become the debacle of the new millenium when it rejected a state plan calling for new power plants that today would be providing 1,300 megawatts in new electricity.

What's more, records from that year show that the regulatory commission expressed "grave concerns about the need" for new power generation in the state.

Had those power plants been built, they would be generating power for an estimated 1.3 million homes at the wholesale fixed cost of between 3.5 and 6.6 cents per kilowatt-hour with binding, long-term contracts.

Tree in the ForestFarfel, Canuck, Galearis#552766/3/01; 18:35:58

Re: my list of events that would shake gold loose.

Farfel: I never said why these events didn't break gold loose. I just said that others predicted that these would do it and they didn't. Obviously you are correct as to the fact that they became non-events. And yet all of these events had the potential to do so. They were all much heralded, including the accounting changes which you apparently missed but others did not. The US change was June 30, 2000 I believe and the Japanese recently (March 31, 2001?). In any case gold hardly rippled. I believe that it was the fact of their prediction being widely known via the internet and other means that helped the manipulators work their magic. Certainly LTCM was damped by Greenie with a little help from his friends. It certainly is clear that by now, gold should have responded to any number of things and that it is only the manipulation of the price that is stopping it. As for dollar repudiation being a potential cause for gold going up, I ask why? If they have successfully managed all items in my list, why not this one? If 10 times the number of dollars come home, just print 10 times more paper gold on comex to satisfy the situation. I could print as much paper gold as I want right? Just paper over the problems and keep going. As long as Comex remains viable for price discovery, everything is under control...literally.

Canuck: You mentioned introduction of the Euro. Well at some point "they" may be ready to crash Comex and 2002 might be that point. Remember that Comex is their front runner. Comex and LBMA are in this together. "They" control the Anglo markets. As for the possibility of a Comex squeeze instead of a default, Trail Guide indicates that won't happen. So if there won't be a squeeze, how will comex lose control? Default is the only other way. As to when it will happen, I'm betting sooner rather than later.

Galearis: You mentioned exhaustion of the above ground supply. And as you point out, we'll all probably be exhausted by then! As Trail Guide has said, there's plenty of gold! How about when Comex's gold supply is exhausted? I think that ought to do the trick to bring down their price discovery mechanism. As long as bullion dealers are ready with an alternate pricing scheme.

Even though Comex is small potatoes in the gold world, it is "their" baby. And it is there that "they" will wish to lay the blame. Because having a place to lay the blame is very important for politicians so they can convince the sheeple that it's not their fault. The headlines will read that some exchange called Comex defaulted on a contract and it started a gold panic and that caused the dollar to collapse. You didn't expect them to tell the sheeple the truth now did you? The point that I am trying to make is that regardless of other exacerbating events, as long as Comex price discovery continues, gold is under control.

JMBTree in the Forest#552776/3/01; 18:42:10

Sir Peter Asher's #55076 on 5-31-01

You were away when we had the great pleasure of seeing one of our contributors Knighted. Peter Asher is now Sir Peter. Take a look at his HOF post and you may be shocked to learn that some of us could care less about the price of the long run. The sooner the markets break down the better. (BTW, it was the OZ market that capped the GATA spike on "The night that Leigh wigged out." ;) After reading Sir Peter's #55076 you may have a different outlook on the true function of gold.

AUSPEC: I'm still thinking about your question which goes to the motive of the CB gold sales.

Black Blade"We can't treat energy like the good, the bad and the ugly," says NGSA.#552786/3/01; 18:50:10


Horvath continued, "But access to new resources continues to be our call to Congress. In 1990, producers had to replace about 10 percent of their natural gas volumes with new wells each year just to bring consumers the same amount of gas they had the year before. Today, this average ‘decline rate’ has jumped to 23 percent. That means that producers must find 23 percent more gas each year just to satisfy even a stagnant market. And as we know, this market is anything but stagnant. TheEnergy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that natural gas fired generation will increase 4.0 percent from 2000 to 2001, and an additional 6 percent in 2002.

Black Blade: An article from a couple of weeks ago, but the point is that there is a need to increase exploration and development by nearly 23% year over year to fuel electrical power generating facilities. Even more so with new power plants coming on line. I would say that a nearly 50% or better increase will be needed and there are not enough drill rigs in existence - Period! Rolling blackouts during peak power usage is and will continue to be a fact of life. Even with a build up of NG storage, we are still below historical levels. The economy will suffer as a result of limited production and increasing use. With gold at very low prices, it would be a good time to build in some portfolio insurance and to preserve wealth as the economy falls on continued earnings warnings, growing money supply, increasing unemployment, etc.

MoutainGoldSharing Research.....#552796/3/01; 18:54:59

A great commodity Bull Market is very close.

Gold and Silver should be leaders.

My Time Study suggests a 2001 low to a high 2006 Bull run....could last till 2008.

Great wealth building and wealth preservation oppotunity.
Canadian Dollar issued buy signal in my Swing Trading System. This is a commodity currency.

IMHO and no investment advice. Do your own due diligence. This week could be an interestind week for USDollar, Gold and Silver.


Tree in the ForestLafisrap#552806/3/01; 18:58:49

You said:

Tree said: Comex OI for June way down now at 6444 contracts with 3200 stoppers. What does this mean? Very uncertain IMHO. If Comex does not default, the game continues.
Me: 3200 stoppers, that's 3200 contracts calling for delivery, right? That would be 3200 x 100 ounces = 320000, right? COMEX warehouse stock is listed at about 864,000 ounces total, with only about 85,000 eligible ounces. Have I misunderstood anything so far? What are the possible scenarios from here forward? Could it be that the recent mauling of the POG from its recent high to its recent low (approx. $30, or approx %10 in less than 2 weeks) was the result of an effort made by people who want to minimize the number of stoppers?

Your figures are correct sir. The point I was trying to make Lafisrap was that the number of stoppers was not greater than the total of all gold at Comex. It is very much up in the air as to what if anything Comex can do about the situation. You must realize that potentially, all registered gold could be up for grabs if the owners wish to sell. Now you or I might not sell, but how much of that gold belongs to their good buddy Goldman Sachs? These guys are always willing to do a favor for a friend. Now if registered gold is not available in any significant quantity, then Comex has a problem. They will have to go hat in hand to anyone with 100oz bars begging for help. I was hoping for a more decisive situation like 1 M oz being stopped. But it looks as if these guys are going to keep up appearances right until the bitter end. Typical bankers!
As to the drop in POG, it looked like all of those excess contracts suddenly being dumped on the market did it. Remember we were much higher in open interest just before FND. Then it was all dumped in 2 or 3 days.
There could be, I believe, additional OI added this month if someone wants to buy on the spot market. That might happen just before LDD. As I said, they'll play it right to the very end and this will the longest June.

TomMountainGold - I sure do appreciate your timing comments! THANKS#552816/3/01; 19:13:33

Everything I own is in this gold market and THEY been screwin us long enough. I used to have THE pulse of this
gold market after doin this for 30+ years then in '98 I figured out my pulse reading was not working.
When I first got into this market back in the '70's THEY
was messin with it then, THEN they LOST control just as they
are losing control NOW. THE GOLD BULL IS HERE NOW!

Black BladeDeregulation Not to Blame But Davis Is: His Inaction Allowed a Problem to Become a Power, and Fiscal, Crisis #552826/3/01; 19:18:37


The plain and simple reason California will inescapably suffer hundreds of hours of blackouts this summer is because California will not have a sufficient supply of electrical power to meet demand. Five years ago, when deregulation was passed by unanimous vote of both houses of the Legislature (and without a murmur of dissent from any Democratic constitutional officer, including then-Lt. Gov. Gray Davis), California enjoyed an excess of supply over demand amounting to some 30 percent. He could have, by executive order, suspended and truncated the nightmarish process required by state law for approval of siting. Had he done so early enough, when he might even have made a difference this summer, and done so not just with peaker plants but also with large plants, he might have greatly accelerated construction of the power plants that will be required to allow us to escape from blackouts, power price spikes and the severe job loss and economic injury certain to result from a power supply that is neither reliable nor affordable.

Black Blade: It would be difficult to blame the 1995 Clinton-Gore FERC for the energy crisis in California, since FERC has no authority to regulate the construction of power plants, but does have the authority to regulate wholesale power prices.

Black BladeOil: New rules of the trading game #552836/3/01; 19:32:43


Market speculators using sophisticated financial instruments are having an increasing influence on oil prices. Could their activities bring about the world's next financial catastrophe? Rodney Smith investigates.

The secretary general of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec), Rilwanu Lukman, says the world oil market is held captive by the derivatives markets. The old rules of supply and demand have been distorted, he says, by the creation of what he calls "paper barrels" of oil.

Black Blade: This sounds eerily familiar to gold bugs. Now where have we heard this before?

Thanks to bullion at GE forum.

CanuckRookie#552846/3/01; 19:43:24

I wonder if I may ask a couple of rookie questions.

Does Comex operate on a monthly schedule? When is closing day? What is a 'rough' play by play during this time interval?

Thanks much.

I tend to watch the physical side much more than the paper side. The greatest delight I get from watching the physical side is the widening supply/demand picture. As POG retreats to the 'cost of production' less physical can be supplied; economics 101. Cost of production in my books is in the neighbourhood of $230-$285/oz. I think at this price producers are getting net, net, about a nickel per once. Miners have 3 options at this time a)high-grade b)hedge via paper c) shut down.

We are (because of cost of production for so long) witnessing miners partake in any and all of a) thru c).
Options a) and c) are good for PGA (physical gold avocates) and b) worries me. A) and c) are benefical because it reduces supply. The reduced supply is provided from dishoarders (worried central bank consortium in deep in US$, ready to pack their bags in the event of a US$ crash).
Option b) worries me because there is a 'lien' on the hedged miners' assets, his resources in the ground. The dangerously hedged miner, from no fault of his own, was backed into a corner from these crooked bullion banks. These crooked BB's now have the 'lien' on the producer. I wonder how this will play out? The sudden rise in the price of physical gold (not to be confused with POG) will manifest the default for the dangerously hedged miner and it will be quite the merry-go-round in terms of ownership of the underground gold. I see a fight between bullion banks, central banks and/or governments.

Anyway, as mined production dwindles and dishording continues the observate crowd will notice and spark demand. The accelerating 'spread' will become the paper world's worst nightmare and hopefully (hee, hee) they will try to control the burst dam for awhile and finally gold will slingshot to 4 digits. This fellow physical gold advocates, and I need not remind you, IS NOT A QUESTION OF 'IF', ITS A QUESTION OF WHEN!! And the 'tingly' feeling I get is SOON, less than 1 year.


Canuck@ JMB#552856/3/01; 19:49:31

I stand to be corrected JMB, but I believe it was Hong Kong that started the latest POG dive.

I believe OZ took it up to $298.50 and Hong Kong smacked it for about 7 bucks at its opening.


Black BladeEnergy costs put the squeeze on industry#552866/3/01; 19:50:02

Limited by competition from passing on costs to consumers, companies tighten belts, cut jobs.


"There is no question that the stubbornly high oil prices and unprecedented North American (natural) gas prices are currently battering our industry," Michael Parker, Dow's president and chief executive, told investors recently. Other companies large and small are finding volatile energy costs a profit-squeezing nemesis in a weak economy. Intense competition limits their ability to pass along the costs to consumers, so to cope, many have tightened their belts, often by slashing jobs.

Black Blade: Tip of the iceberg. Ultimately the costs have to be passed on to the consumer and then inflationary pressures are too difficult to conceal. Then reality hits and gold soars.

auspecBlack Blade#552876/3/01; 20:03:15

Derivative Controlled Commodities

This is a rather large snippet from LeMetropole Cafe by Ed Steer:

"Central banks, and PARTICULARLY the U.S. Federal Reserve, are deploying their heavy artillery IN THE BATTLE AGAINST A SYSTEMIC COLLAPSE. This has been their primary concern for at least seven years. Their immediate objectives are to prevent the private sector bond market from closing its' doors to new or refinancing borrowers AND TO FORESTALL A TECHNICAL BREAK IN THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIALS. Keeping the equity index on an even keel IS ESSENTIAL TO PROTECT THE WEALTH OF THE HOUSEHOLD SECTOR AND TO MAINTIAN THE EXPECTATION OF FUTURE GAINS. For as long as these objectives can be achieved, THE VALUE OF THE U.S. DOLLAR CAN ALSO BE STABALIZED in relation to other currencies, DESPITE THE EXTRAORDINARY IMBALANCES IN EXTERNAL TRADE."
{This part is quoted from Peter Warburton, PrudentBear}

(all emphasis are mine. Ed Steer)

"I think if you check other derivatives of all these banks that are up to their eyeballs in gold derivatives, you will find enormous derivative holdings in all commodities, especially the ones that were on the verge of big technical break-outs in the last couple of years."

"You can start with oil...that's the big one. Adam Hamilton could never figure out why even though Saddam Hussein turned off the taps for a couple of months last winter....prices fell....and dramatically too! There's your answer. You can check out this oil story at his web site under the title of: "Saddam-ized: Iraqi Crude Oil"."

"It's also posted under "Top Analyts" at that wonderful gold web site"

"Once you've read it again, run it through the filter of those three paragraphs by Peter Warburton.....and the "fat tail" derivatives problem, and see how it fits in then."

"In the last couple of years there have been many other instances of price break-outs in individual commodities that mysteriously (and some not so mysteriously) stopped dead in their tracks. Here's a list: gold, sugar, cocoa, nickel, copper, aluminum, lead, zinc, cotton, orange juice and natural gas. I'm sure I've left some out, but this is good enough. If you check the metals charts for the first four months of last year, you'll see that most of the metals (non-precious) stopped rising on the same day."

"As a "for instance"....about 40% of American aluminum production disappeared in the last six months......7% of total world production, and the price of aluminum as gone virtually nowhere. If you check the aluminum price graph for the last fifteen months, there's no indication that any such an event ever occurred."

"You can get a better idea of what's going on in the CRB by reading another of Adam Hamilton's recent works "The Great Commodities Bull of the 00's". Check out the graphs on each of the commodities in his report if you doubt me. And keep in mind that those charts are a couple of months old, and cotton, coffee, cocoa, sugar and all the grains have fallen sharply since then."

"If you strip the energy complex out of the CRB....virtually all of the remainder of the components of the CRB are at (or within 3% of) their lowest inflation-adjusted prices this century. Now how is that possible? We know the lies that are being told in silver and gold. I bet that if someone checked the derivatives of the banks we would come up with some interesting statistics for the other commodities as well. How much would you want to bet on that Bill? Another dinner???"

"We are so focused on gold (and also silver), that we forget that there are other commodities in the world. Peter Warburton has this fact nailed too.....along with the reason why the U.S. dollar is so sky-high and why it's likely to stay there until further notice. Of course it nearly goes without saying that I also HIGHLY recommend Peter's article. It's archived under "Guest Analysts" on "Prudent Bear". I'm sorry, but I don't have the link."

"So it appears that "the fix" is in everywhere, and on everything. Gold and silver are only the "canaries in the fiat currency mine" as Adam Hamilton so handsomely puts it, and must be controlled at all costs. The derivative situation overhanging and intertwining everything, cannot be fixed. Derivaties control interest rates, the U.S. dollar, the DOW in general and the S&P futures in particular and commodities. The international banking system is a "dead man walking". All that is happening is that they are trying to keep it afloat as long as possible, and they're running out of aces."

auspec comment- You would think there would at least be a bull market in paper. Mr. Green$pan- Tear down that curtain!

Canuck@ Journeyman#552886/3/01; 20:06:42

$30,000 gold looks like this to me.

Once physical gold fundametals are recognized it will rise a couple hundred dollars maybe to $500-525/oz.

This will spark a 'paper-panic' sling-shotting gold to $1000- $3000.

The ensuing panic will spread to bullion banks, the banking world in general and finally to CB's and government. Suppose gold is $3000. The worthlessness of fiat will be exposed and currency will get you 10 cents on the dollar or for gold it's second 10-bagger.

So in summary gold on its physical merit will double maybe triple, spring a 8 to 10 bagger on the first round (paper gold collapse) and then spring the second 10 bagger on the fiat collapse.


Black BladeCalifornia an Energy Basket Case #552896/3/01; 20:07:52


Whatever your take on the continuing California energy crisis - and there are plenty to choose from - one fact is glaringly apparent. The nation's most populous state is heavily dependent on imports to feed its seemingly insatiable appetite for power. California currently imports about 20% of its electricity and a whopping 85% of its natural gas - 7 billion cubic feet a day - from out-of-state production facilities. And while it is the country's fourth-lowest user of energy on a per capita basis, the state's huge population and its dependence on the energy-guzzling electronics industry ensure that California's need for power will continue growing unabated well into the foreseeable future. Add to that the fact that 20 new gas-fired power plants are scheduled to come on stream over the next two years - four of them this summer alone - and the situation becomes particularly urgent.

Black Blade: Even with some additional "onshore" exploration, the energy picture looks grim for California for the next several years. Overall a good article but main thrust is on specific producers activities. The power drain will raise costs throughout the region and the economic difficulties will be felt first nationally and then globally.

Black BladeRE: auspec#552906/3/01; 20:17:27

That was an interesting/thought provoking read. Thanks. The paper gold issue is well known here. The paper oil analysis sounds reasonable and though I have known that it occurs - I suspect that paper oil is even becoming more prevalent in an effort to manipulate pricing. Other paper such as paper energy is probably a high priority as efforts to control higher energy prices (contracts) is a hot issue in corporate America. I am interested as these paper commodities come face to face with real issues of supply and demand. I find it strange to think of Joe Sixpack drinking paper coffee and paper OJ, while eating his morning paper pork bellies, and paper wheat products. There will be a rude awakening when physical reality faces paper fantasy.

- Black Blade

CanuckTo chartists#552916/3/01; 20:18:48

Have a look at the 30 and 60 day charts over at Kitco.

I see the NY market leading the London fix nearly to a tee.

JMBCANUCK#552926/3/01; 20:30:45

Thank you for the correction. I saw a re-post of SHAREFIN's observation and assumed it topped in OZ land. He was grumbling about 1,200 contracts capping the move, as I recall.
axReply Galearis&Peter Asher US Gold Resrv// NEW DOLLAR INDEX#552936/3/01; 21:09:06

Follow Up Galearis&Peter Asher US Gold Reserves// NEW DOLLAR INDEX

Galearis (6/3/01; 11:01:38MT - msg#: 55247)
@Ax, your yesterday's #55224

Peter Asher (6/3/01; 00:27:50MT - msg#: 55230)
AX & the fly-wheel

Galearis, I agree with you that the ECB is showing more responsible behavior
regarding support of its currency as you say by a hybrid system.

Peter Asher, you are right I should have included the worker in the equation of
what truly supports the currency of a country.


Starting now, I think we should all be using a NEW DOLLAR INDEX based on the
instantaneous gold value of a SINGLE USD expressed in MILLIGRAMS of GOLD.
at a given price of gold.
The TABLE below (related to

ax (06/02/01; 19:08:04MT - msg#: 55216)

shows the MILLIGRAM WEIGHT of GOLD which equals ONE USD at a given
price of gold.

to equal ONE USD)

$ 207.35 150

$ 266.70 (6-01-00 ny close) 116.62

$ 300.00 102.68

$ 311.03 100

$ 414.71 75

$ 622.06 50

$ 1,244.12 25

For any gold price the equivalent value of one USD in milligrams of gold
can be interpolated from the above table or using the following formula:



TannehillDaffynitions#5529406/03/01; 21:15:31

Just remember,
it's a 'recession' if your neighbor gets laid off.
It's a 'depression' if you get laid off. I've been depressed since 1997.

Buy physical, put a geologist to work

Black Blade sure hope TPTB get the new energy sources up and running soon. Or just come on down for some free bubble up and we'll eat some rainbow stew.... Seems OPEC has caught onto the derivatives scam and will soon put the squeeze on gold. They now realize there is lots of paper, but no physical --- and the Chinese are breathing down their necks for physical. Seems to me I would get a few more geologists looking for some oil if the price is going to the moon. Of course, this time it's different, we will just steal what we need, thanks guys its in the vault.....

SHIFTYPeriodic Ponzi Update PPU#5529506/03/01; 21:22:25

Nasdaq 2,149.44 + Dow 10,990.41 = 13,139.85 divide by 2 = 6,569.92 Ponzi

Down 58.28 from last week

Thank you Sir RossL for the link as always. :-)


WarrenAND THE PEOPLE OF THE WHOLE WORLD IS VERY ANGRY>>>#5529606/03/01; 21:34:09

The break down of things that were-things that is-and the things to come.

I wish to say I'm sorry for any mispelling and mistakes you find in this posting. A 6th grade education was a real education when I was in school.You could tell the difference between what was your and what was the goverments. It was a time when your handshake had no mark 666,upon it, and your thoughts had 777 written upon them.

From time to time people were severly punished for speakin words of forgetfulness against the Most High. Punishment was a direct proportion to peoples forgetting the law. The ten commandants.

Today we are not only forgetting them, we are doing away with them, We are breaking them to pieces.

Fortunly we have history to guide us along the way as to what the next outcome may be.

Let me say here and now that I hold no disdain for gold or silver or any other hard asset. On the contary, Things started falling apart when the peoples gold was stolen from them. The beginning of war in high places between the spirit of evil and the Spirit of good.

The stealing of people sound monetary system is evil, witchcraft,and an abomination before God and causes men to become servant to that darkness.A world that man looses his way in that darkness. War in high places . For maybe one person in a million may figure out how they are being taken down the road to be the servants of men who poses as their protector. Oh sure, some of it is in the open to be used as a tool to draw men into that darkness.

Throughout the ages men have murdered, stolen declared wars and conspiried to hold on to the precious metal over the very blood of famalies. It is no difference today.

GOLD and Silver are monetary metals to everyone in all times. We will never see a gold and silver standard every again. I supect when everything falls apart there will be no money and barter will be the way of life.Even those that have all the gold in their vaults will starve from want. For now men have murdered the whole of mankind and even the earth itself is in rebellion.

When men stand up to the darkness they are destroyed without mercy before the whole world. A warning that no independent thinking will not be tolerated.This is the war of all wars that countries have brought upon themselves. The end o the world, I don't know, WW11 is a warning to how short a time it takes for men destroy a fragile world it is how men can destroy so much in such a short time.
As for myself and my family we have set our hopes in the mercy of God and His Son.
WE will neither look forward or backwards or worry about the price of gold and wait to become rich. As for me I have more riches than I can count now.
The whole world is very angry.

Black BladeRE: Tannehill (06/03/01; 21:15:31MT - msg#: 55294)#5529706/03/01; 21:38:43

I know many geologists who have bailed on mining and vow never to return, only to pop up in the NG and oil business. I have to admit that I am constantly surprised to come across minerals people that I know every week from Nevada. Petroleum's gain is mining's loss. I feel no sympathy for the mining companies. They made their own bed and they can lie in it as far as I am concerned. They high-grade their ore, they forward sell their reserves, etc. and then they have the gall to whine and snivel about the POG. Fortunately geologists and others can easily leave the mining side and probably make out much better in the petroleum side. When the POG soars, the mining companies will look around and find that no one is left to help them out and they will have to offer several times the wages that they are used to paying. Then of course, they will have the unmitigated gall to whine and snivel all over again. The hell with them. Any geologist or most mining related personnel that really wants work has no problem finding it in the petroleum patches. Pretty cool, eh! Cheers!

- Black Blade

TannehillGold or silver, decisions - decisions, oh my#5529806/03/01; 21:43:07

"Never have so many people had such difficulty in meeting their necessary obligations, since the Great Depression. Just heard that on National News. Must be George W. Hoover's fault.

Besides George W., what other president lost a Republican controlled Congress that was handed to him? Hoover.

Is the picture coming into focus yet?"

06/02/01 4:14 PM

Little bit of tension out there in the real physical world.

that's all from Tannehill

NetkingMexico - Silver currency. . . . #552996/3/01; 22:30:47

Does anybody have a progress update where Mexico is at with
the currency & silver question being looked at by their Govt?

JourneymanThe "Derivatives Effect" -- relevant reposts @Christian, Black Blade, and others too numerous to mention#553006/3/01; 22:32:25

Hi folks!

Back in Feb. I posted five questions to ORO about what I was
calling "the derivatives effect," which he answered. It seems
that several others have now re-touched this notion today and

It might be helpful for those of you who are thinking this way to
look over those Feb. posts: Journeyman (2/20/2001; 13:21:51MT - msg#: 48614) and: ORO (2/22/2001; 0:32:46MT - msg#: 48702)

My notion was that thru derivatives depressing price,
particularly when they are a major part of the traded market for
anything, and particularly when they include shorts mistaken for
actual supply, they increase demand thru lower apparent prices
while at the same time they tend to depress actual physical
supply because it becomes less profitable (or perhaps a money
loser) to produce at these lower apparent prices.

Does this happen in products other than gold? Like soybeans,
pork bellies, etc.? Maybe electricity, for example? Yes, there
are indeed electric power derivatives.

If this effect is wide-spread, it's a symptom of the "financial
economy" eating the real economy as energy (human hours & other
investment) is siphoned-off from the real economy by higher
perceived real interest rates apparently available from investing
these resources in the financial economy. If this effect is
real, this would tend to put real economy businesses under
extreme pressure to become more productive, liquidate existing
inventory, postpone maintenence and/or upgrading of capital
equipment. And put them out of business (Homestake closing the
oldest NA gold mine, etc.)

This is a nice theory, but does it hold water?


turbohawgET#553016/3/01; 22:54:55

Regarding Msg 55260:

> Our "FreeGold" (TM) advocates are using the term in an apparent effort to confuse the issue …

The entire idea rings of socialism although the terms they've chosen in an effort to sell it to the public sound good to the average reader who is probably not looking too closely at the details ...

Their scheme would be better titled "RegGold" (TM), as far as I can tell.<

Yes, one might even label their spin as Klintonian. How about K-Gold ?

In fact, the underlying message conveyed sounds remarkably similar to the case made by G. Edward Griffin in The Creature from Jekyll Island. It's been awhile since I read his book, but if I remember correctly, Griffin states that there is and has been an effort underway to create one world government through one world currency. Recognizing that it would be particularly difficult to bring the US into the fold due to the sovereign attitude of its citizens, the conspirators plan was/is to bring the US economy to its knees and the citizens into such desperation that they'd acquiesce to the use of a foreign (fiat) currency.

If such a scheme truly exists and assuming that the euro is the chosen fiat vehicle of entrapment, and if I were a promoter of it and had future profit expectations from it, I might be tempted to encourage individuals in the US to buy gold now in order to be able to sell them euros later. Afterall, if they were broke, I sure wouldn't be able to loan my euros into existence through them. But if they had gold to trade for my euros, I would accomplish two things: my fiat euro supply could be expanded and I would have the gold (which would also help me to ensure that a real gold standard of any sort, public or private, would never arise to compete with my fiat).

Well, before we consider any of our anointed Forum gurus eurosocialist conspirators, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt and simply assume that there is a misunderstanding. Perhaps they'll re-appear and make it clear once and for all.

The Sunday night musings of a diehard advocate of individual liberty.


Black BladeTannehill - More Miners/Explorationist Leaving Gold Mining Behind#553026/3/01; 23:11:00

Posted by Questioner at another site:


On another note and this is not investment advice but if you read the previous link in the Elko Daily Free Press very carefully this line was originally going to serve NE Nevada and the Power Plant but they are talking about increasing the capicity by a substantial amount. For what it is worth some of the locally based drill exploration companies are heading to Wyoming for some drilling projects in gas fields. (As a matter of fact if gold really screams the exploration rigs may be few and far between.) Put two and two together here and if this pipeline is going to be at a greater capacity then perhaps black gold in the form of gas may be a better place to make $$$ than a gold mine.

Black Blade: I wasn't going to say anything, but as this has been already posted on another forum here it is. I know these people he's referring to, and they are not alone. Of course, as gold is cheap, the better it is to acquire.

Netking"POG $1,233" - Schmidt#553036/4/01; 00:31:56

The wreck of the techs is just beginning. The crash of these stocks will ignite the Gold SUPER CYCLE. We believe that US$1,233 is easily attainable when the tech/net/smoke stock bubble bursts.(Schmidt Management Company reports on their target for Au). . . .
". . . $1,233 GOLD", details the risks for the U.S. dollar, AND the opportunity in Gold. The exploding trade deficit in the United State is of more than a little concern. This deficit is the reason that interest rates in the U.S. have been rising, and are likely to rise to double digit levels. Analysts outside of North America are deeply concerned about the GREENSPAN BUBBLE, and the ramifications of it popping. That the GREENSPAN BUBBLE will pop is only an issue of when rather than if. Concern over the growing likelihood of the U.S. dollar being forced into a dramatic devaluation probably played a role in the ECB's decision to restrict sales/loans of Gold.

The preconditions for Gold rising to over US$1,233 are in place. You need to be there this time. U.S. investors stuck in the dollar will not get a second chance.

The NEW PARADIGM is dollar devalution and Gold. The REAL NEW PARADIGM is the GOLD SUPER CYCLE. . ."

ChristianRequest for Information#553046/4/01; 07:40:07

A request for information under the Freedom of Information Act
1- Who owns the gold at West Point, New York classified as custodial gold? Was this gold swapped for Bundesbank gold and used for gold leasing operations by our central banks to turn commodity gold into credit creation gold priced much higher then that very commodity gold? Why is this credit creation gold used to enslave we the people to buy material goods made possible by mortgaging our inflated homes, land and other physical assets? AT WHAT PRICE DOES CREDIT CREATION GOLD TRADE BETWEEN CENTRAL BANKS? 2- Why are these "gold swaps" not made public nor reported to Congress? Why are a group of men (crooks) allowed to use these gold swaps to facilitate the leasing of commodity gold and turn it into credit creation gold priced many times the commodity price? Why is the general public not allowed to do the same? Is the general public a lower class of people? 3- What "gold swaps" have been made by the ESF, Treasury, FED or member banks of the Fed in the last 70 so years since the birth of the ESF? Why was Hitler, Karl Marx, Lenin and the likes financed by USA gold? 4- Why have gold swaps been used to move the commodity gold belonging to the people been transferred to BIS (Bank of International Settlements) and divided up among Rubin, Greenspan,Corizone, former president William Jefferson Rockefeller better known as Clinton, Bush Sr. and others? Why have the Swiss jettisoned the BIS as their gold sales agent. Is it not that Greenspan and McDonough who sit on BIS's board of directors use BIS as the instrumental agent of the Gold Cartel in which they themselves belong to? Why is the book Written by Alan Greenspan titled Kreieren Undergang banned from publication? Is it not fact that BIS is a gold lender that does not even belong to them? How far can these known gold short positions expand- Bis 10,000 tonnes, USA 20,000 tonnes, Germany 10,000 tonnes, Japan Australia Canada combined 10,000 tonnes? 5- Why is M3 growth up !% a week? M2 growth 1/2% a week? Who owns the Class A shares of the Federal Reserve? Why does it collect interest on issued print money of which the interest cost is never issued into print? Why is the FED allowed to circulate dollars through the system where a % of wealth and freedom are lost to the FED. Why is the FED using GSE government sponsored agencies like the FNMA + FHLB to entice local banks to sell their mortgages to them? Is it not in our Constitution that money is "specie", gold and silver in coin form? Why are we using FED printed money to enslave us with? Why is there a plan for a one world currency made possible by a group of people who have bestowed on themselves the exclusive right to reprice commodity gold into credit creation gold priced whatever they want it to be? Why does the very same group use derivatives that make possible to add none physical supply of anything be it gold, silver, corn, soybeans etc to depress physical supply? Why is this price depression effect allowed in order for the financial entity to consume the real economy? Why is capital spending being siphoned off from the real economy to the stock market dot coms? Is the stock market a "Money Exchange or a Betting Pool" where people trade equities in competition with the ESF? Why is the FED forcing Asian and European countries to trade their USA Treasury holdings for GSE debt? Why are we mortgaging American homes to foreigners? 6- Why is the ESF paying to spray our skies to increase the OH ions by using barium to absorb sun's e-rays? Barium gets vaporized by the sun to form clouds. Our forests which are the extension of our lungs are turnning into shrubbery because trees are forced to turn their branches into leaders to reach for the sun in an attempt to absorb sunlight the barium does not let through. Why does the nitrogen and potassium value odf a ton of pulp exceed the market value of the wood? Why are we highgrading our forests by harvesting the best and leave the rest? Does this have anything to do with the people having to buy air at the store at a future date?- or are we the old and weak to die earlier to save on Social Security and Medical costs?
7- Why is Greenspan who invented the expression "Irrational Excuberance" the same man whose financial policy was allowed to fuel the bubble? Why was Rubin allowed to prepetrate a massive Pump-n-Dump stragegy on the American people? Rubin and friends dumbed stocks while Greenspan pumped money supply all made possible through the fasilities of the FED and the tacit approval of the SEC + Nasdaq.

Buena FeFed's Greenspan, ECB's Duisenberg See Tame Inflation #553056/4/01; 07:45:18

....The strength of the dollar is evidence that inflation is not a short-term concern in the U.S., Greenspan said. The Fed's trade- weighted dollar index, which measures the dollar against a basket of currencies from the country's largest trading partners, is at its highest level in two months.

``Obviously our exchange rate is firm and rising and that is not the type of thing one would ordinarily envisage in the context of inflationary pressures,'' Greenspan said.....


Gandalf the WhiteWhen one includes ERRORS in a post, is the whole post TRASH ?#553066/4/01; 08:11:59

Christian (6/4/01; 07:40:07MT - msg#: 55304)
Request for Information
"6- Why is the ESF paying to spray our skies to increase the OH ions by using barium to absorb sun's e-rays?"
Please SIR Christian tell me what "OH ions" are ?????
What form are these in ?? AND how does Barium "absorb the sun's e-rays" ???

ChristianCorrections#553076/4/01; 08:34:27

Sorry for my mistakes, a lot of thing are bothering me and I am in a hurry. OH-ions= Hydroxide (SP)? e-rays should be x-rays. I have a problem, ever since I started posting about credit creation gold being priced at a higher price everything I do is under close inspection. Even my soil sample had to be checked. Lucky I was smart enough to send the same soil sample to two different places. You can't trust nobody. I can't even take home a roll of quarters from the bank without having a report done on me.
USAGOLDToday's Commentary: Euro Exchange Could Create New Gold Demand#5530806/04/01; 08:57:57

6/3/01 ( . . .Gold was stable
to down slightly overseas and in early New York trading.
The Iraqi oil shut-off which has taken the crude oil price
up about 75¢ in the early going has had minimal effect on
gold thus far. Fears among European savers that they will
be cheated in the upcoming January, 2002 currency
exchange could send savers to gold instead of the new
currency at least for the interim. . . . . . . .

To read the rest of today's report, we inite you
to join us at our private access COMMENTARY
& REVIEW page. A simple, one-time
registration is required. Please go to the link above.

AbsoluteX3 Moinths T-Bills Breaking ??#5530906/04/01; 09:00:26

IRX 35.90 +0.50 (+1.41)
fastinfoLawsuit against Nesbitt Burns#5531006/04/01; 09:18:12

The bigest scam after Bre-x

Read this !!

Al FulchinoET//Thomas Sowell#5531106/04/01; 09:25:09

Me ET, since you brought him up. Take a peek at Ethnic America, by Mr Sowell. We read much of this book aloud to the kids a few years back during one of our countrwide road trips. God Bless the man.
Camel; 09:30:24

The new revelations that the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission in 1995 (Clinton -Gore) prevented California from building several new power plants is a little surprising so maybe a little more investigation is necessary to see who actually appointed this Board .

Ms. Lynch , who as Chair of the California Public Utility Commission (CPUC) would be the Queen of the California Grasshoopers, wanted to build two geothermal plants and a wind plant totalling 1300 megawatts that would have been online by 1999 giving California plenty of power . The CPUC was prevented from doing so by the FERC citing a law that stated that they could not authorize such plants because the plants at the time produced electricity that was slightly more expensive (6 cents per kwh) than what was then the current market price.

This Reaganesque law which in effect disallows the use of the mind as a tool in long term planning, prevents the CPUC from attempting to analyzye long term energy price trends, prevents it from considering any other social benifit such as reducing air polution, and prevents it from diversifying into other forms of energy and is another part of the 20 year campaign of disinformation, sabotage and obsfucation conducted by the U.S Government against conservation and alternative energy.

This whole deregulation fiasco almost certainly originates with Reagan and is an attempt to put the nations utilities back intio the hands of the big corporations where it was in the 1890s when the Municipal Utility Companies were formed as a reaction to the big monopolies that had total control of electric greneration and were unmercifully gouging the public.

The problem then as it is now is that a sizeable portion of the U.S. Government is in the hip pocket of the big corporations in the oil and automobile industries with their inter-locking Boards of Directors and army of lobbyists. Does this really surprise anyone here?

MoutainGoldNetking: Great Post#5531306/04/01; 09:31:27

Really a little silly to project an exact price for Gold's high, but $1200 to $1500 is likely. The trader in me.

The key market on this planet is the USDollar. This market will be the catalyst for most other markets.

Gold and Silver are seasonally strong till August. This summer could be dull for stocks but explosive for Gold Silver and foreign currencies.

Dull markets so going Golfing

Good Luck All Larer....

Gold Trail UpdateThe Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated#5531406/04/01; 09:36:55">The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
Gandalf the WhiteWelcome Back, FISHERMAN FOA TG#5531506/04/01; 09:56:16

Gold Trail Update (06/04/01; 09:36:55MDT - Msg ID:55314)
The Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated
The Hobbits have been awaiting some more golden TRUTH !

RockgrabberBlack Blade#5531606/04/01; 10:05:18

Sir, does OPEC actually have the ability to suddenly drum up 3 million barrels a day to take up Iraqs slack?
Buena FeU.S. Bonds Rise; Investors Optimistic Inflation in Contained#5531706/04/01; 10:15:15

..........Treasuries advanced after Greenspan said inflation isn't a ``significant problem at this moment,'' allaying concern among some investors that five interest-rate reductions since January would spur higher prices. He spoke via satellite to the International Monetary Conference in Singapore.

``As long as the Fed paints a picture of low inflation, bond yields are attractive, especially with a 4 percent fed funds target that'' may fall as low as 3.5 percent, said George Adell, director of research at Philadelphia-based Starboard Capital Markets, referring to the central bank's target interest rate.

Reverse Course

Investors had been selling 30-year bonds on expectations faster inflation would erode their fixed return. Yields had gained as much as 65 basis points to 5.91 percent between March 20 and May 15, the date of the Fed's most recent rate cut, to compensate for the threat of faster inflation. Since then, yields have fallen 24 basis points........


WW OracleMy Rant on the Euro#5531806/04/01; 10:28:08

The Euro is melting away! Continentals are fleeing the new currency and rushing to dollars, which aggravates the Wall Street bubble while starving Europe of needed capital. Dim Wim says he doesn't care as long as price stability (internal) is achieved.

Can't the ECB see that increasing the gold in its reserves is the answer? How can they be so blind?

Tree in the ForestHow manipulation works#5531906/04/01; 10:46:14

These are 2 snippets from GE which clearly illustrate how manipulation works. The first is from Clif Droke:

"E.H. Harriman, known to many as "The Great Manipulator," cemented the family's fortune in 1989(1889 ed.), when the syndicate he headed to acquire the Union Pacific line, which was then in the hands of a receiver. Having brought the Union Pacific out of bankruptcy into prosperity, he utilized his position to draw other lines within his control, notably the Southern Pacific in 1910.

Back in his day around the turn of the last century, Harriman was many times able to control the entire tone of the market through his manipulation campaigns in Union Pacific stock, as well as the stock of other railroads he hoped to acquire. He could boast as his investment partners and chief associates such names as William Rockefeller, H.H. Rogers, National City Bank, and Kuhn, Loeb & Co.

Old man Harriman's method in such campaigns were to first poke a stock down to as low levels as he thought advisable; then gather in everything he could find within a certain buying zone. There would be drives for the purpose of shaking out weak holders who had placed stop orders or who could be scared off by signs of weakness. After this, Harriman would keep his stock dead within a range of a few points, for weeks at a time, so that nobody could make any money trading in it and those who held it would be discouraged, throw it out and get into more active issues. In other words, he first shook them out, then he tired them out. This was a strategy that his great-grandson, Andrew Harriman, would later learn to perfect in his dealings in the gold market."

The second snippet is from John Brimelow:

"A significant development last night was the capitulation of the Dean of American newsletter writers, Richard Russell. Over quite a few years, Russell's strategy has been to watch gold closely, sometimes buying and sometimes selling shares and options, but constantly advocating the steady accumulation of bullion coins on a classical gold bug view. Consequently his comments on "gold items" below is particularly notable:

"What to do with the golds? Personally, I'm partially giving up. I sold half of my options, and I'm holding the other half which don't expire until December. But the gold action is discouraging. I wouldn't buy any gold items here, and I wouldn't hold a bunch of gold items either. I repeat, damn it, more money has probably been lost on gold and silver than has ever been made. That's the metal markets, love 'em or leave 'em. ""

Me: Manipulation works! Are you manipulated?

Cavan ManWW Oracle#5532006/04/01; 10:47:56

They must have a plan (or do I give them too much credit) for, they appear to be complete idiots (which I know they're not). Is their best card still in their hand?
WarrenSURIVAL IS THE ORDER OF THE TIME>>>>#5532106/04/01; 10:53:32

All: It seems to me that the reason that my gold and silver is not going up is self preversation. All the markets are well aware of what the outcome would be if it did. It would mean that they, whether they be in the USA or manfacture in other countries could not survive. The industries and the countries is in between a rock and a hard place. The Treasure and the president, and all the people in the know, may soon start dieing off by the pressure of trying to hold things together until they are either out, or got all their ducks linedup.

Now as I see it,If gold and silver did begin a rise above 300$ of any proportion, (As it has done) controll would be lost and all the money of most countries would be worthless. The exception would be a very few since they keep their printing presses underworked and wouldn't have enough money to supply the worlds needs for currency.

Lets just suppose that gold rose to $ 1000. an ounce within the next three months. That would bring manfactureing to a halt in every industry in the countries they reside. The only thing that would happen is that the few people that had the foresight to purchase gold would be out of debt in notes written in dollar contract. The short supply of a resurve currency would bring working, savings, and spending to such a stall all the other income and outgo would cease. The same thing would happen even if half the people in the USA had purchased gold and silver.The biggest market in the world would all of a sudden become too poor to buy their products.

I think that maybe gold will go to 30-40-50-thousand an oz.
If this did happen industry and goverment could not gearup in time. The populations of countries would find they were not able to keep pace with the style of living that now exist. There is no other way to avoid the inevable crash unless the US$ becomes backed by the free float of gold and silver and then maybe the a soft landing would be possible as the markets unwind naturally. Gold and slver would have to rise to cover all the outstanding dollars in the world. I don't think that would become a problem. But it would be the best of of all worlds.

I believe all the industries in all the countries including the countries they reside has no other choice but to purchase dollars and sell gold and silver short.

This of course is not the idea to teach someone something they don't know, its just makes me feel beter to say it.
I figure if you are in a burning house and theres only one door, Thats the only way out one would be expected to use it at some time.

Black BladeFERC, California, and Bungled Deregulation - Yes Virginia, In This Case There Is No Santa Claus#5532206/04/01; 10:56:45

The role of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission is by law restricted to:

The 1)regulation of the transmission and sale for resale of natural gas in interstate commerce; 2) regulates the transmission of oil by pipeline in interstate commerce; 3) regulates the transmission and wholesale sales of electricity in interstate commerce; 4) licenses and inspects private, municipal and state hydroelectric projects; 5) oversees related environmental matters and 6) administers accounting and financial reporting regulations and conducts of jurisdictional companies. Not the construction and location of power generating facilities.

Much of the California deregulation fiasco is centered in the fact that there was no deregulation. Politicians think that because they are elected, they somehow are instant experts on every subject. In California, we have Kommissar "Red" Davis, Sen. Babs "Boxcar" Boxer, and Sen. Diane FineSwine who have opposed the building of power generation facilities, at least until very recently. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) an office within the Department of Energy has recently taken fire from some apologists for the socialist elements in the California political power structure.

The federal agency charged with ensuring the stability of the nation's power system gave California the go-ahead to deregulate its electric utilities despite critical flaws evident to its own experts. And once deregulation was under way in 1998, the Clinton-Gore-Richardson led agency did little to police the state's market, even though it has a legal obligation to ensure that prices are ``just and reasonable.'' However, the FERC has no authority to dictate to the state how, when and where within the state's boundary's whether or not power generating facilities can be built. They regulate interstate wholesale power pricing. California created their own "deregulation" law although the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has played a central role where over 80 separate times they gave orders approving, revising or rejecting parts of the plan with respect to wholesale pricing. California went further by capping rates for the end user without examining the effects of higher prices for unregulated power on the spot market - oops!

A media sponsored review found that FERC, eager to promote deregulation and reluctant to cross California politicians, generating companies and utilities pushing the state's groundbreaking plan, ignored detailed criticism from one of the nation's top deregulation experts and its own staff members, including its chief economist. California regulators and politicians could have stepped in at any time to accept or reject any FERC recommendation as it pertained to power generating facilities within the borders of California. FERC probably did not do as good a job as it should have monitoring the new energy-trading market. However, California ceded it's own regulatory role and therefore ushered in the "deregulation (reregulation) fiasco."

FERC's primary job is to create a competitive market for electricity and keep the lights on. FERC has a responsibility to rule on deregulation plans because, under a 66-year-old federal law, it regulates wholesale electricity. The law says the agency must ensure that wholesale prices are ``just and reasonable,'' though neither Congress nor the courts have made clear what that means in a deregulated market. For decades, FERC's responsibilities were much simpler. The agency set rates for wholesale electricity using a formula based on generating costs plus a fair profit. But the agency took steps to change its role in the early '80s, when it helped set into motion the forces that would lead to California's deregulation. In 1982, two years after President Reagan's election, a FERC lawyer named Robert Angyal wrote an internal memo assuring commissioners that the ambiguity of ``just and reasonable'' gave them ample room to experiment with free-market sales of electricity.

FERC commissioners, generating companies, utilities and politicians -- both Democrats and Republicans -- all argued that competition could both reduce rates and boost profits, just as it had for natural gas, airlines and other markets. In 1992, The Democrat controlled Congress passed a law encouraging open access. FERC took the next key step when Chairwoman Betsy Moler, a free-market Democrat, sat down at her kitchen table one morning to begin drafting Order 888, named after the agency's address in Washington, D.C. The order, finalized in April 1996, encouraged the emergence of free markets by requiring utilities to open their transmission lines to competing power companies, but it did little to prepare the agency to monitor the markets and make sure companies competed fairly. FERC officials say the agency took a hands-off approach, despite conducting hearings and receiving thousands of documents.

The state simply dropped the ball during the "deregulation" process. What resulted was an unprecedented transfer of power from the state to the federal government. Prior to the bill's passage, state regulators had control over most of the power generated in California, setting prices and making sure enough electricity was available. Now much of the power is generated by private companies -- not state-regulated utilities -- and only FERC has the authority to step in when wholesale prices climb. They do not have the authority to deny the state (or any state) the right to allow the construction of power generating facilities. California's attempt to pass the buck is at best disingenuous and at worst an outright falsehood.

- Black Blade

WW Oracle@Cavan Man#5532306/04/01; 11:02:46

Since these are supposed to be intelligent people at the ECB, and their plans are not apparently in the best interests of the euro-zone, the natural suspicion is that they are acting in their own, personal interests.
Black BladeRE: Rockgrabber (06/04/01; 10:05:18MT - msg#: 55316)#5532406/04/01; 11:13:59

Black Blade
Sir, does OPEC actually have the ability to suddenly drum up 3 million barrels a day to take up Iraqs slack?

Black Blade: As of about 6 months ago, the only producer with excess capacity was Saudi, whereas Kuwait had commented that they could not increase their output. At the time World production was at about 77 million bbl/day and the Saudis had about a 5 million bbl/day excess capacity. This would fall just short of Iraq's roughly 5.4 million bbl/day output capacity, though Iraqi production and capacity numbers vary, it is possible that other producers could squeeze out a bit more crude to make up for any shortfall. It would probably be a close call between production and demand should Iraq turn off the spigot and send Hydrocarbon Man into fits of withdrawal. The resulting tightness of supply could be the reason for Saudis reluctance to increase production. They don't want to sell their depleting finite resources for a song. On the other hand, Iraq has few friends left, and they could be playing their cards right as OPEC meets to set production quotas. Should OPEC raise any production, then Iraq could simply raise all out production in order to slam oil prices and to punish the Oil World for what they feel is unjust treatment and lack of Arab support. Dare I say it? These are "interesting times."

dragonflyJourneyman, ET, Belgian, turbohawg#5532506/04/01; 11:36:18

Journeyman - Thanks for the welcome back. I kinda bounce around as my handle implies and I am recently trying to get my mind around the Freegold (spelling???)idea presented by Trail Guide. Sometimes it works well to try and elaborate or defend an idea at the same time one is trying to grok it, at least so it is in my case. Appreciate your thoughts as always. Keep on swingin that big bat!!

ET - I will post again to respond to your 55260 as soon as I am able to spend some time and collect my thoughts. Thanks for your patience.

Belgian - You said "Can you precise what you understand under the un-freedom of gold?" I'm not clear on the question, can you expand on it? Thanks.

turbohawg - You said "Well before we consider any of our anointed Forum gurus eurosocialist conspirators, maybe we should give them the benefit of the doubt and simply assume that there is a misunderstanding. Perhaps they'll re-appear and make it clear once and for all." --- Since I never aspire to guruhood I can't thank you for the benefit of the doubt (my eurosocialist conspiratorialism is merely 'guilt-by-dissociation' <grin>) I think I have drawn some of the fire from ET for fooling around with the Freegold idea and its implications in a couple of recent posts but I am certainly no expert on these matters and can only reason with what understanding I have managed to gain. We'll see how it goes.

aunuggetsQuestion for the "Deep Thinkers"#5532606/04/01; 11:38:32

If gold is in fact being used or "manipulated" for the purpose of "credit creation" at multiples of it's current spot or commodity price level, doesn't it make sense that in such a case, the commodity price of AU would basically be a moot point ? Would not a doubling of the commodity price also create the ability to double the "credit creation" bottom line figure ?

The more I read and take into consideration the manipulation of the AU markets, the more it seems to me that "their" bottom line is actually much the same as many of us here....... accumulation of physical.

Go with the flow...... keep on accumulating ! And remember that "all that gold" is going into very strong (and very knowledgable) hands SOMEWHERE. Rather than "Following in the footsteps of giants", I like to think of myself as "Following the accumulation programs of giants...." (grin)

BelgianA Central Banker speaks....#5532706/04/01; 12:17:10

H. Ferhani (HF) from the Bank of France at LBMA conference in Signapore.
This gentlemen (pro-gold) is trying to explain why lease rates are behaving as they do (volatility).
Nothing, absolutely nothing, in his speech contains something fundamentally usefull for me. Allow me to communicate my impressions after repeated efforts to understand the content as a ordinarry citizen.

HF, as a professional, speaks as an observer and realises together with us that Gold (POG) is behaving ab-normal (changes).
I was expecting him to pinpoint the reasons WHY.
Market liquidity occasionnally drying up. Why ?
HF elaborates on Central Bank Gold Agreement (CBGA) (WA).
Official sector has a responsable attitude towards the market. Did we expect something else ? A long term commitment among the signatories, regarding the gold market. He is talking about citizen's gold, not his own or the CB's gold .Diversity as active market participants (CBs)
actives and long termers.The CBGA is NOT a sellers or lenders cartel ! Well my dear friend HF, glad you are confirming exactly the opposite as what CBs are doing !
HF is constantly talking about the selling of gold. He never mentions the buying. He stresses that the market must be efficient. Transparency and Predictability !!!!
That is the purpose of the WA (CBGA). Posters all together here : is the goldmarket transparent and predictable to all of you ? What is this man's salary ?
This is remarkable : the agreement (WA) covers all signatories central bank activities in the gold market : SELLING + LENDING + DERIVATIVES !! buying !!!!!! Another way to say that no WA -CB is or will buy Gold. But these honorable men, want "orderly market conditions". Since 85% of official gold holdings (34.480 tonnes) are more or less affected by the terms of the agreement...all irregularities from CB-side must come from the remaining 15%.
If CB actions are so predictable...why are they using different ways to sell their gold ? (UK/Swiss/Austria etc)

Lease rate volatility is the result of liquidity problems.
It are the non-signatories who are responsible for that.
Voilà. Lease market squeezed and spot remains lacklustre.
And on top of that, the producers are in the capability to produce too much gold at rockbottom prices (currency-weakness + mining-technology). Add the sluggish demand factor and all the culprits are known. Here this gentlemen is contradicting himself by mentionning that there are as many goldprices as there are currencies and stating clearly that aal currencies except the dollar were lucky to have gold at their selfdefense. He also forgets that gold-consumption has increased for the last 7 years. But has been offset by de-vestment of private gold ! Who the hell is (has sold )going to sell it's ultimate reserve and store of wealth at these idiotic prices ? European buyers have some 20% profit (in Euro)on their physical holdings for the past 3 years. No-one takes that profit now. But unfortunately, we can't discuss that with Mr. HF himself.
There is no reason to expect a scaleback of official gold lent ! There is a kind of natural progression in the attitude of CBs vis à vis gold from "diehard holders" to lenders first and to sellers eventually !!!! Is this as much as saying...let's privatize all the gold ?
At the end of the day, we are in a bear market because inflation is absent and real interest rates are positive.
Voilà !

I don't want to bother the readers with another 1001 questions on the in between the lines of the Bank of France, text. One major conclusion is that that the surrounding opaque on gold, proves that Gold still remains a frighthening force to be reckoned with. The officials don't dare to democratize it (yet). Dispite the transparence and predictability blablablah. Still feeling comfortable ? Collect some more, here at CPM.

Christian(No Subject)#5532806/04/01; 12:21:44

Gold is being used to manipulate for the purpose of credit creation at multiples of it's current commodity price. The owners of class A shares of the FED who also own BIS have taken on to themselves to reprice commodity gold for use of credit creation or credit creation gold priced at a much higher price. The dollar will only get stronger as more and more debt is pilled on the people and the cost of interest takes more and more of their income. THAT IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE PEOPLE TO CREATE THEIR OWN CREDIT. Make the INTEREST payable to yourself. It is the only way out of this economic concentration camp. You will never enrich yourself by paying interest to someone else who prints the very money the loan consists of. The credit creation gold people can price the credit creation gold so high as to actually back the currency. AT WHAT PRICE DOES CREDIT CREATION GOLD change HANDS between central banks. It is this part that makes the whole ponzi scheme possibe. They have an advantage and somehow we got to take that advantage away. The only way I can see it is not borrow from them. We got to create our own credit. Credit is another word for control. It says so in the book titled Creative Destruction by Alan Greenspan. Ask Greenspan what money is in his book and it says CONTROL. He can not say that on the news or in front of Congress but he has and can say it privately.
Belgian@Dragonfly#5532906/04/01; 12:30:52

I have some difficulties with the permanent "Freegold" mis-interpretation. To me as an individual, physical gold is as free as can be. Buying / selling and holding can be done in all freedom for as much as I can dream off. I am free to name "my" price at anyone at any given moment. And we are all free to take it or leave it. So, I would like to understand what exactly is meant by naming Gold not being free. Thanks you Sir.
RockgrabberChristian, Black Blade:#5533006/04/01; 12:39:58

Thanks for your posts. I am a bit confused on the subject of credit creation gold, however I love to be confused! What would be your most simplified definition of "Credit Creation Gold"? I am going to go have to read your previous posts.

Blake Blade, interesting times?? You bet ya!!! I was able to get some Calls filled on crude friday, but was didapointed with the size of this move today. I suppose it is good the day before OPEC meets. Dont want the market to take off, right before OPEC meeting, they would be more pressured to do something I would suppose. I am sure they dont care to be pressured anymore then they already are. Thanks good Sir. Israel looks very close to striking an attack right now at anytime. Some of their Goverment officials are promising to attack anytime. At any time.

ETdragonfly#5533106/04/01; 12:54:00

Hey dragonfly - thanks for your thoughts. My post to Belgian was simply an explanation of how I view the FreeGold (TM) issue. It was not in any way directed at you, sorry if that appeared to be the case.

You know, I've always found it interesting since this forum began, that many viewpoints can be shared and debated, such as the inflation/deflation/stagflation stuff, and the methodology for fixing markets (particularly gold), with logic and reason being the common denominator. The issue of this so-called FreeGold (TM), however, has been a bit different. It has been presented, more or less, as a top-down solution to the above and other problems. At the heart of it, however, has been the notion of giving up on free markets in favor of assigning arbitrary values. From my point of view, exactly what we have today. As turbo has also pointed out, it strikes me more as an agenda, then just an opinion, as if we are hearing a "trial balloon", so to speak. I don't know if this is actually the case, but it has all the appearances.

The logical flaws in the FreeGold (TM) argument are apparent, have been noted, but remain unaddressed by the advocates. We heard again, just the other day, another advocate say that history shows us "over and over" that sound money has never had much success, even though Journeyman has pointed out many times the exact periods of such success. No appeal to logic, reason, history or common sense seems to faze the advocates as they just continue to repeat the same mantra.

I don't know what to make of the whole thing. Perhaps all will be revealed in time. Good to see you back!

goldfanJourneyman msg#: 55300 Derivatives Effect#5533206/04/01; 13:13:49

Journeyman msg#: 55300)
The "Derivatives Effect" -- relevant reposts @Christian, Black Blade, and others too numerous to mention

Thanks Sir Journeyman for your exposition on the way in which "derivatives" may contribute to eliminating productive enterprise. I understand that the total daily trading volume on the US Stock Exchanges is 3X the GNP!! Which says I think that financial activity is by far the largest economic activity in the US today. So this is proof of your thesis, is it not?? We will all pay dearly for this misallocation of human effort and attention, as if we had spent our lives constructing Cinderella's coach, which will self-destruct some midnight soon..


Christian(No Subject)#5533306/04/01; 13:38:05

We are trading Soybeans, Corn, Wheat on the Chicage Board of Trade at least 50 times annual production. The amount of gold traded is many times amount in storage. Greenspan has said that 1/2 of the GNP consists of trading financial assets and the other 1/2 consists of actually producing something. Even the Loan Deficiency Payments that are available to farmers who elect to use acerage planted to wheat, barley or oats, for grazing by livestock and agree to forgo any harvesting of the commodity is considered actually producing something. Really funny how we have a so called surplus in something we must import because less and less is grown.
JMBTake a peek at this offering #5533406/04/01; 14:15:50

G-E....AUcbwmg @ 15:37 today

Reminds me of a SADE song, "Smooth Operator".
BelgianThe Dollar#5533506/04/01; 14:26:29

Since 1995 the US$ strenghtens.All dollar-holders and earners are happy. There is no inflation (humhum) and the dollar finds this reason enough to grow stronger. And because the dollar being strong...there is no inflation in sight (humhum again). But the other side of money is DEBT.
Good money is repayable debt and bad money is un-repayable debt. Global debt is for more than 85% noted in US$. At least more than 1 Trillion will never ever be paid back.
There is only a market for "good" dollars, covered by repayable debt. These good dollars become scarce and are chased with rising consequences. Alcatel is not swallowing debt loaden Lucent, but Cisco wants Marconi and even Alcatel.
A further rising dollar inevitably leads to a credit crunch for world's oustanding dollar-debt. This increasing Debt-Absorption is undermining the world economy.(cfr. Mexico-crisis). It is the unreasonable rising of the dollar that will cause economic suffocation with short term debt in pole position for default. The leverage-effect of the dollar-mass on macro economic niveau is tremendously underestimated (cfr.Yen/Japan). Water will burn !

In the period 1930-1934, GNP dived with 30%. If something similar should happen today, taxincome will halve within the next 5 years and half of that taxincome will have to serve the IR on debt. This must be avoided at all cost !
We often forget what drama lies ahead.

Randy (@ The Tower)President Bush now holds opportunity to appoint three of the seven members of the Fed Board of Governors#5533606/04/01; 14:38:48

Pending Congressional approval, of course.

(See article for details.)

Randy (@ The Tower)Calm day at the Fed's open markets desk#5533706/04/01; 14:47:09

The market for federal funds was trading nearly on target at 4.06 percent.

None the less, the Fed injected its now standard $2.0 billion daily dose of reserves via 28-day repos (sorta reminds one of the Bank of Japan's antics throughout last year), and smoothed the rough edges with an additional $2.75 billion injection of temporary reserves via overnight RPs.

justamereBearAll and Journeyman#5533806/04/01; 15:02:41

J'Man Hi there. Be back to you in a couple of days.

One interesting way to view the eventual price of gold is to take the number of ounces of gold that the US has, (disregarding the current ownership/custody issue) and the number of dollars in circulation, (be that the number of dollars in M1, the multiplied number in M3, the number of dollar bills floating around the world, most of which have been written off as seniorage, or the total dollars internationally, including the artificial one such as Euro dollars) and simply divide to get the backing in gold each dollar has. Once you have that number, you simply invert to get the price that gold would have to be in order to be fully backed by gold.

While such a method does not consider the artificial derivatives that are dollar based, and this would be significant, $30,000 is not out of the ballpark in some calculations. Personally, considering some of the actions that I would expect from government if the dollar gets into trouble, my calculations tend toward an ounce of gold achieving a purchasing power (for a brief time) of $16,000 of todays dollars. This does not include the tendency of these things to overshoot because of the herd mentality of humanity. The dumb ones always climb on, confirming the greater fool, there is a sucker born every minute, hypothesis. Just look at the levels the stock market has reached.

Long before that, The PTB would have made it illegal to own gold, in the fight to save the treasury.

In haste

Randy (@ The Tower)A seemingly simple question, yet what will it yield?#5533906/04/01; 15:10:28

Those to whom this is directed will surely know who they are (and we will know them because they will be the ones who feel compelled to offer an answer.) And to be sure, I want ET among them to take a crack at this because the question is inspired by his recent post (msg#:55331).

An aside: (((ET, to my mind, nothing you have asked has gone "unaddressed" in our debates, yet you continue to make that claim. Are you an every-other-day visitor to the forum? I believe there is much you must be missing. But that's a matter for the archives to judge. But now, on to the issue at hand.)))

You made recent remarks about something someone said recently about the viability of "sound money", and you expressed ill-favor toward the comments. For this present time, it matters not to me what those comments were, nor does it matter what you thought of them. What I want to know from you, and from as many others as will chime in on this, is the following:

What on earth do you mean by "sound money"?

In other words, how would we know it when we see it? What are its telltale characteristics or modus operandi?

Perhaps we can think of this as a "Starting Point".

justamereBearBlack Blades message#5534006/04/01; 15:14:16

Certaily bears repeating


JourneymanThat's EXACTLY the problem! @auspec 06/01/01; msg#: 55150#553416/4/01; 16:22:58

Hi auspec!

I believe you were answering my gauntlet to "make your case for fiat" when you posted:

"Journeyman and Peter Asher: Dissertation Regarding Defending the Future of Fiat: Fiat can be printed at will."

It took me awhile to grok. (Obscure reference to Robert Heinline's "Stranger in a Strange Land," recently revived by dragonfly, meaning "to understand deeply.")

OK. Here's my return:

"Fiat can be printed at will. - - - That's EXACTLY the problem - - - and once people see the results up close and personal, why fiats ALWAYS fail."


NetkingRandy @ The Tower - Sound Money#553426/4/01; 16:25:50

Sound Money

Sound money is first & foremost an entity that can CONFIDENCE placed in it by ALL who use it. It will be universally accepted by ALL and without hesitation.

Sound Money is something that is WLLINGLY accepted by all of those who use it as a SAFE & FAIR medium of exchange for goods and services they produce or buy, as a store of value and as something to convert from/to their human capital.

Sound money is something that will be PERENNIAL and face the rigors of time, from generation to generation, through the recessions & depressions of the downturns and through to the irrational exurberance of some of the upturns. Sound money was used by our forefathers confidently, & will be used by our grandchildren without question.

Nothing in the world today meets the parameters set by sound money. . . . nothing comes even remotely close. There is nothing around today that will ever be called by the people who have and use money, as sound. There is nothing, oh, hang on a moment, that is except for one thing, . . . gold.

Gold, the strong silent type, respectfully speaks up and says, I AM SOUND MONEY!!! regards NetKing

Journeyman"Sound money" @Randy (@The Tower) #55339#553436/4/01; 16:45:54

Hi Sir Randy!

A quick & dirty answer to a useful way to define sound money:

Something that can't be easily countefeited, either officially or unofficially.

But PARTICULARLY officially.

Or alternatively, something which, when counterfeited, people can easily tell the difference between the counterfeit and the "real mccoy" once they catch on to the scam.


Journeyman"Sound money" II @Randy (@The Tower) #55339#553446/4/01; 16:47:49

P.S. to the previous message: The supply must be naturally limited - - - and the most usual thing that fits the bill is precious metals, particularly gold and silver.


Journeyman"Sound money" @Netking#553456/4/01; 16:52:05

NICE ONE Netking!!


Randy (@ The Tower)Gold and dollar-related comments for justamereBear (msg#55338)#553466/4/01; 16:59:35

Thanks for the exercise to show what price could be acheived were the U.S. gold reserved ever compelled to be delivered against M3.

With small exception, the present "backing" for most of our U.S. money supply is credit. Those who find themselves holding dollars have very little call to expect the dollars to be a claim to anything more substantial than that. What we see happening in this game is that the dollars are kept "good, usable, and in play" because the CREDIT (as a whole) it is built upon is managed in such a manner to prevent a game-ending default. And we all know how this is done. (Chronic supply inflation and dollar depreciation against real goods.)

In consideration of your post (where the dollar value is concerned), it seems like it would be more insightful to divide the money supply into the creditworthiness of the borrowers as a whole...keeping in mind the near-term prospects for the economy. But truly, that is an example of some very difficult mathematics!

Where gold is concerned, it might be insightful to take the commercial and official gold accounts that are "in play" and divide them not into the dollars supply, but rather into the outstanding gold derivative supply. I'm not sure what sorta units would be chosen to label the result, but it would be interesting, no?

Tipping my hand a bit, I mention this because it relates somewhat to the question I posed not long ago about the term "sound money" that has been so casually bandied about.

Thanks for your input.

Randy (@ The Tower)Journeyman and Netking, thanks for your prompt participation#553476/4/01; 17:03:27

I hope you both realize I shall temporarily refrain from engaging in discussion on this matter so as not to taint the additional input that I hope will be forthcoming by many others.
beestingA Short History of SYCEE(INGOTS).#553486/4/01; 17:15:04

From World Coin Book 26th Edition.

While looking in my world coin book I came across this type of "money" used in mainland China. I thought it might be of interest to some. There is a a very long text but this is part of it, from page 327, begin quote:

......and disregarding paper money which tended to be unreliable,,,etc,,,,As a result a private currency consisting of Silver ingots, usually stamped by the firm which made them , came into use. These were the sycee ingots.
It is not known when these ingots first came into use. Examples are known from as far back as the Han dynasty(206BC-220AD), they were used mainly for hoarding wealth. The development of commerce by the Sung dynasty, however, required the use of Silver or Gold to pay for large purchases. By the Mongol period(1280-1368) Silver ingots and paper money had become the dominant currencies. The western explorers who traveled to China during this period(such as Marco Polo) mention both paper money and sycee......The ingots were cast in molds......Sycee have no denominations as they were simply ingots that passed by weight.....The actual weight of any given value of sycee varied considerably due to the fact that the tael was not a single weight but a general term for a wide range of local weight standards....etc....etc...

beesting: Next is a list of 11 denominations headed by:
Weights and Current Market Value of Sycee.(listed in tael, grams & approximate value in 1999 dollars.
It looks like this form of "money" has been and still is in use,,,,,for over 2,200 years....Hhmmmmm!....beesting.

goldfanRandy@The Tower Sound Money#553496/4/01; 17:15:59

Sound Money.

Money which is nobody's debt. That is, it is only and exactly what it appears to be, and is not dependent for it's usefulness in trade by being authorized by any government or by anyone except the current holder, and is not subject to any lien, or to anyone's analysis, or forecast of value, save that of the prospective buyer.
No fiat is sound money, by definition.IMHO.


auspecJourneyman #55341#553506/4/01; 18:07:03

Yes, Journeyman that was my abbreviated attempt to walk the gauntlet you threw down. 1- Fiat can be printed at will. Followed by: 2- Those that make the rules choose NOT the gold.
I figure the less I say the less fodder I provide to you for rebuttal {chuckle}, and actually this is the essence of my position. It's not that my heart is not with you guys, because it surely is. It matters little if a few or a few thousand advertise their houses/cars for sell for shiny. As a major trend or predominate trade {in some form of gold}, sorry, answer is still NEVER. There are two major factors at work here and they interplay in a big way. First, the people are really dumbed down and sinking lower as I type. Second, there is a Power Elite, and it will NEVER be in their interest to have honest money. They see factor number one, the dumb and dumber, and know they can continue most ANY charade, intellectuals be damned. So, it comes down to how one reads 'the times'. I read them as being very late, the PE has great control and will continue so, in spite of any temporaty setbacks. Am not a fiat fan, but they will replace one fiat with another if trouble comes, or replace a fiat with some adulterated imitation of honest money. You know that also, surely. Fiat always fails, YES, but what is it replaced by, and by whom? I love honest weights and scales, but I see the times clearly and hate them.
Globalization, one world currency {fiat or some other abomination}, continued enslavement. What else would they choose? I agree the free markets are most powerful, but those that make the rules are not 'dog meat'. Actually they are the end result of dog meat, but they aint going away. Do you see that the US Constitution has been stripped nekked, and our national sovereignty is nearly gone? You see 'Free Gold' in our future as a predominate means of monetary exchange? Come on, Jman, wake up and smell the burnt coffee. It's not up to the 'intellectuals' at this esteemed site to select the ultimate form of trade, wish that it was. You know I fight them tooth and nail, but I also {like I said} see 'the times'. Heaven will have to wait until we're finished with earth.
That's it, dishonest money is to their advantage and advantage they have. As Dr. Laura says; "Now go do the right thing". Rootin for you Jman!

PS- This is a rather sad post, no?

Carl HKreieren Undergang#553516/4/01; 18:12:24

Does anyone here actually posess a copy of the book Written by Alan Greenspan titled Kreieren Undergang? If you do and would be willing to provide me a copy of it, I would appreciate it if you would contact me via Randy.


CamelFERC#553526/4/01; 18:33:06

Black Blade- Thanks for the detailed response. Evidently I put the link to the article in the wrong place.

How do you explain the descrepancy between your position that the FERC has no power to block construction of a plant with what was expressed in the article as "fact" that it did?

ETRandy#553536/4/01; 18:43:13

Hey Randy - thanks for your thoughts. You write;

"Those to whom this is directed will surely know who they are (and we will know them because they will be the
ones who feel compelled to offer an answer.) And to be sure, I want ET among them to take a crack at this
because the question is inspired by his recent post (msg#:55331).

"An aside: (((ET, to my mind, nothing you have asked has gone "unaddressed" in our debates, yet you continue to
make that claim. Are you an every-other-day visitor to the forum? I believe there is much you must be missing. But
that's a matter for the archives to judge. But now, on to the issue at hand.)))"

Har! All the answers are in the archives. I suppose a paragraph or two refuting what many here seem to feel are holes in your plan is too much trouble, huh?

"You made recent remarks about something someone said recently about the viability of "sound money", and you
expressed ill-favor toward the comments. For this present time, it matters not to me what those comments were,
nor does it matter what you thought of them."

I would say that perfectly describes my recent experience chatting with you.

"What I want to know from you, and from as many others as will chime
in on this, is the following:

"What on earth do you mean by "sound money"?"

The money that a free market will produce.

"In other words, how would we know it when we see it?"

You would find it in your pocket.

"What are its telltale characteristics or modus operandi?"

It is being used in commerce.

"Perhaps we can think of this as a "Starting Point"."

Well, I doubt that. A starting point might be answering some of the questions many of us have posed.

Netking'Commitment of Traders' - Au/Ag - Reports#553546/4/01; 18:54:54

Latest 'Commitment of Traders' reports:
(From Len Kaplan)

Long Speculative/Short Speculative/Long Commercial/Short Commercial
55,117 11,881 31,273 99,716
+1,612 -2,688 +3,406 +6,599

As of last Tuesday, the net speculative position was an amazing 43,000+ contracts. A level that was obviously unsustainable as last week saw one of the sharpest sell-offs in years as all the "black boxes", all with the same trading programs, all tried to sell all at the same time. As quickly as prices rose on the "computer" buying, they fell just as quickly as the commercial side took great advantage. Short commercial interest was almost at 100,000 contracts, an extremely high number and very indicative and a sharp decline was imminent. After all, the "trade" usually makes money from the speculative funds and not the other way around. We went up on air, we came down on air. I remain very bullish on gold from a long-term perspective due to a paradigm shift in the fundamental picture but the events of the last two weeks were just silly in retrospect.

Long Speculative/Short Speculative/Long Commercial/Short Commercial
32,809 17,202 12,182 40,520
+430 -3,850 -524 +3,702

Unlike the gold market, both the short speculators and the short commercials added to positions as prices rose during the reporting period. Silver had nowhere near the run-up of gold and the rally was heavily sold. Silver is still basically ignored and the fundamentals are nowhere near as positive as gold. This remains a trading market, buying dips and selling rallies, although I believe that the downside in prices remains very limited at these historic levels(a 5,000 year inflation adjusted low). However, the upside is certainly not that attractive either.
(We are entering the time when there will be fundamental "parting of the ways" between the paper & physical markets for the same commodity. - Netking)
Sir's Journeyman/Randy - Thanks!

JourneymanA BIG hug @auspec (ah, well, you know)#553556/4/01; 19:03:10

Hi auspec!

Sad post, maybe. But honest, and that in itself these days is unfortunately rare.

As a gambling man, at least according to what's happening right now, your're odds on favorite. BUT before the game started, gold won EVERY play-off. Of course TPTB learned as they went, but the basic equation hasn't really changed.

I saw no opening for a gold come-back, though it makes even more sense today than almost any time in history, particularly because of the large volume of cross-currency trade.

I saw no opening till electronic gold in various forms began to catch on. Now that gold's back in the game, I'm just taking the advice Damon Runyon wrote into "Guys and Dolls, "The race doesn't always go to the swift nor the battle to the strong - - - but that's the way to bet."

I'm just betting on the favorite.

And at this point - - 3rd quarter, fiat 51 gold 3. But gold just took posession.


P.S. We WAY overestimate the powers that be. A few of them are sharp, but most are ciphers following an old and flawed plan. No one knows why the dollar is still strong - - - and the eurocrats are wimps and blinked much too soon on interest rates. This is crisis management, not a "plan going together." The reason is simple: The world is much more complex and chaotic than most manipulators even begin to imagine.

P.P.S. I know you be one of the good guys. And please keep root'n for us Quixotes - - - we need all the moral support we can get!!

ETauspec#553566/4/01; 19:10:50

Journeyman writes -

"P.S. We WAY overestimate the powers that be. A few of them are sharp, but most are ciphers following an old
and flawed plan. No one knows why the dollar is still strong - - - and the eurocrats are wimps and blinked much
too soon on interest rates. This is crisis management, not a "plan going together." The reason is simple: The world
is much more complex and chaotic than most manipulators even begin to imagine.

"P.P.S. I know you be one of the good guys. And please keep root'n for us Quixotes - - - we need all the moral
support we can get!!"

What he said!

These boys is about to go tango uniform! Got gold?

auspecJourneyman#553576/4/01; 19:11:55

Worth A Repeat

"We WAY overestimate the powers that be."

Profound thought Jman! Indeed true!

auspecET#553586/4/01; 19:14:01

Tango uniform??
auspecSpeaking Of The "Good Guys"#553596/4/01; 19:20:39

Generalissimo Midas,

From the Field, Sir,
The men and women are not discouraged, Sir, in spite of the many obstacles overcome and yet to overcome. This rag-tag bunch recently had a contest and nary a one could come up with the proper spelling for the word 'QUIT'. Bless them. Once the word spread that Bourbon Street loomed ahead a mere twelve fortnight , they became irrepressible, if not outright haughty. They can now taste the VICTORY if not yet the fermentation. What a festival we shall have! And to think that all rounds will be paid for by the elitist cabal, sweetness to the soul. Our ranks have been stretched and thinned, yet we believe mightily in our esteemed 'conductors': The Venerable Professor, Zelotes, The Howerful One, The Patriot, Christopher The Mighty, The Turk, Bolser of Yore, and a Cast with unwavering commitment. Our enemies should feel complimented, as well as voided of excrement. Damn them! May they join the buying stampede. May their horses and cattle be their only consolation and 'comfort'. May their fish eggs hatch maggots!
I must tend to the troops now, Sir, they depend on a daily ration of encouragement. Major skirmish on the morrow., anticipation and hopefulness for the cauz. Grateful for the few principled men left on Earth, thanks to you,
From the Field,

Note: We all owe a debt of grattitude and admiration for those risking everything they have, life included I believe, for what they know to be true. GATA, this check is for you!

Horatio(No Subject)#553606/4/01; 19:23:41

Gold Silver Ratio

I wrote here some time ago :the U.S., Mexico and Canada should go on the Silver standard and Europe should go on Gold.Trade between them can occur by maintaining the Gold Silver Ratio at a fixed rate there by preventing devaluations for trade advantage.If exchange rates for individual countries gets set at fixed rates it doesent matter what the Euro conversion is.Individual European countries can jocky for advantage amongst each other by adjusting tax rates.England will probably go on Silver standard unless the Gold Silver Ratio can stay fixed.Thier investments in Dollar denominated assets can only be protected by a fixed ratio.All paper fiat currencys need to be devalued against Gold all at once in order to give all some time to adjust to fixed Ratio.In the mean time U.S. wants a strong Dollar until that day arrives(Bank Holiday) in order to permenatly lock in strong Dollar against Euro and Yen. Europe wants weaker Euro vs Dollar because of U.S. trade surplus with Europe .The Yen is at the mercy of the Dollar, its linked by trade and investment and Debt.Its become a rich cousin who is dependent on the wims of its trade partner who is deeply in debt and who borrowed much of his money and who has been told "you need to lend me some more money or you may not get back what I owe you now"IMHO
ETauspec#553616/4/01; 19:27:42

Hey auspec - this is a family-friendly forum! <g>
CanuckThis is cool#553626/4/01; 19:28:51

Just received the 2001 annual report from Franco-Nevada. On page 7 is 'Outlook for Gold'.

From the report:

"We firmly believe that gold prices will move higher but have no strong view as to when this will happen. Our studies and those of our peers, indicate that 90% of gold projects require at least US$350 per ounce of gold to generate after-tax returns in excess of 10%. (Sounds like cost of production nears $315/oz.)

Gold demand exceeds supply by 1,000 tons annually. The shortfall has been made up by Cental Bank selling and loans to producers who pre-sell their production. These Central Banks sources of supply could possibly go on for another 5 to 8 years (probably less) or until faith in paper currencies erodes. The US trade deficit is unsustainable at US$400 billion annually.... The best predictor of higher commodity prices is a sustained period where prices are well below (prices 'managed'!!) the all-in costs of production. This situation exists in gold industry.

A positive development for mining in the US was the election of President Bush. His cabinet appointees promise to deliver a more even-handed operating enviroment than the Clinton or possible Gore administration."

-End of quote-

A couple of phrases of mine in brackets but the rest is verbatim from the report.

Notice last paragraph; Bush will deliver a more 'even-handed' enviroment. (ie: less MANIPULATED, can you say MANIPULATED). The end of this report is signed by Seymour Schulich, Chairman and Pierre Lassonde, President.

Wow, what a mind-blowing report; I wonder what Barrick's annual report states!!


Black BladeRE: Camel and FERC#553636/4/01; 19:39:25

I do not know the background of the article's author (David Phinney), sources of information, or the political orientation of that particular news organization. However, unless FERC has some underlying authority that extends beyond what was authorized by congress, they can not regulate the construction of power generating facilities with the specific exception of hydroelectric power generation. They can make recommendations and regulate the wholesale pricing of power for interstate sales, however, the regulating bodies of each particular state has jurisdiction over the construction of power generating facilities on state and private lands within the states borders. It is a minor detail spelled out in the 10th amendment to the US Constitution and the separation of powers.

We have in the past heard many politicians make such claims without question. Sen. Babs "Boxcar" Boxer is a prime example. During the latest senate hearing in regard to the energy task force proposals, Sen. Frank Murkowski (R-AK) had to correct her several times, as he did with Sen. Diane FineSwine during an earlier series of hearings. Loretta Lynch, chairman of the California Public Utilities Commission who testified during the latest hearing also was the only dissenting voice among her colleagues when asked about the reasons for the California shortfall in power generation. She blamed FERC for denying requests to place wholesale price caps on electricity in western states (as they should have)and for not building enough power plants (not FERC's responsibility or jurisdiction).

In short, The Commission regulates key interstate aspects of the electric power, natural gas, oil pipeline, and hydroelectric industries. The Commission chooses regulatory approaches that foster competitive markets whenever possible, assures access to reliable service at a reasonable price, and gives full and fair consideration to environmental and community impacts in assessing the public interest of energy projects as per the FERC mission statement. However, there is no federal authority implied that denies the states the right to build power generating facilities within there own boundaries on their own land with the specific exception to hydroelectric power generating facilities. As far as the article's claims are concerned, I couldn't say where they got their information as most of it is not cited or otherwise identified except with regard to the pricing issues and Ms. Lynch's quote. I guess it comes down to know the source and don't believe everything you read. Cheers!

- Black Blade

auspecET & Journeyman#553646/4/01; 19:43:58

ET-- Careful man, I do have 'some' phobias.

Jman-- Nothing wrong with this world a lot more Quixotes wouldn't cure!

Black BladeGreenspan says does not see US inflationary pressures#5536506/04/01; 19:57:47

SINGAPORE, June 4 (Reuters) - U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said on Monday he did not see inflationary pressures in the United States. The response of the U.S. economy may escalate in response to ``abnormal'' energy price moves, Greenspan told delegates at the International Monetary Conference in Singapore via a video link. ``What we this moment is a very extraordinary lack of pricing power in the American economy, which means in effect that the cost increases are not following through into significant pressures on prices but rather on profit margins,'' he said. ``At the moment, we do not see inflationary pressures.'' Greenspan also pointed to some wariness over energy prices. ``A heightened wariness about recent developments reflects a possibility that the responsiveness of American gross domestic product to energy prices may escalate in the event of abnormal (energy) price movements.''

Black Blade: The energy statements are a given, but no inflationary pressures? A bit hard to reconcile these statements. What's wrong with this picture? These statements are somewhat contradictory. Oh yeah, he's referring to the Core-Rate! Well Excuuuussssseeee Meeeeee!

TrurlWho's on first?#5536606/04/01; 20:02:45

Here is a trove of information about the large corporations of the earth, and their size vs. that of governments. Various stats are also given.

Example: The largest 200 coporations make up 27.5% of the economic activity on the earth, with .78% of the population.

If you are searching for the cabal, look to who sits on the boards and owns the stock of these companies.

As has been observed, truely the traditional governments are becoming mere doormen for the big corporations.

turbohawgRandy#5536706/04/01; 20:48:06

Your question asking for a definition of sound money is a good one, but it hits on only half the problem with fiat. Those of us who decry fiat money do so not just because we have a concern with the soundness of the money. We also have a problem with the state's oppression of individual liberty.

Fiat money is the tool used by the politicians to coerce and manipulate. Without the power of the printing press and the ability to continually deficit spend, taxes would have to be raised to prohibitive levels in order for the politicians to raise the money to fund the pet projects they use to reward their contributors, and to fund the welfare state, the war machine, foreign dictators, the drug war and its jackbooted thugs, the IRS, subsidies to capitalism-averse big business, and on and on, as well as the booms that lead to the busts that destroy so many lives. As long as there is fiat, there won't be freedom.

A gold standard or a free money system would effectively shackle the liberty-destroying, endless social and economic engineering attempts of the political class at home and abroad.

Support of central banking and fiat money is support of statism. Plain and simple. Sound money is honest money. And support of honest money is support of freedom.

Unfortunately, I'm preparing for a trip and do not have the time to give this line of thought the attention it deserves. I'll end by copying below some comments by Ron Paul from early last year on yet another example of fiat manipulation at its worst.

Until next time ...


In addition to Greenspan's admission regarding the difficulty of a centrally managed money supply there is a darker problem to which he is far less likely to own up. That is the fact that centrally planned monetary policy is open to political pressures as well. For years Chairman Greenspan had been concerned about the over-expansion of the money supply, dating back at least to his "irrational exuberance" statements. So why did Greenspan not begin the monetary tightening that he now counsels at a much earlier period?

Well, perhaps the best way to answer the question is to consider when the Fed did indeed take the first step on the path of its current policy direction toward raising the Fed funds rate. If you'll recall, it was at the very first Fed meeting after President Clinton's impeachment trial had been wrapped up in the US Senate.

So, as the President faced a stiff challenge that could threaten the very existence of his Presidency, Mr. Greenspan kept the money flowing and the good times rolling, even as he was speaking the rhetoric of increased concern for the economy. Now if anybody is surprised that the future of our US economy would be subjected to political manipulation to assist a troubled President you ought not to be. Indeed it is the history of the Fed to be responsive to certain political needs of, and pressures from, the political power brokers who have influence over the appointment and confirmation of Fed board members, including the Fed chair. Nobody who has seriously considered Fed action in light of election-year politics and troubled political leaders could argue with a straight face that the one does not directly affect the other.

The bottom line is that Greenspan's admission suggests that, even without the negative affects of political considerations, a fiat monetary policy is doomed to fail. When we add to the mix the all-too-human tendency of central planners responding to political pressure, as Greenspan and the fed money making machine clearly did throughout the impeachment process, what we have is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately, Greenspan's admission points anew to the fact that a big mess is coming. But fortunately for those who are listening, it also presents proof-positive that the best way to avoid such calamities in the future is to reset our monetary policy on a firm and sound basis.

NetkingHoratio - "Silver Rumblings in México"#5536806/04/01; 20:51:44

Horatio(55360)I've been watching the "Mexico situation" with interest, it's a real "wild card" from the PM markets point of view, it may be the the most profound thing Mexico has or will do if they adopt a Silver standard. We will watch with intrigue, yes.
Silver Rumblings in México. Senator Fauzi Hamdan Amad, a member PAN, President Vicente Fox's party, and Chairman of the Senate Committee for Treasury, has this to say:"We must analyze a monetary reform very carefully, in a wide forum ... so that we may arrive at conclusions which may allow us to define, once and for all, the sense and thrust of a possible monetary reform. . . . "

. . .The monetary system is so pernicious that only a radical change can save it. We are finally dollarized and our money, in and by itself, lacks intrinsic value and confidence. . .

. . .Many authorised and recognized individuals have spoken out to demand and promote the adoption of a new currency: silver. Hugo Salinas Price, Luis Pazos, Arturo Damm, Steve H Hanke (Translator's note: Mr. Hanke should not be listed in this group, as not supporting its ideas) Octavio Fitch, Francisco Helguera, among many others, ask for a new currency with the backing of the real value of silver.

Senator Diego Fernández de Cevallos, in an interview grated to T.V. Azteca in March, 1999, mentioned among other important things, the wisdom of considering the introduction of silver for Mexico as legal tender currency, an intelligent and brave commentary.

NetkingSound fiat money? #5536906/04/01; 20:56:55

. . . . Just ask Mexico. From the previous post, this is worth repeating;

". . . The monetary system is so pernicious that only a radical change can save it. We are finally dollarized and our money, in and by itself, lacks intrinsic value and confidence. . ."

Black BladeNew market overwhelms U.S. agency#5537006/04/01; 21:22:14


A discussion into personnel incompetence and inexperience at FERC. Explains how FERC dropped the ball on investigative work dealing with price caps and possible price manipulation (something goldbugs know about all too well).

Black Blade: Here is where FERC falls short as is the case with any government bureaucracy. Incompetence may have been more a factor than anything. In a hot energy market, experienced personnel with a background in energy can find more rewarding careers in the private sector while inexperienced and incompetent personnel find work in government offices such as FERC. This could be a source of the belief that FERC had jurisdiction in the power plant construction business.

Black BladeCalifornia responsible for 13 pct of total US output#5537106/04/01; 21:46:42


WASHINGTON, June 4 (Reuters) - A new report by the government shows California makes up about one-eighth of U.S. economic output, a proportion that may be worrying U.S. policymakers as they assess the effects of the state's energy crisis.


In introductory remarks delivered via satellite to a central bankers conference in Singapore on Sunday night, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan noted that the effect of rising electricity prices on the California economy had been ``modest'' to date. ``But no state or area of the United States has experienced the supply-demand imbalance in electric power that currently confronts Californians. This imbalance should only be a problem in the short-run, but it is, nonetheless, a concern for the national economic outlook,'' Greenspan said. And in a May 30 speech in San Antonio, Robert McTeer, the blunt-speaking president of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas and a non-voting member of the Fed's rate-setting Open Market Committee, said he thought a recession in California due to energy prices was ``possible.''

Black Blade: "The effect of rising electricity prices on the California economy had been ``modest'' to date." I suspect that could easily change come summer.

Black BladeEnergy problems worrying exporters#5537206/04/01; 22:18:10

Outages and higher costs may undercut companies in state


"The energy crisis will have an impact. It's a huge concern of ours," said Lon S. Hatamiya, state trade secretary. "It's too early to determine the full impact." Indeed, trade experts say the squeeze won't be felt until the hot summer months when power bills surge and energy demands rise with cranked-up air conditioners, prompting disruptive rolling blackouts. Those power outages are a major concern of the high-tech industry, whose electronic and computer products make up nearly half of the state's exports.

Black Blade: How does this square with Greenspan's statements today? Greenspan is not all that concerned about the energy crisis in California, yet many in California are deeply concerned and they expect a surge in inflation though they don't have the ability to increase prices as they compete against foreign goods. Quite the dilemma - raise prices and economic slow down - stagflation pressures? - "interesting."

Black BladeOil nears $30 a barrel on Iraqi cuts #5537306/04/01; 22:31:39


The price of oil has risen to a four-month high after Iraq cut exports ahead of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (Opec) meeting on Tuesday. The Iraqi government has confirmed it suspended crude exports on Monday in protest at a one-month extension of the existing "oil-for-food" sanctions regime. Oil prices surged as Opec secretary general Ali Rodriguez raised doubts that the cartel's 11 members would raise production to fill the supply gap left by Iraq, which accounts for 5% of the world's crude supply.

But a more conciliatory tone struck by Opec president Chakib Khelil later on Monday eased fears of an oil shortage. "We're going to make sure that demand is met," he said. "I'm not worried."

Black Blade: Oil prices junped on the news of the Iraqi production cut, then prices pulled back later on assurances that production by some OPEC members would be increased if Iraq followed through on the threats. The timing of Iraq's production cuts just ahead of the OPEC meeting is curious to say the least.

PragmaticMy Acceptance#5537406/04/01; 22:37:44

I am honored to have been accepted to this great forum. If in any way, I measure to be less than adequate, I request to be banished forever. Honored knights please be my guides and admonish me when the occasion arises.

At your service,


NetkingTHE ULTIMATE STORM TACTIC - PRECIOUS METALS#5537506/04/01; 22:58:50

James J. Puplava's link is worth a read. It's all good but a scroll down to section IV for the PM's.
10 Compelling Reasons to Own Gold & Silver:

1. Price remains at low levels.
2. Low price is discouraging new investment, thereby reducing supply.
3. Global downturn reduces supply of mine output.
4. Mines shutting down because of low prices and energy costs.
5. Gold bullion stocks continue to decline in price.
6. Demand is increasing worldwide.
7. Dealers and intermediaries leaving market, thereby reducing liquidity
8. Trading and volatility levels are dropping off.
9. Short positions are huge.
10. Returns from alternative investments are declining.
Howdy & welcome Pragmatic!

Peter AsherSound Money!#5537606/04/01; 23:00:31

Been to the mountain today, and now have new insight

Ready? When you drop a gold coin on the table or tap two coins together you HEAR a CLINK. When you drop an FRN on the table or drop one on another you h-e-a-r -----------

So, which one is SOUND money?

Guess I should have mentioned the mountain visit was not like MLK's though, just clearing the brain pipes on the Mt hood summer ski run. (:-) I promise to be serious tomorrow.

BTW interesting cameo event showing liquidity is senior to credentials. A fellow in Huston heard we had good snow conditions, jumped on a plane to Portland and when he went to get his car rental, discovered he had forgotten his drivers license. (It's 70 miles and 6000 vertical feet to Timberline lodge and lift.) being a logical and resourceful fellow (Most living downhill skiers are) he got a-hold of the classified and post-haste purchased, for $375, a very well running old caddy that needed only new brake pucks, and went on his way. He did have his credit cards as it were, but this does point out that liquidity is king.

Now, he could have also forgotten the cards, and cash is a sort of flimsy thing to carry a lot of it around. But if one had a policy of never going to the airport with out a couple of nice weighty Eagles or Sovereigns on their person, one would be very aware of walking out the door without them.

jinx44Black Blade-----your Kalifornicated posts#5537706/04/01; 23:06:17

Has anyone calculated the amounts of energy that each state of the Union produces versus what they use? Maybe the numbers are surprising.
Peter AsherHEY Pragmatic! Welcome to "That other Forum, the esoteric one"#5537806/04/01; 23:08:27

Regarding your concerns just posted concerns you might want to lay doggo on the tattoo. {;-)
Carl HProcurement of Resources#5537906/04/01; 23:20:52

I have been thinking about the recent article by Mike Bolser and I don't think he's correct.

Consider the following line of reasoning. View whatever the gold manipulation is part of as a game with two teams. One team wants the price of gold suppressed and the other does not, or would not if they realized that it was being suppressed.

Now, consider who would be on the team that would NOT want the gold price suppressed. Here is a list that I came up with. It is undoubtedly incomplete:

1. Since gold is one of the most watched standards by which paper currencies are valued, suppression of the price would cause anyone accepting paper currencies as payment to accept too little in payment for their resources, goods or services. Significant members of this category that I can think of include: China and OPEC, for sure. Probably Brazil, Canada and Australia since (I think) they export significant raw materials. Possibly Japan and Korea since they export goods, but they also import a lot of raw materials so I am not certain here. I'm sure the list goes on.

2. Since gold is one of the most watched standards by which inflation is measured, suppression of the price would also mask inflation. This would cause creditors to demand too low of an interest rate on their money. I will, however, concede that if group 1 were sufficiently duped, then perhaps the purchasing power erosion would be slower and the lower interest rates would be justified. Several members of this group would be the same as group 1. Namely, China, some members of OPEC, and Japan.

3. Some gold mining companies. (Some other gold mining companies would see it as an opportunity to acquire resources of failing companies.) I will not dwell on this point because I suspect that in the scope of what I am proposing here, they world wide gold mining industry is insignificant.

Now for the team that would want gold prices suppressed. Again, this list is undoubtedly incomplete:

1. Again, since gold is one of the most watched standards by which paper currencies are valued, suppression would benefit anyone purchasing resources, goods, or services with paper currencies. Members of this team would include the US, and Western Europe.

2. Again, since gold is one of the best measures of inflation, anyone borrowing money would issuing debt would want to see the price of gold suppressed so that they could pay a lower interest rate. So what countries are issuing debt – well the US is at the top of that list. I am not real familiar with the external debt situation of Western European nations. Perhaps someone who knows can comment here.

3. Some gold mining companies who could purchased troubled companies at bargain prices.

What this looks like to me is an operation to trade the resource exporting nations a minimal amount of paper for their resources in order to maintain the standard of living in the US and Western Europe.

Suppose that this is true for a moment. Consider in that light, the creation of the Euro. When or if the dollar cracks, where would the money run. I would be that a lot of it would run to the Euro. Guess who controls the Euro – Western Europe. Looks like it would be out of the frying pan and into the fire for the resource exporting nations.

Again supposing that what I am speculating is true for a moment. Consider the massive interest rate derivatives books of Chase/Morgan and Citibank. I consider the debt market to be basically like any other maket (eg gold). If gold can be manipulated by derivatives and futures, then I will argue that the debt market could also be manipulated using derivatives and futures. It would take a much larger quantity of derivatives, but a notional value of ~20 trillion dollars worth might be enough to make a dent. So I suspect that the derivatives books are a symptom rather than the root of all this.

Again, supposing that what I am speculating is true for a moment. If commodity prices can be manipulated by derivatives and futures, the that could also explain the low prices of many commodities. See the article at Le Metropole Café: 6/2 Ed Steer - The "FAT TAIL" of Long-Term Capital Management.

If such an environment were created where the dollar and other paper currencies were over valued, how would the government best take advantage of it. My guess is that the would want to monetize existing assests so the people could use the money created to purchase more assets from the resource exporting nations. Sounds like a good reason to promote cash-out refis via government sponsored entities like Fannie and Freddie. It would also be a good time to promote a stock market bubble to put cash into the hands of the citizens to spend.

I would also like to point out that currencies, contracts, and gold are intrinsically fairly useless. You can't use any of them to directly improve your standard of living. You must exchange them for something else eg. oil, timber, aluminum, silver, etc. that can be used to improve your life. So the name of the game is to get as much stuff for the paper before the other side figures out what is going on.

So, in summary, I think what we are looking at is a coordinated effort by the US and Western Europe to procure at, minimal expense, the resources of the resource exporting nations.

I hope this will provoke some thoughts?

JMBPRAGMATIC#5538006/04/01; 23:31:07

Welcome Sir.

Would you be THE Pragmatic who has predicted that the Dollar Index will go to 140?...if so, that's a pretty bold statement.

psst, you gotta cube?

Tannehill3 guesses the first 2 don't count---#5538106/04/01; 23:51:34

It is well known that President Truman kept a sign on his desk that read "the buck stops here".

Who might keep a sign on their desk that reads "the bucks start here"? And keep chanting, inflation is not a problem, inflation is not a problem----

beesting @#55348
thanks for 'A Short History of SYCEE(INGOTS).'

Doesn't sound to me like the Chinese would want to be selling us their silver. Makes those un-confirmed internet stories about the Chinese selling millions of ounces seem just a little far fetched.

That's all from Tannehill

Black BladeHOW WE GOT INTO THE CALIFORNIA ENERGY CRISIS#5538206/05/01; 00:15:38

California's electricity sector collapse: 1) Insufficient generating capacity; 2) insufficient natural gas capacity; 3) a disconnect between changes in environmental regulation and changes in the electricity sector; and 4) market power abuses.

Black Blade: An interesting article where a lack of generating capacity and lack of natural gas supply figure prominently. Interesting article that illustrates that unlike the oil shocks of the past, this energy crisis is pervasive and long term. This energy crisis could easily absorb the rest of the West and eventually drag on the whole US economy. I don't entirely agree with all the points made in the article, however, they are relatively minor. Good article overall and gives a "Big Picture" analysis.

Peter AsherTannehill (06/04/01; 23:51:34MT - msg#: 55381)#5538306/05/01; 00:34:57

I was gonna say Greenspan but then i started thinking it's a trick question and the answer is 'The game warden'
(It's not tomorrow yet in Oregon)

TannehillSir Asher#5538406/05/01; 01:17:33

Greenspan was the person I had in mind.


SteveHOT#553856/5/01; 05:08:49

If a person doesn't see themselves in a mirror, what does that mean?

If a person's finger doesn't work on a computer touch pad, does it mean the same thing?

Just curious.

Gold up a buck, as we speak.

BelgianAbout money...#553866/5/01; 05:46:22

Good money is as sound as its interest rate it bears. A debtor is as good as his creditor is believing.
Individuals are not setting the interest rate on their good money. This is done by the collectivity. They do create the rosy picture of job-security and growth. They cover all what might look ugly and frightening. Defaults and mistakes are permitted and covered up as soon as possible. But we know this story and just want to know "when" the music stops. Personally, I refuse to keep my ample savings of paper, in the form of printed leaflets, anymore. Unfortunately there are not many other fish, swimming the way I do prefer. They simply don't question the soundness of their money. They are enslaved and consumption addicted.
They swim happily in the ever expanding paper water.

The music stops, when by accident, mortal poison, polludes the paper ocean and reduces the amount of oxygen or increases the concentration of toxics. Lots of possible reasons to make that accident happen, have already been listed. My preferred guess is the following : Reverse of genuine global growth and expansion. Say contraction.
When it becomes very difficult to generate rewarding real profits proportionately to the input. Am afraid that this will be triggered by a dramatic change in dollar parity.
The dominance of the dollar in the macro-economic picture is dangerously destructive. A sharp increase or decrease as well. A few freezing nigths can destroy masses of perfect blossoms and bear no fruits. The strengthening of the dollar is the result of fear for the unknown effects of the Euro alternative. A war could have the same effect and the POO is a looming danger for continued dollar-run. In case that none of the above events will cause shocking events, than a progressive increase of the US$ will have the same suffocating effect but on a longer time frame. Increasing imbalance is Toxic anyway. The point of culmination is when one big entity refuses to play the game any further. Be it Europ, Japan, China or the US itself. A third possibility is stabilization of the US$. But that will result in decreasing profitability for all dollar involveds. And with contraction as a result due to lack of incentive profit generation. In any case, the real "depreciation" effects of the past will manifest themselves in a very brutal manner.
Whatever scenario will come true...GOLD is with its poor valuation of today and its future fundamentals, the one and only waterproof defense I can come up with.

Orville GoldenbacherItronics-Gold/Silver and Nutes#553876/5/01; 06:14:36

Itronics Silver and Gold Sales Increase 286 Percent; GOLD'n GRO Fertilizer Sales Up 137 Percent in April and May

Go GATA, Go Gold, Go Itronics


Pragmatic@JMB @Peter Asher#553886/5/01; 07:26:58

@JMB Yes, I am he. $bull and EURO basher.

@Peter Asher: Didn't know my tatto was famous:)

Thanks for your greetings to USAGold and I will strieve to be a constructive poster.

Extracted from Houston article by Professor (math) Nering from Arizona State University.

Assume we have a 100 year old supply (optimistic?) of crude. At present rate of consumption how long would it last with a 5% increase each year?

Answer: 36 years

O.k., let's assume we get incrediably lucky and discover "elephants" all over the place and now have a 1,000 year supply of crude. How long would that last at 5%?

answer: 79 years

Point is that there is no suply side tactic that will work. A solution for future generations (even our generation) must come from another approach.

answer: 79 years.

Old YellerProductivity,wage costs#553896/5/01; 07:33:00

They both look horrible,but it's the same old same old.The new aura continues to enthrall the viewers.Even though it is a recognized fact the massive credit expansion over the past six years has contributed to the productivity 'miracle',I have never seen mainstream mention of this factor.
JourneymanCaveat for energy bears @Pragmatic, ALL#553906/5/01; 08:34:57

Hi Pragmatic, & Welcome!!

Energy shortages are, given current geology alone without even resorting to alternativs such as fuel cells, solar, etc., completely a function of price.

At somewhere north of $40 dollars a barrel, tar sands become a viable source for oil, and a little later in price appreciation, so does oil shale.

There are several centuries of energy available from these sources - - - and then there is also at least 200 years of coal (which if we are technologically perverse, can be converted to both gas and oil equivalents).

It's a safe prediction that long before we run out of what is now considered "conventional" energy sources, solar, "cold fusion," migma cells, or some other more reasonable energy sources will be developed.

Till then, there won't be a true shortage of energy that can't be handled directly by market forces, just that as always when markets work, we will have to change - - - because prices will undoubtedly rise.


USAGOLDToday's Commentary: Will Europe Become an Unexpected Source of Gold Demand?#553916/5/01; 09:06:11

6/4/01 ( .
.Fears among European savers that they
will be cheated in the upcoming January,
2002 euro currency exchange could
inaugurate an unexpected source of
demand for gold for the rest of 2001. The
European Commission says 64% of the
public believes they will be cheated in the
exchange. Given the persistent weakness
of the euro, the potential for an energy
driven inflation push, the lack of a real
rate of return from competing dollar
based deposits and sluggish equities
markets, gold could regain its role as a
primary portfolio hedge in Europe. . . . .
. . .

To read the rest of today's report,
we inite you to join us at our
private access COMMENTARY &
REVIEW page. A simple,
one-time registration is required. Please go to the link above.

EconoclastConfiscation#553926/5/01; 09:06:46

While reading the abundance of great posts on this forum, I see the mention of confiscation should the price rise.

That is an issue I have pondered since I touched my first ounce. I am not a lawyer, and know better than to put anything past the grabber mentality in D.C., but I am coming to the decision that I don't believe confiscation will happen this time around.

1. (and most importantly IMO) In 1933, gold was official money. Now, gold is officialy a commodity and not money anymore. Since gold is no longer part of the nation's money supply, I find it difficult to understand how confiscation could be implemented. Could the gov't make soybeans or coffee illegal (and not be just laughed at)?
2. Because gold is no longer money, and has even been forced out of the investment picture by the paper pushers, the amount dispersed between the citizens of the U.S. is most likely not very much (sorry, I don't have an estimate). And the gold that is now out, is kept privately and quietly by people who I believe would not generally give it up easily. Any effort to "round up" private gold would probably cost more than it yielded.
3. If the price did rise substantially, the whole world would become aware of the allegations in the Howe lawsuit and the huge banking system short position. If they tried to confiscate it, it would obviously be to bail out the banks, who got too greedy. If that were done, I believe it could wake up the masses. They would be risking Joe Public's anger, as the People would realize that they have been lied to. Gold (as we know) is an emotional subject and they best be careful in their handling of it.
4. I believe (a la Martin Armstrong) that bankers are whorting it for their employers/firms, but buying physical personally as they know the truth. They are not so stupid as to advocate laws that will confiscate wealth from themselves.

From these and other thoughts I have had floating around in my mind, I believe that markets may have to be shut down, but they are going to have to let the few goldbugs who knew what was going on partake in the profits.

Have a nice day.

EconoclastOops...sorry#553936/5/01; 09:12:36

In #4, it should be SHORTING, not whorting.
And while I'm here, I'll throw in a #5---
Globalism and our new "smaller" world makes it much easier to move assets to other, less hostile jurisdictions

GalearisSomething is changing in lease rate patterns....#553946/5/01; 09:13:33

Like the calm before the storm I note that it has been six days since there has been a meaningful change in lease rates. If one looks at the Kitco graph this looks quite anomalous. Please disregard the 6 mo. and 1 year rates as bogus - they are the same across the board for the other pms too.

Something is brewing when short metal exposure is not being added on to entities. Perhaps the Greenspan statement to bullion banks is accurate.


IronHeadAuspec - A Tribute To Your and Many Others Perseverance, Here At Castle Keep#553956/5/01; 09:23:59

Sir Auspec - Thought of you when reading this, and of the mention of "dreams" here recently. (hope the format thingy works ok?)

by Thelen Paulk

I had a dream the other night, I did not understand.
There was a figure walking through the mist with a flintlock in his hand.
His clothes were torn and tattered, as he stood there by my bed.
He took off his three cornered hat, and speaking low, he said:
"We fought a revolution to secure our liberty, and we wrote
the constitution as a shield from tyranny.
For our future generations, this legacy we gave,
in this the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
The freedom we secured for you, we hoped you'd always keep.
But tyrants labored endlessly while your parents were asleep.
Your freedom gone, your courage lost, you're no more than a slave
in this land of the free and the home of the brave.
You buy "permits" to travel, and "permits" to own a gun,
"permits" to start a business, and "permits" to build a home.
You live on land you believe to be your own,
but you pay a yearly rent, just to keep a home.
Your children attend a school that doesn't educate,
and your moral values can't be taught, according to the state.
You read about news in a very biased press,
and you pay a tax you do not owe to please the IRS.
Your money is no longer made of SILVER AND GOLD;
you have traded your wealth for paper, so your life can be controlled.
You are a just a number, there's no family honor that you hold.
You've given government control, to those who do you harm,
as they padlock your businesses and steal the family farm.
Can you regain the freedom for which we fought and died?
Or don't you have the courage, or the faith to stand with pride?
Just what would you fight to save?
Aren't you sick of being just a government slave?
Sons of the Republic, arise and take a stand!
Defend our Constitution, the Supreme law of the land.
Preserve our great republic,and each God given right!
And pray to God to keep the torch of freedom burning bright."
As I awoke he vanished in a mist from whence he came.
His words were true, we are not free, and we have ourselves to blame.
For even now as tyrants trample our God given rights,
we only stand and tremble, too afraid to stand and fight.
If he stood by your bedside in a dream while you were asleep,
and asked you what had happened to the rights he died to keep,
What would be your answer if he called out from the grave?
"Is This Still The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave?"

MoutainGold"New" US Economic Paradigm Died Today...#553966/5/01; 09:54:44

Productivity was the killer!

USDollar is a bubble ready to burst. Do not think it has discounted "stagflation". When the "hot" money all wakes at the same time, the USDollar will crash.

This will be a major Gold and Silver bull market catalyst.
We are close! Did the USDollar decline start today? Maybe!

Got Swiss Franc and Canadian Dollar long positions...putting my money where my mouth is.

Stops in and going Golfing again today...enjoy fruits of labor.

Good Luck All Later....

Phoenix RisingMy two beads worth...#553976/5/01; 09:54:55

Ironhead: Thank you for sharing your post with us. Are you not familiar with George Washington's vision? He had a vision during his dark days in Valley Forge where an angelic being appeared that foresaw the destiny of the Union and the 3 perils that our country would experience. They included the American Revolution, the Civil War and the last and final war (WWIII).

It is a fairly well documented narrative and has been published in several different newspapers over the past 100 years or so. If you would like I will track it down and post it.

SHIFTYPhoenix Rising#553986/5/01; 10:26:07

If you can find it .

I would like to read about George Washington's vision.


Black BladeRE: Journeyman (6/5/01; 08:34:57MT - msg#: 55390)#553996/5/01; 10:38:39

One important point about the possible extraction of "non-conventional" oil is that it must yield a net energy gain. In other words, it must require less energy for extraction and refining than the net energy gain for the end user. This has been a major problem for Biomass fuels for example. A higher price for hydrocarbons would make Tar Sands more attractive. At current prices only about 3% of Canada's Athabasca Tar Sands are economically viable (for a large number of reasons), however, the quantity of viable Tar Sand derived oil rapidly increases as the price of oil rises. At about $40.00/bbl, the Shale Oil market begins to look like a possibility once again. Under the right circumstances (high oil price, improved extraction and refining technology, etc.), Canada could possibly become the next "Saudi" of oil production.

- Black Blade

JourneymanThanx @Black Blade#554006/5/01; 10:44:44

Hi Black Blade!!

Thanks for the info on tar sands, shale oil & the "New Saudi!" And the perspective. As usual, you're my guru on current energy issues.


TannehillEconoclast @#55393 Confiscation#554016/5/01; 10:56:37

I suspect you are right about the idea of there is so little gold among the american sheeple that they would not need to confiscate it, again. It is the rest of the world that they are having trouble with. But then again their vaults are bulging with the stuff. They have more than they know what to do with. So they stand ready to lease it out should the price rise. Why confiscate it, just lease more out, and more and more and more, who is going to call them on it? Why, they will just shoot'em. Get back in line over there, we will dig up your gold when we are good and ready. What are you going to do with it, eat it? We have just in time inventory, you have to wait and it is not your turn. What are you going to say to that?

" US Sees No Iraq Disruption of Oil Markets----

...The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said major oil producers had publicly pledged "to help ensure stability in the markets" and said producers had reserves or sufficient capacity to make good on their pledges."

'condition of anonymity'
Doesn't this amount too, We stand ready to lease oil, should the price rise? Didn't slick willie try this by leasing crude from the U.S. stockpile, and if I remember correctly it didn't work then either. What if Saddam announced "Iraq will not ship any more oil, and will continue buying physical gold." oh boy, Houston we have a problem.

But confiscation, now there is a dark subject. Confiscation---what did slick willie just confiscate from the american sheeple? They are already doing it Sir Econoclast. Land, hundreds of thousands of acres in the West. Grabbed right under our noses.... What are people with money buying. For example Ted Turner--bought a big ranch in Montana, Michael Dell bought not one but two ranches in Texas. These guys don't need to raise cows. Think about land and self reliance... Land, that's the new confiscation medium. It has value and people still want it. Drive the american farmer into the dirt so to speak,... Tax the people off the land. Take from them the land their forefathers fought and died for. They didn't fight and die for gold, it was land. But of course make exceptions for the big guys. When was the biggest land grab in U.S. history, why during the depression of course. Land, they can't print any more of that, might just get me some. You bet your sweet bibey, they have a depression planned, grab more land. They care not for your gold, they lust for control.

Buy physical put a geologist to work.

That's all from Tannehill.

Black BladeFirst Quarter Reported Oil And Natural Gas Production Trends Still Waiting On The Big Lag#554026/5/01; 11:16:58

This is a good article. Free one-time registration for access. This article covers what we have discussed here before, however, it is nice to have a detail study for reference. This is from the Simmons and Company International group (led by Matt Simmons). Take special note of the drill rig activity numbers. More aggressive drilling activity and imperceptible gains in production. The point is that use of NG and oil is increasing so inventories are static, and the drill targets are smaller or more difficult to exploit as there are fewer "Giants" and virtually no "Super-Giants" left to exploit. For those who follow the "Hubbert Peak theory" on oil production (also applies to NG), this is not news. The increase in drilling activity is about to end. There simply are not any more available drill rigs and this will hit the markets very hard in the coming months. Especially so for NG-fired power generation facilities. The end result is higher utility rates are a given as there is no other recourse. I'm sure we all know what that means for the economy going forward. Hard asset portfolio insurance like gold looks better all the time.
Phoenix RisingGeneral Washington's Vision#554036/5/01; 11:30:24

Originally published by Wesley Bradshaw,
taken from a reprint of the National Tribune, Vol. 4, No. 12, Dec 1880,
National Tribune Inc., P.O. Box 1803, Washington, DC 20013-1803
Voice (202) 829-3225, FAX (202) 829-5657

The last time I ever saw Anthony Sherman was on the fourth of July, 1859, in Independence Square. He was then ninety-nine years old, and becoming very feeble But though so old, his dimming eyes rekindled as he gazed upon Independence Hall, which he came to visit once more.

"Let us go into the hall," he said. "I want to tell you of an incident of Washington's life, one which no one alive knows of except myself; and, if you live you will before long, see it verified.

"From the opening of the Revolution we experienced all phases of fortune, now good and now ill, one time victorious and another conquered. The darkest period we had, I think, was when Washington after several reverses, retreated to Valley Forge, where he resolved to pass the winter of 1777. Ah! I have often seen the tears coursing down our dear commander's care-worn cheeks, as he would be conversing with a confidential officer about the condition of his poor soldiers. You have doubtless heard the story of Washington's going into the thicket to pray. Well, it was not only true, but he used often to pray in secret for aid and comfort from God, the interposition of whose Divine Providence brought us safely through the darkest days of tribulation.

"One day, I remember it well, the chilly winds whistled through the leafless trees, though the sky was cloudless and the sun shone brightly, he re-mined in his quarters nearly all the afternoon alone. When he came out I noticed that his face was a shade paler than usual, and there seemed to be something on his mind of more than ordinary importance. Return i n g just after dusk, he dispatched an orderly to the quarters of the officer I mention who was presently in attendance. After a preliminary conversation of about half an hour, Washington, gazing upon his companion with that strange look of dignity which he alone could command, said to the latter:

"''I do not know whether it is owing to the anxiety of my mind, or what, but this afternoon as I was sitting at this table engaged in preparing a dispatch, something seemed to disturb me. looking up, I beheld standing opposite me a singularly beautiful female. So astonished was I, for I had given strict orders not to be disturbed that it was some moments before I found language to inquire into the cause of her presence. A second, a tlurd, and even a fourth time did I repeat my question, but received no answer from my mysterious visitor except a slight raising of her eyes. By this time I felt strange sensations spreading through me. I would have risen but the riveted gaze of the being before me rendered volition impossible. I assayed once more to address her, but my tongue had become useless. Even thought itself had become paralyzed. A new influence, mysterious, potent, irresistable, took p05session of me. All I could do was to gaze steadily, vacantly at my unknown visitant. Gradually the surrounding atmosphere seemed as though becoming filled with sensations, and luminous. Everything about me seemed to rarify, the mysterious visitor herself becoming more airy and yet more distinct to my sight than before. I now began to feel as one dying, or rather to experience the sensations which I have sometimes imagined accompany dissolution. I did not think, I did not reason, I did not move; all were alike impossible. I was only conscious of gazing fixedly, vacantly at my companion.

"Presently I heard a voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn," while at the same time my visitor extended her arm eastwardly. I now beheld a heavy white vapor at some distance rising fold upon fold. This gradually dissipated, and I looked upon a strange scene. Before me lay spread out in one vast plain all the countries of the world, Europe, Asia, Africa and America. I saw rolling and tossing between Europe and America the bil-tows of the Atlantic, and between Asia and America lay the Pacific. "Son of the Republic," said the same mysterious voice as before, "look and learn." At that moment I beheld a dark, shadowy being, like an angel, standing, or rather floating in mid-air, between Europe and America, dipping water out of the ocean in the hollow of each hand, he sprin-kled some upon America with his right hand, while with his left hand he cast some on Europe. Immediately a cloud raised from these countries, and joined in mid-ocean. For a while it remained stationary, and then moved slowly westward, until it enveloped America in its murky folds. Sharp flashes of lightning gleamed through it at intervals, and I heard the smothered groans and cries of the American people. A second time the angel dipped water from the ocean, and sprinkled it out as before. The dark cloud was then drawn back to the ocean, in whose heaving billows it sank from view. A thfrd time I heard the mysterious voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn," I cast my eyes upon America and beheld villages and towns and cities springing up one after another until the whole land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was dotted with them. Again, I heard the mysterious voice say, "Son of the Republic, the end of the century cometh, look and learn."

"'At this the dark shadowy angel turned his face southward, and from Africa I saw an illomened spectre approach our land. It flitted slowly over every town and city of the latter. The inhabitants presently set themselves in battle array against each other. As I continued looking I saw a bright angel, on whose brow rested a crown of light, on which was traced the word "Union," bearing the American flag which he placed between the divided nation, and said, "Remember ye are brethren." Instantly, the inhabitants, casting from them thefr weapons became friends once more, and united around the National Standard.

"'And again I heard the mysterious voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn." At this the dark, shadowy angel placed a trumpet to his mouth, and blew three distinct blasts; and taking water from the ocean, he sprinkled it upon Europe, Asia and Africa. Then my eyes beheld a fearful scene: from each of these countries arose thick, black clouds that were soon joined into one. And throughout this mass there gleamed a dark red light by which I saw hordes of armed men, who, moving with the cloud, marched by land and sailed by sea to America, which country was enveloped in the volume of cloud. And I dimly saw these vast armies devastate the whole country and burn the villages, towns and cities that I beheld springing up. As my ears listened to the thundering of the cannon, clashing of swords, and the shouts and cries of millions in mortal combat, I heard again the mysterious voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn." When the voice had ceased, the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long and fearful blast.

"'Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shone the word Union, and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who I perceived were well-nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed the battle. Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict, I heard the mysterious voice saying, "Son of the Republic, look and learn." As the voice ceased, the shadowy angel for the last time dipped water from the ocean and sprinkled it upon America. Instantly the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious.

"'Then once more I beheld the villages, towns and cities springing up where I had seen them before, while the bright angel, planting the azure standard he had brought in the midst of them, cried with a loud voice: "While the stars remain, and the heavens send down dew upon the earth, so long shall the Union last." And taking from his brow the crown on which blazoned the word "Union," he placed it upon the Standard while the people, kneeling down, said, "Amen."

" 'The scene instantly began to fade and dissolve, and I at last saw nothing but the rising, curling vapor I at first beheld. This also disappearing, I found myself once more gazing upon the mysterious visitor, who, in the same voice I had heard before, said, "Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted: Three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful is the third (The comment on his word 'third' is: "The help against the THIRD peril comes in the shape of Divine Assistance. Apparently the Second Advent.-Ed. P. N." J. J. S.) passing which the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and Union." With these words the vision vanished, and I started from my seat and felt that I had seen a vision wherein had been shown to me the birth, progress, and destiny of the United States.'

"Such, my friends," concluded the venerable narrator, "were the words I heard from Washington's own lips, and America will do well to profit by them."


Black BladeTONIGHT - PBS Shines Light on Energy Crisis#554046/5/01; 11:32:56


LOS ANGELES- As California's energy crisis casts a widening shadow, PBS' "Frontline" helps illuminate the issue with a high-wattage documentary. "Blackout" is both a comprehensive report and a warning: California's power deregulation woes represent a national problem not destined for a quick or painless solution. If you're a consumer frustrated by price hikes or concerned about what might happen in your state, "Blackout" should be considered required viewing. Major players, ranging from power company chiefs to consumer advocates to Vice President Dick Cheney, make their case on energy policy. "Blackout" also touches on alleged machinations involving the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission that could affect how much, if at all, the federal government will weigh in on power prices, and renews questions about corporate influence on the Bush administration.

What ultimately emerges is a classic debate, framed in 2001 political realities, over whether an unfettered market is invariably the best approach or whether capitalism sometimes must bend to regulation.

Black Blade: Check local listings. Since this is on PBS, I suspect that there will be a more "liberal extremist" bent on the piece. We will have to see if it is a fair and balanced report. However, I will check it out if I remember. "Blackout" coming to a town near you - maybe the one your in.

IronHeadPhoenix Rising #554056/5/01; 11:38:56

Sir Phoenix Rising - Yes, it has been quite a while since I saw the founding father's vision. I would be very pleased to re-aquaint myself with the prophecy of GW.

Your recent vision also was elemental in my posting the tribute, for I too am of close blood ties with the Sami people of Lapland, whom are thought to have the capacity to see beyond 'simple' reality. My visions have unfortunately, not been of gold and silver, as your recent epiphany was.

I wonder if many forum members caught TG's post once upon a time, in reference to Another's having *seen* our future?

If I recall, along the same thread, Sir Cavan Man was given a direct answer by TG to his query of where we would be, as - "hell everyone". Most probably overlooked this as a simple omission of the "o" in the sentence......Hmmmmmm.

Hope no one asks me to find those quotes! {smile/frown}

Really enjoy your feelings that you've shared here!!

Belgian@ Carl H # 55379#554066/5/01; 11:43:50


You : US + Europ to procure at minimal expense the resources of the resources exporting countries.
Me (FWIW) : Extreme low prices for resources have some other reasons. Dollar versus resource-currencies is one of them. There is a very strong tendens to minimalize the valuation of all manifactured goods. And this from agricultural products over minerals and electronics.
This in sharp contrast with the general over-valuation of services. Think it is a social fenomina. More and more "unnecessary" services are involved in the cycle from raw material to consumer product. And each step is taxed.
VAT is mostly a taxe on anything but added value. And due to dollar-dominance, raw materials, need to be plundered to generate some profit for a happy few. All other participants in the cycle, claim the 100% profit range.
All hot air sellers claim to add maximum value and consider themselves as VIP and incontournable (indispensable ?)
Take the agriculture sector as most obvious to analyse what I'm trying to explain. And in the case of soon as hedging becomes impossible with CB stopping to lend gold at 2%: Kaboom !
The resource plundering is not done with the purpose to harm. But to gain political influence over all the people involved in strategic and important necesseties.
Kind of quasi nationalisation of strategic products. Food/energy/transport/etc...
All other employment is easier to taxe and regulate. And this political program is not only directed to resource producing countries but in every country by its own political machine.

Black BladePhelps Dodge Fights Change in Power Bill#554076/5/01; 11:50:08


Utility spokeswoman Liz Stewart said the company is not recovering the costs of service to Phelps Dodge. She said the plan would not affect residential customers or the utility's business customers. The plan, she said, is a "rate design change" for industrial customers. The utility, Phelps Dodge and a PRC official refused to speculate about how much electrical costs would go up, but the mining company was concerned enough to seek a public hearing. Phelps Dodge spokesman Richard Peterson said high energy costs were a factor in recent layoffs at Grant County mines.

Black Blade: Look for other US miners, including Gold Miners Barrick and Newmont to face such "rate design changes." Gold production is down quarter over quarter, so this could also take more gold off the table.

uponroofThe argument for coins......#554086/5/01; 11:58:34

Some interesting facts from 'The American Advisor' today

Greetings precious metals experts! Hope all are well and staying optimistic. I have been very busy at work lately and reduced to occassional lurking, but thought I'd stop in and point out some interesting facts about precious metal coins....

BUT FIRST, after seeing that my good friend 'Pragmatic' has come aboard I must take time to welcome him. WELCOME SIR!

I have 'pulled many legs' over the course of internet chatting. All in good natured fun of course, but not always appreciated. Pragmatic, like an old friend, is secure enough in himself to take a good joke.....and dishes out quite well also! I look forward to the Texas/Colorado rivalry again....nevermind the fact that Pennsylvania has both easily beat.

Back to coins.....

We all know that the gold industry market cap is dwarfed by the money in Wall St. It is this ridiculous comparison which leads to an increased heart rate whenever considering the results of any kind of move from Wall st into PM's.

Well the same can be said about coins.

"A study has recently concluded that the total value of ALL certified U.S. rare coins is less than 10 billion dollars."

That's a very tiny amount of money for an investment market.......not to mention that there is only a small percentage of that amount for sale at any one time, as the vast majority of those coins are owned by collectors or investors and are NOT FOR SALE.

POINT: It won't take much money to drive coin prices WAY, WAY UP!

EXAMPLE: Last month (MAY) 21 billion dollars in new money flowed into the Mutual Fund market.

HALF OF ONE MONTHS INVESTMENTS INTO MUTUAL FUNDS COULD BUY EVERY RARE COIN IN EXISTENCE!!! (including all million dollar coins like that nickel that just sold for 1.8 mil)

The gummint is aggressively creating new coin investors every day. Over 100 million (almost half the population) now collect the state quarters. Thursday the Buffalo Silver Dollar goes on the market at $35+-. It will be interesting to see what kind of response the public gives such a coin which is certainly in the same cost class as 100 yr old B.U. Morgans. At what point will the desire for authentic, old, precious metal, rare coins begin in earnest?

My Goodness Gracie!......If those 100 million folks ever evolve and mature to develop a taste for truly rare coins!
It is entirely possible that coins may outperform all other precious metals investments!.....Even in Texas.

also, speaking of outperforming.....

"Dr Raymond Laumber professor of economics at Penn State conducted a study for 'The Joint Committee on Taxation of the U.S. House and Senate' to analyize returns, over a 20 year period, of a diversified portfolio of stocks and bonds
that also included rare coins and gold. The study found that rare coins had a much higher rate of return than gold bullion, were a better inflation hedge than gold bullion, and were a better hedge than gold bullion against falling prices in stocks and bonds."

In my PM portfolio I hold 40% stocks, 40% physical (coins and bullion), and 20% paper (options). While the temptation for 'leveraged' paper gains (stocks and options) are great, the risk is great also.

I find myself thinking about rare coins more and more.

Have a great day!

Randy (@ The Tower)Belgian (msg#: 55386)#554096/5/01; 11:59:21

Though I rarely manage to pause long enough to say "Nice post!" to the many posts that deserve it day in and day out, this is an occasion where I must stop and smell the roses, so to speak.

"Nice post!"

Black BladeChevron threatens to cut gas supply in state#5541006/05/01; 12:05:11


Chevron Corp. will reduce gasoline production at its two California refineries unless they are exempted from rolling blackouts, the company's chief executive warned Gov. Gray Davis. In a move that could raise California gas prices, Chevron's Richmond and El Segundo plants will scale back output and rely solely on the power provided by their own electrical generators, Chevron Chairman David O'Reilly said in a letter Friday obtained by The Chronicle.

Black Blade: Maybe the people in California should rely on their public Mass Transit Systems. I hear that BART is running - oops, they run on electricity, never mind.

Black BladeRaft of Data Shows Weak U.S. Economy#5541106/05/01; 12:17:55


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A raft of data released on Tuesday underscored the weakness of the U.S. economy with productivity falling, labor costs rising at a troubling pace and signs of slowing activity in both the manufacturing and service sectors. The reports were the latest in a series that have shown the severity of the recent deceleration in the world's richest economy, something the Federal Reserve has tried to counter with deep interest rate cuts.

Black Blade: All this bad news, and the stock market indices are soaring. The reason? "The bad news is out." Bring on more "Bad News!" Any more "Bad News" and then I can retire wealthy. Hmmm…

Cavan ManIronHead#5541206/05/01; 12:27:30

I asked the poster how he felt about his prognostications. Also, I find curious the reference to Asia, Europe and Africa; kind of like "Shanghai, Dubai and South Africa"--I think that's a quote anyway.
NetkingTannehill & Econoclast - Confiscation#5541306/05/01; 12:45:21

Tannehill(55401) & Econoclast(55393)

IMO, I believe that this time around it is more likely to happen with Ag rather than Au.

It would not happen just yet (as in this year) but is a possibility as a "strategic initiative for the national interest".

We are truly though going to be in for interesting days, maybe we could call it the ride our lives. One of the most interesting generations to be around in & to see what we will see.

Randy (@ The Tower)A fine coincidence! (regarding uponroof's msg#55408 about the rare coin market)#554146/5/01; 13:23:39

I've just completed a page on that very same matter. For the first time in nearly a decade Centennial Precious Metals is again recommending that clients consider exploration of some of the benefits to be found in the rare coin market, with special emphasis on a selection of collectible U.S. gold and silver coins. Michael tells me that a special advisory is being printed and will soon be mailed to all of Centennial's clientele with additional details.

As MK explains, while the rare coin market can be much more volatile than the bullion market, these coins offer a double-play profit potential: First, as the gold price rises; Second, as the premium rises due to the limited supply of collectible gold coins offering privacy advantages.

MK also reminds us that thse coins should not be viewed as a proxy for the portfolio insurance aspect found in bullion and low-premium pre-33 European gold coins. However, for those who would like to diversify a portion of their bullion holdings to speculate on capital gains, a convenient trade program is available. Call Centennial for full details and consultation on this matter. Again, they've been at this for three decades and are a fountain of wisdom and knowledge on all things golden.

(see link above...nice coin graphics, too, if you visit the additional links therein)

Christian(No Subject)#554156/5/01; 14:38:28


Our trade deficits in the balance of goods and services is not putting pressure on the dollar or on our exchange rate. As long as it is matched by an inflow of cheap commodities like commodity gold that can and is repriced for credit creation gold at a much higher price we can finance that trade imbalance. The only way a nation (USA) that has the responsibility of managing the world reserve currency with no discrimination to buy its way in the world can continue to operate this paper scam is to sell down physical assets (gold). Similarly, a surplus in the trade balance of goods and services is not an indication of a strong exchange position. Just look at Japan. What is is the net outflow of gold. The most stupitiest thing a country like South Africa can do is export its money (gold). We here in the USA already have gold confiscation in place. We are just to stupid to figure it out. We are not allowed to sell in a free market. We still have the right to buy commodity gold and sell commodity gold, but we can not sell it as credit creation gold. A few men have bestowed on themselves that priviledge and they own the Class A shares of the FED and they own BIS. They understand that there is two requirements of a modern international gold standard- 1-ending the monetization of government debt and- 2-ending the monetization of the reserve currency or a basket of currencies like the Euro represents. Such reform can only happen by sharply increasing the net reserves of the world as a whole (it is happening) and sharply lower interest rates to stimulate investment in physical assets (not wall street) and increase employment in order to facilitate the repayment of excisting debt-without engendering inflation or deflation. Absent of 1 and 2 above, it is clear that while some improvements can be made in some countries, there is no lasting economic stability anywhere-as long as the international monetary system is based on reserve currency. The Euro is designed to compete with the dollar to buy its way in the world by simply printing Euro's. They operate the same paper scam like we do by selling down physical assets. Gold market manipulation is about the U.S.$. Gold market manipulation is about the Euro$. The gold carry trade is about repricing gold for the select few at the expense of many. Indirect way of gold confiscation. Write to your representatives in Washington and ask them- "At What Price Does Credit Creation Gold Change Hands between central banks"? So far I have three answeres out of 42. Answers are $270, $276, $112,000. Which is it? I even wrote to Robert Rubin. His reply is- none of my business. I want a hunting season on him.
Camel$40 oil#554166/5/01; 15:09:35

Looks like everyone here agrees that $40 oil is just around the corner. As we say in Texas when one of those blue northers rolls in, "There's nothing to stop the wind but the barbed wire fences." Wonder how long it will be before OPEC raises its price band?
uponroofChristian#554176/5/01; 15:21:05

Either you are getting better at distilling your gold credit creation theme, which I have been reading for over a year, or I am finally 'getting it'. Your posts, when the thoughts are lined up in sequential, understandable, terms are able to cut to the marrow of global financial truth. It's practically a revelation type experience. Savant like. Your thoughts are challenging but very powerful and stimulating when understood. Thanks.

btw-what ever happened after the ransacking of your house? Are you still on a several hundred acre farm? Is hemp still your crop? How's life? Are they still busting your balls?

AELIslamic World Currency#554186/5/01; 15:51:02

From: "Boudewijn Wegerif" < This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. >
Subject: MONEY MATTERS: Islamic "World Currency for free people"
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:34:44 +0200


Islamic "World Currency for Free People"

Boudewijn Wegerif -- May 2001

Dear list members,

I hope you find the hear-on following article interesting. A
slightly abridged version has been translated into Swedish for the
next issue of PENGAR (Money), the quarterly journal of monetary
reform, of which I am consulting editor. PENGAR is sponsored by
the members' owned, interest-free bank JAK, which you may be
interested to learn more about, through the English section at

Please feel free to post the article onto others -- note though
that I would appreciate knowing where the article has been placed
and the lists to which it has been posted.

In friendship,

Boudewijn Wegerif
Monetary Studies Programme
Folkhogskola Vardingeby
150 21 Molnbo, Sweden.



"A World Currency for Free People"

Boudewijn Wegerif -- May 2001

"A time is certainly coming over mankind in which there will be
nothing left that will be of use save a dinar and a dirham" --
Ascribed to the prophet Mohammed, as reported by Abu Bakr ibn Abi
Maryam and quoted at

From the beginning of Islam until 1924, with the break-up of the
Near Eastern Ottoman Empire and fall of the Khalifate, the basic
currency of the Muslims was the gold dinar and silver dirham.
Islam was then made subject to western banking practice, with its
different paper currencies. However, now Muslims around the world
are being encouraged to convert their paper currencies into new
100 percent Islamic gold dinars and silver dirhams. They are also
being encouraged to join the 100 percent gold backed e-dinar
service, which is linked to e-gold.

The new Islamic dinar and dirham represent the renewal of coins
that go back to the beginning of Islam. The weights of the coins
(4.3 and 3 grams) and their role in the economy was set by the
Shari'a -- i.e. the Islamic Law.

A small Islamic sect called Murabitun is spearheading the movement
to bring the bimetallic dinar and dirham back into play as the
"world currency for all free people".

At one may read how in the 12th century the
Murabitun were the most feared warriors of a flourishing Islamic
Civilisation. They swept North into Southern Spain from West
Africa in a devastating wave of conquest and destruction of the
feeble and corrupt petty kingdoms of the day. An economically just
and socially glorious period of Islam is said to have been
engendered in the wake of the fighting.

Now Murabitun is alight again, say the authors of this history.

From his home in Scotland, the Murabitun leader, Shaykh Abdalqadir
as-Sufi, travels the world with the basic Murabitun message that
Allah and His Messenger have declared war on usury. The renewed
Islamic order will come about "not through fighting in the streets
against the world's guns" but through taking effective advantage
of "the continuing collapse of the paper-money-edifice now sinking
under mathematical lunacy and inflation."

Perhaps the most telling point in favour of the new gold and
silver currency is that it meets the Islamic zakat requirement by
which Muslims must give at least 2/12 percent of their income to
the poor in tangible merchandise or "honest money of actual
substance", therefore not paper money.

"If the millions of Muslims who now make their payment of zakat in
paper money would do it in newly minted dinars and dirhams, they
will put in circulation millions of gold and silver coins into the
mainstream of daily commercial activities of our communities," is
written at "That single act will become the
most important political act of the century, opening the path
towards the establishment our own halal (usury) free currency
breaking away from the usurious financial system".


The political leader of Murabitun, Umar Ibrahim Vadillo, has a
vision of a world without banks. In a 3,000-word essay on the
Islamic Banking Fallacy (at
Athens/Delphi/6588/bfallacy.html) he dismisses the Islamic banking
system as "profoundly contrary to Islam".

Three reasons are given why the Islamic bank is "a totally
crypto-usurious institution", which "must be rejected and fought".

1. The use of credit to artificially expand the monetary resources
is emphatically forbidden in the Shari'a (Islamic Law).

2. The Islamic principle of co-ownership, enshrined in the
Shari'a, is usurped by the nature of the limited liability
ownership of the banks and the enterprises they support.

3. In terms of the Islamic Law forbidding usury, a loan cannot be
made of a commodity whose value is changeable, yet in banking
everywhere fluctuation in value is generated and this effects the
individual transactions the bank makes.

Umar Ibrahim Vadillo concludes: "There is no way of establishing
an equitable market without going outside of the modem monetary
and financial systems."

So long as the money supply is entrusted to a bank-supported
government one must be ready to live with an artificial currency,
which can be expanded and contracted at will, always according to
the policies and economical suitability of the moment.

The Islamic bimetallic currency, on the other hand, is a natural
currency that does not need rules or regulation, laws or official


According to a Murabitun "White Paper" document at white.html, a genuinely Islamic currency
"only needs the individual freedom to possess and use gold and
silver coins with an implicit elimination of all taxes imposed on
their use. There is no doubt that the freedom to possess gold does
not only mean the freedom to buy it and sell it for industrial
purposes but also the freedom to use it as a medium of exchange."

Then, as commodities amongst other commodities, the value of gold
and silver will naturally remains stable in relation to basic
consumable goods. It seems that the value attached to gold and
silver exchanges in a genuinely free market have a remarkable
consistency over time.

Thus, according to a statement at, "a chicken
at the time of the Prophet, salla'llahu alaihi wa sallam, cost one
dirham; today, 1,400 years later, a chicken costs approximately
one dirham. In 1,400 years inflation is zero. Could we say the
same about the dollar or any other paper currency in the last 25

The portability and anonymity of gold are also cited in the
Murabitun literature as important, but their bottom line argument
in favour of gold is that it is an asset that is no-one else's
liability. "All forms of paper assets -- bonds, shares, and even
bank deposits -- are promises to repay money borrowed. Their value
is dependent upon the investor's belief that the promise will be
fulfilled. A piece of gold is independent of the financial system,
and its worth is underwritten by 5,000 years of human experience."


With the adoption of a bimetallic gold and silver currency, Umar
Ibrahim Vadillo anticipates the re-emergence of the once
flourishing world of Islamic trading, which "does not involve any
form of interest-debt, control of products by speculative future
and stock markets, or the mediation of any bank".

The trading renewal will be founded on the restoration of two of
Islam's most representative but lost institutions, "the
marketplace, which will replace supermarkets, and, the caravans,
which will replace monopolistic distribution." There is also a
call for a return to the guilds of "independent, intelligent work
teams, in which the relationship master/apprentice will replace

By tradition, the Islamic Market was once placed alongside the
Mosque as a "space freely accessible to everybody, with no
divisions (such as shops) and where no taxes, levies or rents
could be paid". And, as in a Mosque, whoever got to a market place
first had a right to it until he got up and went back to his house
or finished selling.

The same flexibility/fluidity, for a free flow of trade, is
associated with caravans. "The caravan brought more than
merchandise from one market to another, they brought the whole
city that they represented."


There is no clear record of how effective Murabitun has been in
introducing the gold dinar and linked trading model to Islam. In
1998 the gold market analyst Jay Taylor wrote (in an article at taylor112598.html) that the
Islamic dinar was being privately used in more than 22 countries
and being minted in four countries, including South Africa.

According to the Murabitum's own undated "White Paper", "Dinars
and dirhams have already been minted under the supervision and
standards of the World Islamic Trading Organisation and are in
circulation in Spain, Germany and South Africa, soon to be
followed by Switzerland, England and other Muslim countries".

And at, 14 countries
are listed as having Murabitum groups with their own websites,
namely South Africa, North America, Malaysia, Germany, Nigeria,
England, Turkey, Spain, Australia, France, Mexico, Switzerland,
Bermuda and Denmark.

Although no figures are given, I suspect that the majority of the
4,000 or so new account holders at e-gold every week may be
Muslims using the e-dinar service, which operates through e-gold.
In 1999 there was a major promotion for the gold dinar in Dubai
and at the e-gold website it is stated that more than half the
gold backing for the e-gold payments service is in 400-ounce Dubai
gold bars.

In the promotion of the e-dinar (at and en/index_4.html) the point is well made that the
greatest obstacle to gold and silver coinage, namely divisibility,
is overcome by this system of payments: "Since ancient Babylonian
times, paying for a pizza with gold coins has been impractical.
All physical coins come in fixed sizes. There is a limit as to how
small a coin can be. e-dinar, in contrast, is computerized;
precise to 0.000001 oz (troy)".

There is irony in the thought that a return to traditional Islamic
trading may be dependent on the Internet invention of "infidels"
-- unbelievers. Perhaps too much irony.

Tannehilluponroof @msg#: 55408 Rare coins#554196/5/01; 16:04:54

I also have felt that quality was important, not just quantity.
Of course timing is nearly everything.

That's all from Tannehill

Randy (@ The Tower)Fed makes atypically large addition to permanent banking reserves#554206/5/01; 16:06:23

You recall that most of the billion-dollar sized open market operations reported here are of a temporary nature, whereas the less frequent permanent additions (coupon passes) through outright purchases in open market operations are smaller... measured in hundreds of millions (dollars).

Not many days ago there was an outright purchace by the Fed that uncharacteristically exceeded one billion dollars. At the time, the market rate in federal funds wasn't even under pressure.

Today, there was yet another large outright purchase (of US Treasury bills), adding $2.066 billion to permanent reserves of the nation's banking system.

Fed funds were trading at the FOMC tarket rate of four percent.

Go figure. Then diversify into gold.

Christianuponproof#554216/5/01; 16:08:18

The ransacking of my house was paid for by Chase+J.P.Morgan. I am still owner of the 967 acres but it will soon be on the market. All the summer people who own a slug of camps along a pond come up here to grow hemp on my and All goes to Bush Sr., and he sells it on the commodities market in Chicago as Soybeans. Life is tough and I am thinning my woodland for no pay whatsoever. The difference is the wood on the land will increase $1.60 an acre unthinned and $100.00 an acre per year thinned. It is hard to cash flow when pay day is every 40 years. On average I get my foot stuck in a five gallon camoflouged pail every other day. Thinning recovers volume and value that would otherwise be lost due to overcrowding and retarding growth. Thinning removes dead, dying and deccadent trees, and only the vigorous, healthy remain. A woodlot that has been opened up and roaded is an enioyable place to walk or picnic. Few people enjoy forcing their way through a tangle of brush where trees grow so close that it is a struggle to move. Some trees are so close together that they grow together. Now that is close. I have about 200 acres done. Today I did about an acre. Our Yesterdays are cancelled CHECKS! Our Tomorrows are promissory notes! Our Todays are Cash! THIN YOUR WOODLOT! MY LAND IS MY GOLD and my savings account. I am not busting my balls either as you so elequently put it.....
Randy (@ The Tower)Final reminder or request for people to voice their thoughts on this#554226/5/01; 16:20:17

As asked yesterday:

What EXACTLY is meant when people refer to "sound money"?

In other words, how would we know it if we had it? What are its telltale characteristics or system of opertion?

Can anyone else (in addition to those yesterday) provide a simple yet well considered answer to this seemingly simple question?

Peter AsherQCaafG#554236/5/01; 16:32:10

Since I promised to be serious today;

Sound money would be "Any form of legal tender whose purchasing power stays constant in relation to the price of goods and services."

AEL's post below addresses this concept as does my "Free Gold" # 55076 and my and other follow-ups.

BTW have you seen beesting (06/01/01; 18:36:27MT - msg#: 55161)
ATTENTION Sir Randy of the Golden Tower. -- ?

WW Oracle@Christian: If you are really pinched...#554246/5/01; 16:32:36

Maybe, once the current lumber rally has had a good run, you can sell short long-dated lumber futures. Your woodland is your security!
Peter Asher@ AEL#554256/5/01; 16:42:03

Very valuable item you just put up. Only skim read so far. Seems to be the same thing I've been working up in my Free-Gold posts. Not to be confused with oxymoronic ‘Regulated Free Gold‘.

The thrust here is to get gold out of what someone recently said "Going from the black hole of a mine in the ground and intto the black hole of Fort Knox" and instead into the hands of the people. The idea is that demand for Gold's (and silver's) use as ‘money in circulation, would first empty the vaults of the CB's and then start on the mine shafts.

megatron'sound money'#554266/5/01; 16:42:12

'Sound money' is whatever two traders deem it to be. Type of 'money' is irrelevant. Intelligence/knowledge level of one or the other is irrelevant. In a non-forced exchange THEY will decide. Traders have preferred many different kinds and 'qualities' of 'money' over time. Today is no different and change in 'sound money' perception will occur.
JCTexPeter Asher (6/5/01; 16:42:03MT - msg#: 55425)#5542706/05/01; 17:43:10

I cannot help but wonder if the Alan's vaults and Ft.Knox aren't already empty. But of course, our government would never lie to us.

It always bothers me when someone is not willing to let the auditors count the beans. I have to keep things simple so that I can understand them; so, I'll ask a simple question: WHY?

auspecIronHead #55395 - Phoenix Rising#5542806/05/01; 17:49:05

IronHead- Thanks for putting up Paulk's Tribute! It's a powerful one.

"Just what would you fight to save"? This is worthy of some reflection, no? Haven't recently seen this as a topic on Jerry Springer, maybe next episode?
Best to you, Sir Ironhead.

Phoenix Rising- Could you point me to the post # of your "epiphany"? I remember it being discussed, but don't remember reading it. Thank you.

Pragmatic@uponroof#554296/5/01; 17:56:31

Uponroof, you rascal you. Thanks for the welcome and allow me the time to post a true "pragmatic" reply to your great greeting! ;)
Cavan ManPeter Asher#554306/5/01; 18:00:47

Yes, that does sound enticing but too bad persecution of Christians and Jews is culturally institutionalized.

While I'm here Peter, I must ask you to explain why you are busting balls on this "free gold" theme of yours. One cannot live their life in a vacuum. One cannot create an idealized global monetary context in a vacuum either. Even Thomas More knew Utopia wasn't but fooled everyone nonetheless. Wishful thinking is highly encouraged around my house but, let's be realistic.

The poster to whom your cynical references are directed has come closer to the mark in interpreting current events of a political and monetary nature than anyone else on the boards. We can all sit around and dream about a monetary utopia until the cows come home if you define utopia by a pure metallic measurement but it ain't going to happen. Two years here and I am a Libertarian also. I like free markets (no TM) as much as the next guy. Hey, you know what, I don't wear a seatbelt and don't make my kids wear bicycle helmets as they ride the sidewalks of our neighborhood at 7 mph. No sir.

Look, put away the ridicule; it is unbecoming of you. The insights, perspectives and analyses of this chap are priceless; they cannot be had at the finest american university. Whether or not they bear good fruit, whether or not the Euro is a Charmin look alike, time will tell. In the meantime, I for one enjoy all the banter here including yours but have no reason to chip away at the foundation of what is an excellent venue for discussion.

Black BladeFBI sharpshooter may be tried#554316/5/01; 18:05:35


The case is also seen as a test of whether federal agents are immune from state prosecution. The federal government declined to prosecute the agent, Lon Horiuchi, but Tuesday's ruling clears the way for Idaho prosecutors to pursue charges in the death of Vicki Weaver, 42. "When federal officers violate the Constitution, either through malice or excessive zeal, they can be held accountable for violating the state's criminal laws," Judge Alex Kozinski wrote in the 6-5 decision.

Black Blade: Strange decision as federal law enforcement and politicians are generally above the same laws that are used to keep the rest of us in line. This Randy Weaver case just doesn't seem to die. Where's Steve H. on this one?

JCTexRandy (@ The Tower) (6/5/01; 16:20:17MT - msg#: 55422)#554326/5/01; 18:06:19

Sound money? I have no earthly idea.

I've never seen one of those, and as long as we allow paper to price physical, these gold coins aren't very sound, either. I just thought that I had quit playing "play-like" 50 years ago.

It's 2001 and we are still playing "play like" gold is worth paper. The absurd is defining reality, the nuts are running the asylum, and the stock-touters are running our economy.

I used to think that the dumbing down of America started with Dr. Spock, but I was wrong: it started with Keynes.

Black BladeRandy, MK, All - Pre-33 US Gold Coin#554336/5/01; 18:17:43

I know that MK and the Castle guards keep watch over pre-33 European gold, occasionally S. American gold, occasionally specialty coin jewelry items and bullion. However, I don't recall if the Castle sells pre-33 US gold coin. Does MK let loose of pre-33 US gold coin as well? I have and still do occasionally collect such coins when finances permit (though not lately). My preference has been gold Liberties and territorial gold coin. The reason I ask is that I don't recall any listing from USA Gold. Cheers!

- Black Blade

VanRipSound Money#554346/5/01; 18:39:25

Sound money is stable currency, as noted below. I believe this agrees with Peter Asher's earlier post. The link is one of several listed in AEL's interesting post 55418.

<<<Gold or silver are the most stable currency the world has ever seen.

From the beginning of Islam until today, the value of the Islamic bimetallic currency has remained surprinsingly stable in relation to basic consumable goods:

A chicken at the time of the Prophet, sallallahu alaihi wa
sallam, cost one dirham; today, 1,400 years later, a chicken costs approximately one dirham.

In 1,400 years inflation is zero.>>>

R PowellSound money#5543506/05/01; 19:05:04

Sound money is a reliable means of transporting or exchanging credit. It should be a convenient, acceptable means to receive payment due and/or make payment for goods/services received. Sound money remains as such, as long as it is unquestioningly acceptable and retains its value over a reasonable length of time if held as savings. Both money and sound currency might be thought of more as a means of credit transfer than as a great store of value or wealth. Money is utilitarian and necessary in any society which exhibits any specialization of labor. Money is as mortal as are its makers and users. Immortal stores of wealth and value such as precious metals are forms of sound money, excepting that these forms are immune to those value altering forces that inhabit our world.

R PowellHello and welcome #5543606/05/01; 19:20:00

to uponroof, Moutaingold and Pragmatic. I left word with the tower watch to keep a sharp eye open for Maddog and Richard 640 although I believe Richard has visited here in the past.
A word to all who work on the roof. Be careful not to drop anything on those working below, like the guy finishing concrete in the cellar. Thanks

R PowellLease rates#5543706/05/01; 19:32:52

As Galearis (55394) mentioned earlier, the gold forward and libor numbers that determine lease rates have changed just enough so that we don't think of them as a double post of the previous day. Reminds me of a cat stalking prey, absolutely still except for the slightest twitch of the very tip of her tail. Is this an omen??

R PowellRepost from Kitco#5543806/05/01; 19:51:13

"Just too damn quiet on the gold front"

USAGOLDBlack Blade and All. . . . .Collectible Coins#5543906/05/01; 19:59:18

I want to first of all thank you, Black Blade, for the fine work you do here on an almost daily basis to keep this table informed. I know I speak for many when I say we really appreciate it.

On the US $20 gold pieces, brilliant uncirculated etc., we have always offered them, but in recent years clients have had a primary interest in staying as close to the gold price as possible while still remaining in the pre-1933 category, thus we have sold literallly thousands of the European item -- actually thousands monthly. So, yes, I would be happy to talk to you about your interest, as a matter of fact, I've been hoping to meet you for quite some time. At about the time the book was published and prior, we placed thousands of $20 gold pieces in uncirculated condition. When the premiums skyrocketed, we traded them for pre-1933 European and gained substantial ounces in the process. We did this very quietly and many benefited. At the moment, I'm still hoping that the premium will drop further on those the $20 in low grade uncirculated, so we are just watching and waiting. There will come a time for them, but not yet. The European remain the better buy.

Had the distinct pleasure of meeting Turbohawg today. What a treat. I have to say that he as intriguing and likable an individual in person as he is here at the Forum. We are indeed privileged to have the posters we have here -- people like Turbo. I know this forum has enriched my life, and I know many of you feel the same way.

On the subject of collectible coins, which I have not recommended for what seems to be a very long time, it is a confluence of factors which brings along the recommendation, and I should caution that the recommendation is confined to a very narrow area of the market for now -- $20 gold pieces ( common date Liberties and St.Gaudens -- Mint State 63 and higher) and silver dollars ( common date Morgan and Peace dollars -- Mint State 64 and higher). I believe that these will enjoy the widest market now and in the future and therefore provide the best liquidity and upside potential. I also believe that other firms will market these items now and in the future adding to their appeal and the potential.

Here briefly are a few of the reasons why this recommendation is now on the table:

1. Low prices -- This is a primary appeal. When you consider the prices that these items sold for a decade ago and what they are selling for now, you have the basis for some upside worth considering.

2. Stock market doldrums -- The coin market is usually appreciated by the same people who play the stock market. Since the gas appears to be out of the stock market baloon, or at least questionable, I believe investors will be looking around for hard asset alternatives. Coins fit the bill -- probably the most liquid and trackable collectible, and I include art in that grouping.

3. Money supply -- With the money supply continuing to grow at an astronomical rate, that growing pool of money will be chasing a reasonably static level of goods, including collectible coins. They, in my opinion, will be counted a natural beneficiary in the future and I think buying at these current low prices could very well be rewarding in the future just on the inflationary push alone. (Not to speak of additional profits accrued through growing investor demand.)

4. Cyles -- This is related to number "3" above. All markets cycle, collectible coins have been at cycle lows and are due for a rebound. James Turk published an interesting graph in his most recent letter which shows the percentage growth in the money supply. For most of the 1990s, we have seen monetary growth declining on a percentage basis. Over the past few years the cycle has changed to strong monetary growth, once again, on a percentage basis. To make a long story short, the Fed is re-inflating the economy and collectible coins are usually a beneficiary of such inflation. If you believe that inflation is on the horizon, then collectible coins might make sense. If you believe a deflation is on the horizon, you would probably be best off staying in gold and cash. Our recommendation is strictly for the individual who believes inflation is on the horizon, and would like to park some funds in an investment with a higher risk/reward ratio than gold. (Collectible coins usually outperform gold in an inflationary environment in multiples.) All in all, from a cyclical point of view, I believe that coins are way overdue. I should also point out that we have had two additional bull markets in coins after the big run-up in the 1970s -- one that ended in the mid -1980s and another that ended in the early 1990s. So we could have another run-up in coin prices whether or not the gold price rallies. ( I happen to believe that both will rally together the next time around.)

5. Privacy -- Collectible coins have always enjoyed special treatment from the government even though they remain a contra-financial market alternative. There is no reason to believe that will change in the future.

Having said all this, this investment is not for everyone and as pointed out earlier in Randy's post, these are not an alternative to owing hard gold stored nearby, and for some perhaps nothing more than an interesting diversion. We believe it essential that every investor have a gold hedge in their portfolio for reasons discussed at length at this forum. We see collectible coins as a worth complement, or addendum, to those holdings.

We invite you to call for details on our recommendations and talk to either Marie Ballard, George Cooper or myself. We will be happy to answer your questions and try to determine if this sort of thing will work for you.

Trading makes a great deal of sense for those who would like to add more upside potential to your portfolio. We do not in any way suggest that you trade all your holdings for collectible coins, but a reasonable diversification might make some sense at this juncture.

We look forward to discussing the details with you.

Regards, MK

CanuckAn unhedged gold company says it all#5544006/05/01; 20:10:57

"Outlook for Gold"

"We firmly believe that gold prices will move higher but have no strong view as to when this will happen. Our studies and those of our peers, indicate that 90% of gold projects require at least US$350 per ounce of gold to generate after-tax returns in excess of 10%.

Gold demand exceeds supply by 1,000 tons annually. The shortfall has been made up by Cental Bank selling and loans to producers who pre-sell their production. These Central Banks sources of supply could possibly go on for another 5 to 8 years or until faith in paper currencies erodes. The US trade deficit is unsustainable at US$400 billion annually.... The best predictor of higher commodity prices is a sustained period where prices are well below the all-in costs of production. This situation exists in gold industry.

A positive development for mining in the US was the election of President Bush. His cabinet appointees promise to deliver a more even-handed operating enviroment than the Clinton or possible Gore administration."

-End quote-

Pragmatic@uponroof#5544106/05/01; 20:25:36

Uponroof, have you ever considered the "jackboot" side of human psychology? I have often pondered the phenomenon since a boy, many years ago. You are a Jew and without warning the jackboots arrive in the middle of the night, you and your family disappear without a trace, not to be heard of again. This happens over and over again as your kind is methodically reduced in number at the jackboot's convenience. But the interim survivors? Not a word.. they do not dare whisper in fear it will draw attention to them and they will be the next to experience the knock in the middle of the night. Humans are such sheep that these methods are so easy.
ChristianInput needed#5544206/05/01; 20:31:05

Mail message

I paid $125.00 an acre for 967 acres of cut over woodland with good road access to most of it. If thinned the growth of the value of the wood will increase every year $100.00 instead of the $1.60 an acre of the unthinned acerage. I have 200 acres done and to do the other 767 acres will take me about 10 years. The last 2.5 years it cost me $14,600 to live and operation cost of thinning. My equipment is a chainsaw, circular blade brush cutter, pruner, old pickup and a ladder. How do I finance my 10 years of future thinning without going to the bank, log the place off or gample on some paper trade. And please don't tell me to buy some gold stocks. After the thinnings have had a chance to rot for three years a brush mower cut go through most of what I thinned. Yellow birch which has 435,000 seeds to a pound at a cost of $30.00 and worked into the ground with a rake where the brush mower mowed will grow for seedlings. Blue Douglas Fir which has 67,000 seeds to the pound also grows good. I could grow billions or even trillions of seedlings but I can't do both at the same time. -- Ginsing would work but it takes 6 years to harvest. High Bush Blueberry grows if only there was a way to grow them from seed. Is there such a thing as being able to buy blueberry seeds. So far I have been doing it by root division or by propogation by cuttings. Any one have any better ideas? Any ideas on a no interest loan for 40 years? I could sell zillions of blueberry plants if I just had them.

aunuggetsMore Thoughts on Rare Coins#5544306/05/01; 20:37:35

Having been "deeply involved" in the rare coin markets during the 1970s through much of the 80s and 90s, I can't help but feel a certain apprension toward mentions of jumping back into such an esoteric field with thoughts toward "investment". Without any intentions of being a "spoiler", I'm sure there are those of you who know all too well where this is going.

To mention the possibilities of rare coins, TRULY RARE COINS holding out any possibilities of being a "Double Profit Play" is to ignore the very basis and fabric of how the rare coin markets work. A truly rare coin is first going to sell (trade) at multiples of it's gold or silver content. To consider such an "investment" on the basis of present or potential bullion value, absent a very considerable increase in bullion prices, would be mere folly at best. There were, however, days when "common" gold and silver coins were regularly sold off to the local pawn shops and refineries for their precious metals content. Few (very few) truly "rare" coins ever did or ever will fall into such a category. So considering true rare coins as any kind of "play" on the basis of precious metal content in relation to collector value (and cost) could well lead those taking such unwise advice down the fast lane to huge $ losses. Of course one exception is the purchase and trading use of "near-bullion" common U.S. gold pieces, the $20 Liberties & St. Gaudens, higher circulated grade $10 Liberties, etc. bought for the "premium play" to trade back into bullion as the premiums rise.

Another important aspect of the rare coin market is the fact that the vast majority of "slabbed" or "certified" rare coins simply ARE NOT RARE. Rather, they are readily available examples of their particular type. A good example in point is the Morgan Silver Dollar in certified MS (Mint State) 65 grades or "commercial uncirculated" common gold pieces as "type" examples. Of course there are those truly "rare" dates in higher grades of preservation, but again, the vast majority of these coins in slabbed or certified grades are relatively very common.

Ask yourself before "investing" in rare coins…… What exactly is it I am investing in here ? Rare coins are nothing more than collectables, with the end user being THE COLLECTOR, not the investor or speculator looking to turn such items for the simple profit play involved. If you're serious about rare coins as an investment, the best thing you can do first is to become a collector….. to learn all you can about the different designs and series, the relative rarities involved between design types and individual dates….. to gain the knowledge FIRST, and the coins later. Being as it is, a very esoteric field of collectables, rare coins can be, have been, and will be both a manipulated market and a very good opportunity for the less than ethical, slabs or no slabs. Grading standards vary from dealer to dealer, certification service to certification service, and even from year to year or decade to decade throughout the entire hobby. Entering such an "investment" field without the necessary knowledge or with a "trust me" attitude from any supplier without having some basic knowledge of your own is a sucker's bet at best.

Do "rare coins" ever appreciate in value ? Surely the truly RARE ones often do, but contrary to what you may read in the financial investment studies through the years, you have to remember that those studies are usually based on a very specific grouping of individual coins that may have been chosen before, during, or after the fact. Those studies are often tainted in favor of the desired results just as if you were to make a list of the 10 or 20 best performing stocks over the past year to show what your "portfolio" did over that period. As a group, certified or slabbed coins have performed far less impressively than many will have you believe. Picking and choosing individual truly rare pieces may be another matter, but only if you know what you are doing. And remember, you are competing with those who actually deal in rare coins or numismatics for a living. By the time you make an initial purchase, the "profits" have already been taken, and that may well include a good portion of your "future profits" in the way of high dealer commissions on the deal.

While gold now stands approximately 68 percent below it's all time high of +- $850 per troy ounce in January of 1980, the overall coin market looks much more bleak, with some issues now commanding less than 10 percent of their all time highs achieved in 1989. The rare coin market is simply a much more volatile market, a much thinner and esoteric market than gold and silver, and much more difficult to understand from the standpoints of market movement, collector movement, etc. Take for example grading standards. Within each and every individual coin series and type, there are 70 individual grades possible for each coin under the current Sheldon Grading Standard, and even professional dealers have a hard time agreeing on a grade since even they will tell you that grading is "an art, and not a science". So here you have another open door for abuse where valuations are concerned.

Just a quick mention of collectors of the now popular State Quarters series. Such collectors at that level are anything but "rare coin" collectors or investors, although such a collection may eventually open doors to more serious collecting endeavors later on. These State Quarters are being made in the multi-millions to billions, and are not and will never be "rare". They are saved by the mint bag and rolls in uncirculated condition, not to mention all of those taken from circulation to fill the book store coin albums and cards. You simply cannot make something so common a "rare coin". To a lesser degree, the same holds true for many of this countries older coins, whether certified or "raw" as they are commonly called.

Numismatics has come a very long way in the 30+ years I have been involved in the hobby, but to enter such a field for purely investment purposes could well leave a very bad taste in one's mouth where this field of investing is concerned. I've seen it happen through problems of "overgrading", unreasonable and inflated valuations, just as unreasonable expectations as an investment medium, and each and every time because of a simple lack of knowledge of the "product", and in the end, a simple misunderstanding that "rare coins" ultimately find a home with the collector, not necessarily with the investor. When valuations inflate beyond the means of the true "base" of the hobby (the collector), then you have entered into what amounts to just another "greater fool" field of investment.

Just a few thoughts……..

Pragmatic@Christian#5544406/05/01; 21:12:27

True story (couldn't pass this up) ten years ago I thinned my 12 acres of NE Louisian creek bottom timber for $20,000. Plowed it all back into financing a marriage to a fantastic Russian wife who is now Magnum Cum Laude about to solve energy problems of the world; one of my better investments:) Now, that 12 acres is heavy timber once more but I already have a wife. Rabbit eye blue berries? The things grow like weeds In NE Louisian. Plant an acre and feed a city!!! They will grow 30 feet high are are absolutely delicious (need acidic soil). Here at College Station you get a little dab for $3. They propagate readily from sand rooting. How many acres you want to plant anyhow? Be a lot of fun to go in blueberry business with you Christian.

On subject, I am not sure $ has topped but gold may have found a bottom. Gee, first time there has been no plausible explantion behind it's surge and subsequent drop. Looks suspicious (nothing get's by me)

uponroofPragmatic#5544506/05/01; 21:14:13

The Golden Rule: He who has the gold (site) makes the rules.

I understand pardner.

There is a bewilderment experienced at the lack of concern by those you've 'left behind'. It's as if they never knew you. In fairness, I suspect they have yet to realize your situation.

However, there are some that will wake up and question your departure and look into the reason. They will eventually catch on that it was involuntary and cause them to stir the surface for the truth.

What was the offense....? The knowledge of the offense is only gained through a personal encounter with the over-reacting boot.

Perhaps some will gain courage, challenge the boot knowing the consequences. Have patience with them. You and I were once quiet as others were removed.

Like gold and silver confiscation, phoney reasoning that the sheeple accept. Time to move on.

All- please forgive this detour off the main road. Just a little therapeudic support group stuff goin on.

JMBHere's an eye opener...#5544606/05/01; 21:25:11

...and a little history lesson.
JMBPRAGMATIC#5544706/05/01; 21:32:41

Have you ever seen a gentleman driving around town in a Studebaker convertible? I think it's a 1950 Champion. You're in Texas, right?
PragmaticStudebaker#5544806/05/01; 21:57:54

JMB, I am looking and I am from Texas, College station area... gee.. whom am I looking for? Will be in Houston this weekend and will look there also.

Yea, extraordinary post at prudentbear. Thanks

Black BladeRE: MK - Collectable US Coin - Thank you#5544906/05/01; 22:10:58

I just got back from sharing a meal and a few microbrews with some NG geologist and driller friends. That was quite a good detailed response to my question. I admit that I also collect Morgans as well. I have a copy of "The Comprehensive US Silver Dollar Encyclopedia" authored and compiled by John W. Highfill that has several articles by several authors giving quite a history of US silver dollars. I also notice that among a large list of individuals that he gives credit to, I find your name. Thanks for the response. Should I make my way to Denver, I will have to make a point of "dropping in." Now to make my "Wish List" of collectable coins. Thank you,

- Black Blade

JMBPRAGMATIC#5545006/05/01; 22:13:54

First, the Home Coming tragedy put a sadness on many of us outside of Texas. I sure hope you all are feeling better.

The gentleman with the Studebaker goes by the name of B.B. Holland on Los Robles. He don't go to Houston much, so don't bother looking there;)

aunuggetsGuess it depends on the agenda of the moment.......#5545106/05/01; 22:27:07

Note the dates and times of the respective headlines from Kitco......

Gold up
CBS MarketWatch, Jun 06, 2001 00:01 AM

Gold Down
Associated Press, Jun 06, 2001 00:01 AM

Black BladeRE: aunuggets - More On Coins#5545206/05/01; 22:30:20

I tend to stick with slabbed PCGS coin if possible (mainly through reputation and don't always trust my own coin grading judgement), though I have found the occasional free coin that I like. I don't usually find myself at many coin shows or in a major city, so my ability to pick over exceptional coins is quite limited. I got into the coin collecting hobby when I was just a tike while staying with my grandfather many years ago. I began collecting Indian head pennies, Buffalo nickels, and Mercury dimes. When my grandfather died about 25 years ago, I and a cousin were fortunate to inherit his gold and silver coin collection (also a good way to pass wealth along without prying eyes to notice - if you get my drift). I would venture to say that perhaps a few of these young "collectors" of these modern coins such as state quarters will eventually become true collectors over the next few years. I heard rumor that Bill Gates was a collector of some rare coins, if true I would not be surprised. Anyway, this is a discussion that we don't have very often here on the forum. I thought that the my ultimate gold coin would be the octagonal Panama Exhibition coin (just dreamin’). Cheers and Thanks all.

- Black Blade

Black BladeNatural Gas Prices Remain High in Southern California#5545306/05/01; 22:57:11


To many experts, the woes of California's natural gas market are as profound as those of its electricity market. Natural gas prices have plunged in the last few months everywhere, that is, but Southern California. While gas in New York costs about $4 per thousand cubic feet, gas delivered to Southern California still costs more than $11 wholesale. At peak times, half of California's electricity is generated by gas-fired power plants, a higher proportion than in most parts of the country. And because 85 percent of the gas consumed in California comes from outside the state, the shortage of pipelines both into California and within the state has become a big handicap in fueling those plants. The strain has become especially acute as drought in the Pacific Northwest has curtailed imports of hydropower and gas-fired power plants have worked overtime to meet the demands of a booming state economy.

Black Blade: As summer temperatures rise, the supply of NG comes under pressure, not just for California, but across the US. This will further aggravate utility pricing for S. California and the effects on the California economy will be "Bad News." So stocks in S. Californian companies should do very well this summer as the "Bad News" will be out.

aunuggetsBlack Blade#5545406/05/01; 23:03:16

More On Coins

Like you, I started collecting at a young age. We were living in Southern California at the time, and my brother and I had a favorite uncle who would save his change for us, and bring it down from the Bay Area once a month or so. We were filling the Whitman Penny Folders then, and kept a keen eye out for unusual dates and types. The occasional Walking Liberty half dollar always got our attention at the local bank where dad would get his weekly paycheck cashed. We drew a big 25 cent per week allowance then, so the WLs cost us "two weeks pay", a big expendature with all those other usual childhood "needs" calling from the five-and-dime.

I remember well one weekend when the next door neighbors went to Vegas to see Elvis, and came home with a sack of approx. 25 silver dollars from the slots....(those were the days). First Morgan I ever owned was traded for two WL halves, and I still have that Morgan Dollar to this day. Nothing quite like your first big silver coin, especially watching the old black and white westerns and holding a direct connection to those early days of the wild west.

In later years (early to mid 70s actually), those Morgans were still my favorites, and I and a dealer friend spent many an hour at coin shows cherry-picking top grade uncirculated Morgans from dealer inventories before the big silver dollar rush leading up to the market top in '89. I remember buying what in todays grade would be MS67 and MS68 common dates for $8 to $12 apiece, and the dealers then thought we were crazy for paying such outrageous premiums !!!! HA ! The bulk of those were sold off to Heritage (Steve Ivy back then), David Hall, and numerous other dealers from '85 to '89 for several hundred dollars apiece. When the collectors stopped buying, we saw the handwriting on the wall, and liquidated most of our "duplicates" prior to the fall off in '89. Still, those were the best of times, when you could feel the excitement in the air, and gained more enjoyment from the "chase and deal" than any monetary profits. We had no slabbing services in the early days, so grading was pretty much by the seat-of-the-pants. But then as now, we always seemed to do best by buying and holding rather than trying to turn each coin too quickly.

On the side of course, we made many a trip to area banks for half dollar rolls through the late 70s, and accumulated many a bag of silver-clad halves "just for kicks". Still not sure where we came out best, on the numismatic or bullion side. Either way, we sure had fun !

Black BladeValero to cut runs unless exempted from Ca. blackouts#5545506/05/01; 23:09:21

NEW YORK, June 5 (Reuters) - Valero Energy Corp. (NYSE:VLO - news) said on Tuesday it would be forced to reduce production of gasoline and other distillates at its 130,000 barrel per day (bpd) Benecia refinery in California if it were not exempted from rolling blackouts this summer.

Black Blade: First Chevron, and now Valero. Could get "interesting." Anyone with any gas left could probably cruise down nearly empty CA freeways someday (maybe this summer).

Black BladeThe Art of the Deal#5545606/05/01; 23:20:03

I remember reading many stories of the good wheeling and dealing days in Morgans. It must have been a lot of fun for those who got in early and were able to get access to the vaults in local banks in Nevada and Montana to pick through the old bags of Morgans and make that special "Discovery" of some rare date silver dollar in exceptional condition like a cameo frost against a mirrored background and nary a bag scratch. How would it have been?

- Black Blade

Old YellerFrom sharfin at Kitco#5545706/05/01; 23:34:39

Oh-oh,from the looks of just one company's hedge position,trouble may lurk around any corner.Normandy is out on a pretty skinny limb,maybe this is where FN's cash and physical gold plays a role.
Black BladeRussia in crisis as vodka runs out#5545806/05/01; 23:35:44


RUSSIA was in crisis yesterday as vodka stocks fell fast after producers of the national drink suspended operations for fear of violating excise rules. Manufacturers and the media painted a grim picture of acute shortages and even riots to come if confusion over the new tax measures was not cleared up and production did not resume soon. Moscow's best known distillery, Kristall, maker of the Stolichnaya brand, was at a standstill because of the mix-up, as were hundreds of other factories and wineries across the country.

Black Blade: Yeah I know it does sound funny, but in the former Soviet Union this is the kind of event that could spark a revolution. Vodka is a currency of sorts where the actual ruble currency is a joke. In response to Randy's question about sound money - in Russia, aside from the obvious PMs, it could very well be "Vodka."

Black BladeThe Numbers Game#5545906/05/01; 23:48:15

Companies use every trick to pump earnings and fool investors. The latest abuse: "Pro forma" reporting


Sure, companies have always tried to present themselves in the best possible light. But some of today's practices, though perfectly legal, sail close to the wind: They seem designed to mislead unwary investors about the real financial state of companies that use them. Fading dot-coms, new tech giants, and venerable blue chips all hype their earnings. Cisco Systems Inc. subtracts payroll taxes on employee stock options in its earnings-per-share numbers. IBM lifts its earnings by assuming it would pay less into its pension fund, and Motorola Inc. boosts sales by lending huge sums to customers. "CEOs were obsessed with growth," says Christopher M. Davis, portfolio manager at the family firm of Davis Selected Advisers. "They, as in the past, tortured accounting to produce income statements that would be applauded by Wall Street." The full extent of bad stuff that happened during the boom is only now becoming clear--and it is worse than anyone thought. Ordinary investors and Wall Street pros alike are beginning to cry foul.

Black Blade: I have mentioned this here in the past, though I did not know it was called "Pro Forma" accounting, I just knew that it was "Sleazy." As this becomes more common knowledge, investors could get increasingly turned off by market investing. They were already burned once recently with the mania where growth in revenues and market share was all that mattered, even though those companies never earned a penny and did not intend to do so. Good article.

Cor Tauriinput for Christian#5546006/06/01; 00:02:10

You asked for ideas, and I can only think of one. Is there wild game on this property? Could you yourself or in conjunction with commercial interests get whatever permits, insurance, red tape whatever to rent out the area to hunters or offer guided hunts?

If this is solid woods, perhaps there are no deer, but if there are small clear cut areas, I would think they would be abundent. But I live in Ohio, where it seems deer must eat asphalt and derive great sustanence from it.

If not deer, and I suppose no one would pay to hunt rabbits and squirrel, perhaps turkey or something.

And perhaps you might reconsider "sang". Six years may seem a long time to wait for a harvest, but around here apparently it is at least reasonably profitable.

Christian, regarding your thoughts on credit creation and transactional prices, I am very interested in this subject, but in order for me to give it any serious consideration, I need to have some idea how you learned of this. Is there anything you can post that would help me verify this on my own?
I currently believe that it could be true, but for me to know it to be so, I need to "walk that path" myself.

Best Regards

Black BladeCalif. Banks Cite Energy Problems As a Risk#5546106/06/01; 00:06:45


Factor The coming of Y2K had companies scrambling to warn their investors that any number of catastrophes could force their operations to grind to a halt. Power outages, stranded elevators, and jumbled bank accounts were just some of the doomsday scenarios raised in 10Q filings in 1999. Fast-forward to California, 2001, substitute rolling blackout for Y2K, and the similarities in this year's crop of SEC filings are remarkable. "There is a certain unease about the ability of borrowers" to repay loans "due to the cost of energy, the impact of borrowers not being able to produce their product."

Black Blade: Not long ago when rumors that California Utes would default on their paper, certain shares of some bankers (notably Bank of America) took a big hit. Those risks have not gone away because it is not just the Utes that are in danger, but virtually every industry that relies on energy to produce a product or provide a service. As I have stated before, this energy crisis is different than the oil shocks of the past, this energy crisis is even more pervasive. Though it may not hit all at once - it is coming on like a slow burn , smoldering under the surface and eventually erupting into flame.

Peter AsherCavan Man (6/5/01; 18:00:47MT - msg#: 55430)#554626/6/01; 01:25:14

OK CM, (sigh!) I'll step outside.

Re <<<Yes, that does sound enticing but too bad persecution of Christians and Jews is culturally institutionalized.>>>>

Not sure what your trying to correlate between a proposed monetary system and a coincident religious suppression that I believe is counter to the Koran.

Re your <<<<I must ask you to explain why you are busting balls on this "free gold" theme of yours. >>>> I can't find anything in the Forum rules of engagement that refers to holding forth on a viewpoint, especially with broadly shared agreement as "busting balls," did you get yours caught in the reality wringer? If you have a conflicting viewpoint, how about telling us!

Re <<<One cannot live their life in a vacuum. One cannot create an idealized global monetary context in a vacuum either. Even Thomas More knew Utopia wasn't but fooled everyone nonetheless. Wishful thinking is highly encouraged around my house but, let's be realistic.>>>> I haven't said diddly about thinking, I suggested some acting. You can be part of the solution or part of the problem. I'm sure glad the signers of the Declaration of Independence didn't sit around the house engaging in wishful thinking.

Re <<<The poster to whom your cynical references are directed has come closer to the mark in interpreting current events of a political and monetary nature than anyone else on the boards. >>> Which particular poster that I and others are disagreeing with are you referring to (there's more then one) and just what is it that you consider is cynical? If you are referring along with your ridicule remark below to my saying that regulated Free Gold is oxymoronic, well the idea that any thing regulated can be free, is empirically ridiculous. Furthermore , someone having been maybe closer to the mark on interpretations or possibly having "insights, perspectives and analyses (that) are priceless;" and which perhaps "cannot be had at the finest American university" does not make any particular claim, or any particular allegation of truth, the least bit valid.

Down at the end you say you "have no reason to chip away at the foundation of what is an excellent venue for discussion." Disagreeing with a specific opinion that gold is set free by outlawing contracts on it as collateral, is hardly "chipping away at the foundation" but I see your " We can all sit around and dream about a monetary utopia until the cows come home if you define utopia by a pure metallic measurement but it ain't going to happen." and "whether or not the Euro is a Charmin look alike, time will tell." as doing just that.

It seems like you are actually referring to this specific person as the "foundation of what is an excellent venue for discussion." Well beside the fact that I (contrary to yourself in your post) have not attacked the messenger or even the general message, but actually only one singular specific idea: no ‘person’ here is a ‘foundation’ for our venue of discussion except to some degree our host. A person may be your or other peoples foundation, however, some of us choose to provide our own.

NetkingWhere's the Silver gone. / R Powell#554636/6/01; 02:37:45

The latest from Stott, not up to the Butler & Morgan camp standard Ag bulls. . . . but still worth a read right.
------------------------------------------------------------ R Powell(55436)Re<: ". . . I left word with the tower watch to keep a sharp eye open for Maddog and Richard 640. . .">
Amen from Netking, welcome to all newbugs, Dr Richard640 may as well come here too, lets face it, everbody else is! Richards spin on things would be a good blend, apples of gold in settings of silver in fact.

working-kirkConfiscation#5546406/06/01; 06:37:30

Econoclast (6/5/01; 09:06:46MT - msg#: 55392)

You make some logical reason why no confiscation but when has the government ever been logical.

I believe confiscation will happen for these reasons:

1.) They got away with it once. They will be bold enough to think they can do it again.

2.) If the poster (I forget his name) is right about the powers that be making sure they get all the gold and leaving none for anybody else, this will be the only way to shake out whatever gold held by us goldbug no matter it will cost more than yielded. Also, if it comes to that point, the soliers and policemen who do the shaken down will most likely be paid in some form of military script. So it may not cost them more.

3.) If the rumors of Fort Knox being totally empty of gold are true, then when paper money does collapse the government will be desperate enough to try anything.

The Confiscation will not take the form of the last robbery.

No I believe it will be made under the drug confiscation laws. As things break down, those who sell drugs will have more reason to turn to gold. I already have reason to believe this is happening. Police shake down dealers all the time and take their cash. I happen to come across a shakedown and saw the cops take the cash but dealer claim something as a cheap copper good luck charm. Actually I recognized it as gold but the policemen didn't. He got to keep his "good luck charm" You can bet that dealer told his friends.

One day the government will get into it head the only gold in use is being used by drug dealers. No honest person would want gold. There's no honest use they would claim and no reason to have gold unless you were trying to hide asset made from drug profiteering. So they plan to seize any gold coins and jewelery as an effort on heir never-ending war on drugs.

Since the government can claim to be fighting drugs, it can reassure other countries this is not reputiating the debt they own to them or a sign of inflation or any or the other lies they claim.

Anyway, I would like my fellow goldbugs to watch out for the day when the government decided to make holding gold illegal because it is part of the drug trade.

> I don't believe confiscation will happen this time around.

> 1. (and most importantly IMO) In 1933, gold was official
> money. Now, gold is officialy a commodity and not money
> anymore. Since gold is no longer part of the nation's
> money supply, I find it difficult to understand how
> confiscation could be implemented. Could the gov't make
> soybeans or coffee illegal (and not be just laughed at)?

> 2. Because gold is no longer money, and has even been
> forced out of the investment picture by the paper
> pushers, the amount dispersed between the citizens of the > U.S. is most likely not very much (sorry, I don't have an > estimate). And the gold that is now out, is kept
> privately and quietly by people who I believe would not
> generally give it up easily. Any effort to "round up"
> private gold would probably cost more than it yielded

Orville Goldenbachersound money#5546506/06/01; 07:07:03

Gold, Silver, Copper

Sound money must be something people believe in, something they esteem as having value.

Sound money is not easy to come by, but not so rare that everybody can't have some.

Sound money should not decay, or, deteriorate over time, even under adverse conditions. Sound money should not be subject to inflation .

The soundest money that has ever been is Gold, followed by Silver and Copper. i hesitate to add copper, but it is somewhat rare and is handy for small purchases, taxes, etc.

Nickle, zinc and paper are not sound at all, only fools could believe in.

Cattle, spices, herbs, etc. can all be used as money, but are for short term use and cannot be considered, "sound".

Guns, could be considered sound money under the right circumstances. But they are cumbersome and dangerous if not handled properly, not for your "average" saver.

We have been taught by our gov't not to save for a rainy day. Interest rates are so low, it just does not pay to save any more. We don't raise gardens because it does not pay, we can buy our food much cheaper and easier than we can raise it.

We have been taught by our gov't to be "grasshopper's", it's really not "our" fault. We elect these "leader's", but they have a mind of their own and do not always do as they are instructed.

Leighworking-kirk#5546606/06/01; 07:16:33

Hi, working-kirk! I enjoy reading your messages! You always seem to have some great stories.

When I read your post on confiscation, my heart sank because it seemed completely possible. But then I got to thinking about how other countries are encouraging their citizens to hold precious metals. How would it look if a nice Chinese family got arrested over here because they were carrying a few Pandas (something completely legal in China)? Wouldn't that make us look unreasonable? Or if Mexican citizens, who are being encouraged to buy silver, were shaken down at the border? We would look like the most human rights violating country on earth! Think about the new Moslem money! If American Moslems want to hold gold dinars, wouldn't the government be denying them freedom of religious expression if they interfered with that?

So now my spirits are back up - not because I think the U.S. is becoming more reasonable, but because other countries are!

JMBORIVILLE GOLDENBACHER#5546706/06/01; 07:34:38


An esscential characteristic: Sound Money is not easily inflated or produced.

Please Orville, a little respect for our last coin with intrinsic value....the mighty Nickel. I know that most of you are not aware of the following startling fact but since Orville has broached this sensitive topic I feel it is my duty, as a Nickel hoarder, to inform you that our financial system is hanging by a Nickel thread. When the Nickel finally receives the full effects of Gresham's Law, an incredible hyperinflation will ensue....that's what I just learned from an operative of Bob Chapman and I think he's right.

Orville GoldenbacherJMB-nickle#5546806/06/01; 07:47:14

I like nickle, but because of it's a fairly common metal, i don't keep much in the old vault'since there is not much room left. with gold and silver so dog gone cheap, heck even the sterling may be keeping company with the nickle, soon ;)
MO VER MEGBlack Blade#5546906/06/01; 08:03:58

It seems that some (all) minimg stocks will be hurt by increased energy prices and availability problems. Do you have any thoughts on which companies that may have the best energy supplies?


justamereBearCristian 55402#5547006/06/01; 08:08:22

Were I you, and I don't know enough of your situation to be intelligent about this, but making some assumptions...

I would select say 5% of my area, and sell logging rights to that area, (which finances you and the operation at least somewhat). Then, after it was clearcut, I would firekill the remaining vegetation, lay down some straight lines, and plant seedlings. Next year, and for a couple of years, you would need to mow the competing vegetation till the seedlings were able to self kill the competing stuff. You could do about 5% per year. The nice neat lines and regular spacing, make subsequent work a breeze, and insure straight growth. In 21 years, you can start over with the first 5%, or take every second tree if you want really fat logs.


JMBORVILLE GOLDENBACHER#5547106/06/01; 08:37:32

That old vault of yours must be something to see...way to go.

I've found that the best way to save nickels is to throw them out back...yep, just toss them into a path leading to the rear of the yard. There's nothing like a brisk morning walk along a nickel coated path...bare footed is the best. When those nickels squiggy up between your toes it makes you feel tingly all over.

It looks like this AU and AG market is going to test our patience....again.

Orville GoldenbacherJMB-Walking through the nickles....#5547206/06/01; 08:56:09

Sounds like a real hoot! make sure your bare feet are dry in freezing weather or you might get stuck on your morning stroll....

Sometimes when i need an i.d. tag, i put a nickle through the rolling machine. it makes a nice oval shaped blank, easy to engrave or stamp.

I suppose if it closes below 265 we can expect more of the same, yes, patience is the key.

Best of luck in (Y)our investments,

Tree in the Forestauspec, netking-Fort Knox, the COT and other things (The Cowsills?)#5547306/06/01; 09:02:04

auspec: Re: your remark of our jaded response to Lady Leigh's Fort Knox revelation. I believe we have discussed this issue before (perhaps many times) and so the appearance of apathy. However, we do have many newbies here and I have no objection to re-hashing this issue.

As I recall, I posted previously that Fort Knox was built in the 1930's and at that time was a perfectly adequate means of safeguarding the nation's gold. Here we are today in the 21st century, however, and with twenty something Russian suitcase bombs mysteriously "missing", the Goldfinger scenario suddenly becomes a real possibility. Fort Knox was never built to withstand that kind of assault and so if I were in charge of the gold, I would long ago have moved it elsewhere. Thus we have 2 possible explanations for the disappearance of Fort Knox gold:
1) It has been legitimately moved to "higher ground".
2) It has been sold.

Actually...there is...a third possibility...
It may at this very moment be residing in a Swiss account in the name of our illustrious ex-president. In fact, this is probably the most likely of the three! There ya go...mystery solved!! J' m'appelle Clousseau!!! <grin>

netking: You asked for comments on the COT being net short in gold. Well I commented on this a while back also, along with my prediction (based on other peoples predictions) that POG would drop. Actually this is a logical possibility and I based this statement on the fact that before "they" would let gold rise, they first must run the longs by driving it down. And they wouldn't want their friends to lose money on the downside so before driving it down, they first must run the shorts by driving it up. The result: a spike up and then a spike down. We've had the spike up. BTW: COTs are now very short at nearly 100,000 contracts as of 5/29.

Al FulchinoPeter Asher (6/6/01; 01:25:14MT - msg#: 55462#5547406/06/01; 09:17:18

Good, Fair, Thoughtful Response and Well Measured Too!

And if you stay away from questioning FOA/TG in any way whatsoever you will never see the Tower Tool, Assassin EscapeTheMatrix. <grin>
Al FulchinoChristian (06/05/01; 20:31:05MT - msg#: 55442#5547506/06/01; 09:26:45

Add Trails

Dear Christian,
Up here in New England, some folks have banded together to make good use of their lots. And if I remember correctly, you have 967 acres. Snowmobile and Trail bike/FourWheeler clubs have sprung up and combined their resources with those of logging companies and state land to provide thousands upon thousand of miles of great trails. And the public, the private landowners and both the state and federal gov'ts have worked pretty well together on this. There is money to be made/shared by al, who work on it. If this might be your cup of tea, you micht check it out. I do not know your circumstances, but you might find this of use. We have several farms and log clearing operations going on right behind where we live and I bought the family a couple of snowmobiles. It is a great way to recreate without driving far. As for you, if you are in a seasonal type can kick the users out after the season <grin> and have your peace and quiet back. Good for you, being able to have this much land.

Orville GoldenbacherFort Knox, Tree in the Forrest, all...#5547606/06/01; 09:31:51

Everything you ever wanted to know about Fort Knox.....
Except, how much gold (if any) is really in there.....

Funny why they keep it such a secret, being OUR gold and all.....Just makes you wonder....WHAT "THEY" ARE REALLY UP TO? sURE it is obvious, but so long as only "THEY" know the secret, "WHO" can say any different?

Go GATA, Go Gold, Go Nickle


JMBORVILLE GOLDENBACHER#5547706/06/01; 09:48:16

private conversation...please ignore

Hey Orville, remember that ass chewing you gave me awhile back? Well thanks, I needed that.

Now Orv, if you're going to start pushing nickel (A GREAT IDEA) you gotta spell it's "L before E except after K" in this case it's "nickel"....I think.

Now we're even, hehe.

Orville GoldenbacherGo Nickel, Yes, that is better...#5547806/06/01; 10:09:14

Thanks, JMB for your gentle correction. I appreciate the opportunity to correct my mistakes instead of repeating them.

Looks like nickel is doing fine.


MoutainGoldFED is Considered Brilliant!!?? It Has Blundered!!#5547906/06/01; 10:17:49

FED has created too much money for US economy. This makes inflation certain down the road. The question is the severity.

When the USDollar gets "whacked" not today, this will put gasoline on the fire. As a "practical economist" always appealing to the law of supply and demand, I am pegging 2003 to 2005 as the inflationary window. Takes time for the money blunder to work through the system.

Gold & Silver will LEAD this inflation. Their ultimate high will be determined by the severity of the inflation. What about the deflation argument? The FED has shown its remedy...easy money!! They will pump money and even go as low as 1% Fed Funds Rate to fight recession or deflation!! All IMHO.

Flat as trader and going Golfing again...healthy and addictive.

Good Luck All
PS Sold Swiss Franc at loss...fight another day.

SHIFTYPhoenix Rising #5548006/06/01; 10:27:46

General Washington's Vision

Thank you for posting that story.


megatronMountainGold#554816/6/01; 10:49:58

Sorry you 'lost' on the Swf. I'm waiting to step in (long).
When the 'blue line crosses the red line' :')
(moving avg's of course)

ROSEBUD99committment of traders#554826/6/01; 10:55:07

i have wondered, where would the bullion banks or the likes of goldman sacks be classified. If they were "the commercial traders" then in the case of gold, we would expect them to be net short right?? and in the end(when ever that is <grin>) they will be wrong right??? Thoughts??
uponroofWGC Goes After IMF on Gold as an Exchange Rate Peg#554836/6/01; 10:59:34

Politics and the WGC seem to be coming together more and more

The WGC is not my favorite organization, but this time they are moving in the right direction. The jist of this release is based on the premise that "gold is not a mere commodity"
There's a reason Central Banks continue to hold gold in their vaults. They are actually going after the IMF to rewrite the international gold transaction laws.....and they're using ammo from an former BoE and IMF official.

OK have my attention. I am impressed, HOWEVER, now is the time to put your money where your little press release (mouth) is. How about spending some of that 22 million dollar advertising budget to lobby those capable of changing the laws....and while your at it, donate about 2 million to GATA.

That would do a hell of a lot more good than any glitzy magazine jewellery campaign. Gold is a political prisoner and your supposed to be our 'State Dept.' not a trinket cart selling jewellery on the streets of India.


For IMMEDIATE release – 6 June 2001

Gold's role in the IMF

LONDON: 6 June, 2001 – The current prohibition by the International Monetary Fund against using gold as an exchange rate peg is anachronistic and potentially damaging to some developing countries, it is said in a new report from the World Gold Council (WGC).

The WGC has published an updated version of its study into the role of gold in the International Monetary Fund's activities. The study, "The IMF and Gold", was prepared by Dick Ware, a former Bank of England and IMF official, currently working for the World Gold Council.

The paper analyses the operations of the IMF and its use of gold since the Fund's creation in the immediate aftermath of the Second World War. Mr Ware traces the developments in the Fund's policies and strategies through the economic turmoil of the 1950s and 1960s and the collapse of the Bretton Woods system, which culminated in the early 1970s in a deliberate attempt to write gold out of official monetary arrangements.

However, Mr Ware says that the current prohibition in the IMF's Articles against using gold as part of a country's exchange rate arrangements is anachronistic and should be dispensed with. For a number of countries it may be sensible to incorporate gold in a currency or commodity basket anchoring the exchange rate.

"We are not talking here about a return to an all-embracing Gold Standard. But for some countries the use, or part-use, of gold in an exchange rate peg might be beneficial. For some developing countries, especially where gold forms a significant part of their exports, establishing some sort of link to its price may make more sense than tracking the dollar and creating an exposure to the effects of US economic policy," he says.

However, such an arrangement would require a change in the IMF's Articles which would be a "long and arduous process. But times have moved on and there is no longer any need to anathematize gold, especially if its partial use in this way might improve the economic lot of a small number of countries which need all the stability they can get."

The IMF continues to hold gold as it serves an important function in underpinning the Fund's financial strength. Mr Ware says this is especially important today when the Fund is able to make available to members unprecedentedly large multiples of quota. Furthermore, it has remained the majority view of the Fund's members that it is better for it to retain its gold against unknown contingencies rather than to sell it and invest the proceeds elsewhere. The IMF's gold holdings have also recently been used to support the debt-relief programme for the Heavily-Indebted Poor Countries (HIPCs) and Mr Ware argues that such activities demonstrate that gold is by no means an idle asset.

Central banks are also large holders of gold and, despite some gold sales in recent years, the official sector still holds some 33,000 tonnes of gold, around 25% of the world's total above ground stocks. Of this the IMF holds 3,217 tonnes, about 10% of official sector holdings and a little more than 2% of total stocks.

Mr Ware says that one of the reasons why so much gold is still held by the official sector reflects gold's earlier role as an explicit anchor for both domestic and international monetary systems. While that role has changed in theory there is little desire on the part of many official holders to dispose of their gold. Countries such as the USA, France, Germany and Italy continue to hold significant stocks.

Gold is not a ‘mere’ commodity, he says. "The major economic powers continue to hold - and see value in holding - gold in their reserves. The IMF's undoubted credit-standing is also supported by the gold in its balance sheet. Gold gives a monetary authority a degree of freedom on a different plane from that obtained by holding reserves in foreign currencies."

"Since no one can forsee what the next 50 years will bring to the international monetary system, the ability of the IMF to respond is paramount," he says. "At that stage gold might once again become a factor and both the IMF and its members would be pleased to have retained it."

The "IMF and Gold" is essential reading for anyone interested in the activities of the gold market and the international financial system. It can be obtained from the World Gold Council at 45 Pall Mall, London, SW1Y 5JG. Telephone: 020 7930 5171.
- ends -

Contacts: Dick Ware, WGC
020 7930 5171
Keith Irons, Bankside Consultants
020 7220 7477 or 07885 356 639

The World Gold Council is an international association of leading gold producers which has the primary aim of increasing demand for gold world-wide. The WGC has its headquarters in London and maintains regional offices in New York, Singapore, Dubai, Tokyo and Mumbai.

megatronMountaingold#554846/6/01; 11:14:40

From the looks of it I won't be 'longing' for any Swf until it strongly crosses 61.5 (upwards). Some of these moving avg crossings give very accurate signals to go short,though, at this point I would be wary of shorting anything that was inversely correlated to the $US. Boy, if there was ever a long term short, when the gov't announces it's selling 1000 tons. Looks like a double bottom,?.Thoughts?
AELnot much nickel in nickels#554856/6/01; 11:15:11

JMB (06/06/01; 07:34:38MT - msg#: 55467)
"Please Orville, a little respect for our last coin with intrinsic value....the mighty Nickel."

according to:

Jefferson Nickel content: Composition: 75% copper, 25% nickel

LeighNetking - Silver Confiscation#554866/6/01; 11:28:57

Netking, in a silver crisis, what do you think the chances are of silver-consuming photo film being outlawed? After all, we can buy digital cameras if we want to take pictures. I think film is the largest user of silver, and outlawing it would ease up demand quite a bit.

It would be VERY hard to confiscate silver, I think. Can you imagine troopers going from house to house rounding up people's sterling sets and raiding sock drawers?

megatronThe Bubble bursts!#554876/6/01; 11:39:54

My personal experience with the 'new economy' came to an undramatic end today. The co. I have worked for producing 3D cartoon SFX cash flow became critically low, and so a 'fix-it' ceo was brought in from New York. He 'fixed it' :)
We had, at the peak,400 employees. 80% were under 30 years old. Many took 'early retirement' packages. Fortunately for me being old and experienced(37), they laid me off to help clear the balance sheet, and are re-hiring me under contract in two months for the fall shows. At twice the money! The rationale is that this will make shareholders happy in the short-term, long-term who knows. Extremely stupid management. Now I can trade gold stocks all summer long:)

JMBAEL#554886/6/01; 11:54:55

Your research indicates 25% nickel in the nickel...right you are. Now then for your next assignment....I think the nickel has more intrinsic value than any other of our coins in circulation. Am I correct? Guesses are accepted.
AELpennies 'n nickels#554896/6/01; 12:40:41

JMB (6/6/01; 11:54:55MT - msg#: 55488)

AEL Your research indicates 25% nickel in the nickel...
right you are. Now then for your next assignment....
I think the nickel has more intrinsic value than any
other of our coins in circulation. Am I correct?

......... close call. The nickel is 25% nickel, and
nickel is going for circa $8/lb, while copper is going
for circa $2/lb. If pennies and nickels were the same
size/weight, and pennies were 100% copper (are they?),
then it would be even-steven between the two. In any case
the difference cannot be very great.

AELoops!#554906/6/01; 12:42:47

I forgot about the 75% copper in the nickels! So obviously
the nickels have much more intrinsic value than pennies.
("much" more! he!)

Randy (@ The Tower)Unfortunately, two OFF TOPIC items...#554916/6/01; 12:45:02

To Peter Asher and Al Fulchino (all others may scroll past please)

I did not want in any way to fan the few gossipy flames that seem to always burn at the edges (and occasionally flare up brighter than gold) here at the Castle's roundtable. I must grudgingly offer this post, however, having recently received an e-mail insisting that any silence on such matters can be construed as "agreement" or "submission" on particular items. I know for certain that at least one of you feels this way in particular, hence this post.

Peter, on Friday, we were all witness to an immature outburst by a poster known as Golden Truth in which he "played the victim card". Rather than striving for clearer perspective and better understanding, he chose instead to lash out and blame what he currently perceives as his investment mistakes on another poster or posters. In all my experience with people, this is not an act of maturity, nor is it the hallmark of this forum. To be sure, unless an investment advisor or money manager has been specifically hired for the purpose of managing a person's money, that person carries the responsibility for his own investment actions. It is as simple as that.

And yet, Peter, when I chastized this individual's behavior in a fashion suitable to the particulars of the occasion, you rose out of the grass like his personal white knight with an effort to turn the table on me. With some new logic that I have yet to understand, you claimed that this "victim" also had dyslexia, and somehow as a result of the dyslexia was not deserving of my rebuke. Peter, I am not a doctor, but I scarcely believe that dyslexia can be offered as an excuse for the immature denial of self-responsibility at issue at the time. Am I missing something here, or is adult behavior too high a standard to be promoted at the forum? It sure seems to have served us well in the past, but then, perhaps, you didn't have an axe to grind?

Al Fulchino, you seem to have embraced the idea that the poster called escapethematrix is either a friend or agent of mine specifically, or of The Tower in general. If he were, I would think that I would know -- for two reasons. One, this particular gold-related aspect of The Tower's overall operations is not widely publicized, privacy and discretion being the better part of valor in such things. It is therefore a reasonable claim that I have familiar relationships with all associates who are directly knowledgeable and supportive of these efforts. I would think I would know them if they were posting here.

Second, I have the pleasant task of greeting and welcoming each new arrival to this forum if and when they request to have a posting password issued to them. As this river of humanity flows steadily past my corner office at The Tower, it is indeed the case that a face known to me is among them, in which times my standard greeting is more uniquely tailored to suit the level of friendship. It could be said that the simple act of registration at the forum is how they demonstrate their support, for as a rule, sadly, they do not use their passwords to post.

With that, escapethematrix is not the handle that anyone known to me has chosen, and memory is not at issue here because my records show that this password was issued only five months ago. So, unless this kind person has since been "hired on" at The Tower without sharing this tidbit of information, then I am confident that he is not a "TowerTool" or somesuch as you have recently elected to "place your bets". Al, does it seem so unlikely or distasteful to you that anyone here could have possibly earned any unsolicited support from among the large population of eligible posters at this forum? To be sure, any "solicited" support as you imply arrives only by phone, e-mail, or sit-down meetings down the street beside the industrial coffeebean roaster (ref. ealier post).

Randy (@ The Tower)Back to China#554926/6/01; 13:15:03

Various projects have kept me well-occupied, so I don't know if this has been previously posted here. BridgeNews recently reported that the People's Bank of China is targeting January 1, 2002 to open the country's first gold market in Shanghai, provided all goes well with a trial trading system to be launched October-December of this year.

Quite a day, January 1st. Official introduction of the tangible euro currency within the European Monetary Union, AND a new gold market in China. Are you keeping pace with the changing times? To be sure, the world-reserve use of the dollar is little more than a legacy of the past.

NetkingLeigh / Megatron/MountainGold#554936/6/01; 13:16:37

Leigh(55486)- Good questions. I have to dash for some appointments, will reply soon PTL.

MountainGold/Megatron - Swf?, Si call's are best thing since sliced bread.

Thanks to MK, Randy & CPM staff for a great forum, THE place to be.

uponroofDid I say $22 million WGC ad campaign?.......Sorry, it's $55 million!!!!!! #554946/6/01; 13:23:58


Can you imagine what GATA could do with that kind of money? I saw a message from them the other day that mentioned the 'take' for the day (contributions) at $430.00. How can they possibly compete against the forces they challenge on that kind of budget?! Sorry, but I am going to ask all to support GATA (and LeMet) in any way you can.

I wonder if the majority of mines that contribute to the WGC 'ad campaign' pushed hard enough, they could squeeze a 'paltry' million bucks out of the budget for GATA.

The gold industry (WGC) is forever playing catch up with public perception. Now the WGC is playing on the 'historical significance' of gold, which is better than the fashion model image adorned in gold, but seriously lacking any political punch.

Use some of that 55 million to change politicians and bankers minds, not consumers shopping habits.

From the article:

"...The $55 million campaign will focus on "warmth, sensuality, spirituality and the historical significance associated with gold..."

"...said WGC global marketing manager Michael Pace. "Gold isn't just about adornment. It's about a deeper inner feeling of confidence and positivity which is created when consumers wear gold..."
btw-Randy at the Tower-It is refreshing to see an open discussion about posting conduct, good or bad, at this forum. Much better than posters guessing as to what their status is amongst the ones with their fingers on the button. In other words I do appreciate you being up front.
Please let me know if promoting GATA/LeMet is not acceptable.

Christian(No Subject)#554956/6/01; 13:36:16

The Fed is trading Treasury debt for GSE debt. Why? The IMF was something else before it was called the IMF. What was it? Presently Greenspan is doing what the Bank of Japan did years ago and that is using home mortgage collateral (GSE's) to increase money supply. Because of doing just that Japan went through a massive real estate collapse. Why is the Fed using increased loans on home mortgage to hold the stock market from falling? For money to be good it has to produce usefull and real things. If you inflate a $100,000 house to $300,000 is the house really worth more? Credit Creation gold is based on a bundle of commodities. What are they? All this came into being in 1976. According to the FED they own the money- even if it is in my wallet. The FED owns the gold even if I have it buried somewhere. Money is a contract against another persons labor owned by the FED. Stock and bond certivicates are owned by the FED. Who owns the FED. Are we the United States of whoever owns the FED. We are private property of the FED. I thought owning people was against the law.
uponroofOK's an example of a 'political' ad for gold#5549606/06/01; 13:44:15

A video commercial or still image ad with the following:

A Dollar Bill and Gold Coin on a split screen...
A lit match underneath each....
The dollar burns up....

The words: "How safe is your 'money'"

Simple, to the point, yet subliminal and thought provoking.

We have to start somewhere. Little 10 second ads like that on CNBC would make a dent in the current preception of 'useless gold'.

Ok the soapbox is free.

Hi-HatChristian#5549706/06/01; 13:52:10

Hundreds of millions will die in the journey
out of BABYLON.

The sin was that the EVIL was denied.

JMBAEL#5549806/06/01; 14:20:29

Thank you for your #55489-90

You've confirmed my suspicions...The Mighty Nickel RULES! Our entire monetary system rests on the intrinsic strength of the nickel...a great starter coin for kids to save. The pre-1982 penny is a good one. Give them two "phonies" for one "copper" and they'll save like crazy. Some of the '82's are good but set them aside.

Now for your next assignment.

Do you think DROOY will break a Buck and/or will the Lease Rates break 2% before this "buying opportunity" ends? I kind think both will happen....what does your research indicate?

MoutainGoldmegatron Swiss Franc#5549906/06/01; 14:44:20

Could be a major low in NOW!!

Consider Canadian Dollar...had buy at 6520 basis June contract now 6560...this is good sign for commodities like Gold and work suggests 6700 to 7000 in next 8 weeks.
No investment advice and IMHO Do your own due diligence.

I'll Let this Forum know when SF is breaking out.....Gold and Silver will follow the SF or all go up together.

Back to work(writer& trader) after nice round of Golf...a little work a little play...just like in kindergarden!

PS USDollar is strong since British Pound and Euro weak...wins by default.

nickel62Didn't know I was only 25%#5550006/06/01; 14:53:56

Thanks for the update....??
BelgianOfficial Gold and WGC (Uponroof)#5550106/06/01; 15:03:14

Bring Official Gold (OG) into the daylight. Stop treating these Goldreserves as exiled in obscure catacombes. Change Gold's pseudo mystique into genuine public responsability.
Have the courage to populize it (again) without the necessaty for secret competition with currency. Stop the un-necessary (speculative) selling/lending(leasing) and derivative plays that are not at all compatible with the "anchor" function. Spend all 55 mil.$ on this kind of initiatives. Reserve a part of Goldreserves for creditcreation with Goldbonds and minimal interest. Use it to stop the permanent depreciation spiral. This is the kind of new research that I humbly want to suggest to major goldproducers and holders. Let the gold-industry come up with promotion money. Let Gold made a peace pact with its rival US$ and let them live together. AN adequate sensibilazation campaign might help to get creative thinking to start.

The excisting attitude versus gold is sclerosised. It is up to the goldproducers, despitite their fragmentation, to revitalise Gold in a more creative fashion. They lack the courage or the incentive or creativity ?

Stubbornly refusing to promote, responsibly, the investment purpose of Gold, against nefast for both.
Glowing Gold needs the firm perception of everlasting value.
Goldproducers don't carry any responsibilty towards currency support or promotion. It is not enough anymore to be a good miner. A BMW is a splendid car, but much more than that. Wakie, wakie, producers !

aunuggetsIntrinsic Values of Cents vs. Nickels#5550206/06/01; 15:19:37

Sat down and did a little calculating on the values of the two coins being discussed.

The current "melt" value of the coins figured at $6.27/lb nickel and $1.76/lb copper are as follows:

The "nickel" 5 cent coin (75% copper - 25% nickel composition) is worth approximately 3.22 cents

The current copper plated zinc cent (1982 to date) is worth only a very tiny fraction of a cent. Couldn't even find a good quote on zinc to make the calculation.

HOWEVER, the older one cent coins are another story......

1981 and earlier one cent coins (pennies) contain 95 percent copper and the balance a mixture of zinc and tin, making them "bronze" rather than copper cents. At todays quote of $1.76/lb copper, the older cents are worth 1.169 cents each, or 16.9 percent over face value.

Worth picking out of pocket change ? Still alot of them floating around !

As for other "clad" coinage currently in circulation, the dime, quarter, and half are made up of an outer shell of 75% copper - 25% nickel, same alloy as the five cent coin, sandwiched over a core of pure copper. Was unable to find an exact weight of the component metals in these coins, but they would be far less (percentage wise) than the lower denomination 5 cent coin or the older one cent coins.

Peter AsherRandy (@ The Tower) 12:45:02MT - msg#: 55491)#5550306/06/01; 15:24:08

A not so off subject (IMO) response.

Randy, I stand corrected! Your "chastised this individual's behavior in a fashion suitable to the particulars of the occasion," was a response that I thought violated the agreed upon standards of decorum. I wasn't aware that ‘tit-for-tat’ was an exception. I totally agree with you regarding your view of GT's post and had you at the time said your " To be sure, unless an investment advisor or money manager has been specifically hired for the purpose of managing a person's money, that person carries the responsibility for his own investment actions. It is as simple as that." the standards would have been upheld.

When I, in your words, " rose out of the grass" (now there's a dandy line) I was referring to a specific post of GT's where he requested our bearing with him regarding his communication difficulties. Beyond the essence of what you posted today, your rebuke IMO should have been on the E-mail line. What provoked me to ‘strike like a snake ‘ as you imply, was what I considered an abuse of power. As the person who has the position of deleting pass codes at their finger tips, shouldn't you strive to the greatest degree to maintain dignity and decorum?

Finally, re << you didn't have an axe to grind? >> --- Most certainly!

I keep my ax constantly honed, (You should try some of Robin's cayenne laced brain formula) all the better to slice off the heads of concepts that violate empirical data.

Since you are obviously aware that I have taken a few swings in your direction,
I will identify the targets so that you may have a better chance to deflect the blows.

1) The discussion regarding the recipe for hyperinflation where you responded to specific quantitative analysis by saying you had already spoken proof to the contrary and were too busy to respond to someone who you consider should have read what you said and then had simply failed to understand the absolute truth of it.

2) You post frequent reports of Fed injections into the money supplies, at random apparently when they service your position. You do not address the quantitative totals as they may rise or fall, and a month ago I asked you if you could comment on the report of the ‘decline’ in M-3, to which there was total IMO self serving silence.

You are, of course, not obligated to do anything other than what you are doing. And I am not obligated to remain silent while waiting to see, using CM's phrase of yesterday, "‘whether or not (whatever) is a (whatever), time will tell."

Sincerely; (If I am a snake in the grass, try and regard me as) ‘your’ snake in the grass: Peter

CoBra(too)@Belgian/Uponroof specifically #5550406/06/01; 15:27:06

As Bobby Godsell of Mega-Hedger Anglo was made President of WGC recently he already called for countries being in hock to the IMF to pay back in gold. A procedure not allowed since the Jamaica Accord, I presume -all loans and servicing of same has to be in equivalent of paper-SDR's -
what a crock! Speaking of the fox in the chicken coop - pop goes the weasel!

I don't know, what to make of it, except my gut feeling is Bobby may sell everything forward - even Go(l)d. So in terms of supporting GATA I would suggest to invest just 1% of your net profit on your next gold/or mining deal to their/our case and it's even tax deductible for US. - And you'll never know, who was helping whom to the gain ...

Or do you - cb2

Randy (@ The Tower)Fed gives a little, takes a little#5550506/06/01; 15:29:38

The Fed temporarily absorbed $3.445 billion from banking system reserves today through open market matched sale-purchase transactions. The market in federal funds was slightly soft, at 3.94 percent and below the FOMC target.

However, contrary to that action, the Fed also engaged in the addition of $470 million in permanent reserves via the outright purchase of Treasury bonds (dated November 2021 - February 2029) in open market operations.

Go figure. Then diversify into gold.

R PowellRosebud99#5550606/06/01; 16:02:38

Asked earlier, "I have wondered, where would the bullion banks or the likes of goldman sacks be classified?"
This was asked in reference to the COT reports.
I believe that Goldman, Chase and others act as brokers for others and trade "on their own handle" for themselves. These guys also are the bullion banks, no??
As speculative traders or brokers representing the same, they should be classified as large speculators (not commercials) in the COT reports. But, when operating as bullion banks, they are contributing to the supply of product to the market so they are now "commercials" in the COT report, yes?? This is using a definition of "commercials" as either suppliers or users of product.
Rosebud99, good question. Is this a possible answer as to why the COT reports, like so many usually reliable indicators, often don't help in analysing the gold market. Goldman and others must love the confusion. Can anyone help Rich and Rosebud99??

RockgrabberChristian, I must give me cent.#5550706/06/01; 16:15:07

Grow herb. Forget hemp. Put (hide) about 1 plant per acre for roughly 1000. Take the money out of the goverments pockets. Plus what a great product. SIr, I am sure you then realize the story with Dupont, and the making of weed illigal, due to the fact hemp was easy to make into paper, but natural paper was not Duponts angle on business, hence money. So they could not have it. I have an idea besides that one. Its a cool product too. Bamboo. You can eat it, use it fool all sort of building applications, it makes fuel, and its catching on. (I think. Yep people are starting to actually buy it. BAMBOO, another plant of the future. But only when Mr. Babylon dies. Untill then free concretized energy, go gold.
Randy (@ The Tower)Pete#5550806/06/01; 16:16:27

I believe I extended to you the benefit of any doubt and the courteous title/role of "white knight" in describing your actions. In an attempt to capture an artistic flavor, I chose "grass" over either "rocks" or "earth" in describing the appearance of the mounted champion as he arrives upon the scene, cresting a nearby roll of land. OK, fine. So let's say you rose from the hoof-trodden soil or the bowels of the earth. Do you like that better? The fact that you see yourself as my "snake" tells me something. Not pleasant. Why is mine an ankle you desire to strike? Is a simple exchange of thoughts (limited to gold/economics/money) not enough to ask of a forum and those who participate? Is it absolutely necessary that your personally preferred "stance" be validated as THE single correct one through consensus or by attrition of those with energy to raise an alternate view as time allows them? You seem to have misjudged our limitations. We are not electing an emperor here. We are here to discsuss the many strands in this golden web that mankind has woven. I'll leave it at that.
Gandalf the Whiteaunuggets (06/06/01; 15:19:37MT - msg#: 55502)#5550906/06/01; 16:19:09

Aunuggets says: "1981 and earlier one cent coins (pennies) contain 95 percent copper and the balance a mixture of zinc and tin, making them "bronze" rather than copper cents. At todays quote of $1.76/lb copper, the older cents are worth 1.169 cents each, or 16.9 percent over face value."
**********SIR Gold Nuggets -- where are you getting the $1.76 a pound price for Spot copper ? The Hobbits have lots of those old "dirty coppers" to sell you at those prices !!

Hill Billy MitchellNickel etc.#5551006/06/01; 16:26:56

Every time I waltz into my favorite local coin shop to pick up a little junk silver the dealer tries to sell me war nickels. (some ’42, all ’43, ‘44, ’45 nickels composition as follows: - 35% silver, 56% copper, and 9% manganese. He tells me that he will sell them to me at very close to silver melt, I think. He tells me also that 20 of these nickels are worth more than 10 post '64 dimes. Well whoop-ty-do. Something seems inconsistant there as it wouldn't take much to exceed the value of 10 post '64 dimes. I haven't bitten yet. Anyone out there know much about these particular nickels?

I was wondering also: Nickel must have been in high demand for war related reasons. But what? – Copper penny production was replaced by steel in ’43. Looks to me like we need a war (real war) to be able to cash in on the pre-’82 pennies and non-war nickels.

Another note: - apart form the storage problem I am convinced that circulated 40% Kennedy's are the best bet for future melt when silver goes to the moon.

Diversify, I say: - it is fun if not profitable. Like this: a couple of certified MS 63 or MS 64 common St. Gaudins, $1,000 face bag (junk) silver, $1,000 face 40% silver, 2,000 Silver Eagles, 1,000 BU 1921 Morgan Silver Dollars, 100 (1 oz)Gold Eagles, 100,000 pre-’82 pennies and 25,000 rounds of lead. Something strange like this will pay off some day. This is definitely investment advice. Accumulation advice - Gold Eagles only! No, I am not associated with USAGOLD, save as a small time customer and a big time recommender. USAGOLD would, of necessity, have to distance itself from me. Too far over the edge.


TannehillIsn't sound money an oxymoron?#5551106/06/01; 16:27:26

Much like 'government intelligence'

since Alan Greenspan can't even definite money, how are we as mere mortals supposed to define sound money.

I may not know what sound money is, but I definitely know what it is not.

Sound money does not go like this...

Print currency => buy gold, print more currency => buy more gold, continue printing currency like it is going out of style => sell gold

you now have sound money because it is backed by gold...not

Am I the last sheeple on the planet earth or what?

That's all from Tannehill

Cavan ManHey Randy#5551206/06/01; 16:35:54

Your're on track! However, I wish you would address Peter's #2. I've often asked myself about these injection proclamations. "$2 billion today; so what? How 'bout a comparison to same period last year?" What did Lord North say about lies, damned lies and statistics or do I have the wrong source? Regards.....CM
aunuggetsGandalf the White #5551306/06/01; 16:51:17

OOPS !! Can you tell I don't deal in copper much ? (grin) Reading (or misreading) the wrong charts..... A penny is still (less than) a penny.
JMB1982 Penny#5551406/06/01; 16:51:52

In '82 the Mints pumped out Copper Pennies (AUNUGGETS would say Bronze which sounds even better) and phoney Pennies. You'll have to weigh each one to determine which one you have. Have your kids keep them all just to be on the safe side.
Randy (@ The Tower)Not long ago India cut import custom duties on gold by half (leaving silver as is). Now Saudia Arabia also moves to free up gold trade.#5551506/06/01; 16:52:39

Excerpt of this week's report from WGC:

"On Monday Saudi Arabia slashed customs tariffs on imports into the Kingdom from 12% to 5%. This move comes hard on the heels of a decision earlier in the month to ease trade regulations by allowing preferential tariffs on imports of goods from other Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) states and will help Saudi Arabia qualify to join the World Trade Organisation. Prior to this decision 95% of imported gold jewellery entered the Saudi market through parallel routes due to the high customs duty. It is thought that the estimated 30 tonnes of jewellery entering the Kingdom via these routes will now find its way through legal channels."

aunuggetsHill Billy Mitchell - War Time Nickels#5551606/06/01; 17:04:51

If I remember correctly, it takes about 18 of the war-time era nickels to equal a troy ounce of silver, whereas 10 "PRE"-1964 dimes would equal only approximately .72 troy ounces of silver.

Agree with you on the 40% silver JFKs..... Lots of upside potential with very little downside risk, currently selling at less than 35% premium over FACE VALUE.

US_Army(RET)HBM - Accumulation advice....#5551706/06/01; 17:24:22

Esteemed HBM...

RE: "Diversify, I say: - it is fun if not profitable. Like this: a couple of certified MS 63 or MS 64 common St. Gaudins, $1,000 face bag (junk) silver, $1,000 face 40% silver, 2,000 Silver Eagles, 1,000 BU 1921 Morgan Silver Dollars, 100 (1 oz)Gold Eagles, 100,000 pre-’82 pennies and 25,000 rounds of lead. Something strange like this will pay off some day. This is definitely investment advice. Accumulation advice - Gold Eagles only!"

Agree...I like making my "accumulation" fun also... But Am curious...would you please explain reasoning for "Gold Eagles only"



Randy (@ The Tower)Cavan Man, seeing your echoed request for item #2, let me offer this...#5551806/06/01; 17:45:21

Peter posted as follows:

---"2) You post frequent reports of Fed injections into the money supplies, at random apparently when they service your position. You do not address the quantitative totals as they may rise or fall, and a month ago I asked you if you could comment on the report of the ‘decline’ in M-3, to which there was total IMO self serving silence.---END---

To be sure, my silence is not self serving, but links and stats and thoughts that I leave behind when I DO post certainly are! <grin> Frequently, I use the forum like a cyber notepad to record the gold-related events of the day for MY future reference. In that regard, I'll not offer an apology that my efforts do not always suit the specific needs of all posters. It was never envisioned by anyone here in The Tower (or over at Centennial's "castle") that they would. I rather doubt that someone could be the cyber-librarian-on-demand for one and all, yet I am amazed at how close some have come to providing exactly that service from time to time, such as we see occasionally from ORO and Trail Guide.

To clarify, Peter has somewhat mischaracterized things in his text. It is not "Fed injections into the **money_supplies**" upon which I have kept a reasonable watch. More correctly, it is their injections into **banking_reserves** that holds my attention, and is the subject of many forum "notes". If I might perchance gain any insights in this dollar arena, I have found that they come from these daily monetary policy operations rather than from the daily size of M3.

But if it is M3 that you want, and I must deliver something of value, then here is a leg up to the filing cabinet in which you can appease your every curiosity in that regard: the Fed website (URL given above) contains a wealth of historic data.

"Snapshots" of unadjusted data for M3 over a reasonable epoch is as follows (units are billions of dollars):

May 21st: 7506
Apr 2001: 7505
Mar 2001: 7392
Feb 2001: 7297
Jan 2001: 7226

Oct 2000: 6946
Jul 2000: 6810
Apr 2000: 6782
Jan 2000: 6595

Oct 1999: 6327
Jul 1999: 6218

It grows like the corn. I therefore "watch it no more than necessary". <said with a wink to a very busy farming friend of mine>

I hope this was helpful.

Black BladeRE: MO VER MEG (06/06/01; 08:03:58MT - msg#: 55469)#5551906/06/01; 18:42:01

If you are asking about mining companies with energy supply. I am not sure as I don't invest in N. American Miners other than INCO (N) the Canadian nickel producer and Franco-Nevada (T.FN) which is a natural resource royalty company. I do have shares in HGMCY and GOLD, but they are profitable unhedged gold miners in SA, and I don't believe that they have any energy concerns. I heard from people I know in the Gold mining business in Nevada, and Copper mining in Arizona that power costs are killing these producers. NEM and ABX supposedly have some assurances from the state of Nevada that prices will be capped for their benefit, however, I heard (rumors) that the higher energy costs have already taken a toll as there apparently has been some management shakeups directly due to the energy crisis. Also NEM and ABX are extremely energy intensive as these miners are "Shake and Bake" operations (Mill and Autoclave) because they have refractory ores that require more costly processing than oxidized ore. There may be some similar issues with PDG at Getchell when they start up operations again, however, Cortez-pipeline I believe is better off due to oxidized ores. In Arizona, PD's troubles are well known, as all copper miners are extremely energy intensive. The situation must be the same with their competitor Grupo Mexico (formerly ASARCO). I personally know of several small Nevada and California operators that are closed or have severely restricted mining as a direct result of high energy costs. These problems in my opinion will get much worse. They have to unless someone(?) or some entity will subsidize these miners. At current metals prices, I simply don't see it happening. For now I am content to buy physical gold/silver and the 3 mining shares that I have mentioned. N. American miners are just way too risky right now with very few minor exceptions. Cheers!

- Black Blade

AELStock Up on Thallium, Arsenic and Indium While There's Still Time#5552006/06/01; 18:48:04

from: (?) (probably)

Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 16:18:44 -0500
From: "Rick Reese" < This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. >
Subject: It ain't just oil

A book from Youngquist arrived yesterday: Mineral Resources,
Economics, and the Environment by Stephen E. Kesler. The
audience is the clan of geologists, and it is filled with the
jargon of this clan.

On page 322 is an interesting table of minerals. They are sorted
on the basis of known reserves, divided by the annual rate of
current consumption, estimating the years of supply remaining.
The author shouts at us to make sure that we understand that
these figures are overly optimistic, because they do not reflect
the effect of a growing rate of consumption, or a declining rate
of production. He does not present us with Hubbert curves of
discovery or production for these minerals.

The mineral reserves that will be eliminated in 10 to 25 years
include: thallium, sulfur, mercury, gold, arsenic, lead, zinc,
diamond, silver, and indium.

Those that will last 25 to 50 years include: molybdenum, oil,
selenium, fluorspar, copper, uranium, bismuth, manganese,
graphite, barite, strontium, peat, tin, and cadmium.

Natural gas is in the 50 to 100 year list. For gas guzzling
North Americans, the remaining supply will be consumed much
sooner. Also in this category are: cobalt, vermiculite,
phosphate, rhenium, antimony, tantalum, ilmenite, tungsten,
zirconium, and nickel.

Lately, I've been thinking about other Hubbert curves. Things
close to peak, or beyond peak, may include global fish harvests,
fresh water production, and timber cutting. Reserves of our
precious and priceless topsoil likely peaked somewhere around
10,000 years ago (on dry land, not below water).

Take care,


AELJMB#5552106/06/01; 18:53:58

"Do you think DROOY will break a Buck and/or will the Lease
Rates break 2% before this "buying opportunity" ends?
...what does your research indicate?"

.......... hoo, boy! My "research" in that area is wholly
inadequate, sorry. I am not much of a paper player, and
these little squiggles to and fro while the sham "market"
survives do not interest me much. Just a settin' and a
waitin' for the nuclear explosion...... ;-)

turkey hunter@Christian My two cents#5552206/06/01; 19:13:57

Have you ever thought about growing asparagus? If your soil is right it can yeild $3000-$4000 per acre if done right. People really buy it in the Spring if it is fresh. :)
Black BladeRE: Rockgrabber (06/06/01; 16:15:07MT - msg#: 55507)#5552306/06/01; 19:16:51

Short History Lesson - Green Gold, Greed, and Politics

Your right about DuPont and the hemp legislation. It was the combined efforts of Harry DuPont (of DuPont Chemical), William Randolph Hearst, and Harry J. Anslinger (former head of the Dept. of Prohibition - which later became the ATF). These principals had special interests in making hemp illegal. Harry DuPont as you said, had an interest as DuPont Chemical had the chemical bleaching process for wood pulp in the paper making process, William R. Hearst had extensive timber holdings and a newspaper conglomerate (he also made up the term "Marijuana" for hemp - it sounds foreign and therefore evil), and Harry Anslinger who headed the Dept. of Prohibition that was later converted into the ATF - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms when the 18th amendment was repealed. Due to political, and apparently monetary payoffs hemp was made illegal to benefit the corporate financial interests of Hearst and DuPont. Anslinger, famous for the government sponsored campy cult-classic film "Reefer Madness," apparently used this issue as a political stepping stone. All this occurred although there never was a social problem associated with the abuse of cannabis. It was purely economic as hemp manufactured paper was more durable, required no chemical bleaching, was easily recycled, and was a renewable resource with rapid growth requiring less land. Of course the continued use of hemp (also useful as a textile, source of high quality oil, etc.) would have meant less profit for Hearst and DuPont. It had very little to do with the evil drug destroying the morals of the youth of America as portrayed. That is the short version.

- Black Blade

PragmaticDeflation/inflation#5552406/06/01; 19:24:27

As TQ (from another time and another forum) and I have exponded on since last Fall, commodities do not show much inflation. In fact more deflation than anything else! Point is that global economies are, and have been, contracting at a higher rate than most anyone seems to recognize. Not so easy to find a commodity bull.. outside $ and maybe soybean meal, and that is thin pickings. Houston real estate? Yea, homes are appreciating because of the local energy and technology driven economy but an exception to the contraction, I think. Want to solve the energy problem? At least on a cyclical basis put the breaks on world economies.

Hey Moutaingold! You called that one.. strong $ caused by weak # and Euro; but you forgot Yen and Swiss Franc! Nothing get's past you MG:)

Am honored to be a humble part of this forum but it is coming up way short on sex appeal! Where are the female posters to flirt with!!!! Where are you when I need you Maplegirl:(

Gee, hope I am not being too frivolous.

MoutainGoldGold is Leading Inflation Indicator.... It Will Tell Us When to Expect Inflation!#5552506/06/01; 19:41:12

Inflation is being built NOW for 2003 to 2005 and then another spike in 2010. Inflation has a very predictable 30 year cycle top to top....1973 to 1975,1980. There is no general inflationary pressure now.

This will change as the massive money creation works its way through the system. Couple this with USDollar decline and a 8% to 15% inflation rate is likely. Could go to hyper inflation. I give it a 20% probability.

Gold will start to move roughly 18 months before the "sweet" spot of inflation is visible. We are close to that move.

Deflation is not likely. The FED will go to 0.25% FED Funds rate to counter deflation. They will bailout everybody they can. IMHO Later...

Boy the Lakers look like the NASDAQ at 5000!!!

PS Long Canadian Dollar and no Swiss Franc position.
Long AEM, GLG and PDG, Silver and Gold bullion...wish I could buy 100k Silver.....say did you make your fortune back in the O's.....Silver, my boy Silver!!!

Hill Billy MitchellUS_Army(RET @ # 55517#5552606/06/01; 19:47:58


Re: my post # 55510

As for accumulation (Gold Eagles Only) I have to admit that I sort of had my tongue in my cheek when I made that statement. I do not have scientific thoughts to support it. It is just my approach. Let me say this, if I lived in Canada, I would probably prefer Gold Maple Leafs and if I lived anywhere else in the world other the U.S. or Canada, I would probably have said Krugerrands.

Certain things are unique about the Gold Eagles for U.S. citizens.

1)They are by congressional decree, legally classified as numismatic coins.
2)Except during times of high volatility in POG, the premium, though higher than the Kruggerrand, tends to be very reasonable and very stable.
3)It is my opinion that they are now and will continue to be the most liquid of all near bullion in the U.S., and any lack of liquidity in the future would only arise from the possibility of their someday becoming de facto numismatic coins, a situation, should it arise, would result in a tradeoff of higher value for a small reduction in liquidity.
4)Remember, I am talking accumulation here, which by my definition, means not to be sold off but to be passed on to my heirs. The only exchange I could contemplate for myself would be that of delivery from certain death and or imprisonment, i.e. passage from Nazi Germany to a safe haven. (The trading of one safe haven for another). If one's definition of accumulation were different from my definition then more speculation would be in order in the form of numismatic gold, so-called double play. I would not criticize anyone's choice in that direction, just as long as they have the right motivations. The point is that we are in a temporary situation whereby we can accumulate with minimal downside risk. I just have a hard time paying twice as much and more for less than one ounce of gold. There are many arguments for Pre-33 US gold and I will not take exception to those arguments at this time; however, I reserve the right to address certain disagreements with Numismatic Gold at some point in the future, whenever I get my ducks in a row. I have misplaced the best document I have ever seen arguing against the point that so-called protection from confiscation of Pre-33 US Gold has some abiding value over Gold Eagles. I have been looking for the document off and on for several months. When I locate the document, I will post it on this forum. It will, I think, generate enough real and honorable discussion on this forum, to settle in most minds the question about the "hoped for" advantages of confiscation avoidance expected by the holding of Pre-33 Gold as opposed to U.S. Gold Eagles. Of course you can tell which way I lean, else, I would not step forward with the accumulation preference of Gold Eagles.

Very respectfully,


PS: The salutation in your post did not go unnoticed. I was deeply honored by it.

Old YellerDead calm:gold price and "official "lease rates#5552706/06/01; 20:09:42

It would appear that after a brief episode of running roughshod through the hallways of the Great World Monetary System,all the while observing none of the rules of decorum and protocol;our true and honest friend,gold,has been effectively subdued.Perhaps a more fitting description would be lobotomized'strapped to a gurney and relegated to the Monetary Recovery Center,where it must re-learn it's proper role in the grand scheme.

One of these days a unspoken,powerful ally of our friend will hurl an unstoppable object through the bars of suppression and truly set our friend free.

Cuckoo's Nest II,coming soon,we hope.

PragmaticHey MG!#5552806/06/01; 20:11:33

Good shot Moutaingold! But when you go golfing in that little mountain town, watch out for the guys with ten gallon hats! They are Texan bandidos looking to rape and pillage your county! Tell the local constable about them but be sure and draw picture of their hats, repeat yourself twice and above all make sure they are looking at your lips. Otherwise it will take them MONTHS to figure out what is going on:(

Nice to engage you mi amigo.

Hill Billy Mitchellaunuggets # 55516#5552906/06/01; 20:15:22


Thanks for that information. It confirms my suspicions all along. When the local coin dealer said that 20 wartime nickels are worth more than 10 post-64 dimes, he meant, "20 wartime nickels are worth more than 10 pre-65 dimes. Those 40% Kennedys sure do look good at 65 cents or less per coin, don't they?

Very respectfully,


PS: Wartime nickels and circulated 40% Kennedys only make sense as melt supply when spot goes up and away, don't you think. I just cannot find myself convincing very many people as to the value of these coins just to get them to buy them from me. The efforts of educating a prospective buyer would be lost, it seems, due to the shadow cast on the sellers motives. In other words we would have a liquidity problem were it not for the established melt value vs. current spot at the time of liquidation.

Black BladeCalifornia's Economy at Risk#5553006/06/01; 20:21:39

California's Economy Is at Risk As Power Crunch Continues


About half of Southern California Edison's 4.3 million residential and commercial customers and two-thirds of the 4.8 million served by Pacific Gas & Electric will see rate increases that average around 37 percent. Agricultural customers will pay 15 to 20 percent more under the plan. Small businesses say they will adjust to the higher electric bills, but can't absorb much more in the way of increased energy costs.

Black Blade: Looks more grim each passing day. The agricultural problems associated with higher energy costs could kill the industry, or at least put an end to many family farms. The California energy crisis could very well be a category killer as far as agribusiness is concerned. Food costs have already risen as much as 50% in some areas so far this year. The question is how much pricing control is left in the agribusiness?

Cavan ManRandy#5553106/06/01; 20:32:28

Although I am a much dimmer bulb than most, I am pleased to know that I can read and understand the same tea leaves as you. I'll leave the debating here to you as you like it. Thanks.
Cavan ManBlack Blade#5553206/06/01; 20:34:33

We've had no CA grapes here in the MW to date. That's a bit unusual. Perhaps this condition is symptomatic?
aunuggetsHill Billy Mitchell - On Gold Eagles#5553306/06/01; 20:39:17


I think you already covered some very good points concerning (modern bullion) U.S. Gold Eagles in favor of some of the heavily touted pre-1933 gold coins:

"Certain things are unique about the Gold Eagles for U.S. citizens.

1)They are by congressional decree, legally classified as numismatic coins.

2)Except during times of high volatility in POG, the premium, though higher than the Kruggerrand, tends to be very reasonable and very stable.

3)It is my opinion that they are now and will continue to be the most liquid of all near bullion in the U.S., and any lack of liquidity in the future would only arise from the possibility of their someday becoming de facto numismatic coins, a situation, should it arise, would result in a tradeoff of higher value for a small reduction in liquidity.

4)Remember, I am talking accumulation here, which by my definition, means not to be sold off but to be passed on to my heirs. The only exchange I could contemplate for myself would be that of delivery from certain death and or imprisonment, i.e. passage from Nazi Germany to a safe haven. (The trading of one safe haven for another)."

" settle in most minds the question about the "hoped for" advantages of confiscation avoidance expected by the holding of Pre-33 Gold as opposed to U.S. Gold Eagles......", I think you have to look at the fact that bullion gold eagles ARE declared numismatic by the U.S.
Government, and the fact that they sell for many multiples of their "face value", by definition the meaning of "numismatic" coins.

As you infer, the farther you get from a base commodity value of any material or "item", the greater the degree of "relative liquidity" involved, at least in MOST cases.

I believe I've read the material you are referring to concerning pre-1933 numismatic gold vs. modern bullion gold, but don't recall the source.

In any case, there is nothing in the end that will prevent the confiscation of ANY gold if those who make the rules decide to change those rules on a whim. Just because "numismatic" gold was "exempt" from confiscation in the past as many claim (it actually was not until sometime in the 1950s if I recall - leaving a questionable void of several years in the mean time), doesn't necessarily mean the same "rules" will apply in the future. If they can make 'em, they can certainly change 'em !!

One of the arguements of the 1933 dated St. Gaudens double eagle under scrutiny by the Secret Service (et al) in recent years as being "illegal" was that gold coins were "illegal" to hold from Roosevelt's 1933 grab until the "clarification" of the law in 195?.... If that were the case, then ALL gold coins made prior to the clarification would or could be considered "contraband". Otherwise how could they have been held "legally" during the period of 1933 - 195?..... and if not legal then, how could they exist "legally" now ? Same old "spin" on government edict.....

Like all laws, there were "loopholes", and like all laws, there will be "loopholes" in any future confiscation attempts.

Black BladeCalifornia Electricity-Supply Forecast for June Worsens#5553406/06/01; 20:42:36


Jun. 5--An electricity supply forecast for gloom in June was based on overly optimistic assumptions about how many plants would be off-line. The gloomy prediction was based on a historic average of 2,500 megawatts from power plants being unavailable because of maintenance or breakdowns. In fact, plants producing 8,500 megawatts were off-line Friday, and that figure is not expected to get down to 3,000 megawatts until the end of June. Whether the 6,000 megawatt difference will translate into more blackouts will depend on the weather and the availability of power from other states.

Black Blade: More Grim News - Moderate temperatures have helped, however, the summer season hasn't really begun yet. The California economy is at risk with higher energy costs and the potential loss of manufacturing capacity due to potential (very likely) rolling blackouts. And to think that the recent heat wave saved California by melting the low snowpack providing short term relief in the form of a quick dose of hydroelectric power. It also means that there will be less hydro power this summer.

aunuggetsHill Billy Mitchell - Silver Coin Liquidity#5553506/06/01; 20:57:51

I think your comment that "......we would have a liquidity problem were it not for the established melt value vs. current spot at the time of liquidation" pretty much explains my own feelings concerning such coins as the 40% JFK halves.

Supposing a cost basis at your mentioned 65 cents per coin, you can figure an unlimited upside potential (depending on just how close to the moon silver does eventually fly), while at the same time, having an absolute risk factor of 15 cents per coin, or 30%.

After all, we can always spend 'em at the corner market if all else fails....... (grin)

Black BladeGreenspan's Empty Words on Inflation#5553606/06/01; 21:05:25


The problem in contemporary economics, at least on Wall Street, is that no one concentrates enough on relative prices. An economy can slow primarily because one sector has been hit -- tech, in this case -- but if other sectors are experiencing a bottleneck in the supply of labor, materials and capital, inflation can still rise. Because too little was invested in energy production in the '90s, prices in that sector are soaring. And something similar can be seen in health care and housing.

However, if the Fed prints money so that people can pay for higher-priced items, including energy, the economy doesn't have to make a big adjustment -- for the moment. Paul Kasriel, chief economist at Northern Trust, gives a simple illustration of this point. Say an agricultural economy experiences a drought and production falls off. The central bank increases money supply. But the economy needs water to make the corn grow, not money. Instead, more money simply means higher prices. And today, the Fed can't supply natural gas, gasoline, new drug therapies, residential housing, or anything else that is in short supply. All it has to offer is paper money. "This increase in money supply is a recipe for inflation," Kasriel says.

Black Blade: DITTO! Good article, well worth reading. Short and sweet - to the point!

BTW, Cavan Man - I kinda miss Concord grapes, haven't had those for years.

Black BladePeople are borrowing to maintain lifestyles #5553706/06/01; 21:20:52

Debt could swallow up consumer, say experts


The rising tide of consumer debt could become a torrent that drowns the entire economy, some economists warn. With industry already in a slump, the only thing that has kept the nation out of recession has been the willingness of consumers to dig into their pockets and buy. That spending has been fueled by an ever-increasing use of credit. Now, though, as the economy swoons, jobs are disappearing, income growth is slowing and the personal savings rate is shrinking. With 6.6 trillion in consumer debt outstanding, the American shopper is literally in danger of maxing out. That could knock out the final prop holding up the economy.

Black Blade: Some of us here have discussed this in the past. Investors are tapped out. Who is left to "float" the market? Read this article and you see why I say get out of debt if at all possible. Definitely a good time to accumulate PMs as the economic "Big Picture" deteriorates more rapidly.

Also, some interesting news on the NG front that I might post this weekend if time permits. NG prices are set to surge again as a number of factors converge. Stay tuned.

Al FulchinoHBM and Aunuggets#5553806/06/01; 21:31:18

part of your chat:


I think you already covered some very good points concerning (modern bullion) U.S. Gold Eagles in favor of some of the heavily touted pre-1933 gold coins:

"Certain things are unique about the Gold Eagles for U.S. citizens.

1)They are by congressional decree, legally classified as numismatic coins.

me: can you tell me where I could see this for myself? I was not aware of this and was always told that only pre- 1933 were thought of as numismatic and likely to be protected from confiscation. I do believe you both, but I would like to do my own due diligence, just to satisfy myself that I spent the time to see for myself. Thank you in advance.

Black BladeForbes Body Count Update#5553906/06/01; 22:19:34;$sessionid$DNSW0BYAAABILQFIAGWCFFI

More layoffs with each passing day. Is this the sign of a healthy economy? Hmmm....
Hill Billy Mitchellaunuggets @ # 55533#5554006/06/01; 22:27:37


I would like to comment upon two of your points:

You say, " I think you have to look at the fact that bullion gold eagles ARE declared numismatic by the U.S. Government, and the fact that they sell for many multiples of their "face value", by definition the meaning of "numismatic" coins." End of your quote

My comment:

I am not sure what you are referring to as per the second half of that statement. As best as I can recall, there was an official ruling deeming as numismatic those coins that attain a market value in excess of 115% of the market value of the metal content. I do not recall any definition as to the relationship of the selling price of a coin to its face (legal tender) value having been used in the determination of numismatic status. Of course I am being technical and what you say would apply anyway.

You say, "In any case, there is nothing in the end that will prevent the confiscation of ANY gold if those who make the rules decide to change those rules on a whim. Just because "numismatic" gold was "exempt" from confiscation in the past as many claim (it actually was not until sometime in the 1950s if I recall - leaving a questionable void of several years in the mean time), doesn't necessarily mean the same "rules" will apply in the future. If they can make 'em, they can certainly change 'em !!"

My comment:

Amen, brother Ben!!!!!!! What you say has been crystal clear to me for a long, long time. I am always in doubt as to the motive of those who would encourage others to buy from them by misleading them into thinking that they have a better chance of non-confiscation just by buying pre-1933 gold coins. I would think that a law passed by both houses of congress declaring that certain coins, i.e. US Gold Eagles, to be defined as numismatic to have a much better chance of passing muster than those classified by official proclamation (pre-1933 gold) with the required premium of 15% over metal content price. As you have said. It doesn't matter. A totalitarian government can change the rules any time it wants without so much as a whimper by its subjects.

Very respectfully,


Hill Billy MitchellAl Fulchino @ # 55538#5554106/06/01; 22:35:34

Al Fulchino @ # 55538
me: can you tell me where I could see this for myself? I was not aware of this and was always told that only pre- 1933 were thought of as numismatic and likely to be protected from confiscation. I do believe you both, but I would like to do my own due diligence, just to satisfy myself that I spent the time to see for myself. Thank you in advance


I am out of town at the present time. I will find the source for the congressional definition for Gold Eagles when I get back to my office in a few days. It comes straight out of the legal wording in the 1985 law authorizing the minting of the coins. Maybe someone will beat me to the punch and save me the trouble. If not I will provide you with the answer. On my word of honor this is not a rumor sort of thing. Of course as we have already stated if gives us no guarantee that congress will not change the rules at any moment it might be pleased to do so.

Very respectfully,


USAGOLDHillBilly. . .#5554206/06/01; 22:43:57

You do not pay double the gold price for pre-1933 gold coins unless you want to. The entry level ;pre-1933 European coins run between 14% and 20% over the gold price -- a small price to pay in my estimation for the extra layer of protection. One ounce bullion coins run 5% to 6% over the gold price, and the quarter ounce coins run in the 10% to 12% range.

If you are looking for the definitive text on pre-1933 gold coins and confiscation I would suggest

"How You Can Survive a Potential Gold Confiscation"
by George R. Cooper, J.D. and Michael J. Kosares

We would be happy to forward a copy to you. It is the product of extensive research.

It is absurd to believe that something issued as bullion coins and distributed to the tune of millions of ounces in the United States at bullion prices (and not likely to accrue any numismatic value anytime soon) would not be subject to confiscation if the government decides to put a stop to the flow of gold as it did in 1933. What you must attempt to guesstimate is what the government will do in the case of another confiscation in the future. Any laws on the books right now may or may not necessarily affect the law if the monetary system is in dire straits and the government is forced to confiscate in order to keep the populace from emptying the banks. In the case of pre-1933 gold coins they have already enjoyed a long history and lengthy precedent as collectors' items. If you believe that Eagles are numismatic items, I believe you will get your chance to prove that in court if there ever is a confiscation because I believe that is precisely what they will take. That is your choice, but I believe you are upping your risk. Nothing in this regard is etched in stone. Your investment decision is relegated to probabilities, not certainties and each investor is going to have to make choices.

In 1933, numismatic gold (which was defined as any gold coin minted before 1933) was exempted because it didn't threaten the government's objective of keeping the masses in the currency. Further precedent susequently further solidified the notion that pre-1933 gold coins were considered collectors' items and exempt from government The enforcement problem was another problem for the government. There were hundreds of coins of already established scarcity and rarity that would have been turned in and melted down at $20.67 per ounce had the exemption order not been issued. Under the constitution (Fifth amendment), we still have the protection from government confiscation "without just compensation." The Roosevelt administration feared an avalanche of law suits from aggrieved individuals who had their collector coins melted by the government, so they decided that it would be easier just to let it go. And let's face it, the more important objective was to stanch the flow of big money and bullion -- hence the confiscation and clamp down in the first place.

As you might imagine, this is a complicated issue and I can't reduce a nearly 50 page monograph on the subject including support documents to a few paragraphs. For someone to suggest though that the government would somehow allow bullion to circulate when bullion has been confiscated is preposterous and at cross-purposes with the objectives of a confiscation, i.e., currency controls, protection of the banking system, etc.

The best protection, though not foolproof, is pre-1933 European gold coins and for the extra 8% to 15% over the gold price well worth the price -- especially at these artificially suppressed prices. To me it is rather foolish, if you believe a confiscation possible or probable, to save the 10% or so but expose yourself to a much more serious problem down the road -- being separated from your gold at the time you need it the most. With your gold holdings, I would not advise being penny wise but pound foolish. (I might add at this point that in 1968 as the London Gold Pool was breaking down and investors in the United States had a heightened interest in gold as a monetary hedge, the German 20 mark coins that so many of our clientele have purchased sold at 75% over the gold value; in 1971 just before Nixon devalued the dollar and shut the gold window, they sold for 175% over the gold price. Few people know that between 1933 when gold was confiscated and 1975 when gold was re-legalized pre-1933 gold coins traded freely in the United States.)

Having said all that, if you believe, or any investor believes, that a confiscation is improbable or impossible, he is better off in the bullion coins and saving the extra cost. If you are half and half on the concept, make your holdings half and half. If you believe, as I do, that confiscation is a strong possibility or even a probability, the extra cost, as I have said, is a small price to pay. My own gold holdings are primarily pre-1933 if that means anything to any of our readers.

JCTexRandy (@ The Tower) (06/06/01; 17:45:21MT - msg#: 55518)#5554306/06/01; 22:44:45

As I said to Black Blade, I say to you: Thank you. Those posts of yours are most helpful. Besides that I get depressed just going to the FRB site. Seeing it come from you makes it somewhat more bearable [no pun intended].
Hill Billy MitchellRandy (@ The Tower @ # 55518#5554406/06/01; 23:11:53


I have always considered your posts regarding the Fed injections to be a "checking the pulse and blood pressure" sort of thing. I for one have always appreciated the information and do wish you would continue. When this sort of information is available for us, it saves time for us to dig into other areas. As for your motives, I believe that you deserve the benefit of the doubt. Because of your work in this area we are able to share what we find in other areas. We are all in this together.

If I might suggest, you sometimes come on a little authoritatively in some of your posts and we libertarian animals get all riled up. I think I know where Cavan Man and Peter are coming from. Certain animals just do not cotton too highly to a cage.

Very respectfully,


Hill Billy MitchellUSAGOLD @ # 55542#5554506/06/01; 23:51:58

Good Sir

I do have in my office a copy of "How You Can Survive a Potential Gold Confiscation" by George R. Cooper, J.D. and Michael J. Kosares; however, I do not consider it to be the definitive text on the matter.

I will re-read your post to me and locate the information which takes a strong and well thought out position opposite that of yours.

I will study your suggestions concerning the cost of holding pre-1933. My response will of necessity be at a future date due to time constraints. I do hope that you will not think that I am just putting you off. If you change my mind about the pre-1933 confiscation matter, you will probably have a pile of sales on your hands at the prices which you state. The back and forth on this may be a better way to get your point across than the "definitive" text to which you refer, and the resulting increase in the volume of sales in this area of your market will be significant. I am not adverse to having my mind changed.

Very respectfully,


PS: Perhaps, I should check the price of MS 63 and MS 64 St. Gaudins coins and be more specific in my posts. The last time I checked was when POG was higher than today (circa pre-Y2K). You speak of non-certified coins, maybe, and that is fair enough to call my statement(double the price) into question.

RockgrabberSir Black Blade#5554606/07/01; 00:05:47

I love to research truth. Thanks for speaking up for Hemp. Amazing storing. Sort of "(kind)" of goes hand in hand with the gold thingy (Goverment Manipulation). Buggers just cant live up to the good ol truth!!!!! (((How can you, when you have hid it all.))) GGGOOOOOO OOOPPEECCC!!! hahhahahaha
IronHeadRockgrabber and Black Blade#555476/7/01; 01:48:16

On your subject of green gold, you might enjoy the above link with comments by some of the worlds foremost putting-ticians. Perhaps these are the folks we need to address with respect to the gold/economy manipulation; they seem a little more free and honest thinking than the usual cast of characters.

Appearing off topic to many - My feelings are that many in our world, are victimized by those that have the most to profit from other's villification. Need I mention those that desire a sound money environment, within the realm of gold and silver, ala the ole rag - the "Constitution". Wasn't that rag printed on fiber of green gold?


Belgian@ cb2 (WGC)#555486/7/01; 02:14:26

#55504 : After having read "Gold to underpin emerging market currencies" (MWB), I concluded that this suggestion has nothing to do with re-valuation of Gold but much more with opening another box with selfish and shortsighted opportunities, serving the short term policies of specific goldproducers. Inspiring the following : let us (AU) do the mining for these poor countries and pay back with their gold that we mined ? Or something like that.

And how can you possibly strengthen a debt loaded, vaporizing currency with mining more gold and subsequently depressing its price ?

If South African B.Godsell is so concerned about dramatic weakening currencies and underpinning gold aid...why isn't he applying this idea in his own county in the first place ?
A stronger Rand would cut goldproduction immediately.

IMVHO, there is only one solution to get Gold back where it belongs and that is "Permanent Accumulation" of physical gold, by motivated private Gold-Holders. When a higher pricing of Gold "signals" its Value, all theories about gold and intrinsic force, will emerge in the public opinion, again, as if they were just (re)invented. It is this kind of glowing gold-activism that is productive and efficient. My way of supporting GATA is just in doing what I say, and keep on accumulating as modest as it is.

And I do have a lot of understanding for peoples sceptisim towards Gold. I went trough it myself. But thanks to the grandioze education on this Forum...I've changed my attitude dramatically and most probably, for ever ! Thank you CPM.

NetkingLeigh / Silver #5554906/07/01; 02:58:48

Lady Leigh(55486)
***You Posted:"Netking, in a silver crisis, what do you think the chances are of silver-consuming photo film being outlawed?"
>>> Leigh, very little chance of this I believe(IMHO).In the USA no, PRC certainly not. World industrial demand, for tens of thousands of small but high volume uses, is inelastic and price insensitive. For example a typical roll of film uses about 1/100 oz of silver. So, a very small amount is actually used in film yet it is vital, no silver means no film. Because most end products use such a small amount per unit produced that the cost of silver per unit is a small percentage of the total cost. However, it is indispensable regardless of its price. The Ag shortage when it kicks into manifestation to the physical commodity pricing structure will be causing a rationing facilitation in itself, it will also cause "some" inventory to come out of "hiding", but not much. Back in 1980's boom we experienced this (when silver went to $52.50/Oz, over $102/Oz in todays dollars when inventory back then was healthy), people were lining up with the family silverware,. . . "Honey! it may have been Ma in laws wedding present, but just think what we'll get for this stuff!<grin>". I will expect USA "Blue Chips" who are heavy users to be looked after with preferential supply allocation. Silver can go to $8, 12, 18, 26, 52, 125...etc etc.(Forbes Magazine published an article recently called " Gold at $2500 per ounce, IF silver goes for the short term to 1/10th POS/POG ratio to restore upground supply then hello to $250/Oz). Items will still be manufactured, life will still go on, prices (of the finished items) may rise some to reflect the increased costs, but they'll still be made. There are over 1,000 uses for silver currently and it's still growing as we speak. The hard part is going to be getting supply for the many users, the second part is paying for it, the former is the challenge NOT the latter. There was a time (briefly in history) where Ag was thought of as more valuable than Au, this may happen again briefly, who knows, I don't, but nothing is impossible. Did not Paul said at the gate beautiful: "SILVER and gold have I none. . ."

***You posted: "It would be VERY hard to confiscate silver, I think. Can you imagine troopers going from house to house rounding up people's sterling sets and raiding sock drawers?"
>>> Leigh, You're right with what you say. However we need to see what happened with this in the past. Remember when Gold was confiscated in the past?. . .not that long ago right. A law can be passed on this at the right time, failure to comply would have a predictable outcome, and there are reasonably good change of ownership records around in some cases. Moonshine, Gold, Silver, once upon a time Coffee! God forbid what'd Sir Peter Asher do <grin>. As Ted B. says: Silver will eventually be rationed. Not necessarily by government, but by the free market's application of extremely high prices. What is rationing? A dictionary defines it as an equitable apportionment of something in short supply. But, there is rationing and there is severe rationing. From Economics 101 we know that the law of supply and demand balances itself through price. This is the cornerstone of our free market system. Price changes stimulate or curtail demand. High prices ration supply. Have a read of for more on this. regards NetKing

NetkingLeigh#555506/7/01; 03:31:11

My previous post re:"Silver and gold.."(as you know)should have read Peter at the end of the first paragraph(Act3:6).
NetkingThe Silver Challenge - Butler #555516/7/01; 03:45:29

Ted Butler's latest. Snippits:(If you don't own silver, then you don't clearly understand these facts).

". . . As soon as leasing ends, which it must, the silver manipulation is over. Then the price will soar. But when will that be, I am often asked. And, as I always answer, I don't know when, but I do know how. When is unknowable. How is knowable – big and violently. Because we know how and not when, concentrate on how. What I mean is, make sure you're positioned now, because when the days comes, if you're not in, you probably will never get in. The price can explode and move up so fast you're left behind. . ."

". . . Whenever a market is artificially suppressed a powerful force builds up that will eventually rectify the imbalance and drive up the price. Take government price controls as an example. Once they are lifted the price of the controlled item soars upward. We saw that with gold in the 1960's and 1970's and with numerous products at the end of the Second World War. This silver price suppression is worse. A huge chunk of the available supply has been used up and erased at an artificially low price depleting the supply. At the same time the lack of a proper higher market price has lessened silver production, discouraged substitutes and made reliance on cheap silver that much greater. Silver has been held down by people selling silver they don't own outside the laws of supply and demand, with no regard to price. It's embarrassingly kooky. When it backfires, as it must, the participants will be crushed by market forces that will set the true price at much higher levels. If you don't own silver, then you don't clearly understand these facts. Because once you truly comprehend the silver predicament you see an opportunity unprecedented in history for violent price action to the upside. . ."

BelgianInterest Rates (IR) and Gold (G)#555526/7/01; 05:44:52

Both are "ar-ti-fi-cially" Low. Both do "NOT" reflect the "intrinsics" of the global state of the economy and the currencies in particular. Very easy to understand for all of us (non economic geniusses) if tomorrow you are asked to give credit to someone or are forced to sell physical gold for whatever reason.
IRs are hiding debt ! POG is hiding permanent depreciation.
Both succeed in fooling the masses for quite a long time now. I remain convinced that IR-changes are affecting economic activity very, very, very little.Genuine Expansion is at its maximum with "stable" IRs ! To be compared with the degree of job-security and profitability-regularity.

IRs + G are masking and "Protecting" , bad debt and increasing depreciation through Low price (%+POG) management. The collectivity succeeded in organising a talkie talkie economy. As in politics, the media are the main collaboraters. This ongoing process is extremely difficult to discover. It takes a hell of a lot of courage to make such a statement with high degree of certainty. Because, "who are we" after all ?

Growth with stable IRs is the one and only kind of growth that is genuine and productive (expansive). All other kinds of growth have a certain degree of artificiallity and provoques imbalences that are never sustainable. The reason why this doesn't seem to be possible is that passionate desire for fast development and competitive dominance.
They want it all and they want it now ! Simplified translation.

Lowering IRs is an attempt to slow down the speed of increasing debt-growth. Oxygen (not air) for consumed goods and services that need to be repaid. All Debt is paralytic at the present degree ! Individually, Officially and for the majority of entreprises as well. Past claims about growth and expansion were fake. History will give evidence of this later. It is not too little too late but rather too much too fast. Japan (second worldpower), remains the best example of the amount of "artificiality" that has been build into a super fast quasi expansion. It still is a dead end street to me.

The present debt situation is such that a (normal) slow down in economic expansion is "NOT" permitted. It is a glass house overcultivated plant. A winter with some declining heat, is guarantee for collapse. Europ is forced again to lower its IRs. Unemployment and above all "artificial" employment or temporarely (insecure) employment are the ingredients for collapse. With slowing growth and declining tax revenues, the debt burden cannot be serviced anymore.

The Asian region is discussing the "Protectionism" spectre.
When and where did we heard that before ? (1929 ?)
Capital expenditure in Japan is dramatically down and affects GDP. Hyperconcentration (mergers and acquisitions) + the net-folly caused the delay for the day of reckoning.
Circus acts with IRs and Gold, distracted an over-enthousiastic public.

Have a nice and peacefull day.

Cavan ManUnderstanding the Euro?#555536/7/01; 06:13:11

Trouble brewing in Ireland. Blair moving post haste towards a rererendum leaving Hague et al in the dust (Hague not to be trusted anyway a "Maggie" NOT).
Black BladeIronhead and Rockgrabber, All - Drug Laws, Confiscation, and Physical Assets.#555546/7/01; 06:16:03

It is interesting that we see these posts about Green Gold, confiscation, etc. The "War on Drugs" is the perfect scam. The protections and rights laid out in the US constitution is meaningless because of laws regarding confiscation in the cause of fighting inanimate objects and drugs. BTW, your right Ironhead, the original copies of the US Constitution were written on hemp paper. Hemp was also grown at Mt. Vernon by George Washington, and at Monticello by Thomas Jefferson, but I digress. The point is we now have the "Seizure and Forfeiture Act" (signed into law by Daddy Bush) where anything of value can be confiscated (stolen) by law enforcement without cause as the US Supreme Court deemed that property has no rights. Yeah, I know it sounds absurd doesn't it? In Louisiana for example there are specks on a map where this theft is an industry where police routinely use traffic stops to steal cars, cash, jewelry, etc. by claiming that one must prove that the items were not purchased with proceeds from illegal activity. However, this theft happens all the time and to recover these stolen funds, it would require one with substantial means to fight the officially sanctioned theft. Even so, it is more costly to fight the confiscation than to just let it go. Some politicians have vowed to fight for repeal of this law (I'm not holding my breath), while others such as Orrin Hatch (R-UT) continue to favor this law. Personally, I don't see any politician working to give up any government power. Both conservatives and liberals are equally guilty here. This brings me to the next question. How safe is any gold investment from confiscation? My physical is extremely well hidden so I tend to not worry that much about it. I guess it is a matter of degree perhaps where pre-33 numismatic coin is safest and bullion is least safe from confiscation. We do live under an increasingly oppressive government. I guess it's "for the children" and that makes it OK to lose constitutional rights and individual liberty somehow. Comments anyone? I gotta run - will check in tonight. Cheers!

- Black Blade

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tapeon gold coins and confiscation#555556/7/01; 07:02:24

Really enjoy the depth of the coins and confiscation topic, it is long overdue. IMO the issue of confiscation regarding the gold eagle has not been adequately addressed. There are two gold eagles, one numismatic, one bullion.

The normal gold eagle selling for 6% or so above spot is bullion. Sure you can collect it, you can collect most anything, yet you are still collecting bullion. I believe this gold eagle was born to let Uncle Sam sell his $42/oz Au for considerably more $$$ to the same people he has no fear of confiscating it from.

The numismatic gold eagle is the "PROOF" coin. It sells new for at least 100% above spot. Special dies, additional striking and polishing of dies, and considerably less produced- make the case for numismaticity for a modern non circulating gold coin. To those who wish to pay Uncle Sam this high a premium for a "gold eagle", there is little concern of confiscation-since the price paid is a de facto confiscation (at least of the green stuff).

I find the pre-33 european argument somewhat intriguing but not convincing. Collectable coins? Absolutely! But as pointed out before will Uncle Sam recognize their numismatic status? There are individual year/mint combinations that are valued at multiples of their melt value, yet most sell for premiums of less than 15% over melt value.

The IRS(?) in the early '80s tipped their hand on Uncle Sams view of numismatic coins- any coin that is not commonly available for at least 15% or more over its melt value- is considered bullion. As far as I know this is not "law", yet it gives insight into the mindset of those who will make the rules.

IMHO Uncle Sam will take care of his deep pocket friends and their private property by writing the confiscation law for their benefit. It is not the "walking in the foot steps of giants" that is operative here. Instead I see it as "being one of the family" if you will, certainly a poor relation, but one of the family nonetheless as far as collecting numismatic gold is concerned. That is why I prefer common date pre-33 US gold pieces, raw (not slabbed!) in as good a condition as one can afford. Even our giant relations cannot complete a collection without the common dates.


1. I think the post was by aunuggets(?) recently about the coin collecting and the grading services? That post is required reading for anyone considering numismatic coins.

2. The most liquid of any gold coin is a raw, uncirculated common date US Double eagle with good eye appeal. At least among those of us who "collect".

3. "Hoarding" bullion and "Collecting" numismatic coins are not the same.

LeighSLATT, megatron#555566/7/01; 07:27:56

Welcome back, SLATT!

Megatron, you are a guy to be envied.

Old YellerBelgian;#55548#555576/7/01; 07:48:51

Your thoughts on Godsell's latest "proposals",really hit the mark.The veneer of spin on these statements is laughable.It's pretty obvious that these statements and proposals for a new advertising campaign are lame diversions to implementing the true objectives.
HenriConfiscation#555586/7/01; 07:50:54

It seems to me that because gold is considered "just a commodity", that it would be easier to confiscate it now than it was the last time. Back then it was peoples "Money" that was being it would just be a certain "thing" the govt would need in time of crisis.
RockgrabberMid-East war coming soon#555596/7/01; 08:00:21

These fine leaders are going to need an exuse for this financial mess. I am sure they have many, but a Mid-East conflict would sure be great for them. They can blame the gold, and inflation, dollar fall on a war. Its been floating out there for some time.
Jon(No Subject)#5556006/07/01; 08:15:34

Msg to Black Blade: Thoroughly enjoy your meaningful comments. Am particularly looking forward to your thoughts on NG prices which you may post this weekend.
Incidentally, look at recent press release by Golconda Resources. They may be on verge of palladium / platinum discovery. What do you think?

Randy (@ The Tower)Changing faces...#5556106/07/01; 08:18:19

Thanks to each of you who support Centennial with your gold-buying business, and who also support these online offers. The Queen Victory Sovereigns are now down, with supplies nearly exhausted. If you missed your chance to order them online, call the office. They might be able to scrape up enough to keep to happy.

Of course, they always have the full assortment of bullion, numismatic, and semi-numismatic coinage... these changing online offers are simply specially selected additions that are not typically found in the regular menu of items.

As such, you'll want to check out this latest offer of Prussian coins in "Gem Brilliant" uncirculated condition from 1873-1873. They feature the German Kaiser (also King of Prussia) Wilhelm I.

Trivia question: What does Queen Victoria (from our previous offer) have in common with Wilhelm I?

(click the URL given above to discover the "grand" answer)

HenriBelgian Msg 55552#5556206/07/01; 08:25:27

I agree with the premise that the facts/fundamentals are being obscured. I presume the purpose is to allow the orderly exit of the cognizent at maximum payout (high dollar into low Euro). It would seem that in order to break the ever expanding cycle of credit/debt creation, (the goal being to make money disappear faster than it is being created)the forces must be brought to bear on a known point of leverage...Black-Scholes. When events are caused to transpire contrary to what is predicted by the BS theory, money disappears! Now that this revelation is out of the bag and its discoverers were made whole (friends of the PTB) and no longer indulge in such frivolity(???), these destructive forces can be brought to bear on those who still believe in BS. I therefore predict a period of violent volatility in all markets. Rough seas for those who would attempt to grow their fiat holdings. This also explains the proliferation of derivatives. Option prices always benefit from increased volatility. I think though that there must be a limit to the madness and all appearances of control will slowly disintegrate.

When you said:

"...Growth with stable IRs is the one and only kind of growth that is genuine and productive (expansive). All other kinds of growth have a certain degree of artificiallity and provoques imbalences that are never sustainable."

I am curious as to how you reconcile that statement with the recent posting describing the Islamic dictates based on a gold and silver economy and the illegality of IRs period. Surely the expansion of the Ottoman Empire and North African excursions into Spain were not the result of stagnancy. Even in Roman times before specie was degraded and the populous was disarmed, growth could be classified as "impressive" albeit at the heft of military prowess. These civilizations and those referred to by FOA, lasted far longer than our recent spate of existence as nation states.

While I am not Islamic, I have to admit that they have a (non-) interesting idea.

Orville GoldenbacherSaul Alinsky, who is that?#5556306/07/01; 08:30:32

These Maxims are Worthy of Saul Alinsky


1. Never give a bureaucrat a chance to say no.
2. Don't fire all your ammunition at once.

3. Don't get mad except on purpose.

4. Effort is admirable. Achievement is valuable.

5. Make the opponents' goal more expensive than it's worth.

6. Give 'em a title and get 'em involved.

7. Expand the leadership.

8. You can't beat a plan with no plan.

9. Political technology determines political success.

10. Sound doctrine is sound politics.

11. In politics, you have your word and your friends; go back on either and you're dead.

12. Keep your eye on the main chance and don't stop to kick every barking dog.

13. Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.

14. Remember the other side has troubles too.

15. Don't treat good guys like you treat bad guys.

16. A well-run movement takes care of its own.

17. Hire at least as many to the right of you as to the left of you.

18. You can't save the world if you can't pay the rent.

19. All gains are incremental; some increments aren't gains.

20. A stable movement requries a healthy, reciprocal I.O.U. flow among its participants. Don't keep a careful tally.

21. An ounce of loyalty is worth a pound of cleverness.

22. Never miss a political meeting if you think there's the slightest chance you'll wish you'd been there.

23. In volunteer politics, a builder can build faster than a destroyer can destroy.

24. Actions have consequences.

25. The mind can absorb no more than the seat can endure.

26. Personnel is policy.

27. Remember it's a long ball game.

28. The test of moral ideas is moral results.

29. You can't beat somebody with nobody.

30. Better a snake in the grass than a viper in your bosom.

31. Don't fully trust anyone until he has stuck with a good cause which he saw was losing.

32. A prompt, generous letter of thanks can seal a commitment which otherwise might disappear when the going gets rough.

33. Governing is campaigning by different means.

34. You cannot make friends of your enemies by making enemies of your friends.

35. Choose your enemies as carefully as you choose your friends.

36. Keep a secure home base.

37. Don't rely on being given anything you don't ask for.

38. In politics, nothing moves unless it's pushed.

39. Winners aren't perfect. They made fewer mistakes than their rivals.

40. One big reason is better than many little reasons.

41. In moments of crisis, the initiative passes to those who are best prepared.

42. Politics is of the heart as well as of the mind. Many people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

43. Promptly report your action to the one who requested it.

44. Moral outrage is the most powerful motivating force in politics.

45. Pray as if it all depended on God; work as if it all depended on you.

by Morton C. Blackwell, President, The Leadership Institute

HenriWilhelm I's#5556406/07/01; 08:34:55

clink, clink, clink, clink
Galearis@ Netking, your #55549#5556506/07/01; 08:44:56

Very good post....

The argument for silver in a nutshell. All other factors, of course, remaining stable - i.e. demand.

The interesting and controversial point that Trail Guide made, the $.50/oz silver price could also come true. If so, he is expecting total (as in complete) fiat/economic collapse of the world economy. Gold over silver WOULD then make sense as we could more easily shoulder our packs of gold and join the long lines of refugees tramping across the dusty landscape (smile). In other words, if Trail Guide is correct, the COST of a bull market (what bull market in this environment?) should lead one to question its merits.

Following that train of logic, we should all hope that gold too doesn't "go to da moon". In other words $.05 silver means no precious metal markets beyond the barter level. In other words $.05 silver means $30,000/oz gold (with none sold). In other words, we had better hope that free markets never come to pass and that gold forever stays in its manipulated tight trading range.

For every gain there is a loss, for every loss there is a gain. Be careful what we hope for, it may come true...


Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeLeigh, Henri @confiscation#5556606/07/01; 09:06:27

(Lady)Leigh: Thanks!

Henri: You hit on an interesting point concerning gold now as a "commodity" and during the last confiscation as peoples "money".

The gold coins confiscated by FDR were those coins in circulation, i.e. common currency and bullion. Numismatic coins of the time certainly included those coins no longer minted before the confiscation. If one was so inclined to turn in such numismatic coins, Uncle Sam would have gladly compensated you with the green stuff. I believe coins in circulation are technically the property of the US government since it is illegal for me to willfuly destroy or deface the currency. If it was truly my property, why would it be illegal? Gold coins withdrawn from circulation by FDR were government property. When the government withdraws a coin or fiat paper from circulation, the holders of such items are free to exchange the old currency for the new, or to hold onto the old currency. Holding the old currency does not guarantee that the local bank or store will accept it, but eventually (if not immediately) the numismatic value of the item will prevail.

The gold eagles of today are legal tender in the amount of $50. To anyone who has ever bought one it is a no brainer. $50 face purchased for around $272? IMO the $50 face value is there for a reason. It is the price Uncle Sam will compensate the holders of bullion IF there is another confiscation. IMO "proof" gold eagles and pre-33 US gold coins will not be subject to confiscation. The 15% or greater stipulation is all inclusive and easily verified. I dare say all recognizable pre-33 US gold coins will maintain that level. Uncirculated examples will always maintain a premium of 30%+.

If one desires to preserve wealth in the USA via ownership of gold, I believe the common date/mint, raw, uncirculated US double eagle is the best compromize.

uponroofChina's Domestic POG Lags the International their advantage#5556706/07/01; 09:28:02,~Palladium~Group

China is figuring out how to make money at gold. This new 'open market' in China could be just another bastardizing gold scam. Seems they are happy with 'cash'.

Which is why they jumped all over that move to 297 a few weeks ago by selling >40 TONNES<.

"...Its fixing lags the international spot market price changes, thus allowing large gaps between the prices of the international and domestic prices to develop, encouraging the export of gold to Hong Kong to take advantage of the price differential..."

Seems abusing gold for profit is quite an international sport. Hell, might as well put it in the Olympics. The country that can squeeze the most fiat out of gold will get......drum roll please.....A GOLD MEDAL!!

btw-The Chinese this time, will enjoy the disqualification of America for illegal steroid abuse (trillions in derivatives).

Sorry.....a spell of pessimism. It will pass.

Cavan ManUS Equity Investing#5556806/07/01; 09:40:10

Just opened a small brokerage account at a well known firm. I had to indemnify "Nasdaq" COMPLETELY before firing up for online trading. What a freak show equity investing has become. Whatever happened to the "allocating capital" concept; gone with the wind(age)?
BelgianResponses#5556906/07/01; 10:02:17

Henri(#55562): Islamic community acting on their specific Gold/Silver/IRs principle, are a spit in the global economy ocean based on western capitalistic thinking. In practice they are dollarized as well and their sound principles only live in theory.
Your "Violent Volatility", says it all. How can something grow with such an amount of (destructive-etheric) violence ?
Fortunes are made and destroyed in no time. We already had exuberant violent volatility for more than 6 years now.
Valuations up and down with double digit figures in a matter of minutes. All know where and how this greatest show on earth will end. Inevitably with collapse. We seem to be immunised for masses of decimation. Seemingly healthy stock market indexes hide lots of dramas with a performant smoke screen. The collectivity behaves as if feeling very comfortable and succeeds in transferring this attitude to the public. Don't worry a be happy !
My reflections on the present big picture are intuitive.
Trying to point, why, I'm using the word "collapse". It is inspired on the investigation on the "quality" of the so called expansion. Blame, me, for being to philosophical and not pragmatic enough ? I've found my quality in a 5.000 years old metal that everybody still wants but doesn't need.
And probably it is because Gold hasn't been so violent (yet).

Old Yeller: glad that your interpretation on B.Godsell (WGC) is giving some confirmation. Otherwise, I feel so lonely (wink).

Rockgrabber : sure, a "war" is a classic and elegant (?) way out. Do they need that same old "costly" excuse ?
Isn't it more practical to blame China or Japan or even the Euro ? And why not Derivatives or POO ? Or a humble mea culpa on hyper speculation and irrational valuation (Greenspan sacrifice)?
Will see when we get there.

Confiscation of Gold : wouldn't it be more appropiate to simply tax the ownership of physical gold ? Old habbits and reflexes from the collectivity towards responsible individuals die hard ?

USAGOLDSLATT, Henri, Leigh. . . . .Holzer, Hoppe. . .How You Can Survive a Potential Gold Confiscation#5557006/07/01; 10:09:21

There's a story though I don't know if I can source it, that Rep. Ron Paul who sponsored the U.S. Eagle legislation, pushed for language that gold ownership in the United States be made a "right." Congress opted to keep it a "privilege." I agree that the proof U.S. Eagles would be considered "numismatic."

The so-called 15% rule is elusive. We could not find the reference, but it has been advanced in the context of "reporting requirements" in the 1985 legislation. If anybody has the exact language and the source we would like to see it. Supposedly, there is some kind of rule that when a dealer buys back pre-1933 it must be at 15% over the gold value to escape 1099 filing. But that has to do with "reporting requirements" and not confiscation so far as we can gather. Of course, there hasn't been a confiscation since 1985 so the government has not had a chance to define "bullion" and "numismatics" in that context and extend that rule beyond reporting.

As I say, I believe precedent remains on the side of pre-1933 gold coins and in favor of the owner of those items, and might very well be THE determing factor. As such, it represents the best probablility of escaping a future confiscation.

Most, if not all the precedent is contained in "How You Can Survive a Potential Gold Confiscation." George Cooper assembled a "Chronology of Documents Relating to Gold Confiscation" which extends Henry Mark Holzer's original chronology on gold confiscation. Holzer is Professor of Law at Brooklyn Law School and was Ayn Rand's attorney. We came by the chronology through our good friend, Elizabeth Currier, at the Committee for Monetary Research and Education in North Carolina. For those with a more scholarly bent, this chronology which appears as Appendix IV in the monograph sketches the precedent which favors pre-1933 gold coin ownership as a hedge against gold confiscation. There is also some very valuable analysis in the appendix from Donald Hoppe who first advanced some of these theories in the late 1960s early 1970s.

Anyone interested in the 48-page "Confiscation" memo is welcome to call the office and we will e-mail it to you. Clients may request a hard copy (limited availability).
You can also e-mail This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. to receive a copy.

MoutainGoldPrice Tells All!!!#5557106/07/01; 10:13:04

If a market is remotely free, examining price patterns and price trends will work. Do a little experiment. Look at 10 different markets over the last 20 years. You'll see patterns that repeat again and again.

Gold and Silver reflect all that is knoweable through its price structure. Sure they are "manipulated". All markets are manipulated to a certain degree. The USDollar can be printed by economic and political "elites". They can control the supply but not the demand.

As for the stock market being manipulated, this is wrong headed. Certainly, the FED has a "crash protection" fund to stabilize the stock market if it does a Oct 1987 crash. They do not intervene each day.

Gold is very easy to manipulate since no real public investor demand exists. When I did a poll of 10 random people, I found that 8 out 10 thought dollar was backed by some Gold! Why would you buy Gold if the paper IS Gold? The economic ignorance in this country is widespread. The something for nothing attitude is also widespread!

Technical analysis is the closest way to use scientific methods on the market. Psychology helps too. Price tells all. Sometimes it tells you what you do not want to hear!

PS Canadian Dollar is breaking out. This is a good sign for commodities in general.

Later...back to work.

IronHeadMelting Point or Melting Pot#5557206/07/01; 10:15:51

Welcome back SL&TT ! - Now if we can just get your alter bookend back, we'll have a complete shelf, no? <don't answer, please - small humor>

Regarding the confiscation issue - Do any of our resident alchemists know the melting point (not political or mass correlated economic hyper volatility event), but actual literal degree of restructuring the molecules? I believe around 1700 deg. F. Would not this be the "international exchange" answer to any repugnant stealing? Black Gold at it's finest in line with all other attempts at prohibition.

GalearisLease rates#5557306/07/01; 10:24:16

are climbing again....

All rates are now over 2% with some indication of forward sales (Barrick or Aussi?).


Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeIronHead #5557406/07/01; 10:44:26


The melting point of gold is 1974 degrees F. If melted, it better melt into jewelry, or it is bullion. Think of the pressure applied to some people not to SMILE for fear of confiscation of their bullion, er teeth!

Rest assured this Steve McGarrett will warmly welcome Wo Fat back to this rock, lodging courtesy of HPD!

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeOOPS, melting point of gold is 1947 degrees F.#5557506/07/01; 10:48:43

RockgrabberBelgian= exuses for the inevitable US economic shock#5557606/07/01; 11:17:47

Belgian, does everything not coincide perfectly? Here we are Euro Introduction, Japans problems (the worlds problems), hyper speculation that leads to irrational valuations, energy problems, a Mid-East conflict, and yet the US dollar is so very strong. Great time to take overvalued dollars and turn them into undervalued Euros. I just cant believe things have set up for such a perfect storm. A storm is blowing in, and they are forcasting clear sailing. Good way to lose your vessels=concretized energy=money=gold (if you believe them). Everyone of those is a trial balloon (floating idea) to come. This is coming together to perfectly not to have been desighned
RockgrabberMassive public perception problem in understanding value. #5557706/07/01; 11:31:07

Value is not always in the number. You can have a high number with little value, as well as a low number with high value. I will take home prices for example. When talking to folks, and they ask, is the price of my house going to now go down. I think yes, but if it somehow stays up here or even charges higher (with lower rates) you will see that value of the number (say 500,000) go way down. This is inflation. The percieved value in numbers is nothing but an illusion. The number does not mean the value. The value is in how much energy that number commands. Yes the US buck commands much energy at this moment, but that is all it is, a moment. And the buck has so much energy stored in it right now, due to low artificial gold price. Gold is and commands energy, and the buck right now buys cheap gold, therefore lots of energy. That is all money is, is concretized energy. Why store up your energy in a valueless fiat creation. Why not store it in what makes that valueless fiat creation look so strong? The "Real Deal" GOLD! These moments last not forever, that is why I am feeling anxious. Dont put your faith in an illusion= the US dollar (even people or goverments for that matter).
wiley(No Subject)#5557806/07/01; 11:35:40


There has been a lot of discussion on what defines a numismatic coin. This is an excerpt from the US Code which defines the Gold eagles as numismatic, according to the US congress.
31 USC Sec. 5112 01/05/99
(i)(1) Notwithstanding section 5111(a)(1) of this title, the Secretary shall mint and issue the gold coins described in paragraphs (7), (8), (9), and (10) of subsection (a) of this section, in quantities sufficient to meet public demand, and such gold coins shall -
(A) have a design determined by the Secretary, except that the

fifty dollar gold coin shall have -
(i) on the obverse side, a design symbolic of Liberty; and
(ii) on the reverse side, a design representing a family of eagles, with the male carrying an olive branch and flying above a nest containing a female eagle and hatchlings;
(B) have inscriptions of the denomination, the weight of the

fine gold content, the year of minting or issuance, and the words ''Liberty'', ''In God We Trust'', ''United States of America'', and ''E Pluribus Unum''; and (C) have reeded edges.
(2)(A) The Secretary shall sell the coins minted under this subsection to the public at a price equal to the market value of the bullion at the time of sale, plus the cost of minting, marketing, and distributing such coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, and promotional and overhead expenses).
(B) The Secretary shall make bulk sales of the coins minted under this subsection at a reasonable discount.
(3) For purposes of section 5132(a)(1) of this title, all coins minted under this subsection shall be considered to be numismatic items.

The silver eagle and the states quarters are included in numismatic items in other sections of this code.

This has been laying around on my desktop for a while. Sorry I didn't the posters handle but I believe the posting date was 12/02/00 if someone wants to look it up.

Back to the lurkhausen.

LeighRockgrabber - Economic Shock#5557906/07/01; 11:39:48

Funny you should mention about economic shock! LeMetropoleCafe has just (in the last few minutes) put out a wonderful commentary on that very subject. It's called "A Ring of Dominoes" by Daan Joubert, served at the Toulouse-Lautrec Table.
miner49erIs this an error?#5558006/07/01; 11:46:45

Got this link from here a while back (found it quite useful, hope you don't mind me using it...)

Can anyone who is familiar with this explain whether my eyes are seeing correctly, or if there was an error in the charting algorithm at 10:00am?

Vielen Dank...

Old YellerStrong dollar update#5558106/07/01; 11:54:12

Is it just me,or is this debate starting to look pretty silly.The fundamentals are terrible,the more everyone talks in circles,hopefully,the quicker the top will arrive.
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeWiley#5558206/07/01; 12:04:56

If that is how it is written, it is contrary to the prevalent attitude in the numismatic community. Go to any show, shop, collector or read any widely circulated numismatic guide/magazine and pre-33 US gold is universally accepted as numismatic, pre-33 European fractional as semi-numismatic, and post-33 gold coins from anywhere as predominately bullion. Post-33 proof coins excepted.

Defining a semi-numismatic coin is where there is the greatest room for disagreement. I believe the 15% criteria was proposed to address this interesting niche in collecting. Beware of the pre-33 European fractionals that were in reality minted from the original dies after 1933!

As for the government defining the term numismatic, would it be any less confusing than their constant redefining of our 2nd Amendment "....right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."?

Al FulchinoHappy Days are Here Again? <grin> It is all relative, isn't it?#5558306/07/01; 13:23:09

"THERE WAS A LOT of fear that drove prices up to begin with, and now it's clear that that fear was misplaced," said Ken Miller, analyst for Purvin and Gertz in Houston. "Pump prices are certainly going to come down."
Wholesale gasoline prices in most areas of the country have fallen between 15 and 25 percent since their highs at the end of May due to steadily growing supply. The cost of the fuel fresh from refineries in the Gulf Coast is now as low as 73 cents a gallon, compared with 91 cents less than two weeks ago.
The supply growth has erased a deep deficit and brought U.S. gasoline stocks to more than 6 million barrels, or 3 percent, ahead of last year. This is attributed to a brisk domestic refining pace and strong imports, according to the American Petroleum Institute.

The outlook could awaken the nation's motorists from their gasoline nightmare, caused by near-record retail prices of $1.69 a gallon, and more than $2 a gallon in certain areas of the West Coast and Midwest, according to the American Automobile Association's daily survey.

The high prices were driven by fears of short supplies this summer — a season of traditionally high gasoline demand — and recollections of last year's spike in the Midwest which drove prices as high as $2.75 in some major cities.
But this summer's relief is not likely to come immediately, analysts said, since retailers often take two weeks or more to start reflecting their lower costs at the pumps.

"It looks like the improved supplies will be depressing gasoline prices at the marketplace," said Jerry Cheske, spokesman for the AAA. "But, historically speaking, retail prices are slower to follow wholesale declines than increases."
Cheske added that regional supply disruptions, like a refinery shutdown or a pipeline leak, could send prices at some service stations the other way. Also, Iraq's cutoff of most of its oil exports due to a row with the United Nations could keep crude oil prices high and offer support for gasoline values.

Nonetheless, the improved outlook puts the prospect of $3 gasoline farther out of reach, even after reports of oil companies ordering large number ’3's in California this spring to hang in the dollar slot at filling stations.
"The shortage is over," said one Texas gasoline trader Wednesday. "There's plenty of gasoline out there."

ChristianDollar Policy#5558406/07/01; 13:36:32

Our present dollar policy is backed by credit creation gold, a new form of commodity backing for a modern system that is not based on the commodity gold but a commodity bundle that consists of oil, natural gas, agriculture commodities, (corn, wheat, soybeans) mineral commodities, housing. There are two requirements of a modern international credit creation gold standard. 1-Ending the monetization of government debt +2-Ending the monetization of reserve currencies or in our case the $currency. By sharply increasing the net reserves of the world as a whole, and sharply lower interest rates to stimulate investment in physical assets (industry) to increase employment. The dollar reserve currency is to be phased out and a credit creation gold currency made up of a bundle of commodities is being phased in. Presently that credit creation gold made up of a commodity gold is priced at $112,000. But I have no idea how much is in that bundle. Can somebody help me. Also Greenspan has and is retiring some foreign currency reserves by swaps of offsetting claims with gold or if there is no gold it is amortized with government- to- government debt. The monetary gold used in the make up of the commodity bundle has been repriced and can not be leased or sold. The gold lease going on is a simple means of selling excess gold. This information I got out of Switzerland and in no way can I say how or who for I will never have access to that again. There is no way I can get honest information from the USA government so I have to look elswhere. There is a lot of holes in this but I hope some of you can help me fill them. We are way off course, I have been wrong, and there is no reliable information available. What we are seeing is the start of monetization world wide of all raw materials and and ever increasing debt for the middle class that is rapidly annihilating them and delivering them into Third World Status. This will enrich the bankers, the owners of the FED+BIS thill they own it all. By all I mean not just all of the property, but us also. People can be mortgaged and jailed if they fail to pay.
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeHBM @ WWII use of nickel #55510#5558506/07/01; 13:46:27

Among the lesser known uses of nickel during WWII was its intensive use in the Manhatten Project. Its critical application at that time was in the barrier membrane used to concentrate the U235 through gaseous diffusion.
Belgian@ Rockgrabber#5558606/07/01; 14:16:49

You are scoring two points : "coincidence" and "energy".
Yes, Sir...that's to the point !

Randy (@ The Tower)A random thought on the "15 percent criteria" on semi/numismatic coins#5558706/07/01; 14:22:45

This is not my field of study, but I thought I would run this idea up the flagpole. Maybe MK and others will salute, or maybe they'll burn the flag. Either way, this thought will have been aired, and perhaps I can benefit from any following dialog.

The pre-1933 international gold coinage was originally alloyed and minted for circulation purposes. Common sense alone suggests strongly that these are not the same as "bullion" items.

There are good quantities generally available, and they sell at bargain prices representing a low premium over spot gold prices, making them a competitive alternative to bullion for those who want to own the most gold for their purchasing dollars.

While many of these old world coins are CURRENTLY available at premiums near and below the "15 percent criteria" versus the gold content value, can anyone imagine what would happen to the premiums on these items if rumors of a governmental gold bullion confiscation began to leak? To my mind, the premiums would climb impressively as bullion holders (and perhaps paper dollar holders too) tried to move into any avenue that offered them ANY degree of safety from straight commodity bullion. First the premiums on the "undisputable" numismatics (U.S. Liberty and St Gaudens) would rise prohibatively high, followed rapidly by rising premiums in the European and other international old world gold coinage as they absorb the overflow.

No government would want the snafu of dealing on a case by case basis with each individual as they claim the special collectible merits and argue the minutia of this or that gold sovereign, French rooster or angel, Dutch guilder, or Swiss helvetia. IF (and that's a big if) a gold confiscation were deemed the expedient economic solution by Congress during a crisis, it would quickly become a daunting task to pay "fair market value" for any gold occurring in "non-commodity form", that is to say, anything that isn't obviously a simple bullion item pre-stamped with telltale weight and fineness. For the price-conscious quantity-minded gold investor who is also wary of Congressional whims, the so-called "semi-numismatic" pre-33 European (international) gold coinage offers a solid middle ground. And that's where I comfortably stand. Call Centennial and ask about their prices on brilliant uncirculated gold Swiss francs or British sovereigns. You'll be pleasantly surprised how affordable they are.

Sierra MadreBreaking news...for what it's worth#5558806/07/01; 14:29:41

Mexico City, June 7, 2001

Grupo Elektra, quoted on the NYSE under symbol EKT, and Banco de Mexico, Mexico's Central Bank, have signed a contract authorizing Grupo Elektra as a distributor of Banco de Mexico's "Libertad" one ounce silver .999 coin, which has no face value and is legal tender under certain circumstances.

Grupo Elektra operates 550 stores throughout Mexico. It will initiate operations in silver sales and re-purchases from the public at five stores in the Cuernavaca area, later this month, for the purpose of gathering experience in this field, which is new to the company. National expansion will follow shortly thereafter.

Grupo Elektra expects to be selling and buying silver "Libertad" coins in all its stores, by year end.

The readers at this Forum may be interested in this piece of news.

ChristianDollar Policy#5558906/07/01; 14:47:26

Greenspan is using the housing component of credit creation gold to support the stock market. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac created money is supporting the stock market in order for the insiders to continue selling. The stock market is going to decline in an orderly fashion....
MoutainGoldAny Time Study TA's on Forum??? 6/21/01 Is It Important???#5559006/07/01; 14:52:04

Gold has an important 19 year anniversary June21,2001. June 21st, 1982 was an important low. Both dates had solar eclipses.

My Time study indicates a very powerful major turn for Gold and Silver about now. I am looking for big bull run till 2006. Any astro cycle stuff? I use Gann and Delta.

Anyone else do work like this on the markets?

PS Canadian Dollar swing trade buy working great. Nice when your system works!!!


Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeSierra Madre @ "Libertad"#5559106/07/01; 14:54:18

Libertad is "legal tender under certain circumstances". Were the circumstances given?
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeMoutainGold#5559206/07/01; 15:09:17

Here is a piece of relevant data for TA usage for comparing 1982 to 2001. Mr. T was clearly accumulating physical in 1982. Recent commercials with Mr. T clearly show that he has been divesting himself of physical. Everyone blames the cabal, yet no one holds Mr. T accountable? **[SMILE]**
Cavan ManSierra Madre#5559306/07/01; 15:18:37

Any discussion of the Helms visit and dollarization in the press there?
Sierra MadreSLATT: about the legal tender status of silver coins in Mexico...#5559406/07/01; 15:32:12

I have reviewed the Monetary Law and it is, unfortunately, rather vague in its stipulations.

For one thing, it is clear that the Bank of Mexico has the obligation to buy any quantity of these "Libertad" coins from whoever tenders them, and pay the seller for them at the day's price, posted by the B. of M.

Also, it appears that if a debtor can show that he received silver coins in a credit operation, the debtor can pay off that debt in the same silver coin. This apparently would favor the debtor in silver, if the price of silver falls.

And, if silver rises, the savers in silver can always go to the B. of M. and sell their revalued silver at the current price, for paper pesos.

Further, since these coins are legal tender, they can be exported freely and should be free of import duties into any other country.

And further, since the coins are legal tender, in effect money, there is no VAT (Value Added Tax) on their sale within Mexico.

Hope this helps!


Sierra MadreCavan Man...about Helms's visit and dollarization in Mexico...#5559506/07/01; 15:42:42

I did not catch any news in the papers regarding dollarization for Mexico.

As I remember, the reports were noncommmital and vague. Probably too sensitive to be reported (truthfully).

I greatly fear that dollarization was on the agenda, but I have no substantiation. Pres. Fox has declared clearly, that he will not dollarize the Mexican economy. But, it may be expedient to do so.

On another subject, I see increasing rumblings of protectionism in the U.S. - it had to happen sooner or later.

Everything seems to be getting fouled up for Mr. GWB.

A financial man who was recently in N.Y., told me that the "old guys" are very worried and all are in liquid instruments. They say the only reason the scenario has not caved in as yet, is the large number of youths in finance, who do not realize the seriousness of the situation.

The Mexican financial man said to me, "Sometime in the next quarter, IF a really big darling goes into bankruptcy due to excessive debt, the dominoes will begin to fall." Which fits in closely with the recent article in which examines the domino effect.

What a mess! Count your eagles and maples.


PragmaticCabal#5559606/07/01; 15:43:58

Uponroof: Notice how much mileage GE has been getting with "cabal" Tending to make my eyes glaze over. The two years I spent there I never said two words.

1) cabal

2) Greenscum

Moutaingold: Looks like a good trade with Cnd$ but my stuff tells me that it is in an ongoing bear market and this latest rally is of poor quality and has very little left. And if the poor thing is counting on the price of commodities to bail it out:(

Your buddy in gold


Netking@Sierra Madre#5559706/07/01; 15:52:14

Sierra Madre(55588)
Thanks for this! we've been watching this Mexican development, do you have more details on the "numbers" for this, or any http: links?

R PowellGood reading#5559806/07/01; 16:01:41

"Recent Fed. stats showed that broad money supply expanded by $25 billion in the latest week and by an incredible $810 billion over the last twelve months."
This is just one sentence from Jim Puplava's (Part 9) latest installment. I read about one quarter of it while it was printing. Be sure to fill the ink containers if you decide to do the same as it prints out at 31 pages. From what I've read, it's very good. It mentions many of those economic occurances that are spoken of here, including natural resourses/commodities and shiny metals.
I found this next door.

beestingSierra Madre #55588....Breaking News.#5559906/07/01; 16:02:10

Sierra, that bit of news can be and should be considered an "In Your Face" to the IMF, who is the agency responsible for the current use of "Fiat" money the world over.
Do you have an internet link to the breaking story in english yet?
Did the story give a date on just when the .999 Silver coins would be sold?

Now if I could just talk my wife into a trip to Mexico when the coins are put up for sale....hmmmmm.....Thanks for the news.....beesting.

CoBra(too)Object(ion), your Honor ...#5560006/07/01; 16:04:27

...Well, well, as I see the partying is going on and no-one cares about reality - swingin' twenties and so on - can't you see - the miracle economy is done and gone - forever!
The BS of the BLS was found out to be lacking the statists of Greenspanesque artists and the rest may be found in TA, sans fundamentals - as they say - it's free fall (no tax nor toll) from today - join the bungee jumping foray ... and pray ... not to bounce as Nasd or DJ, dead cat Disc Jockey! - just buy an ounce of reality - I do and you? cb2

Peter AsherRandy (@ The Tower) (06/07/01; 14:22:45MT - msg#: 55587)#5560106/07/01; 16:09:57

This may be hard to take for both of us but I totally agree with all of that. I am sitting here looking at a note for tonight's posting that says "Escalating fear of confiscation." The only thing I can add is that as the various national mints add more Eagles Maples and Phillies etc. to the total bullion coin inventory, the smaller the proportion of pre-33s becomes. Also, as gold regains its popularity as an investment vehicle, I would expect the numismatics to be more tightly held than the bullions. Both aspects would widen the premium well before the fear of confiscation kicked in hard.

The best protection against confiscation would then be that, due to the expanded differntial, the threat of pre-33s as money would be diminished in the governments game. The pre-33s would be asset property of much higher value then melt and would be taxable on transfer. If they were subject to confiscation that taxable asset would vanish as there would be no collectors to buy them.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeSierra Madre#5560206/07/01; 16:09:57

Thanks for the info on the Libertad. Interesting concepts emanating from Mexico of late, open political debate and now REAL MONEY! May both concepts cross our border!
RStest#5560306/07/01; 16:11:02

OROBlack Blade - thoughts your posts induced me to write#5560406/07/01; 16:35:54

The "lack of savings" discussed at some length here at the forum and in articles, some of which you posted is a lack of very particular savings, after tax deposits in taxable accounts. Anyone doing so with anything other than "emergency money" would be called an idiot by Suz' Orman and crew. As I had shown before, since 401(k) and IRA contributions, as well as mutual fund purchases do not show up on the savings side, nor do real investment properties (gold, rarities, and real estate) we have a problem of irrelevant definitions for savings - only the most repellant vehicle is regarded as such. Furthermore, stock option compensation does not show up on the income side. Nor does capital gain show up on the income side, particularly not in real estate, antiques and art. Nor does "black market" income show up.

My favorite example of this discrepancy is Israel ca. 1973-8 with prices skyrocketing, and the aggregate sales accountings surpassing aggregate income by 15% chronically. While assets appreciate and the "black market" thrives. The case studies on the period still pale in comparison to some periods in the 60s when people used canned goods for black market money. One anecdote related to me was that an enterprising manufacturer simply stuffed some empty cans in the shipping cartons of canned goods that were used for money. In a somewhat grotesque version of Gresham's law, the cartons with more empty cans were used in trade first, not only because their value was lower, but because they were simply lighter. The merchants would hapilly accept the cartons with empty cans just as the full ones because they would be traded again throughout the day. Only when deciding on what to keep for savings would anyone care whether the cans in the carton are all full.

It is not so much that people in general are over-spending, it is that younger people (and thus poorer people) and lower income older workers were riding the artificial boom that was created when cars were built without oil production and refining capacity to power them, server farms built without electric supply to keep them running, exurbia was populated and only in 1998 did the Federal incompetents let the funding for roads loose. The counter to the investment boom was the lack of infrastructure investment. The reason for the feel good boom was the fact that no upstream investment accompanied the expansion in downstream capacity in retailing, in high tech, in new high tech services and consumer products.

Inventory was slowly eliminated by high tech enabling "just in time" delivery and empowering the designers and marketers to come much closer to consumer's preferences due to the ease of product and process design. Thus anything more complex than a sofa became obsolete by the time it was home. While the power to make it run was not being made available.

We could buy megahouses because no one was building roads to them, the electric company did not invest in more power generation, the oil companies were not producing oil or refined product to power the SUV that you needed in order to travel over the craggy roads, freeing up the labor and materials so that you could build a fancier house, have 5 TVs and 3 computers, etc.. And this does not take into account the import boom driven by dollar debt deflation abroad, where even residential real-estate fell 30% in dollar terms, where emerging Economies took out 2 or 2.4 trillion dollars in debt and paid that down to 0.5 trillion, in all of 4 years.

The lower income people that skipped obtaining the specialized skills for infrastructure work ended up on construction crews, in hamburger flipping jobs, and in retail. Some of the specialized infrastructure people went over to flipping stocks and consulting on the complexities of regulatory issues for their former employers, or doing the regulation themselves, the "no" rubber stamp in hand.

Needless to say, people save in things other than bank savings, where real returns "suck", and moved funds into tax favored accounts, where the tax favor is worth a 15% return - at a minimum. They also speculate in real-estate by buying as much house as they can clean on a weekend. As I detailed before, for the middle income people, taking an extra tax favored mortgage on $10000 and putting it in an IRA/401(k), saves $2800 in taxes the same year, from a 401(k) you can take back the $10000 as a loan and do the home improvement project (or whatever), and still spend the $2800 tax benefit. You pay yourself the interest, and deduct the 7% interest, $700 the next year, giving you an after tax payment of $504. or 5%. If you did not loan yourself the money, but kept it in the IRA, you can earn 7% by buying your own mortgage in a mortgage backed security. The $10000 will earn $700 the first year, and you will pay (after tax) $500, net earnings are $200. On the 5th year you have $4000 of earnings in the IRA, you have paid $2400 in interest after tax, with a net $1600 profit from interest and another $2800 you spent, which after paying the 10% penalty if you lose your income, taking out the money at the most tax opportune time gives you a $3400 profit, whatever appreciation and enjoyment you got out of the extra size house, most likely something around $3000 for the appreciation, leaving you with a net $6400 profit on the bank's money in 5 years. You carry various risks, but it is the most savvy penny pinchers I see doing this. Thank you mister tax man for the distortion.

All you really need is to hold a job for 3 years to break even.

Real estate bubble? Of course.

The savings are in the extra house you got for speculative (investment) purposes rather than direct utility, and in the mortgage loan you pay off while keeping the balance in the tax advantaged account. Can you beat that? Save by going into debt? Assuring yourself of the benefit before you go through the deprivations of saving?

Furthermore, the demographic bubble is pushing this with more and more people expecting greater future incomes as they age. A counter-intuitive finding out of a recent demographic study I was doiing is that the most rapidly growing age group is the one enjoying the most rapid gains in income. They create their own "liquidity", they become more valuable because they understand the needs and wants of the fastest growing marketing target. They also understand their technologies etc.. When the boomers were turning from 30 +/-5 to 40 +/-5 they saw an improvement in wage relative to 30 year olds, from 15% higher wage during the prior generation to 30% higher wage. Thus boomers could expect better incomes increasing at a higher rate than the rest of society, particularly the early to middle boomers who populate the managerial levels in the new corporations built to serve the later born masses and employ them.

During the 70s, 20 million in the 40 year old group were earning 12% and later 15% more than 30 year olds. from 1980 till 1993, their numbers grew to 40 million, and the improvement in income over 30 year olds grew to 30%. Now that the numbers are stabilizing just over 40 million, the wage improvement over 30 year olds dropped back to 15%.

In the late 70s and early 80s, 50 year olds earned as much as the boomers then entering the 40 year old group. Now that boomers are increasingly filling this age group, the wage improvement went from none with 20 million in 82, to 12% with 37 million in 1999, going on 42 million in 2005.

The echo boom generation is just filling in for the bust generation, and will only start changing the work demographic in 2010. It is interesting that the age groups will be about 40-44 million for each 10 year group at that time. It will make for an interesting situation, as each group will be succeeded by another of near identical size. One would expect no need for substantial fresh housing and steady rather than booming growth following the boomers.

By the way, the old Census Bureau estimates were so wrong that even the highest immigration effect estimates have fallen below the reality of the latest census. Thus the actual growth in younger generations may be larger than these figures once Census is done fiddling with them and publishes.

Back to the money front, where it is true that lower income people are not saving, middle income people above $70K on the Coasts and $50k in the Midwest do invest - rather than save, putting their funds in non-taxable accounts, in real items and real-estate, and in stocks and bonds. Their actual income is greater than reported, and their savings may actually come about as a front loaded speculation, where the investment target is obtained first, funded by debt, and the debt is covered after the fact of investment. At least for boomers this seems more likely, as their prospects seem to improve substantially in relative terms as they age, therefore making the front end investment and back end payment more appropriate for them. There is also the odd lack of self discipline that makes "must do" debt pay downs a more attractive proposition than "should do" savings. Thus the modern savings system is focused on increasing equity ownership of a leveraged investment.

No wonder they beat the government at its debt game. They are forever positioned to enjoy price inflation as it erodes their debt and increases the relative value of their assets. Obviously the life lesson of the 70s.

As indicated earlier, the credit boom condition is not so damaging of its own, in creating the new capacity that it does close to the consumer, but in the imbalance that forms farther from the consumer, where no supply capacity is built to feed the downstream demand because price signals are distorted where debt creates capacity where people expect an opportunity ("the new") instead of where it is producing a current return. Come a few years, the investments close to the consumer and the general investment in efficiency enhancing computers and software, are put in place with much less of a return than expected when the projects were funded. The main culprit is the lack of investment in upstream supply in the face of increased downstream demand making for rising input costs relative to revenue. The "new businesses" earn a fraction of expected returns while upstream producers of basic industries, particularly energy extraction and production, unexpectedly earn the returns on the capital of the "new businesses".

The stock market had shown up the errors of the corporations and their financiers among financial institutions hyping loudly the next Blodget Special and Mary Meeker dis-Opportunity on the net. The markets first jacked up the stocks of tech suppliers, and smacked down the stocks of their customers, which were nearly everybody. The high tech leaders gained in market cap, while the average stock, and the advance decline line receded. Now that the high tech projects are in place and the returns are nowhere to be seen, investment in this field has dried up and the markets reward the former high tech customers with higher stock values and punish the high tech leadership with lower values. The average stock is climbing as the AD line advances, while leading tech suppliers lose steam.

The credit expansion in a fiat money system enhances errors of the thundering herd because they can borrow financial resources into existence with plain hype of expectations instead of borrowing from existing cash flow producers. Thus the judgments of current income producers are trumped by those of debt (and leveraged equity) issuers who fund first and find takers for the credit assets later. Inevitably, losses are made by the issuers and the financing institutions who carry the paper on their books and the producers of current income find no reason to buy these issues. This is where the Fed comes in with lower interest rates. Their purpose is to alleviate the losses at the boom financing institutions and to herd current income producers into buying the low grade paper by denying them a market return on safer (read as short term) investments. If one had not understood this before, it should be obvious now that the thundering herd IS Wall Street and its financial professionals, among them the Fed. As the herd dashes towards the cliffs overhanging the deep gorge, the professionals are putting the finishing touches on the research about why the herd is heading where it is and how great that place must be, and rush to ride the leading beasts moments before they fall over the cliff.

Professionals require solid evidence, cohesive theory, and proof before they understand and accept a business trend. It is inevitable that the expertise that is involved in the trend is freed up only as it approaches its end, when the expert practitioners find no further opportunities and are free to write professional looking reports and papers full of proof and theories of the inevitability of the trend and its endless benefits, which the financial professionals then repeat as they form a consensus at the end of the business trend. The truth of the matter is that talents for riding an emerging trend and profiting from it vary and change along the trend, and among trends. It is only those who fly by the seat of their pants without taking the trouble to justify explicitly what they see and do that have a chance to benefit from an emerging and building trend. The semi explicit who can formulate a convincing investment sales pitch do best at the middle of the trend as it matured and had grown in scale. The explicit analysis of the professionals is available only at the maturity and at the end of the trend, giving justifications for the late coming and large scale investments that mark the end of the trend and are the cause of its demise as the financiers overwhelm the opportunities that caused the business trend, filling all the nooks and crannies of the trend's market segments with an overwhelming flood of investments that will earn a negative return for the financiers and their clients.

What keeps these financiers and professionals in their jobs is the Fed's rescue package of low interest rates that force the income producing market participants out of the safety of short term assets into long term assets as the financiers refinance their paper issuer's balance sheets with short term funds that reduce long term liabilities. Note that since just before the Fed started with lowering short rates, the banks started growing the monetary aggregates, while the debt aggregates, particularly the commercial debt, stood in place or grew more slowly. Today's banking is the lifeless arbitrageur of Fed dictated funding, without the ability to understand the markets or any incentive to gain that understanding so long as the Fed is there to dictate short term rates as a matter of law rather than market. Recent financial deregulation may lead out of this as banks gain expertise in broader areas of investment, marketing, and financial services now that we have had a few years of actual competition in this area. I only hold my breath here because of the stench and the opportunities to escape it now arising, not because of great expectations of a cleanup.

Back to the monetary issues, I looked again at my rough estimates for the US dollar debt supply and demand within the US credit markets. These are showing:
excess supply in the 60s till 1969 with the greatest over-supply in the mid 1960s (+3% excess at peak),
a deficit in recessionary 1969-70 (-3% deficit),
a historic surge unprecedented in the statistics in the 1972-3 period (+5% excess at peak),
a mild short term deficit in 1974-5 (-1%, a mild deficit),
another wave of extreme surplus for 1975-1979 with a near 1972 level peak in 1978 (+4%),
a horrendous depressionary deficit as Volcker sprung shut the global debt trap in late 1979 at a deficit of –2%, leading to a peak squeeze of those who dared be short the dollar at the 1981-3 period with levels at an extreme deficit of –6% (13% of the economy as measured by GDP), and continuing till 1984 with a –1% deficit,
ending his term, Volcker let out a short 60s level supply excess of just under +3% through 1987, when Greenspan took over,
Greenspan oversaw a deficit period of great depressionary breadth and depth at –2% in 1988, -3% in 1989, -4% in 1990, -5% in 1991, -4% in 1992-3, -4% in 1994-5, and a loosening in 1995-7 to –2%, and 1998 with full balance,
1999 to date has been in negative territory, at –1%.

When this is adjusted for tax effects, the figures are raised in the 1970s-through 1986 by +1.5%, and by +1% in the post tax reform period when the bulk of consumer interest was put out of schedule A. This leads to revision of the late 80s to negative, but close to neutral period in 1995-7, a slight positive in 1998, and neutral since then.

The tight money policy – and that is what I see internally in the US – had little effect on internal price inflation as the currency continued depreciating despite a large deficit, underscoring that fiat currency is impossible to maintain whether deflationary or inflationary monetary conditions prevail. Both entail currency depreciation.

So, who is the culprit of the boom and bust cycles after 1980? Volcker, and later Greenspan, were quite obviously responsible for the bust portion of the credit cycles. Who did the booms? Well, it seems that the most recent one was purely a Fed jr. operation (the BOJ), operating with the LDP politicians to deny the Japanese the benefits of consuming their own production. They had dropped interest rates to next to nothing in 1995, and have reached nothing in 1998-2001. The BOJ has been buying up dollars, i.e. Treasuries, to the tune of $800 billion by the end of this year. Thus supplying dollar backed yen to the internal market beset by deflationary monetary conditions on a scale of the great depression, to paper over losses on defaulting debt, depreciating real-estate, and high market shares in shrinking markets. The BOJ stands squarely in the center of the boom bust cycles of this period, pumping up money that flees Japan at the first opportunity and never comes back. The fact remains that the late 80s Japanese investment boom had filled any potential opportunity in the industries of that age with mountains of investment. They proceeded to wash international investment into emerging Asia and other markets, from 1995 till 1997:

Korea, 90 billion dollars in international lending (bank and bond market) in 1994, 240 billion in 1997, grew 170%.
Indonesia, $80 bil in ’94, to $130 bil in 1997, up 63%.
Malaysia: $21 bil to nearly 70, over 3 fold.
Thailand: 75 to 205, nearly 3 fold.
China: 100 to 180, up 80%.
Taiwan – flat.
Philippines: 12 to over 33, approaching 3 fold,
Brazil: 130 to 230, up 80%
Mexico – down slightly.
Argentina: 60 to over 100, 66% growth
Chile: 20 to 45, more than doubling.

Banking centers:
Singapore – 440 to 620, up 40%
Hong Kong: 650 to 900, up 40%

Corporate bonds: $150 billion issued per year in 1994, peak of $550 billion per year in 1997-8, courtesy of the BOJ sponsored yen carry trade, growth in issuance rate was 250%.
NET foreign purchases of US equities, $20 in early 94, $80 in 98, $175 in 2000 billions all figures.
Agency issues: 1994 $300 bil. 1999, growing immediately following the end of the yen spike of 1998, $650 billion.
Gross foreign investment flow - $110 billion in 1994, $560 billion in 1997-8 peak, $650 billion latest data (2000).
Is it the Fed that kept interest rates at next to nothing?

Gross international borrowings from $3.5 trillion in 1994 (BOJ rates at 1.75%) to $8 trillion in 2000 (BOJ funds at 0.25%) through $4.4 trillion in late1998 (BOJ rates at 0.5%), up 120% from 94, up close to 100% since late 98. It should be pointed out that at 1984 (BOJ rates at 5%, down from 9%) levels were a mere $1 trillion in international bank lending and bonds for Europe, which grew 3 fold by 1993 (BOJ lowers rates from 3.25% to 2.5%).

While the Japanese money supply at M2 + CD at 510 trillion yen in 1994, grew to near 610 trillion yen, the action at near cash M1 of 120 trillion yen in late 1993 (flat for 4 years) went on to grow 50% by 1998, and reached near 210 trillion yen recently, up 80%. This compares with a US M1 SHRINKING by 10% over the same period. This is the hottest most leverageable money on earth. Japanese borrowing, expressed in the broader monetary aggregates less M1 is next to nothing. All of this increase in the Japanese monetary base went abroad with a magnification through the Euroyen markets where the under 2% cost of funds caused this under $1 trillion of near pure cash to be leveraged up to a potential $25 trillion of bonds, bank lending, equities and derivatives. With nearly $2 trillion paid off in crashing Asia and , the money was re-lent in the USA and in Europe. Helping Europe get out of its funk and turbocharging the US high tech economy (something Japanese know about, having destroyed their own industries with it just a short decade ago).

The BOJ is doing this, and the Fed has no tools at its disposal to change this. It is only a hardening of monetary policy in Japan and a massive loosening in strangling Japanese regulation that can price the Japanese consumer back into his market, and price out the rest of the world.

The trigger event was the Japanese lowering of interest rates in 1995 which created a push to lend everywhere around the globe. The secondary trigger was the push of cash by the BOJ in this same period. With the investment opportunities of Japan being filled to excess before 1990 and with government policy restricting Japanese consumers from buying anything, all this yen was pushed abroad where it is building up and then wrecking everything in sight. Setting up, with IMF and Fed assistance, dollar debt traps for the world as a whole. First, Japanese consumers were priced out of their own production, then their neighbors around the pacific rim (note that Korea has increased industrial production 65% since the debt trap was sprung in 1997 and its domestic economy flattened into 1998, nearly all of it is exported as the trade balance went from -$25 billion to +$40 billion in early 1999 and now +$10 bil. as domestic consumption recovers now that the foreign debts are largely paid or have foreign reserves against them). Coming soon is Europe and then the US.

The Japanese action, by sending out money forcefully into the international markets, prices in foreign consumers and industries catering to them, who both enjoy increased borrowing power due to artificially low interest rates, and are induced to buy the cheap products of the new capacity built with only market share in mind rather than profits. Since the international monetary system is a dollar denominated one, the Japanese policy has the strongest effect in the US, where the Fed has obviously tried to fight it, and where it joins the dollar debt squeeze

OROBlack Blade - thoughts your posts induced me to write - continued#5560506/07/01; 16:36:57

The Japanese action, by sending out money forcefully into the international markets, prices in foreign consumers and industries catering to them, who both enjoy increased borrowing power due to artificially low interest rates, and are induced to buy the cheap products of the new capacity built with only market share in mind rather than profits. Since the international monetary system is a dollar denominated one, the Japanese policy has the strongest effect in the US, where the Fed has obviously tried to fight it, and where it joins the dollar debt squeeze initiated by Volcker to price goods and the borrowing power to buy them cheaply for Americans. Japan, being in a demographic funk and having a more laid back and consumerist inheritor generation coming into the job and consumer markets, has no chance at producing the goods that this generation will consume while caring for their elderly parents and grandparents. The US and England have solved this problem with immigration (which barring another bout of xenophobia will keep us afloat), Europe as somewhat xenophobic is not far on the path and may just abandon it. Japan could not import the labor to man its production floors and had to export its production capital to where the labor is, and make sure this labor exports their production to Japan by indenturing their employers and governments in debt.

Japan is already flirting with an overall trade deficit after maintaining a deficit with the rest of Asia since 1998. Japan will recover consumer spending as soon as the "supply side" reforms price in their people and price out Americans. The Japanese are running quite a trade deficit when viewed in terms of goods volumes. The monetary distortions the Japanese have fomented are masking the volume trade deficit with low prices and with income flows from investment abroad. Japan seems to have beaten Europe to the debt trap punch bowl using the dollar rather than just yen alone. Europe's trap door is shutting as capital flees to the US and South America, while we in the US are still "enjoying" a partnership with Japan.

Europe also still undergoing a transition of its internal debt from dollar denomination to euro denomination. As it does so, it needs to import dollars to pay down the debts, and produce euro as contracts are re-denominated in local currency. Despite the low growth in euro monetary aggregates, which are largely irrelevant to anything in particular, the process inevitably produces an excess of euro assets, and a shortage of dollars.

Europe is also suffering from this as it exacerbates the oil problem with higher crude prices for the Saudi and North Sea Brent style heavy crude (now at $30+ despite its high sulfur content – expensive to get rid of the sulfur) used in EU refineries, and leaves WTI style light crude used in US refining at $28. As US refining margins rose and they are operating at capacity, the EU (having excess refining capacity due to heavy taxes on gasoline having reduced demand relative to refining capacity) has started exporting distillates to the US to make some margin, and have increased the demand for the trashy crudes. These are trading at an unusual premium to lighter crudes because US refining is maxed out and can't absorb any more oil. The EU is thus gearing to export distillates to the US, pocketing the refining margin less the transport cost, but having to pay a $4 premium per barrel for which all Europeans are paying at the gas pump, and which harms the EU dollar trade balance before the distillate exports help it.

I am certain that the Iraqi halt of light crude (used in the US – of all places) exports is intended to reverse the price premium by creating a shortage in the US market, thus helping Iraq with the eroding purchasing power of its euro denominated balances in the UN trust accounts. The Saudis, in the meantime are happy to stick Europe with the premium and force Europe to pay in dollars that they need for internal financial adjustments resulting from the euro transition.

Despite all we read from FOA on Europe's monetary discipline, its isolation and its potential deals with Arab oil and even some dealings with South America, the current reality of Europe is quite dyspeptic, and much more so on the financial side than any other. They are suffering the inevitable outcome of their currency union which has to be inflationary, while pointing the finger of blame at the US for the inflation despite two decades of largely deflationary domestic monetary policy. In the meantime, Japan, the true international inflator, is being ignored as irrelevant and "trapped into producing for the American markets" while it actually runs a slight and falling monetary trade surplus and a growing real goods deficit.

Seems to me that the upper hand is Japanese, and the dismal result of their investment in EU assets, though it may have been a trap by the EU, seems much more like a raid against Europe by Japan, similar to those done on Asia, S. America, and more recently in the US. So far, the trend is out of Europe, where the monetary authorities, even if honestly supportive of free markets, are neutralized by the socialist aspirations of politicians from 4 of the 4 largest EU area economies, soon to be 3 of 4 who reluctantly pat tax and regulatory reform on the back rather than embrace it, trying to keep their distance. As a result, Europe is bleeding capital as its corporations and investors put their funds anywhere but in Europe, even the loss tolerant Japanese funded investors are leaving, and unemployment is resuming its pre-investment boom levels.

The EU prohibition on the ongoing genetic engineering revolution in agriculture will leave its bungling leadership far behind as the rest of the world grows agricultural productivity and wealth to heretofore unimagined heights. It is a case in point of the EU political structure being in counter trend mode to anything of value developing in the world at large.

JMBR POWELL#5560606/07/01; 16:48:39

Jim Pulplava's 31 pages!

Hey Rich, does it say anything we don't already know?
beestingChristian # 55442#5560706/07/01; 16:54:01

Part of your post:
Christian (06/05/01; 20:31:05MT - msg#: 55442)
Input needed

Mail message

I paid $125.00 an acre for 967 acres of cut over woodland with good road access to
most of it. If thinned the growth of the value of the wood will increase every year
$100.00 instead of the $1.60 an acre of the unthinned acerage. I have 200 acres done
and to do the other 767 acres will take me about 10 years. The last 2.5 years it cost me
$14,600 to live and operation cost of thinning. My equipment is a chainsaw, circular
blade brush cutter, pruner, old pickup and a ladder. How do I finance my 10 years of
future thinning without going to the bank, log the place off or gample on some paper trade.[unsnip]

beesting, Sir, I have thought long and hard about your post. First I have to pass along what my economics instructor told us back in my school days:
" For any business to be successful ""4"" things are required,(including farming) all equally important:"
1. Resources.(Land, water,climate,whatever that type of business requires)
2. Labor.
3. Good Management.
4. Capital.(Money)

Now lets say you Sir Christian can already supply some of the above.

From what you described in your post # 55442 it seems you have trees but would like to clear some of them to plant blue berries or other growing things. As you described clearing by yourself would take a long time.
Here is my thought:
Why not offer " A Cut Your Own Firewood"business to the public.
You mark the trees you want cut and sell your fire wood at slightly under prevailing rates. Also for those that cannot or will not cut their own firewood you cut and stack a supply for them(If you're able) and sell at prevailing rates(Yes it is very hard work). Spend a little to advertise in the area closest to you that would bring customers to you. (A close urban area?)

As the firewood is sold and the land cleared semi-mature blueberry bushes could be purchased and planted as the budget allows.

If you decided to utilize all your wood branches(Slash) you could rent a "chipper machine" once a month, grind up the slash and sell it for mulch, in time. Or if you get to the point where you have a semi-load of "Chips" and it is economical sell the chips to the closest paper mill or buyer of wood chips, this may require quite a few phone calls and a lot of work loading a semi by hand, truckers may have some other suggestions on loading.
Anyway just some thoughts, enjoy your posts,good luck.
If any extra money is left over after firewood Gold....Thanks for Reading.....beesting.

R PowellJMB#5560806/07/01; 17:12:25

I don't know. I'll read the rest of it quickly while you tell me everything that we already know. Then I'll compare and tell all if there's anything new. We do communicate and assimilate as a collective, no? Resistence is futile!
Tough question. Even on a good day I only know about half. On bad days I don't know what I don't know so I can't even quess how much is known.
Go gold, silver, GATA, soybeans and lumber!

auspecSQUEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeZZE #5560906/07/01; 17:36:13

What's YOUR favorite??
BoxmanLord of the Rings lovers, Discovery Channel, and Cavan Man#5561006/07/01; 17:38:30

Some months ago, there was discussion of the Lord of the Rings. This link is for Gandalf the White, and others that were involved.

As an aside, I noticed that tomorrow evening, at midnight, the Discovery Channel is showing "Worlds Deepest Goldmine", examining the Anglogold mine in Africa. Set those VCR's.

Cavan, you stated **Hague not to be trusted anyway a "Maggie" NOT**. Right you are. Heck, the poor simp couldn't even carry her jock.

MarkeTalkOf Gold Eagles and Confiscation#5561106/07/01; 17:42:31

The lively discussion about the definition of U.S. Gold Eagles as numismatic coins has come to my attention. As a trained attorney and co-author of the Confiscation Memorandum, I would like to offer my opinion on the subject.

The provisions of U.S. law under discussion are found at 31 U.S.C. Sections 5132 and 5134. When Congress enacted the law covering the minting of U.S. Gold and Silver Eagles, it decided to choose a distinctive name. Section 5134 is titled "Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund." Contained in that section, subsection (a)(3) defines "numismatic item" as "any medal, proof coin, uncirculated coin, bullion coin, or other coin specifically designated by statute as a numismatic item." Congress simply repeated the dictionary definition of "numismatic" meaning pertaining to coins or medals. The word "numismatic" comes from the Greek word "nomisma" meaning coin or money.

The operation of the Fund is found in Section 5132 which is entitled "Administrative." A close reading of the language reveals the intent of Congress for establishing the law to mint gold and silver coins. Congress needed a mechanism by which the money from the sale of gold and silver coins would be allocated to a certain account in order to help pay down the national debt. Absent such an accounting mechanism, all money from such sales would otherwise flow into the general fund and thus defeat the purpose of Congress. In short, what we have here is an accounting mechanism created by Congress which directs the flow of money from selling gold and silver coins to the public.

Now contrast the foregoing with the concept of "collectible coins of rare and unusual value." After the confiscation on April 5, 1933, this language in late December 1933 was used to distinguish common gold bullion coins which were made illegal from the collectible and permissible gold bullion coins. The whole purpose of the confiscation was to prevent U.S. citizens from competing against the value of the paper U.S. Dollar by holding gold during an economic crisis. President Roosevelt had formulated other plans to inflate the country out of the Depression and gold could not stand in the way.

Now if the government made a distinction in 1933 between which coins were permissible and which ones were not, don't think for one minute that any such language contained in a 1986 law, which declares U.S. Gold Eagles to be numismatic, would make them immune from confiscation. We are dealing with two separate issues. In an economic emergency with a skyrocketing gold price, our government would resort to almost any measures. Furthermore, in issuing an Executive Order (which is what usually happens),the Executive branch could rely on the same legal precedent as did FDR, confiscate all modern bullion coins (whether designated "numismatic" or not) and leave the "collectible" pre-1933 (both U.S. and European) alone. In the unlikely event of a complete ban on all gold coins, a possessor of pre-1933 coins could rely on the Eminent Domain Clause of the Fifth Amendment to exact a fair price even if the government chose to "fix" the bullion value of gold at a certain level.

I believe this foregoing line of reasoning to be sound because of another glaring "error" which appears in 31 U.S.C. 5132(2)(C)(ii). In Congress' attempt to make the U.S. coins more appealing than their foreign counterparts, the lawmakers designated them to be "legal tender." Now anyone who knows case law (as well as maintaining a healthy dose of common sense) knows that you can't use gold or silver in everyday transactions. Gold was made illegal back in 1933 and effectively demonetized by Richard Nixon in 1971 when he took the U.S. off the gold standard by severing the link between gold and the U.S. Dollar. With regard to legal tender status under the 1986 Act, only a fool or an idiot would pay a $50 bill with a $50 face value U.S. Gold Eagle with spot gold at $266.50.

Another argument which bolsters my case. Just look at the wording on the front of our paper currency: "This Note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." That statement pretty much says it all. And I believe that U.S. economic history shows banning gold through confiscation is an all-to-ready vehicle to be employed when times really get rough. If Thailand and South Korea leaned on their people to turn in their gold coins and bars in 1997, then it can happen here in the U.S. as well.

George Cooper

justamereBearMarke Talk#5561206/07/01; 17:59:12

Not being a lawyer, or even a citizen of the US, my common sense about governments, makes your opinion only confirm what I had thought.

Is it not true, however, that Roosevelt was on pretty shaky ground in making that order, and that probably the only reason it succeeded was that the order was never challanged?


auspecNow We Have 'Black Budgets'??#5561306/07/01; 18:23:27

'Tiny' Snippet From LeMetropole Cafe

This comes from Catherine Austin Fitts, who has been the victim of quite the run-in with the USG:

HUD: The Candy Store of Covert Revenues

"HUD is the candy story of covert revenues"
-attributed to Oliver North by Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin Ret., Office of Naval Intelligence


As I read the postings at Le Metropole Café, one of the questions that I ask myself is where the Treasury and the Federal Reserve got the money or credit they needed to support intervention in the commodity and capital markets.

I have wondered whether there is any connection to the growing reports of "missing money" at various federal agencies from fiscal 1998 on, including the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD).

After all, sources and uses have to match up.


The Inspector General (IG) of HUD is responsible, under the Chief Financial Officer's Act, to make sure the department produces audited financial statements for each fiscal year by March 1 of the following year. According to the HUD IG HUD has not been able to balance its books with Treasury since fiscal 1998.

The IG reports unexplained adjustments of $17 billion in fiscal 1998, $59 billion in fiscal 1999, and declines to provide data on the amounts of unexplained adjustments in 2000. For fiscal 1999, the HUD IG refused to produce audited financials, as required by law. After quietly publishing fiscal 2000 audited financials, the HUD IG resigned unexpectedly last month.

HUD's financial statements report open access by HUD insiders and contractors to the systems, allowing them to change original data entries without there being an audit trail in the accounting system. According to the IG, there is no audit trail for fiscal 1998 due to the method of accounting system conversions employed by outside contractors. These contractors, employees and other representatives of which have not all had the appropriate background investigations have not been able to reconcile HUD's cash balances over a three-year period.

HUD reports that its main contractor for the installation and maintenance of financial systems and software is American Management System (AMS), which has been paid $206 million so far to install and maintain HUD's new integrated accounting system, HUDCAPS, since 1993. Due to problems with this system, HUD's CFO has proposed replacing HUDCAPS with off-the-shelf software.

While the notion of explaining events away with "it's a computer glitch" might work for a system that is two or three years old, it does not work for a system that has not been working but not performing for eight years.

HUD has not fired AMS or asked AMS to return any or all of the $206 million in contract payments for AMS's work. HUD does not intend to reconcile what is approaching $100 billion or more of unexplained adjustments to its books. HUD's Office of Inspector General, it is reported, maintains that unreconciled taxpayer funds are not "missing," they are merely "unaccounted for."

AMS works on a platform of information and payment systems run by Lockheed-Martin, a Bethesda, Maryland based defense contractor, with support from Reston, Virginia-based DynCorp. Dyncorp, a company primarily serving as a government contractor in the security, defense and information systems areas, has thousands of employees serving a variety of government agencies, including the Department of Justice, US Army, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Department of State, NASA and HUD. DynCorp, in turn, has the lead on the HUD Inspector General systems. Lockheed is the largest US government defense contractor, with total annual revenues from HUD of well over $100 million a year.

DynCorp is the contractor that has been attracting so much attention recently for its activities in drug eradication and support of military operations in Colombia. This includes disclosure this week by Associated Press that one of its subcontractors, Eagle Aviation Services and Technology Inc., was a company that secretly ran arms for Oliver North in Nicaragua during Iran-Contra.

A review of recent 10-K filings with the Securities & Exchange Commission indicate that Lockheed, DynCorp and AMS have no problem producing high performance information, accounting systems and financial statements at reasonable cost for their own operations.


I am told that there are numerous ways to use a federal agency to access "black budget’ revenues. I don't pretend to understand all of them. Whenever I used to hear descriptions of the fraud and black budget funding coming out of HUD directly or in HUD programs, I was baffled as to how fraud on such a scale could be achieved operationally without a variety of folks knowing about it.

I have spent time with retired senior intelligence officials in recent years. As I listen to their stories of using HUD for covert revenues and black budget funding, I am convinced that, although I am in no position to judge the merits of their individual reports, they can't all be making them up. They describe a type and level of systemic fraud that explains the financial losses and uneconomic transactions that was the mess I tried to "clean up" as Assistant Secretary of Housing at HUD from 1989-90 and as the President of a company serving as a financial advisor to HUD from 1993-97 during the Clinton Administration.

One strong indication of the accuracy of some of the fraud reports is the fact that my success at stopping fraud in the HUD portfolio was rewarded by my being fired by the Bush Administration in 1990 and my company's and my being targeted and financially destroyed by the Department of Justice (DOJ) during the Clinton Administration. (For these stories, see LeMetropole Café postings:11/12/00 Catherine Austin Fitts - Government Spends Millions in Campaign to Silence Former Wall Street Banker, served at The Dos Passos Table and 4/28/01, "Thankless Task" by Paul M. Rodriguez, served at The Hemingway Table.)

My "lesson learned" from being tarred and feathered first by the Republican and then the Democratic "powers-that-be" in Washington is that there is a broad consensus supporting the running of HUD for the benefit of special interests, irrespective of the governing law or obligations to taxpayers. END

Comment: If a guy with a three initial handle comes on right after this post and rants and raves please try to humor him.

RossLconfiscation#5561406/07/01; 18:41:35

They can confiscate my gold coins when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers!!!!
OROHenri and Belgian - banking in the age of high Islam#5561506/07/01; 18:43:30

During the age of high Islam, as Iberia and Constantinopol fell to Islam, it was funded unawares by Jewish banking then active in all the port cities of the mediteranean. This Islamic expansion was the result of the casual invitation to Jews to come from Southern Europe and reestablish business in Islamic lands, where they could, and did lend, and do so unfettered since Islam did not impose itself nor its laws on infidels. Definitely not on friends.

This is what prompted the Ottomans to invite Jews being thrown out of Europe (Italy, England, later Spain during the early hey-day of the Ottomans) into their empire, which expanded by the grease of credit. Contrary to Spain, which threw out the Jews because of religious reasons, Italian states and England did so in order to protect their newly instituted bankers from competition in return for large scale lending to the princes and the favorites of the Church. The Spanish suffered from the lack of effective banking due to the uniquely incompetent ruling family and the Church's choices for bankers there. The lack of effective banking destroyed the country's industries before they were formed.

Only when the Medici took over the Church did it fall silent on the matter of banking, something they otherwise charged much for.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeRoss L @ confiscation#5561606/07/01; 19:07:21

Everyone understands the sentiment! Try to hand it off to someone you like before that happens. Always wondered what the real stories were behind all the ancient caches of gold and silver coins discovered. If the coins could only talk!
Orville Goldenbacherfree plug for GATA on ebay......#5561706/07/01; 19:52:43

just an idea 4 ebay user's

I had a thought, what if we mentioned GATA every time we made a + feedback comment on ebay. it's cheap advertising for a good cause. people would notice. I am going to start mentioning GATA on every ebay + comment from now on, couldn't hurt a thing.

Go Gold, Go GATA AAA+++++


VanRipGold Confiscation. How? All#5561806/07/01; 19:53:05

If the government ever decides to confiscate gold, how would they go about getting it? How would they find out who has it? My folks and their working stiff friends had no gold back in '33, so I heard no stories growing up about how the government went about it. Threats? Would they arm twist MK, etc. and make him tell to whom he has sold gold? How?
CanuckRoyal Canadian Mint#5561906/07/01; 20:18:35

I was working in the west end of Ottawa one day about 2 weeks ago. While sitting in the lobby of a clients' office leafing through a book about Ottawa I saw a photo of 400oz. bars at the Royal Canadian Mint. This afternoon I was downtown and came upon Sussex Drive. I quickly parked the van and began chatting with the young pup at the front gate. She boasted that the main display in the boutique shop had (5) 400 oz. bars worth a million dollars.

I'm sure my eyes were larger than hers and so I raced into the Mint, ran up the stairs and followed the tour in progress. Off to the side I saw the display case. On various length pedestals sat the five 'good delivery' bars, one was 398.542 (the disapponting runt) and the other 4 were over 400, the largest at 408 and change.

The five bars at 2000+ ounces X (almost) $500 CDN was a million bucks. I had my nose a millimeter from the glass, about a foot from the gold; I could almost smell it.

I so dearly wanted to hold own of those golden bars. I left as quickly as I had arrived and it has been on my mind since.

Crazed Canuck.

JMBCANUCK#5562006/07/01; 21:06:39

Take a cold shower.
beestingGold Confiscation!#5562106/07/01; 21:14:22

Has everyone seen the Gold coins that are worn by mostly woman as neck pendants? My Cat Lady wife has a few of those and enjoys very much wearing them in public.

Now, it has been said by many that pound for pound the un-tame-able Wildcats that originated in the Highlands of Scotland when angry or cornered are the most ferocious beast ever to walk the face of this fair earth.Many of the Scottish clans display replicas of this beast.

Now if anyone is interested in seeing an armed, angered, ferocious Scottish Wildcat with all its fury unleashed at once, try to confiscate my wifes Gold pendant coins. I don't want to see it, thank you. The picture comes to my mind of "Bad" Bad" Leroy Brown, Badest Man in the Whole D..... Town, at the very end of the old song about him.

Moral of the story, a fully armed populace, like we have in the U.S. right now scares the H... out of American jackboot clad storm troopers, because of the sheer numbers, believe it......beesting.

Carl HKreieren Undergang#5562206/07/01; 21:26:02

Can anyone on this board actually verify the existance of the book called "Kreieren Undergang" by Alan Greenspan? It is not currently lised in Books in Print.
US_Army(RET)VanRip, et. al. - Gold Confiscation. How? All...#5562306/07/01; 21:40:19

One of greatest family dark "secrets" (in addition to one of the great, great, …, aunties, be hung in Salem as a "witch") is the story of the giant rampage my grand father went on when he discovered my grandmother had taken all the family "gold" down to the bank following the "proclamation" for all good Americans to turn in their "piles" (or else). Never heard another adverse word about the man.

Expect many other "good Americans" also complied voluntarily…likely more then "didn't". Maybe times were different then and people in general had more of a sense of patriotism or greater public "consciousness." ---

Don't really know for sure, but I too have some questions…am not certain I would feel like much like of criminal if somehow my hoard remained "hidden" in today's political environment and a "confistication order" went out.

I do wonder about what the current rules are (if any) about what kind of reporting or record keeping is required by PM "dealers" for all gold sales/purchases? What "proof" would be required to show if trade/sale made outside US (other then normal IRS reqmts. – which is not too specific).

I for one, live close (1 hour by ferry – two by car) from Canada. "Overseas" sales/purchases/storage would be difficult to control. Does Canada have any current reporting/recording requirements for Au/Ag exchanges? --- Anyone know a reputable dealer in Vancouver, BC. I can discuss with on next visit?

Am sorry to admit this latent "criminal" intent, but would have a hard time rationalizing turning in my hard earned, "hard" assets so the Pol's of today can build more outrageously priced toilet seats or cruise missiles or worse. (i.e. public $ support of over sea's fascist and criminal political regimes.)

Sincerely, --- a potential criminal.


NetkingAg#5562406/07/01; 21:40:55

Silver - Link of 8 graphs, showing historical & recent.
Even if there's 500 million ounces out there it's going to disappear fast. Even faster if it's taken off the table quickly.

It's well past the case of "IF" and now the case of "WHEN"!

Beesting(55621) This is where for a serious investment holding, some off shore is a good stategy. It's hard to regulate all of the Au markets the same way atthe same time.

GalearisUS_ArmyRET#5562506/07/01; 21:51:46

bullion sales in Canada

If you purchase from a bullion bank in Canada be prepared to leave a paper trail a mile wide. They take your visa number, home address (and verify all) before you recieve your purchase. There are also bar charges added on. No tax, however. I would recommend finding a coin dealer who also deals in bullion. They take your money only and REALLY understand discretion. They only ask your name to be friendly, (use an alias, if you are worried) and are very often more competitive in price too.

The problem for you would be the border crossing. One never knows with THOSE people.

Mine uses Kitco rates then undersells their asking price. However, I live in Ontario and B.C. and points east may be slightly different.


Black BladeGold Confiscation? Not on My Life - RE: ORO and jon#5562606/07/01; 22:01:12

WOW! A lot of posts on gold and confiscation (like stirring up a hornet nest). It is quite an interesting subject and can really get people excited as the prospect of the government denying the people ownership of gold, or most anything for that matter, is a strong point of contention. Today's US gold owners are not quite the compliant serfs as the US citizen of the early 1930's perhaps. Confiscation could be difficult to enforce today.


Just a couple of quick notes.

I read that post twice and still find something new. I will have to wade through that post again ;-)I find the idea of IRA/401K loans for real estate mortgages, and if I'm correct, buying the paper to back the mortgage to more or less "double dip" by gaining on self paid interest on the loans, gaining tax benefits and all this while maintaining a tax deferred status on those funds. I will have to think on this as I reread that. Sounds quite intriguing though. I will have to clip and save that part for further study.

The EU oil distillate imports are about the only way to keep US inventories higher. Refineries and pipelines are at capacity and it is not permissible to mix any of the 91 differing grades of environmentally mandated fuels, so the refinery and pipeline shipment planning is a virtual nightmare. I also see that there have been renewed protests at EU refineries lately. I am still a bit skeptical about the Euro. I also have my doubts that The Euro will survive. Too many cooks spoiling the broth as it were. There are 12 countries with different cultures, different languages, different politics, different financial policies, etc. I don't know how long fiscal discipline can be maintained among all those players.

RE: Jon

Sorry but I am not all that familiar with Golconda's mining operations. I do know that they are or were exploring/working in Saskatchewan in some ultramafic sequence deposits for PGMs and metals such as chromite, nickel, copper, etc. I know that they were sniffing around for gold and silver north of Tonopah, Nevada for a time, however, nothing much has been happening there lately except a bit of mining at Round Mtn. (JV project - Echo Bay and Homestake). Actually Equatorial Mine(?) (formerly owned by Phelps Dodge - Cyprus), a copper mine north of Tonopah just closed recently. Looks like Tonopah, Nevada will be a ghost town soon. It is a tough environment for mining these days.

I think that PGM prices could be static for a while as auto sales are slowing due to a general pull back in the overall economy. I am holding some mining shares, though I am more inclined to make any new purchases in physical, at least until the "climate" improves for mining shares. I think that could be quite a long time now - especially for N. American gold mining shares, and particularly for hedged miners who lock in forward sales at these ridiculously low prices. I like living on the edge as much as the next guy, but sheesh.

- Black Blade

NetkingUS_Army(RET) - Confiscation#5562706/07/01; 22:19:01,3604,496820,00.html

If they wanted to(and it's a IF)they have the resources to do so efficiently. Me or you as a Au investor would not be hard to track down. For people to say "never" to confiscations with much respect to them is unwise(IMHO), it's also to forget history. It's happened before & it can happen again, particularly given extreme circumstances such as are going to possibly unfold in the days ahead.

One of the ways to track Au/Ag bugs apart from the obvious & logical channels is through the Echelon network.(As per the above link)I wonder if "Gold/Silver" is or will become a key word in their eavesdropping in the days ahead <grin>.

Black BladeMorgan Stanley in Sneak Attack, Dips into Power Sector#5562806/07/01; 22:34:16


Faced with rising prices and rolling blackouts, BPA officials, utility execs and lawmakers, view the US $18 million deal with varying degrees of suspicion. Most of the concern focuses on whether Morgan Stanley could manipulate the flow of energy into the Northwest, though federal regulatory rules would make that difficult. "We are concerned," said Shepard Buchanan, a spokesman for BPA's transmission side. "We don't want anyone gaming the market by controlling the "transmission) system. We will keep a close eye on Morgan Stanley and others."

Black Blade: It is generally suspected that large investment banks have manipulated PMs and continue to do so. Now it could be that possible energy manipulation will be next. Another "Tip of the Iceberg?"

US_Army(RET)...banking in the age of high Islam#5562906/07/01; 22:37:17

Oro, Henri, and Belgian,

Some good points made in your posting on "banking in the age of high Islam" --- helps debunk the ongoing "myth" of the Islamic tendency of "forcing" its beliefs and system on others. In fact, historically, just the opposite is true. Not just Spain, but all of Europe, with full support of the "Church" invented and propagated 700 years of the "Inquisition" primarily as a tool of asset appropriation and wiping out the Jewish and Muslim populations of Europe and destroying a proven just economic system.

The Islamic economic system "Maqasid" --- based on the following ideals,

1.Need Fulfillment. - assure everyone a standard of living that is humane and respectable.
2.Respectable source of earning. - Need fulfillment must be through individual's own effort.
3.Equitable distribution of income and wealth. - $ do not only circulate among the rich.
4.Growth and stability.

Replacing it with the foundations of the forced fiat enslavery we find ourselves in today, which was created solely to control the masses and enrich the few. (in many ways the "Inquisition" continues today.)

Again, owning gold is the path to freedom and long term security for all. --- as it will eventually bring down the debauched financial system we has been "enslaving" us for the last couple of hundred years.

Only a system that is based on the principals of "Masqasid" (a just economic system) will endure.



US_Army(RET)NetKing - "Echelon"#5563006/07/01; 22:53:12,3604,496820,00.html

Interesting article on "Echelon"!

Have long suspected I would be one of the first marched off to the next great "concentration" camps (for a number of reasons) that will one day have to be created by our "benevolent government" to get its more "radical thinking and acting" citizens under control, or to get rid of them all together.

Participating on this forum probably guarantees it.


Black BladeNew Jobless Claims Near 9-Year High#5563106/07/01; 22:55:18


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. labor market continued to weaken into early June, with more Americans applying for jobless benefits for the first time, suggesting the world's richest economy faces a slower and more difficult recovery than many analysts had foreseen. The number of initial applications for state jobless benefits shot up to its highest level in almost nine years last week, the government said on Thursday. ``I think these numbers show that the probability of a ''V''-shaped recovery is diminishing almost daily,'' said Anthony Chan, Chief Economist at Banc One Investment Advisers in Columbus, Ohio. Initial claims rose to 432,000 in the Memorial Day holiday-shortened week ended June 2, from 419,000 the prior week, the Labor Department said. They have not been this high since the week of Sept. 19, 1992, when they stood at 438,000 as the U.S. economy was struggling to emerge from the 1990-91 recession.

Black Blade: It looks more like a "l" -shaped plunge to me. This is actually good news if one is to believe the spin - "the bad news is out" so everything is just "Peachy" now. These higher unemployment numbers signal to me that the economy is not quite so robust, and far from healthy.

OROBlack Blade - Euro survival#5563206/07/01; 23:08:13

The euro is a political beast rather than an economic one. Thus its economic performance is secondary to its political performance. So long as it is not a total and utter failure, it will survive in European use, if nothing else, then because it will be required for paying taxes, sort of like tally sticks (they lasted for nearly 400 years though they could only be used to pay taxes).

The purposes of the euro internally vary depending on which supporter group you look at. For the inheritors of DeGaulle and Rueff, the purpose is independence from the dollar, if not competition with it. For the Eurocracy, it is the potential means for Brussels to obtain infinite funding to go along with its NATO ex US military. For the ECB economic well wishers, and business, it is supposed to bring about jurisdictional competition on matters of tax and regulation so as to lower the harmful effects of both. For the EU governments, the political class in general, it is an opportunity to cartelize government services so that people and particularly businesses will not have the opportunity to shop for the best government for the tax burden because all governments can impose a standardized package. Bankers, of course, want to be free of competition among currencies for quality, stability, and flexibility, they most definitely got what they wanted, and are the only sure beneficiaries of the EU.

In order for the "free market" faction to see its version of Europe rise, they have only to win France (not bloody likely unless Paris undergoes massive death from some plague) or Germany (much more likely). There is a possibility for BENELUX, Italy and Austria to join in some combination to thwart the combined Grance or Fermany socialist axis by resisting their agenda till there is success in isolating one from the other. If Europe breaks the socialist axis (or it melts of its own, as it seems to be doing in Germany within the socialist party itself), then competition will have already become the main mode of transnational politics. Once engaged, jurisdictional competition is unlikely to be stopped.

The EU isolationist concepts of taking the EU onto a single currency in order to gain independence from the dollar and of them being "self sufficient" are both wrong economically, though they might make sense politically. Independence from the dollar can be obtained much more effectively by renegging on the IMF agreements and using gold without any national or regional denomination for the monetary base. The idea of self sufficiency in a globally networked economy where critical corporate resources are bought on the open markets denies Europe its potential and condemns its economies to become second world economies where specialization is not shared with the world of 1.2-1.3 billion workers, but only within a world of 250 million - the cost is 30% of potential economic development, and the cost to the rest of the world is 4% of potential.

SHIFTYUS_Army(RET) #5563306/07/01; 23:23:04


You wont be alone.


Black BladeGas-field report fuels controversy#5563406/07/01; 23:29:53,1002,33%257E43682,00.html


WASHINGTON - The Bush administration faces more obstacles than expected in tapping a large natural-gas field in Colorado and Wyoming, a government study said Wednesday. Nearly 68 percent of the recoverable 160 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in the region lies under land either closed to exploration or under "significant restrictions," the new study says. President Bush's energy policy earlier claimed 40 percent of the available resources were restricted.

Black Blade: There used to be a bumper sticker a few years ago that read: "Let The Bast##ds Freeze in the Dark." We might see that bumper sticker's prediction come true for a number of reasons that are beginning to converge that will result in a severe energy crisis. Good article covering pro and con elements.

Black BladeRE: ORO - Euro-land#5563506/07/01; 23:43:13

Some EU countries appear to be more of a risk than others as far as the Euro is concerned. It could be said that Italy for example may be the "Weakest Link" as Italy has had a dismal history of fiscal discipline. Germany had been a leader in Europe with a strong Deutsche mark for many years or even the UK with their relatively strong "Brit Slider" (Pound). It would be good for European trade if it works, however, I await what I think will be the inevitable "skunk in the perfume factory" as it is likely at least one or more major Euro participants will eventually divert from the game plan. We shall see how well it works soon enough. Cheers!

- Black Blade

Black BladeTribal Stations Sell Cheaper Gas#5563606/07/01; 23:58:22

Tribal Gasoline Stations Are Selling Cheaper Fuel, Making Motorists happy


SANTO DOMINGO PUEBLO, N.M. (AP) -- It's mid-afternoon on a Friday, and the line of cars, trucks and sport utility vehicles stretches from the shiny new gas pumps out to the road. ``We've been like this since about 10:30 this morning,'' said station manager Sebastian Lovato, watching drivers jockey for position at the 14 pumps. Customers find it worth the wait. Gasoline is $1.45 a gallon for regular and $1.59 for premium at the tribal-owned station -- a savings of at least 30 cents a gallon over prices in Santa Fe, 25 miles away. Gas stations on tribal lands are making motorists happy, but giving state officials headaches. In New Mexico, the sale of gasoline on Indian lands is exempt from the 17-cents-a-gallon state gasoline tax, although tribes impose a tax of their own. With no land costs and less governmental red tape to contend with, Santo Domingo Pueblo's operation can easily undercut their off-reservation competitors.

Black Blade: And you should see the people buying shopping carts full of tax-free tobacco products. I have seen shopping centers on the Rez (Free Trade Zones?) filled with shoppers buying tax-free goods. I don't suppose that Sir Fulchino has this problem in New England.

Black BladeSummer Electricity Prices in Eastern U.S. to Rise: Outlook#5563706/08/01; 00:10:14


New York, May 26 (Bloomberg) -- Wholesale electricity prices in much of the U.S. may surge this summer because of hot weather and higher natural gas costs, though they'll be well below California's soaring rates, analysts said. While chronic power shortages and blackouts sent prices up eightfold in California over last year, prices east of the Rocky Mountains may rise 25 percent to 100 percent, analysts said. Most of that gain is based on expectations for higher air conditioner use after last year's cooler-than-normal summer.

Black Blade: Could be an interesting year, especially as higher energy costs sweep across the US "Bread basket" in the Midwest and the Eastern industrial complex. However, it won't really be a problem as I suppose that the talking heads will focus only on the "Core-Rate" of inflation. "Interesting" article.

Black BladePound hits 15-year low against dollar #5563806/08/01; 00:26:57


THE pound tumbled to a 15-year low against the dollar yesterday, as fears grew that a second Labour landslide would push Britain inexorably down the road towards joining the single European currency. Sterling fell below the psychologically important $1.40 mark, losing more than 1.5 cents to $1.3938 by the close in London - levels not seen since February 1986. The fall was sparked by press reports that prime minister Tony Blair would follow an election victory by pressing ahead with an early campaign for British membership of the euro.

Black Blade: The problems for the Slider seem to be occurring even though the stockpiles of UK gold are being sold off for "diversification" of reserves. Hmmm... Yeah, that worked like a charm.

working-kirkfrom my cold dead hands#5563906/08/01; 00:44:17

Good for You RossL, however when it my time to go, I plan on taking it with me. As you know my form of gold is in musical instruments. I plan to having my horns buried with me so I have something to play in Gabriel's horn section.
And for those doubt I will have the ability to play when I'm am dead, well I found out (and made many medical records) I was able to play in a coma. I have no doubt I be playing after I am gone. I also plan to take a gold coin or two. That is due to my knowledge of greek myths. Charon the god who led the spirits of the dead to the afterlife demanded money to board his ferry. If you didn't have it talk about bad luck. This practice goes on today and Hindu Indians are
buried with a grain of gold placed on their tongue.

I figure taking it with me is one way to get the government from confiscating it.

> RossL (06/07/01; 18:41:35MT - msg#: 55614)
> confiscation

> They can confiscate my gold coins when they pry them from > my cold, dead fingers!!!!

UsulThought of the day...#5564006/08/01; 01:03:27

The Great Depression did not start with a Great Depression
Peter AsherSome early Posts and excerpts on confiscation. #5564106/08/01; 02:04:47

(Re-Y2K) ###My feelings on gold for barter are that if things were so bad that you needed that function, it would be too dangerous to expose the fact that you had any. Remember, the vulnerability of hard asset money is what created banks in the first place. Gold, as an investment or storage of wealth, is another matter entirely. If I had any liquid equity, I would have every bit of it in bullion and coin, and I would safely store it. I'd rather have my gold temporarily out of reach in a safety deposit box, than permanently out of reach in the hands of a crook. I know there is private storage also, but is that truly safe in a collapse? Confiscation doesn't appear to me to be a threat, because there are too many people these days owning things. The officials wouldn't have enough tax-payers left to cover their salaries!

### Whatever might happen in Y2K the government is going to up to it's a-- in so many alligators they won't even have Gold confiscation on their list. IMO!

#1441 repost
I think that we on the Forum have come to agree that: 1) to achieve a Gold Standard, the metal must be revalued, and 2) regardless of what is holding the price of gold down, the media is not an impartial observer.

*If the price is revalued upward, however, where does the mining of new gold fit in? Would it be a windfall for the mine owners, or would the gold nations have some form of price control? Otherwise what is to prevent the mines from undercutting the declared rate and debasing the currency? If there were price control, what about private ownership?*

Even if there is no confiscation, it could be made criminal to exchange gold at more than a legally fixed rate. This of course would upset the owners of the precious metals, and elected officials might be turned out of office. But Warren Buffet with all his silver has only one vote, and that Tycoon who just bought 160 tons of gold, has his one vote. However each of us who have only a few coins also has one vote, so it comes down to how many of us there are.

If the majority of people don't hold any gold, there will not be enough outcry to prevent confiscation or control. Therefore there is another very big reason to have the media disparage the ownership of gold! Not just to keep the price down, but to prevent the ownership of gold from becoming widespread. If Goldbugs are a minority it won't be the voting masses' ox that is being gored.

So, every convert we win over to the logic and need for survival in owning gold strengthens the citizenry in maintaining their financial independence. Remember, the secular version of the golden rule!


P.S. -- The corollary of this Golden Rule may be more applicable these days. "Whoever Makes The Rules, Gets The Gold!"

working-kirkConfiscation#5564206/08/01; 02:20:04

> Leigh (06/06/01; 07:16:33MT - msg#: 55466)

> Hi, working-kirk! I enjoy reading your messages! You
> always seem to have some great stories.

Thank you. It was my intention to become the next great black writer. Unfortunately, I have yet to be published. The second book I wrote was called: Legal and I speculated what would happen if drugs were legalized like what happened with the probition and repeal of booze. Even through it was unpublished I found it a useful exercise. For one thing I had to extensively research the depression and the parallels of then and now is amazing. I also got to know dealers, the culture and the people and how they think. While I am not involved with drugs and really have nothing to do with the culture, you're be surprised (Well maybe not if you read some of my posts) how street smart it has kept me. And there is gold and silver involved, more with other countries than in the U.S. but it is there. It is a big part The Opium triangle Indoeasian - Turkey - China.
I think of of the link between gold and drugs this way:
Gold is despited by the government and so is the drug trade and it was inevitable these two outcasts get together. One result is you wouldn't believe the number of ways it is possible to hide assets and it gold confiscation comes the knowledge of how to protect will be there. You will have to just look for it. (and in my opinion, I don't think this time numismatic will be safe this time around.)

> When I read your post on confiscation, my heart sank
> because it seemed completely possible. But then I got
> to thinking about how other countries are encouraging
> their citizens to hold precious metals. How would it look
> if a nice Chinese family got arrested over here because
> they were carrying a few Pandas (something completely
> legal in China)? Wouldn't that make us look unreasonable?
> Or if Mexican citizens, who are being encouraged to buy
> silver, were shaken down at the border? We would
> look like the most human rights violating country on
> earth! Think about the new Moslem money! If American
> Moslems want to hold gold dinars, wouldn't the government
> be denying them freedom of religious expression if they
> interfered with that?

> So now my spirits are back up - not because I think the
> U.S. is becoming more reasonable, but because other
> countries are!

I agree other countries are more reasonable. Unforunately I don't think there will be much protest when the U.S. rob their citizens because they are much more concerned over the
U.S. killing their citizens. For instance, when Arizona executed Karl and Walther LaGrand, Germany was upset since they were German nationals and Germany does not have a death penalty. They ask the Hague to intervene.

Or when Bill Clinton decided to violate U.N. Charter Nato rules and lot of other treaties when he decided to bomb Serbia. A lot countries were outrages and wanted to try him as a war criminal and throw him in jail. Fat Chance. There were a lot of people in the United States who wanted to lock Slick up too. But if we couldn't do it, what chance to a foreign country have?

Unfortunately, this country has trampled on all the rights guaruneed by the constitution. Religious freedoms, the right to be secure in property and from unreasonable searches and the fifth amendment right to
be fairly paid for property taken by the government. So if you got gold my advice is to hide it in a place where you or I would never think of looking.

TopazCanuck #5564306/08/01; 04:15:34

For a bit of a fondle, the Perth mint in West Aussie has a glass case with hand-holes in it where you can reach in and (try to) lift a 400 get a really good "feel" for the power to weight ratio of physical Bullion.

Canuck@ Topaz#5564406/08/01; 04:19:25

My flight arrives at 4:00pm this afternoon!!
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeBlack Blade @ power generation#5564506/08/01; 05:06:07

Explained lightning to my son yesterday. He told his mom this morning that "The lighning comes down from the cloud and hits the power lines, and fills the cans with light." I suppose the "cans" are transformers.
ZenideaTopaz#5564606/08/01; 05:36:41

Yes well the rumour was that if one could get that yellow lump of gravity out, one could keep it !(but thats heresay)
Nevertheless I being a MODEST arm wrestler and given its
position in the hole (Physics) I must boast that I managed to nudge it horizontaly at least some thousand amstrongs!.
The only small problem after that was the lump is night on the sise of the hole and there is no room for it and ones wrist/hand. Just this technical Puzzle left ! hehe.

colourofmoneyPeter Asher#5564706/08/01; 06:21:54

Who was that Tycoon that bought 160 tonnes of gold ?
HenriORO Msg 55615#5564806/08/01; 07:13:09

Thank you I guess what you are saying is that without the Jewish bankers, there could not have been any growth or expansion under Islamic economics. Just a perpetual recycling of existing gold/silver reserves.
Al FulchinoFree Trade#5564906/08/01; 07:49:28

Black Blade: And you should see the people buying shopping carts full of tax-free tobacco products. I have seen shopping centers on the Rez (Free Trade Zones?) filled with shoppers buying tax-free goods. I don't suppose that Sir Fulchino has this problem in New England

Me: Sir Black Blade, If there was ever a better educational tool on tax policy and increase in general business welfare that raises all ships it would for all to be handed a 100 dollar bill and all students be told they have this to live on for a week. Aside from the good shopping around techniques we can all employ, the easiest place to save is finding non-tax sales areas, whether they are reservations, non sales tax states such as New Hampshire <plug> or the internet, as long as it lasts.

I have two businesses in a non tax state and three in a sales tax state. If the location is not absolutely outstanding or if you do not have a fairly unique product, you had better hope you are not within 30-50 miles of the tax free state.

In another story that may not seem to follow this thread, but really does: In Massachusetts, they have allowed liquor
stores near the NH border that are allowed to be open seven days in order to stem the outflow of business to NH. The criteria is that you are within ten miles of the border. Do you all see how insane this is? Pack up and sell if u are 10.1 miles away. Tax policy is never ever fair unless it is 100 percent equal and in addition be voted upon by a majority of the citizens.

Enough for now, I have to get to work.

auspecNetking & US_Army{RET} Echelon#5565006/08/01; 07:53:37,3604,496820,00.html

Hello, Gents, thanks for the above link regarding Echelon, the international illegal eavesdropper {hi guys}. I have posted info re Echelon on this Forum to a deafening silence, for whatever reason. Maybe the CIA types and covert operations are all just imaginative, will have to ask Robert Chapman and his sources. Just for the fun of it, let's make sure this message is intercepted by the supercomputers for a readout, here are a few commonly intercerted words:

CIA, POTUS, White House, Illegal Wiretaps

Let's get a million or more folks to ALWAYS use similar words in every phone call, e-mail, fax, or internet use so as to check out the capacity of Echelon. Wonder what it would take to overload it? Can tecnology take on technology?
For a good read on Echelon, from a Christian perspective, the book "Surveillance Society" by Grant R Jeffrey is a real winner. From Frontier Research Publications, Inc., P.O. Box 129, Station "U", Toronto, Ontario M8Z 5M4.
Wonder if "Gold" is a trigger word for these communication voyeurs? It's getting late folks, do you know where your soul is?

SHIFTYauspec #5565106/08/01; 08:05:53


You forgot " KILO "


Buena FeAMEN#5565206/08/01; 08:26:33

Just checked my soul statis with the home office upstairs Auspec.........its still secure, my ambassador credentials are in tact! Wink Wink.

Field orders for today are a repeat of yesterday........spread a little love around to a hurting world!

uponroofWGC New Ad Campaign for Gold in the News Again...#5565306/08/01; 08:28:23


There is a lot of hoopla about this new ad campaign of the WGC. Many press releases and articles in major financial news services. The coverage is good but the real story and the plan (ad campaign) therein creates concern.

The following Paragraph is from the WGC ad campaign article link above.

"...Last year manufacturing of coins plummeted from 133 tons to 46 tons. Sales of gold bars, mainly to investors, slumped 40 tons to 198 tons. Gold used for jewellery stayed ahead of the game, but only just, with demand rising 4pc to 3,175 tons. Gold has a useful role in the manufacture of electronics but the sums involved are small..."

Simply put, coin and bullion sales are down, jewellery is up. This is from their own (WGC) survey information which I presume was gathered in order to form a sound marketing strategy.

Here's my point. Jewellery will always have a market regardless of economics and politics, but coins and bullion are losing ground. The time to sell the public on coins and bullion as a protection of wealth is NOW! We are losing ground in the fight for intrinsic value. Paper is percieved as safer than gold.

There is an INTENTIONAL MARKETING POLICY being implemented by the currency kings of the world. A brainwashing is underway to destroy gold as the primary store of wealth, both practically and pyschologically. Paper and more paper is the answer being given and the world is starting to believe it. "GOLD IS DEAD" is the not so subliminal message gaining acceptance as it dovetails with the emerging 'new age' electronically transfered 'wealth'.

So IMHO, the WGC needs to have a much more agressive counterattack in this epic battle of truly 'biblical proportions'....(James 5:3 "Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days".)

The battle is about whether or not gold will continue to have intrinsic value. It is being fought in the minds of the weak and lazy who want only to exchange paper. The WGC seeing the.. "mission as reeducating people to the virtues of a metal which has offered pleasure and reassurance since first being scraped out of the earth's crust 6,000 years ago" is a step in the right direction, but not nearly far enough.

It is time to go 'mano y mano' with paper. It is time to point out the fallacies of paper. It is time to go to war against paper.

Gold will not win this marketing war until paper is exposed for the risky mirage that it is. Greenspan is providing ample ammunition in the ridiculous printing that goes on night and day.

I am talking about an ad campaign that attacks paper, pointing out international defaults and currency devaluations. Pointing out the incredible over valuations and subsequent horrendous losses in the stock market. Pointing out the trade imbalance, the toppy dollar and approaching collapse.

The battle can be won, but only if you fight it head to head. The time to declare war is now, Pearl Harbor was 30 years ago (1971).


auspecShifty#5565406/08/01; 08:29:24


KILO, thanks!
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker Tapeuponroof#5565506/08/01; 08:38:26

The successful message is worse than "GOLD IS DEAD", it is "GOLD DOESN'T MATTER". I agree with your rant. I am also tired of trying to convince the ignorant of the truth. The hard lesson will be learned by all someday, maybe soon.
Tree in the ForestPhoenix Rising, uponroof, pragmatic, SLATT#5565606/08/01; 08:44:27

A warm welcome to all new posters and welcome back SLATT.
Tree in the ForestBarrick Resources (ABX)#5565706/08/01; 08:55:23

Today, half the stock market is down including many golds. According to "them", it is a computer problem. Yeah right. Meanwhile Barrick Resources continues to hemmorhage badly. I know that gold advocates have no love lost over Barrick but I thought this might interest many of those here. I just found out they have a negative PE. Losses according to one source are $2.00 per share. Another source indicated over $3.00/share. I don't know which is right but either way, it's not good. Meanwhile they have losses from last quarter of 1 billion dollars. Can you believe this? Are these guys actually losing 1 billion dollars per quarter? Didn't someone post that the total PM mining cap was something like 20 billion? And these bozos are losing a billion in a quarter? And with their messed up hedgebook, what happens if POG rises? These guys are toast no matter what happens. Should we cry for their shareholders, or laugh hysterically? I don't know. One thing we do know. The management got theirs. Salary and perks for what, 17 years? What a joke.
MoutainGoldMy Philosophy of Gold#5565806/08/01; 09:00:38

Until the average Americam understands the economic power of Gold, they will love their paper.

The economic magic of Gold is that it is an objextive economic value. Elites can not print Gold. Politicians must supress Gold by calling it archiac and the cause of the Depression.

Average Americans could care less about Gold so politicians who"mock" Gold are on the right side of majority. Gold then is easily manipulated as a cheap source of speculative funds. I read one soiurce claimuing that one mnedium size bank could control Gold for weeks!!

The war between paper and Gold is an ancient one. It is really a freedom issue. A Gold standard would promote general prosperity. The question is why would elites give up real power. The answer is that they will not unless they have to. The current MBA training in most Universities is a "paper" paradigm. Gold is dead and old fashioned.


PS GE Forum claims Greenspan is a lurker.....does he read here!!

GalearisFrom Ted Butler#5565906/08/01; 09:03:57


"There is no question that a deficit in a commodity means the amount of the deficit must be taken from existing inventories. How do you get supplies from inventories in a free market? Only with higher prices. Period. It's impossible to take inventory away from long-term holders with lower and not higher prices. This is the essence of the law of supply and demand. But we, obviously, don't have higher prices in silver, not for the past year, or the past ten years. So, what's going on? It's leasing. Specifically, leasing from places like the Central Bank of the Philippines. They are the only central bank whose silver bars are good delivery on the London Bullion Merchants Association (LBMA)."

>>>>>>> and >>>>>>

"I have received some comment on my unabashedly bullish take on silver, but those arguments center on how much silver may exist in unreported inventories, and at what high price those inventories may become available to the market. It never has anything to do with the deficit or documented inventories. It always has to do with that which cannot be documented. It's always about how much silver is out there, ready to be dumped on the market. But no one is ever able to substantiate any specific quantities. It's always, "there's plenty out there." Or, that there's billions of ounces of silver in India, just waiting to be dumped on the market. Or the Red Chinese Government is dumping silver on the market, for the first time in history, at the lowest prices ever. Ask for verification, and it's like you asked someone to cut off their arm."

uponroofStocks, Lies, and Ticker Tape / MoutainGold#5566006/08/01; 09:28:22

Please.......not another Vietnam........(undeclared war)

Thanks for the feedback.

Time for the WGC (gold industry) to declare war on the paper lords. Problem is their (WGC) chairman (Godsell) is running a paper hedge fund disguised as a gold mine. His loyalty is paper. The plan to 'waste' the 55 million on a 'vanilla' campaign has been calculated. All are happy.... those who don't think we're at war, and those who don't want anyone to know we're at war.

Another good reason to 'declare war' is that it would force those in the WGC with questionable loyalty to step aside.....or else be accused of treason. As it is now, too much grey area and too much room to hide for half of the membership.

IronHeadTree In The Forest - No Volume?#5566106/08/01; 09:36:23

Hi Sir Tree - You raise an interesting point regarding the markets today, which reminds me of an interesting trade I had on last year. Short the Nas with a limit order waaaay below where we were currently at - and kapooow! Looking at the screen showed a low about 50 pts. below where we were hanging; although only lasted for a second, and boing, we were back at the range; the low held for the day, and put a smile on my face. Happened once also on a small S&P too, although only for about 20 pts. Reminded me that most crashes start with LOW volume.

Point being that when all the electronic gizzmos go whackers (don't you love my technical verbage?) and volume dries up, it sometimes makes for interesting times when someone throws a bid, and NO volume catches it. Portense of interesting times when everyone gets a bit scared in front of their screens and freezes up, while a few sharpies suddenly drop the market waaaaay beyond anyones's belief - perhaps whilst we are all sleeping cozily in our beds, one nite under a full moon? Say,,,,,,, late December? Perhaps gold will be 'trading' inversely to equities by then, if only for a short bid, er bit. {grin}


Tree in the ForestConfiscation#5566206/08/01; 09:45:09

I wanted to weigh in with my 2 cents on confiscation. I don't think it will happen. This is not 1934. At that time the dollar was sound (well, sorta. A lot better off than it is now). In particular, there was no Federal debt. Now we have a situation where if the dollar collapses (very unlikely then, very likely now) people will be poor. Government, if it has any brains (yes that's open to doubt) will be trying desperately to get "money" into the hands of the people, not take it away. And that "money" can't be the dollar which is collapsing. I believe an attempt might be made to get the Euro into our hands and confiscate our gold to be replaced by Euro paper. That's a possibility. But I don't think it will work. But "they" would certainly want to try. In the end, I think we will be able to hold onto our gold. Just my 2 cents FWIW.
JMBMOUTAIN GOLD#5566306/08/01; 09:48:33

Your #55658

"PS: GE Forum claims Greenspan is a lurker..."

They probably got that intel from Bob Chapman.

Here's what I heard...GOLDENROD @webtv is Greenspan.

LeighMr. Greenspan and GE#5566406/08/01; 10:12:27

I think Dr. V made a mistake in saying that Greenspan might be a lurker. If he has been lurking, he almost certainly won't continue to do so after this morning. Oh, well...GE's loss may be our gain!
OROHenri - banking's role in early second millenium war#5566506/08/01; 10:20:40

Contrary to common thinking on the subject of banking, the money multiplyer resulting from leverage is not the cause of banking's positive effect. It is the concentration of capital in the hands of a few good investors, and putting them under pressure for performance which allows financing of large projects. One of Islam's great projects was military expansion, which very much proceeded as a commercial one. Soldiers had to be paid before they got the enemy and split the spoils of war. A banker would trade current gold for future gold promised as a result of a military campaign. For the banker war was simply another business to finance, and one where his sovereign (government) was very keen on.

Often, bankers obtained special charters for the period of war or later, after the war as part of the payment. During the war, a banker would be allowed to deliver food and wares to the enemy through the siege lines. The extremely high prices paid by people under siege would be essentially the same as obtaining the booty of war through trade. It would lower the cost of war for the forces laying siege because they could obtain booty without putting their lives in great jeopardy during the pillage of the city as they try to extract the treasures from unwilling people. Instead, these are traded for food and wares at 10 times or more of the price just outside the siege lines, extracting booty without going through the dangerous part of its collection. When the treasures of the city were depleted, resistance to the conqueror would fall off as there would be less to protect and less of a chance for survival. At that point, the conqueror could enter the city without pillage, thus maintaining a lesser future cost of maintaining possession of the city due to there being less of a massacre - which is how intense multigenerational enminities form.

Thus banking allowed war by funding it before it paid off. It lowered the risk to the aggressor, and lowered the costs of winning, and the loss of losing. It also helped the Sultan to retain control of his generals and their lieutenants who were beholden to him for their pay.

As the early commercial revolution that preceeded the pre-steam engine industrial revolution proceeded, the costs and complexities of war were increased. A prince had to compete with industry and commerce for his armies and had to fund their arms, which grew in complexity and upfront cost but allowed greater chances for success by increasing the superiority of arms.

It should be noted that Islam was where the commerce and industry were before the 14th century. Europe was a backwaters. It was contact with the world of Islam during the crusades that transformed Europe.

Gandalf the White< ; - )>>#5566606/08/01; 10:26:14

Don't look now, but SPOT is awaking !!

TannehillDo you smell smoke?#5566706/08/01; 10:31:56

Smells like paper burning to me, do you smell smoke?

someone go check the stock exchange, smells like something burning to me...

cut'n paste

N.Y. Stock Exchange Halts Trading in All Stocks
by Mark Weinraub
Friday, June 08, 2001 11:24 a.m. EDT

The Big Board's glitch had a ripple effect. The Chicago Board Options Exchange halted trading in its individual and index options based on New York Stock Exchange stocks and planned to resume trading in those products with the NYSE at 10:15 a.m. CDT.

The CBOE also stopped trading in its Standard & Poor's 500 and 100 index options, although CBOE options based on NASDAQ-listed stocks were unaffected by the trading stoppage.

Earlier this week, the trading system of Nasdaq, the NYSE's main rival, broke down for about 20 minutes, as the No. 2 U.S. equity was working on increasing the system's capacity.

Nasdaq, which trades more than 1 billion shares a day on average, recently has encountered problems with SelectNet. The system went down for about 15 minutes in March, and a handful of erroneous trades entered into the system in February caused the Nasdaq Composite Index to falsely spike up 14 percent.

A Nasdaq spokesman declined to comment on the NYSE's system outage.

Copyright © 2001 Reuters Limited.

When was the last time gold spiked up 14% due to a computer glitch?

Buy physical put a geologist to work

That's all from Tannehill

Gandalf the WhiteSPIKE is now awake also !#5566806/08/01; 10:40:46

I see $269.9 ----- UP $3.7 on
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeTree In The Forest#5566906/08/01; 10:42:12

Thanks! I held on to that full bag of junk silver. It sure was fun watching it increase in value $7 per each cent rise! I'm now within 7 cents of where I started. I've enjoyed myself both ways! I sure don't want to be left behind. Due in large measure to your and others posts, this bucket is standing pat.
Gandalf the White< ; - )>>#5567006/08/01; 10:45:37

$271.2 + $5 even
SHIFTYSpot#5567106/08/01; 10:55:16

Sic em boy


Gandalf the WhiteJUMP SPOT JUMP !!!#5567206/08/01; 10:58:23

$271.8 + $5.6

Max RabbitzGold Shooting up#5567306/08/01; 10:58:30

Tony Blair and Labor are now in for 5 more years and the British Pound will die. Does this affect the gold manipulation? No more incentive to keep the price down to make sure they can not be criticed for gold sales. Will they now switch sides from the dollar to the Euro? You'd think they would want to have a decent interval before gold explodes but many get greedy. Gold goes up after the London market closes, just like the last time.
SHIFTYSpot#5567406/08/01; 10:59:42

Good thing he's paper trained.
He knows what to do.


Gandalf the WhiteJUMP SPOT JUMP !!!#5567506/08/01; 11:01:46

$271.8 + $5.6

uponroofFund Buying, Short Covering#5567606/08/01; 11:04:09

"GOLD RALLIES $6.00 - Good NY Fund buying seen. Some short covering, XAU Index up 4% and stops triggered above $270. spurs the market. 08 Jun 23:15

Why after 12 noon on Friday?..........hummmmmmm

USAGOLDStealth Attack on Gold#5567706/08/01; 11:20:17

The word we're getting is that a fund (funds) hit bullion desks with physical gold orders that are now being covered on the floor. A stealth attack in a quiet, thin volume market. This looks like an extension of the previous rally -- a very good sign.
uponroofWhat's Happening#5567806/08/01; 11:24:34

Institutional equities buying chart:
Check out where the heavy traffic is (with thanks to Cam7)

btw-Don_L just mentioned that today was also a COMEX options expiration day.

Looks like the bulls will have the physc advantage over the weekend for a change.

Have a good weekend all.

Sierra MadreAbout the WGC....#5567906/08/01; 11:47:47

A person who has written articles for G-E informed me via e-mail, that the WGC is controlled by Rockefeller and Rothschild interests.

No way of corroborating this statement, but it sounds like probably true, to me.

The miners who contribute are just plain suckers, in my view.

So, it would seem to be pointless to worry about what WGC is doing or not doing. They have their agenda, and that's that.

And gold is going to do what it is going to do.

"There is a time for every thing under the sun".


CoBra(too)@ Sierra Madre#556806/8/01; 11:58:02

Amen - I concur totally with your view - cb2
auspecSierra & cb2#556816/8/01; 12:03:28

I'm in your "corner" {Amen also} regarding the R & R boyz. They are up to no good as usual. Let's mess in their caviar, eh?
Gandalf the WhiteTake a Rest here SPOT, and get ready for the JUMP at the end !#556826/8/01; 12:16:35

$272.5 + $6.3

Gandalf the WhiteOK -- Enough Rest ---- GO SPOT GO !!!#556836/8/01; 12:21:38

$273.9 + $7.7

MoutainGoldGold Breaks Out of Bull Flag!!!!#556846/8/01; 12:36:49

A little short covering and......Gold bulls have a happy Friday.....last I saw August Gold 274+

This may be the start of the Great Gold Bull Market 2001 - 2006!!! Gold stocks doing well.

Time Works says MAJOR LOW IS IN!!!


SHIFTYAAAAhhhhhhh#556856/8/01; 12:39:58

Was it good for you too?

Gandalf the WhiteGood Job, SPOT !!!#556866/8/01; 12:40:52

Spot and Spike were really JUMPING and taking bites out of Goldie Sacks at the end when the PAPER was flying ! Thebulliondesk has it ending at $373.5 + $7.3 while the Kitco chart has it at CLOSE = $376.3 !!!!
That should be a good start for next week. Have a great weekend all -- see you late Sunday night.

auspecHoly BrickBat!#556876/8/01; 12:42:15

Gold Up $35.50!!!!

Coming to a market near you soon!
uponroofFund Buying, Short Covering#556886/8/01; 12:50:53

Things Have Changed

Do not dismiss the 'warning rumour' of Chapman. Chances are, unless you believe the U.S. is actually in favor of a strong dollar, that it was given. The fact that it was exposed doomed it's timely fulfillment.....but not eventual fulfillment (yet to be seen). A Fund buying gold at the close of option expiration Friday is not a meaningless occurrance.

A friend's comments:

"...I can't wait to see the COTR report. At first, when I saw the spike today , I thought it had been leaked and it was showing commercials had covered big time. But that is yet to be seen...."

btw-GO SIXERS! Hi snowgirl! MoutainGold..still think the Lakers look like Naz 5000?


Gandalf the WhiteSorry Kitco Chart !#556896/8/01; 12:59:05

That was CLOSE = $273.3 and not as I stated !

HoratioBlair & McVeigh#556906/8/01; 13:12:29

The last time Labor won such "victory"was 1929.
The last time Brits had such a low turnout was ...1929
Why the rush to kill McVeigh without all the facts?
Yes he's guilty no doubt ,but.....who was the accomplace?
could it have been a CIA or FBI mole that the Gumment wants to forget about!Remember at that time the Gumment was paranoid about those "Militia"groups sprouting up like mushrooms.I suspect they infiltrated Mc Veighs cell and was involved in the plot to blow up some Gumment building and when the time came the Gumment thought if they "lose" a few people but could turn public opinion against a growing threat it would be worth the sacrifice.Anyway they had the goods on McVeigh and he would always be the culpert no matter what went down.Yes public opinion turned on Mc Veigh enough so to dismantle the any public support "Militia"groups had.Now Gumment wants to silence him as soon as possible at least before he realizes he was duped and discloses who his accomplice was.In his stupid sence of loyalty he is protecting a probable FBI agent that assisted in the plot to blow up the Murrah building .What the Gumment didn't count on was the size of the death and destruction.
Now they are paranoid the public will find out what part they really played in it.They could have stopped it but decided to let it happin so they could destroy any public support the "Militas" had .The death of children would surely turn public against "militias" and stop thier threat to the Gumment.They always knew McVeigh could be exposed ,but thier problem was how to keep thier cover until he is desposed of.IMHO I think the truth will still come out even after his death.Confidence in Government will be shaken to the core if the truth be known.
Just a supposition on my part, no facts,IMHO.

Gandalf the WhiteCOMEX (GC01Q) --AUG PAPER settled at ====>#556916/8/01; 13:13:06

$274.5 + $7.2 --- after a high of $275.5 near the end, BEFORE the heavy PAPER.
Thanks MK for all the bandwidth !!

Old YellerCOTs#556926/8/01; 13:39:58

Still skewed to the long side for speculators.

Thanks to goldstocktrader at Kitco.

JMBMOUTAIN GOLD#556936/8/01; 13:53:11

Re "time says MAJOR LOW IS IN."

rc@Horatio - McVeigh#556946/8/01; 14:06:02

To execute McVeigh is murder. Plain and simple. That the kid is involved, no doubt about that. But he is not the culprit.
Somebody else is behind the whole affair.

Why he takes everything on his shoulders is beyond my comprehension. Maybe he is crazy, or he tries to protect somebody or he is a plain dumb inflated ego. I don't know. But they have better to think twice before they kill him. The kid may go down in history as the martyr to a cause.

Rockgrabber(No Subject)#556956/8/01; 14:07:02

AAAHHH I just thought of why gold went up today. They (COMEX paper makers) must have went long lumber last week, knowing they had to hedge themselfes, as they will need an almost unlimited supply of paper. Paper has become a bit more costly. So they had to raise their paper price a bit. Nothing serious though, plenty of paper should show up next week. Or soon after. But plenty of gold will flow as well.

I want gold to go off as well as you all. However, I believe trail guide scenario to a tee, not eye to eye on silver however. Even if it somehow went to 600 on paper that is nothing, unless you hold leverage, and that they are in the process of killing. I am going to get puts this coming week again on this spike, as I dont buy it a bit. Good luck Mr Gold.

ChristianTo Horatio#556966/8/01; 14:08:56

Mc Veigh used the internet at libraries into a website run by Chase. President Rockefeller better known as Clinton was in the dumps as far his approval rating so they found this nut from the Aryan nation or whatever it was and helped him (financed + instructions) to blow up this building. One of Mc Veigh favorite words were "Mark of the Beast" which is also what the Chase site spits out. Right after the blast Clinton's approval ratings went up because of how he handled the tragety. It was all a set up to divert news coverage from Clintons sex related problems to the bombing. It is all about public opinion. Mc Veigh is a nut and as a nut he got used. He did it with Chase's financing and information help. Money can hire someone to do the work for you- should be the real lesson.
BeowulfGandalf the White#556976/8/01; 14:09:02

Gandalf, I've been following the making of "The Lord of the Rings" for the last three years from the time rumors of it being in the works started and can't wait till it opens. Do you think they'll be selling "One Rings" at a store near me with the cool elven script on the outside?

Check out the new trailer for the movie, they show the ring and the writing, it's really awesome.


Hmm...maybe the movie will boost sales of gold rings in the market.

Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLDHard assets... easy access!#556986/8/01; 14:13:56

"Treasure chests throughout history
have been filled with gold, and not by idle choice."

-- R. Strauss

BeowulfRussias not selling gold, they're buying it#5569906/08/01; 14:15:26


Russia's gold and currency reserves constituted USD 33.6 billion as of June 1, 2001, against USD 33.0
billion as of May 25, 2001, an increase of 600 million over the week, the Bank of Russia's foreign and
public relations department informed RIA Novosti Thursday.

**I guess that Putin ralley crushing sales quote was a good time to buy?


BeowulfTo USAGOLD#5570006/08/01; 14:24:36

I have a question for you MK. Do you sell those cute little treasure chests like the one shown on your products page? With the low price of Gold for the last three years I've accumulated so much my shoe box is overflowing and I want to put my coins in a place of honor, a live treasure chest.

Question for anyone to answer:

Does anyone know if silver ribbon is available for inlay work. I want to build some furniture and inlay it with silver but can't find any ribbon. The only other solution I can think of is smashing my silver eagles and silver rounds through a metal roller, which I don't have. I guess a hammer would work but the thickness would be hard to control.

P.S. during a confiscation inlay work can also be done in gold. Hint, hint, wink, wink.


BeowulfHeres some nuclear plant news for you Black Blade#5570106/08/01; 14:31:01


Canadian scientists participating in the international symposium ITER Days in Moscow, which opened in the Russian capital on Thursday, have officially suggested building the first-ever thermonuclear experimental reactor /the ITER/ for electricity plants in Canada. The ITER was developed by specialists from Russia, Japan, the United States, Canada and the European Union (the Euroatom organisation).
The Canadian proposition received approval at the scientific forum. "It's fine that 25 years of technological work on a project for the manufacture of a nuclear reactor for power plants on a basically new footing is getting on its feet and grounded", said ITER council chairman Academician Yevgeni Velikhov at the symposium.
He recalled that the idea of such a reactor was born in 1951 and Russia was the first to propose declassifying work on this project. "We managed to combine the scientific efforts of several countries", he noted. He said that Russia has annually been making its financial share in the project and was its binding force. The project will cost 30 billion dollars but the cost of later, multiplied reactors will not exceed 10 billion dollars each, stressed Yevgeni Velikhov.
"If radioactive uranium-plutonium combinations are used as fuel elements in today's power reactors, the new reactor will work on deuterium. Reserves of it are innumerably large and it is free from accidents like in Chernobyl", said Velikhov. The principle of ITER work for electricity generation is based on the idea of using thermonuclear energy accumulated by plasma-magnet traps, reported the scientist. Heat liberation from nuclear elements will sizeably increase and, hence, the efficiency of the reactor.
"Actually, with the ITER project nuclear power engineering makes a quality leap", stressed Academician Velikhov.

Christian?#5570206/08/01; 14:39:28

Central Banks trade gold for $'s at a much higher price then the markets. This is a premium that is payed for the right to be in gold used for credit creation rather then gold itself and is kept off the books. The fact that we can settle our large trade imbalances every year with gold is what makes the dollar's value strong. -- The gold liabilities of our banks are growing and will soon hold all of the $'s of the international system. When the transfer of gold from UK to US is complete- all gold obligations will be terminated and settled in $'s only. (Robert Rubin)
NetkingAuspec / JMB#5570306/08/01; 14:51:12

Auspec(55650) Re: "Wonder if "Gold" is a trigger word for these communication voyeurs? It's getting late folks, do you know where your soul is?" >> Yes I'm sure it is/will be, & yes my name is written in Heaven, that's where my treasure really is. I could lose the Au/Ag tomorrow & I'd still be free PTL.

JMB(55663)Re:that "other place" thinking "GOLDENROD @webtv is Greenspan" >> he he[grin],the next thing they'll think there is that "G Khan" is Hillary C. under cover[remember she's into the commodity mkt], the good Dr better not withdraw HER posting privileges or else! . . .

R PowellTwo fer day#5570406/08/01; 15:02:49

We probably all already know but I'll report anyway for late arrivals. POG ended up $7.20 (Aug contract) and silver ended up 3.5 cents (July contract). The lease rates which are set earlier in the day, were down. XAU was also up, good move up! So we have two out of three.
Both Friday rallies (spikes?), today's and the last rally which also started on a Friday, started just after noontime. Noontime-New York time- is when the London market closes for the day. Didn't we read that Goldman Sacks moved their metals' trading operation to London a short while back?? Sunday night is going to be fun again!
Although we know there's no correlation, it's still worth noting that lumber was higher today (with gold?) and soybeans were up on the day (with silver?).
Does anyone know the time of day the lease rates are set? I believe it's done in London but I'm not sure. I'll bet they were set for today before noontime (N.Y. time).
Note also that today was expiration day for July gold and silver options. I wonder what Don_L's cube forecast was ?? As far as I can understand, I think he determines what POG number would pay the least amount of fiat after considering all the calls and puts in play. I believe that's what his cube system does but I haven't seen him posting lately. Have not yet read today's messages so I'll say no more except Yippie!! Way to go Spot!! He dodged that bullion truck with room to spare.

Randy (@ The Tower)Thanks to the ten people who kindly offered their time and thought to describe "sound money"#5570506/08/01; 15:03:09

I have compiled the various answers to this question ("What is Sound Money?") and am weaving them together with my comments. The results thus far look very promising to stimulate additional thought and discussion.

If anyone else would like to offer their 2¢ on the matter, please feel free to do so.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What exactly is meant when people refer to "sound money"? In other words, how would we know it if we had it...what are its telltale characteristics or system of operation (i.e., how does it function)?


auspecChristian#5570606/08/01; 15:21:23

Per your post: "When the transfer of gold from UK to US is complete- all gold obligations will be terminated and settled in $'s only. (Robert Rubin)" END

Are you speaking of the BoE gold leaving by auction? That would mean this gold crosses the Atlantic as many have suggested. How is this attributed to Rubin?

R PowellGreenspan lurking?#5570706/08/01; 15:30:14

MoutainGold, "GE Forum claims Greenspan is a lurker... does he read here!"
He not only lurks at GE but he occasionally posts there under the name genebaby.
Does he read here? Yeeeup, every day.

Tree in the ForestHill Billy Mitchell#5570806/08/01; 15:42:07

I believe that I have located the article that you were referring to re: pre-1933 coins. However, I cannot post it in deference to our host. The author is a dealer!
JMBR POWELL#5570906/08/01; 15:51:57

GENEBABY, GOLDENROD@webtv, and GREENSPAN...all the same guy? Yep, I can confirm that from a fairly reliable source. I also heard that GOLDBUGGERER over a kitco is GREENSPAN.
CoBra(too)- Hello Rich - Gold does not acquire "Greenspan" ... Gruenspan (verdigris)#5571006/08/01; 16:09:44

though Silver may get some patina over the years - makes it more gentile.

Just wondering if Greenspan acquires gold? For his closet? Maybe, in lieu of moth balls and what galls me is the waste of Gold Eagles, thrown in vain at a "mam-moth" paper mo(-nster)th to sustain her reign. And as history shows, moth's gain at any pool and particularily at any fool's gold pool of the olden London School.

Get a life AG (aka Verdigris) and spend your golden years (without lying through your teeth - TM.Vergilius)
and let us, who read between your lines, know that all is show to just impress on us the power of your printing press.
So now we know, you're probably A. G(utenberg, II) and wann'a show the real productivity gains of the new printing machine.

Well, as I've got to go I'll leave you at the lever of printing green verdigris paper forever - ... Sysiphus - see u ... cb2

ChristianAuspec#5571106/08/01; 16:13:43

Message 55702 are the words of Robert Rubin in a meeting where he used to work. (Right to be in gold used for credit creation rather then gold itsef= Credit creation gold consists of a bundle of commodities (Metals, Grains, Housing, Oil, Natural Gas). Our large trade imbalances are being settled by gold. All of this gold comming from England's gold auction, Switzerland, Kuwait and a whole slug of other countries is what settles our trade deficits and holds the $'s value. We settle our trade deficit with BIS with gold worth $540 an ounce. Actually all gold is moving to BIS and it is the reason Greenspan and partner took up the board of directors position at BIS. The gold liabilities of our banks are growing and will soon hold all $'s of the international system also = somehow they are trying to make the $'s overseas good by backing with credit creation gold which consists of a bundle of commodities. With the transfer of gold from UK to US which ends up at BIS is complete- all gold obligations will be terminated and settled with $'s only= to be a one time deal where the FED will simply print into existence $'s to pay off the gold short position of it's member banks. The big picture is- commodity gold is being replaced with credit creation gold of which commodity gold is represented in the metals group of credit creation gold. This is really a good plan, I just wish I knew about it before. No wonder Greenspan said central banks will sell down gold should the price rise. This plan has been in excistence for some time and the whole thing is really Rubin's plan. Why are we always the last to know- and when we finally catch on the plan is changed.
Christian(No Subject)#5571206/08/01; 16:34:10

I can not believe how stupid I am- I should have figured it out long time ago that commodity gold was being shorted and replaced by credit creation gold which is really a bundle of commodities. Now that the FED has control over the GSE's, housing is a component of credit creation gold. Rubin said when he became Treasurer that "sound money system should provide for a commodity dollar, or at least for a common denominator of a group of commodities as backing for the currency. By law all stock investments belong to the FED and now housing is included. There is even going to be a way to short housing just like shorting a stock. I as for one would like to know just exactly what is in that bundle of commodities and in what proportion and how it is figured. Just what is the value of credit creation gold? Why even call it that when gold makes only a small portion of the metals group? Housing is a commodity? It's a building to me. We on this gold forum are LOST, Confused...
NetkingChinese Premier Meets Mexican President Fox#5571306/08/01; 17:11:07

". . .Zhu said the two countries have good cooperative relations, and China attaches great importance to the development of Sino-Mexican friendly relations. China is willing to work with Mexico by taking practical measures to expand and strengthen bilateral cooperation in an effort to benefit the two peoples, added Zhu.

Zhu said there are vast potentials for bilateral cooperation, which will be further exploited by Fox's visit, and bilateral cooperative prospects are broad. President Fox said his current visit to China is of great importance for the two countries to build a beautiful future in the new century. . ."
I wonder if these smart cookies are securing their silver supplies for the next decade, ie what does The PRC need much of and who is the biggest producer of it? - Netking

CoBra(too) ... As an Afterthought ...#5571406/08/01; 17:15:39

- not used - only to promote - some real gold - sold by CPM tm*

... and Gold does not (even) require Greenspan to promote the wealth of old ... gold - cb2

tm* - never found a price more fair for physical and this is where I place my orders, whenever I can.
... at usagold ... thanks MK ... and this is not a paid AD - just a client, who feels secure within your moat and the fair ladies Marie and Gillian, and not to forget George (who even understands my lingo) and Randy, the Ostrich (probably a synonym of Richard Strauss - the elder or younger?)heralding any change on the monetary range.

PS: As my PS'es get longer than my messages ... a sure sign of the decline of my brain's waterline ... gulp - single malt ...

Cavan ManChristian 55711#5571506/08/01; 17:20:53

We've heard some of this post inparticular in another presentation. Gold going to the BIS and then, and then...contract settled in dollars or, in Euro...and then, and then......
Cavan ManCB2#5571606/08/01; 17:23:30

I'd add, if I may and I'd like to say: "Join us Mr. Greenspan. Free the price of gold. It will benefit the republic; "one Nation, under God" and U2..Pro "Bono"..CM"
Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeBeowulf @ inlay#5571706/08/01; 17:57:37

Have not heard of silver inlay. If this is to be inlaid in wood, when it tarnishes it will require extra care in polishing. Can you get by with gold leaf instead?
ChristianContinuation of message 55711 and the one befor that by Christian#5571806/08/01; 18:32:45

There is two requirements of a modern internatioanl gold standard-1-ending monetization of government debt+2-ending monetization of reserve curencies. By increasing the net reserves of the whole world based on a credit creation gold that consists of a basket of commodities (metals, grains, oil, natural gas, housing) and sharply lowering interest rates (which Greenspan is doing) and stimulate infestments in physical assets to increase employment (today's wall street computer glitch was not a glitch -it was to reprogram manipulated computer trades) and facilitate the repayment of excisting debt- without engendering significant inflation or deflation. Inflation and deflation chances are reduced with commodity gold replaced with credit creation gold consisting of a bundle of commodities. No one will be able to manipulate the credit creation gold like commodity gold because commodity gold has been made only a small part of a much bigger pie of credit creation gold. The international monetary system will be based on credit creation gold made up of a basket of commodities. We will still have different currencies by name only. All currencies will derive their value of the credit creation basket of commodities. But in order for a country to have its own currency the currency has to be convertible to credit creation gold. New World Order is based on this credit creation basket of commodities. This will free gold from its chains and also frees it from the use of monetary backing. -- I feel that I am on the right track- can't believe a dummy like me can actually figure this out. Now I know why everything is done to silence me. There is no room for exposure. What I can make public here can never be printed in our money oriented publications until after the fact.
Tree in the Forest(No Subject)#5571906/08/01; 19:08:01

I realize that everyone is hoping for gold to go up and MoutainGold has predicted this. Unfortunately I do not agree that it is time yet for gold to rise. I realize that in disagreeing with MG, I am setting myself against one of the heavy hitters on the gold boards. But I have to be true to my own feelings, whether I am right or wrong. The blip today was the typical "pump and dump" maneuver trying to shake out weak hands and shorts. We had one a week or two ago and now they are doing it again. The dump comes next week. I still see a big down move to flush the longs before gold is ready. Time will tell. But think of this as an opportunity to learn great patience. <grin> You need it in the gold business!
Black BladeRE: Tree in the Forest (06/08/01; 08:55:23MT - msg#: 55657)#5572006/08/01; 19:15:37

The ABX Nedge Fund lost -$1.93/share last quarter. To make a bad situation worse, they apparently are desperate for cash as they sold forward an additional 25% to 35% of several years production at $270.00/oz. I don't see Munky and Oliphant chattering and trumpeting this news. They are suddenly very quiet. Just another "Bungle in the Jungle." They are at great risk in a rising POG environment. It will likely get ugly soon enough. The ABX shareholder has not had any real good return on equity although the ABX management have given themselves fat bonus checks. I would dump this dog before it bites! The odds are better in Las Vegas.
Black Blade"Bungle In The Jungle" - Munky and Oliphant Hedges#5572106/08/01; 19:32:01

Remember when the WA announcement was made public and gold began to soar? The next day PDG released a statement that they were closing out forward sold positions and would not engage in any future forward sales. The POG rose further. Gold was off to the races. The very next day, ABX was "Johnny on the spot" with an announcement that they would continue to sell forward, and in fact were likely to increase their forward sales. The timing was curious to say the least, especially when it was not a requirement for them to reiterate their already previously known position on hedging. Yet they were very quick on the trigger to make that statement. Why? Maybe because they had to stop the POG rally at all costs! Think about it. The POG retraced after the ABX announcement. Now if ABX were to benefit from a rising POG, they would have remained quiet, but they were adamant about increasing forward sales. I contend that it was done out of absolute fear! Note that after gold retraced, that ABX bought several million dollars worth of put options. Think about that one! Fearless Barrick? Yeah - right, Hmmm...

- Black Blade

Mr GreshamHome#5572306/08/01; 20:06:47

What a nice little spike to come home to! Thanks all for keeping the castle warm while I'm out questing. Relishing all the great reading from you I have ahead of me tomorrow.

They really are keeping the lid on this -- I've always thought that AU was one of their cheaper manipulations, but maybe the price of it has gone up lately? I wonder if it's costing them some ability to keep some of the other things in check now? Anyway, it's a war, and we're all participants -- we've had our early wounds, recovered hopefully, and we'll be the battle-tried veterans when the boatloads of other workers/consumers/savers/investors hit the beaches and start taking serious fire. I'm just afraid it will all be over so quickly...

Warren(No Subject)#5572406/08/01; 20:14:59

USAGOLDCobra. .. . .#5572506/08/01; 20:22:29

Pleasant greetings, my friend.

I heard from a very good source (and friend) that Alan Greenspan's family lost everything it had in the Nightmare German Inflation and that unfortunate circumstance is what really made him a gold advocate in his early years. I just got the most recent tapes from Elizabeth Currier from the April Committee for Monetary Research and Education conference and would highly recommend the same. They go everywhere I go until I get through them -- a happy companion in my daily travels. In that James Grant, a gold advocate himself, makes an interesting foray into Greenspan the Man versus Greenspan the Fed chairman -- a distinction you and I have discussed in the past. I believe he does see himself the Fountainhead and the Randian hero -- a gold standard onto himself. The question is "Should we see him as Braveheart, or the victim of his own hubris?" It seem from your most recent post that you have come to a position in that regard.

These and other mysteries are tackled by the Committee and its friends who include such people as James Grant, Anne Williamson (the provocative thinker), Martin Mayer (who just published an excellent book on central banking, "The Fed"), Walker Todd (Do you the meaning of the word "Corporatism") and Joseph Salerno from the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

I know you'll like it, my friend. It would appear that the consensus is moving in your direction.

This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

working-kirkI'm depressed! I just calucated my weekly salary in silver/gold#5572606/08/01; 20:35:35

Boy am I depressed. Got my weekly paycheck and turned it into circulated silver. It occurred to me that the face value versus the total of my paycheck would be a good way to
tell the true value of inflation. So my weekly salary would have been about a $100.00 in 1964 silver or looking at the face value of gold about $75.00. That mean there has been
a 600% increase in inflation.

Anyone else ever felt the same way after seeing how little gold or silver their paycheck buys?

Tree in the ForestBlack Blade#5572706/08/01; 20:38:22

Thanks for the info on ABX. Daddy Bush is on the board I believe along with Brian Mulrooney, Munk and Oliphant. What a motley crew. Or are they birds of a feather? Either way, even Anglogold has them beat. At least Anglo has a positive PE.
Tree in the ForestHBM#5572806/08/01; 20:49:53

I sent the link to the article to Randy to forward to you. I don't think MK would mind the article; he's probably read it! He would probably even agree with a lot of it (though not all). The issue was the fact that the article was written by one of his competitors and on his website so it would not be right for me to post that link here. It argues very forcefully for bullion coins instead of pre-1933. Check it out and see if MK is amenable to posting it.
working-kirktreasure chest#5572906/08/01; 20:59:24

Stop by a cigar store and ask for some empty wooden cigar boxes. Then paint the cigar box like a treasure chest..

cheap (free) solution to have little treasure chests

> Beowulf (06/08/01; 14:24:36MT - msg#: 55700)

> I have a question for you MK. Do you sell those cute
> little treasure chests like the one shown on your products > page? With the low price of Gold for the last three
> years I've accumulated so much my shoe box is overflowing > and I want to put my coins in a place of honor, a live > treasure chest.

working-kirkSilver and gold inlay#5573006/08/01; 21:14:53

I don't know about silver ribbon but if you are a musician and want either silver or gold inlay, on of the best places to go is called Anderson Plating in ELkhart, In.
Is is possible they might have silver ribbons.

To get an idea how what can be done with inlays check out the following web sites. and look at the pictures

If you leave an email an the above site, Nick can get you in touch with Rich Ita who also does a lot of horn work

> Question for anyone to answer:

> Does anyone know if silver ribbon is available for inlay
> work. I want to build some furniture and inlay it with > silver but can't find any ribbon. The only other solution
> I can think of is smashing my silver eagles and silver
> rounds through a metal roller, which I don't have. I guess > a hammer would work but the thickness would be hard
> to control.

> P.S. during a confiscation inlay work can also be done in > gold. Hint, hint, wink, wink.

Tree in the ForestIronHead#5573106/08/01; 21:19:42

I think we will see the type of SM drop you are looking for way before December; how about by the end of this month? It might be part of the gold trigger.
BTW did you know that Reg "Bulldog" Howe rides? Truth! Well, we knew he was smart! :-)

Black BladeRE: Tree in the Forest (06/08/01; 20:38:22MT - msg#: 55727)#5573206/08/01; 21:28:21

I understand that both Daddy Bush and former Canadian PM Mulrooney serve on the ABX board. I am not sure, but I recall that they were serving in an "advisory role." Personally I prefer unhedged miners as HGMCY that are profitable whereas ABX is in negative territory, pay a reasonable dividend, etc (although I strongly advocate physical as well). I am still a bit miffed that HGMCY was forced into seemingly unnecessary "put options" as a condition of their recent financing package (I also miss-spoke earlier as ABX had "call options" to protect against a rising POG). Regardless, ABX is scared enough to seek the ability to settle in cash (provided their counterparties will accept cash) if the POG rises and triggers margin calls as per Ashanti, and Cambior. I just find it strange that ABX would come out the very next trading day to counter the PDG position on hedging as gold was making a sustained run up in US dollar value. Certainly something to consider. As far as shareholder value, I have rolled on HGMCY shares 3 times since 1996 and took healthy profits, whereas with ABX that would not have been an option with its dismal performance. The most reasonable stock valuations for gold mining shares are for HGMCY, GOLD, MDG, etc. - all forsake forward sales.

Of course with physical gold at the current cheap price, one would do well to consider the real deal. Anyhow, I must step out to have dinner and a couple of cold ones with some friends formerly with the gold mining business (including one who until recently worked for ABX). Cheers!

- Black Blade

Warren(No Subject)#5573306/08/01; 22:16:07

The short and long of it all.

If you jump off a building where will you land?

If you plant a seed what will happen?

If you don't use it what happens?

If you pray what happens?

If you use the sword what will happen?

If you want to be the wealthest person what do you own?

What other metal means real wealth?

What do most people desire?

Solomon WeaverI love Ted Butler....but on this little point I ask him to reconsider...#557346/8/01; 23:47:54

"How do you get supplies from inventories in a free market? Only with higher prices. Period. It's impossible to take inventory away from long-term holders with lower and not higher prices." Ted Butler

There is a phenomenon called capitulation selling to "cut your losses".....

Also, a seller seeking to boost "liquidity" will sell the worst performing asset.

Poor old Solomon

Black BladeNatural Gas Prices To Increase in July ( June 08, 2001 ) #557356/9/01; 00:03:54

The Energy Regulatory Office (ERU) has decided to increase natural gas prices by an average of 7.5% from 1 July, with prices rising 6.4% and 5.6% for large and mid-size enterprises, respectively, and 2.3% for small consumers. Prices for households are expected to jump 11.7%. ERU says the price hikes come as a result of higher oil prices and the stronger crown. (LN 13)

Black Blade: NG prices have been in a tight lowered trading range due to moderate weather over much of the US. Energy use is likely to increase going into air conditioner season. So these estimates are really no surprise except to the typical Wall Street "analyst." There are a lot of issues surrounding NG that are just beginning to come to light and prices are destined to rise putting additional pressure on utility prices. There is still a move in the US Senate to push a bill that would cap NG and electricity prices in California to the cost of production (God forbid that US corporations make a profit, that would be capitalism). Sen. Diane FineSwine is pushing her own bill now that the Dems have "control" of the Senate. The problem with these bills that are intended to benefit the state of California is that they must be enforced in other states to be of any real benefit. These bills are really nothing more than the usual "feel good" legislation to score points with a gullible Californian populace. If power providers are pushed and threatened to sell energy at cost in California, they will likely sell for a profit elsewhere. This will only serve to exact a toll on the state's already fragile economy.

Black BladeDomestic Oil and Gas Rig Count Down #557366/9/01; 00:20:02


HOUSTON-- The number of rigs actively exploring for oil and natural gas in the United States this week was down by six to 1,264. Of the rigs running nationwide, 1,051 were exploring for gas, 212 were looking for oil and one was listed as miscellaneous, Houston-based Baker Hughes Inc. reported Friday. A year ago, the rig count was at 840. Baker Hughes has kept track of the count since 1944. The tally peaked at 4,530 on Dec. 28, 1981, during the height of the oil boom, but set several record lows in 1999, bottoming out at 488 on April 23, 1999.

Black Blade: This is another serious petroleum problem, especially for NG. As I said last week, we are topped out on drill rigs. There simply are none left. Some companies are scrounging the junk yards for rigs and parts, yet none are to be found. None anywhere. This is another point I intended to make on NG this weekend. I have been looking over two drill rigs this week. One is put together from parts sitting unused for over a decade. Today, the rig broke down. This is very common as there are very few new drill rigs and many older rigs are just plain worn out or patched together. We can expect drill rig counts for NG to begin declining except for a few that are converted from mining and mineral exploration companies, and even then they are not the optimum equipment. The major problem here is that most rig manufacturers have gone out of business during the petroleum bust of the 1980's. Add to this the fact that there a very few experienced rig crews and few willing to take on this physically demanding and dangerous work. Result, less NG supply coming to market and prices are destined to rise substantially. This is especially true where virtually all new power plants are NG-fired. Check Mate!

Black BladeMore U.S. gas off limits than previously estimated#557376/9/01; 00:41:38


More of the recoverable natural gas in the Rocky Mountain region is off limits to drilling than previously thought, according to a new U.S. Energy Department study released yesterday. A tract-by-tract review found that nearly 68 per cent of the recoverable natural gas supplies in the Greater Green River Basin in southern Wyoming and northwestern Colorado - as much as 79 trillion cubic feet of gas - is either closed to drilling or under significant access restrictions, the Energy Department said. The department's conclusions are much higher than a similar 1999 council study, which said 40 per cent of the region's natural gas was off limits to drilling. Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham said the study supports the Bush administration's new national energy policy that calls for a review of public lands and lease stipulations that may impede federal oil and natural gas exploration. He said U.S. demand for natural gas will grow by 50 per cent over the next two decades as fuel for the nation's homes and business and for new power plants. "We must take every step to meet future demands for energy in an environmentally responsible fashion," Abraham said.

Black Blade: Third point on NG is that of drill target acquisition and environmental restrictions. Not to mention Bubba Clinton's last minute executive orders designed to restrict domestic US hydrocarbon production. Add to this restrictions set by various US Federal and State government agencies. There are also issues dealing with subterranean water withdrawal and displacement. Restrictions and delays of permitting for drilling that adds to the costs of petroleum that is passed along to the consumer. Even if we had the drill rigs available, the government by it's own inaction and bureaucratic incompetence will ultimately restrict hydrocarbon production, whether or not intentional, the end result is less supply to power generation and therefore higher prices. Be sure to thank your local and national politicians and environmentalist extremist organizations for you're higher energy costs. The end result really is the devastating impact on the economy. Manufacturing capacity will be impacted, layoffs will continue to increase, and inflationary pressures will increase (albeit the Core-Rate at first). It will get very ugly as the major political parties will play this crisis and expand it for political mileage at the expense of the serfs.

Black BladeNatural Gas Pipeline Project#557386/9/01; 01:08:03


The 1,030-mile Sonoran pipeline project, to run from New Mexico to California and include intra-state capacity in California, is one of several lines proposed to bring much-needed gas to the Golden State to run a fleet of new power plants. Pending regulatory approval and final contracts with producers seeking to ship gas on the line, the system is slated to start commercial service in the summer of 2003, the companies said in a statement on Thursday. The Sonoran pipeline system, expected to cost about $1.7 billion to build, would carry roughly enough gas to drive around 14 1,000-megawatt gas-fired power plants.

Black Blade: This is a step in the right direction, however, too little - too late. Note that the pipeline should be ready in 2003. This is the fourth point - infrastructure. There is not enough pipeline capacity or storage capacity for the large number of NG-fired power plants that will be coming on line. The current infrastructure is in disrepair. In fact, Questar (STR) is working to convert an old oil pipeline from New Mexico to California into a NG pipeline. It is that desperate my friends. There is also the issue of permitting pipelines and storage facilities. Even new planned LNG facilities are being opposed. Much of the opposition is from environmental extremists who file numerous lawsuits and delay the needed fuels from getting to market. There is also the NIMBY syndrome! The point is - what good is a power plant if there is no fuel stock? A number of executive emergency orders need to be issued or else it will be economic disaster. Actually, it is already too late. Yesterday we saw what could happen if there was a power problem on Wall Street. What if it was a prolonged and complete power outage? The minor dips in the market indices yesterday are nothing. Market participants would not get information or be able to trade shares, and if there was some "important" market news? Well now gold looks better all the time. One has to wonder how much of yesterday's gold price action was related to market concerns due to the software glitch on the "Big Board?" We can only speculate. Gold in hand is definitely the safest wealth preservation vehicle in an uncertain economic environment. Was this a Wake Up Call perhaps?

IronHeadFamous Gold Advocate - Guess Who?#557396/9/01; 01:43:44

Randy - Sound Money; What "he" says below??

For the ole timers this is an obvious one; to the newbies, the answer will tweak your beak.

Who is the world renown author, whom wrote the following?

Clips from his writings.

<An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions.>

<In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.>

<If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.>

<- medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal.>

<Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has always been considered a luxury good.
It is durable, portable, homogeneous, divisible, and, therefore, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange.>

<If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute, and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's division of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange, is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into gold.>

<Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks).>

<Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth.>

<When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade.>

[IronHead overwhelmed by this one - crawling off the ceiling actually] <And so the Federal Reserve was organised in 1913.>
<Credit extended by these banks is in practice (although not legally) [author's prens., not IronHead's] backed by the taxing power of the federal government.>

<the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forstalling any possible bank reserve shortage.>

<With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression.>

<Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset.>

[IronHead's head went through the ceiling on this one!] <The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit.>

<The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets.>

<In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credits would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.>

<This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.>

IronHead here again - So who is this mystery man of golden thought? If you guessed Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Mises, Buckminster Fuller, or Uncle Henry - wrongo!!

Would you believe our anointed Fed Head his-self? Perhaps MK is correct in the assumption that AG 'sees' himself as the great prognosticator of a golden standard to relish for all time henceforth!

From Ayn Rands "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" with above chapter 6 - "Gold and Economic Freedom" written by one A. Greenspan; sound money advocate, yesterday and today?

IronHead (On the ceiling)

colourofmoneyChristian#557406/9/01; 04:24:03

Credit Creation Gold

Now, under the traditional mechanics of a gold standard, when the US runs a large current account deficit, gold has to flow out. Since 1971 this is of course not happening, so dollars are piling up in the rest of the world. With your reasoning of a CCG, you make it sound as if those with a surplus (Switzerland, other CB's) are actually selling gold but at a much higher price ( 540 USD ?)than the free market price. Even if this is so, are you aware of the fact that a 400 bln annual deficit represents 23.500 tonnes of gold at this price ?

This commodity basket is too complicated and simplicity is what a wrecked financial system desperately needs today. Besides how many dollars is the FED going to print to erase the gold liabilities of the member banks once the transactions of the BOE etc are over and done ?

Cavan ManGood Commentary By Peggy Noonan on Blair and Europe etc.#557416/9/01; 07:00:02

I find it alarming that Italy and France are no longer considered "Christian" countries. What do you say HBM?
Cavan ManHere's the right link...#557426/9/01; 07:04:41

BTW, Irish reject Nice.
JMBSOLOMON WEAVER#557436/9/01; 08:11:54

Your #55734 late yesterday is spot on.

Ted has generously shared his knowledge about Silver with us for years so I hope someone will direct his attention to your very succinct truism. It's hard to believe that he doesn't understand "capitulation".
auspecChristian#557446/9/01; 08:15:16

Please provide the appropriate link{s} for the RR commentary, we need to comb carefully through as many of his statements as possible.
Thank you very much!

RockgrabberIron Head#557456/9/01; 09:26:45

Sir, thanks for those Greenspan Remarks. How did you stop from going right through the ceiling? Those words having been said by him, everything that now is to fallow should be of no surprise. People are going to be shocked at this gold thing, when it is to be expected through understanding. Greenspan understands perfectly. Greenspan is motivated deep in revenge or something. He must have been poked alot of fun at when he was growing up or something. Must be his ears. He is going to get everyone back! I am sure he thinks (those ignorant people should have known what I do.) I am not sure where to stand on that one either.

What a beautifull day for gardening and thinking. I love this on a saturday morning. First, I love to read all the posts I have not. Second go garden and think. What a great hobby to enjoy the day and think on learning. Have a good day Sir! I have to admit I love to light up a dddoooobbiie to stir deep thoughts. I am ready for a big learning to understand day.

EconoclastHey Rockgrabber...#557466/9/01; 10:05:17

Pass that thing this way, would ya?
It sure feels like a great day for a hike.
Have a good one.

LeighEconoclast#557476/9/01; 10:46:56

"It sure feels like a great day for a hike." Hint, hint! Calling Trail Guide!! Where are you?
Gandalf the WhiteJapan looks to be in TROUBLE#557486/9/01; 10:48:26

----Saturday, June 9, 2001
"Downgrade sounds Japan slump alert"
Fears of recession in Japan are growing as the country's top economic policy-maker warned Tokyo would downgrade a key assessment next week. The economy "is worsening in line with our forecast from the previous . . . monthly report", said Heizou Takenaka, minister for economic and fiscal policy.

Mr Takenaka said the imminent downgrade would reflect a slowdown in spending by companies on new investments amid a sluggish United States economy and cooling exports. Last month's Cabinet Office economic report warned Japan's comatose economy was "increasingly weakening".

Mr Takenaka said the wording of June's report, due for release on Thursday, would include a "further strong expression" about the state of the world's second-largest economy.

With more short-term damage to the economy expected from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's structural reforms, Mr Takenaka said a revival in the US economy would be a key factor in Japan's ability to recover.

"Optimists say the US will recover in the middle or by the end of this year. But it must come back at least by the start of next year or it's going to be a problem for us," Mr Takenaka said.

However, Finance Minister Masajuro Shiokawa said while the Japanese economy remained in a severe condition, fundamentals were not deteriorating. "Since I took office, the economy has continued to be in a severe situation," he said. "However, I am confident that economic fundamentals are still firm and we see the current severity being short-lived. I believe there will be a trigger for improvement in the future."

Mr Shiokawa denied he had plans to introduce fresh budget measures to boost Japan. "The government will need to consider how to cope with a possible worsening of the economy but . . . we have no concrete economic measures," he said.

Mr Takenaka said he was unsure about attaining the official target of 1.2 per cent growth in the year to March. Gross domestic product data for the period is due to be released on Monday.

"It does not really matter if the 1.2 per cent target is achieved or not as it is only a thing of the past. What is more important is how the economy performs from here," said Tomoko Fujii, economist at Nikko Salomon Smith Barney.

Mr Shiokawa acknowledged that economic conditions would be worse in the second quarter. "We do not think corporate earnings in the January to March quarter were that bad, although there may have been some downgrades. But we are concerned that April to June would be slightly weaker than January to March," he said.
<;-) BUT what if the USA economy does not "recover" by the first of next year !! What if an energy crisis were to SUDDENLY appear to arrive to the "doors" of others than the Grasshoppers? As Black Blade has said: "Interesting times" will be seen AROUND the WORLD ! The YELLOW is still cheap by anyones yardsticks!! GATHER while you may. THAT means you too, SIR Paul the Lurker ! <;-)>>

USAGOLDThursday's Commentary & Review and Some Thoughts on the Wilhelm I Ten Mark Gold Coins#557496/9/01; 10:51:39

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First, they are scarce coins listed at $275 in the latest Krause catalogue (our price is $124).

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These are more collector items than they are gold. We recommend that you pick up a tidy portion of the hoard and put them away for the long term. This would be an especially attractive offer for those putting this type of thing away for the kids and grandkids. We will be trying over the coming months and years to find more items like this. We have been pleasantly surprised at the amount of interest in this sort of item and those who involve themselves in putting away a portion of these offerings will end upwith a nice collection of scarce coins assembled over the years. We enjoy putting these offerings together and we hope you enjoy participating. Some of our clients have already put together very respectable and satisfying collections already. We are collecting history. . . interesting history at very affordable prices.

We invite you to go to the link "Wilhelm I" at the top of the page to learn more about this opportunity.


Thursday's Commentary:

6/7/01 ( . . .Gold
drifted laterally this morning with little in the
way of fresh news to take it one direction or
the other. The Asian markets reported light
physical buying and some strength on the
basis of a stronger Australian dollar. Lease
rates are also tightly range bound at the
moment adding to the lack of direction in
bullion prices. Standard Bank of London
registered the opinion this morning that the
yellow metal could break out of this range to
the upside with $272 being the target figure.

In other financial news, the British pound was
sent reeling this morning on the likelihood that
Tony Blair would retain Number Ten
Downing. Some reports have suggested that
Mr. Blair would consider his victory today a
signal that Britain should move ahead on
deciding the euro question. Signs that the
United States might be slipping into a
recession continue to emerge but none more
convincing to date than the unemployment
report this morning showing the highest
unemployment since 1992. The stock market
is beginning to show signs that the recession
might be for real as well. As the summer
moves along, and energy/inflation concerns
mount, we could have some severe weakness
in the over-valued stock markets. We suspect
investor interest in gold will continue to grow
as the problems of stagflation reminiscent of
the 1970s/1980s become evident in the

I am often asked what it will take for a gold
breakout to occur and how high would it go if
it ever did break out. Here's an interesting
scenario based on what happened in the

The London Gold Pool (comprised principally
of the United States and Great Britain), after a
long and monumental effort to suppress the
price of gold, broke down in 1971.
Unilaterally the U.S. government set gold and
the dollar free to find their true market value
essentially because the United States could no
longer suffer the significant drain on its
reserves required to keep the price of gold at
$35. The U.S. gold reserve had sunk to 8000
tonnes from 18000 tonnes just after World
War II with nearly all the gold ending up in the
Treasuries of the continental European
countries. In other words, there was not
enough physical metal available to keep the
$35 price in place. (I believe that even now the
key to another gold breakout is whether or not
even physical metal can be drained from the
mining companies and central banks to keep
the price under $300. )Anyone who reads
these reports regularly also knows that I
believe that those suppressing the price of gold
have pretty much played out their hand, and
we are approaching a repeat of the 1971
drama, i.e. de facto dollar devaluation, a
cut-off of physical metal, an ascending gold
price in dollars.

It was interesting to me that in the recent
Dines Letter, the old master (James Dines)
caught something that all the rest of us missed.
For the first time in a long time, most if not all
major currencies were depreciating against
gold, including the dollar. What's more,
technical factors in all the gold/currency charts
appeared to be bullish. Says Dines, " . .
.Congress is even considering ending the use
of pennies. Arizona Rep. Jim Kolbe wants to
eliminate pennies entirely, rounding prices up
or down to the nearest nickel, and also to
replace the $1 bill with a $2 bill. Which brings
to mind the old expression, 'phony as a $2
bill,' and it might come to represent our very
currency after all. This is how low our
currency managers have sunk. But the real
punishment will be someday meted out to
those who blandly ignored politicians while
they severed the link between gold and the
currencies. Someday a terrifying currency
crisis will erupt in the world . . .One of the
clues might be a bull market in gold." (James
Dines & Co., PO Box 22, Belvedere, CA

But back to 1971. . . .

The dollar went south and gold north. In less
than two years period of time, gold rose nearly
six times -- from $35 to $200 in 1973. It then
retraced to $100 by the mid-1970s. After
solidifying there, it went well over $800 by
1979. If we were to extrapolate a similar
pattern beginning today at the current price,
gold would start at the $265 level and top out
in the first leg at $1500. From there, gold
would retrace to $750 level and subsequently
top out at $6000.

Do I believe that is where we are headed?
Who's to say? I would say $6000 is very
unlikely and that we would be talking about a
complete breakdown of the dollar reserve
monetary system for gold to achieve such lofty
levels. If it did occur, it would occur over
several years period of time. The best indicator
though strangely enough lies in the stock
market where we have achieved price levels
most of the experts would have laughed at
fifteen years ago. Most of it occurred though
as an inflationary push, and who's to say that
such major migration of capital in the direction
of gold wouldn't produce similar results in the
gold market?

If gold is being suppressed, it is being
suppressed for a reason. I believe that reason
has to do with masking the amount of inflation
already created in the world economy and
keeping the nations and the people of the
world firmly hitched to the dollar's star -- for
better or worse. The 1970s example is the
only one we've got such wherein such a
breakdown actually occurred. What does 2001
have in common with 1971? In both years,
gold advocates would have firmly expressed
the belief that the gold price suppression was
artificial and occurring for a reason, and that at
some unforeseen, unexpected moment it
would break down.

As a Wall Street friend of mine has said to me
often: "In order to benefit from what could
happen to gold, you've got to be there." In
other words, you have to own it. The fact of
the matter is that if such a breakdown (as
suggested by Mr. Dines and many other
experienced advisors) were to occur and gold
were to ascend to a lofty level, most gold
holders would understand that what has really
happened in their portfolio is not so much that
they have made a profit, but that they have
survived a dollar collapse and that the
appreciation in their gold holdings is simply a
reflection of the devaluation of their dollar
holdings. None of us wish for such a thing,
we just recognize that the policies in place
could cause it to happen and that a prudent
decision on gold ownership is in our best

For more detailed information,
please call:

(US 800-869-5115) ** (Can
1-800-294-9462) ** (Aus
0011-800-2761-2761) ** (EU

Ask for Marie Ballard on gold orders of 10
ounces or less.

On gold orders over 10 ounces ask for George
Cooper or Michael Kosares.

For a starter information packet which
includes our monthly newsletter generally
considered one of the best, if not the best, in
the industry, please click on link above. Yes! We send
out packets to international prospective

CoBra(too)@ CM Re: Nice and the Irish Rebuff#557506/9/01; 11:06:51

Well, first of all Nice was the lowest level compromise ever in the EU - as France held the Presidency and was in charge of paving the way to some kind of mutual understanding of the EU 15 to a, eventually, the EU 28 they may deserve most of blame. Though the problem is much more deep rooted than that (and I can't help to think that EU in the time of Maggie, Helmut Kohl and Mitterand (admittedly the odd socialist) did a far superior job as the Tonys, Gerhards and the odd coservative Jacques. It will take an heroic effort of all to mend the rift in the Union, as this problem is more derived from past blunders, than genuine. Particularily, as Ireland has not only immensly profited from the EU and once were the staunchest supporters.

Just wondering if the Irish rebuttal will also have, as I feel grave consequences for the Euro at this critical juncture. Ye'r old EU(ro) skeptic. cb2

MK - Thank you, my good friend, for your kind words and the ref. to CMRE - I've had the pleasure of meeting Elisabeth before and only a few months ago we said hello "cyberally".

SHIFTYRockgrabber / Econoclast#557516/9/01; 12:03:55

Do you remember the movie Easy Rider?

A song for you at the link above.


Black BladeTown under siege as missing 'Kruger gold' is found on farm#557526/9/01; 12:13:42


Athol Stark, an Ermelo councillor, said: "Many people died when the Kruger millions were hidden 100 years ago. We owe it to their memory not to let modern bounty hunters disturb it with their modern equipment and disregard for history." Kruger had issued orders in the 1880s that if the British threatened the capital, Pretoria, the entire reserves of the national bank - gold bullion and coins - should be put on wagons and taken into the veld to be hidden. Kruger was forced to flee Pretoria a few days before the British invaded the city in 1900. He died in exile in Switzerland four years later. As most of his faithful aides and generals died in the final days of the war, the exact location of his republic's wealth has remained a mystery.

The one-ounce gold coins, with Kruger's head displayed, are worth about £200 each at today's prices. But on the collectors' market they would fetch many times that, experts say. One dealer said: "Because of the rarity and historical value, the coins, bullion and other wealth could in total be worth £20 million on today's collectors' market."

Black Blade: The Brits would have just sold it off and squander the proceeds anyway. Barbarous relic my a##!

Peter Asher Voters in Ireland Reject Expansion of European Union#557536/9/01; 12:24:51

June 9, 2001

Excerpts <<< When the Irish imagined the inclusion of millions of Polish farmers "with two cows apiece" in the European Union, Mr. Coughlan said, they thought, "Our money would be going to farmers, but it wouldn't be going to Irish farmers; it would be going to Polish farmers."

Ireland is the only European Union country required by its Constitution to have a referendum on the treaty. In other member countries, the treaty is to go before the national legislatures, and its passage has been presented as a virtual certainty.

Other countries in Europe, too, were stunned by the results of the vote.-------

. "It's too bureaucratic an organization, and it's getting too big," -----

Many Irish people feared that ratification of the treaty would force Ireland to take part in the European Union's Rapid Reaction Force, thus disturbing the country's traditional neutrality.

"I don't think the Irish public gives a tinker's curse about European institutional reform," Ben Tonra, deputy director of the European Institute at University College Dublin, said in an interview. "The real issue is Ireland's involvement with the European Rapid Reaction Force."

Goran Persson, Sweden's prime minister and the president of the European Council, and Romano Prodi, president of the European Commission, said that they were "very disappointed" by the result, but that they would continue to work toward expansion.---- Mr. Prodi and Mr. Persson said the European Union, too, had to **** find better ways to explain its work in ways that ordinary people could understand. *****
(end excerpts)

Yeah, those "ordinary people" are messing things up again. When will they ever un-learn!!

Black BladeCooler weather leaving state with surplus of power #557546/9/01; 12:41:54

SUDDEN GLUT: Turnaround leaves regulators skeptical


California faces something it could scarcely have imagined a week ago -- an electricity glut. With mild weather driving down power demand and newly replenished reservoirs pumping out hydroelectric megawatts, dozens of gas-fired plants throughout the state were shut down or running at minimal levels yesterday because their output was unnecessary.

Yesterday also saw good news on the natural gas side of the power equation when the price in some California markets plummeted almost 50 percent over a 24-hour period to the lowest level in more than a year. The sudden electricity glut, meanwhile, has idled plants from one end of the state to the other.

Black Blade: The cooler weather has offered the Grasshoppers a temporary reprieve from higher prices as electricity demand is down. So put another quarter in the juke box, pour some wine, and back to dancing, singing and playing all summer. - Happy days are here again and we can condemn those who work the good Earth to provide for us - yada yada yada. Summer isn't quite over yet.

RockgrabberNote *Stronger Euro*and*Weaker U.S. Economy*and *Inlfaltion*#557556/9/01; 12:45:10

Mr. Shifty, Mr. Econoclast, glad to have ya take this "Flaming Roach" off my hands. I am thinking that would be a good handle for me. Deep thinking minds need to be fed. But hey I am a Commercial Fisherman. My thoughts are more toward more important issues now, then they were in my dry days. I am going to fire up my BBQ now. Then read some new GE articles. Man if I could hike today I would do so barefooted if I had to. I am going to try to catch all the sights I possably can on our next hike. I like the article above. Finding ones like those make looking worth it!
Cavan ManHello CB2#557566/9/01; 12:49:54

You're absolutely right. Before joining the EU, most Irish didn't have two half pennies to rub together. In the last ten years the amount of investment in the "old sod" has been stunning to say the least.

What the EU is attemping to accomplish is incredibly difficult and complicated. Lest we forget, it took the American Civil War to finally cement the current Union.

I take the opposing viewpoint of Euro sceptics with regards to the Irish referendum; I believe it is a good and healthy sign i.e., diagreement and opposition. Perhaps this vote in Ireland will foster needed debate and consequently help shape and mold the new and emerging Europe in the context of "EU" into a better product. I think it will.

Forgive me if I overstep my bounds with you good Sir Knight as I am only an American and a pretty average one at that. I do not think the Euro project will fail because it cannot. I share many of the same concerns that other posters here do and am not an advocate of expediency for its own sake. However, I do think that those who take every opportunity to bash and maul Europe's great project are terribly short sighted and geocentric to the extreme in their analysis of current events. Wrapping oneself in "Old Glory" may be comfortable but, all should be careful of pulling Her over your eyes.

Undo patriotism has always been one of several "last refuges of scoundrels". Humbly submitted.......CM

SHIFTYBill Murphy comments on a news story from the Miningweb #557576/9/01; 12:52:49

Bill Murphy comments on a news story from the Miningweb titled "Gold just won't lie down; surges $7.30 an ounce"



Name Bill Murphy
Email Address This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Subject The Gold Surge

Hello Tim,

This is Bill Murphy, Chairman of the Gold Anti-Trust Action Committee. GATA came to South Africa to wake up the African Continent about what was really going on in the gold market. James Turk, Frank Veneroso, Reg Howe and I gave many days of our time, without pay, to try and be of help.

What we have uncovered and worked so hard on over the past few years can make you and this web site some big bucks in the years to come. Yet, basically, you have disparaged us and our views.

This is most distressing.

Why do you not acknowlege that the price of gold has acted upbeat and "out of sorts" ever since Adam Alejewicz's Dow Jones story on GATA hit the tape on May 9 - the day GATA landed in SA? Why not cover to a greater extent what Reg Howe is up to in his Complaint in Massachusetts Federal District Court? Reg's case could be one of the most famous of all time - and certainly could be one of the biggest boons to gold producers in history.

You have been handed the financial story of a lifetime and are blowing it.

That is your choice. But, don't come to me when the world understands GATA was right all the time and you want copy.

YOU may never have an opportunity such as this the rest of your life. Move NOW, or NEVER call me when the truth shines on the the light of day.

What a shame for you all.

All the best,


Black BladeUS Natural Gas Prices#557586/9/01; 12:59:07

Notice that NG prices in California are near parity to those of the rest of the US. Even so, NG prices are over twice the price of about two years ago when this current energy crisis began to take hold. I posted earlier on some issues converging to pressure the US energy grid. Another factor that I did not have time to address is that the higher costs of fertilizer, pesticides, processing, and power for farmers will be passed on to the consumer. Farmers generally have no pricing power as their profit margins are virtually nonexistent so absorbing the costs are not an option. These higher costs are not in the Core-Rate so the bubble heads will not focus on the inflationary pressures where energy, fuel and food are concerned. However, this inflation does eventually show up, so other statistical filters are used to massage the data. These are just the preliminaries to the big build up to "interesting times."

- Black Blade

Black BladeRE: SHIFTY#557596/9/01; 13:06:45

Did you notice Tim Woods lame response? I think that these writers for this S. Africa based website long for the days of Apartheid and haven't really gotten over it (institutional racism perhaps). They seem to be anti-S. African Gold industry. Maybe because of the large number of blacks that work for the industry and the current political environment. Who owns miningweb anyway, ate they a subsidiary of Goldman sachs or a similar investment house? Some of these guys seem to even relish lower prices inspired by the hedging practices by some producers. Not much dissenting opinion on the forward sales issue. "interesting"

- Black Blade

JMBSHIFTY#557606/9/01; 13:17:47

Your #55757 The MININGWEB -vs- BILL MURPHY

WHAT is the matter with Tim Wood? Is his problem a PRIDE kinda thing? What a shame!

Did you follow the comments after Bill gave his "fair warning" post? Some of those guys write very well but their thinking is so shallow, trite, and uninspiring. Gold bugs....HA....I don't know what they are but I do know they're going to be losers, big time.

SHIFTYBlack Blade#557616/9/01; 13:26:32

I did read Tim's response. I think you are correct. They bash GATA and never point out what is incorrect about Frank's figures.
Things will be interesting tomorrow night when Gold starts to trade.

I think Tim needs an African name! We should send him the link !
Big Smile

$hifty aka Shekwan :-)

SHIFTY(No Subject)#557626/9/01; 13:41:05

Off to the store before the Afternoon Monsoon.


Randy (@ The Tower)Written by James Turk in the months prior to the Central Bank Agreement on Gold (Washington Agreement)#557636/9/01; 16:11:27

Still timely and valid. Perhaps moreso now than it was then, particularly in light of the supporting evidence that followed via the public announcement of the Agreement on September 26th, 1999.

click the URL

Cavan Man@CB (too)#557646/9/01; 16:15:48


Should read (with regards to "Old Glory")..."pulling Her over THEIR eyes". Sorry for any misunderstanding..CM
Cavan ManCB(too)#557656/9/01; 16:19:13

Regarding the Irish......

never trust one; especially the "lace curtain" variety. Here's looking up your kilt.......CM
Gold Trail UpdateThe Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated#557666/9/01; 16:36:43">The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
lamprey_65Gold Weekly#557676/9/01; 16:51:06

Was Friday a "one day wonder"? Has the conclusion of the Brit elections ushered in a new phase of this gold bull market? Has the dollar finally peaked? Are we now setting up for the second, more painful downside to the equities markets?

Unfortunately, all I have is questions this week about the short-term - although I'm confindent of the final conclusions.

Cavan ManStephen Leeb's latest pitcheroo#557686/9/01; 17:12:18

He's singing our song in spades. "HYDROGEN"
MoutainGoldSaturday TA Research.......#557696/9/01; 17:45:46

suggests a continuation of Gold ans gold stock rally. Very good TA patterns and seasonal is strong till August.

USDollar has compact, what I call, Bear Flag Top. This is a very bearish pattern and its resolution is a very fast decline. I have made great trading profits on this pattern, Recenetly DOW made a Bear Flag Top and quickly declined 400 point! Knowledge is always power in trading any market!

Stock market is real tough....make case for big up or big down. Big turn aroung June 21st.

Stagflation is here and living large. What will the brilliant economic minds propose to remedy this very bad economic stage?....oh yea pump in more money.

This Colorado trader says Avalanche will send Devils back to h*ll.....we'll back to Jersey in defeat!!!

All Nice Weekend.

turkey hunterLetter from Another to FOA#557706/9/01; 17:47:39

I think this is a very sobering letter and a wake up call for the $ world. Things are going to change. Maybe I'm over reacting?
Gold Trail UpdateThe Gold Trail Discussion has been Updated#557716/9/01; 19:32:22">The Gold Trail Discussion has been updated. Click on the link to read the latest updates.
tedwEnergy and gold#557726/9/01; 20:33:11


Black Blade:

Intentional or not, your energy posts have lead me to the conclusion that energy investment returns may very well outpace gold investment returns.

Myself,and perhaps others, would like to know which energy companies or gas exploration companies you like.

Not exactly on subject I know but what the heck.

RockgrabberI am getting in way better shape!!!!#557736/9/01; 21:40:39

What Trail Guide presents why not? These physical gold advocates, that he speaks of are folks who cherrish gold as a symbol of wealth. I am sure they are well versed in the history of gold. They have others trapped in a corner they are fighting, but they cant get out of. They are playing a game they cant lose. They seem not to want to let the cat out of the bag untill it claws and scratches its way out. Smartly so, for the most to be gained will be so by allowing things to play out. Cut it short and they will so there losses. If the dollar is losing its place as a reserve currency (certainly at a time it will) why not try to use an entity to sell the paper price into the ground, as you are picking up the real deal? Sell paper gold, for its nothing but that, paper, and buy real gold as its real, and as that one day is realized, you will be ALRIGHT. Its just shocking this is not more realized. After all Paper gold is just paper dollar gold. There losses will be wiped out by inflation almost anyhow. All these players on all sides are protected by entities anyhow. They stand behind a name. Anyways, I am not even out of wind after this last hike. He (trail guide) has been conditioning us real well for this all. I am getting in shape. Thanks sir.
RockgrabberU.S.A. Gold, Or COMEX paper?#557746/9/01; 21:47:05

Either people are buying leveraged gold (bad idea) or buying from a local shop or a place unique such as USA Gold, and getting physical. I know Mr. Kosares and CO. does not sell leveraged gold. In other words if you with to own gold you have to outright buy it. People are putting down payments on gold never ever wishing to have it, but only the dollar prices if it rises. How can a rise ever be sustained wish that frame of thought? Buy the real thing!!!
Rockgrabber(No Subject)#557756/9/01; 21:51:45

I know why I never took delivery of COMEX gold, just to expensive for 100 ounces or more at a time for me. That is that bait in the trap though. I sure would love to take delivery on a contract if I could. I am sure some of you have taken delivery on a COMEX contract. Could you share how it went? How did that feel?
Chris PowellAn update from Reg Howe about the lawsuit#557766/9/01; 21:53:34

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turkey hunter@ Rockgrabber#557776/9/01; 22:00:39

you write...
I know why I never took delivery of COMEX gold, just to expensive for 100 ounces or more at a time for me.

If you don't mind telling me, why was it expensive to take deliverery of gold? How much does it cost? Why did it cost, because of storage? I don't know much about this paper trading.

FOA's two updates are enlighting.

@Moutain Gold. AV's kicked butt tonight. Hockey is a very physical game. Them guys love it though.

SHIFTYTrail Guide#557786/9/01; 22:06:08

Trail Guide: Good to see you back! Any thoughts on physical Gold confiscation? I remember one of Clintons flunkies, I think it was Paul Begalia (spelling) saying something after the signing of an Executive Order "Stroke of the pen law of the land. Pretty cool huh! "
What? if anything would stop governments from STEALING gold from the citizens of the world?
They could make gold teeth contraband if they decided that THEY thought it was best. Just a stroke of the pen.
Any thoughts?


Rockgrabber@Turkey Hunter#557796/9/01; 22:26:45

Sir, for me to take delivery of a COMEX contract I would have to buy at least 100 ounces at a time. That over my spending amount at a time. Every COMEX contract is 100 ounces. First to own the contract it only takes a down payment (margin they call it), then however to take delivery you have to pay the hole amount 100 ounces x 270= 27,000. I only by ounces at a time. I have lost alot of my energy (money) in paper markets, I know them pretty well. Futures and options I have studies for sometime, so this paper stuff I am well versed in. Any questions about it feel free to ask.
turkey hunter@Rockgrabber#557806/9/01; 22:42:34

Thank you sir for the info. I'm like you, and buy oz's at a time. The economy here in the Mid-West is booming, gas is even going down, now around $1.59 a gal. Don't know how long it will last, but people around here got a lot of money to spend, so I should be able to keep walking the trail and pick up a few more oz's before she blows. Have a good one time to get some sleep. Turkey Hunter.
Black BladeRE: Cavan Man and tedw#557816/9/01; 23:30:26

Cavan Man

I still get Stephen Leeb's newsletter sent to me. I know that he has bounced around to various PM stocks like NEM, SIL, SWC, PAL, etc., some PM funds as well. He has also quoted MK in the past in his section about what others recommend. I sometimes think that he's a latent Gold Bug. He and Roger Conrad a contributing editor also push energy and utility shares fairly hard and that is probably not a bad investment these days. Where he officially stands on physical gold I really don't know, though he does stress that the US is headed into an inflationary environment (I agree), though he does not think that the US is headed into recession (I disagree). However, he is one of the few newsletter writers that attempts to explain his position and back it up with data and historical evidence. He also has pushed fuel cell tech with PGM shares as his investment choice to play the sector - maybe a subtle double play on PMs and Fuel Cell Tech? Could also be the reason for the Hydrogen pitch. Hmmm…


I have posted in the past what stocks I hold in the gold, energy and ute sectors though I might say why I hold them, I don't make stock recommendations. I just suggest that one research each potential investment thoroughly. I usually look for undervalued or reasonably valued companies that give good return on equity, that could include a good dividend, historically low PE, and high growth rate for example. I have been adding a bit in NG and some petroleum trusts and limited partnerships, and holding off on gold shares. Physical gold looks better for now as I expect to see the equities markets to come under more pressure. I am actually more of a contrarian investor and I got in when energy was hated by most everyone, that is why I tend more toward PMs now. I just can't see why the general stock market indices have kept rising when most corporate earnings are falling or are nonexistent over the last several quarters. I tend to be more defensive so I hold mostly PMs (stock and physical), energy, energy services, and utilities. I even have a smattering of other stocks as well (i.e. Telecom, Tech, etc.). As far as energy, many shares have already run up as more and more people took notice of the energy crisis and the Bubble Heads in the financial media began to tout the shares. For disclosure reasons only - some shares that I have are: Gold - HGMCY, GOLD, and T.FN, Utes - UCU, D, and SO, Energy - USU, RIG, NBR, APU, BPT, STR, DVN, APC and SJT. As I said, I have mostly been sitting on the sidelines and occasionally adding few select shares and physical to the stockpile. If you want to play the game, I only suggest one research and use only discretionary funds (play money), but first get an anchor in hard assets like PMs. Actually in the current state of the economy, gold could easily outpace energy shares now. We are about to enter into a new phase I believe. Anyway, PMs are more of a contrarian play right now.

- Black Blade

Black BladeBush Won't Exempt Calif. on Gas Rule#557826/10/01; 00:23:33


CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) - The Bush administration will not exempt California from a rule requiring that gasoline contain clean-burning additives such as corn-based ethanol. The decision has far-reaching consequences for the oil industry and Midwestern farmers. "I still strongly believe that ethanol is important, not only to reduce dependency upon foreign sources of energy, but also as a source and a way to clean the air," said Bush, who was spending the weekend at his Texas ranch. The request came from Democratic Gov. Gray Davis of California. Bush, who lost the state in the presidential election, also has rejected Davis' request for federal price caps to ease California's power crisis. The EPA, after consultations with the White House, rejected Davis's plea, concluding the environmental benefits of the oxygenate rule were too important, said an administration official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Black Blade: Role reversal? George Dubya the "Environmental President" and "Red" Davis the "Earth Rapist." How times have changed. Hmmm…

Black BladeShrinking margins prompt European refiners to cut runs #557836/10/01; 00:39:52


A growing number of European oil refiners are being swayed by worsening profit margins to cut runs or seriously consider doing so, traders and company officials said yesterday. Margins have been hit since Iraq halted oil exports and OPEC agreed to hold output steady, keeping crude futures prices high. Oil products have by contrast been relatively weak, with rising U.S. gasoline inventory easing fears of another summer of petrol shortages for the world's biggest energy consumer.

Black Blade: Forget OPEC! Refiners may have more impact on prices in the end. Crude inventories are meaningless if refiners don't manufacture enough of the end product.

Black BladeRefinery Capacity#557846/10/01; 01:02:27

Refinery utilization increased by 1.8 percentage points to 97.1% according to the API, and increased by 1.4 percentage points to 99.4% according to the EIA. That is virtually flat out production. Inventories of crude oil have risen substantially. However, now Iraq has cut off 2 million bbl/day, and any refinery outages or shut downs for maintenance will draw down inventories. Gasoline inventories stand now some 6 million barrels above their level of one year ago. Even so, last years inventories were at historically low levels. As refineries continue to operate at full capacity and somehow even manage to increase capacity utilization, crude oil inputs to over stretched refineries continue to grow. That has resulted in increasing production of motor gasoline and distillates. Now as we head into hurricane season, there is also the threat of weather related refinery and offshore production shut downs. Last week there was a fire and a storage tank explosion related to the tropical storm Allison. Many aging refineries are due for scheduled maintenance and while prices have pulled back, many may use this time to go off line to do maintenance work. Meanwhile, European refineries may reduce output and that could further pressure the US distillate markets.

- Black Blade

Black BladeGlow with gold campaign aims to polish tarnished image#557856/10/01; 01:22:52


LONDON: Plagued by two decades of falling prices, world gold producers are planning a multi-million dollar advertising campaign aimed at ridding gold of its playboy image and restoring some glitter to the tarnished metal. In the most expensive marketing campaign of its 14-year history, the World Gold Council (WGC) will spend US$55mil over the next year in a bid to raise demand by 50% over five years.

Black Blade: That's it? A slogan - "Glow With Gold?" How pathetic. And it only cost them $55 million.

NetkingTed Butler - Answer to Solomon Weaver#557866/10/01; 02:02:23

Ted has asked me to post an answer to your recent question below - regards Netking
Solomon Weaver(5734)
I love Ted Butler....but on this little point I ask him to reconsider . . . "How do you get supplies from inventories in a free market? Only with higher prices. Period. It's impossible to take inventory away from long-term holders with lower and not higher prices." Ted Butler

There is a phenomenon called capitulation selling to "cut your losses". . . . .

Also, a seller seeking to boost "liquidity" will sell the worst performing asset.
Poor old Solomon
Ted Butler's reply:

While Solomon is correct that supplies and inventories of anything can and are sold in a capitulation, such selling must be considered short term - days, or weeks, or maybe even months, in the case of large institutional holdings. Capitulation connotes fear, and a certain emotional aspect to such selling.But fear (and its counterpart, greed), being emotional, must be short term in nature. After all, how long can one stay frightened about a financial holding? You either sell or get over your fear pretty quickly. Certainly, it is implausible to imagine fear and capitulation selling in silver lasting for a year, or, incredibly, more than a decade. Besides, look at a long term chart on silver(going back 10 years), it's a flat-line. I could accept boredom as a resulting emotion, but not fear.

I want to thank Solomon for his suggestion that I reconsider my statement, and am somewhat surprised that noone else has challenged it. The shocking continuous reports of deficits and vanishing inventories, amid decling
prices, is the clearest proof that silver is manipulated. Period.

The Invisible HandWhat is the GATA camp hiding?#557876/10/01; 02:06:20

I'm not sure whether their reasons are similar but after yesterday's posts by Another and FOA, it seems that both the A/FOA camp and the GATA camp agree that a price spike is imminent.
I am however puzzled by the fact that the GATA camp dares not publish the briefs filed after Howe's consolidated opposition to all defendants' motions. The GATA camp has published Howe's arguments that the briefs filed after Howe's consolidated brief are too late, but why dare they not publish those briefs of the cabal after Howe's consolidated opposition to all defendants' motions? Or did I overlook them?

geThe Invisible Hand msg#: 55787#557886/10/01; 04:49:21

Defendant filings can be found at the above link.
CoBra(too)Bill Buckler in his latest "Privateer" #557896/10/01; 05:22:57

writes about "The Fate of the U.S Dollar".

As this seems a really important message and congruent to the recent essays of A/FOA i will again try to get Bill to post it at usagold's Gilded Opinion.

Though, before doing this I would like to ask permission by our gracious host, M.K. ...

Thank you - cb2

Canuck@ JMB#557906/10/01; 05:24:28

JMB (06/08/01; 15:51:57MT - msg#: 55709)
GENEBABY, GOLDENROD@webtv, and GREENSPAN...all the same guy? Yep, I can confirm that from a fairly reliable source. I also heard that GOLDBUGGERER over a kitco is GREENSPAN.

-End quote-

Take a cold shower.

AbsoluteXCurrancy Speculation (Currancy Trade is x20 of the Real Trade#557916/10/01; 06:47:19

Prof. Dr Mahthir's famous speech on that 20.Sep.1997

24. There may be no conspiracy as such but it is quite obvious that a few at least, media as well as fund managers, have their own agenda which they are determined to carry out.

25. We have always welcomed foreign investments, including speculation. They can come in to buy shares and to get out if they wish to for whatever reason. But when the big funds use their massive weight in order to move the shares up and down at will and make huge profits by their manipulations then it is too much to expect us to welcome them, especially when their profits results in massive losses for ourselves in the classic zero sum game theory.

26. International trading makes currency exchange necessary. Otherwise we may have to resort to barter. Buying and selling currency to finance trade is fine. But out of this evolved pure trade in currency as a commodity.

27. We are told that the trade in currency is actually 20 times bigger than real trade in goods and services. Other than profits and losses to the traders involved, there really is no tangible benefits for the world from this huge trade. No substantial jobs are created nor products or services enjoyed by the average people. The whole trading is secretive and a bit shady as huge sums are apparently moved about from banks to banks. No real money are involved, only figures. One billion Malaysian ringgits would need a big truck to move from place to place. Obviously this is physically impossible if the Great Train Robbery is not to be repeated hundreds of times over.

28. The traders apparently make billions with each transaction. But when the funds at their disposal is huge and they are in a position to influence the values of the currencies with their investments and divestments then the currency market become cash cows to them. They cannot fail to make a profit whichever way the index goes.

29. Unfortunately their profits come from impoverishing others, including very poor countries and poor people. South East Asian countries have now become their target simply because, we have the money but not enough to defend ourselves.

30. In the case of Malaysia, the ringgit is devalued by 20 percent. What this means is that we, everyone of us including the Government, have lost 20 percent of the purchasing power of whatever money we have. The poor have become poorer and there are now more poor people in Malaysia. The rich have become poorer too but we will not waste any sympathy on them of course.

31. But the currency traders have become rich, very very rich through making other people poorer. These are billionaires who do not really need any more money. Even the people who invest in the funds they operate are rich; we are told that the average return is about 35 percent per annum.

32. And we are told that we are not worldly if we do not appreciate the workings of the international financial market. Great countries tell us that we must accept being impoverished because that is what international finance is all about. Obviously we are not sophisticated enough to accept losing money so that the manipulators become richer.

33. We are also warned that these are powerful people. If we make a noise or we act in any way to frustrate them they would be annoyed. And when they are annoyed they can destroy us altogether, they can reduce us to basket cases. We have to accept that they are around, that they will always be around and that there really is nothing we can do about it. They will determine whether we prosper or we don't.

34. Once upon a time the U.S. allowed monopolies. Then Rockefeller cornered the oil industry in America and destroyed the small players and squeezed the consumers. The U.S. government decided that this was not right and outlawed monopolies through the Anti-Trust Laws.

35. A few decades back some enterprising people hit on the idea acquiring controlling interest in companies and then stripping their assets. The shell left by them was incapable of giving any return to the small shareholders. Thousands of people lost money.

36. Again the government stepped in and required anyone acquiring more than a certain percentage of shares to make an offer for the rest. That way the small shareholders were able to dispose of their shares at the offered price. They were relieved of the possibility of owning shares in useless companies.

37. To prevent other abuses, anyone buying more than five percent of the shares have to declare.

38. When insiders made use of inside information to sell or buy their own shares it was regarded as unfair advantage and was made illegal.

39. I mention all these because society must be protected from unscrupulous profiteers. I know I am taking a big risk to suggest it, but I am saying that currency trading is unnecessary, unproductive and immoral. It should be stopped. It should be made illegal. We don't need currency trading. We need to buy money only when we want to finance real trade. Otherwise we should not buy or sell currencies as we sell commodities.

40. We cannot go back to Bretton Woods and the fixed exchange rates although we should be honest enough to admit that fixed exchange rates did not hold up the economic recovery of the world in the post World War period. It was wrong only because it did not really reflect the economic performance of the nations concerned. Sovereign nations were allowed to devalue at will.

But the float resulted in nations losing their sovereign rights. Currency traders emerged who made killings tracking the snake etc. But they were relatively small players. They were not the movers and shakers who ruled the market. They were mere speculators.

41. No one I think would want to return to the fixed exchange rates. But if anarchy is abhorred by good citizens everywhere, there is no reason why we should not abhor, anarchy in the world financial system. A certain degree of uncertainty is fine but an absolutely uncertain financial world is no good for anyone, except of course for those who deliberately create the uncertainty. But then these people know for certain what they are going to do and could take cover or take advantage. For them there is no uncertainty. They are dealing in absolute certainty and they cannot possibly lose. If insider trading is unfair, outsiders who know exactly what is going to happen and then trade, can it be said to be fair?

42. If trade is to grow then currency values must be linked to the economic performance of the countries concerned. There are enough indices which can help indicate the value of the currencies, and the rates of exchange. A country that is doing reasonably well at a certain exchange rates should be allowed to maintain the rate. If the country is doing badly, devaluation can help the country by making their costs lower and their products more competitive. On the other hand, if the country is too competitive it is safe to assume that the currency is undervalued. Since many factors are involved, many rates are possible. Traders can then take the risk and trade in the currency, if they must.

43. This way there will not be a fixed rate but the range of fluctuation will not be too wide. There will be enough uncertainty for genuine traders but there will not be violent swings as to cause financial crisis for the country concerned.

Trade would not be too disrupted and would in fact he enhanced, increasing the wealth for everyone. It would be a win win situation.

BelgianGold Giants (Trail)#557926/10/01; 07:16:51

Easy to understand and accept that the broad public (individuals) are not aware of the Giant Gold Opportunity that is still under development. But many other well informed Powers must be in the know of the dollar/euro shift and the Golden opportunity of physical gold. My question is : are they the accumulators of sold CB's gold in order to not disturb the paper master plan of low POG ?
How can we otherwise explain that large amounts of physical gold is accumulated by others than oil-producers ? How could this be done without any price pressure on gold ?

If the Euro and Oil agreed on "The Golden Surprise" with agreements dated several years already...what prevented the anticipation on this with a weakening dollar and strengthening POG ? Is political banking colluding with the PTB to plunder the individuals with the help of an intense smokescreen and paradox ? And are they walking hand in hand for that big Gold Surprise ? Fascinating !

EconoclastBelgian: "How could this be done without any price pressure on gold ?"#557936/10/01; 08:12:00

It has been my suspicion/feeling through anecdotes, rumors, and some thinking/common sense that many of the actors in the gold manipulation game have been buying and accumulating physical gold privately, while in their professional capacities they have been selling it down. Isn't that what you'd do if you were being paid large sums of dollars to influence the price of an asset below what you know to be its true value?
I believe that it is the huge size of the paper markets relative to the volume of physical gold traded that allows entities to acquire physical quietly. If I were a partner at Goldman Sachs and I wanted to "buy" $20 million worth of gold, I would know to do it in batches. If my purchases did become factored into the pricing and it did rise, my firm would step in to sell paper to counter that, allowing me to buy my next batch without the price having gone up.
For another way to look for the answer to your question, look at the silver market and try to figure out how almost all of the above ground silver has been used up without causing a price rise. To my mind, gold is much simpler since there are large idle stocks in vaults to be used as needed. The fact that it's been done in silver without the ability to draw on huge, idle CB stockpiles shows just how easy this game is.

CoBra(too)A few Snippets from Bill Bucklers latest Report -#557946/10/01; 09:29:32

'Today, we live in fantastic as well as horribly dangerous economic times. The times are fantastic because Mr. Greenspan's Fed monetary policy is the realm of economic and monetary fantasy!

Mr. Sean Corrigan has pinpointed, in a most elegant, concrete way, what Mr. Greenspan is currently doing. Using factswhich cannot be escaped, Mr. Corrigan makes the point that since the start of this year, the Fed under Alan Greenspan has been creating fresh new "money" at a rate of $US 3.1 Billion - EVERY DAY!

... That's 16% annualized rate of monetary expansion ...

... No currency can sustain its international value indefinitely while subjected to this treatment. The U.S.$ is enexoably being driven off a cliff. In this context, the "horrible dangers" referred to above are the sustained bubble on U.S. stock markets and the expanding one in the U.S. economy and in real estate. All of these bubbles are now being "rolled together".
What They Add Up To Is A Global U.S. DOLLAR BUBBLE!'

So, we've had A/FOA, Droke, Sean Corrigan and many others and now Bill Buckler commenting on the same absurd and blatant credit bubble and the demise, which has to arise from the "irrational exuberant" money creation of the/a creature escaped from Jeckyll Island. ... and now on to the Genoa Conference ... have a nice Sunday (no pun intended)cb2

Buena FeBelgian (6/10/01; 07:16:51MT - msg#: 55792)#557956/10/01; 10:29:10

Belgian, I believe you have exposed the first bones of a huge beast, we must gather around for a substantial archaeological dig that may lead us to some exciting discoveries. Auspec lets get a camp set up! I'll run and get some shovels, picks and brushes........Be back later.
PH in LAWhere does ANOTHER do his research?#557966/10/01; 10:32:31

"Some knew what was coming from the beginning. With the Hague Conference of Heads of State in 1969 sprang Copenhagen Report of 23rd July 1973. We pointed and all continued to turn away to follow where power was, not where it was going. With the Solemn Declaration in Stuttgart (1983) closely followed by the Single European Act (1987) even the BIS then understood the final goal. Margaret (Thatcher) soon expressed that signing that proposition (the Solemn Act) was her greatest mistake in office. While I do agree with her on a strategic political basis, such reflections by British leader only exposes the ignored, nearing failure of their shared singular currency dominance (both USA and England). Little is expressed of the wealth lost of our peoples and that of most Western economies as these government's efforts to preserve this failing system drains real wealth from our world." FOA (6/9/01; 16:36:42MT - msg#75)
A letter from Another to FOA.

"The origins of the EPC can be traced back to The Hague Conference of Heads of State in 1969. The following year the Luxembourg Report was published establishing the aims and methods of pragmatic co-operation in the field of foreign policy. Provision was made for regular meetings of Foreign Ministers. The Copenhagen Report of 23rd July 1973 took this a stage further requiring that Member States consult each other before taking a final foreign policy stance. A series of further meetings and reports culminated in the signing of a European Act: Solemn Declaration on European Union at the Council Meeting in Stuttgart, 19th June 1983."

Note the striking co-incidence of terminology in the two passages above. Pure chance?

JMBPH in LA#557976/10/01; 10:51:04

Scandal Brewing at USA Gold

Are you suggesting "plagiarism"?
Belgian@ Econoclast#557986/10/01; 10:53:45

Indeed Sir, most probably it are the same idendities who organise the paper (down) price, wich are accumulating the physical. Probably, there are newcomers, at present, without access and backing of the paper cover, who start accumulating very cautiously. But then again, whenever a specific goldaccumulator is ready with enough physical gold in his vaults...what is witholding him (her) to trumpet it out that he and his friends are ready and that Gold is ready to go. I do over-simplify, there must be at least a bunch of stubborn and impatient contrarians with enough power to signal that there is something big in the air ?
There are limits guess in overstretching the offer/demand, as far as physical concerns. And a POG bottoming for full 3 years seems quite sufficient time to be physically prepared and in pole position.

In your comparaison with silver, there must be some other facts that we overlook. For the simple reason that a rightout flat price for full 10 years is quite an enormous anomaly. Is it also orchestrated because of silver's possible signal function (bimettalism) towards Gold ? Maybe ? A rising silverprice and declining POG would be spotted immediately.

Apart from already known PTB who probably are at the same time manipulator and accumulator, we have no idea about independant (less powerfull) contrarians.

A genial theory (about gold) can be very sound and extremely waterproof but still needs some factual hooks to be kept alive and kicking.

Thanks for your respons.

Gandalf the WhiteGREAT tie Sir PhD in LA#557996/10/01; 11:31:02

But note that the "t" in "The Hague" was not capitalized !

BelgianTheory#558006/10/01; 11:36:38

Invisible : I don't understand the technecality you are questionning. Please elaborate what might be the reason for not having published the mentioned. Thanks (en groetjes).

Buena Fe: Yep Sir, I've already been digging for so long and still don't recognize the beast. If Au(in)spec(tor) shows up...I'll have another sleepless night with his provoking stuff wich makes me sooooo restless.

The houses of Sauds Kings are not going to tell us what exactly was agrred on with the Euro and their shared friend Goldie. Kuwait is not on their side. Remember their cabal friendly gesture of 75 tonnes suppressing gold. Is Lebanon in the same camp ? Rumors of the same kind of helpfull golden hand ? And is the recent POG (mini) spike a Blairisch coincidence ? And will the USof A loose a loyal friend if and when the Euro referendum in the UK, says Yes ?

To what price does gold have to rise to compensate for a decrease in the 75% reserves of global dollardecline?
It might be an indication for future POG valuation.
Are there signs that the middle east, except for the Saddam ballon, is favoring the Euro/oil/gold equation ?

Is there any (investment) Fund that accumulates physical gold (not goldmines) and does advertise as such publicly ?
Is there not a single private idendity out there that dares to say it is holding, investing and accumulating physical gold ? Do pools (private individuals) of accumulated physical gold exists ?
Was it publicly known that LTCM and Tiger Fund had physical gold in their books and under what form ?

It is a pity we do not know more about the "nature" of the mentionned Giants (Big Traders -Goldadvocates) ?
It would surely help if we had some more precise information instead of opaque perception.
Isn't this a major problem for all candidate Goldphiles who have some difficulties with "believing" ?

RockgrabberThe Giants#558016/10/01; 11:46:09

These folks have an utmost respect for the value of gold, and they dont like it linked to paper. Paper would be better off being measured in gold, rather then gold being measured in paper.

Beligian I bet they are the ones taking the banks actioned gold. They know COMEX is only being used to make them a artificially low gold price. They cant actually buy their gold from the paper exchanges, they only use those pricing paper exchanges to set their auction prices. THEY WANT MORE AND MORE PHYSICAL (as we all do). Everyday means that much more. They are going to pull out every trick they have to keep the low priced gold flowing to themselfes. And untill COMEX breaks they seem to be OK. Two different views of folks. First, they see gold as money that is unleveragable. The next group sees golds only real use as a leveraged instrument to make Paper profits off. The war lines are drawn. In this war though the winning group has a definite victory at hand. You cant fight GOLD as value!!! If you do (Goldman Sachs, JP, and good Co.) then prepare to die. Those entities have names to protect people behind them anyhow.

Good researching Sunday to you all!

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeIs there a solution for the REAL ESTATE TRAP?#558026/10/01; 11:49:55

In a world in which down is up, wrong is right, and paper is gold- is there an answer to the "problem" of not having your home mortaged? When real estate values plunge it will not be felt as long as I do not sell or borrow against equity. Is there any way to "harvest" equity now in anticipation of the demise of real estate, while still living in the home? (Other than getting an equity loan.) After all the work on the place, I am not keen on moving unless I have to.

Have been hiking the trail for a while now to ever higher elevations. The air here is thin, and my tank is low. Have stayed on budget by applying mortage payment to accumulating physical. Once this decision was made it became reflexive. The only paper contract/investment I trust is the one in which I promise to uphold. Other than improving real estate and subdividing for immediate sale, all real estate is still too inflated. If/when credit crunch time, I'll end up with deer, boar, and squirrels for tenants.

All options still look so risky, and have since 1997. In the face of so many false starts, and seemingly utter repudiation of common sense in the fundamentals effecting the POG, this accumulating has turned into a singular act of blind faith. Other than continuing to acquire and hold physical PMs, does anyone have any suggestions? Request advice from those who have stood at this point on the trail before. Was your trail straight ahead or did it fork?

RockgrabberA war is brewing#558036/10/01; 11:52:34

I have been feeling a war is at hand. I feel so after having put much research into this Mid-East sittuation. I will go find reasons why I think so today and post them with links. Stay tuned on this here.... This will show who is really in who's camps.
megatronStocks,Lies..#558046/10/01; 12:17:01

Have you heard of annuities, particularly the swiss variety?
Or offshore CD's in Swiss Fr? If your already betting that gold is going to come through bigtime, then these should do very well in the ensuing $US move down. Companies like Minefinders and SilverStandard have over 400 million ounces of silver in proven reserves and NO DEBT! It's like the cheapest longest non-expiring call on silver you can think of.

auspecEnding Manipulation?#558056/10/01; 12:21:07

The following is a couple sentence snippet from Jay Taylor's "Musings On Gold" posted at GE. I have put asterisks by some perticularly pertinent infprmation.


From a general Republican vs. Democratic philosophical point of view and on the basis of at least one recent Bush appointment, there is reason to believe the Bush administration may not be willing to uphold the American side of the gold price fixing scheme. **And incidentally, for reasons I cannot get into here, there is reason to believe the President himself is very much aware of GATA's gold price fixing charges.**

With respect to Bush appointments, on May 31st, the President announced the intention of nominating Sheila Blair to be Assistant Secretary of the Treasury for Financial Institutions. Why is this of interest to us gold bugs? Because this lady was fired by Bill Clinton back in 1998 immediately after she urged greater transparency, regulatory controls and cooperation among international regulators with respect to OTC derivative markets. If confirmed, in her new post she would again have a voice in proposing regulation that would reduce the ability of the kind of price manipulation we have been experiencing in the gold markets by shedding light on the unethical and in some instances we think illegal behavior of crony capitalist friends of the United States government. Ms. Blair's concern back in 1998 which prompted here to urge greater transparency was prompted by the Long Term Capital Management debacle, which thanks in large part to a huge short position in gold, the global financial system was, by the Fed's own admission, gravely imperiled.


I received a call Friday evening from Bill Murphy, Chairman of GATA. He was extremely upbeat on Friday evening, following Friday's $7.30 rise in the price of gold. **With a great deal of excitement, Bill insisted he was absolutely certain that the gold rigging days for the defendants in the Reginald Howe case are all but over.** Bill insists that we are on the verge of witnessing a truly great bull market explosion in gold.

Bill pointed out that the move in gold on Friday began immediately after the London market closed, just as it did a few weeks ago when gold cut through the $275 level Alan Greenspan reportedly said he could no longer defend. Moreover, Greenspan reportedly arranged for the British to provide bullion cover for several American bullion banks, presumably those named in the Reginald Howe lawsuit. So, it may indeed be significant that these bullish runs have taken place immediately after the close of the London market because through the end of the Clinton administration, the manipulation of the gold market has been a joint Anglo-American effort. But why on Friday, would the buyers not have waited until the British come back into the market on Friday? I can only speculate on this, but perhaps it was because they had to deliver the gold in a timely fashion and could not wait until Monday. Or, it might also not be that the major gold buyers, now on the long side of the gold market, reportedly George Soros, the Middle East and China, know very well Frank Veneroso's numbers rather than the World Gold Council's supply and demand numbers are correct. {If a gentleman pretending to be James M. Bond, or initials thereabout, in Her Majesty's Service, follows this post with scorn, skepticism, and derision, please realize where his allegiances lie and be very gentle with him, he's close to the big crack-up.} And knowing this (and perhaps much more from their privileged positions), they understand time is running out for the Cartel and that the Brits will not be able to hold down the price of gold come Monday. END

Comment: Much is happening between the lines and behind the scenes. Get it! Go GATA!

megatronBlackBlade#558066/10/01; 12:34:41

It is nothing less than pure comedy to see the hypocrite Davis chew his own arm off.

This WGC money is a waste of time. The best bang for the buck would be to hire famous Hip-hop artists to design the jewlery for thier videos and give it to them free. The demand would be far more substantial and long lasting. Most of my rap friends now have ALL gold teeth, some have a diamond in the front. That is cool. Besides they would not have done if it hadn't been done in a popular video. Once the white ghettos(suburbs) start likin' it it would really take off.

BeowulfWorking-kirk regarding msg#: 55730#558076/10/01; 13:20:25

Thanks for the links. I'll take a look at them.


tedwreal estate#558086/10/01; 13:26:33

Stock,lies, and ticker tape:

Since I have a background in real estate, I will try and answer your question.

As far as I know, there is no way to harvest equity other than to sell or get an equity loan of some type.However,there are some creative things you could consider along those lines.

An option might be to sell your property (hopefully you are over 55 and can take your one time captial gains exemption). Then you can turn around and lease/option another comparable property (or maybe even arrange such a deal with your buyer) where you rent a property but have an option to buy with some the rent proceeds being applied to the purchase price at a date in the future (say 5 years away).In the contract to lease option have the purchase price to be determined by an average of 2 independent fee appraisers (one chosen by you and one by the seller). In the event prices decline,you would have your equity proceeds plus have a lock on a purchase of a comparable property at the new (hopefully much lower values).

Thats the best I can think of.

Christian(No Subject)#558096/10/01; 13:45:32

Profit squeeze ahead on all things mined or grown on land. The cost of production (inputs) are going up while the finshed product to sell is going down. M3 is feeding the consumer debt express, where consumers are borrowing to spend on what they have not saved. This lifestyle bubble is forcing consumers to retrench causing the economy to retrench. Income can no longer be dollarized except by becoming more debt. There simply is no other source of money except to borrow it into existence. How does one repay debt with debt dollars- i.e. lease gold to sell and hope it falls. Greenspans said,"Debt cannot repay debt in agggregate. Only earnings can retire debt". The $3.1 billion daily debt money expansion is not money supply expansion, it is rather capital destruction. This $3.1 billion are loans which someone has to borrow and give physical assets to guarantee in return for phony money. Greenspan said," Debt cannot be paid off with debt, and debt generates no aggregate income that isn't offset by more debt. Today Greenspan is backstopping the ever increasing gold short positions of member banks in hopes of getting out of the debt trap the FED puts on the economy by feeding the consumer debt express. By backstopping the member banks gold short position Greenspan is anti gold. How can he end the monetization of government debt when Congress only knows how to spend. How can he end the monetization of the reserve currency called the dollar. In 1995 Rubin had a plan= increase the net reserves of the world as a whole with credit creation gold that is made up of a bundle of commodities (oil, natural gas, metals, grains and housing). Stimulate investment which went into the dot coms and facilitate the repayment of excisting debt which instead of paying debt down turned into debt increase. Rubin's plan looks good on paper but failed because his and wall street's greed for profit at the expense of making the plan work. Now we have two options left,1- bankruptcy or, 2- ruin the value of the dollar. As I see it 2 is no longer possible because Greenspan can pump the credit supply all he wants just like Japan is doing and the only takers will be those who can profit from lower interest rates. I see the dollar getting stronger as interest rates go to 1 % in less then 4 years. Consumer debt is now so high that the value of the dollar will stay high because an ever increasing amount of dollars are needed to service that debt and little will be left for anything else then pay living expenses and gas for the car.
BelgianThe shorted tonnes....#558106/10/01; 13:52:14

Several open minds in South Africa also suggest the 600$ price target for Gold. A bizar and unexplainable (intuitive) consensus seems to grow around this number 600$.
Could it be that, if the manipulators and friends are getting into real trouble...that arrangements have already been made to consider the CB-leased Gold as definitely sold and be paid back in fiat at a consensus (arranged-managed) price compromis of 600$, where all parties are only to suffer acceptable and overcomable losses ? And the collectivity with its bureaucrats don't give a thing about lost (sold) citizen's gold. 5 years at 400 tonnes (+ some non WA tonnes)is less than 10% of the total CB's reserves that has been sacrificed for the paper profit game. Thanks.

The China treat seems to be taken serious as a hidden war-declaration on the US and its $. For this same reason POG could be manoeuvered to the same level in the appropiate time schedule.

POG balanced at 600$ should ease some tensions and take some steam of the kettle. All "friends", involved will be adequately briefed in advance with many thanks for their cooperational spirit.

From a stabilized balance price of 600$, everything would be left to offer/demand realities, again.

Just an idea, nothing more ! And I don't sell one picogram of my coins at that price of 600$.

BelgianAbsolute X # 55791#5581106/10/01; 14:17:30

The Malay professor is describing things as they are. This gentlemen makes a common mistake to believe in kind of ideal world. Nice, very nice, but innocently naive, unfortunately. But his speech is instructive. Thanks.
And may we advise him to start with Malaysia as well to put things in order ?

Auspec : will the eventual ending of the present Gold Manipulation be examplary for the future ? Or will it be replaced by another kind of artificial affair ?
As long as these so called transparent and predictable CBs aren't able to add to their goldreserves, without provoking a massive distrust in fiat...we are not out of the woods with gold containment in one or the other way.
Of course, its only a dream, but...I want this gold out of the collectivity's hands. Any suggestions how I can succeed in such a tidal move ? Will you still help me...when I'm sixty four...lalaldila ?

TomBelgian - lookin for a gold bullion fund?#5581206/10/01; 14:32:12

IF memory is workin at all these days it's called I think
The Central Fund of Canada of somethinh like that, but there
is a FUND that does bullion. Sorry could not be more sure of the name but it has been a while on that fund.
Good Luck!

auspecBelgian Buena Fe Econoclast#5581306/10/01; 14:42:15

Per Belgian's post #55810:

"Could it be that, if the manipulators and friends are getting into real trouble...that arrangements have already been made to consider the CB-leased Gold as definitely sold and be paid back in fiat at a consensus (arranged-managed) price compromis of 600$, where all parties are only to suffer acceptable and overcomable losses ? ****And the collectivity with its bureaucrats don't give a thing about lost (sold) citizen's gold.**** 5 years at 400 tonnes (+ some non WA tonnes)is less than 10% of the total CB's reserves that has been sacrificed for the paper profit game." END

Makes much sense! They sell "our" gold {which they hold} to prop up "their" paper {which we hold}. Various cronies get richer in the process, ending up with physical or resources in the ground. Business as usual. However, we give them way too much credit as Journeyman suggests and much gold escapes to jewelry and private hands. Most are not likely smart enough to make the connection to actually buy the physical. They simply don't value it in the "public resource" format. It is a small component of overall reserves and can simply be explained away. Public gold equates with autonomy and must be taken down in order to gain dependence and uniformity of countries. We're going global and digital sooner or later.
The Big Dig {not Boston}- Lots of things need to be buried in Boston, not dug up! Buena Fe, can't tell what that Beast is, but it is clearly not 'the big fish', which remains unidentified to date. I have been on too many empty handed fishing trips. Let's continue the excavation!
Belgian, the Central Fund of Canada {CEF on American Exchange} holds physical gold and silver. "DO pools {private individuals} of accumulated physical gold exist?" YES!!!!!! YES!!!!!! And more as we speak. LTCM was rumored to be short around 300 tons of gold, unsure about Tiger.
Whither Britain? Clintoon is out of elected power, Bush will pull back on the Anglo Gold Pool, and Blair cannot stand alone {he seems to have the same problem Linda Blair had in The Exorcist, must be some inbreeding}. Britain must/will decide to go Euro and join the GoldPhiles there. Looks like the end of the rope to me. Hang em high.
Bill Murphy has stuck to his guns that the current US leadership is pulling out of the gold manipulation game. We are in the middle of a ultra high stakes game, and it's time to show the cards. The loser pays in $600 oz gold for starters.
All of this will work out on paper, their paper world, but who will hold the gold when the music stops?

Centennial Precious Metals, Inc. / USAGOLDHard assets... easy access!#5581406/10/01; 15:56:57

"Gold, like Opportunity, does not knock urgently."

-- R. Strauss

NetkingManipulated POG a prerequisite in $16 Trillion Int. rate derivatives held by JP Morgan Chase. #5581506/10/01; 17:14:43

GoldGate's Real Motive? (from

"We restate our findings on preemptive selling as validation of gold market intervention. In addition, we restate our discovery that in August 2000 1700 tonnes of US Treasury gold bullion reserve underwent a change in ownership consistent with a sale to a foreign entity. However, the motives attributed to those parties responsible for this gold manipulation have been historically weak. We have been troubled by the enormous risks taken by those responsible for free market manipulation and have been seeking clues to justify such risks. In this essay we explore the possibility that gold price suppression may have been part of a much larger scheme which depended in part upon a controlled price of gold.

We suggest that a manipulated gold price was a prerequisite for the assumption of the $16 Trillion in Interest Rate Derivatives currently held by JPMorgan Chase. We draw attention to these disproportionate derivative positions and remind readers that the associated risks attached to these interest rate derivatives depend in part of inflationary expectations.

Our preliminary data is shown in the attached chart describing the Interest Rate Derivative Positions held by JPMorgan Chase and the next largest US banks compared to the rest of the US banking system which hold these derivatives. As you can see JPMorgan Chase has taken a $16 Trillion dollar position in Interest Rate Derivatives. Please note as well the Q3 1999 sharp increase by Chase (at that time). This increase coincided with a long period of gold price quiescence...a prerequisite for successful derivatives strategies. At the end of the quarter the WA upset that quiescence bringing unwanted volatility to Chase and it's huge position. Recall from Nicholas Dunbar's book "Inventing Money", the LTCM disaster was hastened by
volatility, indeed it played the key role."

R PowellHoliday downunder#558166/10/01; 18:17:04

From Goldenaussie in response to how gold is doing in Aussieland, "It's a holiday over here today. You'll have to wait for H.K."
Was the runup in New York timed to take place just after London closed and on the day before an Australian holiday? H.K. open in about 40 minutes.
Don't tell the SEC that I fed both Spot and Spike steak all weekend. They might view that as market manipulation. Hopefully they'll get lots of exercise this week.

auspecGold & The White House#558176/10/01; 18:21:25

Just in from Bill Murphe at LeMetropole Cafe:

I have a strong suspicion that they are turning most in the White House. In my last communique to Donald Lindsey, The President's economic advisor, I suggested that he call up all the central banks and find out what the true gold loan number are. He could find out in days if Frank Veneroso's 10,000 to 16,000 tonne numbers were correct.

If he has done so (and why would he not), then The White House knows they have a BIG problem to deal with.

I have been pondering the big spike up to $298 and the just as sudden drop. The point that I would like to rehash is the fact that the Bank of Nova Scotia surprised by delivering over 3,000 contracts with J.P. Morgan Chase stopping over 2,000 of them and taking in all they could get their hands on.

All along we have reported that the gold fraud game was likely to end in May. But, I think what happened is that Greenspan and Co. panicked when gold took off and they knew that someone could squeeze the June Comex gold contract.

A default by a major U.S. financial exchange cannot be tolerated.

Some deal had to have been worked out with the Bank of Nova Scotia - perhaps at the urging of the Canadian Government. My guess also is that the gold fraud game IS ending and this was just a short term maneuver to get deliverable gold into the hands of J.P. Morgan. Squeezes will be that much harder if Morgan is going after the deliverable gold. Morgan won't squeeze itself.

That does not mean that the price won't skyrocket. It will. But, it will make it less likely that the Comex will have a default. And, I say, less likely only. The gold problem is so massive, anything can happen.

Comment: Repeat "The White House knows they have a BIG problem to deal with." Bet you that 50% of the people blame Clintoon and 50% blame Bush.

SHIFTYauspec#558186/10/01; 18:35:11

Mail call
ETMichael Peirce#558196/10/01; 18:53:43

An excerpt of required reading from Michael Peirce;

"California's problems were obvious to everyone else in the free world – why
should we care if they must suffer the consequences of living in la la land? It's
hilarious to hear them blaming Texas. Gray Davis has done more for the cause of
freedom than we could ever do for ourselves – he has made a complete fool of
himself and all the socialist policies he and his associates have been peddling all
these years. Yeah, Mr. Davis – if it gets too chilly next winter maybe Humberto
Fontova could shoot some spotted owls and you can sit around the campfire with
him, and if you're nice, maybe he'll give you a wing.

"Our government has passed an imaginary tax cut and they are flabbergasted,
despite their posing and photo ops that we couldn't care less. We just aren't that
stupid anymore and that really scares ‘em. It should. They are looking over their
shoulders now, and pretending things are the same as always, but they are not and
those bums know it all too well. The days of thanking those people for pretending
to give us some of our own money back are over and done with.

"The FBI expected "good patriotic Americans" to stand up for them after their
series of Keystone Cops style blunders. We didn't. Nobody did. Turns out that
folks just don't think it's a good idea to manufacture or conceal evidence, or to
kill citizens in the name of big government. Sorry to disappoint you people, but
we were paying attention when you murdered those kids at Waco. We know you
have assassins on the payroll – and we want to see the Lon Horiuchis of this
world ride the lighting. Besides, the whole concept of federal cops is
un-constitutional anyway – why on earth would we want them to be efficient? We
want them gone. They want us to hate Timothy McVeigh and isn't it hilarious how
all of a sudden the left loves the death penalty? I suppose the one crime worthy of
death is an attack on the government – at least in their minds. Yet a lot of us are
wondering just why Janet Reno is not getting a shot of that bad medicine right
along with ole Tim. Murder is murder, right?

"Wrong. Several men were murdered by government due to the incompetence of a
"black female" affirmative action type who couldn't tell a DNA strand from a
piece of pasta. But so what, eh? Government met it's affirmative action quotas
and all is well that ends well. I guess they expected we'd tolerate that too, but
nope – this mistress of death is in a heap of trouble. It's too much to hope for that
they might give her a jolt as well but at least her career and reputation are in a
shambles and that is something. We just aren't taking it any more folks.
Government functionaries are horrified – "You mean I can get fired just for not
being competent in my position – just for killing a citizen?!" Pretty scary isn't it.
Soon they will have to find real jobs. Not that private industry will benefit by any
new glut of unemployed feds – government has always been a safety valve for us
– it was a place where lames could go and find work while we hired the
competent folks. Well – it will sure cut down on immigration when we put those
bozos out there in the fields where they belong. Are you listening President Bush?
You and Pop would both be right at your level grabbing cabbages – as opposed
to grabbing my money!"

PragmaticTwo contenders#558206/10/01; 18:58:07

The "other forum" had a good post today that said in essence that there are only two contenders, gold and the U.S. $! That has been my contention for months. The winner will be gold but the interim may be frustrating. The $ will be stopped by international intervention to include the U.S. fed but not before $130. And it will be the cb's concerted timed and focused intervention to stop a runaway $ that will turn the reins over to gold. The fat will be in the in the fire and there will be no where else to turn to.

I still contend that the forces are with the $ and it is the medium to watch for our timing purposes.

Goldenaussie posted he remains suspicious of this gold spike but content that the low is in.. if I read him correctly. He has been very good with calls.. I respect his stuff.

Gee, new to forum and remain in awe of the epic posters here FOA, ORO.. on and on. But I am of the opinion that Blackblade is the legend of the forum. Where does he get the time to do all that work.. for free!! I have gained more from his postings in the last two years than all my other sources combined. Makes one very curious about him.
I believe he feels a compulsion, a mission.

Stocks, Lies, and Ticker TapeET @ Micheal Peirce#558216/10/01; 19:24:40

Cavan ManIt's getting dark on the gold trail.#558226/10/01; 19:35:39

1. Comex defaults.
1A. Comex contracts settled in Euro.
2. POG plummets.
2A. Gold shares crash.
3. Euro settles oil (unknown percentage).
4. Dollar goes into hyperinflation.
4A. Euro becomes next world reserve currency.
5. US markets crash and economy tanks.
6. All heck breaks loose.
7. Physical POG rises many fold (somewhere).

Well, now that we all know and, I'm quite certain that the US government knows; what are we waiting for? What was Francis Bacon heard to say before he lost his head; "Strike man strike!" Let's get the show on the road if we are talking about inevitability.

If all of the above comes to pass, thanks for the heads up.

sector@Netking About GoldGate and IRD's#558236/10/01; 20:31:18

Keep your eyes peeled over at soon for the full article.


SHIFTYPeriodic Ponzi Update PPU#558246/10/01; 20:41:16

Nasdaq 2,215.1 + Dow 10,977.0 = 13,192.10 divide by 2 = 6,596.05 Ponzi

up 26.13 from last week.

Thank you Sir RossL for the link :-)

This could be an inte